Having invested in a proper fire I am trying to compare different suppliers
of logs.

Is a "load" normally ~ a ton?

How many 8" logs (all other things being average) would one expect in a load
(roughly, obviously)?

TIA

--
Bob Mannix
(anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not)

Bob Mannix wrote:

Having invested in a proper fire I am trying to compare different suppliers
of logs.

Is a "load" normally ~ a ton?

How many 8" logs (all other things being average) would one expect in a load
(roughly, obviously)?

Well in these parts, you knock on the door of the site office at the
local woods and order either a "load" or a "half load" of logs. A load
being the entire contents of a tipping flat bed transit based lorry.

I would guestimate a full load at being 3 to 4 cu meters of logs. Don't
know how that translates to weight.... Its quite good value however - I
find a half load will last us the whole winter and only costs 25 quid.
(although in our case the log fire is in addition to the central heating
and is only for heating one room)



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
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| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
Bob Mannix wrote:

Having invested in a proper fire I am trying to compare different
suppliers
of logs.

Is a "load" normally ~ a ton?

How many 8" logs (all other things being average) would one expect in a
load
(roughly, obviously)?

Well in these parts, you knock on the door of the site office at the
local woods and order either a "load" or a "half load" of logs. A load
being the entire contents of a tipping flat bed transit based lorry.

I would guestimate a full load at being 3 to 4 cu meters of logs. Don't
know how that translates to weight.... Its quite good value however - I
find a half load will last us the whole winter and only costs 25 quid.
(although in our case the log fire is in addition to the central heating
and is only for heating one room)

Well, thanks for the info. We have the same requirements as you (as in
brackets at the end). I suspect we live in different parts of the country if
a half load is £25 to you :-( unless you live down south and no something I
don't!


--
Bob Mannix
(anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not)

Bob Mannix wrote:

Well, thanks for the info. We have the same requirements as you (as in
brackets at the end). I suspect we live in different parts of the country if
a half load is ?25 to you :-( unless you live down south and no something I
don't!

Yup - down south (east).... in fact a few miles outside Southend so that
ought to be south enough for you ;-)

What sort of prices are you being quoted then?



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
Bob Mannix wrote:

Well, thanks for the info. We have the same requirements as you (as in
brackets at the end). I suspect we live in different parts of the
country if
a half load is ?25 to you :-( unless you live down south and no
something I
don't!

Yup - down south (east).... in fact a few miles outside Southend so that
ought to be south enough for you ;-)

What sort of prices are you being quoted then?


Well, the only actual quote is from the jolly nice place with the managed
woodlands, guaranteed seasoned hardwood, choose your wood even, nice
smelling fircones for kindling for Christmas (and, it has to be said,
excellent customer service) http://www.go-ni.co.uk/firewood/ and that is
£58 a half load (~200 logs). This is a little more than I was hoping to
pay - this is Oxfordshire though. Cheaper sources are likely to be mixtures
of hard and soft wood, variably seasoned I guess, but even so... Needless to
say the cheaper places (I hope) have (so far) failed to get back to me.
Other suppliers are more like 300-350 logs per half load (I think) but
that's probably because they are smaller logs. I await a couple of calls to
be returned!


--
Bob Mannix
(anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not)

On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 17:54:16 -0000, Bob Mannix
wrote:

Well, the only actual quote is from the jolly nice place with the managed
woodlands, guaranteed seasoned hardwood, choose your wood even, nice
smelling fircones for kindling for Christmas (and, it has to be said,
excellent customer service) http://www.go-ni.co.uk/firewood/ and that is
£58 a half load (~200 logs). This is a little more than I was hoping to
pay - this is Oxfordshire though.

Bob,

I used to live in Wytham near Oxford and I got logs from the Young
Farmers. They did a charity thing every year selling wood by the sack (~10
logs) The wood was donated from some estate woodland and the money went to
Sobel House (not the YF.) I can't remember the cost now but it might be
worth contacting the local YF.

Colin
--

Bob Mannix wrote:

Well, the only actual quote is from the jolly nice place with the managed
woodlands, guaranteed seasoned hardwood, choose your wood even, nice
smelling fircones for kindling for Christmas (and, it has to be said,
excellent customer service) http://www.go-ni.co.uk/firewood/ and that is
?58 a half load (~200 logs). This is a little more than I was hoping to
pay - this is Oxfordshire though. Cheaper sources are likely to be mixtures
of hard and soft wood, variably seasoned I guess, but even so... Needless to

I would say the load I got was 90% assorted hardwoods and no pine cones!
This year I noted they have nicely split all the logs into fireplace
sized lumps - in previous years a little axe work was required on the
larger logs


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
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| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 13:39:51 -0000, "Bob Mannix"
wrote:

Having invested in a proper fire I am trying to compare different suppliers
of logs.

Is a "load" normally ~ a ton?

Seldom retail, wholesale tends to be in tonnes and lots of 25tonnes
(green) delivered hardwood ~GBP28/tonne.

How many 8" logs (all other things being average) would one expect in a load
(roughly, obviously)?

It's a bit risky buying by the log, it depends how small they are
split. The chap I work for sell dumpy bags (0.7m3) at GBP30 ex yard,
they weigh about 300kg but about 40% of this is water, with the
notable exception of ash, I know as I put them through the firewood
dryer and re weighed them (plus took a small sample down to oven dry).

In general split hardwood logs jumbled into a container occupy less
than 50% of the space, the rest is air in between. Also, but this last
summer may prove the exception, very little drying takes place in
cordwood after the first few weeks of felling. The bark keeps moisture
in and the moisture takes a while to diffuse out of the ends. Most
firewood merchants store wood in the cord and process it just prior to
delivery.

Weight for weight when dried to similar moisture contents softwood has
the edge on calorific value, however it starts much wetter and is more
bulky.

I still have the A3 fact sheet (4 sides A4) produced by the Forestry
Commission (1985) I could send in exchange for a modest donation to
red cross or medecin sans frontiers to cover postage.

AJH

"Bob Mannix" wrote
| "John Rumm" wrote
| a half load is £25 to you :-( unless you live down south and no
| something I don't!
| What sort of prices are you being quoted then?
| Well, the only actual quote is from the jolly nice place with the managed
| woodlands, guaranteed seasoned hardwood, choose your wood even,

FFS is this for burning on the grate or turning into fruitbowls or banisters
:-)

Owain

"Owain" wrote in message
...
"Bob Mannix" wrote
| "John Rumm" wrote
| a half load is £25 to you :-( unless you live down south and no
| something I don't!
| What sort of prices are you being quoted then?
| Well, the only actual quote is from the jolly nice place with the
managed
| woodlands, guaranteed seasoned hardwood, choose your wood even,

FFS is this for burning on the grate or turning into fruitbowls or
banisters
:-)


Burning on the grate, I'm afraid! I had a supplier recommended as well and
he turned out to be £52 a half load so it looks like the price is determined
by the area. I have ordered from him. Fortunately it's not our main form of
heating! I can always go somewhere else next time.

Thanks for all the replies

"Andrew Heggie" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 13:39:51 -0000, "Bob Mannix"
wrote:

Having invested in a proper fire I am trying to compare different
suppliers
of logs.

Is a "load" normally ~ a ton?

snip

I still have the A3 fact sheet (4 sides A4) produced by the Forestry
Commission (1985) I could send in exchange for a modest donation to
red cross or medecin sans frontiers to cover postage.

I'll probably be OK thanks, but I'll stick a couple of quid in in exchange
for your words next time I see a collecting box.

Bob Mannix

On Thu, 27 Nov 2003 09:52:52 -0000, "Bob Mannix"
wrote:

I still have the A3 fact sheet (4 sides A4) produced by the Forestry
Commission (1985) I could send in exchange for a modest donation to
red cross or medecin sans frontiers to cover postage.

I'll probably be OK thanks, but I'll stick a couple of quid in in exchange
for your words next time I see a collecting box.

That's generosity, if all my postings on usenet were so rewarded......

As I see you are using an open grate watch out for larch and sweet
chestnut in particular, they spit embers into the room, as do a lot of
conifers to some extent.

Hardwoods to avoid for poor burning (mostly simply high moisture
content) poplar, willow, elm, holm oak and turkey oak.

When I started selling firewood I was determined to give good value
for money, so I carefully worked out the likely heating value and
pitched my price to be equivalent to coal. I could never understand
why people continued to buy from other merchants who offered worse
value. It took me a while to realise it was "luxury" being sold and
people bought on the perceived price of "a load". My logs were dry,
many people used coal as the base with logs on to, dry logs burned too
fast and didn't sizzle.

I suspect in a centrally heated house the chimney effect of the open
fire evacuates more heat from the house than it contributes.

AJH

Andrew wrote:

On Thu, 27 Nov 2003 09:52:52 -0000, "Bob Mannix"
wrote:


I still have the A3 fact sheet (4 sides A4) produced by the Forestry
Commission (1985) I could send in exchange for a modest donation to
red cross or medecin sans frontiers to cover postage.

I'll probably be OK thanks, but I'll stick a couple of quid in in exchange
for your words next time I see a collecting box.


That's generosity, if all my postings on usenet were so rewarded......

As I see you are using an open grate watch out for larch and sweet
chestnut in particular, they spit embers into the room, as do a lot of
conifers to some extent.


Mmm. Willow seems a bad spitter as well.



Hardwoods to avoid for poor burning (mostly simply high moisture
content) poplar, willow, elm, holm oak and turkey oak.


I am finding blackthon quite poor unless got up to really high temperatures.



When I started selling firewood I was determined to give good value
for money, so I carefully worked out the likely heating value and
pitched my price to be equivalent to coal. I could never understand
why people continued to buy from other merchants who offered worse
value. It took me a while to realise it was "luxury" being sold and
people bought on the perceived price of "a load". My logs were dry,
many people used coal as the base with logs on to, dry logs burned too
fast and didn't sizzle.



Yes, but things are changing a bit now - around here we use wood fires
as very much serious heat sources, although central heating is available
as well.


I suspect in a centrally heated house the chimney effect of the open
fire evacuates more heat from the house than it contributes.



No, I don't find that. Particularly in my house where underfloor vents
feed the fire directly with icy cold air for burning.

I would say that having the open fire both slightly ventilates the room
and draws out hot steamy air, and adds between 3 and 5Kw to the heating
of the room at full crack.



AJH

Andrew wrote:
snip

When I started selling firewood I was determined to give good value
for money, so I carefully worked out the likely heating value and
pitched my price to be equivalent to coal. I could never understand
why people continued to buy from other merchants who offered worse
value. It took me a while to realise it was "luxury" being sold and
people bought on the perceived price of "a load". My logs were dry,
many people used coal as the base with logs on to, dry logs burned too
fast and didn't sizzle.

snip

AJH


Andrew, do you still sell firewood and where in the country are you?

N

Andrew wrote:

Hardwoods to avoid for poor burning (mostly simply high moisture
content) poplar, willow, elm, holm oak and turkey oak.

....but if well dried/seasoned are OK. We have been burning lots of aspen
(=poplar) over the past couple of years simply because we had some large
aspens felled. Now, after two years or so and especially after this
years hot dry summer, it burns well.

--
Chris Green )

In article ,
Andrew Heggie wrote:

Hardwoods to avoid for poor burning (mostly simply high moisture
content) poplar, willow, elm, holm oak and turkey oak.

I cut down a few large willow trees (not weeping
willow) a few years ago and they seem to have seasoned
into quite an acceptable wood for the woodburner.
Weeping willow seasons ok to a low moisture, but feels
quite light, and without much calorific value.

--
Tony Williams.

Hardwoods to avoid for poor burning (mostly simply high moisture
content) poplar, willow, elm, holm oak and turkey oak.

Would you consider willow a hard wood ? I agree with the high moisture content
but once dried willow burns well. IMO hawthorn and apple are best for burning
but I have had a load of oak drying out all summer and it is burning
fantastically. shame I only have 2 weeks supply left then out with saw to chop
a load of elder. By the way has any one ever burnt conker ?

Hardwoods to avoid for poor burning (mostly simply high moisture
content) poplar, willow, elm, holm oak and turkey oak.



One of the best woods we have ever burnt was ELM !!
This was dry though, but burnt long and hot with little ash.

Are these to be avoided woods bad only when wet ?
and which are the good ones then when wet / recently cut and logged ?

Nick

On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 08:25:42 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:


I am finding blackthon quite poor unless got up to really high temperatures.

It's a minor species so I do not have a lot of experience with it. It
is often of small dimension and thus not split. Round logs take a bit
more for the fire to take a hold (vertices heat up quickly to catch
fire).



I suspect in a centrally heated house the chimney effect of the open
fire evacuates more heat from the house than it contributes.

No, I don't find that. Particularly in my house where underfloor vents
feed the fire directly with icy cold air for burning.

I would say that having the open fire both slightly ventilates the room
and draws out hot steamy air, and adds between 3 and 5Kw to the heating
of the room at full crack.

If you're happy with this I'm not tempted to dissuade you. It would
make an interesting maths problem involving the temperature difference
between room, flue gases and outside, mass flow of combustion
products, draught of chimbly and radiant energy through about pi
steradian?? from the hearth...

Still, I'm no numbersmith

AJH

On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 10:42:37 +0000, Nicknoxx
wrote:


Andrew, do you still sell firewood and where in the country are you?

Yup, some days I lob 58 tonnes onto the transport ;-)

NW Surrey

AJH

On 28 Nov 2003 12:52:39 GMT, wrote:

Andrew wrote:

Hardwoods to avoid for poor burning (mostly simply high moisture
content) poplar, willow, elm, holm oak and turkey oak.

...but if well dried/seasoned are OK.

Yes, I pointed out earlier in the thread there is not much to choose
between logs of the same moisture content, though the bulk can be
pertinent. Certain species are slower to dry though, try taking cut
and split oak and sycamore into a dry room and note the rate of weight
loss.

Matches are made from aspen, but wax is added to sustain combustion
and one, I believe the UK's biggest, supplier of kindling, uses oven
dried poplar

AJH

On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 13:45:06 +0000 (GMT), Tony Williams
wrote:

I cut down a few large willow trees (not weeping
willow) a few years ago and they seem to have seasoned
into quite an acceptable wood for the woodburner.
Weeping willow seasons ok to a low moisture, but feels
quite light, and without much calorific value.

Yes it has a high initial moisture content and low oven dry bulk
density. Hybrids can be very high yielding in trials of arable short
rotation coppice, transport costs are a hindrance with water and
density considerations.

AJH

On 28 Nov 2003 17:32:58 GMT, (Wheelbarrowbob)
wrote:

Hardwoods to avoid for poor burning (mostly simply high moisture
content) poplar, willow, elm, holm oak and turkey oak.

Would you consider willow a hard wood ?
Not a hard wood but a hardwood ;-) the trade differentiates between
softwood and hardwood, more properly conifer or broadleaved. Willow
and poplar are hardwoods/broadleaves but of low strength.

but I have had a load of oak drying out all summer and it is burning
fantastically.

Was it drying as cordwood or split and stacked?


shame I only have 2 weeks supply left then out with saw to chop
a load of elder.

Elder is hardly a wood, did you mean alder?


By the way has any one ever burnt conker ?

This is also a disappointing wood to burn, I have not tested it for
green moisture content. Along with birch this is a wood that can
actually rot within it's bark if stored outside as roundwood.

AJH

On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 18:32:14 -0000, "Nick" wrote:

Hardwoods to avoid for poor burning (mostly simply high moisture
content) poplar, willow, elm, holm oak and turkey oak.



One of the best woods we have ever burnt was ELM !!
This was dry though, but burnt long and hot with little ash.

Yes, since the 70s a lot of elm has been available as dead standing
wood, also the beetle forms galleries under the bark which bird
subsequently knock off in their searches, so the pole desiccates
standing. Green elm has a 140% water content dwb (IIRC).

Are these to be avoided woods bad only when wet ?

Yes. You can make a fairly good estimate of the heating value of wood
by first subtracting the ash weight then multiplying the remaining dry
wood weight by 18MJ and subtracting the water weight times 2.7MJ (this
makes fairly broad assumptions about flue temperature).

To refine this a bit you need to treat the proportions of lignin,
cellulose and hemicellulose separately, lignin has the highest
calorific value and forms a larger portion of conifer wood.

and which are the good ones then when wet / recently cut and logged ?

Ash by a long margin then probably birch and sycamore.

AJH

Tony Williams wrote:

In article ,
Andrew Heggie wrote:


Hardwoods to avoid for poor burning (mostly simply high moisture
content) poplar, willow, elm, holm oak and turkey oak.


I cut down a few large willow trees (not weeping
willow) a few years ago and they seem to have seasoned
into quite an acceptable wood for the woodburner.
Weeping willow seasons ok to a low moisture, but feels
quite light, and without much calorific value.



Willow is apparently the fastest way to acumulate combustible biomass.
What it lacks in density it more than makes up in speed of growth.

ISTR from a county show some years back that you can actually get
heating plants designed to burn relatively wet willow cleanly..

...in case anyone is faintly interested.

Nick wrote:

Hardwoods to avoid for poor burning (mostly simply high moisture

content) poplar, willow, elm, holm oak and turkey oak.



One of the best woods we have ever burnt was ELM !!
This was dry though, but burnt long and hot with little ash.

Are these to be avoided woods bad only when wet ?
and which are the good ones then when wet / recently cut and logged ?



Well, ash - good it seems.
Hawthorn...not bad.
Blackthorn/damson/wild cherry/all fruit trees - slow to catch and slow
to burn, makes great charcoal.
Oak - thats OK, but spits even when dry sometimes
Poplar? Mmm. Think its good. Haven't burnt any for some time tho.
Beech. Ditto. None around here.
Leylandii - fantabulous stuff, but somehat TOO inflammable.
Willow? Too wet to burn green easily, and may spit, but dries fast.
Elm? what elm? :-)
Elder. Good kindling once dried a bit.
Sycamore. Mmm. Think its dense and slow burning. good.
Field Maple. See sycamore. Very good.
That's pretty much all I have in the woodpile right now.
All basically burns once the fire is hot enough.


Nick

Andrew wrote:

On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 08:25:42 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:


I am finding blackthon quite poor unless got up to really high temperatures.


It's a minor species so I do not have a lot of experience with it. It
is often of small dimension and thus not split. Round logs take a bit
more for the fire to take a hold (vertices heat up quickly to catch
fire).


I suspect in a centrally heated house the chimney effect of the open
fire evacuates more heat from the house than it contributes.


No, I don't find that. Particularly in my house where underfloor vents
feed the fire directly with icy cold air for burning.

I would say that having the open fire both slightly ventilates the room
and draws out hot steamy air, and adds between 3 and 5Kw to the heating
of the room at full crack.


If you're happy with this I'm not tempted to dissuade you. It would
make an interesting maths problem involving the temperature difference
between room, flue gases and outside, mass flow of combustion
products, draught of chimbly and radiant energy through about pi
steradian?? from the hearth...



Actually its a lot easier. Run the CH at a given setting, and light the
fire. Room gets warmer. QED.

Prat.


Still, I'm no numbersmith

AJH

Andrew wrote:


Matches are made from aspen, but wax is added to sustain combustion
and one, I believe the UK's biggest, supplier of kindling, uses oven
dried poplar



Aspen is poplar.


AJH

Andrew wrote:

On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 18:32:14 -0000, "Nick" wrote:


Hardwoods to avoid for poor burning (mostly simply high moisture

content) poplar, willow, elm, holm oak and turkey oak.


One of the best woods we have ever burnt was ELM !!
This was dry though, but burnt long and hot with little ash.


Yes, since the 70s a lot of elm has been available as dead standing
wood, also the beetle forms galleries under the bark which bird
subsequently knock off in their searches, so the pole desiccates
standing. Green elm has a 140% water content dwb (IIRC).


I have seen no elm worth burning standing since the 70's. Maxium height
before infestation kills is usually less than 30 ft, and that usually
corresponds to a bole of no more than 6" diameter.



and which are the good ones then when wet / recently cut and logged ?


Ash by a long margin then probably birch and sycamore.


I'll add field maple to that, otherwise basically that is my impression
from here as well, tho we have very little birch.


AJH

I have never paid cash for firewood, as its amazing how much you can collect from various places. The quality depends on how fully you are.
Not paying of cource means you have to work to collect it, so you fetch and carry & chop and dry and carry - all of which is joyy good exercise.
I will chop peoples trees down for free, take the big logs and put the small stuff in a skip they provide.

I have recently discovered a saw mill that dumps the stuff next to the road for you to take, of cource is still wet, and it needs cutting but its cheep

Rick


On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 13:39:51 -0000, "Bob Mannix" wrote:
Having invested in a proper fire I am trying to compare different suppliers
of logs.

Is a "load" normally ~ a ton?

How many 8" logs (all other things being average) would one expect in a load
(roughly, obviously)?

TIA

--
Bob Mannix
(anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not)

Ash by a long margin then probably birch and sycamore.

And lime can be burnt green

Andrew wrote:
standing. Green elm has a 140% water content dwb (IIRC).

???? can anyone explain that?

--
Chris Green )

On 29 Nov 2003 22:13:26 GMT, wrote:

Andrew wrote:
standing. Green elm has a 140% water content dwb (IIRC).

???? can anyone explain that?

It was from memory so I did not refer it back to wet weight basis. The
dry weight basis refers the water content to the oven dry weight of
the wood so if the oven dry weight is 1kg the water content is 1.4kg
and the total weight is 2.4kg. As a wet weight basis percentage this
means the mc would be 1.4/2.4=58.3% hic :-)

AJH

Andrew wrote:
On 29 Nov 2003 22:13:26 GMT, wrote:

Andrew wrote:
standing. Green elm has a 140% water content dwb (IIRC).

???? can anyone explain that?

It was from memory so I did not refer it back to wet weight basis. The
dry weight basis refers the water content to the oven dry weight of
the wood so if the oven dry weight is 1kg the water content is 1.4kg
and the total weight is 2.4kg. As a wet weight basis percentage this
means the mc would be 1.4/2.4=58.3% hic :-)

OK, makes sense, though it's a confusing use of a percentage.

--
Chris Green )

"Bob Mannix" wrote:

Hello Bob

BM| Having invested in a proper fire I am trying to compare
BM| different suppliers of logs.
BM| Is a "load" normally ~ a ton?

Depends on the size of vehicle. It's like a spoonful - the actual
quantity depends on the size of the spoon and whether it's heaped.

BM| How many 8" logs (all other things being average) would one
BM| expect in a load (roughly, obviously)?

What you get from that supplier.

It's all very vague I'm afraid. The weight depends on how wet they
are, how many there are, what sort of wood and so on. The quantity
depends on the supplier and local demand. Cowboys will stack the logs
to take up more space, so look more impressive. Good guys will stack
the logs to take up less space. The middle ground guys just check 'em
in and let 'em fall.

As to what vehicle - a Hilux is generic, expect around half a ton
(wheelarches inside remember, and if it's panelled you'll lose a lot
of logs). Transits more, usually a tonne (ish).

Sometimes hard to find a decent, honest and reliable supplier - so
most folks hang onto them when they do.

--
Simon Avery, Dartmoor, UK
uk.d-i-y FAQ: http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/