On Wednesday, 25 September 2019 17:16:10 UTC+1, Andrew wrote:
On 25/09/2019 00:01, Fredxx wrote:
It is something they can ask for in advance of a payout.

Why would they do that, if the reason for the payout was a
chip pan fire, or hubby dropped a hammer through the
wash basin ?

because they can often refuse a payout. It's business.


NT

On Wednesday, 25 September 2019 17:21:10 UTC+1, Andrew wrote:
On 25/09/2019 11:57, Reentrant wrote:
Our recent Homebuyer Valuation didn't even mention electrics, even
though it had an ancient fuse-wire consumer unit.

That is not a survey. It merely informs the mortgage company
and would be buyer that the property actually exists.

Even if the 'surveyor' can see serious issues he won't
mention them specifically, but just add an ambiguous
phrase that the buyer might want to consider.

If you want to be told the full facts, you need a full
structural survey.

now there's optimism.


NT

On Wednesday, 25 September 2019 20:50:22 UTC+1, charles wrote:
In article ,
ARW wrote:
On 25/09/2019 20:29, charles wrote:
In article , ARW
wrote:
On 25/09/2019 19:33, charles wrote:

When I rewired our house in 9164, the electricity board tester even
checked that the screws on the sockets weer earthed!


Would that have been all 6 of them?

Seriously how many sockets did you fit?

yes, serious typo (1964)

around two dozen sockets - all doubles as I recall. But we left that
house in 1977, so I can't be accurate


Much better than the house I referred to. A new build (1972) which was a
3 bed detached had 2 x 1 g sockets in each bedroom, the lounge, the
dining room and a 1g socket on the landing and in the hallway. No idea
what the kitchen had as that was the only room with some alterations.

when we moved in, there were 4 x 15A sockets - one in each bedroom and 1 in
the kitchen (a 1946 install)

2 pole fused presumably. Such setups were sometimes joined up to make 2 ring circuits, each run on 4x 15A fuses.


NT

In article , David
writes
On Tue, 24 Sep 2019 20:49:14 +0000, David wrote:

I'm just reading a survey report which includes the wording

"As this is a change of ownership, it is essential that the electrical
wiring is checked by an electrician, preferably NICEIC registered, in
order to outline any remedial works necessary to achieve compliance with
the up to date regulations."

Is there any regulation which says that on change of ownership the
wiring should be brought up to current regulations?

This seems to be what the wording implies.

As far as I know the surveyor can recommend updating, but there is no
absolute requirement.

Also. the boiler is an old floor standing one.
The wording states:

"The boiler is not a room sealed appliance and consequently is potentially
dangerous.
This is not a condition report
I would not advise that the boiler is used until it has been
inspected (condition rating 3 and see section J3 Risks)."

Thank you for you non advice. If it hasn't been inspected how can you
rate it?
This seems a bit extreme.
Standard butt covering or a real risk?

The former.
Cheers



Dave R


--
bert

In article , David
writes
On Tue, 24 Sep 2019 22:29:00 +0100, Fredxx wrote:

On 24/09/2019 22:23, David wrote:
On Tue, 24 Sep 2019 21:12:05 +0000, David wrote:

On Tue, 24 Sep 2019 20:49:14 +0000, David wrote:

I'm just reading a survey report which includes the wording

"As this is a change of ownership, it is essential that the
electrical wiring is checked by an electrician, preferably NICEIC
registered, in order to outline any remedial works necessary to
achieve compliance with the up to date regulations."

Is there any regulation which says that on change of ownership the
wiring should be brought up to current regulations?

This seems to be what the wording implies.

As far as I know the surveyor can recommend updating, but there is no
absolute requirement.

Also. the boiler is an old floor standing one.
The wording states:

"The boiler is not a room sealed appliance and consequently is
potentially dangerous. I would not advise that the boiler is used
until it has been inspected (condition rating 3 and see section J3
Risks)."

This seems a bit extreme.
Standard butt covering or a real risk?

Oh, and:

"The current arrangement of the conservatory is not compliant with the
Building Regulations and will need to be altered accordingly if the
accommodation is to be classed as being compliant."

As far as I know the older bits should be "grandfathered" in, and have
no legal requirement to be brought up to current building regulations.
Insulation requirements are below current - glazed with a plastic roof
and has a radiator in so is part of the main property - which wouldn't
be allowed by current regs.

These look very much like weasel words to bump up the cost of repairs.
It doesn't actually say that you are legally required to do the work;
just implies it by "if the accommodation is to be classed as
compliant". Which as far as I can see there is no legal requirement
unless you undertake major structural work and have to bring the rest
of the property up to current regs.

I may be reading too much into this, of course.

The survey is commissioned by the buyers, the surveyor is using words
for them, so provide some bargaining power.

If they have agreed a a price then personally I would likely not budge
on price and put it back on the market if they're not going to commit.

Remember they have paid for the survey and probably don't want to shell
out for another survey on another house with potentially the same
result.

It's your call, of course.

This is an equitable rather than contentious negotiation.

We are trying to work out which items are genuinely a problem, and which
are just the surveyor trying to bet the price down for their client.

Which is why I am asking to confirm which phrases are flannel and which
reflect real legislation.

Most houses on resale will not comply with current building regulations.

Houses built before 1900 probably don't comply with any!


Cheers



Dave r



Building regs electrical regs gas regs to the best of my knowledge are
never retrospective. But it is a while since I bought/sold a house.
--
bert

In article , Chris Green
writes
Andrew wrote:

There are some free-standing fan flued boilers that pressurise
the casing. Great care must be taken with these (if any still
exist). A couple of BG engineers weere jailed for manslaughter
when they serviced one of these and didn't refit the casing
correctly, killing the occupants.

I'm not surprised if they were living in a boiler.

ROTFL
--
bert

In article ,
wrote:
On Wednesday, 25 September 2019 20:50:22 UTC+1, charles wrote:
In article , ARW
wrote:
On 25/09/2019 20:29, charles wrote:
In article , ARW
wrote:
On 25/09/2019 19:33, charles wrote:

When I rewired our house in 1964, the electricity board tester
even checked that the screws on the sockets weer earthed!


Would that have been all 6 of them?

Seriously how many sockets did you fit?

yes, serious typo (1964)

around two dozen sockets - all doubles as I recall. But we left
that house in 1977, so I can't be accurate


Much better than the house I referred to. A new build (1972) which
was a 3 bed detached had 2 x 1 g sockets in each bedroom, the
lounge, the dining room and a 1g socket on the landing and in the
hallway. No idea what the kitchen had as that was the only room with
some alterations.

when we moved in, there were 4 x 15A sockets - one in each bedroom and
1 in the kitchen (a 1946 install)

2 pole fused presumably. Such setups were sometimes joined up to make 2
ring circuits, each run on 4x 15A fuses.

I suspect there were fuses on the neutal, too. Certainly no ring. Oh and
theer were a couple of 5A sockets off the lighting fuses for downstairs.


NT

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

On Wednesday, 25 September 2019 22:10:13 UTC+1, bert wrote:

Building regs electrical regs gas regs to the best of my knowledge are
never retrospective. But it is a while since I bought/sold a house.

It's not that cut & dry. If you keep your 1st edition wiring regs compliant installation & it kills someone, as it may well, you'll be looking at jail time.


NT

On Wednesday, 25 September 2019 22:30:59 UTC+1, charles wrote:
In article ,
tabbypurr wrote:
On Wednesday, 25 September 2019 20:50:22 UTC+1, charles wrote:

when we moved in, there were 4 x 15A sockets - one in each bedroom and
1 in the kitchen (a 1946 install)

2 pole fused presumably. Such setups were sometimes joined up to make 2
ring circuits, each run on 4x 15A fuses.

I suspect there were fuses on the neutal, too.

ie 2 pole fused

Certainly no ring.

Part of the thinking behind the design of he ring circuits we use now was that 2 old 15A radials could be joined by a new bit of cable, now operating as a 30A ring, and unlimited 13A sockets be added. The resulting ring of course then ran off no less than 4 fuses! But it worked.


Oh and
theer were a couple of 5A sockets off the lighting fuses for downstairs.

those are still permitted & increasingly popular. Now they're used for lighting.


NT

On 25/09/2019 17:15, Andrew wrote:
On 25/09/2019 00:01, Fredxx wrote:
It is something they can ask for in advance of a payout.

Why would they do that, if the reason for the payout was a
chip pan fire, or hubby dropped a hammer through the
wash basin ?

In the event of needing a payout, how could the insurance company even
show that there ever was a surveyor's report?

SteveW

On 25/09/2019 23:09, wrote:
On Wednesday, 25 September 2019 22:30:59 UTC+1, charles wrote:
In article ,
tabbypurr wrote:
On Wednesday, 25 September 2019 20:50:22 UTC+1, charles wrote:

when we moved in, there were 4 x 15A sockets - one in each bedroom and
1 in the kitchen (a 1946 install)

2 pole fused presumably. Such setups were sometimes joined up to make 2
ring circuits, each run on 4x 15A fuses.

I suspect there were fuses on the neutal, too.

ie 2 pole fused

Certainly no ring.

Part of the thinking behind the design of he ring circuits we use now was that 2 old 15A radials could be joined by a new bit of cable, now operating as a 30A ring, and unlimited 13A sockets be added. The resulting ring of course then ran off no less than 4 fuses! But it worked.


Oh and
theer were a couple of 5A sockets off the lighting fuses for downstairs.

those are still permitted & increasingly popular. Now they're used for lighting.

Yes, I fitted four in the conservatory - one three gang switch operates
the ceiling lights, wall lights and 5A sockets. Of the four sockets,
only one is normally used (for a table lamp), but as Christmas
approaches, another is used for Christmas tree lights and the other two
for a lit wreath and a string of lights. One switch for all four sockets
is very useful, allowing switching off from the doorway, before closing
tha patio door for the night.

SteveW

On 25/09/2019 17:08, Andrew wrote:
On 24/09/2019 22:23, David wrote:
Insulation requirements are below current - glazed with a plastic roof
and
has a radiator in so is part of the main property - which wouldn't be
allowed by current regs.

If the previous owner has removed the original outer door
and/or wall so that theconservatory is part of the house
then this would not be allowed under existing Part L(2006).

If it was done after October 2006 then in theory you could
get the remedial work done and then go back and sue the
people who owned the building at that time.

There is a limited liability time on building regs violations. So the
LABC can't chase historic cases, unless they represent an immediate
danger. I don't much fancy your chances recouping the cost of historic
substandard work years after the fact.

Attempting to heat a conservatory is futile. You could
spend more money heating that one room than the rest
of the house.

Not necessarily. You may only need it heated for short periods of time.
Things like IR radiant heating (i.e. heat the people, not the building)
can make such spaces comfortable when required.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 25/09/2019 17:20, Andrew wrote:
On 25/09/2019 11:57, Reentrant wrote:
Our recent Homebuyer Valuation didn't even mention electrics, even
though it had an ancient fuse-wire consumer unit.

That is not a survey. It merely informs the mortgage company
and would be buyer that the property actually exists.

Even if the 'surveyor' can see serious issues he won't
mention them specifically, but just add an ambiguous
phrase that the buyer might want to consider.

If you want to be told the full facts, you need a full
structural survey.

Having had a long discussion with our surveyor last time, I did not find
that to be the case... The full structural surveys are frequently way
over the top unless there is a particular concern about some element of
structure - and then you normally need to decide what you are having
tested and why. The "home buyer's report" style give (a bit) more detail
than your normal valuation survey - but the are usually very limited in
scope and only suitable for fairly "standard" property types, and
normally allow for only short comments on problems. The surveyors doing
valuation surveys often have quite a bit more scope to tailor the survey
to your actual needs than say going for the HBR.

So when getting ours done last time we moved I actually found the basic
valuation survey with some extra instructions was the most flexible.
(which was basically were "concentrate on anything that looks like it
could be a serious issue, and ignore anything plumbing or wiring related
as I can assess that myself!")

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 25/09/2019 23:16, Steve Walker wrote:
On 25/09/2019 17:15, Andrew wrote:
On 25/09/2019 00:01, Fredxx wrote:
It is something they can ask for in advance of a payout.

Why would they do that, if the reason for the payout was a
chip pan fire, or hubby dropped a hammer through the
wash basin ?

In the event of needing a payout, how could the insurance company even
show that there ever was a surveyor's report?

By asking the question, "did you have a survey"? If the house is
mortgage it's a near certainty.

Or do you still get drive by valuations?

On 25/09/19 23:35, John Rumm wrote:
On 25/09/2019 17:08, Andrew wrote:


Attempting to heat a conservatory is futile. You could
spend more money heating that one room than the rest
of the house.

Not necessarily. You may only need it heated for short periods of time.
Things like IR radiant heating (i.e. heat the people, not the building)
can make such spaces comfortable when required.

Well, we had underfloor heating (electric film - 1.8kW) installed in our
conservatory. Big, expensive mistake. If any form of heating is
unsuitable for a conservatory, it is underfloor heating. As it happens,
we use our conservatory mainly for growing plants (we do sit in it in
spring and autumn, and cooler days in summer. At other times it confirms
the definition that "a conservatory is a room which is too cold in
winter and too hot in summer"!).

The underfloor heating is set to come on at 10°C in winter. Other
"heating" is supplied by a 400W dehumidifier, as we find that
condensation from the plants is a real issue. The dehumidifier has a
major effect on discouraging black mould. If really cold weather is
expected (below -5°C), then a 1kW thermostatically controlled fan heater
is used to keep the temperature above 8°C, as the underfloor heating
cannot cope, especially if it is windy.

--

Jeff

BS surveys are usually only concerned with the valuation and on new builds can often be no more than a "drive by". On older properties the extent of the survey depends on age, size of mortgage and general state. Our last house a 1957 semi a mortgage condition was the standard have the wiring checked and it was pretty obvious why they wanted that. However, it was not a case of having a portion of the mortgage witheld as can sometimes be the case. I in fact was able to get an addition to the mortgage as the heating and plumbing was dire and we wanted to have all the disruption in one go.

It might seem perverse that BSs do not seem too concerned about the state of some property but they do cover their arses by making building insurance mandatory as part of the mortgage offer which kind of knocks the ball into the insurers court. The bottom line can the BS get its money back should they need to reposes?

Richard

In article ,
ARW wrote:
Some years ago a friend of mine needed a satisfactory EICR to obtain a
mortgage. I went and did the test. Not one socket in the house was
earthed plus a few other problems. This was a 1972 build.

Do you mean the earths weren't connected at all - or a fault between CU
and true ground?

--
*24 hours in a day ... 24 beers in a case ... coincidence? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 26/09/2019 15:12, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
ARW wrote:
Some years ago a friend of mine needed a satisfactory EICR to obtain a
mortgage. I went and did the test. Not one socket in the house was
earthed plus a few other problems. This was a 1972 build.

Do you mean the earths weren't connected at all - or a fault between CU
and true ground?


A fault. This was a 4mm 30A radial. It was quite obvious (we gutted the
place) that when the kitchen was fitted a screw had gone straight
through the T&E. The burn marks on the cable suggest that the fuse
probably blew. This destroyed the cpc before the first socket in the house.

I would guess that the fuse was replaced and that as the sockets then
worked nothing else was said about it.

--
Adam

On 26/09/2019 18:24, ARW wrote:
On 26/09/2019 15:12, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Â*Â*Â* ARW wrote:
Some years ago a friend of mine needed a satisfactory EICR to obtain a
mortgage. I went and did the test. Not one socket in the house was
earthed plus a few other problems. This was a 1972 build.

Do you mean the earths weren't connected at all - or a fault between CU
and true ground?


A fault. This was a 4mm 30A radial. It was quite obvious (we gutted the
place) that when the kitchen was fitted a screw had gone straight
through the T&E. The burn marks on the cable suggest that the fuse
probably blew. This destroyed the cpc before the first socket in the house.

I would guess that the fuse was replaced and that as the sockets then
worked nothing else was said about it.


Sounds like my house. Previous occupants drilled through the 30
amp cooker cable while fitting a new kitchen. The blanking plate above
the wired fuses had two large crescent-shaped melted out burn marks
above the two 30 amp fuses for cooker and ring main (one for whole
house).

I also found many sockets with no earth because the same people removed
the fancy brass sockets before moving out but snapped the 1mm cpc
behind two non-adjacent sockets when putting the original 1976 contract
jobbies back.

Many years later I discovered that the first owners had hammered a
kitchen wall fixing through the ring main, explaining the other
melted burn mark in the wylex fuse box.

On Tue, 24 Sep 2019 21:12:05 +0000, David wrote:

On Tue, 24 Sep 2019 20:49:14 +0000, David wrote:

I'm just reading a survey report which includes the wording

"As this is a change of ownership, it is essential that the electrical
wiring is checked by an electrician, preferably NICEIC registered, in
order to outline any remedial works necessary to achieve compliance
with the up to date regulations."

Is there any regulation which says that on change of ownership the
wiring should be brought up to current regulations?

This seems to be what the wording implies.

As far as I know the surveyor can recommend updating, but there is no
absolute requirement.

Also. the boiler is an old floor standing one.
The wording states:

"The boiler is not a room sealed appliance and consequently is
potentially dangerous. I would not advise that the boiler is used until
it has been inspected (condition rating 3 and see section J3 Risks)."

This seems a bit extreme.
Standard butt covering or a real risk?

Further information.

The boiler is old (similar to the one in the property we moved into in
1984) so no fancy pressurised bits, nor room sealing.

I am assuming those large "lift off" burners like an industrial oven which
are cleaned by lifting out and wire brushing then vacuuming or blasting
with air. However I didn't look.

The boiler is inside a large airing cupboard with a closing door and there
is ventilation through the suspended floor.

So potentially less risk than if it was free standing in e.g. the kitchen.

Safety check is sensible, but the boiler needs to be running for frost
protection.

Cheers


Dave R

--
AMD FX-6300 in GA-990X-Gaming SLI-CF running Windows 7 Pro x64

---
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On Tue, 24 Sep 2019 21:23:45 +0000, David wrote:

On Tue, 24 Sep 2019 21:12:05 +0000, David wrote:

On Tue, 24 Sep 2019 20:49:14 +0000, David wrote:

I'm just reading a survey report which includes the wording

"As this is a change of ownership, it is essential that the electrical
wiring is checked by an electrician, preferably NICEIC registered, in
order to outline any remedial works necessary to achieve compliance
with the up to date regulations."

Is there any regulation which says that on change of ownership the
wiring should be brought up to current regulations?

This seems to be what the wording implies.

As far as I know the surveyor can recommend updating, but there is no
absolute requirement.

Also. the boiler is an old floor standing one.
The wording states:

"The boiler is not a room sealed appliance and consequently is
potentially dangerous. I would not advise that the boiler is used until
it has been inspected (condition rating 3 and see section J3 Risks)."

This seems a bit extreme.
Standard butt covering or a real risk?

Oh, and:

"The current arrangement of the conservatory is not compliant with the
Building Regulations and will need to be altered accordingly if the
accommodation is to be classed as being compliant."

As far as I know the older bits should be "grandfathered" in, and have
no legal requirement to be brought up to current building regulations.
Insulation requirements are below current - glazed with a plastic roof
and has a radiator in so is part of the main property - which wouldn't
be allowed by current regs.

These look very much like weasel words to bump up the cost of repairs.
It doesn't actually say that you are legally required to do the work;
just implies it by "if the accommodation is to be classed as compliant".
Which as far as I can see there is no legal requirement unless you
undertake major structural work and have to bring the rest of the
property up to current regs.

I may be reading too much into this, of course.

Further information.

The "conservatory" isn't a large separate area where you would grow plants
in the summer and not heat in the winter.
It is a small extension to the dining room with walls to knee height,
double glazing to ceiling height, and a sloping roof with double or triple
layer plastic glazing.
Integral with the dining room and with a radiator.

It wouldn't come up to current standards for insulation primarily because
of the roof but the additional heat loss doesn't seem that large.

I wouldn't even describe it as a "conservatory" because it is just a
dining room extension with a glazed roof and windows all round. Oh, and an
external door.

Cheers


Dave R

--
AMD FX-6300 in GA-990X-Gaming SLI-CF running Windows 7 Pro x64

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On Sunday, 29 September 2019 16:22:34 UTC+1, David WE Roberts (Google) wrote:

Further information.

The boiler is old (similar to the one in the property we moved into in
1984) so no fancy pressurised bits, nor room sealing.

I am assuming those large "lift off" burners like an industrial oven which
are cleaned by lifting out and wire brushing then vacuuming or blasting
with air. However I didn't look.

The boiler is inside a large airing cupboard with a closing door and there
is ventilation through the suspended floor.

So potentially less risk than if it was free standing in e.g. the kitchen.

Safety check is sensible, but the boiler needs to be running for frost
protection.

Cheers


Dave R

it doesn't change anything, either you test it or cross your fingers.