tim... wrote
Capitol wrote
tim... wrote

UK tariffs are down to the UK.

agreed

We can apply any tariff we like within the WTO rules to any cou7ntry we
like. So, tax EU lamb, but not New Zealand lamb.

No we can't, that's the point

Yes you can when there is a specific agreement in place between Britain and
NZ.

we tax all lamb or no lamb, you cannot pick and choose where it comes from
when applying tariffs

Corse you can when there is an agreement in place.

NAFTA is one example of that and the current Fates are too.

"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...
tim... wrote
Capitol wrote
tim... wrote

UK tariffs are down to the UK.

agreed

We can apply any tariff we like within the WTO rules to any cou7ntry we
like. So, tax EU lamb, but not New Zealand lamb.

No we can't, that's the point

Yes you can when there is a specific agreement in place between Britain
and NZ.

we tax all lamb or no lamb, you cannot pick and choose where it comes
from when applying tariffs

Corse you can when there is an agreement in place.

NAFTA is one example of that and the current Fates are too.

NAFTA is one example of that and the current FTAs are too.

"tim..." wrote in message
news


"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...


"tim..." wrote in message
news


"Tim Streater" wrote in message
.. .
In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:

In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
In article , TimW
wrote:

On 22/04/17 15:27, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , TimW

wrote:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C9-A5RRXcAA0ea9.jpg

I'm still waiting for someone to explain why there would be
tariffs.

The single market is a a tarriff-free zone

And tariffs on imports, even if we went WTO, would be under our
control. You seem to have bought into the lie that being WTO would
*automatically* mean tariffs.

Can you really see this country allowing in all imports with no tariffs
at
all?

More ****-stirring and making things up, I see. Did I say anything
about "all imports"? No.

From countries which will have imposed a tariff on our exports?

So if they impose tariffs, our tariffs would automatically spring into
life? You're just spouting more Remoaner bull****.


The problem with that line is there's more than one of "them"

We cannot remove tariffs from imports from the EU without also removing
tariffs from imports (of the same thing) from the USA or China (you can
replace remove with impose in that sentence to get the contra view)

How do we balance this trick if the EU wants to impose tariffs on us,
but the US doesn't? (for the purpose of the discussion, just pretend
that might happen)

Why can the EU selectively impose a tariff on stuff from Britain,

It won't be (doing it selectively)

In the absence of a Trade Deal it will simply apply the already in
existence EU External Tariff to UK imports, as it does to every other
non-EU country

But Britain is free to have any trade deals it likes and do it that way.

In article , Rod Speed
wrote:


"tim..." wrote in message
news


"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...


"tim..." wrote in message
news

"Tim Streater" wrote in message
.. .
In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:

In article , Tim
Streater wrote:
In article , TimW
wrote:

On 22/04/17 15:27, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , TimW
wrote:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C9-A5RRXcAA0ea9.jpg

I'm still waiting for someone to explain why there would be
tariffs.

The single market is a a tarriff-free zone

And tariffs on imports, even if we went WTO, would be under our
control. You seem to have bought into the lie that being WTO would
*automatically* mean tariffs.

Can you really see this country allowing in all imports with no
tariffs at all?

More ****-stirring and making things up, I see. Did I say anything
about "all imports"? No.

From countries which will have imposed a tariff on our exports?

So if they impose tariffs, our tariffs would automatically spring
into life? You're just spouting more Remoaner bull****.


The problem with that line is there's more than one of "them"

We cannot remove tariffs from imports from the EU without also
removing tariffs from imports (of the same thing) from the USA or
China (you can replace remove with impose in that sentence to get
the contra view)

How do we balance this trick if the EU wants to impose tariffs on us,
but the US doesn't? (for the purpose of the discussion, just
pretend that might happen)

Why can the EU selectively impose a tariff on stuff from Britain,

It won't be (doing it selectively)

In the absence of a Trade Deal it will simply apply the already in
existence EU External Tariff to UK imports, as it does to every other
non-EU country

But Britain is free to have any trade deals it likes and do it that way.

Britain is free to try and get any trade deal it likes. trade deals need
agreement of the other country

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

dennis@home wrote
tim... wrote

In the absence of a Trade Deal it will simply apply the already in
existence EU External Tariff to UK imports, as it does to every other
non-EU country

The brexteers don't appear to understand that without a trade deal with
the EU there will be tariffs.

There arent all that many with what Britain does export.

They are already there and will apply.

So May will want a deal

But not necessarily want it badly enough to be stupid
enough to agree to the free movement of EU citizens and
continuing to pay the EU what it currently pays the EU.

and that deal will come with the same sort of conditions that we already
have as a member of the EU.

You dont know that.

The only difference is that we will have no say in what the EU does.

Or that either.

The brexiteers are full of brex****.

And you remoaners are full of remoaner**** and lies.

"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Friday, 28 April 2017 10:59:14 UTC+1, tim... wrote:
"Capitol" wrote in message
o.uk...
tim... wrote:




UK tariffs are down to the UK.

agreed

We can apply any tariff we like within the WTO rules to any cou7ntry we
like. So, tax EU lamb, but not New Zealand lamb.

No we can't, that's the point

we tax all lamb or no lamb, you cannot pick and choose where it comes
from
when applying tariffs

Yes you can

No you can't under the WTO rules.

that's the whole idea behind tarrifs,

Nope.

totherwiose why have them.

To provide a sheltered workshop for your local producers so
they can charge what they like and be protected by tariff barriers.

Thats the whole point of the EU tariffs.

Not everyone operates like that anymore.

"Capitol" wrote in message
...
tim... wrote:


"Capitol" wrote in message
o.uk...
tim... wrote:




UK tariffs are down to the UK.

agreed

We can apply any tariff we like within the WTO rules to any cou7ntry
we like. So, tax EU lamb, but not New Zealand lamb.

No we can't, that's the point

we tax all lamb or no lamb, you cannot pick and choose where it comes
from when applying tariffs

False!

Its true under the WTO rules, but a country can do that with
an agreement between the countrys involved, Britain and NZ
in this case and there is obviously an incentive to have one
from the point of view of both countrys with that example.

But there wouldnt be any point in taxing EU lamb, just have
no tariff on lamb imports and EU lamb can't even hope to
compete with NZ lamb because the tiny little EU producers
have MUCH higher costs than NZ producers do.

"tim..." wrote in message
news


"dennis@home" wrote in message
eb.com...
On 28/04/2017 11:15, tim... wrote:

In the absence of a Trade Deal it will simply apply the already in
existence EU External Tariff to UK imports, as it does to every other
non-EU country

The brexteers don't appear to understand that without a trade deal with
the EU there will be tariffs.

No, we do understand that

that is why we need/want to arrange a trade deal

what we can't understand is why the other side (pretends it) isn't so
minded because it too could suffer the imposition of tariffs on its
trading with us.

They are already there and will apply.

Of course.

So May will want a deal and that deal will come with the same sort of
conditions that we already have as a member of the EU.

No it wont

the EU has agreed a deal with Canada, a much smaller market than us (and
that's at full potential, there is presumably not anywhere near as much
established trade)

that didn't come with requirements for freedoms of movement or "pay to
trade".

there is simply no precedence for trade deals to include these things

Thats a lie with all of Norway, Switzerland etc.

(in fact the latter is specifically forbidden).

Like hell it is.

The only difference is that we will have no say in what the EU does.

who cares, we wont be in it.

As for us having no say in its requirements for the products that we can
trade with the EU.,
we don't have a say in the requirements for the products that we trade
with the USA. No-one see that as an earth shattering problem.
we don't have a say in the requirements for the products that we trade
with Australia. No-one see that as an earth shattering problem.
we don't have a say in the requirements for the products that we trade
with South Africa. No-one see that as an earth shattering problem.

etc etc

The brexiteers are full of brex****.

No Remoaners just don't understand

"tim..." wrote in message
news


"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Friday, 28 April 2017 10:59:14 UTC+1, tim... wrote:
"Capitol" wrote in message
o.uk...
tim... wrote:




UK tariffs are down to the UK.

agreed

We can apply any tariff we like within the WTO rules to any cou7ntry
we
like. So, tax EU lamb, but not New Zealand lamb.

No we can't, that's the point

we tax all lamb or no lamb, you cannot pick and choose where it comes
from
when applying tariffs

tim

Yes you can that's the whole idea behind tarrifs,

no it's not

totherwiose why have them.

to apply then unilaterally to all imports (of that product) to protect a
home production

not to apply then discriminatorily for geo-political point scoring

Even that is still possible under the WTO rules
by very narrowly defining what the tariff applys to.

It wouldnt be hard for the EU to do that with single malt scotch
for example if it wasnt for the fact that the EU needs Airbus wings
and engines etc from Britain otherwise Airbus will go broke.

"tim..." wrote in message
news


"Capitol" wrote in message
...
tim... wrote:


"Capitol" wrote in message
o.uk...
tim... wrote:




UK tariffs are down to the UK.

agreed

We can apply any tariff we like within the WTO rules to any cou7ntry
we like. So, tax EU lamb, but not New Zealand lamb.

No we can't, that's the point

we tax all lamb or no lamb, you cannot pick and choose where it comes
from when applying tariffs

tim






False!

it's not

It is in the most general way you claimed it.

whisky-dave wrote:
On Friday, 28 April 2017 12:55:31 UTC+1, Capitol wrote:
dennis@home wrote:
On 28/04/2017 11:15, tim... wrote:

In the absence of a Trade Deal it will simply apply the already in
existence EU External Tariff to UK imports, as it does to every other
non-EU country

The brexteers don't appear to understand that without a trade deal with
the EU there will be tariffs.
They are already there and will apply.

So May will want a deal and that deal will come with the same sort of
conditions that we already have as a member of the EU.
The only difference is that we will have no say in what the EU does.

The brexiteers are full of brex****.


Still Remoaning Denise?

Maybe he's one of the new Remoaners, a Re-Remoaner a bit like a boomerang but with less uses.


That made me laugh!

charles wrote:
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
On Friday, 28 April 2017 16:51:50 UTC+1, charles wrote:
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
On Friday, 28 April 2017 15:14:45 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article , tim...
wrote:
up about us leaving the EU. Basically non of the usual tariffs
and duties etc will apply. Such is their brave new world.

the problem is that there are two different points here

Most leavers who say that "tariffs are optional" are usually
responding to the otf claimed nonsense in the press, that leaving
the EU will impose tariffs that WILL put up prices for UK
consumers, when that is a complete falsehood.

All you can do is think about the most likely scenario. If anyone
thinks the non EU UK will allow in all imports regardless tariff
free, they are totally mad.

Of course they are if they think EU citizens will accept massive
increases in say the cost of whisky or cheddar cheese. I doubt those
in the UK will be very happy if the UK puts a tarrif on say brie or
german cars, but if we do who is likely to loose out most. Germany
because the taffir is 50% and no one in the UK (or very few) will buy
a gernan car at twice the price it was last week, who will lose
out... It'll be Germany NOT the UK as anyoen wantint to buy a car
might go for a non german car that has lower tarriffs

It would be an EU tariff - not exclusively German - and as has been
pointed out earlier it would be a identical tariff on all imported cars
unless we had special agreement with the EU.

So what would be the advantage for the EU to put tarriffs on anything. ?


you misunderstand. It is the UK which would impose thn tariff - but they
couldn't just do it on German cars - it would apply to all cars from the EU
(France, Italy & Spain immdiately spring to mind) and could well apply to
all cars from whereever.


We already have tariffs on all cars from outside the EU AIUI. Where's
the disadvantage to the UK?

dennis@home wrote:
On 28/04/2017 18:29, charles wrote:
In article . com,
dennis@home wrote:
On 28/04/2017 16:38, whisky-dave wrote:
On Friday, 28 April 2017 15:14:45 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article , tim...
wrote:
up about us leaving the EU. Basically non of the usual tariffs
and duties etc will apply. Such is their brave new world.

the problem is that there are two different points here

Most leavers who say that "tariffs are optional" are usually
responding to the otf claimed nonsense in the press, that leaving
the EU will impose tariffs that WILL put up prices for UK
consumers, when that is a complete falsehood.

All you can do is think about the most likely scenario. If anyone
thinks the non EU UK will allow in all imports regardless tariff
free, they are totally mad.

Of course they are if they think EU citizens will accept massive
increases in say the cost of whisky or cheddar cheese. I doubt those
in the UK will be very happy if the UK puts a tarrif on say brie or
german cars, but if we do who is likely to loose out most. Germany
because the taffir is 50% and no one in the UK (or very few) will buy
a gernan car at twice the price it was last week, who will lose
out... It'll be Germany NOT the UK as anyoen wantint to buy a car
might go for a non german car that has lower tarriffs or a car made
in the UK. I douubt those considering a car will give up driving or
start walking or using public transport

Also considering that most say we don't export much at all anyway,
why should we worry about tarrifs ?

Suppose the EU puts a 5% tariff on jet engines how long would it be
before all the Airbus planes were ordered with prat and whitney engines?

wouldn't the same tariff apply to them? Or have theya factory in Europe?


Rolls Royce would have pretty soon.
Which is the point, many companies are in the UK because of the free
trade area which is why May will do anything to stay in the free trade
area.

If it is necessary, build a new factory in the EU to supply their
needs. The profits will return to the UK. When you point out to the
Airbus salesman that Boeing( or Airbus China) can offer you a better
deal, what will Airbus EU do?

dennis@home wrote:
On 28/04/2017 12:25, whisky-dave wrote:
On Friday, 28 April 2017 10:59:14 UTC+1, tim... wrote:
"Capitol" wrote in message
o.uk...
tim... wrote:




UK tariffs are down to the UK.

agreed

We can apply any tariff we like within the WTO rules to any cou7ntry we
like. So, tax EU lamb, but not New Zealand lamb.

No we can't, that's the point

we tax all lamb or no lamb, you cannot pick and choose where it comes
from
when applying tariffs

tim

Yes you can that's the whole idea behind tarrifs, totherwiose why have
them.


Not with WTO rules you can't.


False again.

On Fri, 28 Apr 2017 18:10:18 +0100, dennis@home
wrote:



Suppose the EU puts a 5% tariff on jet engines how long would it be
before all the Airbus planes were ordered with prat and whitney engines?

It's Pratt.


G.Harman

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
tim... wrote:
up about us leaving the EU. Basically non of the usual tariffs and
duties etc will apply. Such is their brave new world.

the problem is that there are two different points here

Most leavers who say that "tariffs are optional" are usually responding
to the otf claimed nonsense in the press, that leaving the EU will
impose tariffs that WILL put up prices for UK consumers, when that is a
complete falsehood.

All you can do is think about the most likely scenario.
If anyone thinks the non EU UK will allow in all imports
regardless tariff free, they are totally mad.

How odd that these do get that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe...ade_agreements

That would decimate our agricultural industry in short order.

How odd that it didn’t when Britain was in the EU
and that was true of the stuff that came from the EU.

And pretty well all others too.

How odd that it didn’t when Britain was in the EU
and that was true of the stuff that came from the EU.

Because the likelihood is other countries will put
tariffs on our goods regardless of what we do.

Britain doesn’t export all that much that
can have tariffs applied now that matters.

In the absence of any trade agreement, other than WTO.

They cant do that selectively against Britain in that situation.

The EU can't either.

That the effect of the EU imposing tariffs on our exports to them may
make trade more difficult is not within the scope of that question and
you cannot extrapolate the answer to the first as the answer to the
second.

((I'll grant you that there are a set of people who don't know the
difference, but I can't say that I've noticed any here)

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
tim... wrote:
The brexteers don't appear to understand that without a trade deal
with the EU there will be tariffs.

No, we do understand that

that is why we need/want to arrange a trade deal

But we already had one. Which 'we' didn't like,

Not because of the TRADE deal.

so left the EU.

And wont be leaving by far the most comprehensively
trade deal the world has ever seen, the WTO, you watch.

what we can't understand is why the other side (pretends it) isn't so
minded because it too could suffer the imposition of tariffs on its
trading with us.

You are hoping the EU will negotiate a special deal with the UK

It has with all of these.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe...ade_agreements

- far better than any it already has with non EU members?

Nope, just as good as with these.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe...ade_agreements

Good luck with that.

Even sillier than you usually manage.

"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Friday, 28 April 2017 15:14:45 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
tim... wrote:
The brexteers don't appear to understand that without a trade deal
with the EU there will be tariffs.

No, we do understand that

that is why we need/want to arrange a trade deal

But we already had one. Which 'we' didn't like, so left the EU.

what we can't understand is why the other side (pretends it) isn't so
minded because it too could suffer the imposition of tariffs on its
trading with us.

You are hoping the EU will negotiate a special deal with the UK - far
better than any it already has with non EU members? Good luck with that.

How do you know that the deal we had was the best ?

Hard to do better than no tariffs or dutys on any trade within the EU.

We know there were NO negotiators from
the UK in fact the majority were German ,

Dont need negotiators to end up with no tariffs or dutys on any trade.

so how can you be so sure we can't get a better deal ?

What is better than no tariff or duty on any trade ?

Do you have any idea what the actuyal
deals we have at the moment are ?

Yep, with the EU, no tariffs or duty on any trade at all.

So wothout knowing what the current deal is

We know what the current deal is, no tariff or duty on any trade.

how can yuo decide that we can't get a better one

Cant do any better than no tariff or duty on any trade.

"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Friday, 28 April 2017 15:14:45 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
tim... wrote:
up about us leaving the EU. Basically non of the usual tariffs and
duties etc will apply. Such is their brave new world.

the problem is that there are two different points here

Most leavers who say that "tariffs are optional" are usually responding
to the otf claimed nonsense in the press, that leaving the EU will
impose tariffs that WILL put up prices for UK consumers, when that is a
complete falsehood.

All you can do is think about the most likely scenario. If anyone thinks
the non EU UK will allow in all imports regardless tariff free, they are
totally mad.

Of course they are if they think EU citizens will accept massive
increases in say the cost of whisky or cheddar cheese.

Not possible given that Ireland will remain in the EU.

I doubt those in the UK will be very happy if the
UK puts a tarrif on say brie or german cars,

Not legally possible under the WTO rules, and
the EU and Britain are signatorys to those.

but if we do who is likely to loose out most.

Those doing what is contrary to the WTO rules.

Germany because the taffir is 50% and no one in the UK (or very few)
will buy a gernan car at twice the price it was last week, who will lose
out...

Just those that buy kraut cars, they will have to buy
worse cars instead or pay twice as much for the same cars.

It'll be Germany NOT the UK

Both would in fact.

as anyoen wantint to buy a car might go for a non german
car that has lower tarriffs or a car made in the UK.

And so end up with a much worse car
or pay twice as much for the same car.

I douubt those considering a car will give up driving
or start walking or using public transport.

Sure, but they would obviously end up with much
worse cars or pay twice as much for the same cars.

Also considering that most say we don't export much
at all anyway, why should we worry about tarrifs ?

Indeed. And they cant be selectively applied
to Britain under the WTO rules anyway.

The EU isnt going to massively hike the tariff on all cars imported
into the EU, because everyone would do that in retaliation and
that would kill the kraut car exports stone dead and the krauts
arent actually stupid enough to allow that to happen.

That would decimate our agricultural industry in short order.

Why ?

Indeed, given that Britain already has zero tariffs with the
whole of the ****ing EU and that hasnt produced that result
even tho much of the trade with the EU is in agriculture.

And pretty well all others too. Because the likelihood is other countries
will put tariffs on our goods regardless of what we do. In the absence of
any trade agreement, other than WTO.

So what if tarrifs are put on our goods ?

Not possible to do that selectively by country under the WTO rules.

Sure, the EU could certainly do that with say cheddar
cheese and single malt scotch which hardly anyone
else produces much of, but its hardly a huge part
of the total trade Britain does with the EU.

The EU certainly isnt going to do it with aircraft engines
and wings, because that would kill Airbus, the EU's only
really important industrial industry now apart from cars.

If you do understand this how about some examples.

It might well kill some sectors like say lamb for eating
because they wouldnt be able to compete with NZ's
much more efficient industry and maybe dairy too, but
thats hardly a very important part of Britain's economy.

And consumers would get cheaper food if the
high cost producers in Britain went bust anyway.

"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Friday, 28 April 2017 16:51:50 UTC+1, charles wrote:
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
On Friday, 28 April 2017 15:14:45 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article , tim...
wrote:
up about us leaving the EU. Basically non of the usual tariffs
and
duties etc will apply. Such is their brave new world.

the problem is that there are two different points here

Most leavers who say that "tariffs are optional" are usually
responding to the otf claimed nonsense in the press, that leaving
the
EU will impose tariffs that WILL put up prices for UK consumers,
when
that is a complete falsehood.

All you can do is think about the most likely scenario. If anyone
thinks the non EU UK will allow in all imports regardless tariff
free,
they are totally mad.

Of course they are if they think EU citizens will accept massive
increases in say the cost of whisky or cheddar cheese. I doubt those in
the UK will be very happy if the UK puts a tarrif on say brie or
german
cars, but if we do who is likely to loose out most. Germany because the
taffir is 50% and no one in the UK (or very few) will buy a gernan car
at
twice the price it was last week, who will lose out... It'll be Germany
NOT the UK as anyoen wantint to buy a car might go for a non german car
that has lower tarriffs

It would be an EU tariff - not exclusively German - and as has been
pointed
out earlier it would be a identical tariff on all imported cars unless we
had special agreement with the EU.

So what would be the advantage for the EU to put tarriffs on anything. ?

Its automatic that without an agreement with the EU, Britain gets to wear
the same tariff that every other non EU country has with exports to the EU.

Corse Britain doesnt actually export all that much that matters to the EU
that has tariff protection anyway.

"charles" wrote in message
...
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
On Friday, 28 April 2017 16:51:50 UTC+1, charles wrote:
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
On Friday, 28 April 2017 15:14:45 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article , tim...
wrote:
up about us leaving the EU. Basically non of the usual tariffs
and duties etc will apply. Such is their brave new world.

the problem is that there are two different points here

Most leavers who say that "tariffs are optional" are usually
responding to the otf claimed nonsense in the press, that leaving
the EU will impose tariffs that WILL put up prices for UK
consumers, when that is a complete falsehood.

All you can do is think about the most likely scenario. If anyone
thinks the non EU UK will allow in all imports regardless tariff
free, they are totally mad.

Of course they are if they think EU citizens will accept massive
increases in say the cost of whisky or cheddar cheese. I doubt those
in the UK will be very happy if the UK puts a tarrif on say brie or
german cars, but if we do who is likely to loose out most. Germany
because the taffir is 50% and no one in the UK (or very few) will buy
a gernan car at twice the price it was last week, who will lose
out... It'll be Germany NOT the UK as anyoen wantint to buy a car
might go for a non german car that has lower tarriffs

It would be an EU tariff - not exclusively German - and as has been
pointed out earlier it would be a identical tariff on all imported cars
unless we had special agreement with the EU.

So what would be the advantage for the EU to put tarriffs on anything. ?


you misunderstand. It is the UK which would impose thn tariff - but they
couldn't just do it on German cars - it would apply to all cars from the
EU

Nope, to all cars imported from anywhere except places that Britain has
a trade agreement with, and currently it doesn’t have any of those.

(France, Italy & Spain immdiately spring to mind)
and could well apply to all cars from whereever.

Not could well, that’s what the WTO rules require
and it would obviously take time to have trade
agreements with in vidual countrys, particularly
with respect to cars because most countrys still
do produce cars, arguably stupidly.

"dennis@home" wrote in message
web.com...
On 28/04/2017 16:38, whisky-dave wrote:
On Friday, 28 April 2017 15:14:45 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article , tim...
wrote:
up about us leaving the EU. Basically non of the usual tariffs
and duties etc will apply. Such is their brave new world.

the problem is that there are two different points here

Most leavers who say that "tariffs are optional" are usually
responding to the otf claimed nonsense in the press, that leaving
the EU will impose tariffs that WILL put up prices for UK
consumers, when that is a complete falsehood.

All you can do is think about the most likely scenario. If anyone
thinks the non EU UK will allow in all imports regardless tariff
free, they are totally mad.

Of course they are if they think EU citizens will accept massive
increases in say the cost of whisky or cheddar cheese. I doubt those
in the UK will be very happy if the UK puts a tarrif on say brie or
german cars, but if we do who is likely to loose out most. Germany
because the taffir is 50% and no one in the UK (or very few) will buy
a gernan car at twice the price it was last week, who will lose
out... It'll be Germany NOT the UK as anyoen wantint to buy a car
might go for a non german car that has lower tarriffs or a car made
in the UK. I douubt those considering a car will give up driving or
start walking or using public transport

Also considering that most say we don't export much at all anyway,
why should we worry about tarrifs ?

Suppose the EU puts a 5% tariff on jet engines how long would it be before
all the Airbus planes were ordered with prat and whitney engines?

Why would Airbus change on that ? The tariff would have to apply
to both US and British manufactured engines under the WTO rules.

Suppose the EU put a 10% tariff on aeroplane wings how long do you think
it would take to move wing production to France?

A ****ing long time given how hard it is to setup a new
plant to do that, let alone the immense cost of doing that.

Suppose the EU put a 10% tariff on cars how long do you think it would
take for the Japanese car makers to move production of all the export
models to another EU country?

Wouldnt ever happen, because they sell plenty of them to poms.

Do you really think the EU would worry if we put a 10% tariff on cars we
import?

Corse it would when fewer poms would buy cars made in the EU
and would buy ones made on that soggy little frigid island instead,
mostly by very inefficient union bludgers who can demand anything
they like in wages and conditions with cheap labour no longer
allowed to pour in from the dregs of the EU if they want to.

That would decimate our agricultural industry in short order.
Why ?

And pretty well all others too. Because the likelihood is other
countries will put tariffs on our goods regardless of what we do.
In the absence of any trade agreement, other than WTO.

So what if tarrifs are put on our goods ?

If you do understand this how about some examples.

Everything that has been said is about others putting tariffs on our goods
or don't you get it?

You have never got the basics yourself.

"dennis@home" wrote in message
web.com...
On 28/04/2017 15:13, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
tim... wrote:
The brexteers don't appear to understand that without a trade deal
with the EU there will be tariffs.

No, we do understand that

that is why we need/want to arrange a trade deal

But we already had one. Which 'we' didn't like, so left the EU.

what we can't understand is why the other side (pretends it) isn't so
minded because it too could suffer the imposition of tariffs on its
trading with us.

You are hoping the EU will negotiate a special deal with the UK - far
better than any it already has with non EU members? Good luck with that.


They actually want one that is better than EU members.

Nope. And plenty of these have that anyway.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe...ade_agreements

"dennis@home" wrote in message
web.com...
On 28/04/2017 18:29, charles wrote:
In article . com,
dennis@home wrote:
On 28/04/2017 16:38, whisky-dave wrote:
On Friday, 28 April 2017 15:14:45 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article , tim...
wrote:
up about us leaving the EU. Basically non of the usual tariffs
and duties etc will apply. Such is their brave new world.

the problem is that there are two different points here

Most leavers who say that "tariffs are optional" are usually
responding to the otf claimed nonsense in the press, that leaving
the EU will impose tariffs that WILL put up prices for UK
consumers, when that is a complete falsehood.

All you can do is think about the most likely scenario. If anyone
thinks the non EU UK will allow in all imports regardless tariff
free, they are totally mad.

Of course they are if they think EU citizens will accept massive
increases in say the cost of whisky or cheddar cheese. I doubt those
in the UK will be very happy if the UK puts a tarrif on say brie or
german cars, but if we do who is likely to loose out most. Germany
because the taffir is 50% and no one in the UK (or very few) will buy
a gernan car at twice the price it was last week, who will lose
out... It'll be Germany NOT the UK as anyoen wantint to buy a car
might go for a non german car that has lower tarriffs or a car made
in the UK. I douubt those considering a car will give up driving or
start walking or using public transport

Also considering that most say we don't export much at all anyway,
why should we worry about tarrifs ?

Suppose the EU puts a 5% tariff on jet engines how long would it be
before all the Airbus planes were ordered with prat and whitney engines?

wouldn't the same tariff apply to them? Or have theya factory in Europe?


Rolls Royce would have pretty soon.
Which is the point, many companies are in the UK because of the free trade
area which is why May will do anything to stay in the free trade area.

Bet she aint actually stupid enough to go for BINO because she knows
what will happen to her politically if she was actually that stupid.

"charles" wrote in message
...
In article , Rod Speed
wrote:


"tim..." wrote in message
news


"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...


"tim..." wrote in message
news

"Tim Streater" wrote in message
.. .
In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:

In article , Tim
Streater wrote:
In article , TimW
wrote:

On 22/04/17 15:27, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , TimW
wrote:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C9-A5RRXcAA0ea9.jpg

I'm still waiting for someone to explain why there would be
tariffs.

The single market is a a tarriff-free zone

And tariffs on imports, even if we went WTO, would be under our
control. You seem to have bought into the lie that being WTO would
*automatically* mean tariffs.

Can you really see this country allowing in all imports with no
tariffs at all?

More ****-stirring and making things up, I see. Did I say anything
about "all imports"? No.

From countries which will have imposed a tariff on our exports?

So if they impose tariffs, our tariffs would automatically spring
into life? You're just spouting more Remoaner bull****.


The problem with that line is there's more than one of "them"

We cannot remove tariffs from imports from the EU without also
removing tariffs from imports (of the same thing) from the USA or
China (you can replace remove with impose in that sentence to get
the contra view)

How do we balance this trick if the EU wants to impose tariffs on us,
but the US doesn't? (for the purpose of the discussion, just
pretend that might happen)

Why can the EU selectively impose a tariff on stuff from Britain,

It won't be (doing it selectively)

In the absence of a Trade Deal it will simply apply the already in
existence EU External Tariff to UK imports, as it does to every other
non-EU country

But Britain is free to have any trade deals it likes and do it that way.

Britain is free to try and get any trade deal it likes. trade deals need
agreement of the other country

Yes, but there are plenty that have a good reason to have one.

"Capitol" wrote in message
o.uk...
dennis@home wrote:
On 28/04/2017 18:29, charles wrote:
In article . com,
dennis@home wrote:
On 28/04/2017 16:38, whisky-dave wrote:
On Friday, 28 April 2017 15:14:45 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article , tim...
wrote:
up about us leaving the EU. Basically non of the usual tariffs
and duties etc will apply. Such is their brave new world.

the problem is that there are two different points here

Most leavers who say that "tariffs are optional" are usually
responding to the otf claimed nonsense in the press, that leaving
the EU will impose tariffs that WILL put up prices for UK
consumers, when that is a complete falsehood.

All you can do is think about the most likely scenario. If anyone
thinks the non EU UK will allow in all imports regardless tariff
free, they are totally mad.

Of course they are if they think EU citizens will accept massive
increases in say the cost of whisky or cheddar cheese. I doubt those
in the UK will be very happy if the UK puts a tarrif on say brie or
german cars, but if we do who is likely to loose out most. Germany
because the taffir is 50% and no one in the UK (or very few) will buy
a gernan car at twice the price it was last week, who will lose
out... It'll be Germany NOT the UK as anyoen wantint to buy a car
might go for a non german car that has lower tarriffs or a car made
in the UK. I douubt those considering a car will give up driving or
start walking or using public transport

Also considering that most say we don't export much at all anyway,
why should we worry about tarrifs ?

Suppose the EU puts a 5% tariff on jet engines how long would it be
before all the Airbus planes were ordered with prat and whitney
engines?

wouldn't the same tariff apply to them? Or have theya factory in
Europe?


Rolls Royce would have pretty soon.
Which is the point, many companies are in the UK because of the free
trade area which is why May will do anything to stay in the free trade
area.

If it is necessary, build a new factory in the EU to supply their needs.

Thats obviously going to be much more expensive than not doing that.

The profits will return to the UK.

Far fewer profits, because of the immense cost of the new factory.

When you point out to the Airbus salesman that Boeing( or Airbus China)

No such animal.

can offer you a better deal, what will Airbus EU do?

Supply the engines that the buyer of the aircraft wants.

Just like they do now.

"Capitol" wrote in message
...
dennis@home wrote:
On 28/04/2017 12:25, whisky-dave wrote:
On Friday, 28 April 2017 10:59:14 UTC+1, tim... wrote:
"Capitol" wrote in message
o.uk...
tim... wrote:




UK tariffs are down to the UK.

agreed

We can apply any tariff we like within the WTO rules to any cou7ntry
we
like. So, tax EU lamb, but not New Zealand lamb.

No we can't, that's the point

we tax all lamb or no lamb, you cannot pick and choose where it comes
from
when applying tariffs

tim

Yes you can that's the whole idea behind tarrifs, totherwiose why have
them.


Not with WTO rules you can't.


False again.

Nope. Under the WTO rules, tariffs can't be country specific
unless there is a trade agreement with that country.

In article , charles
writes
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
On Friday, 28 April 2017 16:51:50 UTC+1, charles wrote:
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
On Friday, 28 April 2017 15:14:45 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article , tim...
wrote:
up about us leaving the EU. Basically non of the usual tariffs
and duties etc will apply. Such is their brave new world.

the problem is that there are two different points here

Most leavers who say that "tariffs are optional" are usually
responding to the otf claimed nonsense in the press, that leaving
the EU will impose tariffs that WILL put up prices for UK
consumers, when that is a complete falsehood.

All you can do is think about the most likely scenario. If anyone
thinks the non EU UK will allow in all imports regardless tariff
free, they are totally mad.

Of course they are if they think EU citizens will accept massive
increases in say the cost of whisky or cheddar cheese. I doubt those
in the UK will be very happy if the UK puts a tarrif on say brie or
german cars, but if we do who is likely to loose out most. Germany
because the taffir is 50% and no one in the UK (or very few) will buy
a gernan car at twice the price it was last week, who will lose
out... It'll be Germany NOT the UK as anyoen wantint to buy a car
might go for a non german car that has lower tarriffs

It would be an EU tariff - not exclusively German - and as has been
pointed out earlier it would be a identical tariff on all imported cars
unless we had special agreement with the EU.

So what would be the advantage for the EU to put tarriffs on anything. ?


you misunderstand. It is the UK which would impose thn tariff - but they
couldn't just do it on German cars - it would apply to all cars from the EU
(France, Italy & Spain immdiately spring to mind) and could well apply to
all cars from whereever.

The cars "from wherever" are already subject to any tariff imposed by
the EU. When we leave we can make our own arrangements with South Korea,
Japan, USA etc.
--
bert

In article . com,
lid writes
On 28/04/2017 18:29, charles wrote:
In article . com,
dennis@home wrote:
On 28/04/2017 16:38, whisky-dave wrote:
On Friday, 28 April 2017 15:14:45 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article , tim...
wrote:
up about us leaving the EU. Basically non of the usual tariffs
and duties etc will apply. Such is their brave new world.

the problem is that there are two different points here

Most leavers who say that "tariffs are optional" are usually
responding to the otf claimed nonsense in the press, that leaving
the EU will impose tariffs that WILL put up prices for UK
consumers, when that is a complete falsehood.

All you can do is think about the most likely scenario. If anyone
thinks the non EU UK will allow in all imports regardless tariff
free, they are totally mad.

Of course they are if they think EU citizens will accept massive
increases in say the cost of whisky or cheddar cheese. I doubt those
in the UK will be very happy if the UK puts a tarrif on say brie or
german cars, but if we do who is likely to loose out most. Germany
because the taffir is 50% and no one in the UK (or very few) will buy
a gernan car at twice the price it was last week, who will lose
out... It'll be Germany NOT the UK as anyoen wantint to buy a car
might go for a non german car that has lower tarriffs or a car made
in the UK. I douubt those considering a car will give up driving or
start walking or using public transport

Also considering that most say we don't export much at all anyway,
why should we worry about tarrifs ?

Suppose the EU puts a 5% tariff on jet engines how long would it be
before all the Airbus planes were ordered with prat and whitney engines?
wouldn't the same tariff apply to them? Or have theya factory in
Europe?


Rolls Royce would have pretty soon.
Which is the point, many companies are in the UK because of the free
trade area which is why May will do anything to stay in the free trade
area.
So why are they still heavily investing in the UK?
--
bert

In article , tim...
writes


"Capitol" wrote in message
news:YqGdnRDnjbbvW2HFnZ2dnUU78bmdnZ2d@brightview. co.uk...
tim... wrote:




UK tariffs are down to the UK.

agreed

We can apply any tariff we like within the WTO rules to any cou7ntry
we like. So, tax EU lamb, but not New Zealand lamb.

No we can't, that's the point

we tax all lamb or no lamb, you cannot pick and choose where it comes
from when applying tariffs

tim




Under basic WTO rules, no, But you can set up specific deals and
register them with WTO.
--
bert

In article , tim...
writes


"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...


"tim..." wrote in message
news


"Tim Streater" wrote in message
t...
In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:

In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
In article , TimW
wrote:

On 22/04/17 15:27, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , TimW
wrote:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C9-A5RRXcAA0ea9.jpg

I'm still waiting for someone to explain why there would be


The single market is a a tarriff-free zone

And tariffs on imports, even if we went WTO, would be under our
control. You seem to have bought into the lie that being WTO would
*automatically* mean tariffs.

Can you really see this country allowing in all imports with no
tariffs at
all?

More ****-stirring and making things up, I see. Did I say anything
about "all imports"? No.

From countries which will have imposed a tariff on our exports?

So if they impose tariffs, our tariffs would automatically spring into
life? You're just spouting more Remoaner bull****.


The problem with that line is there's more than one of "them"

We cannot remove tariffs from imports from the EU without also
removing tariffs from imports (of the same thing) from the USA or
China (you can replace remove with impose in that sentence to get
the contra view)

How do we balance this trick if the EU wants to impose tariffs on
us, but the US doesn't? (for the purpose of the discussion, just
pretend that might happen)

Why can the EU selectively impose a tariff on stuff
from Britain,

It won't be (doing it selectively)

In the absence of a Trade Deal it will simply apply the already in
existence EU External Tariff to UK imports, as it does to every other
non-EU country

tim






And given we are a significant net contributor to the EU we would
actually be better off paying the tariffs instead of the membership fee.

--
bert

In article om,
lid writes
On 28/04/2017 11:15, tim... wrote:

In the absence of a Trade Deal it will simply apply the already in
existence EU External Tariff to UK imports, as it does to every other
non-EU country

The brexteers don't appear to understand that without a trade deal with
the EU there will be tariffs.
They are already there and will apply.

So May will want a deal and that deal will come with the same sort of
conditions that we already have as a member of the EU.
That is apparently not the position of the EU Trade Commissioner.
The only difference is that we will have no say in what the EU does.

The brexiteers are full of brex****.


--
bert

In article ,
whisky-dave writes
On Friday, 28 April 2017 12:55:31 UTC+1, Capitol wrote:
dennis@home wrote:
On 28/04/2017 11:15, tim... wrote:

In the absence of a Trade Deal it will simply apply the already in
existence EU External Tariff to UK imports, as it does to every other
non-EU country

The brexteers don't appear to understand that without a trade deal with
the EU there will be tariffs.
They are already there and will apply.

So May will want a deal and that deal will come with the same sort of
conditions that we already have as a member of the EU.
The only difference is that we will have no say in what the EU does.

The brexiteers are full of brex****.


Still Remoaning Denise?

Maybe he's one of the new Remoaners, a Re-Remoaner a bit like a
boomerang but with less uses.
You been watching the re-run of Black Adder?
--
bert

In article , tim...
writes
the EU has agreed a deal with Canada,
And by definition so do we. Easily replace EU with UK and off we go.
--
bert

In article , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
tim... wrote:
The brexteers don't appear to understand that without a trade deal
with the EU there will be tariffs.

No, we do understand that

that is why we need/want to arrange a trade deal

But we already had one. Which 'we' didn't like, so left the EU.

what we can't understand is why the other side (pretends it) isn't so
minded because it too could suffer the imposition of tariffs on its
trading with us.

You are hoping the EU will negotiate a special deal with the UK - far
better than any it already has with non EU members? Good luck with that.

The EU Trade Commissioner is quoted as having said they will.
--
bert

In article . com,
lid writes
On 28/04/2017 15:13, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
tim... wrote:
The brexteers don't appear to understand that without a trade deal
with the EU there will be tariffs.

No, we do understand that

that is why we need/want to arrange a trade deal
But we already had one. Which 'we' didn't like, so left the EU.

what we can't understand is why the other side (pretends it) isn't

minded because it too could suffer the imposition of tariffs on its
trading with us.
You are hoping the EU will negotiate a special deal with the UK -
far
better than any it already has with non EU members? Good luck with that.


They actually want one that is better than EU members.

Only if you believe that everything else about the EU is a negative. Now
as a Brexiteer I do believe that but I can't understand why Remoaners
and the EU actually believe it also. Why else would they describe the
free trade bit as a "cherry"
--
bert

In article , charles
writes
In article , Rod Speed
wrote:


"tim..." wrote in message
news


"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...


"tim..." wrote in message
news

"Tim Streater" wrote in message
.. .
In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:

In article , Tim
Streater wrote:
In article , TimW
wrote:

On 22/04/17 15:27, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , TimW
wrote:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C9-A5RRXcAA0ea9.jpg

I'm still waiting for someone to explain why there would be
tariffs.

The single market is a a tarriff-free zone

And tariffs on imports, even if we went WTO, would be under our
control. You seem to have bought into the lie that being WTO would
*automatically* mean tariffs.

Can you really see this country allowing in all imports with no
tariffs at all?

More ****-stirring and making things up, I see. Did I say anything
about "all imports"? No.

From countries which will have imposed a tariff on our exports?

So if they impose tariffs, our tariffs would automatically spring
into life? You're just spouting more Remoaner bull****.


The problem with that line is there's more than one of "them"

We cannot remove tariffs from imports from the EU without also
removing tariffs from imports (of the same thing) from the USA or
China (you can replace remove with impose in that sentence to get
the contra view)

How do we balance this trick if the EU wants to impose tariffs on us,
but the US doesn't? (for the purpose of the discussion, just
pretend that might happen)

Why can the EU selectively impose a tariff on stuff from Britain,

It won't be (doing it selectively)

In the absence of a Trade Deal it will simply apply the already in
existence EU External Tariff to UK imports, as it does to every other
non-EU country

But Britain is free to have any trade deals it likes and do it that way.

Britain is free to try and get any trade deal it likes. trade deals need
agreement of the other country

Which is why talking about hard or soft Brexit as if it were in the
hands of the UK government is utter nonsense. These remoaners do like to
keep contradicting themselves.
--
bert

In article , bert wrote:
In article , charles
writes
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
On Friday, 28 April 2017 16:51:50 UTC+1, charles wrote:
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
On Friday, 28 April 2017 15:14:45 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:
In article , tim...
wrote:
up about us leaving the EU. Basically non of the usual tariffs
and duties etc will apply. Such is their brave new world.

the problem is that there are two different points here

Most leavers who say that "tariffs are optional" are usually
responding to the otf claimed nonsense in the press, that
leaving the EU will impose tariffs that WILL put up prices for
UK consumers, when that is a complete falsehood.

All you can do is think about the most likely scenario. If
anyone thinks the non EU UK will allow in all imports regardless
tariff free, they are totally mad.

Of course they are if they think EU citizens will accept massive
increases in say the cost of whisky or cheddar cheese. I doubt
those in the UK will be very happy if the UK puts a tarrif on say
brie or german cars, but if we do who is likely to loose out most.
Germany because the taffir is 50% and no one in the UK (or very
few) will buy a gernan car at twice the price it was last week,
who will lose out... It'll be Germany NOT the UK as anyoen wantint
to buy a car might go for a non german car that has lower tarriffs

It would be an EU tariff - not exclusively German - and as has been
pointed out earlier it would be a identical tariff on all imported
cars unless we had special agreement with the EU.

So what would be the advantage for the EU to put tarriffs on
anything. ?


you misunderstand. It is the UK which would impose thn tariff - but
they couldn't just do it on German cars - it would apply to all cars
from the EU (France, Italy & Spain immdiately spring to mind) and could
well apply to all cars from whereever.

The cars "from wherever" are already subject to any tariff imposed by
the EU. When we leave we can make our own arrangements with South Korea,
Japan, USA etc.

we can try to make our own arrangements, presumably we'd want the other
country to "Buy British" in return. Do we sell what they want?

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

In article ,
bert wrote:
In article , tim...
writes
the EU has agreed a deal with Canada,
And by definition so do we. Easily replace EU with UK and off we go.

That depends on thn Canadian Government.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

"bert" wrote in message
...
In article , tim...
writes


"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...


"tim..." wrote in message
news

"Tim Streater" wrote in message
.. .
In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:

In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
In article , TimW
wrote:

On 22/04/17 15:27, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , TimW

wrote:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C9-A5RRXcAA0ea9.jpg

I'm still waiting for someone to explain why there would be

The single market is a a tarriff-free zone

And tariffs on imports, even if we went WTO, would be under our
control. You seem to have bought into the lie that being WTO would
*automatically* mean tariffs.

Can you really see this country allowing in all imports with no
tariffs at
all?

More ****-stirring and making things up, I see. Did I say anything
about "all imports"? No.

From countries which will have imposed a tariff on our exports?

So if they impose tariffs, our tariffs would automatically spring into
life? You're just spouting more Remoaner bull****.


The problem with that line is there's more than one of "them"

We cannot remove tariffs from imports from the EU without also removing
tariffs from imports (of the same thing) from the USA or China (you can
replace remove with impose in that sentence to get the contra view)

How do we balance this trick if the EU wants to impose tariffs on us,
but the US doesn't? (for the purpose of the discussion, just pretend
that might happen)

Why can the EU selectively impose a tariff on stuff
from Britain,

It won't be (doing it selectively)

In the absence of a Trade Deal it will simply apply the already in
existence EU External Tariff to UK imports, as it does to every other
non-EU country

And given we are a significant net contributor to the EU we would actually
be better off paying the tariffs instead of the membership fee.

Exporters don't pay tariffs, it's the importers that do.