Cordless drill upgrsde time. Have been using argos specials but after
a whole bathroom refit the trigger is gone (Still not bad for 15 quid)

The front runners are
Screwfix 9.6 v Makita
B n Q 12 volt RYOBI

Both £75.00, Both 1 hour 2 batterys
Which?

Ryobi seems to be B n Q only (cannot find it on net anywhere else)
Ryobi has 2 year warranty MAK has 1
Ryobi has built in spirit levels which look kind of fun BUT do they
actually work.
Also MAKTEC is turning up on EBAY quite a lot.

http://tinyurl.com/3ds4z

What is this (ignoring the puff which states that they have the same
quality) Is this worth considering?
MAKITAs website is curiously quiet about this.
Basically is a 75 quid MAK better than a 75 quid 12 V RYOBI?

Usage Advanced DIY + occasional trunking job CAT5

Cheers Phil

Phil wrote:
Cordless drill upgrsde time. Have been using argos specials but after
a whole bathroom refit the trigger is gone (Still not bad for 15 quid)

The front runners are
Screwfix 9.6 v Makita
B n Q 12 volt RYOBI

Both £75.00, Both 1 hour 2 batterys
Which?

Ryobi seems to be B n Q only (cannot find it on net anywhere else)
Ryobi has 2 year warranty MAK has 1
Ryobi has built in spirit levels which look kind of fun BUT do they
actually work.
Also MAKTEC is turning up on EBAY quite a lot.

http://tinyurl.com/3ds4z

What is this (ignoring the puff which states that they have the same
quality) Is this worth considering?
MAKITAs website is curiously quiet about this.
Basically is a 75 quid MAK better than a 75 quid 12 V RYOBI?

Usage Advanced DIY + occasional trunking job CAT5

Cheers Phil

I've got both a makita and a ryobi drill driver and though ryobi has
lasted very well the makita feels tougher.

I buy all my makita tools from lawson who are the uk main dealer and
have usually had good service. There is a deal on the 9.6v drill/driver
at the moment but it's not cheaper than screwfix.

http://www.lawson-his.co.uk/scripts/...&product=14038

hth

Nick

"Phil" wrote in message
m...
Cordless drill upgrsde time. Have been using argos specials but after
a whole bathroom refit the trigger is gone (Still not bad for 15 quid)

The front runners are
Screwfix 9.6 v Makita
B n Q 12 volt RYOBI

Both £75.00, Both 1 hour 2 batterys
Which?

Ryobi seems to be B n Q only (cannot find it on net anywhere else)
Ryobi has 2 year warranty MAK has 1
Ryobi has built in spirit levels which look kind of fun BUT do they
actually work.
Also MAKTEC is turning up on EBAY quite a lot.

http://tinyurl.com/3ds4z

What is this (ignoring the puff which states that they have the same
quality) Is this worth considering?
MAKITAs website is curiously quiet about this.
Basically is a 75 quid MAK better than a 75 quid 12 V RYOBI?

Usage Advanced DIY + occasional trunking job CAT5

Cheers Phil

Costco sell Ryobi.
Both makes are good, but Makita has the edge.

MrCheerful

Makita win on all counts. I have used Makita for over 20 years with very
little need for service or repairs. If required parts are easily available
for Makita - for example I managed to damage the plastic guard on my
compound sliding mitre saw and they replaced it and a few other bits (like
springs etc for around 10 quid).

My memory of ryobi from Costco (which is a great place to shop) is that
although Costcos after sales is great (i.e. no questions refund when needed)
that Ryobi were less helpful.

My advice would be to buy the Makita 8443D Drill Driver/Hammer - and the
hammer really works for anything up to brick with ease. It is not big and
runs for ages. It is expensive but I can point you towards a Travis Perkins
(of all places) that will supply at around half the RRP including the vat.

Hope this helps.

John

"Phil" wrote in message
m...
Cordless drill upgrsde time. Have been using argos specials but after
a whole bathroom refit the trigger is gone (Still not bad for 15 quid)

The front runners are
Screwfix 9.6 v Makita
B n Q 12 volt RYOBI

Both £75.00, Both 1 hour 2 batterys
Which?

Ryobi seems to be B n Q only (cannot find it on net anywhere else)
Ryobi has 2 year warranty MAK has 1
Ryobi has built in spirit levels which look kind of fun BUT do they
actually work.
Also MAKTEC is turning up on EBAY quite a lot.

http://tinyurl.com/3ds4z

What is this (ignoring the puff which states that they have the same
quality) Is this worth considering?
MAKITAs website is curiously quiet about this.
Basically is a 75 quid MAK better than a 75 quid 12 V RYOBI?

Usage Advanced DIY + occasional trunking job CAT5

Cheers Phil

In message ,
(Phil) wrote:

Cordless drill upgrsde time. Have been using argos specials but after
a whole bathroom refit the trigger is gone (Still not bad for 15 quid)

The front runners are
Screwfix 9.6 v Makita
B n Q 12 volt RYOBI

Both £75.00, Both 1 hour 2 batterys
Which?


Ever considered Axminster? IIRC their 18V "White" combi drill with 2
NiMH batteries and a 90 minute charger is about the same price. If an
Argos Special has been doing ok for you so far, this might just be
enough of a jump in quality?

Having said that, it isn't a Makita - I'm now on my third White.
Axminster have been great about replacing them so far, but since I use
this tool quite a lot in my work I'm beginning to wish I'd spent more
money on one of the higher-spec Maks. First one speed control failed
(trigger became on/off - kept this as a spare). Second one got hot, speed
control started failing (i.e. was intermittent) and then, even though I was
nursing it by letting it rest between holes, it stopped altogether. We'll
see how the third one gets on.

And no, I wasn't using it beyond its spec. When the second one failed I
was using it to auger 20mm holes in wooden joists, and clearing out the
holes regularly.

Perhaps the Makita would be better ;-)

Hwyl!

M.

--
Martin Angove: http://www.tridwr.demon.co.uk/
Two free issues: http://www.livtech.co.uk/ Living With Technology
.... Claravoiant meeting canceled due to unforseen events.

"Phil" wrote in message
m...
Cordless drill upgrsde time. Have been using argos specials but after
a whole bathroom refit the trigger is gone (Still not bad for 15 quid)

The front runners are
Screwfix 9.6 v Makita
B n Q 12 volt RYOBI

Both £75.00, Both 1 hour 2 batterys
Which?

Ryobi seems to be B n Q only (cannot find it on net anywhere else)
Ryobi has 2 year warranty MAK has 1
Ryobi has built in spirit levels which look kind of fun BUT do they
actually work.
Also MAKTEC is turning up on EBAY quite a lot.

http://tinyurl.com/3ds4z

What is this (ignoring the puff which states that they have the same
quality) Is this worth considering?
MAKITAs website is curiously quiet about this.
Basically is a 75 quid MAK better than a 75 quid 12 V RYOBI?

Usage Advanced DIY + occasional trunking job CAT5

Cheers Phil



RYOBI, DeWALT, BOSCH, REXON, Rapesco, power tools can also be purchased
fropm:-
www.toolstation.com who reside in Bristol.

I was very surprised at their prices when they sent me their catalogue
recently.


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.600 / Virus Database: 381 - Release Date: 28/02/2004

"Martin Angove" wrote in message
...
In message ,
(Phil) wrote:

Cordless drill upgrsde time. Have been using argos specials but after
a whole bathroom refit the trigger is gone (Still not bad for 15 quid)

The front runners are
Screwfix 9.6 v Makita
B n Q 12 volt RYOBI

Both £75.00, Both 1 hour 2 batterys
Which?


Ever considered Axminster? IIRC their 18V "White" combi drill with 2
NiMH batteries and a 90 minute charger is about the same price. If an
Argos Special has been doing ok for you so far, this might just be
enough of a jump in quality?

Instead of a White, try a Wickes drill. They are made by Kress.

Having said that, it isn't a Makita - I'm now on my third White.
Axminster have been great about replacing them so far, but since I use
this tool quite a lot in my work I'm beginning to wish I'd spent more
money on one of the higher-spec Maks. First one speed control failed
(trigger became on/off - kept this as a spare). Second one got hot, speed
control started failing (i.e. was intermittent) and then, even though I
was
nursing it by letting it rest between holes, it stopped altogether. We'll
see how the third one gets on.

And no, I wasn't using it beyond its spec. When the second one failed I
was using it to auger 20mm holes in wooden joists, and clearing out the
holes regularly.

Perhaps the Makita would be better ;-)

Most certainly they would. When it come to constant pro use these tools are
the business. for semi-pro and DIY, better alternatives on price/performance
are available.

On 2 Mar 2004 01:54:28 -0800, (Phil) wrote:

Cordless drill upgrsde time. Have been using argos specials but after
a whole bathroom refit the trigger is gone (Still not bad for 15 quid)

The front runners are
Screwfix 9.6 v Makita
B n Q 12 volt RYOBI

Both £75.00, Both 1 hour 2 batterys
Which?

Ryobi seems to be B n Q only (cannot find it on net anywhere else)
Ryobi has 2 year warranty MAK has 1
Ryobi has built in spirit levels which look kind of fun BUT do they
actually work.
Also MAKTEC is turning up on EBAY quite a lot.

http://tinyurl.com/3ds4z

What is this (ignoring the puff which states that they have the same
quality) Is this worth considering?
MAKITAs website is curiously quiet about this.
Basically is a 75 quid MAK better than a 75 quid 12 V RYOBI?

Usage Advanced DIY + occasional trunking job CAT5

Cheers Phil

I've never found it useful to do comparisons of power tools on a fixed
price basis when the comparison is different categories of tool at the
same price point.

In cordless tools, especially drills/screwdrivers the key points a

- build quality (which determines quality of use and reliability)
- battery quality (which has an impact on power and run time)
- speed controller (which determines how good the drill is for mixed
work)
- weight and balance (which determines comfort of use)
- service and spares backup

A 9.6v ordinary drill may not be as powerful as a 12v one, although if
well engineered and with good batteries could be. For example, I
recently read a review of a Panasonic drill which was in teh £200
range and with a 15.6v battery outperformed the 18v models in a
similar to slightly lower price group.

I suspect though, that in general a good 9.6v tool might get close to
a poor 12v one. One exception is the Makita angle drivers, which
have a low gearing and perform certainly better than the next voltage
up in standard tools.

If your objective is to meet a price point, then it is going to be a
trade off on performance and relaibility. I have several Makita
cordless tools and all of them are excellent against all the criteria
that I've mentioned, especially relaibility and motor control.

Bear in mind that B&Q do not provide for a spares and repair
capability for their power tools. The assumption is that you get a
warranty of 1-3 years and if it breaks after that then you bin the
tool and buy another. They play the numbers game. I personally
prefer to provide products that are better quality and for which
support and spares are available.

A more useful comparison is to compare tools in the same voltage class
- i.e. compare the Ryobi 12v product with the Makita one and decide
whether the extra quality and service of the Makita justify themselves
to you for your application. From my own experience, there's no
contest and I think that the Makita products are worth the extra
money. Go and try them out.



It is worth choosing a brand for several tool types if you can because
commonality of batteries is useful.




..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2 Mar 2004 01:54:28 -0800, (Phil) wrote:

Cordless drill upgrsde time. Have been using argos specials but after
a whole bathroom refit the trigger is gone (Still not bad for 15 quid)

The front runners are
Screwfix 9.6 v Makita
B n Q 12 volt RYOBI

Both £75.00, Both 1 hour 2 batterys
Which?

Ryobi seems to be B n Q only (cannot find it on net anywhere else)
Ryobi has 2 year warranty MAK has 1
Ryobi has built in spirit levels which look kind of fun BUT do they
actually work.
Also MAKTEC is turning up on EBAY quite a lot.

http://tinyurl.com/3ds4z

What is this (ignoring the puff which states that they have the same
quality) Is this worth considering?
MAKITAs website is curiously quiet about this.
Basically is a 75 quid MAK better than a 75 quid 12 V RYOBI?

Usage Advanced DIY + occasional trunking job CAT5

Cheers Phil

I've never found it useful to do comparisons of power tools on a fixed
price basis when the comparison is different categories of tool at the
same price point.

In cordless tools, especially drills/screwdrivers the key points a

- build quality (which determines quality of use and reliability)
- battery quality (which has an impact on power and run time)
- speed controller (which determines how good the drill is for mixed
work)
- weight and balance (which determines comfort of use)
- service and spares backup

A 9.6v ordinary drill may not be as powerful as a 12v one, although if
well engineered and with good batteries could be. For example, I
recently read a review of a Panasonic drill which was in teh £200
range and with a 15.6v battery outperformed the 18v models in a
similar to slightly lower price group.

I suspect though, that in general a good 9.6v tool might get close to
a poor 12v one. One exception is the Makita angle drivers, which
have a low gearing and perform certainly better than the next voltage
up in standard tools.

If your objective is to meet a price point, then it is going to be a
trade off on performance and relaibility. I have several Makita
cordless tools and all of them are excellent against all the criteria
that I've mentioned, especially relaibility and motor control.

Bear in mind that B&Q do not provide for a spares and repair
capability for their power tools. The assumption is that you get a
warranty of 1-3 years and if it breaks after that then you bin the
tool and buy another. They play the numbers game. I personally
prefer to provide products that are better quality and for which
support and spares are available.

But is it worth spending £40 on a repair on 5 years old tool costing £6-70?
I would rather buy a new one, and the quality, performance, etc will
probably be better then.

A more useful comparison is to compare tools in the same voltage class
- i.e. compare the Ryobi 12v product with the Makita one and decide
whether the extra quality and service of the Makita justify themselves
to you for your application.

Yes, you must compare like with like.

From my own experience, there's no
contest and I think that the Makita products are worth the extra
money. Go and try them out.

If a Makita is slightly more expensive then it is worth going for. If it is
twice the price for a semi-pro/DIY use, then it is worth assessing other
models.

"John Durham" wrote in message
news:VQ31c.1754$qP4.89@newsfe1-win...
Makita win on all counts. I have used Makita for over 20 years with very
little need for service or repairs. If required parts are easily
available
for Makita - for example I managed to damage the plastic guard on my
compound sliding mitre saw and they replaced it and a few other bits (like
springs etc for around 10 quid).

My memory of ryobi from Costco (which is a great place to shop) is that
although Costcos after sales is great (i.e. no questions refund when
needed)
that Ryobi were less helpful.

My advice would be to buy the Makita 8443D Drill Driver/Hammer - and the
hammer really works for anything up to brick with ease.

What price? This is important for light use. A hammer drill? Get a
drill/driver only and an SDS drill. I have not used a hammer drill for a
long time since I bought the SDS. No contest.

It is not big and
runs for ages. It is expensive but I can point you towards a Travis
Perkins
(of all places) that will supply at around half the RRP including the vat.

Hope this helps.

On Wed, 3 Mar 2004 10:54:19 -0000, "IMM" wrote:




But is it worth spending £40 on a repair on 5 years old tool costing £6-70?
I would rather buy a new one, and the quality, performance, etc will
probably be better then.

Probably not. Generally, Makita spares for the typical consumables
are not that expensive and repair oneself is easy enough. I think
that £20-30 worth of spares for a £150 tool is worthwhile. In
practice, though, with Makita stuff the longevity and robustness is
such that repair is not a big issue anyway.




A more useful comparison is to compare tools in the same voltage class
- i.e. compare the Ryobi 12v product with the Makita one and decide
whether the extra quality and service of the Makita justify themselves
to you for your application.

Yes, you must compare like with like.

From my own experience, there's no
contest and I think that the Makita products are worth the extra
money. Go and try them out.

If a Makita is slightly more expensive then it is worth going for. If it is
twice the price for a semi-pro/DIY use, then it is worth assessing other
models.

It really depends on use and what one is trying to achieve.


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 3 Mar 2004 10:54:19 -0000, "IMM" wrote:




But is it worth spending £40 on a repair on 5 years old tool costing
£6-70?
I would rather buy a new one, and the quality, performance, etc will
probably be better then.

Probably not. Generally, Makita spares for the typical consumables
are not that expensive and repair oneself is easy enough. I think
that £20-30 worth of spares for a £150 tool is worthwhile. In
practice, though, with Makita stuff the longevity and robustness is
such that repair is not a big issue anyway.

It is a big issue when used for what it is intended; heavy every day
professional use. When for DIY they should last, but the price then become
unacceptable for light use.

A more useful comparison is to compare tools in the same voltage class
- i.e. compare the Ryobi 12v product with the Makita one and decide
whether the extra quality and service of the Makita justify themselves
to you for your application.

Yes, you must compare like with like.

From my own experience, there's no
contest and I think that the Makita products are worth the extra
money. Go and try them out.

If a Makita is slightly more expensive then it is worth going for. If it
is
twice the price for a semi-pro/DIY use, then it is worth assessing other
models.

It really depends on use and what one is trying to achieve.

On Wed, 03 Mar 2004 11:44:51 +0000, in uk.d-i-y Andy Hall
strung together this:

On Wed, 3 Mar 2004 10:54:19 -0000, "IMM" wrote:




But is it worth spending £40 on a repair on 5 years old tool costing £6-70?
I would rather buy a new one, and the quality, performance, etc will
probably be better then.

Probably not. Generally, Makita spares for the typical consumables
are not that expensive and repair oneself is easy enough. I think
that £20-30 worth of spares for a £150 tool is worthwhile. In
practice, though, with Makita stuff the longevity and robustness is
such that repair is not a big issue anyway.

I've just had 2 Makita drills repaired. An ageing HR2410 which had new
seals, chuck bearings and a general service. Total cost was £12. The
other was a 8443D, a new motor, bearings and general service was just
short of £35. The total cost of the two drills was about £370. A
bargain me thinks, considering they do get some abuse.
...

SJW
A.C.S. Ltd.

"Lurch" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 03 Mar 2004 11:44:51 +0000, in uk.d-i-y Andy Hall
strung together this:

On Wed, 3 Mar 2004 10:54:19 -0000, "IMM" wrote:




But is it worth spending £40 on a repair on 5 years old tool costing
£6-70?
I would rather buy a new one, and the quality, performance, etc will
probably be better then.

Probably not. Generally, Makita spares for the typical consumables
are not that expensive and repair oneself is easy enough. I think
that £20-30 worth of spares for a £150 tool is worthwhile. In
practice, though, with Makita stuff the longevity and robustness is
such that repair is not a big issue anyway.

I've just had 2 Makita drills repaired. An ageing HR2410 which had new
seals, chuck bearings and a general service. Total cost was £12. The
other was a 8443D, a new motor, bearings and general service was just
short of £35.

Was that inc labour? £35? A good decent drill/driver can be had now for
£50-60 inc 2 or 3 year guarantees.

The total cost of the two drills was about £370.

Which will be cheaper now, and the current equiv will most liklely be a far,
far less than £370. Battery drill prices have tumbled along with SDS's.

In article ,
IMM wrote:
Perhaps the Makita would be better ;-)

Most certainly they would. When it come to constant pro use these tools
are the business. for semi-pro and DIY, better alternatives on
price/performance are available.

In what way are there better performing tools for DIY or semi-pro use?

--
*Sherlock Holmes never said "Elementary, my dear Watson" *

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

On Wed, 3 Mar 2004 12:49:37 -0000, in uk.d-i-y "IMM"
strung together this:


"Lurch" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 03 Mar 2004 11:44:51 +0000, in uk.d-i-y Andy Hall
strung together this:

On Wed, 3 Mar 2004 10:54:19 -0000, "IMM" wrote:




But is it worth spending £40 on a repair on 5 years old tool costing
£6-70?
I would rather buy a new one, and the quality, performance, etc will
probably be better then.

Probably not. Generally, Makita spares for the typical consumables
are not that expensive and repair oneself is easy enough. I think
that £20-30 worth of spares for a £150 tool is worthwhile. In
practice, though, with Makita stuff the longevity and robustness is
such that repair is not a big issue anyway.

I've just had 2 Makita drills repaired. An ageing HR2410 which had new
seals, chuck bearings and a general service. Total cost was £12. The
other was a 8443D, a new motor, bearings and general service was just
short of £35.

Was that inc labour? £35?

All including labour, vat, materials. All in prices quoted.

A good decent drill/driver can be had now for
£50-60 inc 2 or 3 year guarantees.

My Makita battery drill was £235, I've seen them for £200 recently.
The £50-60 drills won't do what my Makita can.

The total cost of the two drills was about £370.

Which will be cheaper now, and the current equiv will most liklely be a far,
far less than £370. Battery drill prices have tumbled along with SDS's.

Still about £250-300 though for like for like drills.
...

SJW
A.C.S. Ltd.

On Wed, 3 Mar 2004 12:30:36 -0000, "IMM" wrote:




But is it worth spending £40 on a repair on 5 years old tool costing
£6-70?
I would rather buy a new one, and the quality, performance, etc will
probably be better then.

Probably not. Generally, Makita spares for the typical consumables
are not that expensive and repair oneself is easy enough. I think
that £20-30 worth of spares for a £150 tool is worthwhile. In
practice, though, with Makita stuff the longevity and robustness is
such that repair is not a big issue anyway.

It is a big issue when used for what it is intended; heavy every day
professional use. When for DIY they should last, but the price then become
unacceptable for light use.


This all depends on your view of things.

Some people view DIY mainly as a means of saving money. If that is
the main criterion which overrides ease of use and reliability of
tools, quality of result and cost of ownership and usage is very
light, then it may make sense to buy a cheap tool if it can produce
work to a standard acceptable to the user.

I take a rather different view which is that I do DIY jobs because I
like doing them and because I can, in many cases do a better job than
a professional. Cost is a factor, but not the most important one.
I look at total cost of ownership over the lifetime of the tool, but
more importantly the quality of work I can achieve with it vs. the
cost.

I also look at whether it can save time in doing a job or make it more
pleasurable. If there is a job that I am not enthused about doing,
but that is made acceptable and I can get a good result that I
couldn't otherwise by buying a particular tool, I will buy it if I can
cover a reasonable amount of the cost as a saving vs. a professional
doing the job.

Likewise if it is a timesaving situation. That then depends on how
one costs one's time. Some people trade time for cost in the
direction of cost being more important. WIthin reason, I tend to work
the other way. If I have to waste a couple of hours returning a
tool that isn't up to the job or has failed, then to me, that is
wasting far more effort and money than buying a decent one in the
first place.

Especially in the field of motorised tools like drills and routers, a
good quality motor with proper control, power and decent bearings and
mechanics makes a huge difference in terms of use and quality of work
to one that is produced to a low price point.

I have found that more often than not, if I buy cheap tools, they are
either not robust, poor in use, don't do accurate work or fail.
In the past I've done that and for me the waste of time and
frustration simply isn't worth it.

I'm now at the point where almost all of my hand and power tools are
mid to high end products of good brands. It pays off. If I have a
problem, which is extremely rare, then I can justifiably go back to
the supplier and have it fixed as well as receiving compensation for
the effort involved. To me, that's a far more useful proposition -
total cost of ownership being more important than purchase price.

In the last few years, I have had only one issue with what should be a
decent branded tool. That was a DeWalt biscuit jointer - a mid
priced product - which had a design defect. It was returned to the
supplier - Axminster Power Tools, who collected it from me, refunded
the purchase price and gave me an additional credit as well. I
bought a Lamello one instead and that is superb.


As I say, I can understand that some people like to take a mainly cost
view of purchases. That's fine by me, but there are broader issues
and differing perspectives.

..
..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Wed, 3 Mar 2004 12:49:37 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"Lurch" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 03 Mar 2004 11:44:51 +0000, in uk.d-i-y Andy Hall
strung together this:

On Wed, 3 Mar 2004 10:54:19 -0000, "IMM" wrote:




But is it worth spending £40 on a repair on 5 years old tool costing
£6-70?
I would rather buy a new one, and the quality, performance, etc will
probably be better then.

Probably not. Generally, Makita spares for the typical consumables
are not that expensive and repair oneself is easy enough. I think
that £20-30 worth of spares for a £150 tool is worthwhile. In
practice, though, with Makita stuff the longevity and robustness is
such that repair is not a big issue anyway.

I've just had 2 Makita drills repaired. An ageing HR2410 which had new
seals, chuck bearings and a general service. Total cost was £12. The
other was a 8443D, a new motor, bearings and general service was just
short of £35.

Was that inc labour? £35? A good decent drill/driver can be had now for
£50-60 inc 2 or 3 year guarantees.

That depends on your definitions of good and decent and whether you
want to throw something out after 2-3 years. To my mind, £50-60
does not buy a decent drill.



The total cost of the two drills was about £370.

Which will be cheaper now, and the current equiv will most liklely be a far,
far less than £370. Battery drill prices have tumbled along with SDS's.


More to the point is that you can get better products at the same
price.



..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

In article ,
IMM wrote:
A good decent drill/driver can be had now for £50-60 inc 2 or 3 year
guarantees.

That warranty doesn't apply for pro use.

--
*The severity of the itch is proportional to the reach *

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 3 Mar 2004 12:30:36 -0000, "IMM" wrote:




But is it worth spending £40 on a repair on 5 years old tool costing
£6-70?
I would rather buy a new one, and the quality, performance, etc will
probably be better then.

Probably not. Generally, Makita spares for the typical consumables
are not that expensive and repair oneself is easy enough. I think
that £20-30 worth of spares for a £150 tool is worthwhile. In
practice, though, with Makita stuff the longevity and robustness is
such that repair is not a big issue anyway.

It is a big issue when used for what it is intended; heavy every day
professional use. When for DIY they should last, but the price then
become
unacceptable for light use.


This all depends on your view of things.

Some people view DIY mainly as a means of saving money. If that is
the main criterion which overrides ease of use and reliability of
tools, quality of result and cost of ownership and usage is very
light, then it may make sense to buy a cheap tool if it can produce
work to a standard acceptable to the user.

What makes you think DIY tools are poor quality? When used for their
intended use they are as reliable as any pro tool.

I take a rather different view which is that I do DIY jobs because I
like doing them and because I can, in many cases do a better job than
a professional.

If someone likes expensive items then fine by me. Commons sense and
business logic dictates to buy the tools that suit the job an usage.

Especially in the field of motorised tools like drills and routers, a
good quality motor with proper control, power and decent bearings and
mechanics makes a huge difference in terms of use and quality of work
to one that is produced to a low price point.

If high precision is required for either DIY or pro then you buy
accordingly.

I have found that more often than not, if I buy cheap tools, they are
either not robust, poor in use, don't do accurate work or fail.

No one is advocating cheap tools. It is a matter of getting the right tools
for the job and usage. You appear to think that only the most expensive pro
tool is of good quality and reliability, which of course is nonsense.

"Lurch" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 3 Mar 2004 12:49:37 -0000, in uk.d-i-y "IMM"
strung together this:


"Lurch" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 03 Mar 2004 11:44:51 +0000, in uk.d-i-y Andy Hall
strung together this:

On Wed, 3 Mar 2004 10:54:19 -0000, "IMM" wrote:




But is it worth spending £40 on a repair on 5 years old tool costing
£6-70?
I would rather buy a new one, and the quality, performance, etc will
probably be better then.

Probably not. Generally, Makita spares for the typical consumables
are not that expensive and repair oneself is easy enough. I think
that £20-30 worth of spares for a £150 tool is worthwhile. In
practice, though, with Makita stuff the longevity and robustness is
such that repair is not a big issue anyway.

I've just had 2 Makita drills repaired. An ageing HR2410 which had new
seals, chuck bearings and a general service. Total cost was £12. The
other was a 8443D, a new motor, bearings and general service was just
short of £35.

Was that inc labour? £35?

All including labour, vat, materials. All in prices quoted.

A good decent drill/driver can be had now for
£50-60 inc 2 or 3 year guarantees.

My Makita battery drill was £235, I've seen them for £200 recently.
The £50-60 drills won't do what my Makita can.

It can! The makita will last longer with day to day pro use, that's all.

The total cost of the two drills was about £370.

Which will be cheaper now, and the current equiv will most liklely be a
far,
far less than £370. Battery drill prices have tumbled along with SDS's.

Still about £250-300 though for like for like drills.

A DIYer paying over £20 for battery drill is madness. Even few pros don't
pay that these days.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 3 Mar 2004 12:49:37 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"Lurch" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 03 Mar 2004 11:44:51 +0000, in uk.d-i-y Andy Hall
strung together this:

On Wed, 3 Mar 2004 10:54:19 -0000, "IMM" wrote:




But is it worth spending £40 on a repair on 5 years old tool costing
£6-70?
I would rather buy a new one, and the quality, performance, etc will
probably be better then.

Probably not. Generally, Makita spares for the typical consumables
are not that expensive and repair oneself is easy enough. I think
that £20-30 worth of spares for a £150 tool is worthwhile. In
practice, though, with Makita stuff the longevity and robustness is
such that repair is not a big issue anyway.

I've just had 2 Makita drills repaired. An ageing HR2410 which had new
seals, chuck bearings and a general service. Total cost was £12. The
other was a 8443D, a new motor, bearings and general service was just
short of £35.

Was that inc labour? £35? A good decent drill/driver can be had now for
£50-60 inc 2 or 3 year guarantees.

That depends on your definitions of good and decent and whether you
want to throw something out after 2-3 years.

You have nonsense in your mind that DIY tools only last 2-3 years. My 1980
B&D is still going.

To my mind, £50-60
does not buy a decent drill.

Look around then.

The total cost of the two drills was about £370.

Which will be cheaper now, and the current equiv will most liklely be a
far,
far less than £370. Battery drill prices have tumbled along with SDS's.


More to the point is that you can get better products at the same
price.



.andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Wed, 3 Mar 2004 14:18:31 -0000, in uk.d-i-y "IMM"
strung together this:

I've just had 2 Makita drills repaired. An ageing HR2410 which had new
seals, chuck bearings and a general service. Total cost was £12. The
other was a 8443D, a new motor, bearings and general service was just
short of £35.

Was that inc labour? £35?

All including labour, vat, materials. All in prices quoted.

A good decent drill/driver can be had now for
£50-60 inc 2 or 3 year guarantees.

My Makita battery drill was £235, I've seen them for £200 recently.
The £50-60 drills won't do what my Makita can.

It can! The makita will last longer with day to day pro use, that's all.

Now you're just talking ******** again.

The total cost of the two drills was about £370.

Which will be cheaper now, and the current equiv will most liklely be a
far,
far less than £370. Battery drill prices have tumbled along with SDS's.

Still about £250-300 though for like for like drills.

A DIYer paying over £20 for battery drill is madness. Even few pros don't
pay that these days.

Define 'pro'.
I have a cheap battery drill, cost a tenner. I's ok for use as a
screwdriver but there is nowhere near enough power to do even a
fraction of what my Makita can. I suggest you actually post when you
have a vague understanding of what you're drivelling on about.
...

SJW
A.C.S. Ltd.

"Lurch" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 3 Mar 2004 14:18:31 -0000, in uk.d-i-y "IMM"
strung together this:

I've just had 2 Makita drills repaired. An ageing HR2410 which had
new
seals, chuck bearings and a general service. Total cost was £12. The
other was a 8443D, a new motor, bearings and general service was
just
short of £35.

Was that inc labour? £35?

All including labour, vat, materials. All in prices quoted.

A good decent drill/driver can be had now for
£50-60 inc 2 or 3 year guarantees.

My Makita battery drill was £235, I've seen them for £200 recently.
The £50-60 drills won't do what my Makita can.

It can! The makita will last longer with day to day pro use, that's all.

Now you're just talking ******** again.

Again? I never talk ******** at all. What can the Makita do that is so
magic?

The total cost of the two drills was about £370.

Which will be cheaper now, and the current equiv will most liklely be
a
far,
far less than £370. Battery drill prices have tumbled along with
SDS's.

Still about £250-300 though for like for like drills.

A DIYer paying over £20 for battery drill is madness. Even few pros
don't
pay that these days.

Define 'pro'.

Please.

I have a cheap battery drill, cost a tenner. I's ok for use as a
screwdriver but there is nowhere near enough power to do even a
fraction of what my Makita can.

Here they go again. They compare the cheapest and nastiest and attempt to
pass this off as the norm.

I suggest you actually post when you
have a vague understanding of what you're drivelling on about.

Another nutter who thinks price is the only criteria of quality and
performance. And certainly telling himself lies to give himself a warm
feeling to justify silly prices paid.

On Wed, 3 Mar 2004 14:06:40 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 3 Mar 2004 12:30:36 -0000, "IMM" wrote:




But is it worth spending £40 on a repair on 5 years old tool costing
£6-70?
I would rather buy a new one, and the quality, performance, etc will
probably be better then.

Probably not. Generally, Makita spares for the typical consumables
are not that expensive and repair oneself is easy enough. I think
that £20-30 worth of spares for a £150 tool is worthwhile. In
practice, though, with Makita stuff the longevity and robustness is
such that repair is not a big issue anyway.

It is a big issue when used for what it is intended; heavy every day
professional use. When for DIY they should last, but the price then
become
unacceptable for light use.


This all depends on your view of things.

Some people view DIY mainly as a means of saving money. If that is
the main criterion which overrides ease of use and reliability of
tools, quality of result and cost of ownership and usage is very
light, then it may make sense to buy a cheap tool if it can produce
work to a standard acceptable to the user.

What makes you think DIY tools are poor quality? When used for their
intended use they are as reliable as any pro tool.

I am talking about the quality of work and ease of use as well as
reliability in the sense of work/not work.



I take a rather different view which is that I do DIY jobs because I
like doing them and because I can, in many cases do a better job than
a professional.

If someone likes expensive items then fine by me. Commons sense and
business logic dictates to buy the tools that suit the job an usage.


Exactly.

Especially in the field of motorised tools like drills and routers, a
good quality motor with proper control, power and decent bearings and
mechanics makes a huge difference in terms of use and quality of work
to one that is produced to a low price point.

If high precision is required for either DIY or pro then you buy
accordingly.

I like to be able to do a good job and to do so comfortably and
efficiently.



I have found that more often than not, if I buy cheap tools, they are
either not robust, poor in use, don't do accurate work or fail.

No one is advocating cheap tools. It is a matter of getting the right tools
for the job and usage. You appear to think that only the most expensive pro
tool is of good quality and reliability, which of course is nonsense.

I haven't said that at all. I have simply said that when measured
against the criteria that I have, it is very clear to me that I can
get a level of quality and reliability from branded tools at the
medium and high end that I can't from low end private label stuff.





..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Wed, 3 Mar 2004 14:18:31 -0000, "IMM" wrote:



A good decent drill/driver can be had now for
£50-60 inc 2 or 3 year guarantees.

My Makita battery drill was £235, I've seen them for £200 recently.
The £50-60 drills won't do what my Makita can.

It can! The makita will last longer with day to day pro use, that's all.

That is completely untrue. The speed and torque control, battery
behaviour and clutch arrangements are vastly superior to private label
£50 jobs.



The total cost of the two drills was about £370.

Which will be cheaper now, and the current equiv will most liklely be a
far,
far less than £370. Battery drill prices have tumbled along with SDS's.

Still about £250-300 though for like for like drills.

A DIYer paying over £20 for battery drill is madness. Even few pros don't
pay that these days.

No it isn't.

Once again you are making the mistake of assuming that DIY
automatically equates with cheap. For some people that is the case,
for others it isn't.


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Wed, 3 Mar 2004 14:21:46 -0000, "IMM" wrote:



Was that inc labour? £35? A good decent drill/driver can be had now for
£50-60 inc 2 or 3 year guarantees.

That depends on your definitions of good and decent and whether you
want to throw something out after 2-3 years.

You have nonsense in your mind that DIY tools only last 2-3 years. My 1980
B&D is still going.

I never have nonsense in my mind.

I was referring more to the cheap private labelled stuff that is sold
on a disposable basis by the DIY stores. My experience with products
of that type has been disappointing in terms of quality and
reliability. I don't have the time to waste to go and buy any more
tools in this category because the chances are more than evens that I
will be disappointed because of reliability, quality of result or ease
of use. I would rather just buy a decent thing once and be done
with it.

Some B&D products, certainly of that era are quite good for what they
are and I still have one or two. They don't get a lot of use any
longer because I have better ones now.



To my mind, £50-60
does not buy a decent drill.

Look around then.

I have. It doesn't as far as I am concerned



..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

In article ,
IMM wrote:
A DIYer paying over £20 for battery drill is madness. Even few pros
don't pay that these days.

Says more about your definition of 'pro' than anything else...

--
*Some days we are the flies; some days we are the windscreen.*

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 3 Mar 2004 14:18:31 -0000, "IMM" wrote:



A good decent drill/driver can be had now for
£50-60 inc 2 or 3 year guarantees.

My Makita battery drill was £235, I've seen them for £200 recently.
The £50-60 drills won't do what my Makita can.

It can! The makita will last longer with day to day pro use, that's all.

That is completely untrue. The speed and torque control, battery
behaviour and clutch arrangements are vastly superior to private label
£50 jobs.

Well go to £70-80 then, like the Wickes drill, which is a Kress, and still
you can buy about 3 of these to a makita equiv.

The total cost of the two drills was about £370.

Which will be cheaper now, and the current equiv will most liklely be
a
far,
far less than £370. Battery drill prices have tumbled along with
SDS's.

Still about £250-300 though for like for like drills.

A DIYer paying over £20 for battery drill is madness. Even few pros
don't
pay that these days.

No it isn't.

Once again you are making the mistake of assuming that DIY
automatically equates with cheap. For some people that is the case,
for others it isn't.

should have been:
"A DIYer paying over £200 for battery drill is madness. Even few pros don't
pay that these days."

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 3 Mar 2004 14:21:46 -0000, "IMM" wrote:



Was that inc labour? £35? A good decent drill/driver can be had now
for
£50-60 inc 2 or 3 year guarantees.

That depends on your definitions of good and decent and whether you
want to throw something out after 2-3 years.

You have nonsense in your mind that DIY tools only last 2-3 years. My
1980
B&D is still going.

I never have nonsense in my mind.

You jest of course.

I was referring more to the cheap private labelled stuff that is sold
on a disposable basis by the DIY stores.

The thread morphed into rip-pff pro tools to medium priced semi-pro/DIY
usage tools.

My experience with products
of that type has been disappointing
in terms of quality and
reliability.

I have had appalling experiences with Bosch tools, to the point that I don't
buy expensive rip-off tools anymore. I, like most people on this ng, don't
use power tools constantly on a day to day basis, so buying these sort of
super expensive tools is madness.

On Wed, 3 Mar 2004 18:20:06 -0000, in uk.d-i-y "IMM"
strung together this:

I have had appalling experiences with Bosch tools, to the point that I don't
buy expensive rip-off tools anymore.

The problem there is Bosch are overpriced DIY tools so don't fall into
the pro category other than on price.

I, like most people on this ng, don't
use power tools constantly on a day to day basis, so buying these sort of
super expensive tools is madness.

I didn't notice anyone saying DIY'ers should be spending hundreds of
pounds on power tools, merely that DIY tools are for light duty use,
professional, branded makes are more for the pro market.
--

SJW
A.C.S. Ltd.

"Lurch" wrote in message
...

On Wed, 3 Mar 2004 18:20:06 -0000, in uk.d-i-y "IMM"
strung together this:

I have had appalling experiences with Bosch tools, to the point that I
don't
buy expensive rip-off tools anymore.

The problem there is Bosch are overpriced DIY tools so don't fall into
the pro category other than on price.

I, like most people on this ng, don't
use power tools constantly on a day to day basis, so buying these sort of
super expensive tools is madness.

I didn't notice anyone saying DIY'ers should be spending hundreds of
pounds on power tools, merely that DIY tools are for light duty use,
professional, branded makes are more for the pro market.

Many were defending high priced tools, while totally dismissing anything
else as rubbish, and were more than implying DIYers should buy them.

On Wed, 3 Mar 2004 18:14:51 -0000, "IMM" wrote:

e £50-60 drills won't do what my Makita can.

It can! The makita will last longer with day to day pro use, that's all.

That is completely untrue. The speed and torque control, battery
behaviour and clutch arrangements are vastly superior to private label
£50 jobs.

Well go to £70-80 then, like the Wickes drill, which is a Kress, and still
you can buy about 3 of these to a makita equiv.

That's not a meaningful comparison, as far as I am concerned. The
Makita of same voltage is not an equivalent.



should have been:
"A DIYer paying over £200 for battery drill is madness. Even few pros don't
pay that these days."


That depends on your value criteria and what you want to do.

There aren't many cordless drill drivers over £200 anyway. You can
get a Makita 14.4v model with two batteries for £183 from Axminster.


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Wed, 3 Mar 2004 18:20:06 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 3 Mar 2004 14:21:46 -0000, "IMM" wrote:



Was that inc labour? £35? A good decent drill/driver can be had now
for
£50-60 inc 2 or 3 year guarantees.

That depends on your definitions of good and decent and whether you
want to throw something out after 2-3 years.

You have nonsense in your mind that DIY tools only last 2-3 years. My
1980
B&D is still going.

I never have nonsense in my mind.

You jest of course.

No, I wouldn't want to compete with you regarding that particular
skill :-)





I have had appalling experiences with Bosch tools, to the point that I don't
buy expensive rip-off tools anymore.

That's sad. I don't buy expensive rip off tools either.

I do take the total cost of ownership into account and what I want to
achieve and find that a good guide on what to buy.

I, like most people on this ng, don't
use power tools constantly on a day to day basis, so buying these sort of
super expensive tools is madness.

It really depends on how you account for what you are doing, the
quality of work and the ease of use and reliability.

If your sole criterion is purchase cost, then you may be right. I
have several others as well and find tool purchase cost within reason
is but one aspect.





..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Wed, 3 Mar 2004 18:32:07 -0000, "IMM" wrote:

"Lurch" wrote in message
...

On Wed, 3 Mar 2004 18:20:06 -0000, in uk.d-i-y "IMM"
strung together this:

I have had appalling experiences with Bosch tools, to the point that I
don't
buy expensive rip-off tools anymore.

The problem there is Bosch are overpriced DIY tools so don't fall into
the pro category other than on price.

I, like most people on this ng, don't
use power tools constantly on a day to day basis, so buying these sort of
super expensive tools is madness.

I didn't notice anyone saying DIY'ers should be spending hundreds of
pounds on power tools, merely that DIY tools are for light duty use,
professional, branded makes are more for the pro market.

Many were defending high priced tools, while totally dismissing anything
else as rubbish, and were more than implying DIYers should buy them.

I don't think that anybody said that either. It depends on one's
point of view as to what is important.

If somebody feels that paying more for a higher quality tool is
justified for them, what they want to do and how often they want to do
it then these are their purchase criteria.

It's equally valid for somebody to take the position that the purchase
cost is the most important factor and that they will accept the
limitations of a cheaper tool.

It isn't reasonable to suggest that because something is "only for
DIY" and therefore won't be used a lot that it isn't justified to buy
a good quality product; in fact it's somewhat demeaning to somebody
wanting to DIY to a high standard and needing the tools to do it.

I've certainly never suggested that people should go out and buy
expensive tools just for the sake of it, or that one can't produce
reasonable results with a cheap tool. It's a matter of degree.

However, when you set all of this in the context of using personal
time as an alternative to using professionals, the cost of the
personal time comes into the equation as well as the result. When all
of those factors are considered, things that can be done to maximise
the use of DIY time and produce a good and satisfying result become
important. If buying a good quality tool helps to produce a good
result in a good timescale and results in less user fatigue and wasted
time, then it is worth considering, in my view..


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Wed, 03 Mar 2004 18:28:43 GMT, (Lurch)
wrote:

On Wed, 3 Mar 2004 18:20:06 -0000, in uk.d-i-y "IMM"
strung together this:

I have had appalling experiences with Bosch tools, to the point that I don't
buy expensive rip-off tools anymore.

The problem there is Bosch are overpriced DIY tools so don't fall into
the pro category other than on price.

snip

Can't agree. We have quite a few blue Bosch cordless drills and they
give very little trouble. They are worked hard, which encompasses the
full panoply of abuse, dropped, kicked, walked on, left to rattle
around in the back of a van and they survive fine. The only complaint
we have is that if a long double ended posi drive bit is used without
a bit holder it can un-screw the chuck. We have a local service agent
but have never needed him

Previously we ran Elu and they were fairly bullet proof also.

We have Makita also and service is easily obtained. They last the
course also and batteries last and last.

A small Hitachi, 9.6v, is also a favourite due to its small size and
light weight, but only used realy as a screw driver. The batteries
don't last as long.

My personal favourite is Panasonic. Loads of power and endurance.

Having said all of that one of our fitters bought a spurious Makita
24v from a rogue trader. Its a big hulking brute of a thing but I
picked it up recently to run a Hettich hinge sinker jig and it made
short work of drilling the 35mm hole despite a bluntish bit.

Who knows how long it will last.

All this talk about cordless drills and no-one is mentioning the
ergonomics of the things. The weight, balance, feel of a drill etc.
are all important if it is going to be used regularly. IMHO of all of
the above the Panasonic wins on all counts. The Bosch are a bit tipsy
if set down up-right on their battery and inserting the batteries into
tyem can be a bit finicky. The Makitas we use are the older type with
the long thin battery. These work well when held in a choke grip
around the back of the head rather than by the handle but that doesn't
always suit.

Yonks ago I had a little Black and Decker 9.6v driver. It was a
delight to use for driving screws being so small and light.
Unfortunately the batteries were rubbish.


Paul Mc Cann

In message , IMM
writes

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
Probably not. Generally, Makita spares for the typical consumables
are not that expensive and repair oneself is easy enough. I think
that £20-30 worth of spares for a £150 tool is worthwhile. In
practice, though, with Makita stuff the longevity and robustness is
such that repair is not a big issue anyway.

It is a big issue when used for what it is intended; heavy every day
professional use. When for DIY they should last, but the price then become
unacceptable for light use.

I have had 2 sets of makita 9.6v drill drivers. Under constant (6 days a
week) hard work they have both lasted ten years (strangely the ni-cads
that came with them lasted 7).

Only repair was a slow start switch; 17 quid and easy to fit on the
older drill.



From my own experience, there's no
contest and I think that the Makita products are worth the extra
money. Go and try them out.

If a Makita is slightly more expensive then it is worth going for. If it
is
twice the price for a semi-pro/DIY use, then it is worth assessing other
models.

I have just bought an 18v makita combi and I'm delighted with the
quality of the thing.

All our equipment is makita and I think they're bullet proof. The only
exception is a 20 year old bosch jigsaw (remember them?), an argos
breaker that we bought to see if we could kill it (not yet; but it's
still pretty new) and a I've just been talked into buying a De-walt 650w
(?) sds drill/breaker which is about to get very seriously used on one
particular job. I'll keep you posted. It's makita peer has already
passed the test and still lives

--
mark

"MrCheerful" wrote in message
...

"Phil" wrote in message
m...
Cordless drill upgrsde time. Have been using argos specials but after
a whole bathroom refit the trigger is gone (Still not bad for 15 quid)

The front runners are
Screwfix 9.6 v Makita
B n Q 12 volt RYOBI

Both £75.00, Both 1 hour 2 batterys
Which?

Ryobi seems to be B n Q only (cannot find it on net anywhere else)
Ryobi has 2 year warranty MAK has 1
Ryobi has built in spirit levels which look kind of fun BUT do they
actually work.
Also MAKTEC is turning up on EBAY quite a lot.

http://tinyurl.com/3ds4z

What is this (ignoring the puff which states that they have the same
quality) Is this worth considering?
MAKITAs website is curiously quiet about this.
Basically is a 75 quid MAK better than a 75 quid 12 V RYOBI?

Usage Advanced DIY + occasional trunking job CAT5

Cheers Phil

Costco sell Ryobi.
Both makes are good, but Makita has the edge.

MrCheerful



If you only want it for reasonable (i.e. light) domestic use, look at nuTool
as sold by Makro and now as PP at B&Q or Excel at Homebase. They do a 24V
hammer drill (NPT24C) in a case with fast charger and two batteries for ?? -
might have been 39.95. If you want a proper drill as against a glorified
electric screwdriver they do a 30V hammer drill although their web site only
shows it in 21.6V form - I think it is probably the best drill I have,
certainly beats a Bosch mains hammer drill into brick!

www.nutool.co.uk

If you are near Doncaster their UK base is on the new industrial park at the
top of the A1(M) (junc A638 Wakefield road) and the have a factory outlet
there. WELL worth a visit.


--

Woody