Lots of post on them but what do they cost

On 16/04/2021 03:58 pm, Broadback wrote:

Lots of post on them but what do they cost

Less than I could pay, but way more than I am prepared to pay.

On 16/04/2021 15:58, Broadback wrote:
Lots of post on them but what do they cost

Depends what you mean by cost.

Plenty of known unknowns - and some unknown unknowns.


PA

On 16/04/2021 15:58, Broadback wrote:
Lots of post on them but what do they cost

To much. They tend to have a limited range and the expensive batteries
have a reported life span of about 8 years. Quite possibly I will not
have to buy one.

--
Michael Chare

Broadback wrote:
Lots of post on them but what do they cost

https://www.carbuyer.co.uk/reviews/r...-electric-cars

Smart EQ ForTwo hatchback
"£6,000 more than the previously available
petrol-powered Smart Fortwo"

priced from £16,850 | Autocar

Skoda Citigo e iV hatchback
"For the price of the base model - around £17,500
theres no other electric car that offers the same
breadth of qualities as the Citigo e iV."

SEAT Mii electric
"82bhp electric motor, 160 miles of range." see prev. item
About £20,300

MINI Electric hatchback
"starts at under £25,000. 145-mile range"

"Prices start at £24,400 (assuming the governments
£3,500 EV grant remains post-April)"

MG ZS EV SUV
"after the Government grant it dips below £25,000. 163 miles of range"

Peugeot e-208 hatchback
211 miles
"The 2021 e-208 price list kicks off at £26,725
for the Active Premium model (cost includes the
£3500 government subsidy)."

Renault ZOE
claimed 245 miles
"Starting from £30,995 after PCG £2500"

Honda e hatchback
137 miles
"its set to cost £26,500 after £3500 grant"

Nissan Leaf hatchback
40kWh battery, 168 miles
£25,995 after some grant

# This entry included as reference point

Tesla Model 3
Standard Range Plus 254 miles £43,490 (£37,340 including £3500 grant)
Long Range 348 miles £49,990
The Performance 329 miles £59,990 (silly and pointless, really)

It's really a matter of "what can you get away with".
You're pricing "cars for work", not "jolly in countryside"

Buying a Model3 LR implies an interest in driving
the countryside, in which case you start looking at
"Fast Charge" options. Note that the cars do not like
Fast Charging, they count the number of times you do it,
and to meet battery warranty, may unceremoniously
disable the feature when you're in the countryside
and plug into the Fast Charger. You have to research
the various car models, and see if obnoxious behaviors
are instituted by software. Cars work best, if charged
overnight on the home charger, at the "non-Fast" rate,
which is plenty fast for overnight. Overnight charging
implies a "Car for work" design.

Pcharge | /\_ === charger peak is quoted value,
| / \__ does not use peak for very long
| / \ A 345kW Taycan does not use 345kW!
+----------- Time

The price has some proportionality to the battery size,
but you can probably spot one of the items being slightly
off the best fit line. When you see that, it probably
means the specs are fabricated, or were annotated later.

The Model3 in China, uses Lithium Iron Phosphate, which should
halve the range and also do something to the price. The
rest of the world would use Lithium Cobalt.

You get better life from the batteries, by not charging
them to 100%. For example, buying extra range and not
using it, implies a larger number of charge cycles.
You would operate the car from 60% downto 0% charge,
rather than 100% downto 40%, which is harder on the battery.
When there is excessive range, you don't fill it all the
way up. When driving the countryside, you "splurge" by
filling it just before the trip starts.

The idea is silly... except when mandated by law or economics
(fuel taxes etc). We have a carbon tax here to improve
our thinking on the topic.

Charging at a filling station on the highway, costs 2X charging
at home. Charging at home is the economy solution. Damn that
"car for work" model.

Paul

On Fri, 16 Apr 2021 15:58:46 +0100, Broadback wrote:

Lots of post on them but what do they cost

How is the government going to recover all the fuel tax, when the the
majority of vehicles are electric.

jon wrote
Broadback wrote

Lots of post on them but what do they cost

How is the government going to recover all the fuel
tax, when the the majority of vehicles are electric.

They wont be, you watch.

Its just another mindless load of bull**** like diesels were before them.

Chris Hogg wrote:
On Sat, 17 Apr 2021 04:42:47 -0000 (UTC), jon wrote:

On Fri, 16 Apr 2021 15:58:46 +0100, Broadback wrote:

Lots of post on them but what do they cost

How is the government going to recover all the fuel tax, when the the
majority of vehicles are electric.

Tax electricity instead.


Unlikely. Too many people bordering on fuel poverty as it is at the moment
and no way of differentiating consumption. More likely an NZ style mileage
tax.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

On 17/04/2021 05:42, jon wrote:
On Fri, 16 Apr 2021 15:58:46 +0100, Broadback wrote:

Lots of post on them but what do they cost

How is the government going to recover all the fuel tax, when the the
majority of vehicles are electric.


They will dye the fuel electrons red and and put a tax on them. A large
fine will be imposed if they find you driving an electric car on any
other coloured electrons, included those dyed green.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On Sat, 17 Apr 2021 15:16:48 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH the trolling senile asshole's latest troll**** unread

--
Sqwertz to Rodent Speed:
"This is just a hunch, but I'm betting you're kinda an argumentative
asshole.
MID:

On Sat, 17 Apr 2021 04:42:47 -0000 (UTC), jon wrote:

On Fri, 16 Apr 2021 15:58:46 +0100, Broadback wrote:

Lots of post on them but what do they cost

How is the government going to recover all the fuel tax, when the the
majority of vehicles are electric.

BEVs are heavier then ICE vehicles; wear on the road is proportional to
fourth power of weight. Lots more potholes!
--
Peter.
The gods will stay away
whilst religions hold sway

On 17/04/2021 08:01, Tim+ wrote:
Chris Hogg wrote:
On Sat, 17 Apr 2021 04:42:47 -0000 (UTC), jon wrote:

On Fri, 16 Apr 2021 15:58:46 +0100, Broadback wrote:

Lots of post on them but what do they cost

How is the government going to recover all the fuel tax, when the the
majority of vehicles are electric.

Tax electricity instead.


Unlikely. Too many people bordering on fuel poverty as it is at the moment
and no way of differentiating consumption. More likely an NZ style mileage
tax.

I would be surprised if electric vehicles do not have an inbuilt ability
to detect when they are on charge and what rate they are charging at. If
so, the means to measure their electricity use is already there and just
needs to be output.


--
Colin Bignell

On Saturday, 17 April 2021 at 09:31:01 UTC+1, PeterC wrote:
On Sat, 17 Apr 2021 04:42:47 -0000 (UTC), jon wrote:

On Fri, 16 Apr 2021 15:58:46 +0100, Broadback wrote:

Lots of post on them but what do they cost

How is the government going to recover all the fuel tax, when the the
majority of vehicles are electric.
BEVs are heavier then ICE vehicles; wear on the road is proportional to
fourth power of weight. Lots more potholes!

Isn't that why HGVs, coaches, buses, etc., do ridiculously more damage than even heavy cars?

On 17/04/2021 10:06, nightjar wrote:
On 17/04/2021 08:01, Tim+ wrote:
Chris Hogg wrote:
On Sat, 17 Apr 2021 04:42:47 -0000 (UTC), jon wrote:

On Fri, 16 Apr 2021 15:58:46 +0100, Broadback wrote:

Lots of post on them but what do they cost

How is the government going to recover all the fuel tax, when the the
majority of vehicles are electric.

Tax electricity instead.


Unlikely.Â* Too many people bordering on fuel poverty as it is at the
moment
and no way of differentiating consumption.Â* More likely an NZ style
mileage
tax.

I would be surprised if electric vehicles do not have an inbuilt ability
to detect when they are on charge and what rate they are charging at. If
so, the means to measure their electricity use is already there and just
needs to be output.


But involves a challenging job of data and then tax collection; and
loses the chance to incentivise reduced and off-peak travel by car.

Plus nerdy issues - eg if you take your EV to Italy, and France and
Italy (or the EU as a whole) have similar taxes.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 17/04/2021 05:42, jon wrote:
On Fri, 16 Apr 2021 15:58:46 +0100, Broadback wrote:

Lots of post on them but what do they cost

How is the government going to recover all the fuel tax, when the the
majority of vehicles are electric.


Tyre tax.

A new tyre duty based on average milege obtainable with reasonable use
of each tyre.

On 17/04/2021 11:05, Tim Streater wrote:
On 17 Apr 2021 at 10:49:43 BST, Andy Bennet wrote:

On 17/04/2021 05:42, jon wrote:
On Fri, 16 Apr 2021 15:58:46 +0100, Broadback wrote:

Lots of post on them but what do they cost

How is the government going to recover all the fuel tax, when the the
majority of vehicles are electric.


Tyre tax.

A new tyre duty based on average milege obtainable with reasonable use
of each tyre.

Need to be a bit careful with that. Otherwise it suddenly becomes profitable
for wide boys to start offering "low-cost" retreads on the sly and for others
to have an extra incentive to jack your car up.


No better or worse than siphoning fuel, doing a garage fill and run, or
useing red diesel.
Any scheme will be open to illegal fiddling by the lower orders of society.

On 17/04/2021 10:08, polygonum_on_google wrote:
On Saturday, 17 April 2021 at 09:31:01 UTC+1, PeterC wrote:
On Sat, 17 Apr 2021 04:42:47 -0000 (UTC), jon wrote:

On Fri, 16 Apr 2021 15:58:46 +0100, Broadback wrote:

Lots of post on them but what do they cost

How is the government going to recover all the fuel tax, when the the
majority of vehicles are electric.
BEVs are heavier then ICE vehicles; wear on the road is proportional to
fourth power of weight. Lots more potholes!

Isn't that why HGVs, coaches, buses, etc., do ridiculously more damage than even heavy cars?

yes.


--
I would rather have questions that cannot be answered...
....than to have answers that cannot be questioned

Richard Feynman

On 17/04/2021 10:49, Andy Bennet wrote:
On 17/04/2021 05:42, jon wrote:
On Fri, 16 Apr 2021 15:58:46 +0100, Broadback wrote:

Lots of post on them but what do they cost

How is the government going to recover all the fuel tax, when the the
majority of vehicles are electric.


Tyre tax.

A new tyre duty based on average milege obtainable with reasonable use
of each tyre.

Creative!

Yup, that would work...


--
I would rather have questions that cannot be answered...
....than to have answers that cannot be questioned

Richard Feynman

"PeterC" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 17 Apr 2021 04:42:47 -0000 (UTC), jon wrote:

On Fri, 16 Apr 2021 15:58:46 +0100, Broadback wrote:

Lots of post on them but what do they cost

How is the government going to recover all the fuel tax, when the the
majority of vehicles are electric.

BEVs are heavier then ICE vehicles; wear on the road is proportional to
fourth power of weight. Lots more potholes!

Nope, furrows in the roads!!!

On 17/04/2021 10:49, Andy Bennet wrote:
On 17/04/2021 05:42, jon wrote:
On Fri, 16 Apr 2021 15:58:46 +0100, Broadback wrote:

Lots of post on them but what do they cost

How is the government going to recover all the fuel tax, when the the
majority of vehicles are electric.


Tyre tax.

A new tyre duty based on average milege obtainable with reasonable use
of each tyre.

What could possibly go wrong when you replace a pay-as-you-go tax most
people don't notice with a lumpy tax that'd probably increase the price
of tyres by around a factor 4*? Start with:

maximum hiss

theft of wheels rockets (gor bless them cordless angle grinders)

smuggling (of dangerous tyres too)

Ministers get blame when cars with bald tyes skid and kill kiddies



*back of envelope assuming new cars account for half new tyres in UK

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

Andy Bennet wrote:

A new tyre duty based on average milege obtainable with reasonable use
of each tyre.

Could you claim a refund for unrepairable punctures in low mileage tyres?

On 17/04/2021 11:49, Andy Burns wrote:
Andy Bennet wrote:

A new tyre duty based on average milege obtainable with reasonable use
of each tyre.

Could you claim a refund for unrepairable punctures in low mileage tyres?

Of course!

On 17/04/2021 11:53, Andy Bennet wrote:
On 17/04/2021 11:49, Andy Burns wrote:
Andy Bennet wrote:

A new tyre duty based on average milege obtainable with reasonable
use of each tyre.

Could you claim a refund for unrepairable punctures in low mileage tyres?

Of course!


Well I suppose a silver lining may be that theft of cable would fall off
as a certain class of criminal switched to nicking tyres to cut and cash in.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 17/04/2021 11:45, Robin wrote:
On 17/04/2021 10:49, Andy Bennet wrote:
On 17/04/2021 05:42, jon wrote:
On Fri, 16 Apr 2021 15:58:46 +0100, Broadback wrote:

Lots of post on them but what do they cost

How is the government going to recover all the fuel tax, when the the
majority of vehicles are electric.


Tyre tax.

A new tyre duty based on average milege obtainable with reasonable use
of each tyre.

What could possibly go wrong when you replace a pay-as-you-go tax most
people don't notice with a lumpy tax that'd probably increase the price
of tyres by around a factor 4*? Start with:

maximum hiss

theft of wheels rockets (gor bless them cordless angle grinders)

smuggling (of dangerous tyres too)

Ministers get blame when cars with bald tyes skid and kill kiddies



*back of envelope assuming new cars account for half new tyres in UK


Each tyre has a microchip embedded in the rubber (like dog chipping) and
is logged at the MOT test. Tyre fitting stations can also update the
cars MOT data so tyres can be locked to car data.

On 17 Apr 2021 at 11:12:21 BST, "Andy Bennet" wrote:

On 17/04/2021 11:05, Tim Streater wrote:
On 17 Apr 2021 at 10:49:43 BST, Andy Bennet wrote:

On 17/04/2021 05:42, jon wrote:
On Fri, 16 Apr 2021 15:58:46 +0100, Broadback wrote:

Lots of post on them but what do they cost

How is the government going to recover all the fuel tax, when the the
majority of vehicles are electric.


Tyre tax.

A new tyre duty based on average milege obtainable with reasonable use
of each tyre.

Need to be a bit careful with that. Otherwise it suddenly becomes profitable
for wide boys to start offering "low-cost" retreads on the sly and for
others
to have an extra incentive to jack your car up.


No better or worse than siphoning fuel, doing a garage fill and run, or
useing red diesel.
Any scheme will be open to illegal fiddling by the lower orders of society.

You will need a government inspector to certify destructive punctures.

--
Roger Hayter

On 17/04/2021 10:28, Robin wrote:
On 17/04/2021 10:06, nightjar wrote:
On 17/04/2021 08:01, Tim+ wrote:
Chris Hogg wrote:
On Sat, 17 Apr 2021 04:42:47 -0000 (UTC), jon wrote:

On Fri, 16 Apr 2021 15:58:46 +0100, Broadback wrote:

Lots of post on them but what do they cost

How is the government going to recover all the fuel tax, when the the
majority of vehicles are electric.

Tax electricity instead.


Unlikely.Â* Too many people bordering on fuel poverty as it is at the
moment
and no way of differentiating consumption.Â* More likely an NZ style
mileage
tax.

I would be surprised if electric vehicles do not have an inbuilt
ability to detect when they are on charge and what rate they are
charging at. If so, the means to measure their electricity use is
already there and just needs to be output.


But involves a challenging job of data and then tax collection; and
loses the chance to incentivise reduced and off-peak travel by car.

Plus nerdy issues - eg if you take your EV to Italy, and France and
Italy (or the EU as a whole) have similar taxes.

I hope that they go for a straight electricity used tax or a straight
mileage tax. Effectively a direct replacement for fuel duty. I do not
agree with varying the rates at different times, in different areas,
etc. as it simply penalises those that have little choice about where
and when to travel.

The majority of those in work are typically restricted as to when they
can travel and of course where from and to. Their only choice then
becomes mode of transport. Car sharing can work, but many people start
and finish over a range of times, need to stop off at places on the way
there or back or need to be able to rush off at zero notice if they get
a call from school or a dependent relative; buses and trains are very
limiting in their timings, routes, etc.; bikes are no good for those
physically unable to use them, who need to carry things, who need to
arrive fresh and dry or who ned to travel longer distances (perhaps by
motorway).

I have the "choice" of car (20 minutes each way) or train/bus (1-1/2 to
2 hours each way ... allowing for them not connected to the times I need
to arrive and leave, connections between them, etc.) Not using the car
would simply mean having little time to get anything done in the
evening, to spend with my family or to go out. Life would just turn into
a constant round of getting up, going to work, coming home, cooking and
cleaning, going to bed ready to get up early the next morning. That's no
life.

On 17/04/2021 08:36, alan_m wrote:
On 17/04/2021 05:42, jon wrote:
On Fri, 16 Apr 2021 15:58:46 +0100, Broadback wrote:

Lots of post on them but what do they cost

How is the government going to recover all the fuel tax, when the the
majority of vehicles are electric.


They will dye the fuel electrons red and and put a tax on them. A large
fine will be imposed if they find you driving an electric car on any
other coloured electrons, included those dyed green.


Not blue, brown, black or grey ?

On 17/04/2021 11:45, Robin wrote:
On 17/04/2021 10:49, Andy Bennet wrote:
On 17/04/2021 05:42, jon wrote:
On Fri, 16 Apr 2021 15:58:46 +0100, Broadback wrote:

Lots of post on them but what do they cost

How is the government going to recover all the fuel tax, when the the
majority of vehicles are electric.


Tyre tax.

A new tyre duty based on average milege obtainable with reasonable use
of each tyre.

What could possibly go wrong when you replace a pay-as-you-go tax most
people don't notice with a lumpy tax that'd probably increase the price
of tyres by around a factor 4*? Start with:

maximum hiss

theft of wheels rockets (gor bless them cordless angle grinders)

smuggling (of dangerous tyres too)

Ministers get blame when cars with bald tyes skid and kill kiddies



*back of envelope assuming new cars account for half new tyres in UK

They will stick GPS in every car and couple it up to a credit card in
order for the ****ing thing to respond to the go pedal


--
"Socialist governments traditionally do make a financial mess. They
always run out of other people's money. It's quite a characteristic of them"

Margaret Thatcher

On 17/04/2021 11:53, Andy Bennet wrote:
On 17/04/2021 11:49, Andy Burns wrote:
Andy Bennet wrote:

A new tyre duty based on average milege obtainable with reasonable
use of each tyre.

Could you claim a refund for unrepairable punctures in low mileage tyres?

Of course!

The tyre fitters, clam back the VAT on unworn tyres.

--
"Socialist governments traditionally do make a financial mess. They
always run out of other people's money. It's quite a characteristic of them"

Margaret Thatcher

On 17/04/2021 13:31, Steve Walker wrote:
I have the "choice" of car (20 minutes each way) or train/bus (1-1/2 to
2 hours each way ... allowing for them not connected to the times I need
to arrive and leave, connections between them, etc.) Not using the car
would simply mean having little time to get anything done in the
evening, to spend with my family or to go out. Life would just turn into
a constant round of getting up, going to work, coming home, cooking and
cleaning, going to bed ready to get up early the next morning. That's no
life.

Before cars, people simply lived on bus or train routes. My father
bought a house within easy walking - maybe a mile - of a train station
with 45 minute trains to the part of London he worked in.

But relax, we are all zoomed out now. outer Hebrides and optical fibre.


--
Those who want slavery should have the grace to name it by its proper
name. They must face the full meaning of that which they are advocating
or condoning; the full, exact, specific meaning of collectivism, of its
logical implications, of the principles upon which it is based, and of
the ultimate consequences to which these principles will lead. They must
face it, then decide whether this is what they want or not.

Ayn Rand.

In message , The Natural Philosopher
writes
On 17/04/2021 11:45, Robin wrote:
On 17/04/2021 10:49, Andy Bennet wrote:
On 17/04/2021 05:42, jon wrote:
On Fri, 16 Apr 2021 15:58:46 +0100, Broadback wrote:

Lots of post on them but what do they cost

How is the government going to recover all the fuel tax, when the the
majority of vehicles are electric.


Tyre tax.

A new tyre duty based on average milege obtainable with reasonable
use of each tyre.
What could possibly go wrong when you replace a pay-as-you-go tax
most people don't notice with a lumpy tax that'd probably increase
the price of tyres by around a factor 4*? Start with:
maximum hiss
theft of wheels rockets (gor bless them cordless angle grinders)
smuggling (of dangerous tyres too)
Ministers get blame when cars with bald tyes skid and kill kiddies
*back of envelope assuming new cars account for half new tyres in
UK

They will stick GPS in every car and couple it up to a credit card in
order for the ****ing thing to respond to the go pedal

That seems unavoidable! How practical is it?

A couple of Jack Reacher novels refer to police recording their car
journeys via gps information.



--
Tim Lamb

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 17/04/2021 13:31, Steve Walker wrote:
I have the "choice" of car (20 minutes each way) or train/bus (1-1/2 to 2
hours each way ... allowing for them not connected to the times I need to
arrive and leave, connections between them, etc.) Not using the car would
simply mean having little time to get anything done in the evening, to
spend with my family or to go out. Life would just turn into a constant
round of getting up, going to work, coming home, cooking and cleaning,
going to bed ready to get up early the next morning. That's no life.

Before cars, people simply lived on bus or train routes.

before cars

people lived within walking distance of work

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 17/04/2021 11:45, Robin wrote:
On 17/04/2021 10:49, Andy Bennet wrote:
On 17/04/2021 05:42, jon wrote:
On Fri, 16 Apr 2021 15:58:46 +0100, Broadback wrote:

Lots of post on them but what do they cost

How is the government going to recover all the fuel tax, when the the
majority of vehicles are electric.


Tyre tax.

A new tyre duty based on average milege obtainable with reasonable use
of each tyre.

What could possibly go wrong when you replace a pay-as-you-go tax most
people don't notice with a lumpy tax that'd probably increase the price
of tyres by around a factor 4*? Start with:

maximum hiss

theft of wheels rockets (gor bless them cordless angle grinders)

smuggling (of dangerous tyres too)

Ministers get blame when cars with bald tyes skid and kill kiddies



*back of envelope assuming new cars account for half new tyres in UK

They will stick GPS in every car and couple it up to a credit card in
order for the ****ing thing to respond to the go pedal


I know you posted that as a laugh

but personally I think the credit card in the slot is a much better way of
paying per mile than simply transparently billing the keeper's bank account.

There are lots of scenarios where payment for use of a vehicle, other than
by the keeper, is required.

Starting with the rental market, where having to post process the monthly
bill back to the 20 people who rented this car this month is going to add on
a considerable admin fee from the rental company for each hire.

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 17/04/2021 11:53, Andy Bennet wrote:
On 17/04/2021 11:49, Andy Burns wrote:
Andy Bennet wrote:

A new tyre duty based on average milege obtainable with reasonable use
of each tyre.

Could you claim a refund for unrepairable punctures in low mileage
tyres?

Of course!

The tyre fitters, clam back the VAT on unworn tyres.

they do what??????????

On Sat, 17 Apr 2021 20:25:58 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH yet more of the trolling senile asshole's latest troll**** unread


--
Richard addressing senile Rodent Speed:
"**** you're thick/pathetic excuse for a troll."
MID:

On 17/04/2021 14:56, tim... wrote:


"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 17/04/2021 11:45, Robin wrote:
On 17/04/2021 10:49, Andy Bennet wrote:
On 17/04/2021 05:42, jon wrote:
On Fri, 16 Apr 2021 15:58:46 +0100, Broadback wrote:

Lots of post on them but what do they cost

How is the government going to recover all the fuel tax, when the the
majority of vehicles are electric.


Tyre tax.

A new tyre duty based on average milege obtainable with reasonable
use of each tyre.

What could possibly go wrong when you replace a pay-as-you-go tax
most people don't notice with a lumpy tax that'd probably increase
the price of tyres by around a factor 4*? Start with:

maximum hiss

theft of wheels rockets (gor bless them cordless angle grinders)

smuggling (of dangerous tyres too)

Ministers get blame when cars with bald tyes skid and kill kiddies



*back of envelope assuming new cars account for half new tyres in UK

They will stick GPS in every car and couple it up to a credit card in
order for the ****ing thing to respond to the go pedal


I know you posted that as a laugh

not entirely.


but personally I think the credit card in the slot is a much better way
of paying per mile than simply transparently billing the keeper's bank
account.

There are lots of scenarios where payment for use of a vehicle, other
than by the keeper, is required.

Starting with the rental market, where having to post process the
monthly bill back to the 20 people who rented this car this month is
going to add on a considerable admin fee from the rental company for
each hire.


I think it will come down to that. then the internet crashes and
everyone is ****ed






--
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign,
that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."

Jonathan Swift.

On 17/04/2021 14:47, tim... wrote:


"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 17/04/2021 13:31, Steve Walker wrote:
I have the "choice" of car (20 minutes each way) or train/bus (1-1/2
to 2 hours each way ... allowing for them not connected to the times
I need to arrive and leave, connections between them, etc.) Not using
the car would simply mean having little time to get anything done in
the evening, to spend with my family or to go out. Life would just
turn into a constant round of getting up, going to work, coming home,
cooking and cleaning, going to bed ready to get up early the next
morning. That's no life.

Before cars, people simply lived on bus or train routes.

before cars

people lived within walking distance of work

Yes and lived **** lives because they could not get decently paid jobs
or spent many hours of the day travelling back and forth.

How is an engineering design company, needing qualified and experienced
engineers and designers, to work if it can only recruit people that can
walk to the office? What when a worker's spouse needs to be at their
employment in another location? What when work and affordable housing
are not available in the same location? What when someone changes jobs
and their spouse must change theirs and their children change schools?
What when suitable work is some distance away, but you have caring
responsibilities that require you to live where you are?

Just accept that work, home, family cannot easily all be in the same
location these days and people have to travel - unless we are all to go
back to a pre-industrial, agrarian society.

On 17/04/2021 15:27, Steve Walker wrote:
On 17/04/2021 14:47, tim... wrote:


"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 17/04/2021 13:31, Steve Walker wrote:
I have the "choice" of car (20 minutes each way) or train/bus (1-1/2
to 2 hours each way ... allowing for them not connected to the times
I need to arrive and leave, connections between them, etc.) Not
using the car would simply mean having little time to get anything
done in the evening, to spend with my family or to go out. Life
would just turn into a constant round of getting up, going to work,
coming home, cooking and cleaning, going to bed ready to get up
early the next morning. That's no life.

Before cars, people simply lived on bus or train routes.

before cars

people lived within walking distance of work

Yes and lived **** lives because they could not get decently paid jobs
or spent many hours of the day travelling back and forth.

How is an engineering design company, needing qualified and experienced
engineers and designers, to work if it can only recruit people that can
walk to the office?

By building houses for them.


^What when a worker's spouse needs to be at their
employment

Workers spouses didnt need employment. They kept the home and looked
after the children and actsed as community policemen as well.


in another location? What when work and affordable housing
are not available in the same location?

Then you move the work or pay the workers more. Why the **** do you
think that the northern industrial towns even exist? They are built
where water power or coal power and sheep were not far away. People
moved there or starved.


What when someone changes jobs
and their spouse must change theirs and their children change schools?

People didnt do that, then.

What when suitable work is some distance away, but you have caring
responsibilities that require you to live where you are?

Then move
Or get another job

Just accept that work, home, family cannot easily all be in the same
location these days and people have to travel - unless we are all to go
back to a pre-industrial, agrarian society.

********. The industrial age had **** all transport. You mean
retreating from a post war consumer society rat race. Well it would be
no bad thing


and with the internet work doesn't need to be further away than a laptop


--
"First, find out who are the people you can not criticise. They are your
oppressors."
- George Orwell

On 17/04/2021 10:28, Robin wrote:
On 17/04/2021 10:06, nightjar wrote:
On 17/04/2021 08:01, Tim+ wrote:
Chris Hogg wrote:
On Sat, 17 Apr 2021 04:42:47 -0000 (UTC), jon wrote:

On Fri, 16 Apr 2021 15:58:46 +0100, Broadback wrote:

Lots of post on them but what do they cost

How is the government going to recover all the fuel tax, when the the
majority of vehicles are electric.

Tax electricity instead.


Unlikely.Â* Too many people bordering on fuel poverty as it is at the
moment
and no way of differentiating consumption.Â* More likely an NZ style
mileage
tax.

I would be surprised if electric vehicles do not have an inbuilt
ability to detect when they are on charge and what rate they are
charging at. If so, the means to measure their electricity use is
already there and just needs to be output.


But involves a challenging job of data and then tax collection;

Not really. It would effectively be a specialised smart meter, fitted to
the car. Payment could be through your electricity bill.

and
loses the chance to incentivise reduced and off-peak travel by car.

Assuming that would even be needed. Congestion charges are already an
established way to deal with traffic congestion, while the whole point
of getting people to move to electric cars is the claimed reduction in
pollution.

Plus nerdy issues - eg if you take your EV to Italy, and France and
Italy (or the EU as a whole) have similar taxes.

That could be overcome by allowing the in-car meter to recognise when it
is being charged from a public charging point. That would allow the tax
to be collected at point of sale, with the meter not registering that
electricity charge as taxable. Anybody travelling abroad is likely to be
using public charging points, unless they have a second home. In that
case, a way of detecting which home the vehicle was at would allow the
right electricity bill to be charged.

Given a possible loss of £28bn a year revenue, HMRC will come up with a
way to overcome any obstacles you can think of.

--
Colin Bignell

On 17/04/2021 16:08, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

and with the internet work doesn't need to be further away than a laptop



real work doesn't involve the internet.