On Mon, 19 Aug 2019 19:54:42 +1000, "Rod Speed"
wrote:

snip


Did Samsung make a 1TB 2.5" pre 2011 (when Seagate took that product
line over), if I was looking for NOS? ;-)

Seagate only bought the 3.5" line, not the 2.5" line.

And did Samsung carry on making 2.5" spinney drives?

I wonder if it's more likely I could find a (or 3) 1TB external USB
2.5" drive that still uses a std drive and interface as they can often
be found cheaper than a bare drive and I can use the enclosure for
smaller drives (or the old Samsungs as backup / portable drives).

Dunno, I don't bother with 2.5" drives, I buy the 3.5" drives and 8TB drives
most recently.

A mate used to buy the sweetest price point 2.5" drives for his
desktops and would retire them to his laptops when bigger capacities
came down in price. That may have changed with a change in usage
(cloud storage etc) and the advent of SSD's that seem to have a better
performance impact in laptops.

Cheers, T i m

On Mon, 19 Aug 2019 11:52:12 +0100, Pancho
wrote:

On 18/08/2019 13:57, T i m wrote:

USB drives are faster
than a gigabit lan, so no need to worry about the lack of SATA.

Even USB2?


No, but the Pi 4 has USB 3.

True but I was thinking more the drive (bay) itself if only USB2.

I use this USB 3 Its only £5.99.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B01N2JIQR7/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Yeah, I have them and those with the additional power connector to
support desktop drives but I was talking of those external drives I
have already got that were only USB2.

I also have the 'dock' type, handy for holding the drive safely.

When most things only had USB2, there wasn't any point buying USB3
drives / enclosures as initially they were quite a bit more expensive.

Cheers, T i m

On Monday, 19 August 2019 10:54:55 UTC+1, Rod Speed wrote:
"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 19 Aug 2019 10:54:43 +1000, "Rod Speed"
wrote:
snip

By that I mean like many things there isn't really any way you can
sure that version E of something *will* inherit the good
characteristics of version D or that it's baby brother is even the
result of the same parents!

That's specially true of Seagate that bought the Samsung 3.5"
HDD line relatively recently and has a tradition of continuing the
operations they bought and just rebranding what they produce.

And I'm not sure if you could ever tell what was actually under the
label? I have bought some White Label RAM where it's just that, a
label over some branded product but I think it might be easier to
're-brand' a HDD as you could overwrite the firmware than some RAM
when you probably can't.

snip

It's like the drives in my old WHS are probably 10+ years old now (I
thought they were Hitachi but WHS device manager tells me they are
500GB Samsung HM501II's):

https://www.hdsentinel.com/storagein...NG%20HM 501II

So I'd love to replace them with 3 x 1TB Samsung drives of the same
build / design as the existing but what are the chances of finding
such a thing?

I do in fact have quite a few of them myself. None have ever failed.

I think when I built the server I considered what make of drive I'd
never / rarely seen faulty and also looked at the drives the local PC
shop was often replacing ... and hence why I chose the Samsungs.

Years ago I can remember seeing (and having) several dead Maxtor
drives but that could have been party down to them being cheaper than
most at the time and so appearing in greater quantities.

So I need to hope that Seagate carried on making the Samsung drives
the same way Samsung did but just stuck their badge on, if I'm looking
for a 1TB Sammy spinner. If so then I can get 3 x 1TB Seagate
spinners for the price of 1 SSD.

Did Samsung make a 1TB 2.5" pre 2011 (when Seagate took that product
line over), if I was looking for NOS? ;-)

Seagate only bought the 3.5" line, not the 2.5" line.

I wonder if it's more likely I could find a (or 3) 1TB external USB
2.5" drive that still uses a std drive and interface as they can often
be found cheaper than a bare drive and I can use the enclosure for
smaller drives (or the old Samsungs as backup / portable drives).

Dunno, I don't bother with 2.5" drives, I buy the 3.5" drives and 8TB drives
most recently.

What do you actually need to back up ?

I'm suprised by the number of people that place such high importance on their backups or even on the original files they backup.
Some if it;s their job to backup data I can understadn but the average home users, sure I back up pictures of my cat and gig's I go to but I can't think of anything that would be seriously life changing.

On 19/08/2019 13:43, whisky-dave wrote:
On Monday, 19 August 2019 10:54:55 UTC+1, Rod Speed wrote:
"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 19 Aug 2019 10:54:43 +1000, "Rod Speed"
wrote:
snip

By that I mean like many things there isn't really any way you can
sure that version E of something *will* inherit the good
characteristics of version D or that it's baby brother is even the
result of the same parents!

That's specially true of Seagate that bought the Samsung 3.5"
HDD line relatively recently and has a tradition of continuing the
operations they bought and just rebranding what they produce.

And I'm not sure if you could ever tell what was actually under the
label? I have bought some White Label RAM where it's just that, a
label over some branded product but I think it might be easier to
're-brand' a HDD as you could overwrite the firmware than some RAM
when you probably can't.

snip

It's like the drives in my old WHS are probably 10+ years old now (I
thought they were Hitachi but WHS device manager tells me they are
500GB Samsung HM501II's):

https://www.hdsentinel.com/storagein...NG%20HM 501II

So I'd love to replace them with 3 x 1TB Samsung drives of the same
build / design as the existing but what are the chances of finding
such a thing?

I do in fact have quite a few of them myself. None have ever failed.

I think when I built the server I considered what make of drive I'd
never / rarely seen faulty and also looked at the drives the local PC
shop was often replacing ... and hence why I chose the Samsungs.

Years ago I can remember seeing (and having) several dead Maxtor
drives but that could have been party down to them being cheaper than
most at the time and so appearing in greater quantities.

So I need to hope that Seagate carried on making the Samsung drives
the same way Samsung did but just stuck their badge on, if I'm looking
for a 1TB Sammy spinner. If so then I can get 3 x 1TB Seagate
spinners for the price of 1 SSD.

Did Samsung make a 1TB 2.5" pre 2011 (when Seagate took that product
line over), if I was looking for NOS? ;-)

Seagate only bought the 3.5" line, not the 2.5" line.

I wonder if it's more likely I could find a (or 3) 1TB external USB
2.5" drive that still uses a std drive and interface as they can often
be found cheaper than a bare drive and I can use the enclosure for
smaller drives (or the old Samsungs as backup / portable drives).

Dunno, I don't bother with 2.5" drives, I buy the 3.5" drives and 8TB drives
most recently.

What do you actually need to back up ?

I have converted to paperless and scan all my documents. For me 30 years
company records, photos, documents, plus convenient current application
data is about 30 gig total. 10 GB critical/ 20 GB convenient. Much of
the critical stuff is static data that doesn't change year on year.

The 20 GB convenient includes all the crap Google and Microsoft write to
my Appdata folders, it is just too much effort to seperate it out.

It surprises me that so many people go for raid when even if you have
raid you still need to backup onto different physically seperate data
stores.

Most of the stuff on my NAS is just for convenience. Critical stuff I
sync between local drives on a number of my machines.

On Monday, 19 August 2019 15:22:10 UTC+1, Pancho wrote:
On 19/08/2019 13:43, whisky-dave wrote:

What do you actually need to back up ?

I have converted to paperless and scan all my documents.

If you have to scan in then yuo haven't really converted to paperless.
My telephone bill etc is paperless I don't have to scan anything in and if I did get my bill and reciept I don;t think I'd scan them all in.



For me 30 years
company records, photos, documents, plus convenient current application
data is about 30 gig total. 10 GB critical/ 20 GB convenient. Much of
the critical stuff is static data that doesn't change year on year.

So
no real reason to back it up everyday.

The 20 GB convenient includes all the crap Google and Microsoft write to
my Appdata folders, it is just too much effort to seperate it out.

What makes you think that crap needs backing up ?
At home although my apps have been backed up, I don't really need to back them up as later versions are free on the app store (Apple).

I do have dozens of CD/DVD even floppies with backed up staff but I;m not sure that I'd miss Wrod 5.1 or excel 4 in the futer so don't really see the need to reback them up everyday/week/year.
If they went missing tomorrow I doubt they'd give me even a mins sleepless night, and that goes for the majority of what I have backedup.

Obviously work is differnt. Saw a programme on TV where a document in a filing cabnet proved something about a car in the 1970s.



It surprises me that so many people go for raid when even if you have
raid you still need to backup onto different physically seperate data
stores.

True, personally I see little use in RAID in todays world for teh majority.



Most of the stuff on my NAS is just for convenience. Critical stuff I
sync between local drives on a number of my machines.

I guess it depends just how critical, I mean if I lost my first picture I took of my latest cat with my new camera, just how many sleepless nights I'd have ?
A picture which is still on my desktop, and stored in googlemail and probbably archived on 3 or so 3TB drives.
What I really need is a sock backup draw, I lose far more of those than I do files. :-)

"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Monday, 19 August 2019 10:54:55 UTC+1, Rod Speed wrote:
"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 19 Aug 2019 10:54:43 +1000, "Rod Speed"
wrote:
snip

By that I mean like many things there isn't really any way you can
sure that version E of something *will* inherit the good
characteristics of version D or that it's baby brother is even the
result of the same parents!

That's specially true of Seagate that bought the Samsung 3.5"
HDD line relatively recently and has a tradition of continuing the
operations they bought and just rebranding what they produce.

And I'm not sure if you could ever tell what was actually under the
label? I have bought some White Label RAM where it's just that, a
label over some branded product but I think it might be easier to
're-brand' a HDD as you could overwrite the firmware than some RAM
when you probably can't.

snip

It's like the drives in my old WHS are probably 10+ years old now (I
thought they were Hitachi but WHS device manager tells me they are
500GB Samsung HM501II's):

https://www.hdsentinel.com/storagein...NG%20HM 501II

So I'd love to replace them with 3 x 1TB Samsung drives of the same
build / design as the existing but what are the chances of finding
such a thing?

I do in fact have quite a few of them myself. None have ever failed.

I think when I built the server I considered what make of drive I'd
never / rarely seen faulty and also looked at the drives the local PC
shop was often replacing ... and hence why I chose the Samsungs.

Years ago I can remember seeing (and having) several dead Maxtor
drives but that could have been party down to them being cheaper than
most at the time and so appearing in greater quantities.

So I need to hope that Seagate carried on making the Samsung drives
the same way Samsung did but just stuck their badge on, if I'm looking
for a 1TB Sammy spinner. If so then I can get 3 x 1TB Seagate
spinners for the price of 1 SSD.

Did Samsung make a 1TB 2.5" pre 2011 (when Seagate took that product
line over), if I was looking for NOS? ;-)

Seagate only bought the 3.5" line, not the 2.5" line.

I wonder if it's more likely I could find a (or 3) 1TB external USB
2.5" drive that still uses a std drive and interface as they can often
be found cheaper than a bare drive and I can use the enclosure for
smaller drives (or the old Samsungs as backup / portable drives).

Dunno, I don't bother with 2.5" drives, I buy the 3.5" drives and 8TB
drives
most recently.

What do you actually need to back up ?

Its not for backup, thats the stuff recorded on the PVR that I havent got
around to watching. We do go thru our summer with less stuff worth
watching being broadcast than I want to watch so can watch stuff that
I hadn't got around to watching previously at that time.

I should really got thru the older stuff that I have never got around
to watching and likely never will watch, but those 8TB drives are so
****ing cheap that its not worth my time to save so little money.

I'm suprised by the number of people that place such high importance
on their backups or even on the original files they backup.

I dont actually backup the recorded TV programs.

Some if it;s their job to backup data I can understadn but the average
home users, sure I back up pictures of my cat and gig's I go to but I
can't think of anything that would be seriously life changing.

I do take photos of what bits go with what device when I buy
something but that about all that would be a nuisance if I lost.
Dont use those photos much tho so not the end of the world
if I lost them.

"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 19 Aug 2019 19:54:42 +1000, "Rod Speed"
wrote:

snip


Did Samsung make a 1TB 2.5" pre 2011 (when Seagate took that product
line over), if I was looking for NOS? ;-)

Seagate only bought the 3.5" line, not the 2.5" line.

And did Samsung carry on making 2.5" spinney drives?

Yes they did.

I wonder if it's more likely I could find a (or 3) 1TB external USB
2.5" drive that still uses a std drive and interface as they can often
be found cheaper than a bare drive and I can use the enclosure for
smaller drives (or the old Samsungs as backup / portable drives).

Dunno, I don't bother with 2.5" drives, I buy the 3.5" drives and 8TB
drives
most recently.

A mate used to buy the sweetest price point 2.5" drives for his
desktops and would retire them to his laptops when bigger capacities
came down in price. That may have changed with a change in usage
(cloud storage etc) and the advent of SSD's that seem to have a better
performance impact in laptops.

I don't bother with SSDs because my system runs 24/7 and I only reboot
when I have to and it isnt work paying anything for a quicker reboot.

On Tue, 20 Aug 2019 06:09:13 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:



I don't bother with SSDs because my system runs 24/7 and I only reboot
when I have to and it isnt work paying anything for a quicker reboot.

Good idea actually, considering that you get up every night between 1 and 4
am anyway, just after a few hours in bed, you clinically insane trolling
piece of senile ****! VBG

--
"Anonymous" to trolling senile Rot Speed:
"You can **** off as you know less than pig **** you sad
little ignorant ****."
MID:

On Tue, 20 Aug 2019 05:28:01 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH another 92 lines of the usual troll****

....and nothing's left, as usual!

--
Website (from 2007) dedicated to the 85-year-old trolling senile
cretin from Oz:
https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/r...d-faq.2973853/

On Tue, 20 Aug 2019 06:09:13 +1000, "Rod Speed"
wrote:

snip

A mate used to buy the sweetest price point 2.5" drives for his
desktops and would retire them to his laptops when bigger capacities
came down in price. That may have changed with a change in usage
(cloud storage etc) and the advent of SSD's that seem to have a better
performance impact in laptops.

I don't bother with SSDs because my system runs 24/7 and I only reboot
when I have to and it isnt work paying anything for a quicker reboot.

But whilst SSD's do often help reduce boot speeds, it's not all about
that in every case. Like, I understand they draw less power, generate
less heat, they are and will remain silent for their entire life
spans and many offer a longer warrantee than most spinny drives.

It's possible you would get a longer warrantee (5 years) than a spinny
drive designed for the role of NAS drive (WD Red 3 years).

Given that a 2.5" SSD is now only a few quid more than a Red drive ...
shrug

Cheers, T i m

T i m wrote
Rod Speed wrote

A mate used to buy the sweetest price point 2.5" drives for his
desktops and would retire them to his laptops when bigger
capacities came down in price. That may have changed with
a change in usage (cloud storage etc) and the advent of SSD's
that seem to have a better performance impact in laptops.

I don't bother with SSDs because my system runs 24/7 and I only reboot
when I have to and it isnt work paying anything for a quicker reboot.

But whilst SSD's do often help reduce boot speeds, it's not all about
that in every case. Like, I understand they draw less power,

Not something that matters with a desktop system.

generate less heat,

Ditto. I don't even bother to have the covers on mine.

they are and will remain silent for their entire life spans

Mine stay entirely silent.

and many offer a longer warrantee than most spinny drives.

I choose the long warranty HDDs and have never had a warranty claim.

It's possible you would get a longer warrantee (5 years) than a spinny
drive designed for the role of NAS drive (WD Red 3 years).

But pointless spending money to get that.

Given that a 2.5" SSD is now only a few quid more than a Red drive ...

Both are much too small to be any use for me.

On Tue, 20 Aug 2019 12:37:59 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:


Not something that matters with a desktop system.

generate less heat,

Ditto. I don't even bother to have the covers on mine.

they are and will remain silent for their entire life spans

Mine stay entirely silent.

and many offer a longer warrantee than most spinny drives.

I choose the long warranty HDDs and have never had a warranty claim.

It's possible you would get a longer warrantee (5 years) than a spinny
drive designed for the role of NAS drive (WD Red 3 years).

But pointless spending money to get that.

Given that a 2.5" SSD is now only a few quid more than a Red drive ...

Both are much too small to be any use for me.

These old assholes here still don't get what's wrong with you, eh, senile
Rodent? Good for you and your senile trolling! BG

--
Website (from 2007) dedicated to the 85-year-old trolling senile
cretin from Oz:
https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/r...d-faq.2973853/

On Tue, 20 Aug 2019 12:37:59 +1000, "Rod Speed"
wrote:

T i m wrote
Rod Speed wrote

A mate used to buy the sweetest price point 2.5" drives for his
desktops and would retire them to his laptops when bigger
capacities came down in price. That may have changed with
a change in usage (cloud storage etc) and the advent of SSD's
that seem to have a better performance impact in laptops.

I don't bother with SSDs because my system runs 24/7 and I only reboot
when I have to and it isnt work paying anything for a quicker reboot.

But whilst SSD's do often help reduce boot speeds, it's not all about
that in every case. Like, I understand they draw less power,

Not something that matters with a desktop system.

I know ... but we aren't talking about desktops here (have your meds
worn off as you were just starting to sound like a normal person)?

generate less heat,

Ditto.

I know (see above).

I don't even bother to have the covers on mine.

Ok?

they are and will remain silent for their entire life spans

Mine stay entirely silent.

Except they aren't are they? The may be very quiet (now) and you may
not be able to hear them in an everyday sense but they aren't
'silent'.

and many offer a longer warrantee than most spinny drives.

I choose the long warranty HDDs and have never had a warranty claim.

Irrelevant. Do any of your spinny HDD's have a 5yr warrantee (if so,
please provide links to support that).

It's possible you would get a longer warrantee (5 years) than a spinny
drive designed for the role of NAS drive (WD Red 3 years).

But pointless spending money to get that.

For you, not for many other / normal people.

Given that a 2.5" SSD is now only a few quid more than a Red drive ...

Both are much too small to be any use for me.

But it's not all about you, is it left brainer. ;-(

Cheers, T i m

On 18 Aug 2019 14:11:27 GMT, Bob Eager wrote:

On Sun, 18 Aug 2019 14:32:28 +0100, T i m wrote:

The only thing that's ever failed is a couple of PSUs, and that wasn't
their fault. I fitted optical drives to the machines, and the power
adaptors I'd used failed catastrophically and killed the PSU.

The worst example of that I witnessed is someone using a very cheap
Molex to SATA power adapter take out a brand new and very large
(expensive) capacity HDD. 5 and 12V crossed over. ;-(

In this case they worked loose, overheated, the plastic melted and
shorted the power!

What are the chances etc. ;-(

That was the firewall system. Took less than 20 minutes to change over
(it only runs on a USB stick).

It's handy to be able to do that eh. I try to take images of my RPi
things, once they are running, I try to store them on a different
server though. ;-)

I think you can backup the config on many commercial NAS boxes (I
think I saw the option on the TeraStation, Synology and on OMV) and
that makes the replacement of the hardware easier.

It would be an interesting experiment (for me anyway g) to see if
you could transpose the system config backup file on OMV running on a
RPi on PC version. One of the things I like about OMV is that it
doesn't seem to get the admin / user involved with the hardware on any
platform. The exception is on one of the Shuttle models that didn't
seem 100% compatible with my LAN and you had to disable the autospeed
detection on the underlying Linux or it wouldn't being the link up.
;-(

Cheers, T i m

On 18 Aug 2019 14:16:40 GMT, Bob Eager wrote:

On Sun, 18 Aug 2019 14:32:28 +0100, T i m wrote:

The second failure was a WD Red, obviously something wrong because of
the quick failure. Some of my early drives are still in there, and they
are WD Blue, but most are now Red ones.

It will be interesting to hear how they fair over time.

Some are up top over 50,000 hours (the Red ones).

Any idea what the MTBF is on those drives Bob?

Sure. Do I remember correctly that some drives / controllers could
actually ensure all spindles in an array were kept in sync?

I would imagine so, as some RAID requires that (I think).

Yeah. When I was playing with it in my CNI / Netware 3.x days I think
there was a flying lead you had to join somewhere to make that happen.
Like WOL sometimes need a flying cable.

Also running one Windows machine with a mirrored pair - using the
standard Windows mirroring.

Ok. OOI, how many have ever failed in use and how well did they handle
the failure (did they just 'carry on as hoped / expected')?

Two. Carried on as they should and emailed me the details.

Excellent. ;-)

How do you back that lot up or are some backups of the others?

Some back up others (on different floors of the house). Some to DVD
(using heavy ECC, see below). Important stuff goes offsite in storage (10
miles away) and also on http://tarsnap.com

Sounds like you have most eventualities covered Bob (depending the
height above sea level of all locations and their hardness against an
EMP). ;-)

DVD ECC is via dvdisaster. I did a test; wrote a DVD with ECC then used a
Swiss Army knife to make random cuts and scrapes (took enough away that
you could see through it). It was recovered perfectly.

Wow, that sounds like the old 'Tomorrows World' demo of optical media
with jam or something. ;-)

I have a BDRW in a couple of machines and I wondered if the media was
any less reliable long term than say DVDR's? 50GB is quite a bit more
than even 9GB.

If money was no object, I would love to fill the TeraStation I was
given with (4x) WD RED 2TB (maximum size allowed) drives and have 6TB
available with a single drive fault tolerance.[1]

The only other thing is I would then need to back up 6TB ... (easy if
money was no object of course). ;-)

The 'problem' with that particular solution is that it was pulling
over 40W when running (with 4 x Seagate's, Red's might have been lower
power) and 17W when idle (and was still quite warm when sleeping).

Cheers, T i m

[1] Mate says he has another (empty) TeraStation somewhere that I
could have and I might feel happier actually using such ITRW, knowing
I had some spare hardware to fall back on once I had committed to the
drives.

On Monday, 19 August 2019 20:28:12 UTC+1, Rod Speed wrote:
"whisky-dave" wrote in message


Dunno, I don't bother with 2.5" drives, I buy the 3.5" drives and 8TB
drives
most recently.

What do you actually need to back up ?

Its not for backup, thats the stuff recorded on the PVR that I havent got
around to watching. We do go thru our summer with less stuff worth
watching being broadcast than I want to watch so can watch stuff that
I hadn't got around to watching previously at that time.

I don't find that much worth recording, and most that I do record I've seen before and when I have watched something I delete it.
Of the 4 hours on TV I watched last night I recorded 3 hours of it then watched it all last night recorded last night. Sure my tIvo is 74% full but I;ve had it 4 years or so and never run out of space I;ve plenty on there I want to watch mines a 500GB if I had 8TB I would record more crap and I might spend more time watching crap too , which is something I want to aviod.
PLus there;s plenty of catchup channels here in the UK.
I can pretty much watch any fools and horses episode I want it's reperated over and over again, as is star trek TNBG is on it's 3rd rerun this year IIRC, I don't really need to record them.


I should really got thru the older stuff that I have never got around
to watching and likely never will watch, but those 8TB drives are so
****ing cheap that its not worth my time to save so little money.

I don;t find 8TB drives ****ing cheap, they are about twice the price of 4TB
and I wouldnlt spend even half that to store stuff that'll be repeated the follwing week or somethime day, or I can get from catchup.




Some if it;s their job to backup data I can understadn but the average
home users, sure I back up pictures of my cat and gig's I go to but I
can't think of anything that would be seriously life changing.

I do take photos of what bits go with what device when I buy
something but that about all that would be a nuisance if I lost.
Dont use those photos much tho so not the end of the world
if I lost them.

I;d agree but most buy backup drives to back stuff up.

On Tuesday, 20 August 2019 03:38:11 UTC+1, Rod Speed wrote:
T i m wrote
Rod Speed wrote

A mate used to buy the sweetest price point 2.5" drives for his
desktops and would retire them to his laptops when bigger
capacities came down in price. That may have changed with
a change in usage (cloud storage etc) and the advent of SSD's
that seem to have a better performance impact in laptops.

I don't bother with SSDs because my system runs 24/7 and I only reboot
when I have to and it isnt work paying anything for a quicker reboot.

But whilst SSD's do often help reduce boot speeds, it's not all about
that in every case. Like, I understand they draw less power,

Not something that matters with a desktop system.

It can, less noise, no need for fans to keep things cool.

And more and morem people don't have desktops they have laptops or mobile devices, laptops with SSDs tend to last longer are lighter, quieter and need less cooling and use less power which makes battery life longer.


generate less heat,

Ditto. I don't even bother to have the covers on mine.

What covers ?


they are and will remain silent for their entire life spans

Mine stay entirely silent.

Can't hear them above the noise from the fans is usually the situation.


and many offer a longer warrantee than most spinny drives.

I choose the long warranty HDDs and have never had a warranty claim.

That proves nothing.


It's possible you would get a longer warrantee (5 years) than a spinny
drive designed for the role of NAS drive (WD Red 3 years).

But pointless spending money to get that.

Not for most.


Given that a 2.5" SSD is now only a few quid more than a Red drive ...

Both are much too small to be any use for me.

Makes you wonder why componies make them doesn't it, I mean if they are of no use to you what possible use could anyone else have for them ;-P

On 20/08/2019 11:35, T i m wrote:
On 18 Aug 2019 14:16:40 GMT, Bob Eager wrote:

On Sun, 18 Aug 2019 14:32:28 +0100, T i m wrote:

The second failure was a WD Red, obviously something wrong because of
the quick failure. Some of my early drives are still in there, and they
are WD Blue, but most are now Red ones.

It will be interesting to hear how they fair over time.

Some are up top over 50,000 hours (the Red ones).

Any idea what the MTBF is on those drives Bob?

Sure. Do I remember correctly that some drives / controllers could
actually ensure all spindles in an array were kept in sync?

I would imagine so, as some RAID requires that (I think).

Yeah. When I was playing with it in my CNI / Netware 3.x days I think
there was a flying lead you had to join somewhere to make that happen.
Like WOL sometimes need a flying cable.

Also running one Windows machine with a mirrored pair - using the
standard Windows mirroring.

Ok. OOI, how many have ever failed in use and how well did they handle
the failure (did they just 'carry on as hoped / expected')?

Two. Carried on as they should and emailed me the details.

Excellent. ;-)

How do you back that lot up or are some backups of the others?

Some back up others (on different floors of the house). Some to DVD
(using heavy ECC, see below). Important stuff goes offsite in storage (10
miles away) and also on http://tarsnap.com

Sounds like you have most eventualities covered Bob (depending the
height above sea level of all locations and their hardness against an
EMP). ;-)

DVD ECC is via dvdisaster. I did a test; wrote a DVD with ECC then used a
Swiss Army knife to make random cuts and scrapes (took enough away that
you could see through it). It was recovered perfectly.

Wow, that sounds like the old 'Tomorrows World' demo of optical media
with jam or something. ;-)

I have a BDRW in a couple of machines and I wondered if the media was
any less reliable long term than say DVDR's? 50GB is quite a bit more
than even 9GB.

If money was no object, I would love to fill the TeraStation I was
given with (4x) WD RED 2TB (maximum size allowed) drives and have 6TB
available with a single drive fault tolerance.[1]

The only other thing is I would then need to back up 6TB ... (easy if
money was no object of course). ;-)

The 'problem' with that particular solution is that it was pulling
over 40W when running (with 4 x Seagate's, Red's might have been lower
power) and 17W when idle (and was still quite warm when sleeping).

Cheers, T i m

[1] Mate says he has another (empty) TeraStation somewhere that I
could have and I might feel happier actually using such ITRW, knowing
I had some spare hardware to fall back on once I had committed to the
drives.




I don't run NAS drives in my synology boxes.
They don't spin continuously so I use desktop drives and they are fine.
WD green in the one.
I forget what's in the other.

I did have an early fail on one drive but they replaced it with a bigger
one under warranty without any hassle.

On Tue, 20 Aug 2019 12:26:50 +0100, "dennis@home"
wrote:
snip

The 'problem' with that particular solution is that it was pulling
over 40W when running (with 4 x Seagate's, Red's might have been lower
power) and 17W when idle (and was still quite warm when sleeping).

Cheers, T i m

[1] Mate says he has another (empty) TeraStation somewhere that I
could have and I might feel happier actually using such ITRW, knowing
I had some spare hardware to fall back on once I had committed to the
drives.


I don't run NAS drives in my synology boxes.

Interesting.

They don't spin continuously so I use desktop drives and they are fine.

How do we know if they are (or will be) as fine as specific NAS /
Server drives though? I'm not just talking warranty protection here
but the real world long term reliability of such things?

I wonder how much of the spinning thing is supposed to be 'the point'
with NAS drives though (even though I generally get drives to spin
down).

eg, The marketing blurb seems to suggest that NAS drives are (compared
with desktop drives presumably) 'low power, low noise and low heat',
as those are things that might otherwise be issues. However, I'm not
sure just how many drives fail because the man spindle bearing or
motor fails, rather than the media itself or the electronics?

So, do the drives get powered down when they spin down?

WD green in the one.

Ok.
I forget what's in the other.

Ok.

I did have an early fail on one drive but they replaced it with a bigger
one under warranty without any hassle.

Sure, you are bound to get some infant mortality with these things
(all part of the 'Bathtub' MTBF graph) so it can be more down to how
the manufacturers / suppliers then deal with that that's the issue.

In the old days (and possibly pre SMART), when one installed a HDD in
say a server you would note it's published MTBF and put it's potential
life span in your diary and be ready to replace it before that time.

With SMART and redundancy, it seems people (server farms) just wait
for them to fail and then swap them out?

How do you manage your Windows PC backups to the Synology boxes Den?
Mine should arrive tomorrow but I'd still be interested to learn what
tools to use and how?

Daughter has a Windows laptop and desktop she would like
'automatically' backed up plus possibly a central store of (copy in
many cases) photos, so she can use / access them easier?

The NAS itself would also be backed up somehow (not sure how yet).

Cheers, T i m

On Tue, 20 Aug 2019 11:35:25 +0100, T i m wrote:

Some are up top over 50,000 hours (the Red ones).

Any idea what the MTBF is on those drives Bob?

They quote (statistical estimate) 1,000,000 hours! My experience wouls
say that's not totally improbable, given the nimber of failures I've had
over time, although I think I've only ever kept one for about 60,000
hours. That is pretty well permanently powered on in my case, low number
of spinups, and kept fairly cool (either the microservers which are well
cooled, or big Corsair cases).

How do you back that lot up or are some backups of the others?

Some back up others (on different floors of the house). Some to DVD
(using heavy ECC, see below). Important stuff goes offsite in storage
(10 miles away) and also on http://tarsnap.com

Sounds like you have most eventualities covered Bob (depending the
height above sea level of all locations and their hardness against an
EMP). ;-)

We are well above the level of the building designated as the flood
relief centre. The storage unit is a lot higher! Can't do much about the
EMP; if it covers here and North Americ as well, I doubt I'll care!

DVD ECC is via dvdisaster. I did a test; wrote a DVD with ECC then used
a Swiss Army knife to make random cuts and scrapes (took enough away
that you could see through it). It was recovered perfectly.

Wow, that sounds like the old 'Tomorrows World' demo of optical media
with jam or something. ;-)

I have a BDRW in a couple of machines and I wondered if the media was
any less reliable long term than say DVDR's? 50GB is quite a bit more
than even 9GB.

I wondered that about DVD vs. CD, and they seem pretty well the same. The
only CD failures I had were very cheap media (early days) and soem
problems with discs for about 2 years 2004-2006. I have check read back
to my oldest discs with no trouble in most cases, barring those which had
systematic problems. It's clear (I keep logs of software updates) that
one version of the writer software was glitching at the same point every
time; I suspect a buffer underrun. I managed to recover it all one way
and another as the glitch was in a metadata area. For the last two years,
everything gets ECCs added.

And they ought to survive EMP too!

--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

On Tue, 20 Aug 2019 12:26:50 +0100, dennis@home wrote:

I don't run NAS drives in my synology boxes.
They don't spin continuously so I use desktop drives and they are fine.

My NAS drives don't ever spin down. They do vary in speed.

Main disk in the primary NAS has done 30,000 hours. It has spun up.down
18 times so far.

--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

On 20/08/2019 14:28, Bob Eager wrote:
On Tue, 20 Aug 2019 11:35:25 +0100, T i m wrote:

Some are up top over 50,000 hours (the Red ones).

Any idea what the MTBF is on those drives Bob?

They quote (statistical estimate) 1,000,000 hours! My experience wouls
say that's not totally improbable, given the nimber of failures I've had
over time, although I think I've only ever kept one for about 60,000
hours. That is pretty well permanently powered on in my case, low number
of spinups, and kept fairly cool (either the microservers which are well
cooled, or big Corsair cases).

How do you back that lot up or are some backups of the others?

Some back up others (on different floors of the house). Some to DVD
(using heavy ECC, see below). Important stuff goes offsite in storage
(10 miles away) and also on http://tarsnap.com

Sounds like you have most eventualities covered Bob (depending the
height above sea level of all locations and their hardness against an
EMP). ;-)

We are well above the level of the building designated as the flood
relief centre. The storage unit is a lot higher! Can't do much about the
EMP; if it covers here and North Americ as well, I doubt I'll care!

DVD ECC is via dvdisaster. I did a test; wrote a DVD with ECC then used
a Swiss Army knife to make random cuts and scrapes (took enough away
that you could see through it). It was recovered perfectly.

Wow, that sounds like the old 'Tomorrows World' demo of optical media
with jam or something. ;-)

I have a BDRW in a couple of machines and I wondered if the media was
any less reliable long term than say DVDR's? 50GB is quite a bit more
than even 9GB.

I wondered that about DVD vs. CD, and they seem pretty well the same. The
only CD failures I had were very cheap media (early days) and soem
problems with discs for about 2 years 2004-2006. I have check read back
to my oldest discs with no trouble in most cases, barring those which had
systematic problems. It's clear (I keep logs of software updates) that
one version of the writer software was glitching at the same point every
time; I suspect a buffer underrun. I managed to recover it all one way
and another as the glitch was in a metadata area. For the last two years,
everything gets ECCs added.

And they ought to survive EMP too!

I looked at the cost, usability and general hassle of backing everything
up on DVD and decided that actually a second drive was no more expensive
for the amount of data I had and the really really important stuff could
go on a SUB drive and be put somewhere safe, every so often.

You cant lose a second drive. And a 180GB of really important data is at
least 30 DVDs.

The only time I have had to fully restore is when I rebuilt the server
and upped the disk size after a primary disk went. That was a selective
restore since it had an uprated OS.

I've restored bits of the computers that are backed up on it after
crashes as well, but mostly they dont have critical data on them -
they are just 'cloud clients' onto the main server



--
The theory of Communism may be summed up in one sentence: Abolish all
private property.

Karl Marx

On 20 Aug 2019 13:28:14 GMT, Bob Eager wrote:

On Tue, 20 Aug 2019 11:35:25 +0100, T i m wrote:

Some are up top over 50,000 hours (the Red ones).

Any idea what the MTBF is on those drives Bob?

They quote (statistical estimate) 1,000,000 hours! My experience wouls
say that's not totally improbable, given the nimber of failures I've had
over time, although I think I've only ever kept one for about 60,000
hours.

Good to hear.

That is pretty well permanently powered on in my case, low number
of spinups, and kept fairly cool (either the microservers which are well
cooled, or big Corsair cases).

I do think that helps quite a bit.

snip

Sounds like you have most eventualities covered Bob (depending the
height above sea level of all locations and their hardness against an
EMP). ;-)

We are well above the level of the building designated as the flood
relief centre. The storage unit is a lot higher!

Handy.

Can't do much about the
EMP; if it covers here and North Americ as well, I doubt I'll care!

Quite, few of us will. ;-(

snip

I have a BDRW in a couple of machines and I wondered if the media was
any less reliable long term than say DVDR's? 50GB is quite a bit more
than even 9GB.

I wondered that about DVD vs. CD, and they seem pretty well the same. The
only CD failures I had were very cheap media (early days) and soem
problems with discs for about 2 years 2004-2006. I have check read back
to my oldest discs with no trouble in most cases, barring those which had
systematic problems.

Have you ever experienced optical media mould or the edges of the
(read / write) media itself being eaten away (I have), even on a ROM.

It's clear (I keep logs of software updates) that
one version of the writer software was glitching at the same point every
time; I suspect a buffer underrun. I managed to recover it all one way
and another as the glitch was in a metadata area. For the last two years,
everything gets ECCs added.

Sound like it's worth doing (that way).

And they ought to survive EMP too!

Not sure the status of one's photo collection would be the first thing
on our minds under those circumstances but ... ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On Tue, 20 Aug 2019 15:09:32 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

snip

You cant lose a second drive. And a 180GB of really important data is at
least 30 DVDs.

But only 4 dual layer BDs.

Cheers, T i m

On Tuesday, 20 August 2019 16:55:47 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
On Tue, 20 Aug 2019 15:09:32 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

snip

You cant lose a second drive. And a 180GB of really important data is at
least 30 DVDs.

But only 4 dual layer BDs.

How many 5 1/4 inch floppies is that ;-)

My first floppy drive was single sided 100K. That was a lot compared to the previous method which used a C90 cassette tape.



Cheers, T i m

whisky-dave wrote
Rod Speed wrote
whisky-dave wrote

Dunno, I don't bother with 2.5" drives, I buy
the 3.5" drives and 8TB drives most recently.

What do you actually need to back up ?

Its not for backup, thats the stuff recorded on the PVR that I havent
got around to watching. We do go thru our summer with less stuff
worth watching being broadcast than I want to watch so can watch
stuff that I hadn't got around to watching previously at that time.

I don't find that much worth recording,

I record everything I watch, dont watch anything live
except some election eve broadcasts and those are
recorded while I watch them live too. I do that so I can
watch it when I want to watch it, not when its being
broadcast and so I can skip the ads. We have two govt
operations, the equivalent of your BBC and one of them,
the SBS has commercial ads like the commercial channels
have, to pay for it. We dont have TV licenses anymore.

and most that I do record I've seen before and
when I have watched something I delete it.

I do too with most of what I watch. But until this year
I used to record entire blocks of the stuff I want to
watch on a particular channel and when I watch one
of the items, would have to edit the recorded file to
delete just the one I watched and usually didnt bother.
I now record each program in a separate file so its
now easy to delete what I have watched.

Of the 4 hours on TV I watched last night

I normally only watch a couple of hours a night, sometimes 3, hardly ever 4.

I recorded 3 hours of it then watched it all last night recorded last
night.

I watch the best stuff next evening, and more during the rest of the
week. The stuff I watch is mostly broadcast on Sunday night and there
is sometimes nothing worth recording on Thursday or Friday night.

Sure my tIvo is 74% full but I;ve had it 4 years or so and
never run out of space I;ve plenty on there I want to watch
mines a 500GB if I had 8TB I would record more crap

The 8TB drive is only half full and I got it 2 years ago now.

and I might spend more time watching crap
too , which is something I want to aviod.

You appear to watch twice as much as I do if your 4 hours is typical.

PLus there;s plenty of catchup channels here in the UK.

There are here too, but its nowhere near as convenient
to skip the ads with those. I mute the audio during the
ad, keep laying freecell pro which I do when watching
anything, have to keep an eye on the screen the video
is displayed on to see when to unmute the audio again.

With recorded stuff I just hit the one key to skip all the
ads with maybe another smaller jump or two for when
the ad break isnt always for the same amount of time.
Much more convenient than when using catchup.

And it can take months till I watch something
and it can have gone from the catchup by then.

I can pretty much watch any fools and horses episode
I want it's reperated over and over again, as is star trek
TNBG is on it's 3rd rerun this year IIRC, I don't really
need to record them.

I prefer to record them so I can watch it when it suits me.

I should really go thru the older stuff that I have never got around
to watching and likely never will watch, but those 8TB drives are so
****ing cheap that its not worth my time to save so little money.

I don;t find 8TB drives ****ing cheap,

My most recent one only cost me $130

they are about twice the price of 4TB

Thats bull****.

and I wouldnlt spend even half that to store stuff that'll be repeated
the follwing week or somethime day, or I can get from catchup.

Much more convenient to play it from the drive instead
of farting around checking when it will be broadcast
next or farting around with the stupid ads on catchup.

Some if it;s their job to backup data I can understadn but the average
home users, sure I back up pictures of my cat and gig's I go to but I
can't think of anything that would be seriously life changing.

I do take photos of what bits go with what device when I buy
something but that about all that would be a nuisance if I lost.
Dont use those photos much tho so not the end of the world
if I lost them.

I;d agree but most buy backup drives to back stuff up.

I do too but bigger for the PVR unwatched stuff too.

"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Tuesday, 20 August 2019 03:38:11 UTC+1, Rod Speed wrote:
T i m wrote
Rod Speed wrote

A mate used to buy the sweetest price point 2.5" drives for his
desktops and would retire them to his laptops when bigger
capacities came down in price. That may have changed with
a change in usage (cloud storage etc) and the advent of SSD's
that seem to have a better performance impact in laptops.

I don't bother with SSDs because my system runs 24/7 and I only reboot
when I have to and it isnt work paying anything for a quicker reboot.

But whilst SSD's do often help reduce boot speeds, it's not all about
that in every case. Like, I understand they draw less power,

Not something that matters with a desktop system.

It can, less noise, no need for fans to keep things cool.

I dont have any fans to keep drives cool. And I dont have
any covers on the desktop system and have to look closely
at the cpu fan to see that its actually spinning its so quiet,
the standard intel i5 cpu. The power supply is also as quiet
as I can find too. and it also inaudible.

And more and morem people don't have desktops they have laptops

I dont for my main PC which is also the PVR.

Hate laptop keyboards, have two 23" widescreen monitors
and no point in doing that on a laptop with an external
keyboard and mouse and external drives.

or mobile devices,

Not suitable for my main PC.

laptops with SSDs tend to last longer

Never had a laptop HDD die.

are lighter,

Irrelevant when it doesnt more around. I do have a laptop
that I use when bottling beer and occasionally in the kitchen
but use the iphone when I need a portable device out of the
house. Much more convenient to be able to put it in my
pocket and I dont have the + iphones either, too big to
be convenient in the pocket.

quieter

Not than my pc which has been chosen to be as quiet as possible
with no extra fans, just the cpu fan and power supply fan.

and need less cooling

Thats bull****, laptops need more
cooling because they are so compact.

and use less power

I couldnt care less. Its a trivial part of my total power use.

which makes battery life longer.

No battery at all in my desktop.

generate less heat,

Ditto. I don't even bother to have the covers on mine.

What covers ?

The covers all desktop cases have.

they are and will remain silent for their entire life spans

Mine stay entirely silent.

Can't hear them above the noise from
the fans is usually the situation.

No fans in mine.

and many offer a longer warrantee than most spinny drives.

I choose the long warranty HDDs and have never had a warranty claim.

That proves nothing.

It means I dont care about the warranty period.

It's possible you would get a longer warrantee (5 years) than a
spinny drive designed for the role of NAS drive (WD Red 3 years).

But pointless spending money to get that.

Not for most.

Tis for most given that they dont claim on the warranty.

Given that a 2.5" SSD is now only a few quid more than a Red drive ...

Both are much too small to be any use for me.

Makes you wonder why componies make them doesn't it,

Nope, its obvious why they do, most dont need the space I do.

On Wed, 21 Aug 2019 05:52:23 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH 116 !!! lines of troll****

05:52 am in Australia? Did you "sleep in" today, senile Ozzie ****? Whatsa
matter with you? Are you sick? LOL

--
Website (from 2007) dedicated to the 85-year-old trolling senile
cretin from Oz:
https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/r...d-faq.2973853/

On Wed, 21 Aug 2019 05:34:45 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH another 113 !!! lines of the usual absolutely idiotic troll blather

--
about senile Rot Speed:
"This is like having a conversation with someone with brain damage."
MID:

"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 20 Aug 2019 12:26:50 +0100, "dennis@home"
wrote:
snip

The 'problem' with that particular solution is that it was pulling
over 40W when running (with 4 x Seagate's, Red's might have been lower
power) and 17W when idle (and was still quite warm when sleeping).

Cheers, T i m

[1] Mate says he has another (empty) TeraStation somewhere that I
could have and I might feel happier actually using such ITRW, knowing
I had some spare hardware to fall back on once I had committed to the
drives.


I don't run NAS drives in my synology boxes.

Interesting.

They don't spin continuously so I use desktop drives and they are fine.

How do we know if they are (or will be) as fine as specific NAS /
Server drives though? I'm not just talking warranty protection here
but the real world long term reliability of such things?

I wonder how much of the spinning thing is supposed to be 'the point'
with NAS drives though (even though I generally get drives to spin
down).

eg, The marketing blurb seems to suggest that NAS drives are (compared
with desktop drives presumably) 'low power, low noise and low heat',
as those are things that might otherwise be issues. However, I'm not
sure just how many drives fail because the man spindle bearing or
motor fails, rather than the media itself or the electronics?

So, do the drives get powered down when they spin down?

WD green in the one.

Ok.
I forget what's in the other.

Ok.

I did have an early fail on one drive but they replaced it with a bigger
one under warranty without any hassle.

Sure, you are bound to get some infant mortality with these things
(all part of the 'Bathtub' MTBF graph) so it can be more down to how
the manufacturers / suppliers then deal with that that's the issue.

In the old days (and possibly pre SMART), when one installed a HDD in
say a server you would note it's published MTBF and put it's potential
life span in your diary and be ready to replace it before that time.

Only those who don't understand MTBF did that.

With SMART and redundancy, it seems people (server farms) just wait
for them to fail and then swap them out?

With RAID, yep. Tho with SMART it is better to monitor the
SMART stats and swap before they fail when the number of
remapped sectors starts increasing.

How do you manage your Windows PC backups to the Synology boxes Den?
Mine should arrive tomorrow but I'd still be interested to learn what
tools to use and how?

Daughter has a Windows laptop and desktop she would like
'automatically' backed up plus possibly a central store of (copy in
many cases) photos, so she can use / access them easier?

The NAS itself would also be backed up somehow (not sure how yet).

On Wed, 21 Aug 2019 07:36:18 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:


In the old days (and possibly pre SMART), when one installed a HDD in
say a server you would note it's published MTBF and put it's potential
life span in your diary and be ready to replace it before that time.

Only those who don't understand MTBF did that.

Everybody here understands that you are a bull****ting, self-opinionated,
sociopathic asshole, senile Rodent!

--
addressing nym-shifting senile Rodent:
"You on the other hand are a heavyweight bull****ter who demonstrates
your particular prowess at it every day."
MID:

T i m wrote:

How do you manage your Windows PC backups to the Synology boxes Den?
Mine should arrive tomorrow but I'd still be interested to learn what
tools to use and how?

I use Macrium Reflect 7 Home Edition
https://www.macrium.com/products/home/

You can have a 30 day free trial.

Previously I had used Acronis, but it had a number of fundamental
shortcomings, which the company showed no signs of addressing in
subsequent releases, and needed frequent manual intervention.

Reflect has been reasonably OK, and is very configurable. I have
it set up to email me confirmations of each backup. It does very
occasionally appear to crash windows, which is annoying, but
tolerable.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK
@ChrisJDixon1

Plant amazing Acers.

"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Tuesday, 20 August 2019 20:42:29 UTC+1, Rod Speed wrote:
whisky-dave wrote

I don't find that much worth recording,

I record everything I watch, dont watch anything live
except some election eve broadcasts and those are
recorded while I watch them live too.

I do that so I can
watch it when I want to watch it, not when its being
broadcast and so I can skip the ads.

I either mute or pause, go make a cup of tea have a **** or channel flick

Much more convenient to tap one keyboard key.

reams of your even sillier **** flushed where it belongs

On Thu, 22 Aug 2019 05:49:58 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH the two prize idiots' endless bull****

....and nothing's left!

--
dennis@home to retarded senile Rot:
"sod off rod you don't have a clue about anything."
Message-ID: