No it won't catch on until its longer lived. It needs batteries to be more
robust and long lived.

I often wonder if solar panels have been accelerated life tested? I know
they are used on spacecraft, but one has to assume these are pretty
ruggedised and reliable devices, as you won't get many service engineers out
there.

Brian

--
From the Sofa of Brian Gaff Reply address is active
"alan_m" wrote in message
...
On 02/05/2015 10:49, Lobster wrote:


Thoughts? Shall I go and buy a PowerWall then?!


Isn't it just conventional battery technology packaged in a different way?
The cost effectiveness will depend on the initial cost of the device (£3K)
and how long before you have to replace it (a 1000 charge/discharge cycles
in 3 years?)

I see no quoted figures for efficiency.

The success of the project seems to be dependant on _Government_ subsidies
for green energy and the falling price of Lithium. In the UK there are no
Government subsidies - just the 15% green/social tax on all our
gas/electricity bills.


--
mailto: news {at} admac {dot] myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
On 03/05/15 08:37, wrote:
On Sat, 02 May 2015 23:25:36 +0100 (BST), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

On Sat, 2 May 2015 15:29:26 +0100, Chris French wrote:

There are some at the local Park and Ride stop. And I've seen them
around in a few other car parks and other places.

They are popping up, I think I've seen one actually being used. Once.


Trouble is stopping for a hour every 100 miles instead of 10 mins
every 550+ isn't very convenient.

A Tesla supercharger will charge the 85kWh model in 75 minutes to 100%
(about 300 miles of range), 80% in 40mins and 170 miles worth in 30 mins
according to:

http://www.teslamotors.com/en_GB/supercharger

Now, at least the way I drive, after 170 miles, I rather find a 30 min
break with a coffee and a good walk around to be a necessity.

I don’t.

Yes, you have to plan your journey around fuel stops,

I don’t with a normal car.

but it's not a bad effort for what you can do NOW in GB and a fair slice
of northern europe. So that's only going to get better.

But is nowhere near as convenient as with a normal car.

And I'm not a Tesla fanboi

You are actually.

(ie I don't have one and couldn't afford one) but I honestly think they
are with merit.

You're wrong.

Hmm, but of course if it was cold, presumably the meals would need to be
more frequent as to heat the car would use more electricity. Of course you
could have a camping heater and a bottle of gas with you, just don't tell
the green police!

Brian

--
From the Sofa of Brian Gaff Reply address is active
"Davey" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 3 May 2015 10:51:49 +0100
"tim....." wrote:

When stopped at a service area in Germany in March, I noticed an
area specifically designated for electric cars that needed
recharging. Each parking spot had a chargepoint provided. Recharge
the car, go get a meal, recharge yourself.

and in 2 hours time rinse and repeat

and in another 2 hour rinse and repeat

just how many meals a day are drivers of electric cars supposed to
eat?

tim

No idea, I don't drive one. I just saw the chargepoints. But German
rest areas tend to have much better food than the M1 does, so it would
be a better experience.

--
Davey.

"Chris French" wrote in message
...
In message , Tricky
Dicky writes
Cannot see electric cars taking off. Just picture streets with hundreds of
charging leads strewn across pavements for those unfortunates who do not
have a driveway and park on the street.

Yes it is a problem if you don't have some sort of off street parking near
a power source. however, I'd guess the majority of houses do. Just cos
some people can't have something, doesn't mean that other people can't.

It's illegal to trail a cable across a public pavement.

"Simon Brown" wrote in message
...


"Tricky Dicky" wrote in message
...
Cannot see electric cars taking off.

Me neither, essentially because they have to
be much more expensive than conventional
cars because of the cost of the battery.

But then the rest of it is much cheaper.
Battery prices are falling.

On 03/05/2015 10:33, charles wrote:
harryagain wrote
How often do you drive 100 miles?
at least once a month and twice a year it's 400.

Ah well, for 14 occasions a year, best have a means of transport that
requires (what will be even more) a costly, rare fuel.

Wild out there idea, how about an electric car for normal
commuting,popping into town WHY; and hiring a petrol car for those
occasions that require the longer range?

On 02/05/2015 23:39, Chris French wrote:
In message , alan_m
writes
On 02/05/2015 10:49, Lobster wrote:



In essence yes, though the batteries aren't the same as in the cars
apparently, the chemistry has been tweaked to suit this application (the
car batteries are more suited to lots of cycling).

Are not these batteries going to be fully deep cycled at least once a day?


There is a 10 year battery warranty apparently

For the original full performance or for some arbitrary performance such
as 30/50% capacity at the end of 10 years? Is it a bit like a car
warranty where the brake and clutch parts may be guaranteed against
manufacturing defects but if you use your car normally they become fair
wear and tear items?


I guess they are aiming for cheaper batteries in the future, Tesla are
building a big factory, what they call a Gigafctory in Nevada to produce
batteries. Which they claim will reduce the cost by 30%

So the price comes down to 2K dollars, excluding installation costs. At
what price point does solar again become free?

Yes, I do realise that green doesn't mean free. It's about saving the
planet using a magic bucket of everlasting money raised by normal and
stealth taxation.


Consumer applications in the uk are a bit limited I think. I imagine the
early customers will be people with solar systems (which I imagine makes
more sense in California or where ever)

The Californian model works for a lot of these technologies but possible
not transferable to colder climates - with the same
performances/efficiencies.


--
mailto: news {at} admac {dot] myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

"Simon Brown" wrote in message
...


"Davey" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 03 May 2015 15:10:31 +0100
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 03/05/15 13:58, Huge wrote:
On 2015-05-03, Tim Streater wrote:

I deduce you drive like a manioc.

He drives like a root vegetable?


Tapioca.

Good name for an electric car really. The Tesla Tapioca!



I think that's what we called 'frogspawn' at school lunches. So, the
Tesla Frogspawn. Great.

Not a patch on the Pajero which means ****** in one language.

Didn't sell too well in that area for some reason.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_Pajero
There was almost a Rolls Royce Silver Mist.
'Til someone told them that Mist is German for ****

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 03/05/15 11:05, tim..... wrote:

there's something seriously wrong with the technology if the
manufacturing cost is such a large part of the total bill

I looked at the above. Then I looked again.

Then I looked again and gasped.

How could anyone not understand that manufacturing cost should be - if we
discount distribution sales and marketing costs - 100% of the cost of a
product?

Hum

so I haven't spend the last 30 years working as a design engineer for
(similar) products, because the costs of my time forms no part of the cost
of the product that the company makes

I wonder whose been paying my wages then?

tim

"Simon Brown" wrote in message
...


"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
On 03/05/15 12:36, Simon Brown wrote:

Yes, you claimed 'they are with merit', that is wrong.

******** it is.

I just listed the merits.

Claimed them, actually.

You can go places,

You can with conventional cars too, far more
places much more conveniently in fact.

they are by all accounts a
very fun drive (judging by all the vids on Youtube).

If you don’t mind twiddling your thumbs for an hour
every 30 miles if you can even find a recharge point
if you drive them like that.

And they are quiet
and clean at the point of use.

Yes, but that doesn’t make up for the much less convenient recharging.

And the fact about having to plan
refuelling is going to lessen in fairly short order.

I don’t believe that, essentially because I don’t believe
it will ever sell enough of them to see that happen, for
the same reason you don’t have one, the price.

I want to rent one
for a couple of days, perhaps in America next year, just for giggles.
(Couldn't afford to rent for longer!).

Being "hideously expensive" does not mean they don't have merit.

The trouble is the only real merit they actually have is being
quiet and clean at point of use and that does not make up for
the massive downsides with charging and the need to very
carefully plan where to charge is and twiddling your thumbs
while that happens.

Yes if you only use it for a relatively short commute to work
and let it charge while you work and sleep it is quite viable,
but insanely expensive. And that is why it will never fly and
will see them go broke quite quickly.

The upside is that of giving you several more years life.
And a healthier life.

Who wants a car that makes a farting noise all the time?

On 03/05/15 11:43, Simon Brown wrote:

Now, at least the way I drive, after 170 miles, I rather find a 30 min
break with a coffee and a good walk around to be a necessity.

I don’t.

Bully for you - most organisations (including the AA) recommend a 15
break every 2 hours. Making that a 30 min break is not pushing the
envelope too far.

Yes, you have to plan your journey around fuel stops,

I don’t with a normal car.

but it's not a bad effort for what you can do NOW in GB and a fair
slice of northern europe. So that's only going to get better.

But is nowhere near as convenient as with a normal car.



And I'm not a Tesla fanboi

You are actually.

(ie I don't have one and couldn't afford one) but I honestly think
they are with merit.

You're wrong.

Nope.

Listen up - I am NOT claiming everyone will be happy with a Tesla. What
I AM claiming is that NOW, as in right now, not "in the near future",
there's an electric car that is fast and viable with some caveats on
planning fuel stops.

The latter can only get better as more superchargers are installed.

And there are people for whom a car is undesireable even now (eg I'd
rather take the train to Scotland and get some work done on the train
than drive for an entire day).

So at no point am I claiming this is the car for everyone now (obviously
not, it's sodding expensive). What I am claiming is it is a car and not
just a toy and it's on a curve where the negatives will lessen.

On 03/05/2015 10:19, Tim Streater wrote:


Now, at least the way I drive, after 170 miles, I rather find a 30 min
break with a coffee and a good walk around to be a necessity.

Are you one of these people who drives on the brakes, and sits 3
microns behind the car in front at all speeds?


Uses the battery to power the big magnet at the front?

"Capitol" wrote in message
o.uk...
Tim Watts wrote:
On 03/05/15 08:37, wrote:
On Sat, 02 May 2015 23:25:36 +0100 (BST), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

On Sat, 2 May 2015 15:29:26 +0100, Chris French wrote:

There are some at the local Park and Ride stop. And I've seen them
around in a few other car parks and other places.

They are popping up, I think I've seen one actually being used. Once.


Trouble is stopping for a hour every 100 miles instead of 10 mins
every 550+ isn't very convenient.

A Tesla supercharger will charge the 85kWh model in 75 minutes to 100%
(about 300 miles of range), 80% in 40mins and 170 miles worth in 30 mins
according to:

http://www.teslamotors.com/en_GB/supercharger

Now, at least the way I drive, after 170 miles, I rather find a 30 min
break with a coffee and a good walk around to be a necessity.


You need a Dodge Intrepid, the only car I've driven which made 14 hour
journeys uncrippling.

Nope. I did that in both a VW beetle and a Golf.

Tim Watts wrote:
On 03/05/15 10:39, Capitol wrote:
Dodge Intrepid

I shall bear that in mind when I visit America next year...

How so, BTW? Leg room, handling or what?

Sadly, discontinued now. Had one for 15 years, 33mpg at 70mph,18mpg
around town. Handling questionable, a freeway car. Genuine 6 seater.
Very reliable with the 3.3 engine, not so with the 2.7. The 3.5 was
bearable reliability and highest performance.

"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
On 03/05/15 10:51, tim..... wrote:

"Davey" wrote in message
...

When stopped at a service area in Germany in March, I noticed an area
specifically designated for electric cars that needed recharging. Each
parking spot had a chargepoint provided. Recharge the car, go get a
meal, recharge yourself.

and in 2 hours time rinse and repeat

and in another 2 hour rinse and repeat

just how many meals a day are drivers of electric cars supposed to eat?

Drive 2.5-3 hours. Take 30 min break.

No thanks.

Seems perfectly reasonable...

I don’t do anything like that.

On 03/05/15 11:55, tim..... wrote:

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 03/05/15 11:05, tim..... wrote:

there's something seriously wrong with the technology if the
manufacturing cost is such a large part of the total bill

I looked at the above. Then I looked again.

Then I looked again and gasped.

How could anyone not understand that manufacturing cost should be - if
we discount distribution sales and marketing costs - 100% of the cost
of a product?

Hum

so I haven't spend the last 30 years working as a design engineer for
(similar) products, because the costs of my time forms no part of the
cost of the product that the company makes

I wonder whose been paying my wages then?


there are two answers to this:

1/. Design is part of the cost of production

2/. In a volume product R & D costs are so small as to be ignored.

tim





--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
On 03/05/15 11:43, Simon Brown wrote:

Now, at least the way I drive, after 170 miles, I rather find a 30 min
break with a coffee and a good walk around to be a necessity.

I don’t.

Bully for you - most organisations (including the AA) recommend a 15 break
every 2 hours.

I don’t care, I don’t need anything like that.

Making that a 30 min break is not pushing the
envelope too far.

Yes, you have to plan your journey around fuel stops,

I don’t with a normal car.

but it's not a bad effort for what you can do NOW in GB and a fair
slice of northern europe. So that's only going to get better.

But is nowhere near as convenient as with a normal car.



And I'm not a Tesla fanboi

You are actually.

(ie I don't have one and couldn't afford one) but I honestly think
they are with merit.

You're wrong.

Nope.

Yep.

Listen up - I am NOT claiming everyone will be happy with a Tesla.

Yes, you claimed 'they are with merit', that is wrong.

What I AM claiming is that NOW, as in right now, not "in the near future",
there's an electric car that is fast and viable with some caveats on
planning fuel stops.

With a price that even a fan-boi like you can't afford.

The latter can only get better as more superchargers are installed.

The problem has nothing to do with superchargers, the problem is the price.

And there are people for whom a car is undesireable even now (eg I'd
rather take the train to Scotland and get some work done on the train than
drive for an entire day).

So at no point am I claiming this is the car for everyone now (obviously
not, it's sodding expensive). What I am claiming is it is a car and not
just a toy and it's on a curve where the negatives will lessen.

But they will never be competitive with conventional cars, you watch.

In article ,
soup wrote:
On 03/05/2015 10:33, charles wrote:
harryagain wrote
How often do you drive 100 miles?
at least once a month and twice a year it's 400.

Ah well, for 14 occasions a year, best have a means of transport that
requires (what will be even more) a costly, rare fuel.

Wild out there idea, how about an electric car for normal
commuting,popping into town WHY; and hiring a petrol car for those
occasions that require the longer range?

can I get my harp into any of the current electric cars?

--
From KT24 in Surrey

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

On 02/05/2015 12:00, Davey wrote:
On Sat, 02 May 2015 10:58:58 +0100
Nightjar "cpb"@ insert my surname here.me.uk wrote:

On 02/05/2015 10:49, Lobster wrote:
This gadget made the main headline of The Times today - here's a
non- paywalled-version from the Mail:

http://tinyurl.com/l3hlslv (or
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencete...la-set-reveal-
home-battery-Elon-Musk-unveil-power-pack-tonight-slash-electricity-
bills.html)

Quite surprised never to have heard of this before, especially
(AFAICS) in this ng.

Thoughts? Shall I go and buy a PowerWall then?!

If everybody starts storing electricity at a cheaper night rate, the
night rate won't stay cheap for long. However, it might provide a
useful standby supply when we start to run out of power because we
haven't been building nukes fast enough.


Now, if only somebody can come up with a domestic-sized nuclear power
generator, they might be on to something! What do they use for those
long-range satellites, like Voyager?


Actually the Soviets did have compact fission reactors in space, for
their ship-hunting radar satellites. These used highly enriched Uranium,
if not actually weapons grade then probably somewhere close.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosmos_954

The Voyagers just relied on *heat* from Pu 238, converted to electricity
by thermoelectric generators

https://www.google.co.uk/#q=power+source+of+voyager

On 03/05/2015 11:37, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 03/05/15 11:08, tim..... wrote:

"Roger Mills" wrote in message
...
On 02/05/2015 11:13, Bob Minchin wrote:


There are better ways of storing/using excess solar power by heating
water especially if you are already using electric water heating.


But it's not storing it in the sense of being able to convert it back
to usable electricity easily and efficiently - so it doesn't compare
with a battery and inverter.

and it would take a pretty big tank to use the summer sunshine to heat
water for my winter heating :-)


I did the calcs on that actually. It really isn't as big as you might
think.

A tank of hot water the size of a house, underneath it is probably enough


In much the same way that some big country houses had an "ice-house"
which kept them in cold gin and tonics through the summer.

In message , soup
writes
On 03/05/2015 10:33, charles wrote:
harryagain wrote
How often do you drive 100 miles?
at least once a month and twice a year it's 400.

Ah well, for 14 occasions a year, best have a means of transport that
requires (what will be even more) a costly, rare fuel.

at this point elec cars are still an expensive purchase compared to the
equivalent combustion engine car. (not really sure where the break even
point with lower running costs and maintence is though)
Wild out there idea, how about an electric car for normal
commuting,popping into town WHY;

I don't think Dave 'just pops' anywhere much :-)

and hiring a petrol car for those occasions that require the longer
range?

Depending on where you live, that might be an option, when I lived in
London I didn't own a car and hired one when I wanted one for out of tow
journeys. but that was easy as hire places were ten a penny and easy to
get to. I's hazard that Dave's nearest hire place is maybe 20 miles away
maybe? A lot depends on how easy the hire process is I guess

and you still have the situation where you have to purchase a more
expensive elec car, and then hire another one for longer journeys, and
it can still be inconvenient.

--
Chris French

"newshound" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 03/05/2015 11:37, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 03/05/15 11:08, tim..... wrote:

"Roger Mills" wrote in message
...
On 02/05/2015 11:13, Bob Minchin wrote:


There are better ways of storing/using excess solar power by heating
water especially if you are already using electric water heating.


But it's not storing it in the sense of being able to convert it back
to usable electricity easily and efficiently - so it doesn't compare
with a battery and inverter.

and it would take a pretty big tank to use the summer sunshine to heat
water for my winter heating :-)


I did the calcs on that actually. It really isn't as big as you might
think.

A tank of hot water the size of a house, underneath it is probably enough


In much the same way that some big country houses had an "ice-house" which
kept them in cold gin and tonics through the summer.

Nothing like it actually. You need to store a hell of a lot more joules
to heat the house through the winter than to keep the drinks cool in summer.

In message , Tim Watts
writes
On 03/05/15 10:51, tim..... wrote:

"Davey" wrote in message
...

When stopped at a service area in Germany in March, I noticed an area
specifically designated for electric cars that needed recharging. Each
parking spot had a chargepoint provided. Recharge the car, go get a
meal, recharge yourself.

and in 2 hours time rinse and repeat

and in another 2 hour rinse and repeat

just how many meals a day are drivers of electric cars supposed to eat?

Drive 2.5-3 hours. Take 30 min break. Seems perfectly reasonable...

Yeah, but thee is a difference between choosing to take a break and
having to take a break. Whilst maybe doable, I don't see that anyone but
someone who is a bit of an enthusiast for an elec car wanting to do
that. I am someone who tends to like to take regular breaks when
driving, but nI don't think I'd want that restriction

And most elec cars don't have that sort of range. Things like the
Nisssan leaf you are talking maybe 100 miles as best
--
Chris French

On Sun, 03 May 2015 10:16:35 +0100, Tim Watts wrote:

Trouble is stopping for a hour every 100 miles instead of 10 mins
every 550+ isn't very convenient.

A Tesla supercharger will charge the 85kWh model in 75 minutes to 100%
(about 300 miles of range), 80% in 40mins and 170 miles worth in 30 mins
according to:

http://www.teslamotors.com/en_GB/supercharger

Huston, we have a problem. Nearest charger is Leeds 100+ miles away
or Edinburgh 150 miles+ and only 20 in the UK don't make eye larf...
Can a Tesla charge from the more widespread genric charge points and
if so how long does that take for what range?

Now, at least the way I drive, after 170 miles, I rather find a 30 min
break with a coffee and a good walk around to be a necessity.

Perhaps one ought to chill out a bit more when driving? Having said
that it probably depends when and where you are driving. Went to
Preston Easter Monday, that wasn't a pleasant drive particulary south
of Lancaster. The number of drivers on the M6 who hadn't a clue how
to drive on motorways, 70 mph less than two car lengths apart, lane 2
hogging (I set the cruise just over 60, so either illegally under
take or have to go out to lane 3 and back), the "magic indicator"
either from incoming slip roads or lane changing. I go further south
than Preston quite often and it's never as bad as it was Easter
Monday. Occasionally busy with three lanes full all at 60 to 70 but
well spaced and no magic indicators.

Having said that 170 miles is anything from 3 to 6 hours behind the
wheel depending on the roads. I'd probably need a pee and possibly a
coffee and bun but that doesn't take 30 mins. Also that 30 mins is
presumably marketing speak and doesn't include the time to
connect/disconnect, authorisation, payment (free in the US but are
they free over here?)

Yes, you have to plan your journey around fuel stops,

But long fuel stops and if you are third in the queue with the others
taking a full charge (1 1/4 hours) not just a top up any schedule of
getting to your destination on time goes out the window.

Had a tediously slow diesel pump yesterday. I'd guesstimate 0.1 l/sec
but that means 13 1/2 minutes for the 81 l delivery, I'm sure it
wasn't *that* long! But even so I won't have to refuel for 550+
miles.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Sun, 03 May 2015 11:26:24 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Take away the subsidies and let them prove their economic case.

You know they gave no economic case.

So why are we building the damn things? Hasn't the mantra for quite a
while being "let the market decide"?

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 03/05/15 12:45, newshound wrote:
On 03/05/2015 11:37, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 03/05/15 11:08, tim..... wrote:

"Roger Mills" wrote in message
...
On 02/05/2015 11:13, Bob Minchin wrote:


There are better ways of storing/using excess solar power by heating
water especially if you are already using electric water heating.


But it's not storing it in the sense of being able to convert it back
to usable electricity easily and efficiently - so it doesn't compare
with a battery and inverter.

and it would take a pretty big tank to use the summer sunshine to heat
water for my winter heating :-)


I did the calcs on that actually. It really isn't as big as you might
think.

A tank of hot water the size of a house, underneath it is probably enough


In much the same way that some big country houses had an "ice-house"
which kept them in cold gin and tonics through the summer.

Now ypou come to mention it, yes, probably.

The bigger a thermal store is, the easier it is to insulate as the ratio
of mass to surface are goes up.

bloody great hot water swimming pool of cast concrete surrounded by
expanded poly inside the foundations is the answer.

Use off peak leccy to charge, and pull the heat out via a secondary heat
exchanger

If you want a boiled baby just lower on the end of a string ;-)







--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

On 03/05/15 12:55, Simon Brown wrote:


"newshound" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 03/05/2015 11:37, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 03/05/15 11:08, tim..... wrote:

"Roger Mills" wrote in message
...
On 02/05/2015 11:13, Bob Minchin wrote:


There are better ways of storing/using excess solar power by heating
water especially if you are already using electric water heating.


But it's not storing it in the sense of being able to convert it back
to usable electricity easily and efficiently - so it doesn't compare
with a battery and inverter.

and it would take a pretty big tank to use the summer sunshine to heat
water for my winter heating :-)


I did the calcs on that actually. It really isn't as big as you might
think.

A tank of hot water the size of a house, underneath it is probably
enough


In much the same way that some big country houses had an "ice-house"
which kept them in cold gin and tonics through the summer.

Nothing like it actually. You need to store a hell of a lot more joules
to heat the house through the winter than to keep the drinks cool in
summer.

yes, but the principle is the same. The more mass you have the lower are
the losses.

icebergs last longer than snowflakes....

--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

On 03/05/15 13:38, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sun, 03 May 2015 11:26:24 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Take away the subsidies and let them prove their economic case.

You know they gave no economic case.

So why are we building the damn things? Hasn't the mantra for quite a
while being "let the market decide"?

No. The mantra has been 'throw other peoples money at our useless
technology' for 10 years now.

There is no electricity market as such, its ALL subsidised and those
that shout loudest (greens) get the most money.

Its optimised for profit and ideology not for cost effective solutions.


--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

On 03/05/15 13:51, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Tim Watts
wrote:

On 03/05/15 10:19, Tim Streater wrote:

Now, at least the way I drive, after 170 miles, I rather find a 30 min
break with a coffee and a good walk around to be a necessity.

Are you one of these people who drives on the brakes, and sits 3
microns behind the car in front at all speeds?

Please tell me how you made that mental leap - I am actually fascinated!

:-)

If you need a break that frequently on a journey, I deduce you drive
like a manioc. Unless you're going at 35mph the whole way, perhaps?


No - I just take my breaks at recommended intervals is (about 100-120
miles in my case) doing 60mph average on the motorway (M25 4-5 lanes of
side to side traffic). This happens to be when I judge I should have a
break. Besides my knees get annoyed by being unable to straighten after
about the same time.

So I still don't know what you're on about...

On 03/05/15 12:36, Simon Brown wrote:

Yes, you claimed 'they are with merit', that is wrong.

******** it is.

I just listed the merits. You can go places, they are by all accounts a
very fun drive (judging by all the vids on Youtube). And they are quiet
and clean at the point of use. And the fact about having to plan
refuelling is going to lessen in fairly short order. I want to rent one
for a couple of days, perhaps in America next year, just for giggles.
(Couldn't afford to rent for longer!).

Being "hideously expensive" does not mean they don't have merit.

On 03/05/15 13:04, Chris French wrote:
Yeah, but thee is a difference between choosing to take a break and
having to take a break. Whilst maybe doable, I don't see that anyone but
someone who is a bit of an enthusiast for an elec car wanting to do
that. I am someone who tends to like to take regular breaks when
driving, but nI don't think I'd want that restriction

And most elec cars don't have that sort of range. Things like the
Nisssan leaf you are talking maybe 100 miles as best

Indeed - and that's why I'm quite enthusiastic about the Tesla - and not
at all about the Prius (it has to cart two power units around - what's
the point), or the baby electrics - but the latter do have some uses if
*all* you want is a town car. The problem is that you just can't
occasionally go anywhere else.

In message , alan_m
writes
On 02/05/2015 23:39, Chris French wrote:
In message , alan_m
writes
On 02/05/2015 10:49, Lobster wrote:



In essence yes, though the batteries aren't the same as in the cars
apparently, the chemistry has been tweaked to suit this application (the
car batteries are more suited to lots of cycling).

Are not these batteries going to be fully deep cycled at least once a day?

Dunno, depends on the use case I guess.

The 7kwh and 10kwh consumer products seem to be targeted differently as
they say the 7kwh is designed for daily cycling, and the 10kwh weekly
cycling. don't know if the batteries inside are diferent



--
Chris French

On 03/05/15 13:51, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Tim Watts
wrote:

On 03/05/15 10:19, Tim Streater wrote:

Now, at least the way I drive, after 170 miles, I rather find a 30 min
break with a coffee and a good walk around to be a necessity.

Are you one of these people who drives on the brakes, and sits 3
microns behind the car in front at all speeds?

Please tell me how you made that mental leap - I am actually fascinated!

:-)

If you need a break that frequently on a journey, I deduce you drive
like a manioc*. Unless you're going at 35mph the whole way, perhaps?


*Manioc/Cassava
1. any of several tropical American plants belonging to the genus
Manihot, of the spurge family, having tuberous roots.
2. a nutritious starch from the roots, the source of tapioca.


--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

On 03/05/15 13:58, Huge wrote:
On 2015-05-03, Tim Streater wrote:

I deduce you drive like a manioc.

He drives like a root vegetable?


Tapioca.

Good name for an electric car really. The Tesla Tapioca!


--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

On 03/05/15 13:17, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sun, 03 May 2015 10:16:35 +0100, Tim Watts wrote:

Trouble is stopping for a hour every 100 miles instead of 10 mins
every 550+ isn't very convenient.

A Tesla supercharger will charge the 85kWh model in 75 minutes to 100%
(about 300 miles of range), 80% in 40mins and 170 miles worth in 30 mins
according to:

http://www.teslamotors.com/en_GB/supercharger

Huston, we have a problem. Nearest charger is Leeds 100+ miles away
or Edinburgh 150 miles+ and only 20 in the UK don't make eye larf...
Can a Tesla charge from the more widespread genric charge points and
if so how long does that take for what range?

Now, at least the way I drive, after 170 miles, I rather find a 30 min
break with a coffee and a good walk around to be a necessity.

Perhaps one ought to chill out a bit more when driving? Having said
that it probably depends when and where you are driving.

M25 - it's never much fun and the concentration is somewhat higher than
say the more midlands parts of the M1.

I can haul much further on the M3 or M4 once clear of town, but a run to
Heathrow from junction 5 ish (can't remember exactly) does my head in
and I can just do that in one go, but I prefer a quick knee stretcher
break at Clackett Ln or the other one depending on direction.

Went to
Preston Easter Monday, that wasn't a pleasant drive particulary south
of Lancaster. The number of drivers on the M6 who hadn't a clue how
to drive on motorways, 70 mph less than two car lengths apart, lane 2
hogging (I set the cruise just over 60, so either illegally under
take or have to go out to lane 3 and back), the "magic indicator"
either from incoming slip roads or lane changing. I go further south
than Preston quite often and it's never as bad as it was Easter
Monday. Occasionally busy with three lanes full all at 60 to 70 but
well spaced and no magic indicators.

Having said that 170 miles is anything from 3 to 6 hours behind the
wheel depending on the roads. I'd probably need a pee and possibly a
coffee and bun but that doesn't take 30 mins. Also that 30 mins is
presumably marketing speak and doesn't include the time to
connect/disconnect, authorisation, payment (free in the US but are
they free over here?)

Yes, you have to plan your journey around fuel stops,

But long fuel stops and if you are third in the queue with the others
taking a full charge (1 1/4 hours) not just a top up any schedule of
getting to your destination on time goes out the window.

True - I did not make any allowance for queues at the charger. I guess
that will make the Tesla a victim of its own success if/when.

The other problem is that we are in danger of ending up with umpteen
incompatible superchargers and a plethera of medium charging stations.

A 32A or 13A supply is OK of you drive 5 miles across London and park at
a charging pole outside your office all day (I see a car near Covent
Garden that lives like this every day).


Had a tediously slow diesel pump yesterday. I'd guesstimate 0.1 l/sec
but that means 13 1/2 minutes for the 81 l delivery, I'm sure it
wasn't *that* long! But even so I won't have to refuel for 550+
miles.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
harryagain wrote:
It's illegal to trail a cable across a public pavement.

Where did you get that from?

Common sense + Lawyers for U everywhere.
And
http://www.wandsworth.gov.uk/info/20...avel_choices/5

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
ll.co.uk...
On Sun, 3 May 2015 11:58:57 +0100, harryagain wrote:

Who wants a car that makes a farting noise all the time?

The makers are having to fit noise making devices to electric cars as
people don't hear them coming...

Wrong.
The UK requires that there's a switch to turn the noise off.

Mind you, I expect there are those here that need the farting noise.
To do with their egos?

Cannot see electric cars taking off. Just picture streets with hundreds of charging leads strewn across pavements for those unfortunates who do not have a driveway and park on the street. No doubt there will be a lucrative business opportunity providing kerbside charging sockets and will stealing your neighbours power become the new "bilking".

Richard

On Sun, 03 May 2015 15:14:53 +0100
Tim Watts wrote:

The other problem is that we are in danger of ending up with umpteen
incompatible superchargers and a plethera of medium charging stations.

I wish that there was another term instead of 'supercharger', as that
has been around as an engine component for many years, and has nothing
to do with electric power.

--
Davey.

On Sun, 03 May 2015 15:10:31 +0100
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 03/05/15 13:58, Huge wrote:
On 2015-05-03, Tim Streater wrote:

I deduce you drive like a manioc.

He drives like a root vegetable?


Tapioca.

Good name for an electric car really. The Tesla Tapioca!



I think that's what we called 'frogspawn' at school lunches. So, the
Tesla Frogspawn. Great.

--
Davey.