On 17/04/2015 08:28, Adrian wrote:
On Thu, 16 Apr 2015 23:45:47 +0100, John Rumm wrote:

The NHS is a 60-year mistake.

Well, who's to say that it isn't.

Considering the US was being held up as the model to aspire to...

Straw man alert!

Umm, no.

Much as people close down conversations on immigration etc by crying
"racist", people try the same diversion when discussing the NHS by
claiming anyone wanting to make changes to it must be proffering the US
system as an alternative.

Small problem. It actually WAS being held up as the better alternative.

By who, and where?

Just the same as when people say "No immigration - well, except for nice
white Christian-origin Northern Europeans and North Americans and
Australians and the like, because they're like us, so they're OK" usually
IS because the person saying it is a bigot.

Even then it may have nothing to do with bigotry.

A large influx of people will tend to change the culture of the area
into which they flow. If they are of similar culture then that change
will be relatively small, and less disruptive to the pre-existing
population than if they are from a dramatically different culture. Not
all cultural changes are going to be for the good.

Even in cases where they are culturally similar, a large influx into a
small area will cause a dramatic change in the demand level for local
services. These will take time to scale to the new demand, and during
that time, the pre-existing population will suffer poorer service.

--
Cheers,

John.

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On 17/04/15 11:06, charles wrote:
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 16/04/15 09:39, Brian Gaff wrote:
I do have issues with UKIP, because apart from Nige, there is no other
image is there. A bunch of ex other party memebers and borderline
racists who don't like the main parties. Its kind orf right wing
liberal with fewer mps.
Brian

Oh fdear Brian, In this rare case you are letting your bigotry and
ignorance shine.

Stewart Agnew: a farmer who knows more about farming and the EU
regulations thereof than any other british politician.

In which case he should know that most of the petty rules are created by
DEFRA and not the EU.

We can vote a new DEFRA in any election...


--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

On 17/04/2015 06:29, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 16/04/15 23:49, John Rumm wrote:
On 16/04/2015 12:46, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 16/04/15 11:10, Adrian wrote:
Roger Helmer, asabove but substitute energy.

Ah, yes. Roger Helmer...
Highpoints of his career...
Date rape doesn't exist, it's no more than she should have expected.
Homophobia doesn't exist, it's just propaganda from the militant gay
rights lobby.
The NHS is a 60-year mistake.

Even Farage says he only holds some of his views because he's too
old to
know better...

Along with David Platt.

And as for charisma and leadership Suzanne Evans is probably the next
UKIP leader.

Who?

People I had never heard of until they popped up in the Manifesto. as
Brian says, Nigel is about the only well known member of UKIP.

Except for the odd "controversial" loon being kicked out, of course.

These people are all well known to anyone who takes the trouble to
investigate what UKIP *really* is, rather than allowing themselves to be
spoonfed with what the guardian, torygraph and BBC want you to believe
they are.

The difficulty I have with UKIP is not any of that or their policies...
(some of which I rather like) - its just that they have no viable way of
forming a government, and hence any vote for them (with our electoral
system), is one wasted not keeping the left out of the picture.

So you couldn't vote for any party except the one that's going to win?

One that has a realistic chance of winning, or at least one that will
ensure that the party I fear will cause most harm, be kept from causing it.

Of course UKIP could form a governent. Governments do but little but
pass the odd law and whose moneyy to steal and who to give it to.
Everything else is done by a system that grinds along.

They could in theory if they had a realistic possibility of getting
300+ MPs elected. Do they even have that many candidates standing?

And of course UKIP are challenging the Left more than the right in the
North of England. As the post industrial working class realise that
Labour has been selling them down the river for years.

Yup, that may be true - however who they are "taking" votes from is a
rather harder one to categorise

--
Cheers,

John.

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On 17/04/2015 12:04, whisky-dave wrote:
On Friday, 17 April 2015 11:09:43 UTC+1, Nightjar wrote:


What evidence do they have that UKIP politicians are not exactly the
same?

They don't need evidence,...

Why not? If one of the reasons for voting UKIP is that the other
politicians are corrupt and / or inefficient, you should want evidence
that they are significantly different.

if someone is offering to help you, you rarely ask for evidence, especailly when you see others offering are not what you want.

I would think that is exactly when you most need evidence of their good
intent.

Indeed, I can't help but think they will have more than their fair
share, as a result of people of that ilk defecting from other parties in
the hope that they might do better in a new, smaller, party.

In fact they tend to regard most of the media and establishment in the
same way.

In short you have a worldview where the world is run by a pretty well
connected but loose coalition of total ****s.

A fairly paranoid world view IMO.

But not that far from the truth from a lot of peoples points of view.

So, there are a lot of paranoid people about.

I am quite old enough to remember and, IMO, the only change has been
that things that would have once been ignored, or even subject to a D
Notice, get reported. It is the awareness that has changed, not the
occurrence.

Being aware of something is that such a bad thing....

Not at all. I am merely pointing out that a perception that things have
got worse does not equate to them actually getting worse. Things ain't
what they used to be has been a familiar, but usually mistaken, cry down
the ages.



--
Colin Bignell

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Brian Gaff wrote:

apart from Nige, there is no other image is there.

Stewart Agnew, Roger Helmer, Douglas Carswell, Patrick O Flynn,
David Platt, Suzanne Evan, Diane.

Diane who?

there are more believable intelligent and experienced people in UKIP
than any other party.

They're doing a pretty **** job of getting their names and faces known
then, I've heard of Roger Helmer because he's one of this region's MEPs
and Douglas Carswell due to the $SOMEWHERE by-election, that's it.

On 17/04/15 11:09, Nightjar "cpb"@ wrote:
On 17/04/2015 10:32, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 17/04/15 10:12, Nightjar "cpb"@ wrote:
On 17/04/2015 08:55, The Medway Handyman wrote:
On 16/04/2015 19:59, Nightjar "cpb"@ wrote:
On 16/04/2015 18:07, The Medway Handyman wrote:
On 16/04/2015 10:14, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
...
The deliberate smear campaign by the media and the main parties (who
appear to be sh*t scared that UKIP will take their votes) obviously
has
some effect...

The Official Monster Raving Loony Party has stated that it expects to
lose votes to UKIP.


The main parties are clearly terrified of UKIP.

That only seems to be clear to UKIP supporters.

Well almost by definition....

UKIP supporters tend to feel that most mainstream politicians are venal
corrupt and totally incompetent, and that's fundamentally why they
support UKIP.

What evidence do they have that UKIP politicians are not exactly the
same? Indeed, I can't help but think they will have more than their fair
share, as a result of people of that ilk defecting from other parties in
the hope that they might do better in a new, smaller, party.


I think that they go along and meet them talk to them and make up their
own minds actually.

Radical concept...

In fact they tend to regard most of the media and establishment in the
same way.

In short you have a worldview where the world is run by a pretty well
connected but loose coalition of total ****s.

A fairly paranoid world view IMO.

Just because you are paranoid doesn't men they aren't out to get you ;-)

Given the way the world *actually* works, it would be unlikely that
there was not some kind of loose tacit agreement between 'men of power
and influence' to carve up the game for their own benefit and suppress
dissent...


In the end you have to use your personal Occam's Razor to decide whether
or not that is a fair representation of political organizations,
corporations and the media, or not.

Those of us who are old enough to remember how things used to be a
generation or more ago, tend to feel that it is in fact not only worse
than its ever been, but there is precious little realization that it
is so.

I am quite old enough to remember and, IMO, the only change has been
that things that would have once been ignored, or even subject to a D
Notice, get reported. It is the awareness that has changed, not the
occurrence.

haha. That's only one side of the die. The other side is that *ALL* the
reporting is biased one way or another, and there is a tacit agreement
to leave certain things entirely off the agenda...And that's how you
manage public consciousness. Its not which *side* of the argument that
is promoted, its the actual argument we are having.

I mean, the worlds economy is going to hell in a handcart, we have some
hard men of pretty antithetical ideology smashing the status quo in the
Middle East and all we get to talk about is *gay marriage*! Purlease....


In essence it doesn't matter in the longer term: totally incompetent and
corrupt governments ruin the nations they (claim to) rule until they
eventually collapse, at which point other things take over.

This is of course what the Marxists want - total collapse and a New
World Order.

What Marxists? The last time I met any was in the early 1970s. The SDP
came about because of Trotskyite infiltration of the Labour party, but
that was a third of a century ago and things have changed dramatically
since then.

Miliband is a Marxist. They are all frikking Marxists. They just put on
suits and ties and infiltrated the EU, the unions, the public sector -
Just because they change their name doesnt change their spots.
...

That's the REAL agenda of those who espouse the Left.

What left? We have right wing, centre and slightly left of centre
parties. There hasn't been any left wing main stream party since New
Labour came into being.

hahah. They are ALL left wing, they are all trotting dutifully along a
path that leads to a massive dictatorial superstate, and the only thing
they refuse to discuss is whether that is actually good for the nation.

That's off the agenda. The only thing ON the agenda is how fast we get
absorbed into the European Union, and lose all democratic and legal
rights except those its bureaucrats choose to grant, which ain't much.

If you study the EU, its perfectly plain that the idea is not to have
nations states at all. Just 'regions'



And why they are constantly chipping away at any social institutions
that have some sort of cohesiveness.

Of course, should total collapse come, its almost certain that would
replace it would be some sort of fascist police state.

You might think that would be to your advantage. I differ. I'd rather
have a UKIP led democracy.

I see strong parallels between the rise of UKIP and the rise of the
National Socialist German Workers' Party, so I'll pass on that option.


Actually the SNP is the Nazi party - they are after all National Socialists.

And Germany is nearer a Third Reich - or a Fourth Reich - than at any
time since 1943..

You're looking in the wrong place for the danger..

Look at Stalin, and Lenin for your models,




--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

On 17/04/15 12:02, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Nige and his bunch of inadequates get far more air time than any other
party with 2 MPs.

and far less than a party with only 1 MP, or a party that wants to be
part of a foreign country

But much much more than other parties with more than one MP.

In terms of actual voter percentages, UKIP is the third biggest party in
the UK, well ahead of the SNP, Plaid Cymru, Sinn Fein, the Ulster
Unionists, the Greens or the liberal democrats.

At the last election, they got 3.1% of the votes. LibDems 23%.

Er actually that is a lie, at the last NATIONAL election, for MEPS, they
got nearer 25%.

You are terribly selective with your 'facts'

But the Left never could face reality...

Right now not a single opinion poll puts them at less then twice the lib
dem support


On those figures, UKIP get vastly more air time than they are entitled to.

So you are talking total ******** as usual.


MMm. I'll let others decide which of us is talking ********.

Absorb that an tell me why the *perceptions* is of a small fringe
minority party.

You consider 3.1% not a minority?


No I consider 16-19% not a small minoroity.


--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

On 17/04/15 12:32, Andy Burns wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Brian Gaff wrote:

apart from Nige, there is no other image is there.

Stewart Agnew, Roger Helmer, Douglas Carswell, Patrick O Flynn,
David Platt, Suzanne Evan, Diane.

Diane who?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diane_James

there are more believable intelligent and experienced people in UKIP
than any other party.

They're doing a pretty **** job of getting their names and faces known
then, I've heard of Roger Helmer because he's one of this region's MEPs
and Douglas Carswell due to the $SOMEWHERE by-election, that's it.

As I said, the MSM is happy to put on a Green every few days, but simply
chooses to ignore UKIP MEPS unless they can quote them out of context
and make them look ridiculous.

However with a million quid windfall from Richard Desmond, things may
change a bit.

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2015...llion-to-ukip/

Remember UKIP doesn't get union money, doesn't get big business money,
doesn't get EU money...


--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
And of course UKIP are challenging the Left more than the right in the
North of England. As the post industrial working class realise that
Labour has been selling them down the river for years.

It's interesting that support for UKIP is in direct opposition to the
number of immigrants in an area. In general, it has the highest support
where there are virtually no immigrants in residence. So based on some
irrational fear, rather than experience.

London, for example, is an extremely cosmopolitan area. With very limited
support for UKIP.

--
*I like cats, too. Let's exchange recipes.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 17/04/2015 12:34, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 17/04/15 11:09, Nightjar "cpb"@ wrote:
On 17/04/2015 10:32, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
....
You might think that would be to your advantage. I differ. I'd rather
have a UKIP led democracy.

I see strong parallels between the rise of UKIP and the rise of the
National Socialist German Workers' Party, so I'll pass on that option.


Actually the SNP is the Nazi party - they are after all National
Socialists.

And Germany is nearer a Third Reich - or a Fourth Reich - than at any
time since 1943..

You're looking in the wrong place for the danger..

Look at Stalin, and Lenin for your models,

Let me see... A far right wing party with a charismatic leader, who
blames all the country's ills on a combination of foreign countries
implementing an unfair treaty and a particular group of people, and who
offers populist solutions to the problems. No, I was right first time.


--
Colin Bignell

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 17/04/15 12:02, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Nige and his bunch of inadequates get far more air time than any other
party with 2 MPs.

and far less than a party with only 1 MP, or a party that wants to be
part of a foreign country

But much much more than other parties with more than one MP.

In terms of actual voter percentages, UKIP is the third biggest party in
the UK, well ahead of the SNP, Plaid Cymru, Sinn Fein, the Ulster
Unionists, the Greens or the liberal democrats.

At the last election, they got 3.1% of the votes. LibDems 23%.

Er actually that is a lie, at the last NATIONAL election, for MEPS, they
got nearer 25%.

Right. So you now want to talk about other than the national election? Or
shall we make it local council ones?

Hint. People often vote very differently where it matters. As the SNP
found out. One thing voting as a protest - but when the crunch actually
comes many change their tune.

You are terribly selective with your 'facts'

Crikey. Do you ever understand what you post?

But the Left never could face reality...

Right now not a single opinion poll puts them at less then twice the lib
dem support

Let's ignore actual votes and just use opinion polls, then.


On those figures, UKIP get vastly more air time than they are entitled to.

So you are talking total ******** as usual.


MMm. I'll let others decide which of us is talking ********.

Absorb that an tell me why the *perceptions* is of a small fringe
minority party.

You consider 3.1% not a minority?


No I consider 16-19% not a small minoroity.

You really do like to use any figures you want to support your views. Just
like the average lying politician.

--
*What do little birdies see when they get knocked unconscious? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 17/04/2015 10:47, whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 16 April 2015 19:21:44 UTC+1, Bod wrote:


"Ejecting *all* of the foreigners"?
Do you always exaggerate and lie to desperately get your point across?

This is one reason why UKIP do so well it;'s because those against UKIP are stupid enough to lie and exaggerate about what UKIP actually says, and that strenghens UKIP making the other parties look like painic stricken lairs.
if Nigel Farage was planing to eject all foreigners then he'd have to eject his misses too and he has already claimed she's the only peron in the EU that can do his secretarial work.


Aye.

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
However with a million quid windfall from Richard Desmond, things may
change a bit.

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2015...llion-to-ukip/

Odd that one from a Jewish background should give money to an extreme
right wing party. You could say some never learn.

--
*If at first you don't succeed, redefine success.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 17/04/2015 13:28, Nightjar "cpb"@ wrote:
On 17/04/2015 12:34, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 17/04/15 11:09, Nightjar "cpb"@ wrote:
On 17/04/2015 10:32, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
...
You might think that would be to your advantage. I differ. I'd rather
have a UKIP led democracy.

I see strong parallels between the rise of UKIP and the rise of the
National Socialist German Workers' Party, so I'll pass on that option.


Actually the SNP is the Nazi party - they are after all National
Socialists.

And Germany is nearer a Third Reich - or a Fourth Reich - than at any
time since 1943..

You're looking in the wrong place for the danger..

Look at Stalin, and Lenin for your models,

Let me see... A far right wing party with a charismatic leader, who
blames all the country's ills on a combination of foreign countries
implementing an unfair treaty and a particular group of people, and who
offers populist solutions to the problems. No, I was right first time.


I thought that the SNP *are* blaming England for the unfair wealth
distribution etc *and* specifically, the Conservatives.

On Friday, 17 April 2015 12:26:54 UTC+1, Nightjar wrote:
On 17/04/2015 12:04, whisky-dave wrote:
On Friday, 17 April 2015 11:09:43 UTC+1, Nightjar wrote:


What evidence do they have that UKIP politicians are not exactly the
same?

They don't need evidence,...

Why not?

When you have a promise of being resued you don't inteigate that person.


If one of the reasons for voting UKIP is that the other
politicians are corrupt and / or inefficient, you should want evidence
that they are significantly different.

Perhaps they supply that evidence, Farage could have done much better than he did on the debate last night. He was right but ****ed up badly, he shoul,d have offered to pay the fare of anyone coming to this country PROVIDED anyone in the audiance (or at home) would provide that person or family with an affordable home.



if someone is offering to help you, you rarely ask for evidence, especailly when you see others offering are not what you want.


I would think that is exactly when you most need evidence of their good
intent.

No. If yuo wake up on a pavement after an accident or any sort and someone is helping you, do you ask them for evidence they are helping you ?
If a women is raped on teh street and someone comes to help doe sthe women have to ask for evuidence that that person won't rape her NO of course not.
But of course it does happen, but not expected.

A fairly paranoid world view IMO.

But not that far from the truth from a lot of peoples points of view.

So, there are a lot of paranoid people about.

yes they are, whether that is good or bad is another point.
Should we be parnoid about what ISS is doing or any of these 'freedom' fighers ?
Perhasp we should all say nothiong to see here move along lets talk about the teletubbies or the great britsh bake off to aliviate any possible paroniod fears.



Notice, get reported. It is the awareness that has changed, not the
occurrence.

Being aware of something is that such a bad thing....

Not at all. I am merely pointing out that a perception that things have
got worse does not equate to them actually getting worse.

Depends who you are doesn't it, if yuo feelo your gaining something then it's OK. When I ws growing up there was a good chance of buying yuor own property and I did, not to many can do that now.


Things ain't
what they used to be has been a familiar, but usually mistaken, cry down
the ages.

But it's not always so mistaken is it.

On Friday, 17 April 2015 13:28:35 UTC+1, Nightjar wrote:
On 17/04/2015 12:34, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 17/04/15 11:09, Nightjar "cpb"@ wrote:
On 17/04/2015 10:32, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
...
You might think that would be to your advantage. I differ. I'd rather
have a UKIP led democracy.

I see strong parallels between the rise of UKIP and the rise of the
National Socialist German Workers' Party, so I'll pass on that option.


Actually the SNP is the Nazi party - they are after all National
Socialists.

And Germany is nearer a Third Reich - or a Fourth Reich - than at any
time since 1943..

You're looking in the wrong place for the danger..

Look at Stalin, and Lenin for your models,

Let me see... A far right wing party with a charismatic leader, who
blames all the country's ills on a combination of foreign countries
implementing an unfair treaty and a particular group of people, and who
offers populist solutions to the problems. No, I was right first time.

This person didn't happen to get elected by people because they were ****ed off by the way their curretn govenment was acting by any chance.
This person didn't happen to look like any of these cats did he .

http://tinyurl.com/ox7gc6d

you'd have thought that govenement would have listened to the people before that sort of cat got power wouldn't you.

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Right now not a single opinion poll puts them at less then twice the lib
dem support

Similar to what a few others have said here, I do agree with some of
their policies, but I think they're unelectable. If I was a gambling
man, I'd say quite a few who mutter UKIP to the pollsters will think
twice and the total UKIP votes on the day it counts will fall away to be
less than the Libdems.

In article ,
Andy Burns wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Right now not a single opinion poll puts them at less then twice the lib
dem support

Similar to what a few others have said here, I do agree with some of
their policies, but I think they're unelectable. If I was a gambling
man, I'd say quite a few who mutter UKIP to the pollsters will think
twice and the total UKIP votes on the day it counts will fall away to be
less than the Libdems.

Think I'll start a party saying I'll give the NHS all the money and
facilities it needs to perform properly, free education throughout, build
enough houses to satisfy demand, eradicate poverty and reduce taxation.

It's all very easy to say. Doing it, a different matter.

Does Nige look like he could actually do anything? Other than drink beer
and smoke fags?

He comes across here like the average used car salesman. Arthur Daley
springs to mind.

--
*Horn broken. - Watch for finger.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Think I'll start a party saying I'll give the NHS all the money and
facilities it needs to perform properly, free education throughout, build
enough houses to satisfy demand, eradicate poverty and reduce taxation.

If you'd add "except for the rich" it sounds like Labour.

On 17/04/2015 13:52, whisky-dave wrote:
On Friday, 17 April 2015 12:26:54 UTC+1, Nightjar wrote:
On 17/04/2015 12:04, whisky-dave wrote:
....
if someone is offering to help you, you rarely ask for evidence, especailly when you see others offering are not what you want.


I would think that is exactly when you most need evidence of their good
intent.

No. If yuo wake up on a pavement after an accident or any sort and someone is helping you, do you ask them for evidence they are helping you ?
If a women is raped on teh street and someone comes to help doe sthe women have to ask for evuidence that that person won't rape her NO of course not.
But of course it does happen, but not expected...

You are stretching the analogy too far. You don't have to take split
second decisions about politicians. You can spend years investigating
them, if you want.


....
Things ain't
what they used to be has been a familiar, but usually mistaken, cry down
the ages.

But it's not always so mistaken is it.

Far more often than not.


--
Colin Bignell

On Friday, 17 April 2015 15:00:55 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Andy Burns wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Right now not a single opinion poll puts them at less then twice the lib
dem support

Similar to what a few others have said here, I do agree with some of
their policies, but I think they're unelectable. If I was a gambling
man, I'd say quite a few who mutter UKIP to the pollsters will think
twice and the total UKIP votes on the day it counts will fall away to be
less than the Libdems.

Think I'll start a party saying I'll give the NHS all the money and
facilities it needs to perform properly, free education throughout, build
enough houses to satisfy demand, eradicate poverty and reduce taxation.

It's all very easy to say. Doing it, a different matter.

Do you think you'd get more votes if you said you'd build enough homes so that all those from other countries can come to the UK and have a nice home ready and waiting for them would be a good policy ? Unless of course you want all these people that are good for the UK economy to be sleeping rough on the streets or under marble arch, do you think they are there for the view and weather.



Does Nige look like he could actually do anything? Other than drink beer
and smoke fags?
Drinking bear and smoking fags is good for the UK economy lots of tax from both of those, if he lives on fresh air and lettuce leaves what sort of taxes will he be giving to the UK economy ?


He comes across here like the average used car salesman. Arthur Daley
springs to mind.

Yep he was a well loved character that's the problem. Have someone that speaks their mind and appears so transparent you can see through him or a lair that has lied in the past and you know has every intention of lying in the future.

On 17/04/15 13:44, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
However with a million quid windfall from Richard Desmond, things may
change a bit.

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2015...llion-to-ukip/

Odd that one from a Jewish background should give money to an extreme
right wing party. You could say some never learn.

You are the living proof of that, to be sure.

Of course UKIP is not a right wing party, not nearly as right wing as -
say - Likud...

...but that merely goes to illustrate the depth of your socialist
blinkers and fashionable bigotry, doesn't it?

--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

On 17/04/15 13:28, Nightjar "cpb"@ wrote:
On 17/04/2015 12:34, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 17/04/15 11:09, Nightjar "cpb"@ wrote:
On 17/04/2015 10:32, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
...
You might think that would be to your advantage. I differ. I'd rather
have a UKIP led democracy.

I see strong parallels between the rise of UKIP and the rise of the
National Socialist German Workers' Party, so I'll pass on that option.


Actually the SNP is the Nazi party - they are after all National
Socialists.

And Germany is nearer a Third Reich - or a Fourth Reich - than at any
time since 1943..

You're looking in the wrong place for the danger..

Look at Stalin, and Lenin for your models,

Let me see... A far right wing party with a charismatic leader, who
blames all the country's ills on a combination of foreign countries
implementing an unfair treaty and a particular group of people, and who
offers populist solutions to the problems. No, I was right first time.


You would be if the above was in any sense true.

You may have read it on the Guardian but that doesn't make it true.
There I've stabbed your sacred cow


--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

On 17/04/15 13:38, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
You really do like to use any figures you want to support your views. Just
like the average lying politician.

Ah. the mirror trick.

I think you have accurately summed up yourself there.


--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

On 17/04/15 13:51, Bod wrote:
On 17/04/2015 13:28, Nightjar "cpb"@ wrote:
On 17/04/2015 12:34, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 17/04/15 11:09, Nightjar "cpb"@ wrote:
On 17/04/2015 10:32, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
...
You might think that would be to your advantage. I differ. I'd rather
have a UKIP led democracy.

I see strong parallels between the rise of UKIP and the rise of the
National Socialist German Workers' Party, so I'll pass on that option.


Actually the SNP is the Nazi party - they are after all National
Socialists.

And Germany is nearer a Third Reich - or a Fourth Reich - than at any
time since 1943..

You're looking in the wrong place for the danger..

Look at Stalin, and Lenin for your models,

Let me see... A far right wing party with a charismatic leader, who
blames all the country's ills on a combination of foreign countries
implementing an unfair treaty and a particular group of people, and who
offers populist solutions to the problems. No, I was right first time.


I thought that the SNP *are* blaming England for the unfair wealth
distribution etc *and* specifically, the Conservatives.

AND they are nationalists and socialists and xenophobes to boot.


--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

On 17/04/15 14:12, Andy Burns wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Right now not a single opinion poll puts them at less then twice the lib
dem support

Similar to what a few others have said here, I do agree with some of
their policies, but I think they're unelectable. If I was a gambling
man, I'd say quite a few who mutter UKIP to the pollsters will think
twice and the total UKIP votes on the day it counts will fall away to be
less than the Libdems.

I think the reverse. Its hard top admit you support UKIP. BUt voting for
em is a lot easier.



--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

On Friday, 17 April 2015 15:54:13 UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 17/04/15 14:12, Andy Burns wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Right now not a single opinion poll puts them at less then twice the lib
dem support

Similar to what a few others have said here, I do agree with some of
their policies, but I think they're unelectable. If I was a gambling
man, I'd say quite a few who mutter UKIP to the pollsters will think
twice and the total UKIP votes on the day it counts will fall away to be
less than the Libdems.

I think the reverse. Its hard top admit you support UKIP. BUt voting for
em is a lot easier.

And you don't have to support them in order to vote for them.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In ,
The Natural wrote:
And of course UKIP are challenging the Left more than the right in the
North of England. As the post industrial working class realise that
Labour has been selling them down the river for years.

It's interesting that support for UKIP is in direct opposition to the
number of immigrants in an area. In general, it has the highest support
where there are virtually no immigrants in residence. So based on some
irrational fear, rather than experience.

London, for example, is an extremely cosmopolitan area. With very limited
support for UKIP.

That's because most Londoners are now immigrants. Look in the mirror!

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In ,
The Natural wrote:
Nige and his bunch of inadequates get far more air time than any other
party with 2 MPs.

and far less than a party with only 1 MP, or a party that wants to be
part of a foreign country

But much much more than other parties with more than one MP.

In terms of actual voter percentages, UKIP is the third biggest party in
the UK, well ahead of the SNP, Plaid Cymru, Sinn Fein, the Ulster
Unionists, the Greens or the liberal democrats.

At the last election, they got 3.1% of the votes. LibDems 23%.

On those figures, UKIP get vastly more air time than they are entitled to.

So you are talking total ******** as usual.

Absorb that an tell me why the *perceptions* is of a small fringe
minority party.

You consider 3.1% not a minority?


In the euro elections they achieved 20% IIRC correctly. Is that a
fringe party?

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 17/04/15 14:12, Andy Burns wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Right now not a single opinion poll puts them at less then twice the lib
dem support

Similar to what a few others have said here, I do agree with some of
their policies, but I think they're unelectable. If I was a gambling
man, I'd say quite a few who mutter UKIP to the pollsters will think
twice and the total UKIP votes on the day it counts will fall away to be
less than the Libdems.

I think the reverse. Its hard top admit you support UKIP. BUt voting for
em is a lot easier.



I agree.

In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 16 April 2015 19:21:44 UTC+1, Bod wrote:


"Ejecting *all* of the foreigners"?
Do you always exaggerate and lie to desperately get your point across?

This is one reason why UKIP do so well it;'s because those against UKIP
are stupid enough to lie and exaggerate about what UKIP actually says,
and that strenghens UKIP making the other parties look like painic
stricken lairs. if Nigel Farage was planing to eject all foreigners then
he'd have to eject his misses too and he has already claimed she's the
only peron in the EU that can do his secretarial work.


The reason they do so well is because the majority of their supporters
believe and want those extremes. Just look at how many party members have
been removed for saying just this sort of thing. Nige can waffle all he
wants about being more moderate and removing the worst offenders, but it's
being perceived as an extreme right wing party is where his support comes
from.

--
*42.7% of statistics are made up. Sorry, that should read 47.2% *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Capitol wrote:
In the euro elections they achieved 20% IIRC correctly. Is that a
fringe party?

Euro election voting trends aren't generally reflected in national ones.
Same as local elections. And by-elections. Luckily.

--
*If you try to fail, and succeed, which have you done?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 17/04/15 14:59, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Andy Burns wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Right now not a single opinion poll puts them at less then twice the lib
dem support

Similar to what a few others have said here, I do agree with some of
their policies, but I think they're unelectable. If I was a gambling
man, I'd say quite a few who mutter UKIP to the pollsters will think
twice and the total UKIP votes on the day it counts will fall away to be
less than the Libdems.

Think I'll start a party saying I'll give the NHS all the money and
facilities it needs to perform properly, free education throughout, build
enough houses to satisfy demand, eradicate poverty and reduce taxation.

That's the Labia party.

It's all very easy to say. Doing it, a different matter.

Well exactly.

Does Nige look like he could actually do anything? Other than drink beer
and smoke fags?

Oh yes. But then you don't know him like I do.

He comes across here like the average used car salesman. Arthur Daley
springs to mind.

Better than a Marxist geek whose never made any money except out of
other peoples taxes.



--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

On Fri, 17 Apr 2015 12:16:24 +0100, John Rumm wrote:

The NHS is a 60-year mistake.

Well, who's to say that it isn't.

Considering the US was being held up as the model to aspire to...

Straw man alert!

Umm, no.

Much as people close down conversations on immigration etc by crying
"racist", people try the same diversion when discussing the NHS by
claiming anyone wanting to make changes to it must be proffering the
US system as an alternative.

Small problem. It actually WAS being held up as the better alternative.

By who, and where?

By Helmer, when he claimed on R4 that 80% of Americans had better
healthcare than we do in the UK.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8200817.stm

Just the same as when people say "No immigration - well, except for
nice white Christian-origin Northern Europeans and North Americans and
Australians and the like, because they're like us, so they're OK"
usually IS because the person saying it is a bigot.

Even then it may have nothing to do with bigotry.

No, of course not.

It's just that people different to us are inherently inferior and should
be kept from spoiling our nice country with their presence.

On Fri, 17 Apr 2015 10:12:43 +0100, Nightjar "cpb"@ wrote:

The main parties are clearly terrified of UKIP.

That only seems to be clear to UKIP supporters.

I'll freely admit to being terrified of the prospect of UKIP getting any
real power. Just as I was when the BNP had a brief flurry of support a
few years ago.

On Fri, 17 Apr 2015 13:28:24 +0100, Nightjar "cpb"@ wrote:

Let me see... A far right wing party with a charismatic leader, who
blames all the country's ills on a combination of foreign countries
implementing an unfair treaty and a particular group of people, and who
offers populist solutions to the problems. No, I was right first time.

*ding*

On Fri, 17 Apr 2015 14:59:37 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Does Nige look like he could actually do anything? Other than drink beer
and smoke fags?

I'm sure if he was faced with the stress of any real power he'd
demonstrate how effectively he could have a heart attack.

On 17/04/2015 15:51, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 17/04/15 13:28, Nightjar "cpb"@ wrote:
On 17/04/2015 12:34, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 17/04/15 11:09, Nightjar "cpb"@ wrote:
On 17/04/2015 10:32, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
...
You might think that would be to your advantage. I differ. I'd rather
have a UKIP led democracy.

I see strong parallels between the rise of UKIP and the rise of the
National Socialist German Workers' Party, so I'll pass on that option.


Actually the SNP is the Nazi party - they are after all National
Socialists.

And Germany is nearer a Third Reich - or a Fourth Reich - than at any
time since 1943..

You're looking in the wrong place for the danger..

Look at Stalin, and Lenin for your models,

Let me see... A far right wing party with a charismatic leader, who
blames all the country's ills on a combination of foreign countries
implementing an unfair treaty and a particular group of people, and who
offers populist solutions to the problems. No, I was right first time.


You would be if the above was in any sense true.

You may have read it on the Guardian but that doesn't make it true.
There I've stabbed your sacred cow

So what do you disagree with?

Nigel is not charismatic?
UKIP doesn't blame the EU for our problems?
They don't think immigrants need to be controlled?
UKIP policies are not intended to appeal to the masses?


--
Colin Bignell

On 17/04/15 17:15, Adrian wrote:
On Fri, 17 Apr 2015 10:12:43 +0100, Nightjar "cpb"@ wrote:

The main parties are clearly terrified of UKIP.

That only seems to be clear to UKIP supporters.

I'll freely admit to being terrified of the prospect of UKIP getting any
real power. Just as I was when the BNP had a brief flurry of support a
few years ago.

Have you considered therapy?


--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

On 17/04/15 17:24, Nightjar "cpb"@ wrote:
On 17/04/2015 15:51, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 17/04/15 13:28, Nightjar "cpb"@ wrote:
On 17/04/2015 12:34, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 17/04/15 11:09, Nightjar "cpb"@ wrote:
On 17/04/2015 10:32, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
...
You might think that would be to your advantage. I differ. I'd rather
have a UKIP led democracy.

I see strong parallels between the rise of UKIP and the rise of the
National Socialist German Workers' Party, so I'll pass on that option.


Actually the SNP is the Nazi party - they are after all National
Socialists.

And Germany is nearer a Third Reich - or a Fourth Reich - than at any
time since 1943..

You're looking in the wrong place for the danger..

Look at Stalin, and Lenin for your models,

Let me see... A far right wing party with a charismatic leader, who
blames all the country's ills on a combination of foreign countries
implementing an unfair treaty and a particular group of people, and who
offers populist solutions to the problems. No, I was right first time.


You would be if the above was in any sense true.

You may have read it on the Guardian but that doesn't make it true.
There I've stabbed your sacred cow

So what do you disagree with?

Nigel is not charismatic?
UKIP is not far right.

UKIP doesn't blame the EU for our problems?
Not totally no.

They don't think immigrants need to be controlled?

No, they think immigration needs to be controlled.

UKIP policies are not intended to appeal to the masses?

No, they are intended to solve the nations problems. That they also
appeal to the people who support them shows that there is some hope.




--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll