wrote in message


Therefore, I am looking for plans to build a horse drawn vehicle out
of wood and the axel and wheels/tires from one of the old farm
implements I got laying around. Does anyone know where to get some
plans?

This message may not be exactly on topic to some of the newsgroups I
am posting to, but is related.

The Amish still use carriages. You may be able to find information in an
Amish area and even buy some of the parts you need.

http://www.mcinnisindustries.com/buggy_nf.html

http://www.motherearthnews.com/libra...rse_and_Buggy_

Horses can't draw.

On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 13:45:23 -0500, wrote:

I need plans for horse drawn vehicles.


You do realize that horse will cost more per mile than any car you
own, right? (feed, cleaning, vet, and maintenance...)

Get a bicycle! They are the most efficient form of transportation, do
not polute, are fast (once you are in shape, a bicycle can be almost
as fast as a car), low cost, low maintanance, etc. I probably bicycle
twice as many miles every week than I drive.

wrote:

I need plans for horse drawn vehicles.

I live in a rural area, and am about 5 miles from town.

First I would make sure that you can legally drive that horse
into that town and park it at the store.

Here in Canada there is a guy in the Maritimes fighting a community
that doesn't want him coming into town on horseback and riding
the horse through the drive through of the local Tim Hortons.

Instead of getting a camera crew out and taping him buying his
double double and having the corporation turning it into a commercial
the local manager has pressed charges against the individual because
of the horse patties that get left behind.

I believe the horse owner has been to court once and is fighting for
his right to ride the horse into town.

Out here in Alberta if my feeble mind is correct we had a similar
situation some years ago of someone who wanted to ride his horse into
the closest town and would tie it up to a parking meter while he went
into a pub for a beer.

GOOD LUCK.... I think it would be interesting if someone took their car
or van and hitched it up to a team of horses and went for a ride into
town on the freeways.... just like people had to do in the depression.

Perhaps you might consider just gutting an old hulk of everything
that's not necessary......That would make more of an impression than
a cute looking or quaint horse drawn vehicle.

How about an old 1960 Volkswagen beetle. or Chevy Bel Air.

wrote:
I need plans for horse drawn vehicles.

A Google search for horse buggy plans turned up lots of hits, including
these:

http://www.mcinnisindustries.com/buggy.html
http://tinyurl.com/9sg9k

It'd also be pretty easy to just start building one from scratch with
some used mountain bike wheelsets - assuming you're not planning on
carrying more than a couple or three hundred pounds.

R

wrote:
Therefore, I am looking for plans to build a horse drawn vehicle out
of wood and the axel and wheels/tires from one of the old farm
implements I got laying around. Does anyone know where to get some
plans?

Use the best pneumatic tire trailer running gear you can get.

Be kind to your horse and your spine.

Welded steel tube makes for a lightweight frame for a small horsedrawn
vehicle.

....Brock.

Adjusted for inflation, gasoline now costs less than it did 20 years
ago.
NPR, as I remember it, said three days ago that the cost of a barrel of
oil in 1970 adjusted for inflation would be $90.00 today.
I ran my own test, remembering gasoline as $0.35 per gallon in 1958.
Adjusted for inflation, it would be slightly less than $3.00 per gallon
today.
TB

wrote in message
...
On 14 Aug 2005 14:44:48 -0700, wrote:

Adjusted for inflation, gasoline now costs less than it did 20 years
ago.
NPR, as I remember it, said three days ago that the cost of a barrel of
oil in 1970 adjusted for inflation would be $90.00 today.
I ran my own test, remembering gasoline as $0.35 per gallon in 1958.
Adjusted for inflation, it would be slightly less than $3.00 per gallon
today.

Doesn't matter. All that matters is how long did you have to work in 1970
to buy
a gallon of gas and how long do you have to work now.

When I started driving in 1963 gas was about 25¢ and minimum wage was about
!.37 per hour. An hour at minimum wage bought 5.48 gallons Good wages in
a factory were about $4. skilled or management was about $5. Wages are
maybe 6X that time, if that is true, gas should be $1.50. Minimum wage
today buys 3 gallons.

wrote in message
...
I need plans for horse drawn vehicles.

I am serious about this. With gas being in the $2.50 to $3.00 a
gallon range, and likely to get much higher, I am looking for ways to
avoid having to buy the stuff. I have already done all the usual
things, such as tune up the car, properly inflate tires, use the car
(which gets better milage), than the pickup truck, whenever possible,
and avoid unnecessary trips to the store, etc.

All of this helps, but I want to cut back even more. Not only is my
wallet suffering, but I am real tired of supporting these corrupt oil
companies who are raping us financially. If oil is in low supply, why
not limit us, rather then continually raising the price. I already
know that limiting gas would not affect most average drivers, but
would only affect those who waste gas with "performance" cars, large
gas guzzling boats, and other unnecessary machinery.

Anyhow, my point in this message is not to discuss oil prices, but
rather to find alternatives to using it. I already own horses, which
until now were pets and for recreational riding. But in the past,
before motorized vehicles, people relied on their horses for
transportation. I think this is going to become a reality again for
many of us. While I realize I will have to continue to pay these
crooks for their oil if I need to travel distances, I know that half
of my gasoline usage is for short trips to town. This is where a
horse drawn vehicle would help. Whether it's a trip to the grocery
store, or any other short trip to town, I can use the horse. I live
in a rural area, and am about 5 miles from town. This is an ideal
distance for a horse drawn vehicle, and a total 10 mile per day trip
is not too much for the horse, and seems like it would be enjoyable
too.

Therefore, I am looking for plans to build a horse drawn vehicle out
of wood and the axel and wheels/tires from one of the old farm
implements I got laying around. Does anyone know where to get some
plans?

This message may not be exactly on topic to some of the newsgroups I
am posting to, but is related.

Thanks

Mark


Assuming for a moment that you are serious, please consider all the
excellent posts to date. I will repeat only one of them. Gas is a lot
cheaper than feeding a horse.

Now on to reality 101. Horses that are saddle broken are generally not
harness broken or trained. They frequently do not have the physical stature
to pull. There are riding horses, work horses and carriage horses. The
latter two are somewhat interchangeable.

The carriage will be the least of your expenses in money or time. The
harnesses will be expensive and must be maintained with frequent care and
oiling. Rivets and tears must be replaced and you will need a nice dry
place to store all this stuff. The time required to harness your horse(s)
will add 1-1/12 hours to each trip you take and if you are a responsible
owner another hour per trip to care for your horse.

Colbyt

"Matt" wrote in message
oups.com...
Horses can't draw.


You've never watched Mr. Ed, have you?

Edwin Pawlowski said (on or about) 08/14/2005 18:37:
wrote in message
...

On 14 Aug 2005 14:44:48 -0700, wrote:


Adjusted for inflation, gasoline now costs less than it did 20 years
ago.
NPR, as I remember it, said three days ago that the cost of a barrel of
oil in 1970 adjusted for inflation would be $90.00 today.
I ran my own test, remembering gasoline as $0.35 per gallon in 1958.
Adjusted for inflation, it would be slightly less than $3.00 per gallon
today.

Doesn't matter. All that matters is how long did you have to work in 1970
to buy
a gallon of gas and how long do you have to work now.


When I started driving in 1963 gas was about 25¢ and minimum wage was about
!.37 per hour. An hour at minimum wage bought 5.48 gallons Good wages in
a factory were about $4. skilled or management was about $5. Wages are
maybe 6X that time, if that is true, gas should be $1.50. Minimum wage
today buys 3 gallons.


Where were you that minimum was that low? I started working a mere 4 years later (1967) in New York (State not city) and was paid $1.15 (which was less than minimum by $0.10 because I was under 18).

Hmmmm.

Yes, I stand corrected.

But there is still the issue of the horse needing to understand some
fairly complex engineering principles. For example, to the horse,
square wheels would probably seem a very good idea. Also, the plans the
horse draws will probably call for humans to pull it, and horse to ride
in it.

I'm sorry, but I must insist that the OP would be better off getting
his vehicle specifications drawn up by a human. Horse drawn vehicles
are simply too impracticle to be feasible.

impracticle?

Holy hell.

"Elmo" wrote in message

Where were you that minimum was that low? I started working a mere 4
years later (1967) in New York (State not city) and was paid $1.15 (which
was less than minimum by $0.10 because I was under 18).

Could have been $1.15, but I thought it was $1.37 based on a couple of fact
that I am sure of. That was in PA. I don't recall if is was the state or
Federal minimum.

Colbyt wrote:
wrote in message
...

I need plans for horse drawn vehicles.

I am serious about this. With gas being in the $2.50 to $3.00 a
gallon range, and likely to get much higher, I am looking for ways to
avoid having to buy the stuff. I have already done all the usual
things, such as tune up the car, properly inflate tires, use the car
(which gets better milage), than the pickup truck, whenever possible,
and avoid unnecessary trips to the store, etc.

All of this helps, but I want to cut back even more. Not only is my
wallet suffering, but I am real tired of supporting these corrupt oil
companies who are raping us financially. If oil is in low supply, why
not limit us, rather then continually raising the price. I already
know that limiting gas would not affect most average drivers, but
would only affect those who waste gas with "performance" cars, large
gas guzzling boats, and other unnecessary machinery.

Anyhow, my point in this message is not to discuss oil prices, but
rather to find alternatives to using it. I already own horses, which
until now were pets and for recreational riding. But in the past,
before motorized vehicles, people relied on their horses for
transportation. I think this is going to become a reality again for
many of us. While I realize I will have to continue to pay these
crooks for their oil if I need to travel distances, I know that half
of my gasoline usage is for short trips to town. This is where a
horse drawn vehicle would help. Whether it's a trip to the grocery
store, or any other short trip to town, I can use the horse. I live
in a rural area, and am about 5 miles from town. This is an ideal
distance for a horse drawn vehicle, and a total 10 mile per day trip
is not too much for the horse, and seems like it would be enjoyable
too.

Therefore, I am looking for plans to build a horse drawn vehicle out
of wood and the axel and wheels/tires from one of the old farm
implements I got laying around. Does anyone know where to get some
plans?

This message may not be exactly on topic to some of the newsgroups I
am posting to, but is related.

Thanks

Mark



Assuming for a moment that you are serious, please consider all the
excellent posts to date. I will repeat only one of them. Gas is a lot
cheaper than feeding a horse.

Now on to reality 101. Horses that are saddle broken are generally not
harness broken or trained. They frequently do not have the physical stature
to pull. There are riding horses, work horses and carriage horses. The
latter two are somewhat interchangeable.

The carriage will be the least of your expenses in money or time. The
harnesses will be expensive and must be maintained with frequent care and
oiling. Rivets and tears must be replaced and you will need a nice dry
place to store all this stuff. The time required to harness your horse(s)
will add 1-1/12 hours to each trip you take and if you are a responsible
owner another hour per trip to care for your horse.

Colbyt



I recall reading more than once that when the automobile started making
inroads it was heralded in big cities as a polution reducer.

That was because of the cost of the armies of guys with shovels and
wheeled barrels who had to clean the horse **** off the streets every day.

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"Truth exists; only falsehood has to be invented."

wrote:

I need plans for horse drawn vehicles.

I am serious about this. With gas being in the $2.50 to $3.00 a
gallon range, and likely to get much higher, I am looking for ways to
avoid having to buy the stuff. I have already done all the usual
things, such as tune up the car, properly inflate tires, use the car
(which gets better milage), than the pickup truck, whenever possible,
and avoid unnecessary trips to the store, etc.

All of this helps, but I want to cut back even more. Not only is my
wallet suffering, but I am real tired of supporting these corrupt oil
companies who are raping us financially. If oil is in low supply, why
not limit us, rather then continually raising the price. I already
know that limiting gas would not affect most average drivers, but
would only affect those who waste gas with "performance" cars, large
gas guzzling boats, and other unnecessary machinery.

Anyhow, my point in this message is not to discuss oil prices, but
rather to find alternatives to using it. I already own horses, which
until now were pets and for recreational riding. But in the past,
before motorized vehicles, people relied on their horses for
transportation. I think this is going to become a reality again for
many of us. While I realize I will have to continue to pay these
crooks for their oil if I need to travel distances, I know that half
of my gasoline usage is for short trips to town. This is where a
horse drawn vehicle would help. Whether it's a trip to the grocery
store, or any other short trip to town, I can use the horse. I live
in a rural area, and am about 5 miles from town. This is an ideal
distance for a horse drawn vehicle, and a total 10 mile per day trip
is not too much for the horse, and seems like it would be enjoyable
too.

Therefore, I am looking for plans to build a horse drawn vehicle out
of wood and the axel and wheels/tires from one of the old farm
implements I got laying around. Does anyone know where to get some
plans?

This message may not be exactly on topic to some of the newsgroups I
am posting to, but is related.

Thanks

Mark


Have you contacted any Amish? I believe they use some excellent
fiberglass bodied buggies these days.

Or, try this site:

http://www.mcinnisindustries.com/buggy_nf.html

HTH,

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"Truth exists; only falsehood has to be invented."

Some posters here have some good ideas, particularly the leads to the
Amish. But consider that many materials available today were not
accessable to the 1800's and befo Aluminum, fiberglass, air/oil
shocks and struts, plastic composites and pneumatic tires, to name a
few.
Another source for plans might be old patent documents from the
1800's. The US patent office is pretty lame about getting these older
documents online, but the UK and European Patent offices are rich
sources of ideas for you.(you can find them on Google, and the
USPTO.gov has links to them) If you decide to go ahead with your
project, would you do us the favor of sharing your research? You could
build a good website that many will find interesting and useful. Best
wishes with your project.-Jitney
P.S. Where are you geographically?
P.P.S. to our friend in Canada:
Out here in Alberta if my feeble mind is correct we had a similar
situation some years ago of someone who wanted to ride his horse into
the closest town and would tie it up to a parking meter while he went
into a pub for a beer.(snip) Could they get him for drunk
horseriding?-J.

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
wrote in message
Therefore, I am looking for plans to build a horse drawn vehicle out
of wood and the axel and wheels/tires from one of the old farm
implements I got laying around. Does anyone know where to get some
plans?

The Amish still use carriages. You may be able to find information in an
Amish area and even buy some of the parts you need.
http://www.mcinnisindustries.com/buggy_nf.html

http://www.motherearthnews.com/libra...orse_and_Buggy

That's exactly what I was going to suggest. I don't know where you
live, but if you're anywhere near an Amish community, I'll bet you
could find what you're looking for. There are large Amish communities
in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania; Geauga County, Ohio; and Holmes
County, Ohio. There are many others as well, but those are the ones I'm
familiar with. About two months ago, I visited the Amish community in
Geauga County, Ohio, in Middlefield and surrounding towns. I saw
several horse-drawn buggies up close, and they are much smaller than I
realized. I do have to warn you that there have been several highly
publicized, serious accidents between gasoline-powered cars and
horse-drawn buggies. Of course, the passengers in the buggies are the
ones most seriously hurt or killed. These accidents occurred in the
Amish towns, where the buggies are a familiar sight, and other
residents know they should slow down when they approach a buggy. If you
do decide to go ahead with your plans, I do hope everyone in your town
knows enough to drive very carefully when approaching your vehicle.

wrote:

P.P.S. to our friend in Canada:

Could they get him for drunk horseriding?

I do believe they could.

There have been numerous humerous types of stories on both sides of the
border where people riding things like riding lawnmowers have been
charged with D.U.I. type offences.

In this case because it is not a motorized vehicle they would probably
have charged him with public intoxication.

When I was studying history in college, I remember reading old
frontier-day diaries, and more than one story about dependable horses
that knew the way home in the dark for their drunken riders. There was
even one about a stolen horse that took his inebriated rider back to
the horse's original owner...-Jitney

wrote:

My town has a few regulars that RIDE their horse into town, and there
is a hitching post by the feed mill, which is a few blocks from the
downtown. I know most of the cops, and they would not be bothered if
I used that same hitching post. This is just a small rural town.

Wooooo Hooooo...... Sounds like you have it made in the shade.

Take pictures as the project develops and post to a website.

Please and thank you.

I'm sure that many in this group would be interested in following your
project right up to the first trip to town and that hitching post.

On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 13:45:23 -0500, wrote:

I need plans for horse drawn vehicles.

I am serious about this. With gas being in the $2.50 to $3.00 a
gallon range, and likely to get much higher, I am looking for ways to
avoid having to buy the stuff. I have already done all the usual
things, such as tune up the car, properly inflate tires, use the car
(which gets better milage), than the pickup truck, whenever possible,
and avoid unnecessary trips to the store, etc.

*sigh* I was wondering when this tired old idea was going to come
around again.

Horse drawn transportation is much more expensive than gasoline. Many
trees died to publish all the research on this topic the LAST time
gasoline got relatively expensive. Feeding and maintaining a work
horse is vastly different than the pleasure horse(s) you apparently
have now. I suggest doing some research before you go off making
plans.

If you're interested in low cost local transportation, why don't you
buy or build an electric vehicle conversion? Ignoring the econazi
rants about zero emissions (it isn't, EVs simply shift the point of
emissions to the power plant stack), an EV is probably the cheapest
practical transportation out there that will keep you out of the
weather.

A well designed amateur conversion will achieve an energy efficiency
of from 500 to 600 watt-hours per mile. Electricity around here is
5.2 cents per kwh so the cost per mile would be about 3 cents,
allowing for charging losses. You can do a conversion for less than
it would cost to build a wagon. Maybe $4k for all new parts. Half
that for used/carefully purchased parts. An even better deal is to
buy an already-converted vehicle, as they have little resale value.

A small pickup (chevy S10 for example) is probably the easiest and
most practical vehicle to convert because there is lots of room under
and in the bed for batteries plus the bed can be used for actual work.

With the present state of the battery art, affordable EVs will go from
60 to 100 miles on a charge. Practical for most around-town driving.

I drive a small EV around town (see my web site) because I'm a cheap
b*stard and because I don't like to drive my gas car on short trips. I
have about $1500 in the car including motor and controller upgrades. I
have a power meter on my charger and can verify the cheapness of this
car's operation. Supercheap transportation. And no horse sh*t to
shovel!

John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN

In article ,
Shiver wrote:

wrote:

P.P.S. to our friend in Canada:

Could they get him for drunk horseriding?

I do believe they could.

There have been numerous humerous types of stories on both sides of the
border where people riding things like riding lawnmowers have been
charged with D.U.I. type offences.

In this case because it is not a motorized vehicle they would probably
have charged him with public intoxication.

I've heard of several (several being a number larger than three but
probably smaller than ten) cases of OUIL - Operating Under the Influence
of Liquor - tickets being issued to persons on horseback, and the
conviction stuck.

One was to a buddy of mine on Mackinac Island. You can also get an OUIL
while riding a bicycle on the Island, though it usually takes being
literally falling-down drunk to accomplish this feat.

I've never personally seen it, but local anecdotes suggest that if there
were such a thing as a drinking amishman (wink wink, nudge nudge) and he
were to hitch up his buggy and go out while schnockered, he could be
dealt with exactly as a drunk driver.


And in our "leave 'em laughing" department:

What goes "Clip-clop clip-clop, bang-bang, clip-clop clip-clop,
bang-bang, clip-clop clip-clop, bang-bang, clip-clop clip-clop?


Wait for it...
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
Here it comes...
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
A drive-by shooting in Amish country.
(Or, as the tour drivers on the Island tell it, "on Mackinac Island")

--
Don Bruder - - New Email policy in effect as of Feb. 21, 2004.
Short form: I'm trashing EVERY E-mail that doesn't contain a password in the
subject unless it comes from a "whitelisted" (pre-approved by me) address.
See http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd/main/contact.html for full details.

wrote in message
...

I need plans for horse drawn vehicles.

If your local library has no suitable books, the
Smithsonian Instn. (Washiington DC) can probably help.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)

In article , wrote:


Based on 1970, I believe I paid around 40 cents a gallon. and the
minimum wage was around $3.00 an hour (rounded figure).

Garbage. The Federal minimum wage in 1970 was a dollar-sixty. It didn't go
over three dollars until 1980.

http://www.dol.gov/esa/minwage/chart.htm

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

Get a copy of my NEW AND IMPROVED TrollFilter for NewsProxy/Nfilter
by sending email to autoresponder at filterinfo-at-milmac-dot-com
You must use your REAL email address to get a response.

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
"Elmo" wrote in message


Where were you that minimum was that low? I started working a mere 4
years later (1967) in New York (State not city) and was paid $1.15 (which
was less than minimum by $0.10 because I was under 18).


Could have been $1.15, but I thought it was $1.37 based on a couple of fact
that I am sure of. That was in PA. I don't recall if is was the state or
Federal minimum.


Oh, the !.37 was a typo. I thought it was a misplaced mark of emphasis.

--
"The career politicians are keeping the elevator at the penthouse
floor and not sending it down for the rest of us." - Kinky Friedman

marad,

I agree with Mr. Hipson. Your pets are likely saddle ponies not draft
horses. Saddle horses are not bred or trained in this work. I suspect that
you lack much experience as a wagoneer and will lose interest as you look
into the expense involved in this project. If not you may wish to get some
mules. Why are horses terrified of bikes? Last time I was ahorse when bikes
came by I thought I was a dead man.

Dave M.

"David Martel" wrote in message
Last time I was ahorse when bikes came by I thought I was a dead man.


Must have been terrifying. Last time I was on a horse there were a lot of
people making noise, but the horse was not bothered at all. It just kept
going round and round.

wrote in message

I just want to "upgrade" and in the
process get some practical use out of my "fun". I know it takes time
to go anywhere, but we all need time to relax and ponder life. I have
the advantage of mostly all gravel back roads to drive to town too.
The asphalted road is a little shorter distance, but I'd prefer
staying out of heavy traffic.

I just want to build my own carriage, because I like to build things,
and the ones I have seen at sales are far too costly for my wallet. I
am not all that interested in "fancy", I more want something that is
practical and useful. I probably have darn near everything to build
it already. I got a whole shed full of lumber, lots of useful scrap
metal, several old hay wagons with tires, carpentry tools and a
welder.



I like your style, Mark - good luck with your project.

wrote in message
...
On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 22:37:36 GMT, "Colbyt"

snipped
You must know about horses, since you are right on the money as far as
Mark

Actually that is from childhood experiences. My grandfather farmed using
horses until about 1962. I used to tag along. I even got to ride "Nell" to
the barn most nights. )

Timely topic. There was an article in this morning's newspaper about
carriages and the "carriage association" relocating to the Ky Horse park.
They may have some information for you and here is a link to the article:

http://www.kentucky.com/mld/kentucky...l/12385753.htm

Have fun.


Colbyt

wrote:

PS, If gas prices keep rising, I might be a trendsetter

If gas prices keep rising you will be one of the few
that has transportation.

wrote in message
...
On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 05:11:59 -0400, Neon John wrote:

Horse drawn transportation is much more expensive than gasoline. Many
trees died to publish all the research on this topic the LAST time
gasoline got relatively expensive. Feeding and maintaining a work
horse is vastly different than the pleasure horse(s) you apparently
have now. I suggest doing some research before you go off making
plans.

You dont need a "work horse" to pull a small buggy or carraige. The
Amish use Standardbred horses almost exclusively, and they are the
same sizr as the average pleasure horse (like a Quarter horse). I
presrently drive a shetland pony on a small cart and he does fine,
excrpt I would not go no 10 miles with him, and being small, would not
drive him where there is traffic.

Mark
Mark,
Check out Rural Heritage has all kinds of draft info. As for wagons and
such We built a wagon on a Pioneer pony wagon frame last New Years weekend
and use it regularly with a team of Haflingers @ about 950 lbs each. We
drive to the closest local store just for fun every two or three weeks for
breakfast on Saturday mornings It is about 6 miles and takes about an hour
and a half. If this store had this store had more of the grocery, hardware
, feed we neede I wouldn,t heitate to drive the team there to do our
shopping.

Tim
Union SC

"Shiver" wrote in message

Here in Canada there is a guy in the Maritimes fighting a community
that doesn't want him coming into town on horseback and riding
the horse
(snip)
the local manager has pressed charges against the individual because
of the horse patties that get left behind.

What a weird community. Aren't there any gardeners in the town?

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote:
"Elmo" wrote in message

Where were you that minimum was that low? I started working a
mere 4
years later (1967) in New York (State not city) and was paid

.15 (which
was less than minimum by [quote:e3082d6ab9="Edwin
Pawlowski"]"Elmo" wrote in message

Where were you that minimum was that low? I started working a mere
4
years later (1967) in New York (State not city) and was paid $1.15
(which
was less than minimum by $0.10 because I was under 18).

Could have been $1.15, but I thought it was $1.37 based on a couple of
fact
that I am sure of. That was in PA. I don’t recall if is was the state
or
Federal minimum.[/quote:e3082d6ab9]
.10 because I was under 18).

Could have been
.15, but I thought it was
.37 based on a couple of
fact
that I am sure of. That was in PA. I don’t recall if is was the
state or
Federal minimum.

The thing is it is quite a while ago and I for one haven’t a clue as
to the cost of fuel was when I was paid about au $11.00 in 1959. But
the Fuel Companies would know! Wouldn’t they be trumpeting it from the
rooftops if the cost of fuel was substantially less today?
The other factor is that petroleum has a finite source - doesn’t this
mean that cost will increase exponentially the further we get into
this Century?
Isn’t it logical that we should be using smaller H.P. vehicles with
more efficient engines? Perhaps a greater fee on registration as the
H.P. is increased?

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In article 1_657910_00d1c754d772bc4b8fb021c349a5adee@autofor umz.com,
Taurus26 wrote:

Could have been $1.15, but I thought it was $1.37 based on a couple of
fact that I am sure of. That was in PA. I don’t recall if is was the
state or Federal minimum.

Near as I can find, the history of min wage and months it kicked in.

Month / Year Minimum Hourly Wage
October 1938 $0.25
October 1939 $0.30
October 1945 $0.40
January 1950 $0.75
March 1956 $1.00
September 1961 $1.15
September 1963 $1.25
February 1967 $1.40
February 1968 $1.60
May 1974 $2.00
January 1975 $2.10
January 1976 $2.30
January 1978 $2.65
January 1979 $2.90
January 1980 $3.10
January 1981 $3.35
April 1990 $3.80
April 1991 $4.25
October 1996 $4.75
September 1997 $5.15

YK

Taurus26 wrote
The other factor is that petroleum has a finite source - doesn’t this
mean that cost will increase exponentially the further we get into
this Century?

No doubt it will rise, but it's unlikely to be exponential. To say it
will rise exponentially would be to say that an equation:

price = (A * time)^ B

where A and B are constants.
would correctly describe the price. Thats not likely.

The price of petrolium will rise until it equals some different (and
renewable) energy source and will then stabilize and perhaps drop some
as the cost of providing the other energy source is reduced through
improved technology. Does that mean that most automobiles in the world
will be obsolete and replaced in 15 years? Sure, but history shows
that happens anyway.

"Taurus26" wrote in message

The thing is it is quite a while ago and I for one haven’t a clue as
to the cost of fuel was when I was paid about au $11.00 in 1959. But
the Fuel Companies would know! Wouldn’t they be trumpeting it from the
rooftops if the cost of fuel was substantially less today?

Tough point to get across. People just remember that it is higher today
than last week. I'm not sure big oil would be seen in a favorable light in
any case.

The other factor is that petroleum has a finite source - doesn’t this
mean that cost will increase exponentially the further we get into
this Century?

The oil is free. The cost of getting is is what fluctuates and increases as
the "easy' well are dried up and we have to find new, harder to reach,
sources. Supply and demand also are big factors. I'm sure the cost will
increase considerably down the road though.


Isn’t it logical that we should be using smaller H.P. vehicles with
more efficient engines? Perhaps a greater fee on registration as the
H.P. is increased?

Makes sense. There is a "gas guzzler" tax in place, but that is usually for
expensive luxury cars, not the every day working man's car. If the cost of a
$75,000 Jaguar increases by $1200, it is not a big deal to the person that
can easily afford that kind of car. It probably should be tightened up so
the big pickups and SUVs are hit with it.
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/info.shtml
Trucks are exempt right now. I can see that for the tradesman that really
needs a truck to haul his material, but for hte mom taking junior to
kindergarten in a Navigator, different scenario.

More research should be done on other fuels, hybrids, solar power etc.

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

"Taurus26" wrote in message

The thing is it is quite a while ago and I for one haven’t a clue as
to the cost of fuel was when I was paid about au $11.00 in 1959. But
the Fuel Companies would know! Wouldn’t they be trumpeting it from the
rooftops if the cost of fuel was substantially less today?

Tough point to get across. People just remember that it is higher today
than last week. I'm not sure big oil would be seen in a favorable light in
any case.

That plus it doesn't matter...in actuality it isn't "big oil" setting
the price as much as it is speculation-driven markets that are the
factor. Of course, the conditions to support such market forces are
those of increasing worldwide demand in conjunction w/ inflexible
production increases (especially in the US both in production and
refining) and fears of instability in many of the major production areas
of the world.

The other factor is that petroleum has a finite source - doesn’t this
mean that cost will increase exponentially the further we get into
this Century?

The oil is free. The cost of getting is is what fluctuates and increases as
the "easy' well are dried up and we have to find new, harder to reach,
sources. Supply and demand also are big factors. I'm sure the cost will
increase considerably down the road though.

To a small extent of the total the cost of exploration and production
are increasing yes. As noted, most of the driving forces for recent
price increases are on the demand side coupled w/ the world situation.
In actuality, I expect a significant reduction after a few years or so
as production is finally ramped up as I expect the constricting
regulations to be finally relaxed.

Isn’t it logical that we should be using smaller H.P. vehicles with
more efficient engines? Perhaps a greater fee on registration as the
H.P. is increased?

Makes sense. There is a "gas guzzler" tax in place, but that is usually for
expensive luxury cars, not the every day working man's car. If the cost of a
$75,000 Jaguar increases by $1200, it is not a big deal to the person that
can easily afford that kind of car. It probably should be tightened up so
the big pickups and SUVs are hit with it.
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/info.shtml
Trucks are exempt right now. I can see that for the tradesman that really
needs a truck to haul his material, but for hte mom taking junior to
kindergarten in a Navigator, different scenario.

Well, it's been shown to be more economically advantageous to let market
forces be the driving factor for the most part. It will be very
interesting to observe the effect of an artificial cap on retail
gasoline prices in HI--I'm expecting they will soon be finding that
they're going to be waiting in line and rationing as a result, a la the
'70s.

When Mom gets tired of spending the $$ for the vehicle she's currently
driving she'll either quite driving so much or get a different vehicle,
or both. Government won't need to do anything except stay out of the
way. The problem is that regulation and activists have prevented
enhanced production on both the exploration and the refining side for so
long that it there hasn't been any increase in total refining capacity
in nearly 30 years (that's generalization, I'd have to go look up actual
data, but it's valid generalization).

More research should be done on other fuels, hybrids, solar power etc.

As if there isn't? When it becomes economically competitive other forms
will come into play. Increasing use of biofuels will ease a small
fraction in the short term...

The other factor is that petroleum has a finite source - doesn’t this
mean that cost will increase exponentially the further we get into
this Century?


False premise. We know how to synthesize petroleum, out of
municipal waste streams, with a positive energy budget.
(IOW, you get more energy out in the form of oil than it takes
to convert the mulicipal waste).

"Duane Bozarth" wrote in message

Well, it's been shown to be more economically advantageous to let market
forces be the driving factor for the most part.

Normally, I'd agree 100%, but the auto industry needs a little nudge once in
a while. Or the consumer needs more education. You don't what your great
grandson to run out of oil just because my grandson drives a
SuperNavigator8AllTrack with the high performance package. Frankly, I like
a car with lots of goodies and power everything, but it does not have to be
huge to have those features.



When Mom gets tired of spending the $$ for the vehicle she's currently
driving she'll either quite driving so much or get a different vehicle,
or both. Government won't need to do anything except stay out of the
way.

So far we have not seen the exodus like in the 70's when the Pinto was
bringing a premium price. Maybe $3.00 is n ot high enough for people to
make a switch.


The problem is that regulation and activists have prevented
enhanced production on both the exploration and the refining side for so
long that it there hasn't been any increase in total refining capacity
in nearly 30 years (that's generalization, I'd have to go look up actual
data, but it's valid generalization).

No only that, they stand in the way of wind farms that can save energy.



More research should be done on other fuels, hybrids, solar power etc.

As if there isn't? When it becomes economically competitive other forms
will come into play. Increasing use of biofuels will ease a small
fraction in the short term...

Research proves it can be done, but more is needed to get manufacturing and
installation costs in line. With a bigger push and demands from consumers,
it may happen. So far, the public still stays away from solar not only
because of initial cost, but because they just don't know enough about it.
Home construction has improved in the past 30 years, but we have the
technology to cut energy cost in half, but people are either not aware or
are afraid to do something different. Education of the public and builders
is important but lagging. I see this every day with some of our customers.
www.polysteel.com www.integraspec.com Right now, about 4.5% of the
houses are built this way, but it can easily be more and energy efficient.

I include myself in some of this. My next car will probably get better
mileage, but I'm still leery of getting a hybrid and the potential of
expensive battery cost down the road 5 or 8 years.
Ed