In article ,
Andrew wrote:
On 17/04/2021 16:08, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

and with the internet work doesn't need to be further away than a laptop



real work doesn't involve the internet.

That entirely depends on what work is involved.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

On 17/04/2021 19:13, charles wrote:
In article ,
Andrew wrote:
On 17/04/2021 16:08, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

and with the internet work doesn't need to be further away than a laptop



real work doesn't involve the internet.

That entirely depends on what work is involved.

What a **** he is to be sure. My real work involved almost nothing BUT
the internet


--
I would rather have questions that cannot be answered...
....than to have answers that cannot be questioned

Richard Feynman

On 17/04/2021 19:23, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 17/04/2021 19:13, charles wrote:
In article ,
Â*Â*Â* Andrew wrote:
On 17/04/2021 16:08, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

and with the internet work doesn't need to be further away than a
laptop



real work doesn't involve the internet.

That entirely depends on what work is involved.

What a **** he is to be sure. My real work involved almost nothing BUT
the internet



Nope. We had an entire effective electronics and IT business before
the internet was invented. Dream on.

On 17/04/2021 14:56, tim... wrote:

Starting with the rental market, where having to post process the
monthly bill back to the 20 people who rented this car this month is
going to add on a considerable admin fee from the rental company for
each hire.

There are plans going forward to make everything rental.

e.g.

Windows, you rent the OS and services.

Electric Microscooters, the only legal ones to ride on streets will be
rental.

--
Adrian C

On 17/04/2021 05:42, jon wrote:
On Fri, 16 Apr 2021 15:58:46 +0100, Broadback wrote:

Lots of post on them but what do they cost
At the moment various prices, depends on what you want, what it does,
who you want to impress, will it be cost effective.

A "sports" luxury car costs an excessive amount, a small family
hatchback costs more than the equivalent petrol version.

They will have depreciation given the spending of battery life, but
maybe lower servicing costs as mechanically they have less bits to maintain.

Also some of the computer technology is complex and some not really
serviceable by third parties, so a really used car may need to be
recycled when it breaks.

Ultimately, personal ownership will fall. "Your new car" will actually
be gained under a rental agreement, servicing and support included.


How is the government going to recover all the fuel tax, when the the
majority of vehicles are electric.


I don't feel right about Tesla handing out free supercharging to
customers. They should pay tax-in-kind on providing that benefit. In the
same vein that companies that supply free car parking (supermarkets),
and them that do free delivery (amazon) should also be taxed on the
service. Nothing is free.

It's time that the electorate had open access to discuss and amend
taxation, and transparency on rules and dodgy provided loopholes. Ever
seen Tolley's tax guide?

More people are going to live longer because of lower pollution and
other environmental effects, so it is likely they can continue to work
until the age of 75, pay more income tax and not claim all the state
pension they contributed for.

Then ...

We will eventually have tax/insurance per journey, our personal usage
tracked like it is with public transport. Private ownership and
servicing of vehicles will decline - a rental subscription model is
coming to allow access to the model of self driving car you've signed up
for.

If you want to enjoy your own driving skills, you'll have to do it on a
private track.... or do it in VR.

--
Adrian C

"tim..." wrote in message
...


"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 17/04/2021 13:31, Steve Walker wrote:
I have the "choice" of car (20 minutes each way) or train/bus (1-1/2 to
2 hours each way ... allowing for them not connected to the times I need
to arrive and leave, connections between them, etc.) Not using the car
would simply mean having little time to get anything done in the
evening, to spend with my family or to go out. Life would just turn into
a constant round of getting up, going to work, coming home, cooking and
cleaning, going to bed ready to get up early the next morning. That's no
life.

Before cars, people simply lived on bus or train routes.

before cars

people lived within walking distance of work

Plenty didnt.

Steve Walker wrote:
On 17/04/2021 10:28, Robin wrote:
On 17/04/2021 10:06, nightjar wrote:
On 17/04/2021 08:01, Tim+ wrote:
Chris Hogg wrote:
On Sat, 17 Apr 2021 04:42:47 -0000 (UTC), jon wrote:

On Fri, 16 Apr 2021 15:58:46 +0100, Broadback wrote:

Lots of post on them but what do they cost

How is the government going to recover all the fuel tax, when the the
majority of vehicles are electric.

Tax electricity instead.


Unlikely.Â* Too many people bordering on fuel poverty as it is at the
moment
and no way of differentiating consumption.Â* More likely an NZ style
mileage
tax.

I would be surprised if electric vehicles do not have an inbuilt
ability to detect when they are on charge and what rate they are
charging at. If so, the means to measure their electricity use is
already there and just needs to be output.


But involves a challenging job of data and then tax collection; and
loses the chance to incentivise reduced and off-peak travel by car.

Plus nerdy issues - eg if you take your EV to Italy, and France and
Italy (or the EU as a whole) have similar taxes.

I hope that they go for a straight electricity used tax

See my comments on energy poverty.

or a straight
mileage tax.

The only sensible plan in my opinion.

Tim


--
Please don't feed the trolls

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 17/04/2021 10:49, Andy Bennet wrote:
On 17/04/2021 05:42, jon wrote:
On Fri, 16 Apr 2021 15:58:46 +0100, Broadback wrote:

Lots of post on them but what do they cost

How is the government going to recover all the fuel tax, when the the
majority of vehicles are electric.


Tyre tax.

A new tyre duty based on average milege obtainable with reasonable use
of each tyre.

Creative!

Yup, that would work...



In what way is this better than a simple mileage tax? A tyre tax would see
a lot of cars running around on bald tyres or remoulds.

Daft idea.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

nightjar wrote:
On 17/04/2021 10:28, Robin wrote:
On 17/04/2021 10:06, nightjar wrote:
On 17/04/2021 08:01, Tim+ wrote:
Chris Hogg wrote:
On Sat, 17 Apr 2021 04:42:47 -0000 (UTC), jon wrote:

On Fri, 16 Apr 2021 15:58:46 +0100, Broadback wrote:

Lots of post on them but what do they cost

How is the government going to recover all the fuel tax, when the the
majority of vehicles are electric.

Tax electricity instead.


Unlikely.Â* Too many people bordering on fuel poverty as it is at the
moment
and no way of differentiating consumption.Â* More likely an NZ style
mileage
tax.

I would be surprised if electric vehicles do not have an inbuilt
ability to detect when they are on charge and what rate they are
charging at. If so, the means to measure their electricity use is
already there and just needs to be output.


But involves a challenging job of data and then tax collection;

Not really. It would effectively be a specialised smart meter, fitted to
the car. Payment could be through your electricity bill.

So youd need international agreement of the type of meter or meters just
fitted to UK vehicles?

Its a daft idea when taxing by mileage is simple to apply and needs no new
technology.


Tim


--
Please don't feed the trolls

"Andrew" wrote in message
...
On 17/04/2021 16:08, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

and with the internet work doesn't need to be further away than a laptop



real work doesn't involve the internet.

Bull****.

In article ,
Rod Speed wrote:


"tim..." wrote in message
...


"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 17/04/2021 13:31, Steve Walker wrote:
I have the "choice" of car (20 minutes each way) or train/bus (1-1/2
to 2 hours each way ... allowing for them not connected to the times
I need to arrive and leave, connections between them, etc.) Not
using the car would simply mean having little time to get anything
done in the evening, to spend with my family or to go out. Life
would just turn into a constant round of getting up, going to work,
coming home, cooking and cleaning, going to bed ready to get up
early the next morning. That's no life.

Before cars, people simply lived on bus or train routes.

before cars

people lived within walking distance of work

Plenty didn‘t.

in the 1930s, a friend of my father used to fly himself from the Island of
Islay to Manchester since he had businesses in both places.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

"Andrew" wrote in message
...
On 17/04/2021 19:23, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 17/04/2021 19:13, charles wrote:
In article ,
Andrew wrote:
On 17/04/2021 16:08, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

and with the internet work doesn't need to be further away than a
laptop



real work doesn't involve the internet.

That entirely depends on what work is involved.

What a **** he is to be sure. My real work involved almost nothing BUT
the internet



Nope. We had an entire effective electronics and IT business before
the internet was invented. Dream on.

Irrelevant to how much real work does involve the internet today.

"Adrian Caspersz" wrote in message
...
On 17/04/2021 14:56, tim... wrote:

Starting with the rental market, where having to post process the monthly
bill back to the 20 people who rented this car this month is going to add
on a considerable admin fee from the rental company for each hire.

There are plans going forward to make everything rental.

Bull****.

e.g.

Windows, you rent the OS and services.

Thats nothing like everything.

Electric Microscooters, the only legal ones to ride on streets will be
rental.

Bull****.

"tim..." wrote in message
...


"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 17/04/2021 11:45, Robin wrote:
On 17/04/2021 10:49, Andy Bennet wrote:
On 17/04/2021 05:42, jon wrote:
On Fri, 16 Apr 2021 15:58:46 +0100, Broadback wrote:

Lots of post on them but what do they cost

How is the government going to recover all the fuel tax, when the the
majority of vehicles are electric.


Tyre tax.

A new tyre duty based on average milege obtainable with reasonable use
of each tyre.

What could possibly go wrong when you replace a pay-as-you-go tax most
people don't notice with a lumpy tax that'd probably increase the price
of tyres by around a factor 4*? Start with:

maximum hiss

theft of wheels rockets (gor bless them cordless angle grinders)

smuggling (of dangerous tyres too)

Ministers get blame when cars with bald tyes skid and kill kiddies



*back of envelope assuming new cars account for half new tyres in UK

They will stick GPS in every car and couple it up to a credit card in
order for the ****ing thing to respond to the go pedal


I know you posted that as a laugh

but personally I think the credit card in the slot is a much better way of
paying per mile than simply transparently billing the keeper's bank
account.

There are lots of scenarios where payment for use of a vehicle, other than
by the keeper, is required.

Starting with the rental market, where having to post process the monthly
bill back to the 20 people who rented this car this month is going to add
on a considerable admin fee from the rental company for each hire.

Makes more sense to give up on charging by distance travelled.

On 17/04/2021 16:43, nightjar wrote:
On 17/04/2021 10:28, Robin wrote:
On 17/04/2021 10:06, nightjar wrote:
On 17/04/2021 08:01, Tim+ wrote:
Chris Hogg wrote:
On Sat, 17 Apr 2021 04:42:47 -0000 (UTC), jon wrote:

On Fri, 16 Apr 2021 15:58:46 +0100, Broadback wrote:

Lots of post on them but what do they cost

How is the government going to recover all the fuel tax, when the the
majority of vehicles are electric.

Tax electricity instead.


Unlikely.Â* Too many people bordering on fuel poverty as it is at the
moment
and no way of differentiating consumption.Â* More likely an NZ style
mileage
tax.

I would be surprised if electric vehicles do not have an inbuilt
ability to detect when they are on charge and what rate they are
charging at. If so, the means to measure their electricity use is
already there and just needs to be output.


But involves a challenging job of data and then tax collection;

Not really. It would effectively be a specialised smart meter, fitted to
the car. Payment could be through your electricity bill.

and loses the chance to incentivise reduced and off-peak travel by car.

Assuming that would even be needed. Congestion charges are already an
established way to deal with traffic congestion, while the whole point
of getting people to move to electric cars is the claimed reduction in
pollution.

Plus nerdy issues - eg if you take your EV to Italy, and France and
Italy (or the EU as a whole) have similar taxes.

That could be overcome by allowing the in-car meter to recognise when it
is being charged from a public charging point. That would allow the tax
to be collected at point of sale, with the meter not registering that
electricity charge as taxable. Anybody travelling abroad is likely to be
using public charging points, unless they have a second home. In that
case, a way of detecting which home the vehicle was at would allow the
right electricity bill to be charged.

Given a possible loss of £28bn a year revenue, HMRC will come up with a
way to overcome any obstacles you can think of.


Your faith in HMRC* is touching. Somewhat bemusing given the track
record on e.g. missing trader fraud, personal service companies and
disguised remuneration schemes. Still, touching nonetheless. And a
firm hand at the tiller and clear order "full steam ahead" these days
may well receive the response "Yes, Chancellor, all the obstacles can be
overcome." sotto voce "If you don't mind a re-run of the community
charge."


*tax policy has been the responsibility of HM Treasury since 2005. So
in principle it falls to them to come up with options to fill the gap
left by fuel duties. That said, when things go wrong it's never, ever
the Treasury's fault.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On Sun, 18 Apr 2021 07:18:47 +1000, %%, better known as cantankerous
trolling senile geezer Rodent Speed, wrote:

FLUSH the trolling senile asshole's latest troll**** unread

--
addressing nym-shifting senile Rodent:
"You on the other hand are a heavyweight bull****ter who demonstrates
his particular prowess at it every day."
MID:

On Sun, 18 Apr 2021 07:17:05 +1000, %%, better known as cantankerous
trolling senile geezer Rodent Speed, wrote:


Bull****.

That one word would make the perfect nym for you, senile bull**** artist!

--
addressing nym-shifting senile Rodent:
"You on the other hand are a heavyweight bull****ter who demonstrates
his particular prowess at it every day."
MID:

"Rod Speed is an entirely modern phenomenon. Essentially, Rod Speed
is an insecure and worthless individual who has discovered he can
enhance his own self-esteem in his own eyes by playing "the big, hard
man" on the InterNet."

https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/r...d-faq.2973853/

--
Richard addressing senile Rodent Speed:
"**** you're thick/pathetic excuse for a troll."
MID:

On Sun, 18 Apr 2021 07:20:20 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH the trolling senile asshole's latest troll**** unread

--
Norman Wells addressing trolling senile Rodent:
"Ah, the voice of scum speaks."
MID:

On Sun, 18 Apr 2021 07:28:25 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH yet more of the trolling senile pest's latest troll**** unread

--
Sqwertz to Rodent Speed:
"This is just a hunch, but I'm betting you're kinda an argumentative
asshole.
MID:

Adrian Caspersz wrote
jon wrote
Broadback wrote

Lots of post on them but what do they cost

At the moment various prices, depends on what you want, what it does, who
you want to impress, will it be cost effective.

A "sports" luxury car costs an excessive amount, a small family hatchback
costs more than the equivalent petrol version.

They will have depreciation given the spending of battery life, but maybe
lower servicing costs as mechanically they have less bits to maintain.

Dont buy that given that most dont spend much on servicing with an ICE.

Also some of the computer technology is complex and some not really
serviceable by third parties,

Dont buy that either.

so a really used car may need to be recycled when it breaks.

Or that either.

Ultimately, personal ownership will fall. "Your new car" will actually be
gained under a rental agreement, servicing and support included.

Dont buy that either.

How is the government going to recover all the fuel tax, when the the
majority of vehicles are electric.

I don't feel right about Tesla handing out free supercharging to
customers. They should pay tax-in-kind on providing that benefit. In the
same vein that companies that supply free car parking (supermarkets), and
them that do free delivery (amazon) should also be taxed on the service.
Nothing is free.

The air we breath is still free.

It's time that the electorate had open access to discuss and amend
taxation, and transparency on rules and dodgy provided loopholes.

Not going to happen, it just isnt viable.

Ever seen Tolley's tax guide?

More people are going to live longer because of lower pollution and other
environmental effects,

Thats very arguable indeed.

so it is likely they can continue to work until the age of 75, pay more
income tax and not claim all the state pension they contributed for.

Then ...

We will eventually have tax/insurance per journey, our personal usage
tracked like it is with public transport.

Pointless, too much paperwork involved.

Same with taxing those who walk their dog more than
those who dont have any dog and dont bother to exercise.

Private ownership and servicing of vehicles will decline

Bull****.

- a rental subscription model is coming to allow access to the model of
self driving car you've signed up for.

Some will go that route, but most wont. Some
already use taxis and ubers etc but most wont.

If you want to enjoy your own driving skills, you'll have to do it on a
private track.... or do it in VR.

Bull****. We dont even do that with aircraft or boats.

"Tim+" wrote in message
...
Steve Walker wrote:
On 17/04/2021 10:28, Robin wrote:
On 17/04/2021 10:06, nightjar wrote:
On 17/04/2021 08:01, Tim+ wrote:
Chris Hogg wrote:
On Sat, 17 Apr 2021 04:42:47 -0000 (UTC), jon wrote:

On Fri, 16 Apr 2021 15:58:46 +0100, Broadback wrote:

Lots of post on them but what do they cost

How is the government going to recover all the fuel tax, when the
the
majority of vehicles are electric.

Tax electricity instead.


Unlikely. Too many people bordering on fuel poverty as it is at the
moment
and no way of differentiating consumption. More likely an NZ style
mileage
tax.

I would be surprised if electric vehicles do not have an inbuilt
ability to detect when they are on charge and what rate they are
charging at. If so, the means to measure their electricity use is
already there and just needs to be output.


But involves a challenging job of data and then tax collection; and
loses the chance to incentivise reduced and off-peak travel by car.

Plus nerdy issues - eg if you take your EV to Italy, and France and
Italy (or the EU as a whole) have similar taxes.

I hope that they go for a straight electricity used tax

See my comments on energy poverty.

or a straight mileage tax.

The only sensible plan in my opinion.

Makes a lot more sense to not tax on distance travelled.

On Sun, 18 Apr 2021 08:09:50 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:


Makes a lot more sense to not tax on distance travelled.

Not as much sense as euthanizing a useless senile troll swine like you!

--
Website (from 2007) dedicated to the 86-year-old trolling senile
cretin from Oz:
https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/r...d-faq.2973853/

On Sun, 18 Apr 2021 08:07:53 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH the trolling senile pest's latest troll**** unread

--
JimK addressing senile Rodent Speed:
"I really feel the quality of your trolling has dropped in the last few
months..."
MID:

"charles" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Rod Speed wrote:


"tim..." wrote in message
...


"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 17/04/2021 13:31, Steve Walker wrote:
I have the "choice" of car (20 minutes each way) or train/bus (1-1/2
to 2 hours each way ... allowing for them not connected to the times
I need to arrive and leave, connections between them, etc.) Not
using the car would simply mean having little time to get anything
done in the evening, to spend with my family or to go out. Life
would just turn into a constant round of getting up, going to work,
coming home, cooking and cleaning, going to bed ready to get up
early the next morning. That's no life.

Before cars, people simply lived on bus or train routes.

before cars

people lived within walking distance of work

Plenty didn't.

in the 1930s, a friend of my father used to fly himself from the Island of
Islay to Manchester since he had businesses in both places.

Yeah, we actually bought the plane of one of those in the very early 70s.
https://www.goodall.com.au/australia...-24/img30.jpeg

"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...


"charles" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Rod Speed wrote:


"tim..." wrote in message
...


"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 17/04/2021 13:31, Steve Walker wrote:
I have the "choice" of car (20 minutes each way) or train/bus (1-1/2
to 2 hours each way ... allowing for them not connected to the times
I need to arrive and leave, connections between them, etc.) Not
using the car would simply mean having little time to get anything
done in the evening, to spend with my family or to go out. Life
would just turn into a constant round of getting up, going to work,
coming home, cooking and cleaning, going to bed ready to get up
early the next morning. That's no life.

Before cars, people simply lived on bus or train routes.

before cars

people lived within walking distance of work

Plenty didn't.

in the 1930s, a friend of my father used to fly himself from the Island
of
Islay to Manchester since he had businesses in both places.

Yeah, we actually bought the plane of one of those in the very early 70s.
https://www.goodall.com.au/australia...-24/img30.jpeg

https://www.goodall.com.au/australia...-24/img34.jpeg

On Sun, 18 Apr 2021 08:26:26 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH the trolling senile asshole's latest troll**** unread

--
"Who or What is Rod Speed?

Rod Speed is an entirely modern phenomenon. Essentially, Rod Speed
is an insecure and worthless individual who has discovered he can
enhance his own self-esteem in his own eyes by playing "the big, hard
man" on the InterNet."
https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/r...d-faq.2973853/

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 17/04/2021 14:56, tim... wrote:


"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 17/04/2021 11:45, Robin wrote:
On 17/04/2021 10:49, Andy Bennet wrote:
On 17/04/2021 05:42, jon wrote:
On Fri, 16 Apr 2021 15:58:46 +0100, Broadback wrote:

Lots of post on them but what do they cost

How is the government going to recover all the fuel tax, when the the
majority of vehicles are electric.


Tyre tax.

A new tyre duty based on average milege obtainable with reasonable use
of each tyre.

What could possibly go wrong when you replace a pay-as-you-go tax most
people don't notice with a lumpy tax that'd probably increase the price
of tyres by around a factor 4*? Start with:

maximum hiss

theft of wheels rockets (gor bless them cordless angle grinders)

smuggling (of dangerous tyres too)

Ministers get blame when cars with bald tyes skid and kill kiddies



*back of envelope assuming new cars account for half new tyres in UK

They will stick GPS in every car and couple it up to a credit card in
order for the ****ing thing to respond to the go pedal


I know you posted that as a laugh

not entirely.


but personally I think the credit card in the slot is a much better way
of paying per mile than simply transparently billing the keeper's bank
account.

There are lots of scenarios where payment for use of a vehicle, other
than by the keeper, is required.

Starting with the rental market, where having to post process the monthly
bill back to the 20 people who rented this car this month is going to add
on a considerable admin fee from the rental company for each hire.


I think it will come down to that. then the internet crashes and everyone
is ****ed

The plans for retrospective billing back to keeper, predated the possibility
that cars would be always connected

They worked on the basis of the sealed-units storing the data and uploading
it whenever they managed to contact a suitable base station, with a
pseudo-penalty "system" to catch people who managed to drive around without
ever uploading that data.

"Steve Walker" wrote in message
...
On 17/04/2021 14:47, tim... wrote:


"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 17/04/2021 13:31, Steve Walker wrote:
I have the "choice" of car (20 minutes each way) or train/bus (1-1/2 to
2 hours each way ... allowing for them not connected to the times I
need to arrive and leave, connections between them, etc.) Not using the
car would simply mean having little time to get anything done in the
evening, to spend with my family or to go out. Life would just turn
into a constant round of getting up, going to work, coming home,
cooking and cleaning, going to bed ready to get up early the next
morning. That's no life.

Before cars, people simply lived on bus or train routes.

before cars

people lived within walking distance of work

Yes and lived **** lives because they could not get decently paid jobs or
spent many hours of the day travelling back and forth.

How is an engineering design company, needing qualified and experienced
engineers and designers, to work if it can only recruit people that can
walk to the office?

by locating themselves in town centres (when PT is a viable alternative to
walking)

not in out of the way trading estates, where driving is your only viable
option

On 17/04/2021 21:58, Tim+ wrote:
nightjar wrote:
On 17/04/2021 10:28, Robin wrote:
On 17/04/2021 10:06, nightjar wrote:
On 17/04/2021 08:01, Tim+ wrote:
Chris Hogg wrote:
On Sat, 17 Apr 2021 04:42:47 -0000 (UTC), jon wrote:

On Fri, 16 Apr 2021 15:58:46 +0100, Broadback wrote:

Lots of post on them but what do they cost

How is the government going to recover all the fuel tax, when the the
majority of vehicles are electric.

Tax electricity instead.


Unlikely.Â* Too many people bordering on fuel poverty as it is at the
moment
and no way of differentiating consumption.Â* More likely an NZ style
mileage
tax.

I would be surprised if electric vehicles do not have an inbuilt
ability to detect when they are on charge and what rate they are
charging at. If so, the means to measure their electricity use is
already there and just needs to be output.


But involves a challenging job of data and then tax collection;

Not really. It would effectively be a specialised smart meter, fitted to
the car. Payment could be through your electricity bill.

So youd need international agreement of the type of meter or meters just
fitted to UK vehicles?

As I also pointed out, if the tax were collected at the point of sale
when using public charging points, the meter would only be there to
measure the amount of charge taken at home.

Its a daft idea when taxing by mileage is simple to apply

Really? How is it payment going to be collected? How are you going to
know the mileages unless you accurately track every vehicle in the
country? If you do that, how will that be achieved without people
raising privacy concerns?

and needs no new
technology.

Neither does sticking a smart meter in every electric car. However, both
would need a lot more existing technology to be installed.

--
Colin Bignell

On 17/04/2021 22:18, %% wrote:


"Andrew" wrote in message
...
On 17/04/2021 19:23, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 17/04/2021 19:13, charles wrote:
In article ,
Â*Â*Â* Andrew wrote:
On 17/04/2021 16:08, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

and with the internet work doesn't need to be further away than a
laptop



real work doesn't involve the internet.

That entirely depends on what work is involved.

What a **** he is to be sure. My real work involved almost nothing
BUT the internet



Nope. We had an entire effective electronics and IT business before
the internet was invented. Dream on.

Irrelevant to how much real work does involve the internet today.

Involving the internet is not the same as "nothing BUT the
internet" as turnip claims. The former could still function without
the internet, as it must have done before the internet.

On 17/04/2021 22:17, %% wrote:


"Andrew" wrote in message
...
On 17/04/2021 16:08, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

and with the internet work doesn't need to be further away than a laptop



real work doesn't involve the internet.

Bull****.

That's what passes for 'work' on the internet.

On 17/04/2021 22:50, Robin wrote:


*tax policy has been the responsibility of HM Treasury since 2005.Â* So
in principle it falls to them to come up with options to fill the gap
left by fuel duties.Â* That said, when things go wrong it's never, ever
the Treasury's fault.


There is always that static, immoveable source of lots of juicy revenue,
Britain's stupidly overpriced houses.

nightjar wrote:
On 17/04/2021 21:58, Tim+ wrote:
nightjar wrote:
On 17/04/2021 10:28, Robin wrote:
On 17/04/2021 10:06, nightjar wrote:
On 17/04/2021 08:01, Tim+ wrote:
Chris Hogg wrote:
On Sat, 17 Apr 2021 04:42:47 -0000 (UTC), jon wrote:

On Fri, 16 Apr 2021 15:58:46 +0100, Broadback wrote:

Lots of post on them but what do they cost

How is the government going to recover all the fuel tax, when the the
majority of vehicles are electric.

Tax electricity instead.


Unlikely.Â* Too many people bordering on fuel poverty as it is at the
moment
and no way of differentiating consumption.Â* More likely an NZ style
mileage
tax.

I would be surprised if electric vehicles do not have an inbuilt
ability to detect when they are on charge and what rate they are
charging at. If so, the means to measure their electricity use is
already there and just needs to be output.


But involves a challenging job of data and then tax collection;

Not really. It would effectively be a specialised smart meter, fitted to
the car. Payment could be through your electricity bill.

So youd need international agreement of the type of meter or meters just
fitted to UK vehicles?

As I also pointed out, if the tax were collected at the point of sale
when using public charging points, the meter would only be there to
measure the amount of charge taken at home.

Its a daft idea when taxing by mileage is simple to apply

Really? How is it payment going to be collected? How are you going to
know the mileages unless you accurately track every vehicle in the
country? If you do that, how will that be achieved without people
raising privacy concerns?

In NZ we simply paid a mileage surcharge at the end of our hire period.
This wasnt a hire company charge but a government tax.

I dont think continuous monitoring or metering is needed as long as a
tamper-proof mileage logging system is used.

I dont think it would be that hard to institute a similar system here.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

On 18/04/2021 13:44, Tim+ wrote:
nightjar wrote:
On 17/04/2021 21:58, Tim+ wrote:
nightjar wrote:
On 17/04/2021 10:28, Robin wrote:
On 17/04/2021 10:06, nightjar wrote:
On 17/04/2021 08:01, Tim+ wrote:
Chris Hogg wrote:
On Sat, 17 Apr 2021 04:42:47 -0000 (UTC), jon wrote:

On Fri, 16 Apr 2021 15:58:46 +0100, Broadback wrote:

Lots of post on them but what do they cost

How is the government going to recover all the fuel tax, when the the
majority of vehicles are electric.

Tax electricity instead.


Unlikely.Â* Too many people bordering on fuel poverty as it is at the
moment
and no way of differentiating consumption.Â* More likely an NZ style
mileage
tax.

I would be surprised if electric vehicles do not have an inbuilt
ability to detect when they are on charge and what rate they are
charging at. If so, the means to measure their electricity use is
already there and just needs to be output.


But involves a challenging job of data and then tax collection;

Not really. It would effectively be a specialised smart meter, fitted to
the car. Payment could be through your electricity bill.

So youd need international agreement of the type of meter or meters just
fitted to UK vehicles?

As I also pointed out, if the tax were collected at the point of sale
when using public charging points, the meter would only be there to
measure the amount of charge taken at home.

Its a daft idea when taxing by mileage is simple to apply

Really? How is it payment going to be collected? How are you going to
know the mileages unless you accurately track every vehicle in the
country? If you do that, how will that be achieved without people
raising privacy concerns?

In NZ we simply paid a mileage surcharge at the end of our hire period.
This wasnt a hire company charge but a government tax.

I dont think continuous monitoring or metering is needed as long as a
tamper-proof mileage logging system is used.

You still have the problems of reading it and charging for the use.

I dont think it would be that hard to institute a similar system here.

Which would amount to fitting a different type of smart meter to the car
- one that reads mileage instead of electricity use.


--
Colin Bignell

"Andrew" wrote in message
...
On 17/04/2021 22:18, %% wrote:


"Andrew" wrote in message
...
On 17/04/2021 19:23, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 17/04/2021 19:13, charles wrote:
In article ,
Andrew wrote:
On 17/04/2021 16:08, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

and with the internet work doesn't need to be further away than a
laptop



real work doesn't involve the internet.

That entirely depends on what work is involved.

What a **** he is to be sure. My real work involved almost nothing BUT
the internet



Nope. We had an entire effective electronics and IT business before
the internet was invented. Dream on.

Irrelevant to how much real work does involve the internet today.

Involving the internet is not the same as "nothing BUT the
internet" as turnip claims.

He is talking about setting up the internet in various places.

The former could still function without the internet, as it must have done
before the internet.

Thats bull**** too when using medically qualified people
to check xrays etc on the other side of the world.

"Andrew" wrote in message
...
On 17/04/2021 22:17, %% wrote:


"Andrew" wrote in message
...
On 17/04/2021 16:08, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

and with the internet work doesn't need to be further away than a
laptop



real work doesn't involve the internet.

Bull****.

That's what passes for 'work' on the internet.

More bull****. Remote diagnosis etc etc etc is nothing like that.

Same with remote reconfig of complex systems instead of
having to visit in person.

On Mon, 19 Apr 2021 05:07:25 +1000, %%, better known as cantankerous
trolling senile geezer Rodent Speed, wrote:

FLUSH the trolling senile asshole's latest troll**** unread


--
Norman Wells addressing trolling senile Rodent:
"Ah, the voice of scum speaks."
MID:

On Mon, 19 Apr 2021 05:10:17 +1000, %%, better known as cantankerous
trolling senile geezer Rodent Speed, wrote:

FLUSH the trolling senile asshole's latest troll**** unread

--
Richard addressing senile Rodent Speed:
"**** you're thick/pathetic excuse for a troll."
MID:

On 17/04/2021 11:12, Andy Bennet wrote:
On 17/04/2021 11:05, Tim Streater wrote:
On 17 Apr 2021 at 10:49:43 BST, Andy Bennet wrote:

On 17/04/2021 05:42, jon wrote:
Â* On Fri, 16 Apr 2021 15:58:46 +0100, Broadback wrote:
Â* Lots of post on them but what do they cost
Â* How is the government going to recover all the fuel tax, when the the
Â* majority of vehicles are electric.

Tyre tax.

A new tyre duty based on average milege obtainable with reasonable use
of each tyre.

Need to be a bit careful with that. Otherwise it suddenly becomes
profitable
for wide boys to start offering "low-cost" retreads on the sly and for
others
to have an extra incentive to jack your car up.


No better or worse than siphoning fuel, doing a garage fill and run, or
useing red diesel.
Any scheme will be open to illegal fiddling by the lower orders of society.



And the higher orders never commit any crimes?

Take Jeffery Archer as an example.

Have you read any of the books he wrote? Bring back hanging IMHO.



--
Adam