This gadget made the main headline of The Times today - here's a non-
paywalled-version from the Mail:

http://tinyurl.com/l3hlslv (or
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencete...la-set-reveal-
home-battery-Elon-Musk-unveil-power-pack-tonight-slash-electricity-
bills.html)

Quite surprised never to have heard of this before, especially (AFAICS) in
this ng.

Thoughts? Shall I go and buy a PowerWall then?!

--
David

On 02/05/2015 10:49, Lobster wrote:
This gadget made the main headline of The Times today - here's a non-
paywalled-version from the Mail:

http://tinyurl.com/l3hlslv (or
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencete...la-set-reveal-
home-battery-Elon-Musk-unveil-power-pack-tonight-slash-electricity-
bills.html)

Quite surprised never to have heard of this before, especially (AFAICS) in
this ng.

Thoughts? Shall I go and buy a PowerWall then?!

If everybody starts storing electricity at a cheaper night rate, the
night rate won't stay cheap for long. However, it might provide a useful
standby supply when we start to run out of power because we haven't been
building nukes fast enough.

--
Colin Bignell

Lobster wrote:
This gadget made the main headline of The Times today - here's a non-
paywalled-version from the Mail:

http://tinyurl.com/l3hlslv (or
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencete...la-set-reveal-
home-battery-Elon-Musk-unveil-power-pack-tonight-slash-electricity-
bills.html)

Quite surprised never to have heard of this before, especially (AFAICS) in
this ng.

Thoughts? Shall I go and buy a PowerWall then?!

NO

Once you factor in the replacement cost of batteries over time this is
not a viable scheme.

The $3000 pack will store 7kWh or about £1 of power which will reduce
every charge discharge cycle to the end of life
Typical life of a battery pack might be 2000-3000 cycles but only if
taken to 50% of capacity approx so that is 50p of power.
£1000-£1500 of power in a battery costing £2000.
That is ignoring the capital cost of rest of the system.

There are better ways of storing/using excess solar power by heating
water especially if you are already using electric water heating.

Look up Immersun and similar products. DIY versions available too.
look at http://www.mk2pvrouter.co.uk/

In article ,
Nightjar cpb@ insert my surname here.me.uk wrote:
On 02/05/2015 10:49, Lobster wrote:
This gadget made the main headline of The Times today - here's a non-
paywalled-version from the Mail:

http://tinyurl.com/l3hlslv (or
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencete...la-set-reveal-
home-battery-Elon-Musk-unveil-power-pack-tonight-slash-electricity-
bills.html)

Quite surprised never to have heard of this before, especially (AFAICS)
in this ng.

Thoughts? Shall I go and buy a PowerWall then?!

If everybody starts storing electricity at a cheaper night rate, the
night rate won't stay cheap for long. However, it might provide a useful
standby supply when we start to run out of power because we haven't been
building nukes fast enough.

going eevn further than that, if we generate our electricity from solar
panels, there won't be a cheap night rate - it will be a very expensive
night rate.

--
From KT24 in Surrey

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

On 02/05/2015 11:13, Bob Minchin wrote:
Lobster wrote:
This gadget made the main headline of The Times today - here's a non-
paywalled-version from the Mail:


Thoughts? Shall I go and buy a PowerWall then?!

NO

Once you factor in the replacement cost of batteries over time this is
not a viable scheme.

I agree. I can't see how it would be cheap or efficient for the
general population to buy and maintain vast numbers of these tiny,
shortlived units. It might be more sensible to build larger, more
durable buffer stores at local substations?

On Sat, 02 May 2015 10:58:58 +0100
Nightjar "cpb"@ insert my surname here.me.uk wrote:

On 02/05/2015 10:49, Lobster wrote:
This gadget made the main headline of The Times today - here's a
non- paywalled-version from the Mail:

http://tinyurl.com/l3hlslv (or
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencete...la-set-reveal-
home-battery-Elon-Musk-unveil-power-pack-tonight-slash-electricity-
bills.html)

Quite surprised never to have heard of this before, especially
(AFAICS) in this ng.

Thoughts? Shall I go and buy a PowerWall then?!

If everybody starts storing electricity at a cheaper night rate, the
night rate won't stay cheap for long. However, it might provide a
useful standby supply when we start to run out of power because we
haven't been building nukes fast enough.


Now, if only somebody can come up with a domestic-sized nuclear power
generator, they might be on to something! What do they use for those
long-range satellites, like Voyager?

--
Davey.

Davey wrote:
What do they use for those
long-range satellites, like Voyager?

The Voyager satelllites used the heat from radioactiuve decay of
plutonium and thermocouples. It wasn't weapons grade plutonium but if
you tried that at home I think you'd soon make some new acquaintances
early one morning
--
Robin
reply to address is (meant to be) valid

"charles" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Nightjar cpb@ insert my surname here.me.uk wrote:
On 02/05/2015 10:49, Lobster wrote:
This gadget made the main headline of The Times today - here's a non-
paywalled-version from the Mail:

http://tinyurl.com/l3hlslv (or
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencete...la-set-reveal-
home-battery-Elon-Musk-unveil-power-pack-tonight-slash-electricity-
bills.html)

Quite surprised never to have heard of this before, especially (AFAICS)
in this ng.

Thoughts? Shall I go and buy a PowerWall then?!

If everybody starts storing electricity at a cheaper night rate, the
night rate won't stay cheap for long. However, it might provide a useful
standby supply when we start to run out of power because we haven't been
building nukes fast enough.

going eevn further than that, if we generate our electricity from solar
panels, there won't be a cheap night rate - it will be a very expensive
night rate.

The storing of cheap rate leccy is only for people who don't have panels

people who have panels will use one to store their own "free" leccy.

tim



--
From KT24 in Surrey

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

On 02/05/2015 10:49, Lobster wrote:
This gadget made the main headline of The Times today - here's a non-
paywalled-version from the Mail:

http://tinyurl.com/l3hlslv (or
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencete...la-set-reveal-
home-battery-Elon-Musk-unveil-power-pack-tonight-slash-electricity-
bills.html)

Quite surprised never to have heard of this before, especially (AFAICS) in
this ng.

Thoughts? Shall I go and buy a PowerWall then?!


I looked at storage systems before and they really aren't economic but
they are effectively a big UPS so they could be useful if you suffer
frequent cuts.

In article ,
Chris Hogg wrote:
Tesla have a track record in such batteries, with their Roadster car.

Oh indeed. Both the examples they supplied broke down on the Top Gear test
track. To the point where the test had to be abandoned.

A replacement battery pack costs about $30,000. Like all Li-ion, mustn't
be allowed to run flat. Which means in practice the car has to have
regular use and left on charge when not. Great if you wish to leave it at
the airport when going off on holiday.

Of course like all batteries, a better one is just around the corner. And
has been since lead acid were invented. Yet lead acid are still in use...

--
*Cover me. I'm changing lanes.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dennis@home wrote:

Shall I go and buy a PowerWall then?!

I looked at storage systems before and they really aren't economic

I've not seen any article yet which says the sums add-up

but they are effectively a big UPS so they could be useful if you
suffer frequent cuts.

I thought the Tesla Powerwall sounded like a UPS when it was discussed
on the radio, but it's just a battery and charger, no inverter provided ...

On 02/05/15 12:23, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Sat, 02 May 2015 09:49:54 GMT, Lobster
wrote:

This gadget made the main headline of The Times today - here's a non-
paywalled-version from the Mail:

http://tinyurl.com/l3hlslv (or
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencete...la-set-reveal-
home-battery-Elon-Musk-unveil-power-pack-tonight-slash-electricity-
bills.html)

Quite surprised never to have heard of this before, especially (AFAICS) in
this ng.

Thoughts? Shall I go and buy a PowerWall then?!

Tesla have a track record in such batteries, with their Roadster car.
I'm not sure that a 7kWh battery is really worth having, nor even the
larger capacity 10kWh version. Might keep the fridge/freezer cold and
the TV/computer running for a few hours during a power cut, but not a
lot more. Better, would be the battery they use in their car, with a
decent 53kWh capacity. If everyone had one of these, with 'smart'
electronics, then they would contribute significantly to grid storage
and could take advantage of times when there was excess available on
the grid. A snip at $36,000, weighs a mere 450kg (about 4 times the
ones mentioned above), and with an expected life of all of 7 years,
how could anyone not have one?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_R...Battery_system

Bring the price down significantly, extend the life a lot, and maybe,
just maybe, there's a workable system there. But as TNP will tell you,
that's a lot of energy stored in a small volume. Could be really messy
if it gets damaged or shorts out and goes bang.


Still costs more to store it than it does to generate it.



--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

On 02/05/15 13:34, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Which means in practice the car has to have
regular use and left on charge when not.

No. Means needs electronics to stop it being permanently flattened. The
optimal life for li-ion is stored at half charge


--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

On 02/05/15 13:34, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Chris Hogg wrote:
Tesla have a track record in such batteries, with their Roadster car.

Oh indeed. Both the examples they supplied broke down on the Top Gear test
track. To the point where the test had to be abandoned.

A replacement battery pack costs about $30,000.

Well - such things have to start somewhere - you'd not have a laptop if
everyone said in 1990 "ha, look at that "portable" computer - what a
joke..."

I'd love a Tesla for the kick-assness - the 0-60 on the 2 motor version
is insane. But alas, a bit beyond my savings...

However, as they all come:

http://my.teslamotors.com/en_GB/models/design

with an 8 year infinite milage battery and power train warranty, it's
clear that Elon Musk is aware of the worry that people have about the
batteries and has put the risk on Tesla's side.

So you have something, now, with does cost a bomb, but gives 275-310
miles of range with the acceleration comparable to a Ferrari.

Given time (perhaps quite some time) the cost will come down.

Unlike previous efforts involving boat loads of lead acid batteries, the
Tesla has 3 advantages to give it a bit of impetus:

1) Mineral fuels are very expensive compared to electricity;

2) The government (not just ours) is "making a thing" about local
pollution in cities so loves electric with the various perks that entails;

3) The battery technology is used so widely with pressure globally for
smaller/lighter/more capacity;


I think the timing is fortuitous and electric cars might go somewhere
this time around.

Like all Li-ion, mustn't
be allowed to run flat. Which means in practice the car has to have
regular use and left on charge when not. Great if you wish to leave it at
the airport when going off on holiday.

Of course like all batteries, a better one is just around the corner. And
has been since lead acid were invented. Yet lead acid are still in use...

In article ,
"Robin" writes:
Davey wrote:
What do they use for those
long-range satellites, like Voyager?

The Voyager satelllites used the heat from radioactiuve decay of
plutonium and thermocouples. It wasn't weapons grade plutonium but if
you tried that at home I think you'd soon make some new acquaintances
early one morning

There's only enough Plutonium-238 left in the world for a handfull
of satellites - US has enough for 3 (bought from Russia, having run
out of its own stock), and Russia probably has around the same amount
itself. This is severely limiting the ability to plan future long
term space missions.

For radioisotope thermoelectric generators which are not going into
space, there are other options. Strontium-90 has been popular in the
past, but these generators are too big and heavy to send into space.
USSR used lots of them for powering lighthouses, but many have been
lost or stolen after the collapse of the USSR (sometimes killing the
thieves with radiation).

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
Chris Hogg wrote:
Tesla have a track record in such batteries, with their Roadster car.

Oh indeed. Both the examples they supplied broke down on the Top Gear test
track. To the point where the test had to be abandoned.

A replacement battery pack costs about $30,000. Like all Li-ion, mustn't
be allowed to run flat.

Surely the car's systems manage the battery so that it doesn't go to
flat?

Which means in practice the car has to have
regular use

don't follow that.

and left on charge when not

Probably not a great problem, as long as you have drive/garage to park
the car, or somewhere to park with a charge point it at the other end.

Though for the likely uses cases for elec cars at the moment, people
will probably just drive to and from work and then recharge over night

. Great if you wish to leave it at
the airport when going off on holiday.


If electric vehicle use increases (and I think it will) then it will be
come normal to have parking spaces with a charge point - as you already
find in quite a few places

Of course like all batteries, a better one is just around the corner. And
has been since lead acid were invented. Yet lead acid are still in use...

Yup, because it's an appropriate technology for some uses. It's not
appropriate for others, Hence the variety of batteries that have been
devloped over the years
--
Chris French

On 02/05/15 14:15, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
"Robin" writes:
Davey wrote:
What do they use for those
long-range satellites, like Voyager?

The Voyager satelllites used the heat from radioactiuve decay of
plutonium and thermocouples. It wasn't weapons grade plutonium but if
you tried that at home I think you'd soon make some new acquaintances
early one morning

There's only enough Plutonium-238 left in the world for a handfull
of satellites - US has enough for 3 (bought from Russia, having run
out of its own stock), and Russia probably has around the same amount
itself. This is severely limiting the ability to plan future long
term space missions.

we can always make more if we want to

For radioisotope thermoelectric generators which are not going into
space, there are other options. Strontium-90 has been popular in the
past, but these generators are too big and heavy to send into space.
USSR used lots of them for powering lighthouses, but many have been
lost or stolen after the collapse of the USSR (sometimes killing the
thieves with radiation).



--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

On Sat, 2 May 2015 14:26:07 +0100
Chris French wrote:

In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
Chris Hogg wrote:
Tesla have a track record in such batteries, with their Roadster
car.

Oh indeed. Both the examples they supplied broke down on the Top
Gear test track. To the point where the test had to be abandoned.

A replacement battery pack costs about $30,000. Like all Li-ion,
mustn't be allowed to run flat.

Surely the car's systems manage the battery so that it doesn't go to
flat?

Which means in practice the car has to have
regular use

don't follow that.

and left on charge when not

Probably not a great problem, as long as you have drive/garage to
park the car, or somewhere to park with a charge point it at the
other end.

Though for the likely uses cases for elec cars at the moment, people
will probably just drive to and from work and then recharge over night

. Great if you wish to leave it at
the airport when going off on holiday.


If electric vehicle use increases (and I think it will) then it will
be come normal to have parking spaces with a charge point - as you
already find in quite a few places



When stopped at a service area in Germany in March, I noticed an area
specifically designated for electric cars that needed recharging. Each
parking spot had a chargepoint provided. Recharge the car, go get a
meal, recharge yourself.

--
Davey.

On Sat, 02 May 2015 14:06:28 +0100
Tim Streater wrote:

In article , Davey
wrote:

On Sat, 02 May 2015 10:58:58 +0100
Nightjar "cpb"@ insert my surname here.me.uk wrote:

On 02/05/2015 10:49, Lobster wrote:
This gadget made the main headline of The Times today - here's a
non- paywalled-version from the Mail:

http://tinyurl.com/l3hlslv (or
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencete...la-set-reveal-
home-battery-Elon-Musk-unveil-power-pack-tonight-slash-electricity-
bills.html)

Quite surprised never to have heard of this before, especially
(AFAICS) in this ng.

Thoughts? Shall I go and buy a PowerWall then?!

If everybody starts storing electricity at a cheaper night rate,
the night rate won't stay cheap for long. However, it might
provide a useful standby supply when we start to run out of power
because we haven't been building nukes fast enough.

Now, if only somebody can come up with a domestic-sized nuclear power
generator, they might be on to something! What do they use for those
long-range satellites, like Voyager?

Well if you be arsed to read up about Voyager and in fact any of the
probes that go beyond roughly Jupiter you'd discover what they do for
power. And how long it lasts.


Or I could mention it here as a point for discussion.

--
Davey.

In message , Davey
writes
On Sat, 2 May 2015 14:26:07 +0100
Chris French wrote:

In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes

. Great if you wish to leave it at
the airport when going off on holiday.


If electric vehicle use increases (and I think it will) then it will
be come normal to have parking spaces with a charge point - as you
already find in quite a few places



When stopped at a service area in Germany in March, I noticed an area
specifically designated for electric cars that needed recharging. Each
parking spot had a chargepoint provided. Recharge the car, go get a
meal, recharge yourself.


There are some at the local Park and Ride stop. And I've seen them
around in a few other car parks and other places.
--
Chris French

In article ,
Chris French wrote:
In message , Davey
writes
On Sat, 2 May 2015 14:26:07 +0100
Chris French wrote:

In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes

. Great if you wish to leave it at
the airport when going off on holiday.


If electric vehicle use increases (and I think it will) then it will
be come normal to have parking spaces with a charge point - as you
already find in quite a few places



When stopped at a service area in Germany in March, I noticed an area
specifically designated for electric cars that needed recharging. Each
parking spot had a chargepoint provided. Recharge the car, go get a
meal, recharge yourself.


There are some at the local Park and Ride stop. And I've seen them
around in a few other car parks and other places.

I saw one last weekend at a services on the M1. It could cope witn 2 cars
at once. There seemed to be two different connectors, on single phase and
one 3 phase.

--
From KT24 in Surrey

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 02/05/15 13:34, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Which means in practice the car has to have
regular use and left on charge when not.

No. Means needs electronics to stop it being permanently flattened. The
optimal life for li-ion is stored at half charge

Try reading up about them. They've been sued for the battery going so flat
it had to be replaced. Not covered by warranty.

--
*I almost had a psychic girlfriend but she left me before we met *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Tim Watts wrote:
So you have something, now, with does cost a bomb, but gives 275-310
miles of range with the acceleration comparable to a Ferrari.

But not at the same time. You can only get that sort of range by driving
it like a Pious. With a very timid driver.

Try starting with a Ferrari with a full tank of petrol and a fully charged
Tesla. Now get the Tesla to try and keep up with an enthusiastically
driven one. And see what the range actually is. I've heard under 30 miles.

--
*Letting a cat out of the bag is easier than putting it back in *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher writes:
On 02/05/15 14:15, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
"Robin" writes:
Davey wrote:
What do they use for those
long-range satellites, like Voyager?

The Voyager satelllites used the heat from radioactiuve decay of
plutonium and thermocouples. It wasn't weapons grade plutonium but if
you tried that at home I think you'd soon make some new acquaintances
early one morning

There's only enough Plutonium-238 left in the world for a handfull
of satellites - US has enough for 3 (bought from Russia, having run
out of its own stock), and Russia probably has around the same amount
itself. This is severely limiting the ability to plan future long
term space missions.

we can always make more if we want to

That might be happening, but I heard it would take until 2021 to make
enough for 1 extra space mission if we started last year.

It also costs much more to make it today than it did to make the
original stock pile that's almost run out, and that's probably more
than most space research programmes are likely to be able to afford.

For radioisotope thermoelectric generators which are not going into
space, there are other options. Strontium-90 has been popular in the
past, but these generators are too big and heavy to send into space.
USSR used lots of them for powering lighthouses, but many have been
lost or stolen after the collapse of the USSR (sometimes killing the
thieves with radiation).

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On 02/05/2015 10:49, Lobster wrote:


Thoughts? Shall I go and buy a PowerWall then?!


Isn't it just conventional battery technology packaged in a different
way? The cost effectiveness will depend on the initial cost of the
device (£3K) and how long before you have to replace it (a 1000
charge/discharge cycles in 3 years?)

I see no quoted figures for efficiency.

The success of the project seems to be dependant on _Government_
subsidies for green energy and the falling price of Lithium. In the UK
there are no Government subsidies - just the 15% green/social tax on all
our gas/electricity bills.


--
mailto: news {at} admac {dot] myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 02/05/2015 14:36, The Natural Philosopher wrote:


we can always make more if we want to


Or just buy it from Syria


--
mailto: news {at} admac {dot] myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 02/05/2015 14:26, Chris French wrote:


If electric vehicle use increases (and I think it will) then it will be
come normal to have parking spaces with a charge point - as you already
find in quite a few places

But the cost will not be pennies for the charge. When there are a
million charging points the Government may think its a good way of
raising tax income.


Yup, because it's an appropriate technology for some uses. It's not
appropriate for others, Hence the variety of batteries that have been
devloped over the years

But some battery technologies are not practically scalable. I guess
there must have been a fortune spent researching batteries for hand help
portable equipment but so far they haven't found anything that can run a
modern smart phone for more than a day or two per charge.


--
mailto: news {at} admac {dot] myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 02/05/2015 11:13, Bob Minchin wrote:


There are better ways of storing/using excess solar power by heating
water especially if you are already using electric water heating.


But it's not storing it in the sense of being able to convert it back to
usable electricity easily and efficiently - so it doesn't compare with a
battery and inverter.
--
Cheers,
Roger
____________
Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom
checked.

On 02/05/2015 12:37, tim..... wrote:



The storing of cheap rate leccy is only for people who don't have panels

people who have panels will use one to store their own "free" leccy.

tim


Just how do panels *store* electricity?
--
Cheers,
Roger
____________
Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom
checked.

On 02/05/2015 15:57, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In ,

Tim wrote:
So you have something, now, with does cost a bomb, but gives 275-310
miles of range with the acceleration comparable to a Ferrari.

But not at the same time. You can only get that sort of range by driving
it like a Pious.

Is that some sort of Pope-mobile?
--
Cheers,
Roger
____________
Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom
checked.

On 02/05/2015 20:41, Roger Mills wrote:
On 02/05/2015 12:37, tim..... wrote:



The storing of cheap rate leccy is only for people who don't have panels

people who have panels will use one to store their own "free" leccy.

tim


Just how do panels *store* electricity?

Probably in the battery this thread is about.

"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
On 02/05/15 13:34, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Chris Hogg wrote:
Tesla have a track record in such batteries, with their Roadster car.

Oh indeed. Both the examples they supplied broke down on the Top Gear
test
track. To the point where the test had to be abandoned.

A replacement battery pack costs about $30,000.

Well - such things have to start somewhere - you'd not have a laptop if
everyone said in 1990 "ha, look at that "portable" computer - what a
joke..."

I'd love a Tesla for the kick-assness - the 0-60 on the 2 motor version is
insane. But alas, a bit beyond my savings...

However, as they all come:

http://my.teslamotors.com/en_GB/models/design

with an 8 year infinite milage battery and power train warranty, it's
clear that Elon Musk is aware of the worry that people have about the
batteries and has put the risk on Tesla's side.

So you have something, now, with does cost a bomb, but gives 275-310 miles
of range with the acceleration comparable to a Ferrari.

Given time (perhaps quite some time) the cost will come down.

Unlike previous efforts involving boat loads of lead acid batteries, the
Tesla has 3 advantages to give it a bit of impetus:

1) Mineral fuels are very expensive compared to electricity;

2) The government (not just ours) is "making a thing" about local
pollution in cities so loves electric with the various perks that entails;

3) The battery technology is used so widely with pressure globally for
smaller/lighter/more capacity;


I think the timing is fortuitous and electric cars might go somewhere this
time around.

Not a chance, you watch. For the same reason you don’t have one, the price.

Like all Li-ion, mustn't
be allowed to run flat. Which means in practice the car has to have
regular use and left on charge when not. Great if you wish to leave it at
the airport when going off on holiday.

Of course like all batteries, a better one is just around the corner. And
has been since lead acid were invented. Yet lead acid are still in use...

"alan_m" wrote in message
...
On 02/05/2015 14:26, Chris French wrote:


If electric vehicle use increases (and I think it will) then it will be
come normal to have parking spaces with a charge point - as you already
find in quite a few places

But the cost will not be pennies for the charge. When there are a million
charging points the Government may think its a good way of raising tax
income.


Yup, because it's an appropriate technology for some uses. It's not
appropriate for others, Hence the variety of batteries that have been
devloped over the years

But some battery technologies are not practically scalable. I guess there
must have been a fortune spent researching batteries for hand help
portable equipment but so far they haven't found anything that can run a
modern smart phone for more than a day or two per charge.

That last is just plain wrong. Perfectly doable with the current battery
technology.

The problem is the mindless obsession with thinness means that
there isn't enough room in the phone for a decent sized battery.
Trivial to have one external to the phone tho.

On Sat, 2 May 2015 14:26:07 +0100, Chris French wrote:

Though for the likely uses cases for elec cars at the moment, people
will probably just drive to and from work and then recharge over night

If it has enough range. Working today, 120 mile round trip and that
is one of the closer locations. For a single day a 300 mile round
trip is about my limit.

A colleague has a hybrid, he's always blagging energy from the
generator. How "green" is that? Wouldn't it be better to burn the
diesel in the car?

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Sat, 2 May 2015 15:29:26 +0100, Chris French wrote:

There are some at the local Park and Ride stop. And I've seen them
around in a few other car parks and other places.

They are popping up, I think I've seen one actually being used. Once.


Trouble is stopping for a hour every 100 miles instead of 10 mins
every 550+ isn't very convenient.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Sat, 02 May 2015 11:28:28 +0100, Steve Walker wrote:

I agree. I can't see how it would be cheap or efficient for the
general population to buy and maintain vast numbers of these tiny,
shortlived units.

It's not.

It might be more sensible to build larger, more durable buffer stores at
local substations?

Or as I've said before at the bottom of each windmill. Makes them
dispatchable and thus able to sell at premium prices. Take away the
subsidies and let them prove their economic case.

--
Cheers
Dave.

In message , alan_m
writes
On 02/05/2015 10:49, Lobster wrote:


Thoughts? Shall I go and buy a PowerWall then?!


Isn't it just conventional battery technology packaged in a different
way?

In essence yes, though the batteries aren't the same as in the cars
apparently, the chemistry has been tweaked to suit this application (the
car batteries are more suited to lots of cycling).

The cost effectiveness will depend on the initial cost of the device
(£3K) and how long before you have to replace it (a 1000
charge/discharge cycles in 3 years?)

There is a 10 year battery warranty apparently

I see no quoted figures for efficiency.

The success of the project seems to be dependant on _Government_
subsidies for green energy and the falling price of Lithium. In the UK
there are no Government subsidies - just the 15% green/social tax on
all our gas/electricity bills.


I guess they are aiming for cheaper batteries in the future, Tesla are
building a big factory, what they call a Gigafctory in Nevada to produce
batteries. Which they claim will reduce the cost by 30%

Consumer applications in the uk are a bit limited I think. I imagine the
early customers will be people with solar systems (which I imagine makes
more sense in California or where ever)
--
Chris French

In message o.uk, Dave
Liquorice writes
On Sat, 2 May 2015 14:26:07 +0100, Chris French wrote:

Though for the likely uses cases for elec cars at the moment, people
will probably just drive to and from work and then recharge over night

If it has enough range. Working today, 120 mile round trip and that
is one of the closer locations. For a single day a 300 mile round
trip is about my limit.


Sure, I don't imagine an electric car would suit your usage, but lots of
people have regular, predictable commutes, of fairly short distances
(average car commuting distance is about 10 miles IIRC).. so an electric
car could well be suited to those people e.g. as second family car.
--
Chris French

In message o.uk, Dave
Liquorice writes
On Sat, 2 May 2015 15:29:26 +0100, Chris French wrote:

There are some at the local Park and Ride stop. And I've seen them
around in a few other car parks and other places.

They are popping up, I think I've seen one actually being used. Once.


Trouble is stopping for a hour every 100 miles instead of 10 mins
every 550+ isn't very convenient.


No, indeed not, which is obviously going to limit the appeal of electric
vehicles :-) Though Tesla have fast charging stations which can give 50%
charge is about 20 mins.

It will be interesting to see what sort of real range the upcoming Tesla
Model 3 has (the first Tesla aimed at a more mass market car)
--
Chris French

"Nightjar .me.uk" "cpb"@ insert my surname here wrote in message
...
On 02/05/2015 10:49, Lobster wrote:
This gadget made the main headline of The Times today - here's a non-
paywalled-version from the Mail:

http://tinyurl.com/l3hlslv (or
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencete...la-set-reveal-
home-battery-Elon-Musk-unveil-power-pack-tonight-slash-electricity-
bills.html)

Quite surprised never to have heard of this before, especially (AFAICS)
in
this ng.

Thoughts? Shall I go and buy a PowerWall then?!

Been available for decades.
You need to check out the cost.