Vegetarians have more favorable levels of a number of biomarkers
including cardiovascular-linked ones €” total cholesterol, low-density
lipoprotein (LDL) cholesterol, and apolipoprotein A and B €” than meat-eaters




Total cholesterol and LDL cholesterol concentrations for vegetarians
were 21% and 16.4% lower than in meat-eaters. But some biomarkers
considered beneficial €”including vitamin D concentrations €” were lower
in vegetarians, while some considered unhealthy €” including
triglycerides and cystatin-C levels €” were higher.



https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/950911





So, it looks like you are all right!

On 13/05/2021 16:48, GB wrote:

snip

Thanks - but I'd have quoted also:

'Asked to comment on the findings, John C. Mathers, PhD, noted that they
clearly confirm the importance of not reading any biomarker result in
isolation.

Health is complex and individual markers tell you just part of the
story," said Mathers, of the Human Nutrition Research Centre, Newcastle
University, UK.'

and especially:

'He says a vegetarian diet can be nourishing but cautioned that "just
because someone excludes meat from their diet does not mean necessarily
that they will be eating a healthy diet."'

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On Thu, 13 May 2021 16:57:46 +0100, Robin wrote:

On 13/05/2021 16:48, GB wrote:

snip

Thanks - but I'd have quoted also:

'Asked to comment on the findings, John C. Mathers, PhD, noted that they
clearly confirm the importance of not reading any biomarker result in
isolation.

Health is complex and individual markers tell you just part of the
story," said Mathers, of the Human Nutrition Research Centre, Newcastle
University, UK.'

and especially:

'He says a vegetarian diet can be nourishing but cautioned that "just
because someone excludes meat from their diet does not mean necessarily
that they will be eating a healthy diet."'

Of course not, and we all know we are supposed to cut down our meat
intake and increase our veg.

It's a funny thing, when I was previously eating all sorts of rubbish
but included (processed) meat, eggs and dairy (dairy till my doctor
advised against it), no one (here) seemed interested in my diet /
health. As soon as I started excluding the exploitation of animals
from my diet, everyone (well the trolls especially) suddenly became
concerned about my diet and my health, even though I was actually
eating better (less meat, more fruit and veg).

A year+ later, I've lost some weight, still feel as fit and don't have
the guilt of the animal exploitation hanging over my head that I now
realise has been there for a good few years now. ;-(

Cheers, T i m

On 13/05/2021 17:40, T i m wrote:


It's a funny thing, when I was previously eating all sorts of rubbish
but included (processed) meat, eggs and dairy (dairy till my doctor
advised against it), no one (here) seemed interested in my diet /
health. As soon as I started excluding the exploitation of animals
from my diet, everyone (well the trolls especially)

And OT posts about veganism isn't trolling?

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On Thu, 13 May 2021 20:58:36 +0100, alan_m
wrote:

On 13/05/2021 17:40, T i m wrote:


It's a funny thing, when I was previously eating all sorts of rubbish
but included (processed) meat, eggs and dairy (dairy till my doctor
advised against it), no one (here) seemed interested in my diet /
health. As soon as I started excluding the exploitation of animals
from my diet, everyone (well the trolls especially)

And OT posts about veganism isn't trolling?

I don't know (but it wasn't, it was about diets) I didn't start the
thread and so have done no more than you by commenting on it?

Or if you are talking about the OP not marking the thread OT and if so
I hope you are going to jump on all the other unmarked OT threads
posted here?

Or are you one of those who supports the unnecessary cruelty and
exploitation of animals by any chance, reading such things makes you
feel guilty and so the need to try to netkop?


Cheers, T i m

alan_m wrote:
On 13/05/2021 17:40, T i m wrote:


It's a funny thing, when I was previously eating all sorts of rubbish
but included (processed) meat, eggs and dairy (dairy till my doctor
advised against it), no one (here) seemed interested in my diet /
health. As soon as I started excluding the exploitation of animals
from my diet, everyone (well the trolls especially)

And OT posts about veganism isn't trolling?


Whilst T i ms posting about veganism are mind-bendingly boring and OT, in
his defence, he didnt start this particular thread.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

On 13 May 2021 21:31:50 GMT, Tim+ wrote:

alan_m wrote:
On 13/05/2021 17:40, T i m wrote:


It's a funny thing, when I was previously eating all sorts of rubbish
but included (processed) meat, eggs and dairy (dairy till my doctor
advised against it), no one (here) seemed interested in my diet /
health. As soon as I started excluding the exploitation of animals
from my diet, everyone (well the trolls especially)

And OT posts about veganism isn't trolling?


Whilst T i m’s posting about veganism are mind-bendingly boring

I guess that might depend on how soon the planet is affected and that
affects you?

and OT,

But *always* clearly marked as such when I start a thread.

in
his defence, he didn’t start this particular thread.

Hey, I get people are uncomfortable when they are asked to question
things they have probably been doing all their lives, still aren't
illegal (although that seems to be changing fast) and so can't see the
problem about it all now, but that's the point, it is a problem now
and for all of us and every day, more and more people confirm it's
unsustainable (our consumption of meat, eggs and dairy) and immoral.

So it's not just some trivial / diet / fad from a few hippies, it's a
global movement that primarily aims to get people consider the costs
and consequences of their lifestyle choices, as they relate in 2021,
not how they may have related thousands of years ago.

It's not about stopping you doing something, it's about making you
realise you shouldn't have been doing it in the first place.

If it really was ok, you should be able to suckle directly from a cow
and kids should be able to watch how their food comes about.

Daughter has attended several 'Oureach cubes' now (where people stand
in public places showing video footage of *standard* meat production
practices and engage people in conversation to raise awareness) and
nearly without exception, no one is 'happy' watching the footage,
things done to animals, every day, by the million that are *only*
being done because you are paying for it to be done.

Cheers, T i m

On Thursday, 13 May 2021 at 16:48:41 UTC+1, GB wrote:
Vegetarians have more favorable levels of a number of biomarkers
including cardiovascular-linked ones €” total cholesterol, low-density
lipoprotein (LDL) cholesterol, and apolipoprotein A and B €” than meat-eaters




Total cholesterol and LDL cholesterol concentrations for vegetarians
were 21% and 16.4% lower than in meat-eaters. But some biomarkers
considered beneficial €”including vitamin D concentrations €” were lower
in vegetarians, while some considered unhealthy €” including
triglycerides and cystatin-C levels €” were higher.



https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/950911





So, it looks like you are all right!

If my cholesterol were any lower, I'd be classed as hypocholesterolaemic! I eat butter, cheese, meat, fish, ...

I suspect that thyroid hormone levels are more closely associated with cholesterol levels than vegetarian/vegan/meat-eating.

On 13/05/2021 17:40, T i m wrote:
[i]
A year+ later, ...don't have
the guilt of the animal exploitation hanging over my head that I now
realise has been there for a good few years now. ;-(

But you should feel guilt on behalf of the rest of humanity, in the same
way as people who aren't racists are expected to feel guilt and 'take
the knee', and people who weren't alive in the 18th century are supposed
to feel guilty about slavery.

Bill

On Thursday, 13 May 2021 at 16:48:41 UTC+1, GB wrote:
Vegetarians have more favorable levels of a number of biomarkers
including cardiovascular-linked ones €” total cholesterol, low-density
lipoprotein (LDL) cholesterol, and apolipoprotein A and B €” than meat-eaters




Total cholesterol and LDL cholesterol concentrations for vegetarians
were 21% and 16.4% lower than in meat-eaters. But some biomarkers
considered beneficial €”including vitamin D concentrations €” were lower
in vegetarians, while some considered unhealthy €” including
triglycerides and cystatin-C levels €” were higher.



https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/950911





So, it looks like you are all right!

"Celis-Morales and his team are currently conducting a further analysis to understand if the vegetarian diet is also associated with a lower risk of cancer, depression, and dementia compared with meat-eaters."

Why the form of words "understand if ... lower risk ..." rather than "find out whether ... different risk ..."?

It looks like are wading in with the lower risk as an assumption. Or that if they found a higher risk, they'd ignore it!

Also, vitamin D is a difficult one these days. We have official advice to take a supplement so we can imagine a relatively high rate of so doing. But of those who do, many vegetarians/vegans might choose a vegetarian/vegan supplement. Until fairly recently, all vegetarian/vegan supplements were vitamin D2
which appear to be significantly less desirable than D3.

If those supplementation issues were not factored in, any results are likely questionable (at best).

On Thu, 13 May 2021 23:33:14 +0100, williamwright
wrote:
[i]
On 13/05/2021 17:40, T i m wrote:

A year+ later, ...don't have
the guilt of the animal exploitation hanging over my head that I now
realise has been there for a good few years now. ;-(

But you should feel guilt on behalf of the rest of humanity, in the same
way as people who aren't racists are expected to feel guilt and 'take
the knee', and people who weren't alive in the 18th century are supposed
to feel guilty about slavery.

Sorry Bill (just to save you some time / effort if you actually expect
a reply from me personally etc), you are now also on my Troll-Ignore
list as it's obvious 1) you have no interest / ability re considering
any alternative P'sOV and 2) (therefore) are trolling.

Cheers, T i m

On 13/05/2021 21:06, T i m wrote:
alan_m wrote:

On 13/05/2021 17:40, T i m wrote:

It's a funny thing, when I was previously eating all sorts of rubbish
but included (processed) meat, eggs and dairy (dairy till my doctor
advised against it), no one (here) seemed interested in my diet /
health. As soon as I started excluding the exploitation of animals
from my diet, everyone (well the trolls especially)

And OT posts about veganism isn't trolling?
I don't know (but it wasn't, it was about diets) I didn't start the
thread and so have done no more than you by commenting on it?

It was also about the caution that has to be applied to the
interpretation of a very limited set of markers indicating 'health' or
the suitability of a limited rather than a balanced diet, such as
claiming 'my B12 levels are fine' suggesting everything else is too.

Or if you are talking about the OP not marking the thread OT and if so
I hope you are going to jump on all the other unmarked OT threads
posted here?

Why do you persist in writing statements and then adding a question mark?

Or are you one of those who supports the unnecessary cruelty and
exploitation of animals by any chance, reading such things makes you
feel guilty and so the need to try to netkop?

Feeble.

--
Spike

On 13/05/2021 22:31, Tim+ wrote:

Whilst T i ms posting about veganism are mind-bendingly boring and OT, in
his defence, he didnt start this particular thread.

I apologise. I thought that some people might just want to have a look
at the link, which supports several of the apparently conflicting
viewpoints that have been expressed.

I should have labelled it OT, btw, but that was pretty obvious from the
title, anyway.

On Fri, 14 May 2021 10:31:48 +0100, GB
wrote:

On 13/05/2021 22:31, Tim+ wrote:

Whilst T i m’s posting about veganism are mind-bendingly boring and OT, in
his defence, he didn’t start this particular thread.

I apologise.

Why should you, many other don't seem to care when posting all sort of
OT bs?

I thought that some people might just want to have a look
at the link, which supports several of the apparently conflicting
viewpoints that have been expressed.

Yes, and some would have (like me) but as soon as other see something
that might question their 'right' to exploit and kill animals for
their pleasure, they react negatively (unsurprising, given how
logically inconsistent they are generally being).

The wouldn't do any harm to a cat or dog and make holes in fences for
hedgehogs but then have a pig gassed, simply because they like the
taste of their flesh when they don't *need* to eat such?

I should have labelled it OT, btw, but that was pretty obvious from the
title, anyway.

Quite, but it wasn't that that was the issue to some (or one), it was
the idea that they might *accidentally* read it and then consider
their lifestyle choices. Remember, for many, 'eating' for is mostly
about *their pleasure* and so is very much part of their lifestyle,
even though they use examples of man having to do things *to survive*
years and years ago (and long before supermarkets).

Cheers, T i m

On 13 May 2021 21:04:03 GMT, Tim Streater
wrote:

On 13 May 2021 at 20:58:36 BST, alan_m wrote:

On 13/05/2021 17:40, T i m wrote:


It's a funny thing, when I was previously eating all sorts of rubbish
but included (processed) meat, eggs and dairy (dairy till my doctor
advised against it), no one (here) seemed interested in my diet /
health. As soon as I started excluding the exploitation of animals
from my diet, everyone (well the trolls especially)

And OT posts about veganism isn't trolling?

Why does T r o l l think we wouldn't have been kicking his arse just as hard

Oh, you have been doing that have you, I didn't notice ... ;-(

if he'd been boring the pants off us with tales of his two eggs, sos, a fried
slice, and black pudding several times a day, every day.

Well, I wouldn't be doing that though would I as I (and millions of
others of course) CGAF what you (or anyone else) eat, as long as you
aren't exploiting other animals (or people) whilst you do.

Just in the same way most of us don't complain about problems we are
having with slaves, witch finders or where to find a decent ducking
stool.

You constantly play the victim when you are the one causing the
victims (even though you can't / won't see it).

But things are changing all the time and assuming you live a bit
longer, you *will* see our evolution away from our assumption that
it's 'ok' to eat meat and drink cows milk in the same way it's no
longer considered acceptable (in many evolved countries / cultures) to
smoke in enclosed public places or drop chewing gum on the ground.

And it's even the case in the Army, with soldiers pushing for vegan
food and clothing. Soldiers (inc the meat eaters) who often later
suffer with PTSD because of what they *need / have* to do, when it's
not what they *choose / want* to do. Exactly the same with abattoir
workers and livestock vets ...

Cheers, T i m

On 14/05/2021 10:00, T i m wrote:

Remember, for many, 'eating' for is mostly
about *their pleasure* and so is very much part of their lifestyle,

I assume that you are speaking here of the vegan predilection for taking
bland vegetables, and via industrial processes, turn them into something
that looks like, smells like, cooks like, and tastes like the very thing
they despise others for eating. Some even force it on their pet dogs.

--
Spike

On Thu, 13 May 2021 15:24:06 -0700, polygonum_on_google wrote:

On Thursday, 13 May 2021 at 16:48:41 UTC+1, GB wrote:
Vegetarians have more favorable levels of a number of biomarkers
including cardiovascular-linked ones €” total cholesterol, low-density
lipoprotein (LDL) cholesterol, and apolipoprotein A and B €” than
meat-eaters




Total cholesterol and LDL cholesterol concentrations for vegetarians
were 21% and 16.4% lower than in meat-eaters. But some biomarkers
considered beneficial €”including vitamin D concentrations €” were lower
in vegetarians, while some considered unhealthy €” including
triglycerides and cystatin-C levels €” were higher.



https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/950911





So, it looks like you are all right!

If my cholesterol were any lower, I'd be classed as
hypocholesterolaemic! I eat butter, cheese, meat, fish, ...

I suspect that thyroid hormone levels are more closely associated with
cholesterol levels than vegetarian/vegan/meat-eating.

Noting of course that more recent research suggests that higher
cholesterol levels can be beneficial when you get older, especially in
women.

Other research suggests that the amount of HDL is more important than LDL
(which can be good or bad LDL but this is not shown in the tests).

As usual, pick your statistics.

Cheers


Dave R



--
AMD FX-6300 in GA-990X-Gaming SLI-CF running Windows 7 Pro x64

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

On 13/05/2021 22:06, T i m wrote:
On Thu, 13 May 2021 20:58:36 +0100, alan_m
wrote:

On 13/05/2021 17:40, T i m wrote:


It's a funny thing, when I was previously eating all sorts of rubbish
but included (processed) meat, eggs and dairy (dairy till my doctor
advised against it), no one (here) seemed interested in my diet /
health. As soon as I started excluding the exploitation of animals
from my diet, everyone (well the trolls especially)

And OT posts about veganism isn't trolling?

I don't know (but it wasn't, it was about diets) I didn't start the
thread and so have done no more than you by commenting on it?

Or if you are talking about the OP not marking the thread OT and if so
I hope you are going to jump on all the other unmarked OT threads
posted here?

Or are you one of those who supports the unnecessary cruelty and
exploitation of animals by any chance, reading such things makes you
feel guilty and so the need to try to netkop?

You are the T r o l l who has admitted you don't care about animal
welfare while an animal is alive. You are a good example of promoting
unnecessary cruelty to animals.

You're more likely to feel guilt when you keep pets, something an
ethical vegan wouldn't do, but a fanatical one would.

On 13/05/2021 23:01, T i m wrote:
On 13 May 2021 21:31:50 GMT, Tim+ wrote:

alan_m wrote:
On 13/05/2021 17:40, T i m wrote:


It's a funny thing, when I was previously eating all sorts of rubbish
but included (processed) meat, eggs and dairy (dairy till my doctor
advised against it), no one (here) seemed interested in my diet /
health. As soon as I started excluding the exploitation of animals
from my diet, everyone (well the trolls especially)

And OT posts about veganism isn't trolling?


Whilst T i ms posting about veganism are mind-bendingly boring

I guess that might depend on how soon the planet is affected and that
affects you?

Given you would advocate an increased population that's a bit rich. I
guess our loved ones allowing us to eat meat affects you through your
show of envy.

and OT,

But *always* clearly marked as such when I start a thread.

But still inappropriate to a DIY group.

in
his defence, he didnt start this particular thread.

Hey, I get people are uncomfortable when they are asked to question
things they have probably been doing all their lives, still aren't
illegal (although that seems to be changing fast) and so can't see the
problem about it all now, but that's the point, it is a problem now
and for all of us and every day, more and more people confirm it's
unsustainable (our consumption of meat, eggs and dairy) and immoral.

You become uncomfortable whenever I mention keeping pets are not
something an ethical vegan would do. An ethical vegan would cage a dog
and feed it meat.

You endorse religious practises employed in cruel animal slaughter.

So it's not just some trivial / diet / fad from a few hippies, it's a
global movement that primarily aims to get people consider the costs
and consequences of their lifestyle choices, as they relate in 2021,
not how they may have related thousands of years ago.

No, it's jealousy we're allowed to eat meat, and by a kebab from a shop
without involving the wrath of our loved ones.

It's not about stopping you doing something, it's about making you
realise you shouldn't have been doing it in the first place.

Quite, it's why my children ate meat as a part of a natural balanced
diet. The alternative is di
https://www.medpagetoday.org/primary...n/4721?vpass=1

"The study found that vegans had an average childhood IQ score that was
nearly 10 points lower than other vegetarians (95.1 for vegans versus
104.8 for other vegetarians; P=0.04)."

Clearly a vegan diet stunts children's brain development.

If it really was ok, you should be able to suckle directly from a cow
and kids should be able to watch how their food comes about.

Why when we can drink milk from a cup.

Do you suck on soya beans?

Daughter has attended several 'Oureach cubes' now (where people stand
in public places showing video footage of *standard* meat production
practices and engage people in conversation to raise awareness) and
nearly without exception, no one is 'happy' watching the footage,
things done to animals, every day, by the million that are *only*
being done because you are paying for it to be done.

Does she engage in improvements in animal welfare, or dopes she consider
these videos serves a purpose and relishes the cruelty in much the same
way you do?

Cheers, T i m

On 14/05/2021 10:31, GB wrote:
On 13/05/2021 22:31, Tim+ wrote:

Whilst T i ms posting about veganism are mind-bendingly boring and
OT, in
his defence, he didnt start this particular thread.

I apologise. I thought that some people might just want to have a look
at the link, which supports several of the apparently conflicting
viewpoints that have been expressed.

I should have labelled it OT, btw, but that was pretty obvious from the
title, anyway.

Apology accepted, while I appreciate the link and indeed I try and
reduce my meat intake, it does seem to attract posts from fanatic nutters.

Vegetarianism does seem a good compromise, and if you're willing to add
fish and become a pescatarian it seems to be a good overall diet.

On 13/05/2021 22:31, Tim+ wrote:
alan_m wrote:
On 13/05/2021 17:40, T i m wrote:


It's a funny thing, when I was previously eating all sorts of rubbish
but included (processed) meat, eggs and dairy (dairy till my doctor
advised against it), no one (here) seemed interested in my diet /
health. As soon as I started excluding the exploitation of animals
from my diet, everyone (well the trolls especially)

And OT posts about veganism isn't trolling?


Whilst T i ms posting about veganism are mind-bendingly boring and OT, in
his defence, he didnt start this particular thread.

Granted, but he turned a useful thread about vegetarianism into a
fanatical vegan one.

On 14/05/2021 08:55, T i m wrote:

snip

you have no interest / ability re considering
any alternative P'sOV and 2) (therefore) are trolling.

Pot, kettle and black comes to mind.

alan_m wrote:
On 13/05/2021 17:40, T i m wrote:


It's a funny thing, when I was previously eating all sorts of rubbish
but included (processed) meat, eggs and dairy (dairy till my doctor
advised against it), no one (here) seemed interested in my diet /
health. As soon as I started excluding the exploitation of animals
from my diet, everyone (well the trolls especially)

And OT posts about veganism isn't trolling?

I don't think that in normal company space-Tim' s pro-vegan
hobby-horse riding would be considered trolling. Somewhat
annoying, perhaps, especially if you kept trying to change
the subject without success. Here, however, replying to
his wibbling seems to be enormously popular with a quite a
range of people who seem to find great joy in disagreeing
with him, attempting - with varying success - various disproofs
of his claims, and sometimes just flat out insulting him.

I think to count as trolling, he would have to be a non-vegan
wilfully posting veganisms simply to annoy ... but I myself
see no particular evidence that that is the case.


#Paul

On 14/05/2021 09:27, Spike wrote:
On 13/05/2021 21:06, T i m wrote:
alan_m wrote:

On 13/05/2021 17:40, T i m wrote:

It's a funny thing, when I was previously eating all sorts of rubbish
but included (processed) meat, eggs and dairy (dairy till my doctor
advised against it), no one (here) seemed interested in my diet /
health. As soon as I started excluding the exploitation of animals
from my diet, everyone (well the trolls especially)

And OT posts about veganism isn't trolling?
I don't know (but it wasn't, it was about diets) I didn't start the
thread and so have done no more than you by commenting on it?

It was also about the caution that has to be applied to the
interpretation of a very limited set of markers indicating 'health' or
the suitability of a limited rather than a balanced diet, such as
claiming 'my B12 levels are fine' suggesting everything else is too.

A B12 assay is not a routine test so unless there are notable
clinical symptoms, all you need is to measure your Hb, RBC, and
MCV. These are all done these days as a set of parameters in one
go, and relatively cheap to do.

If they are normal then a B12 assay is probably pointless.

On 14/05/2021 11:00, T i m wrote:
On Fri, 14 May 2021 10:31:48 +0100, GB
wrote:

On 13/05/2021 22:31, Tim+ wrote:

Whilst T i ms posting about veganism are mind-bendingly boring and OT, in
his defence, he didnt start this particular thread.

I apologise.

Why should you, many other don't seem to care when posting all sort of
OT bs?


Perhaps he knows that many think better of those who offer unforced
apologies, seeing them as signs of people who are both honest and
comfortable in their own skins. Not everyone subscribes to the "never
apologize, it's a sign of weakness" doctrine much beloved by John Wayne
characters and Guards officers.

Or perhaps he's just a Wykehamist living the old school motto

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 13/05/2021 23:01, T i m wrote:

I guess that might depend on how soon the planet is affected and that
affects you?


So it's not just some trivial / diet / fad from a few hippies, it's a
global movement that primarily aims to get people consider the costs
and consequences of their lifestyle choices, as they relate in 2021,
not how they may have related thousands of years ago.

Pity they dont also consider the *real* issue, that there are far too
many people on planet earth to be sustainably supported.

It's not about stopping you doing something, it's about making you
realise you shouldn't have been doing it in the first place.

Like having too many kids



Daughter has attended several 'Oureach cubes' now (where people stand
in public places showing video footage of *standard* meat production
practices and engage people in conversation to raise awareness) and
nearly without exception, no one is 'happy' watching the footage,
things done to animals, every day, by the million that are *only*
being done because you are paying for it to be done.

If you persist in showing fake videos, then of course people will
be 'upset'.

On 14/05/2021 13:32, David wrote:
On Thu, 13 May 2021 15:24:06 -0700, polygonum_on_google wrote:

On Thursday, 13 May 2021 at 16:48:41 UTC+1, GB wrote:
Vegetarians have more favorable levels of a number of biomarkers
including cardiovascular-linked ones €” total cholesterol, low-density
lipoprotein (LDL) cholesterol, and apolipoprotein A and B €” than
meat-eaters




Total cholesterol and LDL cholesterol concentrations for vegetarians
were 21% and 16.4% lower than in meat-eaters. But some biomarkers
considered beneficial €”including vitamin D concentrations €” were lower
in vegetarians, while some considered unhealthy €” including
triglycerides and cystatin-C levels €” were higher.



https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/950911





So, it looks like you are all right!

If my cholesterol were any lower, I'd be classed as
hypocholesterolaemic! I eat butter, cheese, meat, fish, ...

I suspect that thyroid hormone levels are more closely associated with
cholesterol levels than vegetarian/vegan/meat-eating.

Noting of course that more recent research suggests that higher
cholesterol levels can be beneficial when you get older, especially in
women.

Other research suggests that the amount of HDL is more important than LDL
(which can be good or bad LDL but this is not shown in the tests).


This was known in the 1970's. The graduate Biochemist who ran the
Chem Path lab in one hospital I worked at was doing an MSC in Lipids
in 1978, and even then she was saying the NHS should be measuring
HDL and LDL and paying attention to the ratio of these two levels.
These days that is how it is done worldwide.

On 14/05/2021 07:39, polygonum_on_google wrote:
On Thursday, 13 May 2021 at 16:48:41 UTC+1, GB wrote:
Vegetarians have more favorable levels of a number of biomarkers
including cardiovascular-linked ones €” total cholesterol, low-density
lipoprotein (LDL) cholesterol, and apolipoprotein A and B €” than meat-eaters




Total cholesterol and LDL cholesterol concentrations for vegetarians
were 21% and 16.4% lower than in meat-eaters. But some biomarkers
considered beneficial €”including vitamin D concentrations €” were lower
in vegetarians, while some considered unhealthy €” including
triglycerides and cystatin-C levels €” were higher.



https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/950911





So, it looks like you are all right!

"Celis-Morales and his team are currently conducting a further analysis to understand if the vegetarian diet is also associated with a lower risk of cancer, depression, and dementia compared with meat-eaters."

Why the form of words "understand if ... lower risk ..." rather than "find out whether ... different risk ..."?

It looks like are wading in with the lower risk as an assumption. Or that if they found a higher risk, they'd ignore it!

Also, vitamin D is a difficult one these days. We have official advice to take a supplement so we can imagine a relatively high rate of so doing. But of those who do, many vegetarians/vegans might choose a vegetarian/vegan supplement. Until fairly recently, all vegetarian/vegan supplements were vitamin D2
which appear to be significantly less desirable than D3.

If those supplementation issues were not factored in, any results are likely questionable (at best).


And you should take Vit B2 together with Vit D3 and one suitable source
is eggs.

On Fri, 14 May 2021 14:30:44 +0100, Robin wrote:

On 14/05/2021 11:00, T i m wrote:
On Fri, 14 May 2021 10:31:48 +0100, GB
wrote:

On 13/05/2021 22:31, Tim+ wrote:

Whilst T i m’s posting about veganism are mind-bendingly boring and OT, in
his defence, he didn’t start this particular thread.

I apologise.

Why should you, many other don't seem to care when posting all sort of
OT bs?

Perhaps he knows that many think better of those who offer unforced
apologies,

By 'unforced' you mean he didn't try to put him on the spot in a
public forum, or just because he didn't actually hold a gun to his
head?

seeing them as signs of people who are both honest and
comfortable in their own skins.

Or will roll over when pushed by a bigot who is very selective re
which off topic initial posts he 'calls out'?

Not everyone subscribes to the "never
apologize, it's a sign of weakness" doctrine much beloved by John Wayne
characters and Guards officers.

Of course.

Or perhaps he's just a Wykehamist living the old school motto

Whoosh. ;-(

Cheers, T i m

On Fri, 14 May 2021 14:32:10 +0100, Andrew
wrote:

On 13/05/2021 23:01, T i m wrote:

I guess that might depend on how soon the planet is affected and that
affects you?


So it's not just some trivial / diet / fad from a few hippies, it's a
global movement that primarily aims to get people consider the costs
and consequences of their lifestyle choices, as they relate in 2021,
not how they may have related thousands of years ago.

Pity they dont also consider the *real* issue, that there are far too
many people on planet earth to be sustainably supported.

Then do / say something about *that* then?

It's not about stopping you doing something, it's about making you
realise you shouldn't have been doing it in the first place.

Like having too many kids

Quite.

Daughter has attended several 'Oureach cubes' now (where people stand
in public places showing video footage of *standard* meat production
practices and engage people in conversation to raise awareness) and
nearly without exception, no one is 'happy' watching the footage,
things done to animals, every day, by the million that are *only*
being done because you are paying for it to be done.

If you persist in showing fake videos, then of course people will
be 'upset'.

Cite a single video that was fake or STFU princesses. *Every* video
they show is 100% genuine and *everyday* footage of 'standard
practice' from around the UK. They couldn't show anything else as it
could be proven as 'fake'. So the only people who suggest it could be
are cowardly trolls in denial.

Cheers, T i m

On Fri, 14 May 2021 14:27:29 +0100,
(#Paul) wrote:

snip

I don't think that in normal company space-Tim' s pro-vegan
hobby-horse riding would be considered trolling. Somewhat
annoying, perhaps, especially if you kept trying to change
the subject without success. Here, however, replying to
his wibbling seems to be enormously popular with a quite a
range of people who seem to find great joy in disagreeing
with him, attempting - with varying success - various disproofs
of his claims, and sometimes just flat out insulting him.

Broad shoulders here Paul and the full expectation of the sort of
replies I have from a minority, just as those who were trying to
suggest the world was in fact round or that we shouldn't really have
slaves were sure to have received.

Because I was already aware of the age and attitude demographic here,
I though it would be an interesting public exercise to see (and so
learn) some of the things people seem to actually think / believe ...
still, in 2021! ;-)

I think to count as trolling, he would have to be a non-vegan
wilfully posting veganisms simply to annoy ... but I myself
see no particular evidence that that is the case.

And you won't find any as there are none.

I've been here a good few years now any 'normal person' who has
actually had a reasonable and reasoned discussion with me will confirm
that I have never lied. Why would I, I'm crap at it so I don't.

Bottom line. It's 2021, not 'thousands of years ago' and so, for the
vast majority of the population with supermarkets within easy reach
and who don't actually *have* to go out hunting for their dinner to
*survive*, and with all the negatives associated with our current
consumption levels of meat, eggs and milk, that more people would
actually be doing something about it themselves, given how easy it is
to do and outside of here (proportionally), many are of course.

So we aren't talking about some 'little fad', we are talking about
catastrophic levels of habitat destruction and so the associated
wildlife ecosystems and inevitably the very stuff we need to survive
ourselves.

This isn't just 'a problem, it's one of the biggest problems we are
suffering today and one that could be helped easily by just some small
lifestyle changes by the vast majority.

And that is easier and easier to do as I was pleased to confirm when I
did a quick shop round Sainsbury's tonight and came home with a
trolley full of food, none of which required an animal to
unnecessarily suffer and die for just 5 minutes of taste pleasure.

Tonight I did us a Quorn 'chunks' stir fry (1/2 bag of Quorn chunks,
an onion, bag of mixed veg, bean sprouts, Singapore style noodles and
a pouch of their stir fry sauce. I didn't serve it all up (too much
and we both like our food) so we have some to go in a wrap or on a
baked potato or something and everything that wasn't obviously vegan,
had a nice easy to spot vegan mark on it. The curry will be tomorrow
now, something (vegan obviously) we haven't tried before from Iceland,
with some popadoms, pilau rice and a can of cold lager (Sainsbury's
Depo 4 for £1.25, 2% stuff). ;-)

Same with the red and brown sauces and salad cream ('Suitable for
vegans') and all the other things.

Daughter drove to the Peak District earlier with her b/f for a week
away, just walking and chilling. The place they rented apparently
provides guests with a 'Welcome basket', something alcoholic and dairy
(some cows milk and cheese etc) and she previously requested they
didn't bother for them, because they were vegan (and trying to cut the
drink out). So, it was a pleasant surprise to find a welcome basket
with a selection of vegan treats and a carton of oat milk when they
arrived. ;-)

Q. If you can eat healthily and heartily just by making a few
different food choices without causing and pain, suffering,
exploitation and death to animals (and all the other side effects like
many pandemics, antibiotic resistance and environmental destruction),
why wouldn't you?

https://www.livekindly.co/myth-buste...are-unhealthy/

Cheers, T i m

On 14/05/2021 13:31, Spike wrote:
On 14/05/2021 10:00, T i m wrote:

Remember, for many, 'eating' for is mostly
about *their pleasure* and so is very much part of their lifestyle,

I assume that you are speaking here of the vegan predilection for taking
bland vegetables, and via industrial processes, turn them into something
that looks like, smells like, cooks like, and tastes like the very thing
they despise others for eating. Some even force it on their pet dogs.

If god hadn't intended us to eat meat he wouldn't have made it so
****ing delicious.

--
€œThe urge to save humanity is almost always only a false face for the
urge to rule it.€�
€“ H. L. Mencken

On Sat, 15 May 2021 06:08:48 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 14/05/2021 13:31, Spike wrote:
On 14/05/2021 10:00, T i m wrote:

Remember, for many, 'eating' for is mostly
about *their pleasure* and so is very much part of their lifestyle,

I assume that you are speaking here of the vegan predilection for taking
bland vegetables, and via industrial processes, turn them into something
that looks like, smells like, cooks like, and tastes like the very thing
they despise others for eating. Some even force it on their pet dogs.

If god

Who?

hadn't intended us to eat meat he wouldn't have made it so
****ing delicious.

And I'm guessing the same pleasure levels apply to cocaine?

Cheers, T i m

On 15/05/2021 07:54, T i m wrote:
On Sat, 15 May 2021 06:08:48 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 14/05/2021 13:31, Spike wrote:
On 14/05/2021 10:00, T i m wrote:

Remember, for many, 'eating' for is mostly
about *their pleasure* and so is very much part of their lifestyle,

I assume that you are speaking here of the vegan predilection for taking
bland vegetables, and via industrial processes, turn them into something
that looks like, smells like, cooks like, and tastes like the very thing
they despise others for eating. Some even force it on their pet dogs.

If god

Who?

hadn't intended us to eat meat he wouldn't have made it so
****ing delicious.

And I'm guessing the same pleasure levels apply to cocaine?

Seeing that your coke is a vegan thing, I'll eat an eight ounce steak
and you can eat eight ounces of coke.
For afters, we can compare pleasure points.

On Sat, 15 May 2021 08:26:54 +0100, Richard
wrote:

On 15/05/2021 07:54, T i m wrote:
On Sat, 15 May 2021 06:08:48 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 14/05/2021 13:31, Spike wrote:
On 14/05/2021 10:00, T i m wrote:

Remember, for many, 'eating' for is mostly
about *their pleasure* and so is very much part of their lifestyle,

I assume that you are speaking here of the vegan predilection for taking
bland vegetables, and via industrial processes, turn them into something
that looks like, smells like, cooks like, and tastes like the very thing
they despise others for eating. Some even force it on their pet dogs.

If god

Who?

hadn't intended us to eat meat he wouldn't have made it so
****ing delicious.

And I'm guessing the same pleasure levels apply to cocaine?

Seeing that your coke is a vegan thing, I'll eat an eight ounce steak
and you can eat eight ounces of coke.
For afters, we can compare pleasure points.

Whoosh.

The point was there are probably loads of things we could do / have
that we could get 'pleasure' (tastes, nicotine, alcohol, drug highs
etc) but in most cases they are learned. You don't miss what you have
never had.

Give a child an apple and a hen and it will eat the apple and play
with the hen, it wouldn't wonder what the hen tasted like.

As it happens 'chicken' tastes pretty bland and ironically is used as
a comparison to the taste of the flesh of many other animals ... and
we often try to make it taste of *something* by feeding the bird on
corn, marinading it's flesh in herbs and spices (so plants) or coating
it in batter with herbs and spices (plants).

Same with other meats (marinading / coating) and then adding sauces
made from more plants, like apple, cranberry, mint, horseradish,
mustard, tomato ketchup or (ironically), soy sauce.

Veg tastes best when it's fresh. Meat gets some taste when it's 'hung'
for some time (probably from the flies). ;-(

Cheers, T i m

On 14/05/2021 20:24, T i m wrote:

I've been here a good few years now any 'normal person' who has
actually had a reasonable and reasoned discussion with me will confirm
that I have never lied. Why would I, I'm crap at it so I don't.

Your big problem is the wild exaggerations and unfounded claims that you
make in order to support your new-found very-late-in-the-day evangelism.
These are regularly destroyed buy those who counter such claims by
posting the facts of the matter. You usually wind up the discussion by
hurling abuse. It makes a 'reasonable and reasoned discussion' with you
on the subject a near-impossibility.

--
Spike

On 15/05/2021 07:54, T i m wrote:
On Sat, 15 May 2021 06:08:48 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 14/05/2021 13:31, Spike wrote:
On 14/05/2021 10:00, T i m wrote:

Remember, for many, 'eating' for is mostly
about *their pleasure* and so is very much part of their lifestyle,

I assume that you are speaking here of the vegan predilection for taking
bland vegetables, and via industrial processes, turn them into something
that looks like, smells like, cooks like, and tastes like the very thing
they despise others for eating. Some even force it on their pet dogs.

If god

Who?

That mythical deity you believe in, a bit like father christmas when you
were younger.

hadn't intended us to eat meat he wouldn't have made it so
****ing delicious.

And I'm guessing the same pleasure levels apply to cocaine?


They probably do, except cocaine acts directly on the brain. Pleasure
has a purpose, to ensure we eat a healthy balanced diet, not one that
slows or stunts brain development.

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/2...r-intelligence
€œThere are some tragic cases of children whose brains failed to
develop because of their parents being ill-informed vegans€�

On 16 May 2021 at 12:23:09 BST, "Fredxx" wrote:

On 15/05/2021 07:54, T i m wrote:
On Sat, 15 May 2021 06:08:48 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 14/05/2021 13:31, Spike wrote:
On 14/05/2021 10:00, T i m wrote:

Remember, for many, 'eating' for is mostly
about *their pleasure* and so is very much part of their lifestyle,

I assume that you are speaking here of the vegan predilection for taking
bland vegetables, and via industrial processes, turn them into something
that looks like, smells like, cooks like, and tastes like the very thing
they despise others for eating. Some even force it on their pet dogs.

If god

Who?

That mythical deity you believe in, a bit like father christmas when you
were younger.

hadn't intended us to eat meat he wouldn't have made it so
****ing delicious.

And I'm guessing the same pleasure levels apply to cocaine?


They probably do, except cocaine acts directly on the brain. Pleasure
has a purpose, to ensure we eat a healthy balanced diet, not one that
slows or stunts brain development.


https://www.bbc.com/future/article/2...r-intelligence
€œThere are some tragic cases of children whose brains failed to
develop because of their parents being ill-informed vegans€�

And from the same link, when considering why more women than men are vegans:

--
€œsocial dominance theory€�, which suggests that men might find meat more
appealing when theyre reminded its made from animals, because it reinforces
their sense of dominance and superiority €“ by viewing animals as unworthy of
respect, they are asserting their power over them.
--

--
Cheers, Rob

On Friday, 14 May 2021 at 14:28:22 UTC+1, Andrew wrote:
On 14/05/2021 09:27, Spike wrote:
On 13/05/2021 21:06, T i m wrote:
alan_m wrote:

On 13/05/2021 17:40, T i m wrote:

It's a funny thing, when I was previously eating all sorts of rubbish
but included (processed) meat, eggs and dairy (dairy till my doctor
advised against it), no one (here) seemed interested in my diet /
health. As soon as I started excluding the exploitation of animals
from my diet, everyone (well the trolls especially)

And OT posts about veganism isn't trolling?
I don't know (but it wasn't, it was about diets) I didn't start the
thread and so have done no more than you by commenting on it?

It was also about the caution that has to be applied to the
interpretation of a very limited set of markers indicating 'health' or
the suitability of a limited rather than a balanced diet, such as
claiming 'my B12 levels are fine' suggesting everything else is too.

A B12 assay is not a routine test so unless there are notable
clinical symptoms, all you need is to measure your Hb, RBC, and
MCV. These are all done these days as a set of parameters in one
go, and relatively cheap to do.

If they are normal then a B12 assay is probably pointless.

Check RDW as well (albeit not a separate test) as concurrent iron deficiency and B12 deficiency can make MCV look reasonable.

On 14/05/2021 08:55, T i m wrote:[i]
On Thu, 13 May 2021 23:33:14 +0100, williamwright
wrote:

On 13/05/2021 17:40, T i m wrote:

A year+ later, ...don't have
the guilt of the animal exploitation hanging over my head that I now
realise has been there for a good few years now. ;-(

But you should feel guilt on behalf of the rest of humanity, in the same
way as people who aren't racists are expected to feel guilt and 'take
the knee', and people who weren't alive in the 18th century are supposed
to feel guilty about slavery.

Sorry Bill (just to save you some time / effort if you actually expect
a reply from me personally etc), you are now also on my Troll-Ignore
list as it's obvious 1) you have no interest / ability re considering
any alternative P'sOV and 2) (therefore) are trolling.

Your list is not long enough for my liking.

Put everyone who posts here on your list.


--
Adam