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#121
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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Electric vehicles
In article ,
Chris Hogg wrote: On Thu, 22 Apr 2021 17:18:34 +0100, nightjar wrote: On 20/04/2021 18:08, Tim+ wrote: nightjar wrote: On 20/04/2021 13:40, Tim+ wrote: ... ANPR cameras are already all over the country monitoring your movements. What additional privacy issues are you worried about? Not me; the opponents of a road pricing system. Possibly because road pricing would need an awful lot more of them. Which is why a simple mileage based system would be so much easier. We already have a simple mileage based system and one that, unlike a flat distance rate, rewards those who use more efficient vehicles. It is called Road Fuel Duty. All we need to do is extend it to electric vehicles too. Having thought on the matter further, I realise that would be much easier than I first thought. If all public charging points applied the tax at point of sale, the way Road Fuel Duty is applied, the only problem would be collecting the tax due when the vehicle is charged at home. I've not followed this thread all the way, but why not simply have two meters at home, one for the domestic stuff and the other for the car charger? With 'smart' meters becoming widely used, that would be easy enough to set up and be billed for by the supplier and paid by the home owner in the usual way. Apologies if this has already been suggested, but it seems to me to be a fairly simple solution. It would be very easy to bypass teh2car meter" by plugging into a socket on the house supply. Unless a special plug is fitted to the car's connector and no other is available. -- from KT24 in Surrey, England "I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle |
#122
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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Electric vehicles
On 22/04/2021 17:18, nightjar wrote:
On 20/04/2021 18:08, Tim+ wrote: nightjar wrote: On 20/04/2021 13:40, Tim+ wrote: ... ANPR cameras are already all over the country monitoring your movements. What additional privacy issues are you worried about? Not me; the opponents of a road pricing system. Possibly because road pricing would need an awful lot more of them. Which is why a simple mileage based system would be so much easier. We already have a simple mileage based system and one that, unlike a flat distance rate, rewards those who use more efficient vehicles. It is called Road Fuel Duty. All we need to do is extend it to electric vehicles too. Having thought on the matter further, I realise that would be much easier than I first thought. If all public charging points applied the tax at point of sale, the way Road Fuel Duty is applied, the only problem would be collecting the tax due when the vehicle is charged at home. ISTM that could be solved with a very minor modification to the vehicle - the addition of a short range transmitter that only operates when the vehicle is connected to an outside supply. A linked receiver would detect it and notify the house meter that a vehicle was connected. The house meter should then be able to detect the change in use when the vehicle is connected and disconnected and hence know what rate it was charging at. This should work even if the vehicle is connected to 13A socket, rather than a dedicated charging point. The tax can then be collected through the electricity company. No need to track anybody and all revenue collections are completely automatic. Having said that, a road use charge seems to be the solution the government is expect to adopt, probably at much greater cost. Taxing the electricity EVs take is - and always has been - in principle an option. But a little more detail would have helped judge whether that's practicable. As it is I am left to infer that you envisage: a. the addition of a receiver to smart meters and smart meters required everywhere a car is charged - even where they cannot get a signal so are read manually b. the addition of a transmitter to every EV c. the transmitter able to stop the EV accepting the charge unless it shakes hands with the receiver d. all secure e. all even more reliable (else as it's all to easy to foresee the headlines when inability to charge leads to injury or death. I can well imagine some Treasury officials dismissing those as as "technical details" - to which I'd be inclined to say "indeed, just like the design and roll-out of smart meters themselves". But I (and others) also see a more fundamental question: how to justify much higher prices for kWh for an electric vehicle than kWh for patio heaters, hot tubs, power showers, 65 inch TVs, bitcoin mining etc etc. You might argue it's carrying over the differences now between road fuels and other oils. But EVs are being forced on people to save the planet, as part of a program to cut back on energy consumption generally. What makes EVs uniqulety bad when it's all carbon neutral? -- Robin reply-to address is (intended to be) valid |
#123
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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Electric vehicles
On 22/04/2021 17:40, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Thu, 22 Apr 2021 17:18:34 +0100, nightjar wrote: On 20/04/2021 18:08, Tim+ wrote: nightjar wrote: On 20/04/2021 13:40, Tim+ wrote: ... ANPR cameras are already all over the country monitoring your movements. What additional privacy issues are you worried about? Not me; the opponents of a road pricing system. Possibly because road pricing would need an awful lot more of them. Which is why a simple mileage based system would be so much easier. We already have a simple mileage based system and one that, unlike a flat distance rate, rewards those who use more efficient vehicles. It is called Road Fuel Duty. All we need to do is extend it to electric vehicles too. Having thought on the matter further, I realise that would be much easier than I first thought. If all public charging points applied the tax at point of sale, the way Road Fuel Duty is applied, the only problem would be collecting the tax due when the vehicle is charged at home. I've not followed this thread all the way, but why not simply have two meters at home, one for the domestic stuff and the other for the car charger? With 'smart' meters becoming widely used, that would be easy enough to set up and be billed for by the supplier and paid by the home owner in the usual way. Apologies if this has already been suggested, but it seems to me to be a fairly simple solution. You don't need a separate meter as such if you have a charging point which communicates with the meter. Legislation in 2018 gave the government power to require all charging points to have "smart functionality". They propose to do so for all new home charging points by 2025. Early days though and there are unsurprisingly concerns about the cost. -- Robin reply-to address is (intended to be) valid |
#124
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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Electric vehicles
On 22/04/2021 17:40, Chris Hogg wrote:
.... I've not followed this thread all the way, but why not simply have two meters at home, one for the domestic stuff and the other for the car charger?.. The problem is that an electric car does not have to be charged from a dedicated and separately metered supply. You can plug it into any 13A socket and it will charge, albeit slowly. Thus any solution has to allow for that possibility. -- Colin Bignell |
#125
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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Electric vehicles
Robin wrote:
You don't need a separate meter as such if you have a charging point which communicates with the meter.* Legislation in 2018 gave the government power to require all charging points to have "smart functionality".* They propose to do so for all new home charging points by 2025. At the moment, pretty well all electric cars communicate with the charger* using just some pulses and a diode, but there is the option to use a full homeplug (data over mains wiring) type connection and there's a zigbee energy profile for wireless communication between smartmeter and car. [*] not really the charger, but it's what everyone calls the thing on the wall. |
#126
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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Electric vehicles
On 22/04/2021 18:24, Robin wrote:
On 22/04/2021 17:18, nightjar wrote: On 20/04/2021 18:08, Tim+ wrote: nightjar wrote: On 20/04/2021 13:40, Tim+ wrote: ... ANPR cameras are already all over the country monitoring your movements. What additional privacy issues are you worried about? Not me; the opponents of a road pricing system. Possibly because road pricing would need an awful lot more of them. Which is why a simple mileage based system would be so much easier. We already have a simple mileage based system and one that, unlike a flat distance rate, rewards those who use more efficient vehicles. It is called Road Fuel Duty. All we need to do is extend it to electric vehicles too. Having thought on the matter further, I realise that would be much easier than I first thought. If all public charging points applied the tax at point of sale, the way Road Fuel Duty is applied, the only problem would be collecting the tax due when the vehicle is charged at home. ISTM that could be solved with a very minor modification to the vehicle - the addition of a short range transmitter that only operates when the vehicle is connected to an outside supply. A linked receiver would detect it and notify the house meter that a vehicle was connected. The house meter should then be able to detect the change in use when the vehicle is connected and disconnected and hence know what rate it was charging at. This should work even if the vehicle is connected to 13A socket, rather than a dedicated charging point. The tax can then be collected through the electricity company. No need to track anybody and all revenue collections are completely automatic. Having said that, a road use charge seems to be the solution the government is expect to adopt, probably at much greater cost. Taxing the electricity EVs take is - and always has been - in principle an option.* But a little more detail would have helped judge whether that's practicable.* As it is I am left to infer that you envisage: a.*** the addition of a receiver to smart meters and smart meters required everywhere a car is charged - even where they cannot get a signal so are read manually AIUI, all new meters have smart functionality, even if they have to be read manually. It wouldn't make sense to build dumb meters any more. b.*** the addition of a transmitter to every EV c.*** the transmitter able to stop the EV accepting the charge unless it shakes hands with the receiver I had not thought of that, but it would be a sensible provision. d.*** all secure To whatever standard is decided is reasonable for the application. e.*** all even more reliable (else as it's all to easy to foresee the headlines when inability to charge leads to injury or death. What is rather more difficult to foresee is any reasonably predictable situation where a failure to charge leads to injury or death. It is no more of a problem than a car running out of fuel. I can well imagine some Treasury officials dismissing those as as "technical details" - to which I'd be inclined to say "indeed, just like the design and roll-out of smart meters themselves". But I (and others) also see a more fundamental question: how to justify much higher prices for kWh for an electric vehicle than kWh for patio heaters, hot tubs, power showers, 65 inch TVs, bitcoin mining etc etc. The price per kWH will be the same for all. The difference in price for the various uses will be government taxes* and duties. Those should be shown on the bill as separate items. * probably 20% VAT as for road fuels. You might argue it's carrying over the differences now between road fuels and other oils.* But EVs are being forced on people to save the planet, as part of a program to cut back on energy consumption generally.* What makes EVs uniqulety bad when it's all carbon neutral? Road Fuel Duty has little or nothing to do with trying to make everything carbon neutral. It is a source of government income, amounting to about 1% of GDP. The Treasury is determined to replace it with something. That will probably be some form of road pricing, but I am simply pointing out that it need not be. -- Colin Bignell |
#127
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Electric vehicles
Chris Hogg wrote: As Charles suggested, simply fit a special plug on the car's connector. AIUI there are several types of plug/socket combination in use anyway. Just ensure that none will fit a standard 3-pin 13A socket. Enterprising geezers in shady corners of pubs will ask if you want to buy an adapter lead |
#128
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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Electric vehicles
Chris Hogg wrote:
On Thu, 22 Apr 2021 18:36:17 +0100, nightjar wrote: On 22/04/2021 17:40, Chris Hogg wrote: ... I've not followed this thread all the way, but why not simply have two meters at home, one for the domestic stuff and the other for the car charger?.. The problem is that an electric car does not have to be charged from a dedicated and separately metered supply. You can plug it into any 13A socket and it will charge, albeit slowly. Thus any solution has to allow for that possibility. Not an insurmountable problem, though. As Charles suggested, simply fit a special plug on the car's connector. AIUI there are several types of plug/socket combination in use anyway. Just ensure that none will fit a standard 3-pin 13A socket. Making all existing granny charger leads illegal and trying to police it would be insurmountable in my opinion. Tim -- Please don't feed the trolls |
#129
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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Electric vehicles
"bert" wrote in message ... In article , %% writes "Andrew" wrote in message ... On 17/04/2021 22:17, %% wrote: "Andrew" wrote in message ... On 17/04/2021 16:08, The Natural Philosopher wrote: and with the internet work doesn't need to be further away than a laptop real work doesn't involve the internet. Bull****. That's what passes for 'work' on the internet. More bull****. Remote diagnosis etc etc etc is nothing like that. Same with remote reconfig of complex systems instead of having to visit in person. But can you change a fcuking light bulb? Yep, and do remote surgery too. |
#130
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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Electric vehicles
"bert" wrote in message ... In article , Andrew writes On 17/04/2021 22:50, Robin wrote: *tax policy has been the responsibility of HM Treasury since 2005. So in principle it falls to them to come up with options to fill the gap left by fuel duties. That said, when things go wrong it's never, ever the Treasury's fault. There is always that static, immoveable source of lots of juicy revenue, Britain's stupidly overpriced houses. There's no revenue from a fixed asset like a house. There is actually, council rates and taxes. |
#131
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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Electric vehicles
"Chris Hogg" wrote in message ... On Thu, 22 Apr 2021 17:18:34 +0100, nightjar wrote: On 20/04/2021 18:08, Tim+ wrote: nightjar wrote: On 20/04/2021 13:40, Tim+ wrote: ... ANPR cameras are already all over the country monitoring your movements. What additional privacy issues are you worried about? Not me; the opponents of a road pricing system. Possibly because road pricing would need an awful lot more of them. Which is why a simple mileage based system would be so much easier. We already have a simple mileage based system and one that, unlike a flat distance rate, rewards those who use more efficient vehicles. It is called Road Fuel Duty. All we need to do is extend it to electric vehicles too. Having thought on the matter further, I realise that would be much easier than I first thought. If all public charging points applied the tax at point of sale, the way Road Fuel Duty is applied, the only problem would be collecting the tax due when the vehicle is charged at home. I've not followed this thread all the way, but why not simply have two meters at home, one for the domestic stuff and the other for the car charger? With 'smart' meters becoming widely used, that would be easy enough to set up and be billed for by the supplier and paid by the home owner in the usual way. Apologies if this has already been suggested, but it seems to me to be a fairly simple solution. But doesn't stop you charging the car from the normal power points to avoid the higher cost of charging from the metered car charger. |
#132
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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Electric vehicles
"Chris Hogg" wrote in message ... On Thu, 22 Apr 2021 18:36:17 +0100, nightjar wrote: On 22/04/2021 17:40, Chris Hogg wrote: ... I've not followed this thread all the way, but why not simply have two meters at home, one for the domestic stuff and the other for the car charger?.. The problem is that an electric car does not have to be charged from a dedicated and separately metered supply. You can plug it into any 13A socket and it will charge, albeit slowly. Thus any solution has to allow for that possibility. Not an insurmountable problem, though. As Charles suggested, simply fit a special plug on the car's connector. AIUI there are several types of plug/socket combination in use anyway. Just ensure that none will fit a standard 3-pin 13A socket. All that would do is create a market for adapters. |
#133
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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Electric vehicles
On 22/04/2021 19:38, nightjar wrote:
On 22/04/2021 18:24, Robin wrote: e.*** all even more reliable (else as it's all to easy to foresee the headlines when inability to charge leads to injury or death. What is rather more difficult to foresee is any reasonably predictable situation where a failure to charge leads to injury or death. It is no more of a problem than a car running out of fuel. Anyone can see when they drive home if they will have enough fuel to get to work - or to a family member - in an emergency. They can't see that their car will fail to charge while they are in bed because of a glitch in the system. The price per kWH will be the same for all. The difference in price for the various uses will be government taxes* and duties. Those should be shown on the bill as separate items. * probably 20% VAT as for road fuels. On that basis the price of red diesel is much the same as diesel at any filling station. I'd love to see you sell that to drivers on a forecourt. There is no tradition of consumer sales on the basis of prices before tax and duties in this country. And legislation largely forbids their use. You might argue it's carrying over the differences now between road fuels and other oils.* But EVs are being forced on people to save the planet, as part of a program to cut back on energy consumption generally.* What makes EVs uniqulety bad when it's all carbon neutral? Road Fuel Duty has little or nothing to do with trying to make everything carbon neutral. It is a source of government income, amounting to about 1% of GDP. The Treasury is determined to replace it with something. That will probably be some form of road pricing, but I am simply pointing out that it need not be. I did not say that fuel duties have anything to do with the move to net zero. I said that the switch to EVs does. It's a stretch to call of this "DIY tax policy" so in brief: Fuel duties have a rationale in the external costs of motoring. They are particularly good at capturing the externalities such as pollution and carbon emissions from petrol and diesel. But they are less good (= **** poor) when it comes to costs such as congestion, accidents and noise which vary enormously with when and where you drive. Taxes on fuel just cannot vary with time and place. A tax on electricity for EVs lacks the justification of pollution and carbon emissions. (Or rather, lacks the justification to tax a kWh for EVs more than a kWh for a patio heater) As for other externalities, road pricing is more direct and gives clearer signals to consumers. Especially if it varies with when and where. -- Robin reply-to address is (intended to be) valid |
#134
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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More Heavy Trolling by the Senile Octogenarian Nym-Shifting Ozzie Cretin!
On Fri, 23 Apr 2021 06:10:36 +1000, %%, better known as cantankerous
trolling senile geezer Rodent Speed, wrote: FLUSH the useless trolling senile asshole's latest troll**** unread -- Website (from 2007) dedicated to the 86-year-old trolling senile cretin from Oz: https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/r...d-faq.2973853/ |
#135
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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Electric vehicles
In article ,
Rod Speed wrote: "bert" wrote in message ... In article , Andrew writes On 17/04/2021 22:50, Robin wrote: *tax policy has been the responsibility of HM Treasury since 2005. So in principle it falls to them to come up with options to fill the gap left by fuel duties. That said, when things go wrong it's never, ever the Treasury's fault. There is always that static, immoveable source of lots of juicy revenue, Britain's stupidly overpriced houses. There's no revenue from a fixed asset like a house. There is actually, council rates and taxes. to the owner they are outgoings. -- from KT24 in Surrey, England "I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle |
#136
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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More Heavy Trolling by the Senile Octogenarian Nym-Shifting Ozzie Cretin!
On Fri, 23 Apr 2021 06:36:25 +1000, %%, better known as cantankerous
trolling senile geezer Rodent Speed, wrote: FLUSH the useless trolling senile asshole's latest troll**** unread -- Marland answering senile Rodent's statement, "I don't leak": "Thats because so much **** and ****e emanates from your gob that there is nothing left to exit normally, your arsehole has clammed shut through disuse and the end of prick is only clear because you are such a ******." Message-ID: |
#137
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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More Heavy Trolling by the Senile Octogenarian Nym-Shifting Ozzie Cretin!
On Fri, 23 Apr 2021 06:29:55 +1000, %%, better known as cantankerous
trolling senile geezer Rodent Speed, wrote: FLUSH the useless trolling senile asshole's latest troll**** unread -- dennis@home to know-it-all Rodent Speed: "You really should stop commenting on things you know nothing about." Message-ID: |
#138
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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Lonely Obnoxious Auto-contradicting Senile Ozzie Troll Alert!
On Fri, 23 Apr 2021 06:20:26 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again: FLUSH the useless trolling senile asshole's latest troll**** unread -- "Anonymous" to trolling senile Rodent Speed: "You can **** off as you know less than pig **** you sad little ignorant ****." MID: |
#139
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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Electric vehicles
"charles" wrote in message ... In article , Rod Speed wrote: "bert" wrote in message ... In article , Andrew writes On 17/04/2021 22:50, Robin wrote: *tax policy has been the responsibility of HM Treasury since 2005. So in principle it falls to them to come up with options to fill the gap left by fuel duties. That said, when things go wrong it's never, ever the Treasury's fault. There is always that static, immoveable source of lots of juicy revenue, Britain's stupidly overpriced houses. There's no revenue from a fixed asset like a house. There is actually, council rates and taxes. to the owner they are outgoings. So is the tax on fuel and with car registration. |
#140
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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Lonely Obnoxious Cantankerous Auto-contradicting Senile Ozzie Troll Alert!
On Fri, 23 Apr 2021 07:29:51 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again: FLUSH the useless trolling senile asshole's latest troll**** unread -- Sqwertz to Rodent Speed: "This is just a hunch, but I'm betting you're kinda an argumentative asshole. MID: |
#141
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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Electric vehicles
"nightjar" wrote in message ... On 22/04/2021 18:24, Robin wrote: On 22/04/2021 17:18, nightjar wrote: On 20/04/2021 18:08, Tim+ wrote: nightjar wrote: On 20/04/2021 13:40, Tim+ wrote: ... ANPR cameras are already all over the country monitoring your movements. What additional privacy issues are you worried about? Not me; the opponents of a road pricing system. Possibly because road pricing would need an awful lot more of them. Which is why a simple mileage based system would be so much easier. We already have a simple mileage based system and one that, unlike a flat distance rate, rewards those who use more efficient vehicles. It is called Road Fuel Duty. All we need to do is extend it to electric vehicles too. Having thought on the matter further, I realise that would be much easier than I first thought. If all public charging points applied the tax at point of sale, the way Road Fuel Duty is applied, the only problem would be collecting the tax due when the vehicle is charged at home. ISTM that could be solved with a very minor modification to the vehicle - the addition of a short range transmitter that only operates when the vehicle is connected to an outside supply. A linked receiver would detect it and notify the house meter that a vehicle was connected. The house meter should then be able to detect the change in use when the vehicle is connected and disconnected and hence know what rate it was charging at. This should work even if the vehicle is connected to 13A socket, rather than a dedicated charging point. The tax can then be collected through the electricity company. No need to track anybody and all revenue collections are completely automatic. Having said that, a road use charge seems to be the solution the government is expect to adopt, probably at much greater cost. Taxing the electricity EVs take is - and always has been - in principle an option. But a little more detail would have helped judge whether that's practicable. As it is I am left to infer that you envisage: a. the addition of a receiver to smart meters and smart meters required everywhere a car is charged - even where they cannot get a signal so are read manually AIUI, all new meters have smart functionality, even if they have to be read manually. It wouldn't make sense to build dumb meters any more. b. the addition of a transmitter to every EV c. the transmitter able to stop the EV accepting the charge unless it shakes hands with the receiver I had not thought of that, but it would be a sensible provision. d. all secure To whatever standard is decided is reasonable for the application. e. all even more reliable (else as it's all to easy to foresee the headlines when inability to charge leads to injury or death. What is rather more difficult to foresee is any reasonably predictable situation where a failure to charge leads to injury or death. It is no more of a problem than a car running out of fuel. I can well imagine some Treasury officials dismissing those as as "technical details" - to which I'd be inclined to say "indeed, just like the design and roll-out of smart meters themselves". But I (and others) also see a more fundamental question: how to justify much higher prices for kWh for an electric vehicle than kWh for patio heaters, hot tubs, power showers, 65 inch TVs, bitcoin mining etc etc. The price per kWH will be the same for all. The difference in price for the various uses will be government taxes* and duties. Those should be shown on the bill as separate items. * probably 20% VAT as for road fuels. You might argue it's carrying over the differences now between road fuels and other oils. But EVs are being forced on people to save the planet, as part of a program to cut back on energy consumption generally. What makes EVs uniqulety bad when it's all carbon neutral? Road Fuel Duty has little or nothing to do with trying to make everything carbon neutral. It is a source of government income, amounting to about 1% of GDP. The Treasury is determined to replace it with something. It shouldnt be up to Treasury, Boris should be telling those fools that it makes no sense to be using some very expensive mechanism to collect taxes by way of road pricing when it makes no sense to have road pricing when its trucks, not cars that wear out the roads. That will probably be some form of road pricing, but I am simply pointing out that it need not be. |
#142
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More Heavy Trolling by the Senile Octogenarian Nym-Shifting Ozzie Cretin!
On Fri, 23 Apr 2021 08:10:58 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again: It shouldnt be up to Treasury, Boris should be telling those fools that it makes no sense to be using some very expensive mechanism to collect taxes by way of road pricing when it makes no sense to have road pricing when its trucks, not cars that wear out the roads. Now teaching the Brits again about UK politics, just like you taught the Yanks about US politics, you clinically insane trolling senile asshole from Australia? LOL -- Richard addressing senile Rodent Speed: "**** you're thick/pathetic excuse for a troll." MID: |
#143
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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Electric vehicles
On 22/04/2021 17:23, nightjar wrote:
On 20/04/2021 14:58, Steve Walker wrote: On 20/04/2021 11:44, nightjar wrote: ... Disadvantaging the 20% of households with one adult over the age of 65 without internet access; a group that also has the lowest ownership of smart phones, at just 53% I know many pensioners (I am surrounded by them, as we live in a slightly odd road, with a mix of housing - our house is semi-detached, 2-storey, while our neighbours on one side and all down the opposite side of the road have bungalows, plus our relatives, relatives of friends, etc.). Only a tiny proportion drive, but do not have broadband or a smartphone. ... That does demonstrate an urban mindset. It is very difficult to live in rural areas without a car and those are the areas where broadband service is worst. It does not need a high speed connection to login and update a mileage figure. With a smartphone it can always be done on the phone and it can transmit when you happen to be somewhere with a signal. |
#144
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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Electric vehicles
On 22/04/2021 21:39, Robin wrote:
On 22/04/2021 19:38, nightjar wrote: On 22/04/2021 18:24, Robin wrote: e.*** all even more reliable (else as it's all to easy to foresee the headlines when inability to charge leads to injury or death. What is rather more difficult to foresee is any reasonably predictable situation where a failure to charge leads to injury or death. It is no more of a problem than a car running out of fuel. Anyone can see when they drive home if they will have enough fuel to get to work - or to a family member - in an emergency.* They can't see that their car will fail to charge while they are in bed because of a glitch in the system. The price per kWH will be the same for all. The difference in price for the various uses will be government taxes* and duties. Those should be shown on the bill as separate items. * probably 20% VAT as for road fuels. On that basis the price of red diesel is much the same as diesel at any filling station.* I'd love to see you sell that to drivers on a forecourt. There is no tradition of consumer sales on the basis of prices before tax and duties in this country.* And legislation largely forbids their use. You might argue it's carrying over the differences now between road fuels and other oils.* But EVs are being forced on people to save the planet, as part of a program to cut back on energy consumption generally.* What makes EVs uniqulety bad when it's all carbon neutral? Road Fuel Duty has little or nothing to do with trying to make everything carbon neutral. It is a source of government income, amounting to about 1% of GDP. The Treasury is determined to replace it with something. That will probably be some form of road pricing, but I am simply pointing out that it need not be. I did not say that fuel duties have anything to do with the move to net zero.* I said that the switch to EVs does. It's a stretch to call of this "DIY tax policy" so in brief: Fuel duties have a rationale in the external costs of motoring.* They are particularly good at capturing the externalities such as pollution and carbon emissions from petrol and diesel.* But they are less good (= **** poor) when it comes to costs such as congestion, accidents and noise which vary enormously with when and where you drive.* Taxes on fuel just cannot vary with time and place. A tax on electricity for EVs lacks the justification of pollution and carbon emissions. (Or rather, lacks the justification to tax a kWh for EVs more than a kWh for a patio heater) As for other externalities, road pricing is more direct and gives clearer signals to consumers.* Especially if it varies with when and where. But unfairly punishes those who have to travel to specific places at certain times whether they like it or not. |
#145
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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Electric vehicles
"Rod Speed" wrote
"nightjar" wrote in message ... On 22/04/2021 18:24, Robin wrote: On 22/04/2021 17:18, nightjar wrote: On 20/04/2021 18:08, Tim+ wrote: nightjar wrote: On 20/04/2021 13:40, Tim+ wrote: ... ANPR cameras are already all over the country monitoring your movements. What additional privacy issues are you worried about? Not me; the opponents of a road pricing system. Possibly because road pricing would need an awful lot more of them. Which is why a simple mileage based system would be so much easier. We already have a simple mileage based system and one that, unlike a flat distance rate, rewards those who use more efficient vehicles. It is called Road Fuel Duty. All we need to do is extend it to electric vehicles too. Having thought on the matter further, I realise that would be much easier than I first thought. If all public charging points applied the tax at point of sale, the way Road Fuel Duty is applied, the only problem would be collecting the tax due when the vehicle is charged at home. ISTM that could be solved with a very minor modification to the vehicle - the addition of a short range transmitter that only operates when the vehicle is connected to an outside supply. A linked receiver would detect it and notify the house meter that a vehicle was connected. The house meter should then be able to detect the change in use when the vehicle is connected and disconnected and hence know what rate it was charging at. This should work even if the vehicle is connected to 13A socket, rather than a dedicated charging point. The tax can then be collected through the electricity company. No need to track anybody and all revenue collections are completely automatic. Having said that, a road use charge seems to be the solution the government is expect to adopt, probably at much greater cost. Taxing the electricity EVs take is - and always has been - in principle an option. But a little more detail would have helped judge whether that's practicable. As it is I am left to infer that you envisage: a. the addition of a receiver to smart meters and smart meters required everywhere a car is charged - even where they cannot get a signal so are read manually AIUI, all new meters have smart functionality, even if they have to be read manually. It wouldn't make sense to build dumb meters any more. b. the addition of a transmitter to every EV c. the transmitter able to stop the EV accepting the charge unless it shakes hands with the receiver I had not thought of that, but it would be a sensible provision. d. all secure To whatever standard is decided is reasonable for the application. e. all even more reliable (else as it's all to easy to foresee the headlines when inability to charge leads to injury or death. What is rather more difficult to foresee is any reasonably predictable situation where a failure to charge leads to injury or death. It is no more of a problem than a car running out of fuel. I can well imagine some Treasury officials dismissing those as as "technical details" - to which I'd be inclined to say "indeed, just like the design and roll-out of smart meters themselves". But I (and others) also see a more fundamental question: how to justify much higher prices for kWh for an electric vehicle than kWh for patio heaters, hot tubs, power showers, 65 inch TVs, bitcoin mining etc etc. The price per kWH will be the same for all. The difference in price for the various uses will be government taxes* and duties. Those should be shown on the bill as separate items. * probably 20% VAT as for road fuels. You might argue it's carrying over the differences now between road fuels and other oils. But EVs are being forced on people to save the planet, as part of a program to cut back on energy consumption generally. What makes EVs uniqulety bad when it's all carbon neutral? Road Fuel Duty has little or nothing to do with trying to make everything carbon neutral. It is a source of government income, amounting to about 1% of GDP. The Treasury is determined to replace it with something. It shouldnt be up to Treasury, Boris should be telling those fools that it makes no sense to be using some very expensive mechanism to collect taxes by way of road pricing when it makes no sense to have road pricing when its trucks, not cars that wear out the roads. Tho I spose you can make a case that given you lot do collect such a large amount via the fuel tax, it would be politically hard to collect the same amount now without a real political **** fight. Easier to do it by stealth with a tax on electric charging. That will probably be some form of road pricing, but I am simply pointing out that it need not be. |
#146
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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Electric vehicles
On 23/04/2021 00:11, Steve Walker wrote:
On 22/04/2021 21:39, Robin wrote: As for other externalities, road pricing is more direct and gives clearer signals to consumers.* Especially if it varies with when and where. But unfairly punishes those who have to travel to specific places at certain times whether they like it or not. I don't accept "unfair" is the right term when different charges reflect different external costs but it would need selling (and I'd suggest phasing in). And - on the third hand - people who have to drive through an area when it's most congested are the people who stand to gain most from reductions in congestion. -- Robin reply-to address is (intended to be) valid |
#147
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Electric vehicles
On 22/04/2021 17:40, Chris Hogg wrote:
I've not followed this thread all the way, but why not simply have two meters at home, one for the domestic stuff and the other for the car charger? With 'smart' meters becoming widely used, that would be easy enough to set up and be billed for by the supplier and paid by the home owner in the usual way. Apologies if this has already been suggested, but it seems to me to be a fairly simple solution. Right, and how easy to simply plug the while house or selected rings into the car charger circuit using a handy adapter cable. And switch off the 'domestic supply' Unlike diesel, you cant put red dye in the electrons... -- People believe certain stories because everyone important tells them, and people tell those stories because everyone important believes them. Indeed, when a conventional wisdom is at its fullest strength, ones agreement with that conventional wisdom becomes almost a litmus test of ones suitability to be taken seriously. Paul Krugman |
#148
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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Electric vehicles
On 23/04/2021 00:11, Steve Walker wrote:
But unfairly punishes those who have to travel to specific places at certain times whether they like it or not. They can move. Honestly. I despair of the snoflake generation. When I grew up you lived where commuting to work was possible and if you changed jobs you moved house. -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. -- Yogi Berra |
#149
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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Electric vehicles
On 22/04/2021 21:48, charles wrote:
In article , Rod Speed wrote: "bert" wrote in message ... In article , Andrew writes On 17/04/2021 22:50, Robin wrote: *tax policy has been the responsibility of HM Treasury since 2005. So in principle it falls to them to come up with options to fill the gap left by fuel duties. That said, when things go wrong it's never, ever the Treasury's fault. There is always that static, immoveable source of lots of juicy revenue, Britain's stupidly overpriced houses. There's no revenue from a fixed asset like a house. There is actually, council rates and taxes. to the owner they are outgoings. As are all taxes. Asset taxes are iniquitous post WWI socialism ****. The idea was to move all assets ultimately into state ownership so citizens just rented... No more art treasures, stately homes or even cars, tax just owning them...rape the elderly of their savings why dont you? All down to a sort of Plow**** worldview that if anyone owns anything good, it is ipso facto proof that they are a capitalist **** and didn't come by it honestly or deservedly. -- when things get difficult you just have to lie Jean Claud Jüncker |
#150
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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Electric vehicles
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote: On 22/04/2021 17:40, Chris Hogg wrote: I've not followed this thread all the way, but why not simply have two meters at home, one for the domestic stuff and the other for the car charger? With 'smart' meters becoming widely used, that would be easy enough to set up and be billed for by the supplier and paid by the home owner in the usual way. Apologies if this has already been suggested, but it seems to me to be a fairly simple solution. Right, and how easy to simply plug the while house or selected rings into the car charger circuit using a handy adapter cable. And switch off the 'domestic supply' Unlike diesel, you cant put red dye in the electrons... but it's different with green dye, ;-) -- from KT24 in Surrey, England "I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle |
#151
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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Electric vehicles
On 23/04/2021 00:04, Steve Walker wrote:
On 22/04/2021 17:23, nightjar wrote: On 20/04/2021 14:58, Steve Walker wrote: On 20/04/2021 11:44, nightjar wrote: ... Disadvantaging the 20% of households with one adult over the age of 65 without internet access; a group that also has the lowest ownership of smart phones, at just 53% I know many pensioners (I am surrounded by them, as we live in a slightly odd road, with a mix of housing - our house is semi-detached, 2-storey, while our neighbours on one side and all down the opposite side of the road have bungalows, plus our relatives, relatives of friends, etc.). Only a tiny proportion drive, but do not have broadband or a smartphone. ... That does demonstrate an urban mindset. It is very difficult to live in rural areas without a car and those are the areas where broadband service is worst. It does not need a high speed connection to login and update a mileage figure. With a smartphone it can always be done on the phone and it can transmit when you happen to be somewhere with a signal. Which requires smartphone - something that only 53% of people over the age of 65 own. -- Colin Bignell |
#152
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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Electric vehicles
On 23/04/2021 09:29, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
snip Asset taxes are iniquitous post WWI socialism ****. "rates" on property? They were codified as a universal charge in the Poor Relief Act of 1601 (although I accept not a tax on ownership per se as also payable by tenants) -- Robin reply-to address is (intended to be) valid |
#153
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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Electric vehicles
On 22/04/2021 21:39, Robin wrote:
On 22/04/2021 19:38, nightjar wrote: On 22/04/2021 18:24, Robin wrote: e.*** all even more reliable (else as it's all to easy to foresee the headlines when inability to charge leads to injury or death. What is rather more difficult to foresee is any reasonably predictable situation where a failure to charge leads to injury or death. It is no more of a problem than a car running out of fuel. Anyone can see when they drive home if they will have enough fuel to get to work - or to a family member - in an emergency.* They can't see that their car will fail to charge while they are in bed because of a glitch in the system. Any more than a fossil fuel car owner can tell whether or not their car won't start next day because of a flat battery or any of a number of other possible faults. However, although they are currently aimed at the commercial market, the EV equivalent of a spare fuel can - the portable external charger - does exist. It still doesn't answer the question of what reasonable predictable situation might lead to a lack of charge leading to injury or death. The price per kWH will be the same for all. The difference in price for the various uses will be government taxes* and duties. Those should be shown on the bill as separate items. * probably 20% VAT as for road fuels. On that basis the price of red diesel is much the same as diesel at any filling station.* I'd love to see you sell that to drivers on a forecourt.... You don't get itemised billing for forecourt sales. Electricity users do. .... Fuel duties have a rationale in the external costs of motoring... A very modern rationale. When they were introduced, at the start of the 20th century, they were simply a way to increase government income. -- Colin Bignell |
#154
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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Electric vehicles
On 23/04/2021 09:29, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 22/04/2021 21:48, charles wrote: In article , *** Rod Speed wrote: "bert" wrote in message ... In article , Andrew writes On 17/04/2021 22:50, Robin wrote: * *tax policy has been the responsibility of HM Treasury since 2005. So in principle it falls to them to come up with options to fill the gap left by fuel duties.* That said, when things go wrong it's never, ever the Treasury's fault. There is always that static, immoveable source of lots of juicy revenue, Britain's stupidly overpriced houses. There's no revenue from a fixed asset like a house. There is actually, council rates and taxes. to the owner they are outgoings. As are all taxes. Asset taxes are iniquitous post WWI socialism ****. The idea was to move all assets ultimately into state ownership so citizens just rented... No more art treasures, stately homes or even cars, tax just owning them...rape the elderly of their savings why dont you? All down to a sort of Plow**** worldview that if anyone owns anything good, it is ipso facto proof that they are a capitalist **** and didn't come by it honestly or deservedly. So you are happy with the hoarding of food during WW1 that caused real problems for those who didn't have the 'assets' to hog all they could ?. (and the reason why rationing cards were ready-printed for use during WW2). |
#155
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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Electric vehicles
On 23/04/2021 00:04, Steve Walker wrote:
On 22/04/2021 17:23, nightjar wrote: On 20/04/2021 14:58, Steve Walker wrote: On 20/04/2021 11:44, nightjar wrote: ... Disadvantaging the 20% of households with one adult over the age of 65 without internet access; a group that also has the lowest ownership of smart phones, at just 53% I know many pensioners (I am surrounded by them, as we live in a slightly odd road, with a mix of housing - our house is semi-detached, 2-storey, while our neighbours on one side and all down the opposite side of the road have bungalows, plus our relatives, relatives of friends, etc.). Only a tiny proportion drive, but do not have broadband or a smartphone. ... That does demonstrate an urban mindset. It is very difficult to live in rural areas without a car and those are the areas where broadband service is worst. It does not need a high speed connection to login and update a mileage figure. With a smartphone it can always be done on the phone and it can transmit when you happen to be somewhere with a signal. Yet people like turnip and his mate java jive in rural scotchland believe that 'other people' should pay the tens of thousands of pounds required to connect a rural hamlet of a few moaning minnie pensioners, living in million pound houses (that they only paid a few thousand, or less, back in the 50's and 60's) to fast internet. |
#156
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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Electric vehicles
"nightjar" wrote in message ... On 20/04/2021 18:08, Tim+ wrote: nightjar wrote: On 20/04/2021 13:40, Tim+ wrote: ... ANPR cameras are already all over the country monitoring your movements. What additional privacy issues are you worried about? Not me; the opponents of a road pricing system. Possibly because road pricing would need an awful lot more of them. Which is why a simple mileage based system would be so much easier. We already have a simple mileage based system and one that, unlike a flat distance rate, rewards those who use more efficient vehicles. It is called Road Fuel Duty. All we need to do is extend it to electric vehicles too. Having thought on the matter further, I realise that would be much easier than I first thought. If all public charging points applied the tax at point of sale, the way Road Fuel Duty is applied, the only problem would be collecting the tax due when the vehicle is charged at home. ISTM that could be solved with a very minor modification to the vehicle - the addition of a short range transmitter that only operates when the vehicle is connected to an outside supply. A linked receiver would detect it and notify the house meter that a vehicle was connected. The house meter should then be able to detect the change in use when the vehicle is connected and disconnected and hence know what rate it was charging at. This should work even if the vehicle is connected to 13A socket, rather than a dedicated charging point. The tax can then be collected through the electricity company. No need to track anybody and all revenue collections are completely automatic. but every one of the 29 million home in the UK has to have a new electric meter, despite about a fifth of them not owing a car and how would it work at all in an HMO, with a shared electric meter, but only one resident having a car? Or how would it work for people who charge up whilst a work - a use case that's mooted for solving the problem of people not having a the possibility of a charge point at home |
#157
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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Electric vehicles
On 23/04/2021 15:21, tim... wrote:
"nightjar" wrote in message ... On 20/04/2021 18:08, Tim+ wrote: nightjar wrote: On 20/04/2021 13:40, Tim+ wrote: ... ANPR cameras are already all over the country monitoring your movements. What additional privacy issues are you worried about? Not me; the opponents of a road pricing system. Possibly because road pricing would need an awful lot more of them. Which is why a simple mileage based system would be so much easier. We already have a simple mileage based system and one that, unlike a flat distance rate, rewards those who use more efficient vehicles. It is called Road Fuel Duty. All we need to do is extend it to electric vehicles too. Having thought on the matter further, I realise that would be much easier than I first thought. If all public charging points applied the tax at point of sale, the way Road Fuel Duty is applied, the only problem would be collecting the tax due when the vehicle is charged at home. ISTM that could be solved with a very minor modification to the vehicle - the addition of a short range transmitter that only operates when the vehicle is connected to an outside supply. A linked receiver would detect it and notify the house meter that a vehicle was connected. The house meter should then be able to detect the change in use when the vehicle is connected and disconnected and hence know what rate it was charging at. This should work even if the vehicle is connected to 13A socket, rather than a dedicated charging point. The tax can then be collected through the electricity company. No need to track anybody and all revenue collections are completely automatic. but every one of the 29 million home in the UK has to have a new electric meter, despite about a fifth of them not owing a car Why would the people without cars need to have a new meter? They won't have a receiver linked to a car transmitter. In any case, all meters should be replaced on about a 20 year cycle, as they come up for recalibration. and how would it work at all in an HMO, with a shared electric meter, but only one resident having a car? How would that work at present? Surely the non-car owners would want to be able to split off the cost of charging the car from common use electricity. Or how would it work for people who charge up whilst a work - a use case that's mooted for solving the problem of people not having a the possibility of a charge point at home Those can be public charging points, where the tax is paid at point of sale. -- Colin Bignell |
#158
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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Electric vehicles
On 23/04/2021 11:10, Andrew wrote:
On 23/04/2021 00:04, Steve Walker wrote: On 22/04/2021 17:23, nightjar wrote: On 20/04/2021 14:58, Steve Walker wrote: On 20/04/2021 11:44, nightjar wrote: ... Disadvantaging the 20% of households with one adult over the age of 65 without internet access; a group that also has the lowest ownership of smart phones, at just 53% I know many pensioners (I am surrounded by them, as we live in a slightly odd road, with a mix of housing - our house is semi-detached, 2-storey, while our neighbours on one side and all down the opposite side of the road have bungalows, plus our relatives, relatives of friends, etc.). Only a tiny proportion drive, but do not have broadband or a smartphone. ... That does demonstrate an urban mindset. It is very difficult to live in rural areas without a car and those are the areas where broadband service is worst. It does not need a high speed connection to login and update a mileage figure. With a smartphone it can always be done on the phone and it can transmit when you happen to be somewhere with a signal. Yet people like turnip and his mate java jive in rural scotchland believe that 'other people' should pay the tens of thousands of pounds required to connect a rural hamlet of a few moaning minnie pensioners, living in million pound houses (that they only paid a few thousand, or less, back in the 50's and 60's)* to fast internet. Back in the days of the last Labour government, the proposal was to add a sum (then it was 50p per month) onto everyone's broadband bills to fund providing broadband to hard to reach places. As someone who has never voted Labour in a General Election and who lives in a place with a choice of Fibre to the Cabinet and Virgin Media, I thought it a very good idea. It is hardly the fault of country dwellers that government, council and commercial companies have all moved to the internet, making it nigh on essential. |
#159
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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Electric vehicles
"Steve Walker" wrote in message ... On 23/04/2021 11:10, Andrew wrote: On 23/04/2021 00:04, Steve Walker wrote: On 22/04/2021 17:23, nightjar wrote: On 20/04/2021 14:58, Steve Walker wrote: On 20/04/2021 11:44, nightjar wrote: ... Disadvantaging the 20% of households with one adult over the age of 65 without internet access; a group that also has the lowest ownership of smart phones, at just 53% I know many pensioners (I am surrounded by them, as we live in a slightly odd road, with a mix of housing - our house is semi-detached, 2-storey, while our neighbours on one side and all down the opposite side of the road have bungalows, plus our relatives, relatives of friends, etc.). Only a tiny proportion drive, but do not have broadband or a smartphone. ... That does demonstrate an urban mindset. It is very difficult to live in rural areas without a car and those are the areas where broadband service is worst. It does not need a high speed connection to login and update a mileage figure. With a smartphone it can always be done on the phone and it can transmit when you happen to be somewhere with a signal. Yet people like turnip and his mate java jive in rural scotchland believe that 'other people' should pay the tens of thousands of pounds required to connect a rural hamlet of a few moaning minnie pensioners, living in million pound houses (that they only paid a few thousand, or less, back in the 50's and 60's) to fast internet. Back in the days of the last Labour government, the proposal was to add a sum (then it was 50p per month) onto everyone's broadband bills to fund providing broadband to hard to reach places. As someone who has never voted Labour in a General Election and who lives in a place with a choice of Fibre to the Cabinet and Virgin Media, I thought it a very good idea. It is hardly the fault of country dwellers that government, council and commercial companies have all moved to the internet, making it nigh on essential. Corse its not essential, you are free to use your phone. |
#160
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Lonely Obnoxious Cantankerous Auto-contradicting Senile Ozzie Troll Alert!
On Sat, 24 Apr 2021 12:24:07 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again: commercial companies have all moved to the internet, making it nigh on essential. Corse its not essential, you are free to use your phone. In auto-contradicting mode again, you clinically insane senile pest? Portrait of the clinically insane trolling senile asshole from Oz: https://thetravellingtiles.files.wor...b6f9820001.jpg -- John addressing the senile Australian pest: "You are a complete idiot. But you make me larf. LOL" MID: |
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