"Dennis@home" wrote in message
web.com...
On 02/05/2015 20:41, Roger Mills wrote:
On 02/05/2015 12:37, tim..... wrote:



The storing of cheap rate leccy is only for people who don't have panels

people who have panels will use one to store their own "free" leccy.

tim


Just how do panels *store* electricity?

Probably in the battery this thread is about.

You can buy standalone PV systems and conversion kits for existing FIT
sytems.
(involves a battery)
Not cheap.
Dunno how long they last.

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 02/05/15 14:15, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
"Robin" writes:
Davey wrote:
What do they use for those
long-range satellites, like Voyager?

The Voyager satelllites used the heat from radioactiuve decay of
plutonium and thermocouples. It wasn't weapons grade plutonium but if
you tried that at home I think you'd soon make some new acquaintances
early one morning

There's only enough Plutonium-238 left in the world for a handfull
of satellites - US has enough for 3 (bought from Russia, having run
out of its own stock), and Russia probably has around the same amount
itself. This is severely limiting the ability to plan future long
term space missions.

There's far too much.
A costly embarrasmnet.
As with other useless nuclear waste/scrap, no-body knows how to deal with
it.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21505271

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher writes:
On 02/05/15 14:15, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
"Robin" writes:
Davey wrote:
What do they use for those
long-range satellites, like Voyager?

The Voyager satelllites used the heat from radioactiuve decay of
plutonium and thermocouples. It wasn't weapons grade plutonium but if
you tried that at home I think you'd soon make some new acquaintances
early one morning

There's only enough Plutonium-238 left in the world for a handfull
of satellites - US has enough for 3 (bought from Russia, having run
out of its own stock), and Russia probably has around the same amount
itself. This is severely limiting the ability to plan future long
term space missions.

we can always make more if we want to

That might be happening, but I heard it would take until 2021 to make
enough for 1 extra space mission if we started last year.

Total drivel.
There is a surplus off the now useless stuff from decomissioned nuclear
weapons.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21505271

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 02/05/15 13:34, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Which means in practice the car has to have
regular use and left on charge when not.

No. Means needs electronics to stop it being permanently flattened. The
optimal life for li-ion is stored at half charge

The handbook for my car says leave fully charged.
But never flat.

BTW, no sign of any degradation in my car battery yet.
I never rapid charge it though.

"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
On 02/05/15 13:34, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Chris Hogg wrote:
Tesla have a track record in such batteries, with their Roadster car.

Oh indeed. Both the examples they supplied broke down on the Top Gear
test
track. To the point where the test had to be abandoned.

A replacement battery pack costs about $30,000.

Well - such things have to start somewhere - you'd not have a laptop if
everyone said in 1990 "ha, look at that "portable" computer - what a
joke..."

I'd love a Tesla for the kick-assness - the 0-60 on the 2 motor version is
insane. But alas, a bit beyond my savings...

However, as they all come:

http://my.teslamotors.com/en_GB/models/design

with an 8 year infinite milage battery and power train warranty, it's
clear that Elon Musk is aware of the worry that people have about the
batteries and has put the risk on Tesla's side.

So you have something, now, with does cost a bomb, but gives 275-310 miles
of range with the acceleration comparable to a Ferrari.

Given time (perhaps quite some time) the cost will come down.

Unlike previous efforts involving boat loads of lead acid batteries, the
Tesla has 3 advantages to give it a bit of impetus:

1) Mineral fuels are very expensive compared to electricity;

Only because of tax/subsidy reasons.

harryagain wrote:

You can buy standalone PV systems and conversion kits for existing FIT
sytems.
(involves a battery)
Not cheap.
Dunno how long they last.

Sounds the same as a powerwall ... funny that.

"charles" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Chris French wrote:
In message , Davey
writes
On Sat, 2 May 2015 14:26:07 +0100
Chris French wrote:

In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes

. Great if you wish to leave it at
the airport when going off on holiday.


If electric vehicle use increases (and I think it will) then it will
be come normal to have parking spaces with a charge point - as you
already find in quite a few places



When stopped at a service area in Germany in March, I noticed an area
specifically designated for electric cars that needed recharging. Each
parking spot had a chargepoint provided. Recharge the car, go get a
meal, recharge yourself.


There are some at the local Park and Ride stop. And I've seen them
around in a few other car parks and other places.

I saw one last weekend at a services on the M1. It could cope witn 2 cars
at once. There seemed to be two different connectors, on single phase and
one 3 phase.

Nah.
One is AC mains (up to) 30amp. and one is DC.
Uses the on-board rectifier for AC charging

The DC is fast charge, around 60Kw.
Charges a car in 20/30 mins to 80%
Two cars at once should dim the restaurant lights.

The exra pins are for control circuitry.
Eg Stops you driving the car off with the plug in the hole.
Shuts off power if plug is removed.
Etc.

They will never come into general use.
Not enough lithium
No power capacity for fast charge. Though maybe slow charge at home by
night.
Cost.

Proles will revert to train.

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
ll.co.uk...
On Sat, 2 May 2015 15:29:26 +0100, Chris French wrote:

There are some at the local Park and Ride stop. And I've seen them
around in a few other car parks and other places.

They are popping up, I think I've seen one actually being used. Once.


Trouble is stopping for a hour every 100 miles instead of 10 mins
every 550+ isn't very convenient.

20min.
How often do you drive 100 miles?

"alan_m" wrote in message
...
On 02/05/2015 14:26, Chris French wrote:


If electric vehicle use increases (and I think it will) then it will be
come normal to have parking spaces with a charge point - as you already
find in quite a few places

But the cost will not be pennies for the charge. When there are a million
charging points the Government may think its a good way of raising tax
income.

If you have solar PV, the cost can be zero for some of the time at least.

This is why the gov. won't do away with "road tax" andput it all on fuel.

harryagain wrote:

Andrew Gabriel wrote:

There's only enough Plutonium-238 left in the world for a handfull
of satellites

There's far too much.
A costly embarrasmnet.
As with other useless nuclear waste/scrap, no-body knows how to deal with
it.

What's one extra neutron between friends?

In article ,
Chris French wrote:
In message o.uk, Dave
Liquorice writes
On Sat, 2 May 2015 14:26:07 +0100, Chris French wrote:

Though for the likely uses cases for elec cars at the moment, people
will probably just drive to and from work and then recharge over night

If it has enough range. Working today, 120 mile round trip and that
is one of the closer locations. For a single day a 300 mile round
trip is about my limit.


Sure, I don't imagine an electric car would suit your usage, but lots of
people have regular, predictable commutes, of fairly short distances
(average car commuting distance is about 10 miles IIRC).. so an electric
car could well be suited to those people e.g. as second family car.

but, you'd proabaly need a second family income to buy one.

--
From KT24 in Surrey

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

On Sat, 02 May 2015 23:25:36 +0100 (BST), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

On Sat, 2 May 2015 15:29:26 +0100, Chris French wrote:

There are some at the local Park and Ride stop. And I've seen them
around in a few other car parks and other places.

They are popping up, I think I've seen one actually being used. Once.


Trouble is stopping for a hour every 100 miles instead of 10 mins
every 550+ isn't very convenient.

I noticed one at a little Chef a few weeks back and upon googling
found they started to install them from about 2011.
They must hope to sell a few things while people wait.
For someone with a lot of time it may be possible soon to travel a
fair distance by planning stops with maybe a stay somewhere overnight
but then it's possible for a Bus pass holder to travel from London to
Cornwall for no transport cost if they study timetables and stop at a
few B and B . For most of us the cost of accommodation is better used
filling up a normal car and doing the journey in 5 or 6 hours .
And I wouldn't like to plan a journey once electric cars become more
common place , it is bad enough at a filling station waiting for a
pump to clear while somebody purchases a load of snacks and lottery
tickets. Finding a charger is occupied and you are the 3rd in the
queue each taking an hour will seriously mess up a schedule.
Mind you it could be a new Pikey business opportunity.
Clapped out flat bed transit with clapped out smoke billowing diesel
genny on the back running on stolen red diesel equipped with a charger
in itself probably knicked of a wall somewhere.
Cruise around looking for stranded Electric vehicles. " Charge Your
Car Up sir?

G.Harman

"Tim Streater" wrote in message
.. .
In article , harryagain
wrote:

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher writes:
On 02/05/15 14:15, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
"Robin" writes:
Davey wrote:
What do they use for those
long-range satellites, like Voyager?

The Voyager satelllites used the heat from radioactiuve decay of
plutonium and thermocouples. It wasn't weapons grade plutonium but
if
you tried that at home I think you'd soon make some new acquaintances
early one morning

There's only enough Plutonium-238 left in the world for a handfull
of satellites - US has enough for 3 (bought from Russia, having run
out of its own stock), and Russia probably has around the same amount
itself. This is severely limiting the ability to plan future long
term space missions.

we can always make more if we want to

That might be happening, but I heard it would take until 2021 to make
enough for 1 extra space mission if we started last year.

Total drivel.
There is a surplus off the now useless stuff from decomissioned nuclear
weapons.

That is not Pu-238. Do keep up harry.

Useless stuff in all it's forms/isotopes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutonium#Applications

Note.
All plans to get rid of it.
Would not be considered under normal circumstances.

On Sun, 3 May 2015 08:03:31 +0100, harryagain wrote:

Trouble is stopping for a hour every 100 miles instead of 10 mins
every 550+ isn't very convenient.

20min.
How often do you drive 100 miles?

Pretty much any day I work. 120+ yesterday. Weekly supermarket round
trip is 50+ with a *minimum* of 1400' ascent/decent, the entire
journey will have considerably more than that.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 02/05/15 21:41, Simon Brown wrote:


"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
On 02/05/15 13:34, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Chris Hogg wrote:
Tesla have a track record in such batteries, with their Roadster car.

Oh indeed. Both the examples they supplied broke down on the Top Gear
test
track. To the point where the test had to be abandoned.

A replacement battery pack costs about $30,000.

Well - such things have to start somewhere - you'd not have a laptop
if everyone said in 1990 "ha, look at that "portable" computer - what
a joke..."

I'd love a Tesla for the kick-assness - the 0-60 on the 2 motor
version is insane. But alas, a bit beyond my savings...

However, as they all come:

http://my.teslamotors.com/en_GB/models/design

with an 8 year infinite milage battery and power train warranty, it's
clear that Elon Musk is aware of the worry that people have about the
batteries and has put the risk on Tesla's side.

So you have something, now, with does cost a bomb, but gives 275-310
miles of range with the acceleration comparable to a Ferrari.

Given time (perhaps quite some time) the cost will come down.

Unlike previous efforts involving boat loads of lead acid batteries,
the Tesla has 3 advantages to give it a bit of impetus:

1) Mineral fuels are very expensive compared to electricity;

2) The government (not just ours) is "making a thing" about local
pollution in cities so loves electric with the various perks that
entails;

3) The battery technology is used so widely with pressure globally for
smaller/lighter/more capacity;


I think the timing is fortuitous and electric cars might go somewhere
this time around.

Not a chance, you watch. For the same reason you don’t have one, the price.



And you don't think the price might halve over time? Like petrol cars
(originally only for the very rich), or computers or all manner of other
technology?


That was rather the entire point of my post above:

Older electric cars were dog slow, pathetic range and used battery
technology that was not going to be developed for other reasons.

The Tesla is the antithesis of that so IMO it has a damn good chance of
going places.

On 03/05/15 08:37, wrote:
On Sat, 02 May 2015 23:25:36 +0100 (BST), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

On Sat, 2 May 2015 15:29:26 +0100, Chris French wrote:

There are some at the local Park and Ride stop. And I've seen them
around in a few other car parks and other places.

They are popping up, I think I've seen one actually being used. Once.


Trouble is stopping for a hour every 100 miles instead of 10 mins
every 550+ isn't very convenient.

A Tesla supercharger will charge the 85kWh model in 75 minutes to 100%
(about 300 miles of range), 80% in 40mins and 170 miles worth in 30 mins
according to:

http://www.teslamotors.com/en_GB/supercharger

Now, at least the way I drive, after 170 miles, I rather find a 30 min
break with a coffee and a good walk around to be a necessity.

Yes, you have to plan your journey around fuel stops, but it's not a bad
effort for what you can do NOW in GB and a fair slice of northern
europe. So that's only going to get better.

And I'm not a Tesla fanboi (ie I don't have one and couldn't afford one)
but I honestly think they are with merit.

"harryagain" wrote in message
...

"charles" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Chris French wrote:
In message , Davey
writes
On Sat, 2 May 2015 14:26:07 +0100
Chris French wrote:

In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes

. Great if you wish to leave it at
the airport when going off on holiday.


If electric vehicle use increases (and I think it will) then it will
be come normal to have parking spaces with a charge point - as you
already find in quite a few places



When stopped at a service area in Germany in March, I noticed an area
specifically designated for electric cars that needed recharging. Each
parking spot had a chargepoint provided. Recharge the car, go get a
meal, recharge yourself.


There are some at the local Park and Ride stop. And I've seen them
around in a few other car parks and other places.

I saw one last weekend at a services on the M1. It could cope witn 2 cars
at once. There seemed to be two different connectors, on single phase
and
one 3 phase.

Nah.
One is AC mains (up to) 30amp. and one is DC.
Uses the on-board rectifier for AC charging

The DC is fast charge, around 60Kw.
Charges a car in 20/30 mins to 80%
Two cars at once should dim the restaurant lights.

The exra pins are for control circuitry.
Eg Stops you driving the car off with the plug in the hole.
Shuts off power if plug is removed.
Etc.

They will never come into general use.
Not enough lithium
No power capacity for fast charge. Though maybe slow charge at home by
night.
Cost.

Proles will revert to train.

Nope, they will use LPG powered cars, you watch.

"harryagain" wrote in message
...

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
ll.co.uk...
On Sat, 2 May 2015 15:29:26 +0100, Chris French wrote:

There are some at the local Park and Ride stop. And I've seen them
around in a few other car parks and other places.

They are popping up, I think I've seen one actually being used. Once.


Trouble is stopping for a hour every 100 miles instead of 10 mins
every 550+ isn't very convenient.

20min.
How often do you drive 100 miles?

Often enough that I won't be stupid enough to have an electric car.

On 03/05/15 10:19, Tim Streater wrote:

Now, at least the way I drive, after 170 miles, I rather find a 30 min
break with a coffee and a good walk around to be a necessity.

Are you one of these people who drives on the brakes, and sits 3
microns behind the car in front at all speeds?

Please tell me how you made that mental leap - I am actually fascinated!

In article ,
harryagain wrote:

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
ll.co.uk...
On Sat, 2 May 2015 15:29:26 +0100, Chris French wrote:

There are some at the local Park and Ride stop. And I've seen them
around in a few other car parks and other places.

They are popping up, I think I've seen one actually being used. Once.


Trouble is stopping for a hour every 100 miles instead of 10 mins
every 550+ isn't very convenient.

20min.
How often do you drive 100 miles?

at least once a month and twice a year it's 400.

--
From KT24 in Surrey

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

Tim Watts wrote:
On 02/05/15 21:41, Simon Brown wrote:


"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
On 02/05/15 13:34, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Chris Hogg wrote:
Tesla have a track record in such batteries, with their Roadster car.

Oh indeed. Both the examples they supplied broke down on the Top Gear
test
track. To the point where the test had to be abandoned.

A replacement battery pack costs about $30,000.

Well - such things have to start somewhere - you'd not have a laptop
if everyone said in 1990 "ha, look at that "portable" computer - what
a joke..."

I'd love a Tesla for the kick-assness - the 0-60 on the 2 motor
version is insane. But alas, a bit beyond my savings...

However, as they all come:

http://my.teslamotors.com/en_GB/models/design

with an 8 year infinite milage battery and power train warranty, it's
clear that Elon Musk is aware of the worry that people have about the
batteries and has put the risk on Tesla's side.

So you have something, now, with does cost a bomb, but gives 275-310
miles of range with the acceleration comparable to a Ferrari.

Given time (perhaps quite some time) the cost will come down.

Unlike previous efforts involving boat loads of lead acid batteries,
the Tesla has 3 advantages to give it a bit of impetus:

1) Mineral fuels are very expensive compared to electricity;

2) The government (not just ours) is "making a thing" about local
pollution in cities so loves electric with the various perks that
entails;

3) The battery technology is used so widely with pressure globally for
smaller/lighter/more capacity;


I think the timing is fortuitous and electric cars might go somewhere
this time around.

Not a chance, you watch. For the same reason you don’t have one, the
price.



And you don't think the price might halve over time? Like petrol cars
(originally only for the very rich), or computers or all manner of other
technology?


That was rather the entire point of my post above:

Older electric cars were dog slow, pathetic range and used battery
technology that was not going to be developed for other reasons.

The Tesla is the antithesis of that so IMO it has a damn good chance of
going places.

I asked her if she wanted a Tesla, she said "NO, it doesn't come with a
crane to enable me to get into and out of it".

In article , harryagain
wrote:

"charles" wrote in message
...
In article , Chris French
wrote:
In message , Davey
writes
On Sat, 2 May 2015 14:26:07 +0100 Chris French
wrote:

In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes

. Great if you wish to leave it at the airport when going off on
holiday.


If electric vehicle use increases (and I think it will) then it
will be come normal to have parking spaces with a charge point - as
you already find in quite a few places



When stopped at a service area in Germany in March, I noticed an area
specifically designated for electric cars that needed recharging.
Each parking spot had a chargepoint provided. Recharge the car, go
get a meal, recharge yourself.


There are some at the local Park and Ride stop. And I've seen them
around in a few other car parks and other places.

I saw one last weekend at a services on the M1. It could cope witn 2
cars at once. There seemed to be two different connectors, on single
phase and one 3 phase.

Nah. One is AC mains (up to) 30amp.

believe it or not 3 phase is also AC mains.

What you mean is single phase (domestic) AC mains

--
From KT24 in Surrey

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

Tim Watts wrote:
On 03/05/15 08:37, wrote:
On Sat, 02 May 2015 23:25:36 +0100 (BST), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

On Sat, 2 May 2015 15:29:26 +0100, Chris French wrote:

There are some at the local Park and Ride stop. And I've seen them
around in a few other car parks and other places.

They are popping up, I think I've seen one actually being used. Once.


Trouble is stopping for a hour every 100 miles instead of 10 mins
every 550+ isn't very convenient.

A Tesla supercharger will charge the 85kWh model in 75 minutes to 100%
(about 300 miles of range), 80% in 40mins and 170 miles worth in 30 mins
according to:

http://www.teslamotors.com/en_GB/supercharger

Now, at least the way I drive, after 170 miles, I rather find a 30 min
break with a coffee and a good walk around to be a necessity.


You need a Dodge Intrepid, the only car I've driven which made 14 hour
journeys uncrippling.

On 03/05/15 10:39, Capitol wrote:
Dodge Intrepid

I shall bear that in mind when I visit America next year...

How so, BTW? Leg room, handling or what?

"Davey" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 2 May 2015 14:26:07 +0100
Chris French wrote:

In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
Chris Hogg wrote:
Tesla have a track record in such batteries, with their Roadster
car.

Oh indeed. Both the examples they supplied broke down on the Top
Gear test track. To the point where the test had to be abandoned.

A replacement battery pack costs about $30,000. Like all Li-ion,
mustn't be allowed to run flat.

Surely the car's systems manage the battery so that it doesn't go to
flat?

Which means in practice the car has to have
regular use

don't follow that.

and left on charge when not

Probably not a great problem, as long as you have drive/garage to
park the car, or somewhere to park with a charge point it at the
other end.

Though for the likely uses cases for elec cars at the moment, people
will probably just drive to and from work and then recharge over night

. Great if you wish to leave it at
the airport when going off on holiday.


If electric vehicle use increases (and I think it will) then it will
be come normal to have parking spaces with a charge point - as you
already find in quite a few places



When stopped at a service area in Germany in March, I noticed an area
specifically designated for electric cars that needed recharging. Each
parking spot had a chargepoint provided. Recharge the car, go get a
meal, recharge yourself.

and in 2 hours time rinse and repeat

and in another 2 hour rinse and repeat

just how many meals a day are drivers of electric cars supposed to eat?

tim

On 03/05/15 10:51, tim..... wrote:

"Davey" wrote in message
...

When stopped at a service area in Germany in March, I noticed an area
specifically designated for electric cars that needed recharging. Each
parking spot had a chargepoint provided. Recharge the car, go get a
meal, recharge yourself.

and in 2 hours time rinse and repeat

and in another 2 hour rinse and repeat

just how many meals a day are drivers of electric cars supposed to eat?

Drive 2.5-3 hours. Take 30 min break. Seems perfectly reasonable...

On 03/05/2015 07:21, harryagain wrote:
"Dennis@home" wrote in message
web.com...
On 02/05/2015 20:41, Roger Mills wrote:
On 02/05/2015 12:37, tim..... wrote:



The storing of cheap rate leccy is only for people who don't have panels

people who have panels will use one to store their own "free" leccy.

tim


Just how do panels *store* electricity?

Probably in the battery this thread is about.

You can buy standalone PV systems and conversion kits for existing FIT
sytems.
(involves a battery)
Not cheap.
Dunno how long they last.



Yes, well people that are actually green would buy one and use it rather
than just having panels to grab FIT payments.

On 03/05/2015 00:00, Chris French wrote:


No, indeed not, which is obviously going to limit the appeal of electric
vehicles :-) Though Tesla have fast charging stations which can give 50%
charge is about 20 mins.

Or 40 minutes for an full charge?

Excessive heat during charging may be the killer of batteries hence long
charge times. Fast (???) charge stations may be more convenient but at a
cost of a shorter battery life.

When the take up of electric cars becomes significant I wonder how long
it will then take for every computer route to be grid locked every day
due to drivers getting the last mile out of the old battery. Do you
remember when milk was delivered every day to the doorstep by a electric
milk float and at the end of the round the local traffic queue was a
result of following a vehicle with insufficient performance to climb a
sleeping policeman?

--
mailto: news {at} admac {dot] myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

"Chris French" wrote in message
...
In message o.uk, Dave
Liquorice writes
On Sat, 2 May 2015 14:26:07 +0100, Chris French wrote:

Though for the likely uses cases for elec cars at the moment, people
will probably just drive to and from work and then recharge over night

If it has enough range. Working today, 120 mile round trip and that
is one of the closer locations. For a single day a 300 mile round
trip is about my limit.


Sure, I don't imagine an electric car would suit your usage, but lots of
people have regular, predictable commutes, of fairly short distances
(average car commuting distance is about 10 miles IIRC).. so an electric
car could well be suited to those people e.g. as second family car.

the problem here is that these cars are far too expensive to be "second"
cars

tim

On Sun, 3 May 2015 10:51:49 +0100
"tim....." wrote:

When stopped at a service area in Germany in March, I noticed an
area specifically designated for electric cars that needed
recharging. Each parking spot had a chargepoint provided. Recharge
the car, go get a meal, recharge yourself.

and in 2 hours time rinse and repeat

and in another 2 hour rinse and repeat

just how many meals a day are drivers of electric cars supposed to
eat?

tim

No idea, I don't drive one. I just saw the chargepoints. But German
rest areas tend to have much better food than the M1 does, so it would
be a better experience.

--
Davey.

"Chris French" wrote in message
...
In message , alan_m
writes
On 02/05/2015 10:49, Lobster wrote:


Thoughts? Shall I go and buy a PowerWall then?!


Isn't it just conventional battery technology packaged in a different way?

In essence yes, though the batteries aren't the same as in the cars
apparently, the chemistry has been tweaked to suit this application (the
car batteries are more suited to lots of cycling).

The cost effectiveness will depend on the initial cost of the device (£3K)
and how long before you have to replace it (a 1000 charge/discharge cycles
in 3 years?)

There is a 10 year battery warranty apparently

I see no quoted figures for efficiency.

The success of the project seems to be dependant on _Government_ subsidies
for green energy and the falling price of Lithium. In the UK there are no
Government subsidies - just the 15% green/social tax on all our
gas/electricity bills.


I guess they are aiming for cheaper batteries in the future, Tesla are
building a big factory, what they call a Gigafctory in Nevada to produce
batteries. Which they claim will reduce the cost by 30%

there's something seriously wrong with the technology if the manufacturing
cost is such a large part of the total bill (given that this is a 3000 pound
item)

Or do the economies come because they are making 100 times as many and can
get a better price for components, which will only happen in there's a
demand for that quantity of product (though again, the order of the saving
still looks too large)

"Roger Mills" wrote in message
...
On 02/05/2015 11:13, Bob Minchin wrote:


There are better ways of storing/using excess solar power by heating
water especially if you are already using electric water heating.


But it's not storing it in the sense of being able to convert it back to
usable electricity easily and efficiently - so it doesn't compare with a
battery and inverter.

and it would take a pretty big tank to use the summer sunshine to heat water
for my winter heating :-)

tim

On 03/05/2015 08:03, harryagain wrote:



20min.
How often do you drive 100 miles?



Is the capacity still 100 miles if you want interior heating during the
winter or air-con cooling during the summer?


--
mailto: news {at} admac {dot] myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 03/05/2015 07:18, harryagain wrote:
"Nightjar .me.uk" "cpb"@ insert my surname here wrote in message
...
On 02/05/2015 10:49, Lobster wrote:
This gadget made the main headline of The Times today - here's a non-
paywalled-version from the Mail:

http://tinyurl.com/l3hlslv (or
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencete...la-set-reveal-
home-battery-Elon-Musk-unveil-power-pack-tonight-slash-electricity-
bills.html)

Quite surprised never to have heard of this before, especially (AFAICS)
in
this ng.

Thoughts? Shall I go and buy a PowerWall then?!

Been available for decades.
You need to check out the cost.



Maybe
http://www.sma.de/en/products/solari...rt-energy.html
smaller but cheaper.

Or
http://www.sma.de/en/products/batter...nsumption.html

On 02/05/15 23:31, Dave Liquorice wrote:
Take away the
subsidies and let them prove their economic case.

You know they gave no economic case.



--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

On 03/05/15 10:39, Capitol wrote:
Tim Watts wrote:
On 03/05/15 08:37, wrote:
On Sat, 02 May 2015 23:25:36 +0100 (BST), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

On Sat, 2 May 2015 15:29:26 +0100, Chris French wrote:

There are some at the local Park and Ride stop. And I've seen them
around in a few other car parks and other places.

They are popping up, I think I've seen one actually being used. Once.


Trouble is stopping for a hour every 100 miles instead of 10 mins
every 550+ isn't very convenient.

A Tesla supercharger will charge the 85kWh model in 75 minutes to 100%
(about 300 miles of range), 80% in 40mins and 170 miles worth in 30 mins
according to:

http://www.teslamotors.com/en_GB/supercharger

Now, at least the way I drive, after 170 miles, I rather find a 30 min
break with a coffee and a good walk around to be a necessity.


You need a Dodge Intrepid, the only car I've driven which made 14
hour journeys uncrippling.

Jaguar. The only car where you don't care how long the traffic jam
lasts. Mind you after an hour of stop start I did get a 'transmission
too hot' light and couldn't do more than 50mph...

+120 on the decadent scale though.


--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

On 03/05/15 11:05, tim..... wrote:

there's something seriously wrong with the technology if the
manufacturing cost is such a large part of the total bill

I looked at the above. Then I looked again.

Then I looked again and gasped.

How could anyone not understand that manufacturing cost should be - if
we discount distribution sales and marketing costs - 100% of the cost
of a product?

All there is between freely mine-able lithium ore, and a lithium
battery, is the human wages paid to the people who turn the raw ore into
the battery.

Cost of manufacturing.

Are you some kind of Green?




--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
On 02/05/15 21:41, Simon Brown wrote:


"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
On 02/05/15 13:34, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Chris Hogg wrote:
Tesla have a track record in such batteries, with their Roadster car.

Oh indeed. Both the examples they supplied broke down on the Top Gear
test
track. To the point where the test had to be abandoned.

A replacement battery pack costs about $30,000.

Well - such things have to start somewhere - you'd not have a laptop
if everyone said in 1990 "ha, look at that "portable" computer - what
a joke..."

I'd love a Tesla for the kick-assness - the 0-60 on the 2 motor
version is insane. But alas, a bit beyond my savings...

However, as they all come:

http://my.teslamotors.com/en_GB/models/design

with an 8 year infinite milage battery and power train warranty, it's
clear that Elon Musk is aware of the worry that people have about the
batteries and has put the risk on Tesla's side.

So you have something, now, with does cost a bomb, but gives 275-310
miles of range with the acceleration comparable to a Ferrari.

Given time (perhaps quite some time) the cost will come down.

Unlike previous efforts involving boat loads of lead acid batteries,
the Tesla has 3 advantages to give it a bit of impetus:

1) Mineral fuels are very expensive compared to electricity;

2) The government (not just ours) is "making a thing" about local
pollution in cities so loves electric with the various perks that
entails;

3) The battery technology is used so widely with pressure globally for
smaller/lighter/more capacity;


I think the timing is fortuitous and electric cars might go somewhere
this time around.

Not a chance, you watch. For the same reason you don’t have one, the
price.

And you don't think the price might halve over time?

Not even then, essentially because cars keep
dropping in price as china gets involved.

Like petrol cars (originally only for the very rich),

That won't happen with electric cars now.

or computers or all manner of other technology?

They don’t have the alternative available like electric cars do now.

That was rather the entire point of my post above:

Older electric cars were dog slow, pathetic range and used battery
technology that was not going to be developed for other reasons.

The Tesla is the antithesis of that

Yes.

so IMO it has a damn good chance of going places.

Bet it doesn’t, essentially because conventional
cars are so much more viable and much cheaper.

And always will be much more viable and much cheaper too.

On 03/05/15 11:08, tim..... wrote:

"Roger Mills" wrote in message
...
On 02/05/2015 11:13, Bob Minchin wrote:


There are better ways of storing/using excess solar power by heating
water especially if you are already using electric water heating.


But it's not storing it in the sense of being able to convert it back
to usable electricity easily and efficiently - so it doesn't compare
with a battery and inverter.

and it would take a pretty big tank to use the summer sunshine to heat
water for my winter heating :-)


I did the calcs on that actually. It really isn't as big as you might think.

A tank of hot water the size of a house, underneath it is probably enough


tim




--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

On 03/05/15 11:00, alan_m wrote:
On 03/05/2015 00:00, Chris French wrote:


No, indeed not, which is obviously going to limit the appeal of electric
vehicles :-) Though Tesla have fast charging stations which can give 50%
charge is about 20 mins.

Or 40 minutes for an full charge?

No - 75 mins according to Tesla - the last 20% is proportionately longer.

Excessive heat during charging may be the killer of batteries hence long
charge times. Fast (???) charge stations may be more convenient but at a
cost of a shorter battery life.

When the take up of electric cars becomes significant I wonder how long
it will then take for every computer route to be grid locked every day
due to drivers getting the last mile out of the old battery. Do you
remember when milk was delivered every day to the doorstep by a electric
milk float and at the end of the round the local traffic queue was a
result of following a vehicle with insufficient performance to climb a
sleeping policeman?


I suspect the control computer will just refuse to start the car after
n-months of warnings once the battery is that dead.