Hi there

I would really appreciate help with this.

The thermostat for the downstairs heating in our house has never worked, so
I took a look at it today. There are 3 wires going to it: green/yellow,
blue and brown.

The thermostat is a Drayton RTS1, which has 4 terminals: Neutral, Live, 3
(Call for heat) and Earth.

Currently, the wiring goes: Brown to Live, Blue to Neutral, and Green/Yellow
to Earth.

This leaves nothing going to the 3 (Call for heat), which I guess is why the
thermostat isn't working!

I'm guessing that one of the following is the case:
1) the green/yellow wire may actually be the 3 (Call for heat)
2) the green/yellow is actually neutral, and the blue is the 3 (call for
heat)
but I need to know how to check this without fusing the system! Also this
would leave no earth - is this likely?

I've got a digi multimeter, and there's 230 Volts coming down the brown
(when checked against either the blue or the green/yellow), so that's in
right, but how do I find out how to rewire the other two?

Many thanks for any suggestions.
xena

In article ,
xena wrote:
This leaves nothing going to the 3 (Call for heat), which I guess is why
the thermostat isn't working!

I'm guessing that one of the following is the case: 1) the green/yellow
wire may actually be the 3 (Call for heat) 2) the green/yellow is
actually neutral, and the blue is the 3 (call for heat) but I need to
know how to check this without fusing the system! Also this would
leave no earth - is this likely?

Using an earth as a 'live' is all too common a bodge where plumbers get
involved in wiring. And some DIY types too, who should know better.

You've got a couple of options.

Do the job properly, and replace the cable with a Triple and Earth. The
earth is probably not needed, but you do need three properly insulated and
identified wires for this type of stat to operate correctly.

Wire the stat without the accelerator coil. Then you'll only need two
wires. But it won't be as accurate.

Replace the stat with a programmable one. These are battery operated and
only need two wires. They'll soon save their cost in reduced fuel bills.

Either way, it looks like you'll have to delve inside the connections at
the boiler end to sort out this bodged wiring.

--
*If all the world is a stage, where is the audience sitting?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
xena wrote:

Hi there

I would really appreciate help with this.

The thermostat for the downstairs heating in our house has never
worked, so I took a look at it today. There are 3 wires going to it:
green/yellow, blue and brown.

Does that mean that the heating doesn't work either - or has the stat been
by-passed in some way?


The thermostat is a Drayton RTS1, which has 4 terminals: Neutral,
Live, 3 (Call for heat) and Earth.

Currently, the wiring goes: Brown to Live, Blue to Neutral, and
Green/Yellow to Earth.

This leaves nothing going to the 3 (Call for heat), which I guess is
why the thermostat isn't working!

Sounds pretty likely!

I'm guessing that one of the following is the case:
1) the green/yellow wire may actually be the 3 (Call for heat)
2) the green/yellow is actually neutral, and the blue is the 3 (call
for heat)
but I need to know how to check this without fusing the system! Also
this would leave no earth - is this likely?

I've got a digi multimeter, and there's 230 Volts coming down the
brown (when checked against either the blue or the green/yellow), so
that's in right, but how do I find out how to rewire the other two?

Many thanks for any suggestions.
xena

The type of stat which you have *needs* 4 wires, and can't safely be
installed with 3. A common short-cut employed by some plumbers is to use the
green/yellow wire for the switched live (which you refer to as the "call to
heat"). This is unsafe for two reasons. Firstly the stat needs to be eathed,
but isn't when this is done. Secondly, a wire which any reasonable person
would expect to be earthed is, in fact, live!

If you want to do this properly, you have 3 choices:
1) replace the 3-core cable with 4-core
2) run a seperate 4th wire from the stat to whatever it connects to
(possibly a junction box in the airing cupboard)
3) replace the stat with one which needs less wires. For example, modern
electronic programmable stats only need *two* wires - since they don't need
to be earthed and they don't have a built in accelerator heater needing a
neutral return.

In order to find out exactly how yours is wired, you need to find the other
end of the cable, and see what each of the cores is connected to. If you can
identify the type of system you have in terms of one of the "plans" shown in
http://content.honeywell.com/uk/homes/systems.htm you can look at your stat
connections with reference to the appropriate wiring diagram.
--
Cheers,
Set Square
______
Please reply to newsgroup. Reply address is invalid.

In article ,
Set Square wrote:
The type of stat which you have *needs* 4 wires, and can't safely be
installed with 3. A common short-cut employed by some plumbers is to use
the green/yellow wire for the switched live (which you refer to as the
"call to heat").

The laugh is that if you used it for the neutral there would be less
chance of getting a belt off it.

--
*In some places, C:\ is the root of all directories *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Set Square" wrote in message
...
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
xena wrote:

Hi there

I would really appreciate help with this.

The thermostat for the downstairs heating in our house has never
worked, so I took a look at it today. There are 3 wires going to it:
green/yellow, blue and brown.

Does that mean that the heating doesn't work either - or has the stat been
by-passed in some way?


The heating does actually work. As long as the face plate of the thermostat
is on, the heating works. If it's taken off, then it doesn't.
I don't know why that's the case! The only thing I can think of is that
maybe one of the wires is a "satisfied" wire rather than "call to heat"
hence why it always thinks the heating should be on?


The thermostat is a Drayton RTS1, which has 4 terminals: Neutral,
Live, 3 (Call for heat) and Earth.

Currently, the wiring goes: Brown to Live, Blue to Neutral, and
Green/Yellow to Earth.

This leaves nothing going to the 3 (Call for heat), which I guess is
why the thermostat isn't working!

Sounds pretty likely!

I'm guessing that one of the following is the case:
1) the green/yellow wire may actually be the 3 (Call for heat)
2) the green/yellow is actually neutral, and the blue is the 3 (call
for heat)
but I need to know how to check this without fusing the system! Also
this would leave no earth - is this likely?

I've got a digi multimeter, and there's 230 Volts coming down the
brown (when checked against either the blue or the green/yellow), so
that's in right, but how do I find out how to rewire the other two?

Many thanks for any suggestions.
xena

The type of stat which you have *needs* 4 wires, and can't safely be
installed with 3. A common short-cut employed by some plumbers is to use
the
green/yellow wire for the switched live (which you refer to as the "call
to
heat"). This is unsafe for two reasons. Firstly the stat needs to be
eathed,
but isn't when this is done. Secondly, a wire which any reasonable person
would expect to be earthed is, in fact, live!

If you want to do this properly, you have 3 choices:
1) replace the 3-core cable with 4-core
2) run a seperate 4th wire from the stat to whatever it connects to
(possibly a junction box in the airing cupboard)
3) replace the stat with one which needs less wires. For example, modern
electronic programmable stats only need *two* wires - since they don't
need
to be earthed and they don't have a built in accelerator heater needing a
neutral return.


Um, of all the above options, I prefer number 3! I think the RTS7 works
with 2 wires, so maybe I'll get that.

In order to find out exactly how yours is wired, you need to find the
other
end of the cable, and see what each of the cores is connected to. If you
can
identify the type of system you have in terms of one of the "plans" shown
in
http://content.honeywell.com/uk/homes/systems.htm you can look at your
stat
connections with reference to the appropriate wiring diagram.

Cheers, I'll have a look at that now.

Many thanks for your help, Set Square )
I'll post back with how I get on.

"xena" wrote in message
...

"Set Square" wrote in message
...
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
xena wrote:


Does that mean that the heating doesn't work either - or has the stat
been
by-passed in some way?

The heating does actually work. As long as the face plate of the
thermostat is on, the heating works. If it's taken off, then it doesn't.
I don't know why that's the case! The only thing I can think of is that
maybe one of the wires is a "satisfied" wire rather than "call to heat"
hence why it always thinks the heating should be on?

Um, how significant is the fact that the heating is on?? Does it mean that
I need a weird reversed thermostat?!

The type of stat which you have *needs* 4 wires, and can't safely be
installed with 3. A common short-cut employed by some plumbers is to use
the
green/yellow wire for the switched live (which you refer to as the "call
to
heat"). This is unsafe for two reasons. Firstly the stat needs to be
eathed,
but isn't when this is done. Secondly, a wire which any reasonable person
would expect to be earthed is, in fact, live!

TBH, the thermostat is plastic cased, and if I sleeve the wires with the
correct colours, would this be so bad? After all, the rest of the wiring is
likely to be to the same standard and I'm not replacing the lot as the house
is for sale!


If you want to do this properly, you have 3 choices:
1) replace the 3-core cable with 4-core
2) run a seperate 4th wire from the stat to whatever it connects to
(possibly a junction box in the airing cupboard)
3) replace the stat with one which needs less wires. For example, modern
electronic programmable stats only need *two* wires - since they don't
need
to be earthed and they don't have a built in accelerator heater needing a
neutral return.


Um, of all the above options, I prefer number 3! I think the RTS7 works
with 2 wires, so maybe I'll get that.

Is this still an option if, as it looks like, my wiring seems to be
"reversed" (i.e. it's constantly on even when the wires aren't connected, or
is this normal?

In order to find out exactly how yours is wired, you need to find the
other
end of the cable, and see what each of the cores is connected to. If you
can
identify the type of system you have in terms of one of the "plans" shown
in
http://content.honeywell.com/uk/homes/systems.htm you can look at your
stat
connections with reference to the appropriate wiring diagram.

I've looked upstairs, and our heating/plumbing system is a nightmare! We
have two circuits, one for the downstairs heating, and one for the upstairs.
There are wires everywhere, and nothing is labelled. The only thing I found
which might be of any use is "EARTH = N" written on the plasterboard behind
the connection to the upstairs thermostat.

Cheers
xena

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
xena wrote:

Hi Dave
Thanks for your reply.

You've got a couple of options.

Do the job properly, and replace the cable with a Triple and Earth. The
earth is probably not needed, but you do need three properly insulated and
identified wires for this type of stat to operate correctly.

This isn't an option, I'm afraid. It would mean too much disturbance and
the house is currently up for sale! Besides, I'm not smart enough to do it
and I can't afford to pay anyone else to do it.

Wire the stat without the accelerator coil. Then you'll only need two
wires. But it won't be as accurate.

Not sure what this is to be honest - is this the neutral connection?

Replace the stat with a programmable one. These are battery operated and
only need two wires. They'll soon save their cost in reduced fuel bills.

Don't mind doing this - please see my other post for more info.

Very grateful thanks )

"xena" wrote in message
...
Hi there

I would really appreciate help with this.

The thermostat for the downstairs heating in our house has never worked,
so
I took a look at it today. There are 3 wires going to it: green/yellow,
blue and brown.

The thermostat is a Drayton RTS1, which has 4 terminals: Neutral, Live, 3
(Call for heat) and Earth.

Currently, the wiring goes: Brown to Live, Blue to Neutral, and
Green/Yellow
to Earth.

This leaves nothing going to the 3 (Call for heat), which I guess is why
the
thermostat isn't working!

I'm guessing that one of the following is the case:
1) the green/yellow wire may actually be the 3 (Call for heat)
2) the green/yellow is actually neutral, and the blue is the 3 (call for
heat)
but I need to know how to check this without fusing the system! Also this
would leave no earth - is this likely?

I've got a digi multimeter, and there's 230 Volts coming down the brown
(when checked against either the blue or the green/yellow), so that's in
right, but how do I find out how to rewire the other two?

Many thanks for any suggestions.
xena



I recently installed one of these on to my heating system. I'll see if I can
find the instructions for the thermostat if that's any use to you?

L Reid

"Set Square" wrote in message
...

The type of stat which you have *needs* 4 wires, and can't safely be
installed with 3. A common short-cut employed by some plumbers is to use
the
green/yellow wire for the switched live (which you refer to as the "call
to
heat"). This is unsafe for two reasons. Firstly the stat needs to be
eathed,
but isn't when this is done. Secondly, a wire which any reasonable person
would expect to be earthed is, in fact, live!

The RTS 1 is double insulated and does not need earthed.

L Reid

"xena" wrote in message
...

"xena" wrote in message
...

"Set Square" wrote in message
...
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
xena wrote:


Does that mean that the heating doesn't work either - or has the stat
been
by-passed in some way?


The heating does actually work. As long as the face plate of the
thermostat is on, the heating works. If it's taken off, then it doesn't.
I don't know why that's the case! The only thing I can think of is that
maybe one of the wires is a "satisfied" wire rather than "call to heat"
hence why it always thinks the heating should be on?

The RTS1 is an electronic stat and requires a neutral to work. I'm not sure
whether the relay is actually normally closed so if the neutral is not
there, it never switches off.

Are you sure that the blue is in the neutral and not the switched live
terminal?

It's possible that if the blue wire is in the neutral terminal, and it is
really the switched live that the stat is in series with the pump but I
would expect the resistance of the stat electronics to be too high for that
to work.

What wires are in what terminal numbers?


Um, how significant is the fact that the heating is on?? Does it mean
that I need a weird reversed thermostat?!

No, the fact that the heating stops when the stat is removed from the
backplate means that the wire is call for heat.


The type of stat which you have *needs* 4 wires, and can't safely be
installed with 3. A common short-cut employed by some plumbers is to use
the
green/yellow wire for the switched live (which you refer to as the "call
to
heat"). This is unsafe for two reasons. Firstly the stat needs to be
eathed,
but isn't when this is done. Secondly, a wire which any reasonable
person
would expect to be earthed is, in fact, live!

TBH, the thermostat is plastic cased, and if I sleeve the wires with the
correct colours, would this be so bad? After all, the rest of the wiring
is likely to be to the same standard and I'm not replacing the lot as the
house is for sale!

I'm pretty sure the RTS1 is double insulated so you "could" do this, It's
bad practice though.



If you want to do this properly, you have 3 choices:
1) replace the 3-core cable with 4-core
2) run a seperate 4th wire from the stat to whatever it connects to
(possibly a junction box in the airing cupboard)
3) replace the stat with one which needs less wires. For example, modern
electronic programmable stats only need *two* wires - since they don't
need
to be earthed and they don't have a built in accelerator heater needing
a
neutral return.


Um, of all the above options, I prefer number 3! I think the RTS7 works
with 2 wires, so maybe I'll get that.

Drayton Digistat does not need a neutral (it has a battery) and will fit on
the same backplate.


Is this still an option if, as it looks like, my wiring seems to be
"reversed" (i.e. it's constantly on even when the wires aren't connected,
or is this normal?

In order to find out exactly how yours is wired, you need to find the
other
end of the cable, and see what each of the cores is connected to. If you
can
identify the type of system you have in terms of one of the "plans"
shown in
http://content.honeywell.com/uk/homes/systems.htm you can look at your
stat
connections with reference to the appropriate wiring diagram.

I've looked upstairs, and our heating/plumbing system is a nightmare! We
have two circuits, one for the downstairs heating, and one for the
upstairs. There are wires everywhere, and nothing is labelled. The only
thing I found which might be of any use is "EARTH = N" written on the
plasterboard behind the connection to the upstairs thermostat.

Cheers
xena

"xena" wrote in message
...
Hi there

I would really appreciate help with this.

The thermostat for the downstairs heating in our house has never worked,
so
I took a look at it today. There are 3 wires going to it: green/yellow,
blue and brown.

The thermostat is a Drayton RTS1, which has 4 terminals: Neutral, Live, 3
(Call for heat) and Earth.

Currently, the wiring goes: Brown to Live, Blue to Neutral, and
Green/Yellow
to Earth.

This leaves nothing going to the 3 (Call for heat), which I guess is why
the
thermostat isn't working!

I'm guessing that one of the following is the case:
1) the green/yellow wire may actually be the 3 (Call for heat)
2) the green/yellow is actually neutral, and the blue is the 3 (call for
heat)
but I need to know how to check this without fusing the system! Also this
would leave no earth - is this likely?

I've got a digi multimeter, and there's 230 Volts coming down the brown
(when checked against either the blue or the green/yellow), so that's in
right, but how do I find out how to rewire the other two?

Many thanks for any suggestions.
xena



Ok, in addition to the green/yellow, is there a separate earth?
Alternatively, is the green / yellow fully sleeved, or is it the earth of
twin & earth (i.e. a bare wire with a yellow sleeve over a small part of
it)? Also, do you know what model of programmer/timer that you have? It may
be that you might have to take the casing off of that to confirm the wiring.

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
L Reid wrote:

"Set Square" wrote in message
...

The type of stat which you have *needs* 4 wires, and can't safely be
installed with 3. A common short-cut employed by some plumbers is to
use the green/yellow wire for the switched live (which you refer to
as the "call to heat"). This is unsafe for two reasons. Firstly the
stat needs to be eathed, but isn't when this is done. Secondly, a
wire which any reasonable person would expect to be earthed is, in
fact, live!

The RTS 1 is double insulated and does not need earthed.

L Reid

Fair enough, if you have a manual, and it *says* that. But the OP did say
that it had an earth terminal.

My old Danfos stat (which I've now replaced) sounds fairly similar from the
description, and had a notice inside saying "This device MUST be earthed" or
somesuch.
--
Cheers,
Set Square
______
Please reply to newsgroup. Reply address is invalid.

"Set Square" wrote in message
...
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
L Reid wrote:

"Set Square" wrote in message
...

The type of stat which you have *needs* 4 wires, and can't safely be
installed with 3. A common short-cut employed by some plumbers is to
use the green/yellow wire for the switched live (which you refer to
as the "call to heat"). This is unsafe for two reasons. Firstly the
stat needs to be eathed, but isn't when this is done. Secondly, a
wire which any reasonable person would expect to be earthed is, in
fact, live!

The RTS 1 is double insulated and does not need earthed.

L Reid

Fair enough, if you have a manual, and it *says* that. But the OP did say
that it had an earth terminal.

My old Danfos stat (which I've now replaced) sounds fairly similar from
the
description, and had a notice inside saying "This device MUST be earthed"
or
somesuch.
--
Cheers,
Set Square

I think the earth terminal is provided to give you something to attach any
previous earth wire if changing from a metal cased unit to this one (so you
don't have a bare wire you don't know what to do with in the case). It does
definately say that the RTS1 is double insulated on the instructions.

"TW" wrote in message
...

The RTS1 is an electronic stat and requires a neutral to work. I'm not
sure
whether the relay is actually normally closed so if the neutral is not
there, it never switches off.


I've had a look over my copy of the instructions, and there's an "important
note" which reads:

"RTS thermostats are ELECTRONIC with a relay output. Unless connected to a
230V mains supply, the relay will not operate, no 'click' will be heard and
the call for heat contact will remain open"

Can you hear the thermostat 'click' when you turn it?

"TW" wrote in message
...

"xena" wrote in message
...

"xena" wrote in message
...

"Set Square" wrote in message
...
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
xena wrote:


The RTS1 is an electronic stat and requires a neutral to work. I'm not
sure whether the relay is actually normally closed so if the neutral is
not there, it never switches off.

Are you sure that the blue is in the neutral and not the switched live
terminal?

Blue is definitely in neutral. There is nowt in the switched live.

It's possible that if the blue wire is in the neutral terminal, and it is
really the switched live that the stat is in series with the pump but I
would expect the resistance of the stat electronics to be too high for
that to work.

What wires are in what terminal numbers?

There is only one numbered terminal, that 3 (call for heat). There's
nothing in there.

Um, how significant is the fact that the heating is on?? Does it mean
that I need a weird reversed thermostat?!

No, the fact that the heating stops when the stat is removed from the
backplate means that the wire is call for heat.


The type of stat which you have *needs* 4 wires, and can't safely be
installed with 3. A common short-cut employed by some plumbers is to
use the
green/yellow wire for the switched live (which you refer to as the
"call to
heat"). This is unsafe for two reasons. Firstly the stat needs to be
eathed,
but isn't when this is done. Secondly, a wire which any reasonable
person
would expect to be earthed is, in fact, live!

TBH, the thermostat is plastic cased, and if I sleeve the wires with the
correct colours, would this be so bad? After all, the rest of the wiring
is likely to be to the same standard and I'm not replacing the lot as the
house is for sale!

I'm pretty sure the RTS1 is double insulated so you "could" do this, It's
bad practice though.

Yes the instructions say that it is double insulated.


Drayton Digistat does not need a neutral (it has a battery) and will fit
on the same backplate.

"L Reid" wrote in message
k...
"TW" wrote in message
...

The RTS1 is an electronic stat and requires a neutral to work. I'm not
sure
whether the relay is actually normally closed so if the neutral is not
there, it never switches off.


I've had a look over my copy of the instructions, and there's an
"important
note" which reads:

"RTS thermostats are ELECTRONIC with a relay output. Unless connected to a
230V mains supply, the relay will not operate, no 'click' will be heard
and
the call for heat contact will remain open"

Can you hear the thermostat 'click' when you turn it?

Yes, as long as the heating is turned on, it does click.

"L Reid" wrote in message
k...
"xena" wrote in message
...


I recently installed one of these on to my heating system. I'll see if I
can
find the instructions for the thermostat if that's any use to you?

L Reid

Hi there

I have the instructions, just having difficulty understanding them!!

Cheers

"L Reid" wrote in message
k...
"xena" wrote in message
...
Hi there

I would really appreciate help with this.

The thermostat for the downstairs heating in our house has never worked,
so
I took a look at it today. There are 3 wires going to it: green/yellow,
blue and brown.

The thermostat is a Drayton RTS1, which has 4 terminals: Neutral, Live, 3
(Call for heat) and Earth.

Currently, the wiring goes: Brown to Live, Blue to Neutral, and
Green/Yellow
to Earth.

This leaves nothing going to the 3 (Call for heat), which I guess is why
the
thermostat isn't working!

I'm guessing that one of the following is the case:
1) the green/yellow wire may actually be the 3 (Call for heat)
2) the green/yellow is actually neutral, and the blue is the 3 (call for
heat)
but I need to know how to check this without fusing the system! Also
this
would leave no earth - is this likely?

I've got a digi multimeter, and there's 230 Volts coming down the brown
(when checked against either the blue or the green/yellow), so that's in
right, but how do I find out how to rewire the other two?

Many thanks for any suggestions.
xena



Ok, in addition to the green/yellow, is there a separate earth?
Alternatively, is the green / yellow fully sleeved, or is it the earth of
twin & earth (i.e. a bare wire with a yellow sleeve over a small part of
it)? Also, do you know what model of programmer/timer that you have? It
may
be that you might have to take the casing off of that to confirm the
wiring.



No, there is no separate earth.

The cable is bog standard 3-core flex, not twin and earth, so fully sleeved.

The programmer is a Horstmann Channel Plus H37.

Thoughts at the moment are that the brown wire is in the right place (live).
The green/yellow is the neutral
The blue is the switched live (call for heat)

Does anyone know of any multimeter checks I can do to verify this?

And thank you everyone *so* much for your help!! It's the first time I've
posted on here, and the response has been amazing )

Thanks you all
xena

"TW" wrote in message
...

"xena" wrote in message
...

"xena" wrote in message
...

"Set Square" wrote in message
...
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
xena wrote:


Does that mean that the heating doesn't work either - or has the stat
been
by-passed in some way?


The heating does actually work. As long as the face plate of the
thermostat is on, the heating works. If it's taken off, then it
doesn't.
I don't know why that's the case! The only thing I can think of is that
maybe one of the wires is a "satisfied" wire rather than "call to heat"
hence why it always thinks the heating should be on?

The RTS1 is an electronic stat and requires a neutral to work. I'm not
sure whether the relay is actually normally closed so if the neutral is
not there, it never switches off.

I've found a PDF of the RTS1 here with a diagram that shows that it is
normally open.
http://www.climate-eu.invensys.com/U...hermostats.pdf

Cheers
xena

"xena" wrote
| No, there is no separate earth.
| The cable is bog standard 3-core flex, not twin and earth, so fully
sleeved.

This fails electrical safety standards on one, if not two, counts.

(1) Flex should not be used for fixed wiring. For some reason it often is by
people who call themselves Heating Engineers but whom I wouldn't trust to
wire up a rabbit snare.

(2) Whether or not the thermostat is double-insulated, all circuit cables
must have an earth (circuit protective conductor) running within or parallel
to them and an earth must be present at all accessory points.

As the house is up for sale it is possible that this would be flagged by a
surveyor and your overall electrical installation queried.

Possibly the best course of action would be to find the other end of this
flex (hopefully a 'wiring centre' near the boiler, in the airing cupboard,
etc), remove the flex and replace with a wireless thermostat.

Owain

In article ,
Owain wrote:
Flex should not be used for fixed wiring. For some reason it often is by
people who call themselves Heating Engineers but whom I wouldn't trust to
wire up a rabbit snare.

Means they only need one drum of cable at a time? At least this is what I
was told by one doing exactly this. When saying it wasn't exactly the
correct way, he said as far as he was concerned if it worked that was
fine. And subsequently became CORGI registered. ;-)

--
*When you've seen one shopping centre you've seen a mall.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"xena" wrote in message
...
Hi there

I would really appreciate help with this.

The thermostat for the downstairs heating in our house has never worked,
so I took a look at it today. There are 3 wires going to it:
green/yellow, blue and brown.

The thermostat is a Drayton RTS1, which has 4 terminals: Neutral, Live, 3
(Call for heat) and Earth.

Currently, the wiring goes: Brown to Live, Blue to Neutral, and
Green/Yellow to Earth.

This leaves nothing going to the 3 (Call for heat), which I guess is why
the thermostat isn't working!

I'm guessing that one of the following is the case:
1) the green/yellow wire may actually be the 3 (Call for heat)
2) the green/yellow is actually neutral, and the blue is the 3 (call for
heat)
but I need to know how to check this without fusing the system! Also this
would leave no earth - is this likely?

I've got a digi multimeter, and there's 230 Volts coming down the brown
(when checked against either the blue or the green/yellow), so that's in
right, but how do I find out how to rewire the other two?

Ok, a bit more information. I've found the cable that goes from the
thermostat downstairs to the heating system upstairs, and posted a pic he
http://www.ukosborne.co.uk/images/wiring.jpg
with the relevant bits labelled up.

Many people have said that if, as suspected, my green/yellow is not actually
an earth, then the system should be rewired. I'd rather not do that if
poss, although now I've found the cable, I wouldn't rule it out. The
spaghetti in the above pic shows what a nightmare it would be wiring it in
though. Also, personally, I'm not too concerned about the lack of earth as
the thermostat explicitly states that it is double insulated and no earth is
required.

Other suggestions are that I use a two-wire thermostat. That doesn't help
me at the moment as I don't know which wires are which!! I don't know if my
green/yellow is actually earth, or maybe a neutral in which case the
thermostat I have is fine.

What I really want to do now, is to explicitly establish what my blue and
green/yellow wires are.
Possibilities for the blue:
1) It's a neutral
2) It's a switched live (call for heat)

Possibilities for the green/yellow:
1) It's an earth
2) It's a neutral
3) It's a switched live (call for heat)

I have a multimeter if that helps?!

The fact that the heating won't come on if the thermostat faceplate isn't
attached may give a clue as to which wire is which, but I can't decipher it!

I've found a PDF of the RTS1 here with a diagram that shows that it is
normally open.
http://www.climate-eu.invensys.com/i... &CAT3=CATIT55
or
http://makeashorterlink.com/?V2D8258C9

I'm looking at the latest release on that page, 11/02. My thermostat is Fig
1, RTS1.
Just to recap, currently, my green/yellow is going to the optional earthing
point on the stat, my brown to live, my blue to neutral, and nothing to 3
(call for heat), hence why the stat doesn't work, and my heating is on all
the time!

Thanks to everyone for their continuing help, hopefully we're almost there
now.

Cheers
xena

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
xena wrote:


Ok, a bit more information. I've found the cable that goes from the
thermostat downstairs to the heating system upstairs, and posted a
pic he http://www.ukosborne.co.uk/images/wiring.jpg
with the relevant bits labelled up.

What a nightmare! Do all the wires going into each white block join together
inside? If so, God knows what they have done - you have a very colourful
mixture!


I've found a PDF of the RTS1 here with a diagram that shows that it is
normally open.
http://makeashorterlink.com/?V2D8258C9

The switch is shown open on the diagram. That doesn't necessarily mean that
it's normally open - it's probably drawn in the "satisfied" position to make
it clearer where the switch is. You said there was nothing connected to 3
anyway.

You or somebody said that this stat contains a relay. I have a hunch or
theory - which may be rubbish - but may be worth checking out. Is the stat
*supposed* to turn on a zone valve which - in turn - turns on the boiler and
pump (as per S-Plan in the Honeywell document)? If so, and if there's a
relay coil between L & N in the stat, the relay coil may be (incorrectly!)
wired in series with the zone valve motor - which may *just* provide enough
current to motor the valve to the open position. When you remove the stat
from its baseplate, you would break this link, and the zone valve would
shut. Can you get someone to stand by the zone valve when you plug the stat
in to see whether it does anything? Which cable(s) in your junction box go
to the downstairs zone valve, and what are they connected to?
--
Cheers,
Set Square
______
Please reply to newsgroup. Reply address is invalid.

On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 10:44:50 -0000, "Set Square"
strung together this:

You or somebody said that this stat contains a relay. I have a hunch or
theory - which may be rubbish - but may be worth checking out.

Sounds a good one to me.
Looking at the wiring it seems that the g\y is an earth, and that the
brown and blue are a live feed and switch wire. To be somewhere near
being within the regs I'd get a programmable stat which will be
battery operated with volt free contacts. Then you can connect the
blue and brown across these contacts.
The only other alternative is bodging it together by using the g\y as
a neutral instead of an earth.
--

SJW
A.C.S. Ltd

"Lurch" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 10:44:50 -0000, "Set Square"
strung together this:

You or somebody said that this stat contains a relay. I have a hunch or
theory - which may be rubbish - but may be worth checking out.

Sounds a good one to me.
Looking at the wiring it seems that the g\y is an earth, and that the
brown and blue are a live feed and switch wire. To be somewhere near
being within the regs I'd get a programmable stat which will be
battery operated with volt free contacts. Then you can connect the
blue and brown across these contacts.
The only other alternative is bodging it together by using the g\y as
a neutral instead of an earth.
--

SJW
A.C.S. Ltd

Cheers SJW. I don't mind doing this at all, if I can be sure that the g/y
*is* an earth. What I didn't want to do was spend out on a new thermostat
if all the wires were already there, albeit the wrong colour.

"Set Square" wrote in message
...
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
xena wrote:


Ok, a bit more information. I've found the cable that goes from the
thermostat downstairs to the heating system upstairs, and posted a
pic he http://www.ukosborne.co.uk/images/wiring.jpg
with the relevant bits labelled up.

What a nightmare! Do all the wires going into each white block join
together
inside? If so, God knows what they have done - you have a very colourful
mixture!

Yes, the the wires inside each white block appear to be connected through
the bar inside the block.

You or somebody said that this stat contains a relay. I have a hunch or
theory - which may be rubbish - but may be worth checking out. Is the stat
*supposed* to turn on a zone valve which - in turn - turns on the boiler
and
pump (as per S-Plan in the Honeywell document)? If so, and if there's a
relay coil between L & N in the stat, the relay coil may be (incorrectly!)
wired in series with the zone valve motor - which may *just* provide
enough
current to motor the valve to the open position. When you remove the stat
from its baseplate, you would break this link, and the zone valve would
shut. Can you get someone to stand by the zone valve when you plug the
stat
in to see whether it does anything? Which cable(s) in your junction box go
to the downstairs zone valve, and what are they connected to?

Here's a pic of the system:
http://www.ukosborne.co.uk/images/system.jpg

Is the zone valve likely to be the silver box at the bottom of the pic
marked "Downstairs heating"?
I'm home alone til hubby comes home later, but we can try listening for
sounds then.

The wire from the silver box at the bottom of the pic marked "Downstairs
heating" is the first black wire in
http://www.ukosborne.co.uk/images/wiring.jpg
and has five colours coming out of it. If I'm going in the right direction,
let me know and I'll see exactly where the wires go.

Thankful, as ever!
xena

On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 12:26:44 -0000, "xena"
strung together this:

The wire from the silver box at the bottom of the pic marked "Downstairs
heating" is the first black wire in
http://www.ukosborne.co.uk/images/wiring.jpg
and has five colours coming out of it. If I'm going in the right direction,
let me know and I'll see exactly where the wires go.

Let me guess, Brown to blue(switchwire) of room stat. Blue to neutral.
Grey to live. Orange to boiler live and g\y to earth.
The boiler wire is 3rd from the left.
It doesn't matter what you do with it, it's still wrong.
You've now got two options as to how to correct it, sort of, without
rewiring.
--

SJW
A.C.S. Ltd

"Lurch" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 12:26:44 -0000, "xena"
strung together this:

The wire from the silver box at the bottom of the pic marked "Downstairs
heating" is the first black wire in
http://www.ukosborne.co.uk/images/wiring.jpg
and has five colours coming out of it. If I'm going in the right
direction,
let me know and I'll see exactly where the wires go.

Let me guess, Brown to blue(switchwire) of room stat. Blue to neutral.
Grey to live. Orange to boiler live and g\y to earth.
The boiler wire is 3rd from the left.
It doesn't matter what you do with it, it's still wrong.
You've now got two options as to how to correct it, sort of, without
rewiring.

Spot on, nice one!!! Cool, happy now. That means that I'm definite that
the g/y is earth, and the blue is switched live. Which means I can get the
RTS7 (two wire application) and actually know how to wire it! I've seen
them on the net for about 15 quid, so that's not bad. Or, like you said, a
programmable thermostat, though I'm not sure what one of those is. Gonna
look it up now.

Was tempted to swap the g/y from earth to the neutral where the wire from
the silver box goes, but would prolly blow system up.

Many, many thanks for all your help :-)
xena

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
xena wrote:


Here's a pic of the system:
http://www.ukosborne.co.uk/images/system.jpg

Is the zone valve likely to be the silver box at the bottom of the pic
marked "Downstairs heating"?

Yes - that's the zone valve.

[The other silver one is for the upstairs heating and the white one for the
hot water. You have an S-Plan-Plus system. The downstairs zone valve is
driven - or should be! - by the downstairs stat, the upstairs valve by the
upstairs stat, and the HW zone valve by the tank stat. When any combination
of zone valves are open, the secondary contacts inside the valves switch on
the boiler and pump].

Does the upstairs stat work ok? Is it the same type of stat? If so, see how
that is wired and replicate it for the downstairs setup.

I'm home alone til hubby comes home later, but we can try listening
for sounds then.


Well worth doing - I think we may be getting somewhere.

The wire from the silver box at the bottom of the pic marked
"Downstairs heating" is the first black wire in
http://www.ukosborne.co.uk/images/wiring.jpg
and has five colours coming out of it. If I'm going in the right
direction, let me know and I'll see exactly where the wires go.

Definitely! I can't see where they go from the picture - you will need to
lift the wires to see where the ends go.

Can you also post the make and model of the zone valve. Hopefully we can
find an online wiring diagram for it. If it's like the one in
http://content.honeywell.com/uk/homes/systems.htm the motor is connected
between brown and blue, and the grey and orange wires switch the boiler and
pump on. In this case, the question is: does one of the wires from your stat
connect to the zone valve's brown wire? If so, which one?
--
Cheers,
Set Square
______
Please reply to newsgroup. Reply address is invalid.

"Lurch" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 10:44:50 -0000, "Set Square"
strung together this:

To be somewhere near
being within the regs I'd get a programmable stat which will be
battery operated with volt free contacts. Then you can connect the
blue and brown across these contacts.

Spotted the Drayton Digistat 2 that I want on eBay. New and sealed, and
hopefully cheaper than the £35 I've found so far on the web.

Oh, I'm so chuffed to have finally got this sorted at last!!!

On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 13:34:24 -0000, "xena"
strung together this:

Which means I can get the
RTS7 (two wire application) and actually know how to wire it!

Probably the cheapest and easiest option.

Or, like you said, a
programmable thermostat, though I'm not sure what one of those is. Gonna
look it up now.

How's this for a start,
http://content.honeywell.com/uk/homes/programm.htm

Was tempted to swap the g/y from earth to the neutral where the wire from
the silver box goes, but would prolly blow system up.

Hmm, technically known as a bodge, but so is wiring it all in 3 core
flex so it wouldn't make it any worse!
--

SJW
A.C.S. Ltd

"Set Square" wrote in message
...
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
xena wrote:


Here's a pic of the system:
http://www.ukosborne.co.uk/images/system.jpg

Is the zone valve likely to be the silver box at the bottom of the pic
marked "Downstairs heating"?

Yes - that's the zone valve.

[The other silver one is for the upstairs heating and the white one for
the
hot water. You have an S-Plan-Plus system. The downstairs zone valve is
driven - or should be! - by the downstairs stat, the upstairs valve by the
upstairs stat, and the HW zone valve by the tank stat. When any
combination
of zone valves are open, the secondary contacts inside the valves switch
on
the boiler and pump].

Does the upstairs stat work ok? Is it the same type of stat? If so, see
how
that is wired and replicate it for the downstairs setup.

I'm home alone til hubby comes home later, but we can try listening
for sounds then.


Well worth doing - I think we may be getting somewhere.

The wire from the silver box at the bottom of the pic marked
"Downstairs heating" is the first black wire in
http://www.ukosborne.co.uk/images/wiring.jpg
and has five colours coming out of it. If I'm going in the right
direction, let me know and I'll see exactly where the wires go.

Definitely! I can't see where they go from the picture - you will need to
lift the wires to see where the ends go.

Can you also post the make and model of the zone valve. Hopefully we can
find an online wiring diagram for it. If it's like the one in
http://content.honeywell.com/uk/homes/systems.htm the motor is connected
between brown and blue, and the grey and orange wires switch the boiler
and
pump on. In this case, the question is: does one of the wires from your
stat
connect to the zone valve's brown wire? If so, which one?

Hi Set Square

Think we're sorted now - see other post. I'm gonna get the Drayton Digistat
2, and all will be well.

Thanks for explaining the heating system - I'm gonna take a print of the
S-Plan-Plus system and leave it for the next owners!!

You're brilliant, thank you so much!

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
xena wrote:

Or, like you said, a programmable thermostat, though I'm not sure
what one of those is. Gonna look it up now.

A programmable stat is a combined thermostat and time clock, which enables
you to programme it for different temperatures at different times of the
day. You would really need one for upstairs too, to be useful. You would
then leave the heating on the 'continuous' setting on your main timer, and
use the programmable stats to determine when it *actually* comes on and off.
You can set different time/temperature profiles for upstairs and
downstairs - which can sometimes be useful.

When you've finished all this, you'll have such a wonderful heating system
that you won't want to sell the house. g
--
Cheers,
Set Square
______
Please reply to newsgroup. Reply address is invalid.

In article ,
xena wrote:
Was tempted to swap the g/y from earth to the neutral where the wire
from the silver box goes, but would prolly blow system up.

Since it's flex with all the conductors insulated, I'd be inclined to
simply sleeve the earth at both ends with red. TW&E is a totally different
matter as the earth is bare.

I know it's not strictly correct, but the chances are there are more such
bodges elsewhere on the heating system.

This assumes the existing stat doesn't actually need an earth for safety
purposes - few do.

--
*Plagiarism saves time *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
xena wrote:
Was tempted to swap the g/y from earth to the neutral where the wire
from the silver box goes, but would prolly blow system up.

Since it's flex with all the conductors insulated, I'd be inclined to
simply sleeve the earth at both ends with red. TW&E is a totally different
matter as the earth is bare.

I know it's not strictly correct, but the chances are there are more such
bodges elsewhere on the heating system.

This assumes the existing stat doesn't actually need an earth for safety
purposes - few do.

Hi Dave

That's exactly what I've done, well, changed the wiring round a little, used
the earth as a neutral with black tape over the green/yellow, and the blue
as a switched live (with red tape).

I'm keeping an eye out for a programmable thermostat at a tidy price, and if
and when one comes up, I'll use that instead so that the system is kosher.

Nice to have a working thermostat at last!!

Cheers
xena

On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 18:42:33 -0000, "xena"
strung together this:

I'm keeping an eye out for a programmable thermostat at a tidy price, and if
and when one comes up, I'll use that instead so that the system is kosher.

I wouldn't bother, as it's all wired in flex it will never be kosher
without ripping it all out and starting again.
If it's all working as it is I'd be inclined to leave it. 'If it ain't
broke, don't fix it' sort of thing!
--

SJW
A.C.S. Ltd

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Lurch wrote:

On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 18:42:33 -0000, "xena"
strung together this:

I'm keeping an eye out for a programmable thermostat at a tidy
price, and if and when one comes up, I'll use that instead so that
the system is kosher.

I wouldn't bother, as it's all wired in flex it will never be kosher
without ripping it all out and starting again.
If it's all working as it is I'd be inclined to leave it. 'If it ain't
broke, don't fix it' sort of thing!

Also, as I said in an earlier post, with your S-Plan-Plus system you need
*two* programmable stats if you are to derive the full benefit from them.
The main time switch needs CH to be on the constant setting - with the
programmable stats doing the *actual* timing. You can't do that if one of
the stats isn't programmable.
--
Cheers,
Set Square
______
Please reply to newsgroup. Reply address is invalid.

"Set Square" wrote in message
...
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Lurch wrote:

On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 18:42:33 -0000, "xena"
strung together this:


Also, as I said in an earlier post, with your S-Plan-Plus system you need
*two* programmable stats if you are to derive the full benefit from them.
The main time switch needs CH to be on the constant setting - with the
programmable stats doing the *actual* timing. You can't do that if one of
the stats isn't programmable.

I'm not sure if that's true because the timer upstairs controls Upstairs
Heating and Downstairs Heating individually, as well as water. i.e. You can
program all 3 individually.

I'll likely leave just as it is now, as it's working perfectly and I've
sleeved the cables in their correct colour etc.

I would like to say though, how much I've learned from the people who have
posted here to help me, and for that I am very grateful.

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
xena wrote:

"Set Square" wrote in message
...

Also, as I said in an earlier post, with your S-Plan-Plus system you
need *two* programmable stats if you are to derive the full benefit
from them. The main time switch needs CH to be on the constant
setting - with the programmable stats doing the *actual* timing. You
can't do that if one of the stats isn't programmable.

I'm not sure if that's true because the timer upstairs controls
Upstairs Heating and Downstairs Heating individually, as well as
water. i.e. You can program all 3 individually.


No, if you have 3 independent channels on your programmer, you're right. I
was assuming that you couldn't control upstairs and downstairs separately -
apart from the stat setting.

--
Cheers,
Set Square
______
Please reply to newsgroup. Reply address is invalid.