In the 25 years I lived in my last house in southern suburbia I can count
the number of times the lecky went out on the fingers of one heavily
mutilated hand. Since moving to the middle of feckin nowhere in
Aberdeenshire it's been about a dozen times in 18 months.

We started off with a spate of them in 2012, then it settled down for a
while, we had another one last back end and then it went out for an hour and
a half yesterday again. Several have been in the middle of the night where I
only realise it happened because the clock on the cooker is flashing and has
lost its settings when I get up.

I'd assumed it was just some specific fault on a wire local to our little
enclave here which some bugger really ought to get round to fixing properly
but finally I phoned up the power company yesterday when the phone started
working again and it had knocked out the power to 352 houses over a several
mile area and was reported in as "an explosion at the top of a power pole in
someone's garden".

He also looked up the previous outage and that was over a wide area too. So
no general problem with our local supply, just sod's law it seems. Branches
falling onto cables etc.

So I'm happy it isn't just my house or its supply but surprised it happens
so often. Is this just a "living in the sticks" sort of thing we have to get
used to?
--
Dave Baker

On 27/02/2014 08:15, Dave Baker wrote:

So I'm happy it isn't just my house or its supply but surprised it
happens so often. Is this just a "living in the sticks" sort of thing we
have to get used to?

Pretty much... lots of overhead distribution, tree, weather etc.

UPS the important things, and consider a generator and transfer switch.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"Dave Baker" wrote in message
...
In the 25 years I lived in my last house in southern suburbia I can count
the number of times the lecky went out on the fingers of one heavily
mutilated hand. Since moving to the middle of feckin nowhere in
Aberdeenshire it's been about a dozen times in 18 months.

We started off with a spate of them in 2012, then it settled down for a
while, we had another one last back end and then it went out for an hour
and a half yesterday again. Several have been in the middle of the night
where I only realise it happened because the clock on the cooker is
flashing and has lost its settings when I get up.

I'd assumed it was just some specific fault on a wire local to our little
enclave here which some bugger really ought to get round to fixing
properly but finally I phoned up the power company yesterday when the
phone started working again and it had knocked out the power to 352 houses
over a several mile area and was reported in as "an explosion at the top
of a power pole in someone's garden".

He also looked up the previous outage and that was over a wide area too.
So no general problem with our local supply, just sod's law it seems.
Branches falling onto cables etc.

So I'm happy it isn't just my house or its supply but surprised it happens
so often. Is this just a "living in the sticks" sort of thing we have to
get used to?
--
Dave Baker

It is a living in the sticks thing.
You might be out for days if we have heavy snow and they have many
faults/can't get out to fix things..
Take due precautions. Open fire/stove, portable generator. Camping gas
stove.

It arises out of having overhead power lines.

On 27/02/2014 08:15, Dave Baker wrote:
In the 25 years I lived in my last house in southern suburbia I can
count the number of times the lecky went out on the fingers of one
heavily mutilated hand. Since moving to the middle of feckin nowhere in
Aberdeenshire it's been about a dozen times in 18 months.

That sounds a bit like a run of bad luck. We lose power a couple of
times a year here in North Yorkshire. The last memorable one was a
direct hit on the village hall by lightning which took down all three
phases in the village as the main breaker went pop.

Usually we lose power in bad weather storms or ice so it is helpful to
have a wood burning stove and a backup generator for freezer etc.

He also looked up the previous outage and that was over a wide area too.
So no general problem with our local supply, just sod's law it seems.
Branches falling onto cables etc.

Not just branches whole trees. My hedge is still recovering from the
last one to fall across the power line (which is now one of the bundled
insulated aluminium 3 phase spiral wound round a steel hauser). This
stuff can actually survive having a tree fall on it and come back up
again! However the poles are all bent (marked do not climb) and some
lost their electricity because it ripped their connections off the wall.

So I'm happy it isn't just my house or its supply but surprised it
happens so often. Is this just a "living in the sticks" sort of thing we
have to get used to?

Something you will have to get used to. Buy a couple of emergency lights
and LED torches with a high resistance bridging the on/off switch so
that about 20uA can flow in standby. That way you have some light when
the power goes off (and stock up on candles).

This version of the 3M dayglo plastic torch is impressive and well worth
having if you live in an area prone to power cuts. The light from its
case is enough to find it and in extremis see by once dark adapted. It
only takes 3 AA cells so isn't that long lasting but it is very handy
since you can find it reliably after the lights have gone out!

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Glow-torch...-/271410378344

There is a fob version too. Ignore all the other so called glotorches
they use the old zinc sulphide glows green for 15 minutes after being
blasted by an arc lamp for an hour. This stuff is the real deal.

(no connection with the seller other than having bought one from him)

It is an ideal Xmas stocking filler.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On 27/02/2014 08:15, Dave Baker wrote:
In the 25 years I lived in my last house in southern suburbia I can
count the number of times the lecky went out on the fingers of one
heavily mutilated hand. Since moving to the middle of feckin nowhere in
Aberdeenshire it's been about a dozen times in 18 months.

We started off with a spate of them in 2012, then it settled down for a
while, we had another one last back end and then it went out for an hour
and a half yesterday again. Several have been in the middle of the night
where I only realise it happened because the clock on the cooker is
flashing and has lost its settings when I get up.

I'd assumed it was just some specific fault on a wire local to our
little enclave here which some bugger really ought to get round to
fixing properly but finally I phoned up the power company yesterday when
the phone started working again and it had knocked out the power to 352
houses over a several mile area and was reported in as "an explosion at
the top of a power pole in someone's garden".

He also looked up the previous outage and that was over a wide area too.
So no general problem with our local supply, just sod's law it seems.
Branches falling onto cables etc.

So I'm happy it isn't just my house or its supply but surprised it
happens so often. Is this just a "living in the sticks" sort of thing we
have to get used to?

Yep. When I worked for an electricity board, the rural areas always got
a lot more outages than the urban areas, even though some of the latter
also had overhead distribution lines. Rural overhead lines are a lot
longer, much more exposed to damage, more difficult to inspect
(helicopter surveys were expensive and restricted to the major lines)
and often more difficult to reach when they do need repair.

Colin Bignell

Well in a wy it is, but its also lack of inspection.
Many years ago people used to walk the lines and get trees pruned that
might hit the cables and look for overheating transformers etc, but I have
the feeling that they now plan on a given life for hardware, and do not look
so often at long low runs of cable near trees.
I've also heard via some comments from people that Ofcom are getting more
reports of interference from insulators than used to be the case, so I'd
suggest less inspection is definitely going on, or not if you get my drift.
ask a person who lives in Norfolk, they have similar issues.
Brian

--
From the Sofa of Brian Gaff Reply address is active
"Dave Baker" wrote in message
...
In the 25 years I lived in my last house in southern suburbia I can count
the number of times the lecky went out on the fingers of one heavily
mutilated hand. Since moving to the middle of feckin nowhere in
Aberdeenshire it's been about a dozen times in 18 months.

We started off with a spate of them in 2012, then it settled down for a
while, we had another one last back end and then it went out for an hour
and a half yesterday again. Several have been in the middle of the night
where I only realise it happened because the clock on the cooker is
flashing and has lost its settings when I get up.

I'd assumed it was just some specific fault on a wire local to our little
enclave here which some bugger really ought to get round to fixing
properly but finally I phoned up the power company yesterday when the
phone started working again and it had knocked out the power to 352 houses
over a several mile area and was reported in as "an explosion at the top
of a power pole in someone's garden".

He also looked up the previous outage and that was over a wide area too.
So no general problem with our local supply, just sod's law it seems.
Branches falling onto cables etc.

So I'm happy it isn't just my house or its supply but surprised it happens
so often. Is this just a "living in the sticks" sort of thing we have to
get used to?
--
Dave Baker

On 27/02/2014 09:36, Brian Gaff wrote:
Well in a wy it is, but its also lack of inspection.

NEDL are not too bad up here in North Yorkshire and replaced our aging
once insulated copper three phase with the insulation all hanging off
arcing and sparking in the rain with new aluminium hauser based cable
about a decade ago. Very impressive stuff it is too.

Many years ago people used to walk the lines and get trees pruned that
might hit the cables and look for overheating transformers etc, but I have
the feeling that they now plan on a given life for hardware, and do not look
so often at long low runs of cable near trees.

They seem to come around about very five years and give close trees a
haircut or sooner if the parish council points out a problem to them.

Some of it is based on smarter risk management in that regions with no
trees require a lot less inspection. It doesn't always work but you can
pretty much predict where the most likely damage hotspots will be.

I've also heard via some comments from people that Ofcom are getting more
reports of interference from insulators than used to be the case, so I'd
suggest less inspection is definitely going on, or not if you get my drift.
ask a person who lives in Norfolk, they have similar issues.
Brian

When you live in a rural backwater you have to accept that you are
pretty much last in line when it comes to restoring power. If one team
of engineers can reconnect 100,000 people in a nearby city or go off and
do 1000 people in a difficult to reach village the choice is clear!

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

Well in a way it is, but its also lack of inspection.
Many years ago people used to walk the lines and get trees pruned that
might hit the cables and look for overheating transformers etc, but I have
the feeling that they now plan on a given life for hardware, and do not
look so often at long low runs of cable near trees.
I've also heard via some comments from people that Ofcom are getting more
reports of interference from insulators than used to be the case, so I'd
suggest less inspection is definitely going on, or not if you get my
drift. ask a person who lives in Norfolk, they have similar issues.
Brian


I lived in rural Norfolk before moving to Leyburn in North Yorkshire 10
years ago. So often were the power cuts I bought a generator to keep the
heating and freezer going. Cuts came with amazing frequency due to us being
towards the end of quite along dead end supply line. My uncle moved to an
isolated farm house in Norfolk with its own water supply, six days without
power one winter had him searching in vain all the local hire companies for
a generator. No power equalled no water as well as no central heating, or
lighting. They learned to cook several meals on the wood burning stove!

Leyburn has the advantage of power coming in from two directions, so when
one goes down the other kicks in quite quickly. In the past 10 years I have
only used the generator once, and then only for about three hours.

This reminds me I must start and service it!

Mike

Dave Baker wrote:
In the 25 years I lived in my last house in southern suburbia I can
count the number of times the lecky went out on the fingers of one
heavily mutilated hand. Since moving to the middle of feckin nowhere in
Aberdeenshire it's been about a dozen times in 18 months.

We started off with a spate of them in 2012, then it settled down for a
while, we had another one last back end and then it went out for an hour
and a half yesterday again. Several have been in the middle of the night
where I only realise it happened because the clock on the cooker is
flashing and has lost its settings when I get up.

I'd assumed it was just some specific fault on a wire local to our
little enclave here which some bugger really ought to get round to
fixing properly but finally I phoned up the power company yesterday when
the phone started working again and it had knocked out the power to 352
houses over a several mile area and was reported in as "an explosion at
the top of a power pole in someone's garden".

He also looked up the previous outage and that was over a wide area too.
So no general problem with our local supply, just sod's law it seems.
Branches falling onto cables etc.

So I'm happy it isn't just my house or its supply but surprised it
happens so often. Is this just a "living in the sticks" sort of thing we
have to get used to?

I think you were just lucky. Living in the south with underground
supply, I lose power about 6 times a year, generally for less than a
couple of hours, I subscribe to the run a UPS for anything you want to
keep alive school, but I really hate resetting the alarm clock. I will
only use analogue timers for things, as they are easy to reset. I always
fit one to any security light to reset it once a night so that a short
power failure doesn't leave it on for weeks. We're also suffering from
underground cable faults due to ageing. These can take up to a day to
resolve.

In article ,
Martin Brown wrote:
On 27/02/2014 09:36, Brian Gaff wrote:
Well in a wy it is, but its also lack of inspection.

NEDL are not too bad up here in North Yorkshire and replaced our aging
once insulated copper three phase with the insulation all hanging off
arcing and sparking in the rain with new aluminium hauser based cable

or even "hawser".

there was a tv transmitter near here which lost its power when a tree
branch took out the overhead supply. The Supply company suggested to the
farmer that he had othe rbranches liable to take out the line and he should
remove them. So he did, dropping each one onto the line!

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

On Thu, 27 Feb 2014 08:15:41 -0000, Dave Baker wrote:

Since moving to the middle of feckin nowhere in Aberdeenshire it's been
about a dozen times in 18 months.

Well if you don't like it move back to crowded, boring, dirty,
smelly, suburbia...

How long does the power have to be off for you to call it a "power
cut"?

... but finally I phoned up the power company yesterday when the phone
started working again ...

The phone didn't work? You don't have a line powered phone plugged in
to the line? Bit daft, DECT things won't work without mains... If the
power goes here, after finding a tourch or two and reducing the load
on the UPS to minimum I'm straight on the phone to the DNO. Normally
first to report the outage, more often than not beating the automatic
reporting as well, that might come through during the call.

... and it had knocked out the power to 352 houses over a several mile
area ...

Well in a rural area a single 11 kV line can easily be feeding that
number of houses and being rural thats almost certainly going to be a
large area. Also 352 house is no great load; base load of a house 1
kW, 352 houses, 352 kW @ 11 kV is only 32 A.

The wires may look thin from the ground but there is a peculiar law
that says things that look big up in the air are small at ground
level but things that look small up in the air are big at ground
level. Round here the 11 kV lines are "wires" about 1 cm dia, that's
80 mm^2. Even several miles isn't going to have a great volt drop,
and they can compensate for that to some extent by using different
tappings on the transformers.

... and was reported in as "an explosion at the top of a power pole in
someone's garden".

That's been the fault here for the last couple of times.

So I'm happy it isn't just my house or its supply but surprised it
happens so often. Is this just a "living in the sticks" sort of thing we
have to get used to?

12 outages in 18 months is a bit high, we get about 1 a year that
requires the backup systems to be brought into action and maybe 2 or
3 interuptions a year that only last a second or two as something
trips the auto recloser and it puts the power back.

If all those outage are of the order of 10's of minutes or longer ie
no "off for a second or two" it might be that your supply is not via
an auto-recloser so if something trips the protection a man has to
come out a reset it. Badger the DNO to put one in...

The longest was 36 hours the other year after an ice storm that
brought down the lines in many places and snapped half a dozen poles.


Power cuts happen. Even in suburbia, I'd still have handy backups
maybe not the generator or the two ring & grill camping stove or the
portable gas fire but the gas lanterns and a simple gas camping stove
for certain. Gas lanterns are by far the best light source, flat out
they chuck out more light than a 60 W tungsten bulb, have run times
measured in many hours and a "recharge" is just a cyclinder swap.

--
Cheers
Dave.

/ - show quoted /...but I really hate resetting the alarm clock. /Q

May I introduce you to dab alarm clocks with a battery backup (I think)

/I will only use analogue timers for things, as they are easy to reset.

May I suggest the cheapo electronic plugin timers that remember the time & nous programming...

/I always fit one to any security light to reset it once a night so that a short power failure doesn't leave it on for weeks. /Q

Weeks?! Where are you meantime? On the Costa?!

Presumably you have to trot around all these mech timers to reset them to correct time when power is restored then?

Jim K (of the sticks)

On 27/02/2014 09:23, Nightjar wrote:
On 27/02/2014 08:15, Dave Baker wrote:
In the 25 years I lived in my last house in southern suburbia I can
count the number of times the lecky went out on the fingers of one
heavily mutilated hand. Since moving to the middle of feckin nowhere in
Aberdeenshire it's been about a dozen times in 18 months.

We started off with a spate of them in 2012, then it settled down for a
while, we had another one last back end and then it went out for an hour
and a half yesterday again. Several have been in the middle of the night
where I only realise it happened because the clock on the cooker is
flashing and has lost its settings when I get up.

I'd assumed it was just some specific fault on a wire local to our
little enclave here which some bugger really ought to get round to
fixing properly but finally I phoned up the power company yesterday when
the phone started working again and it had knocked out the power to 352
houses over a several mile area and was reported in as "an explosion at
the top of a power pole in someone's garden".

He also looked up the previous outage and that was over a wide area too.
So no general problem with our local supply, just sod's law it seems.
Branches falling onto cables etc.

So I'm happy it isn't just my house or its supply but surprised it
happens so often. Is this just a "living in the sticks" sort of thing we
have to get used to?

Yep. When I worked for an electricity board, the rural areas always got
a lot more outages than the urban areas, even though some of the latter
also had overhead distribution lines. Rural overhead lines are a lot
longer, much more exposed to damage, more difficult to inspect
(helicopter surveys were expensive and restricted to the major lines)
and often more difficult to reach when they do need repair.

Colin Bignell

The real problem is that the government don't enforce high enough
penalties when electricity supplies fail.

Worse than that, when there is bad weather the amount that the suppliers
have to pay by way of compensation to customers who have been cut off is
halved.

Since the '87 storm my supply was failed three times because of falling
trees hitting overhead lines. The last time was this month. We were cut
off for 48 hours. Nothing was done to correct the problem for the first
30 hours, probably because other problems were being attended to. There
would have been a 4th time just before last Christmas, fortunately the
tree just clipped the line as it fell and only cause a temporary outage.

If the electricity supplier cut down all the trees that could hit the
lines if they fell, or put the cables underground the problem would be
avoided.


I have a similar problem with my BT phone line however in that case I
have ordered an underground fibre connection which I am hoping will be
more reliable. I will be disappointed if the broadband Internet is not
100 times faster.


--
Michael Chare

On 27/02/14 08:31, Huge wrote:

What he said. We live in the middle of nowhere, too, on the end of many
kilometers of overhead distribution. I bought a big UPS.

Which make (and maybe model if arsed you can be ?

Because it's a very good alternative to a generator - particularly as it
can be "always online".


I was considering a dedicated "generator radial circuit" with an
external input socket (male socket) and a few sockets in key places.

However, as our power failures are typically for no longer than a few
hours (1-2 normally and 6 max) I do wonder if a UPS might be a betetr idea.

Could have the CH, modem/network and fridge/freezer permanently on it.

Cheers!


Tim

On 27/02/2014 15:33, Michael Chare wrote:
....
Since the '87 storm my supply was failed three times because of falling
trees hitting overhead lines. The last time was this month. We were cut
off for 48 hours. Nothing was done to correct the problem for the first
30 hours, probably because other problems were being attended to. There
would have been a 4th time just before last Christmas, fortunately the
tree just clipped the line as it fell and only cause a temporary outage.

That is an average of around once every nine years. IMO a very good record.

If the electricity supplier cut down all the trees that could hit the
lines if they fell,

How much extra would you be willing to pay for your electricity to
achieve that level of maintenance?

or put the cables underground the problem would be
avoided....

.... but undergrounding has problems of its own.

Colin Bignell

On Thu, 27 Feb 2014 16:33:32 +0000, Nightjar wrote:

If the electricity supplier cut down all the trees that could hit the
lines if they fell,

How much extra would you be willing to pay for your electricity to
achieve that level of maintenance?

Nothing - because they do that now.

We've just had about a dozen trees removed by Western Power - free of
charge to us - because their proximity to lines posed a risk. Having
moved in last year, we phoned them to arrange transfer of the wayleave
for some poles, and asked about the tree clearance. A surveyor was here
in days, and went a funny colour - the lines had allegedly been inspected
a couple of years previously, but clearly not particularly well...

They aim for five metres clearance from 11kv lines, and 3m from 230v, but
if the landowner is unwilling to co-operate they can get a court order
granting them access and rights to clear 3m from 11kv and 1m from 230v.
And that's horizontal distance as well as vertical. Anything that's
further than that but may pose a risk should it fall will be glared at,
too.

They take this very seriously indeed...

Dave Baker wrote:
In the 25 years I lived in my last house in southern suburbia I can
count the number of times the lecky went out on the fingers of one
heavily mutilated hand. Since moving to the middle of feckin nowhere
in Aberdeenshire it's been about a dozen times in 18 months.

We started off with a spate of them in 2012, then it settled down for
a while, we had another one last back end and then it went out for an
hour and a half yesterday again. Several have been in the middle of
the night where I only realise it happened because the clock on the
cooker is flashing and has lost its settings when I get up.

I'd assumed it was just some specific fault on a wire local to our
little enclave here which some bugger really ought to get round to
fixing properly but finally I phoned up the power company yesterday
when the phone started working again and it had knocked out the power
to 352 houses over a several mile area and was reported in as "an
explosion at the top of a power pole in someone's garden".

He also looked up the previous outage and that was over a wide area
too. So no general problem with our local supply, just sod's law it
seems. Branches falling onto cables etc.

So I'm happy it isn't just my house or its supply but surprised it
happens so often. Is this just a "living in the sticks" sort of thing
we have to get used to?

I've lived on the same estate for my 49 years, different houses though.
Last power cut was in 1974 when Ted Heath took on the miners, more or less
forty years ago this month.
Underground mains here....I've not heard of a power cut happening anywhere
else in my town for a very long time.

Huge wrote:

it's a SmartUPS 2200, s/h on eBay. That might not be a "big" UPS
by your standards, but it was by mine.

I've got a couple of those, both saved from being skipped and a 1400,
they're fairly "cold war" design, never see to go wrong. Last time I
replaced the batteries with 3rd party equivalents they seemed a
reasonable price, need doing again and the prices seem to have shot-up.
So for the past 3 months or so I've bypassed them - and noticed how much
power they consume just sitting there (cooking their batteries!).

On 27/02/14 16:55, Huge wrote:
On 2014-02-27, Tim Watts wrote:
On 27/02/14 08:31, Huge wrote:

What he said. We live in the middle of nowhere, too, on the end of many
kilometers of overhead distribution. I bought a big UPS.

Which make (and maybe model if arsed you can be ?

Well, it's a SmartUPS 2200, s/h on eBay. That might not be a "big" UPS
by your standards, but it was by mine.


Thanks! I was just curious. Should be enough to run CH for a while as
well as internetty stuff. Fridge/freezer I'd have to put a power monitor
on - but perhaps they matter less as they will keep for the sort of
failure durations we get.

On 27/02/2014 16:50, Adrian wrote:
On Thu, 27 Feb 2014 16:33:32 +0000, Nightjar wrote:

If the electricity supplier cut down all the trees that could hit the
lines if they fell,

How much extra would you be willing to pay for your electricity to
achieve that level of maintenance?

Nothing - because they do that now.

We've just had about a dozen trees removed by Western Power - free of
charge to us - because their proximity to lines posed a risk. Having
moved in last year, we phoned them to arrange transfer of the wayleave
for some poles, and asked about the tree clearance. A surveyor was here
in days, and went a funny colour - the lines had allegedly been inspected
a couple of years previously, but clearly not particularly well...

They aim for five metres clearance from 11kv lines, and 3m from 230v, but
if the landowner is unwilling to co-operate they can get a court order
granting them access and rights to clear 3m from 11kv and 1m from 230v.
And that's horizontal distance as well as vertical. Anything that's
further than that but may pose a risk should it fall will be glared at,
too.

They take this very seriously indeed...

However, as you have seen, what they want to achieve and what actually
happens are not necessarily the same thing. it would need a much higher
level of inspection and more tree lopping teams, to achieve the target
of removing *all* trees that might pose a risk. We couldn't do that as a
nationalised industry, at a time when we were looking for ways to spend
money, so that we didn't break the 2% profit cap.

Colin Bignell

On 27/02/2014 17:17, Phil L wrote:
Dave Baker wrote:
In the 25 years I lived in my last house in southern suburbia I can
count the number of times the lecky went out on the fingers of one
heavily mutilated hand. Since moving to the middle of feckin nowhere
in Aberdeenshire it's been about a dozen times in 18 months.

We started off with a spate of them in 2012, then it settled down for
a while, we had another one last back end and then it went out for an
hour and a half yesterday again. Several have been in the middle of
the night where I only realise it happened because the clock on the
cooker is flashing and has lost its settings when I get up.

I'd assumed it was just some specific fault on a wire local to our
little enclave here which some bugger really ought to get round to
fixing properly but finally I phoned up the power company yesterday
when the phone started working again and it had knocked out the power
to 352 houses over a several mile area and was reported in as "an
explosion at the top of a power pole in someone's garden".

He also looked up the previous outage and that was over a wide area
too. So no general problem with our local supply, just sod's law it
seems. Branches falling onto cables etc.

So I'm happy it isn't just my house or its supply but surprised it
happens so often. Is this just a "living in the sticks" sort of thing
we have to get used to?

I've lived on the same estate for my 49 years, different houses though.
Last power cut was in 1974 when Ted Heath took on the miners, more or less
forty years ago this month.
Underground mains here....I've not heard of a power cut happening anywhere
else in my town for a very long time.


You have been lucky. As Jethro notes, excavations are the main hazard to
underground cables.

Colin Bignell

On Thu, 27 Feb 2014 18:20:49 +0000, Tim Streater wrote:

In article , Nightjar
wrote:

On 27/02/2014 16:50, Adrian wrote:
On Thu, 27 Feb 2014 16:33:32 +0000, Nightjar wrote:

If the electricity supplier cut down all the trees that could hit
the lines if they fell,

How much extra would you be willing to pay for your electricity to
achieve that level of maintenance?

Nothing - because they do that now.

We've just had about a dozen trees removed by Western Power - free of
charge to us - because their proximity to lines posed a risk. Having
moved in last year, we phoned them to arrange transfer of the
wayleave for some poles, and asked about the tree clearance. A
surveyor was here in days, and went a funny colour - the lines had
allegedly been inspected a couple of years previously, but clearly
not particularly well...

They aim for five metres clearance from 11kv lines, and 3m from 230v,
but if the landowner is unwilling to co-operate they can get a court
order granting them access and rights to clear 3m from 11kv and 1m
from 230v. And that's horizontal distance as well as vertical.
Anything that's further than that but may pose a risk should it fall
will be glared at, too.

They take this very seriously indeed...

However, as you have seen, what they want to achieve and what actually
happens are not necessarily the same thing. it would need a much higher
level of inspection and more tree lopping teams, to achieve the target
of removing *all* trees that might pose a risk. We couldn't do that as
a nationalised industry, at a time when we were looking for ways to
spend money, so that we didn't break the 2% profit cap.

You mean that even with a lot of money to spend, it wasn't possible to
spend it fast enough? Did the notion of price reductions to customers
not occur to anyone?

Just the thought that crossed my mind!

Avpx

--
The reaper does not listen to the harvest.
(Reaper Man)
18:30:01 up 47 min, 6 users, load average: 0.47, 0.44, 0.47

In article , Nightjar
scribeth thus
On 27/02/2014 15:33, Michael Chare wrote:
...
Since the '87 storm my supply was failed three times because of falling
trees hitting overhead lines. The last time was this month. We were cut
off for 48 hours. Nothing was done to correct the problem for the first
30 hours, probably because other problems were being attended to. There
would have been a 4th time just before last Christmas, fortunately the
tree just clipped the line as it fell and only cause a temporary outage.

That is an average of around once every nine years. IMO a very good record.

Your very lucky!..

If the electricity supplier cut down all the trees that could hit the
lines if they fell,

Like trees near railway lines etc, but then again tree huggers have a
lot to be responsible for..


How much extra would you be willing to pay for your electricity to
achieve that level of maintenance?

or put the cables underground the problem would be
avoided....

... but undergrounding has problems of its own.

Like what?. In comparison to overhead?..

Colin Bignell



--
Tony Sayer

In article , Tim Watts
scribeth thus
On 27/02/14 08:31, Huge wrote:

What he said. We live in the middle of nowhere, too, on the end of many
kilometers of overhead distribution. I bought a big UPS.

Which make (and maybe model if arsed you can be ?

Because it's a very good alternative to a generator - particularly as it
can be "always online".


As long as you don't put much load on it and expect it to run for very
long..


I was considering a dedicated "generator radial circuit" with an
external input socket (male socket) and a few sockets in key places.

Much better idea...


However, as our power failures are typically for no longer than a few
hours (1-2 normally and 6 max) I do wonder if a UPS might be a betetr idea.

Could have the CH, modem/network and fridge/freezer permanently on it.

I doubt for that it will run any of those items for that long...

Unless it a very large capacity one. Prime power generation even from a
cheapie genny is a much better bet. UPS's are for just that maintaining
IT type power while the PC does a shutdown..


Cheers!


Tim


--
Tony Sayer

The real problem is that the government don't enforce high enough
penalties when electricity supplies fail.

Worse than that, when there is bad weather the amount that the suppliers
have to pay by way of compensation to customers who have been cut off is
halved.

Since the '87 storm my supply was failed three times because of falling
trees hitting overhead lines.

That was a bit of a one in "x" year's event;!..

The last time was this month. We were cut
off for 48 hours. Nothing was done to correct the problem for the first
30 hours, probably because other problems were being attended to. There
would have been a 4th time just before last Christmas, fortunately the
tree just clipped the line as it fell and only cause a temporary outage.

If the electricity supplier cut down all the trees that could hit the
lines if they fell, or put the cables underground the problem would be
avoided.

Now your asking;!.


I have a similar problem with my BT phone line however in that case I
have ordered an underground fibre connection which I am hoping will be
more reliable. I will be disappointed if the broadband Internet is not
100 times faster.



Got to be Virgin Media then;?...
--
Tony Sayer

On 27/02/2014 18:40, tony sayer wrote:
In article , Nightjar
scribeth thus
....
... but undergrounding has problems of its own.

Like what?. In comparison to overhead?..

More difficult to upgrade. Can be damaged by ground movement. Prone to
getting digger shovels through them. Faults normally take a lot longer
to trace and repair (digger shovels excluded).

Colin Bignell

On 27/02/2014 18:20, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Nightjar
wrote:
....
However, as you have seen, what they want to achieve and what actually
happens are not necessarily the same thing. it would need a much
higher level of inspection and more tree lopping teams, to achieve the
target of removing *all* trees that might pose a risk. We couldn't do
that as a nationalised industry, at a time when we were looking for
ways to spend money, so that we didn't break the 2% profit cap.

You mean that even with a lot of money to spend, it wasn't possible to
spend it fast enough? Did the notion of price reductions to customers
not occur to anyone?

The adjustments were usually needed close to the year end and increased
expenditure is a faster method than tariff reductions, which need
advanced notice to customers. When profits had been too high (i.e. close
to 2%, which no private supplier would even consider) there usually
would be a price cut, but in the next financial year. OTOH, one year,
all the staff had their wages delayed by one week in order to move the
costs into another accounting period.

Colin Bignell

On Thu, 27 Feb 2014 18:44:00 +0000, tony sayer wrote:

What he said. We live in the middle of nowhere, too, on the end
of
many kilometers of overhead distribution. I bought a big UPS.

Because it's a very good alternative to a generator - particularly
as
it can be "always online".

As long as you don't put much load on it ...

That would be tricky with a "whole house" UPS but one could install a
separate maintained ring and use "chinese"(*) plugs and sockets so
that the kettle/hoover or WHY can't be plugged in.

Also too much load could be the in rush from a motor causing the UPS
to trip out. The in rush from a CRT monitor was enough to trip the
little (750 VA) UPS I have.

... and expect it to run for very long..

That depends on the battery capacity but yes you need *BIG* batterys
to supply 1 kW for any great length of time.
Unless it a very large capacity one. Prime power generation even from a
cheapie genny is a much better bet. UPS's are for just that maintaining
IT type power while the PC does a shutdown..

Our genset is 2 kVA runs the fridges, freezers, CH system etc no
problem. I have 2.6 kVA UPS but no batteries for it. One day I'll
equip it with 4 100 AHr or bigger deep discharge batteries. If the in
rushes don't trip it it would be a bit more convient than the genset.
The latter does have the advantage that a trip down to the garage for
25 litres of red will keep it going for over a day.

(*) Looks like a normal 13A plug but the L and N pins are oriented
vertically and the earth horizontal. Not sure they are still
available or the version with a round earth pin and L/N in normal
orientation.

--
Cheers
Dave.

In message , Dave Baker
writes
So I'm happy it isn't just my house or its supply but surprised it
happens so often. Is this just a "living in the sticks" sort of thing
we have to get used to?

I live on the edge of somewhere.

I've been here for 13 years (before that I had 14 years in a nearby town
centre with no power cuts), and for the first few years, the power went
off with such regularity, I kept a record of it, but now it is a much
rarer event, perhaps every 18 months.

I was at one point moved to write to the distribution company and
complain about it. One of their staff rang me back and seemed to think
that because her power went off on a regular basis, all was well, but
things did improve after that.

There never seemed to be a consistent explanation (often there was no
explanation) as to why it went off, although on one occasion it was
supposedly down to a lightening strike on a substation (about 200yds
away as the crow flies), in that case I think we would have heard it,
and strangely the next day, it looked OK, and no signs of it having been
visited.


Adrian
--
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Dave Liquorice wrote:

one could install a separate maintained ring and use "chinese"(*)
plugs and sockets

(*) Looks like a normal 13A plug but the L and N pins are oriented
vertically and the earth horizontal.

Walsall Gauge.

In article , Adrian
scribeth thus
On Thu, 27 Feb 2014 16:33:32 +0000, Nightjar wrote:

If the electricity supplier cut down all the trees that could hit the
lines if they fell,

How much extra would you be willing to pay for your electricity to
achieve that level of maintenance?

Nothing - because they do that now.

We've just had about a dozen trees removed by Western Power - free of
charge to us - because their proximity to lines posed a risk. Having
moved in last year, we phoned them to arrange transfer of the wayleave
for some poles, and asked about the tree clearance. A surveyor was here
in days, and went a funny colour - the lines had allegedly been inspected
a couple of years previously, but clearly not particularly well...

They aim for five metres clearance from 11kv lines, and 3m from 230v, but
if the landowner is unwilling to co-operate they can get a court order
granting them access and rights to clear 3m from 11kv and 1m from 230v.
And that's horizontal distance as well as vertical. Anything that's
further than that but may pose a risk should it fall will be glared at,
too.

They take this very seriously indeed...

I wish UK power networks did. One of their staff told me they cut back
and then cut back some more regretfully its not the trees that are cut
but men on the ground are;(...
--
Tony Sayer

In article , Nightjar
scribeth thus
On 27/02/2014 18:40, tony sayer wrote:
In article , Nightjar
scribeth thus
...
... but undergrounding has problems of its own.

Like what?. In comparison to overhead?..

More difficult to upgrade. Can be damaged by ground movement. Prone to
getting digger shovels through them. Faults normally take a lot longer
to trace and repair (digger shovels excluded).

Colin Bignell


Overall less bother so I've noticed over some 20 years at several
locations..

On new build's and estates you never, least round this way, see overhead
delivered services..
--
Tony Sayer

... and it had knocked out the power to 352 houses over a several mile
area ...

Well in a rural area a single 11 kV line can easily be feeding that
number of houses and being rural thats almost certainly going to be a
large area. Also 352 house is no great load; base load of a house 1
kW, 352 houses, 352 kW @ 11 kV is only 32 A.

And when there're all cooking up the Xmas lunch;?..

The wires may look thin from the ground but there is a peculiar law
that says things that look big up in the air are small at ground
level but things that look small up in the air are big at ground
level. Round here the 11 kV lines are "wires" about 1 cm dia, that's
80 mm^2. Even several miles isn't going to have a great volt drop,
and they can compensate for that to some extent by using different
tappings on the transformers.

Yes 10 mm I've got a lump that burnt and arced a while ago..

--
Tony Sayer

On 27/02/2014 16:33, Nightjar wrote:
On 27/02/2014 15:33, Michael Chare wrote:
...
Since the '87 storm my supply was failed three times because of falling
trees hitting overhead lines. The last time was this month. We were cut
off for 48 hours. Nothing was done to correct the problem for the first
30 hours, probably because other problems were being attended to. There
would have been a 4th time just before last Christmas, fortunately the
tree just clipped the line as it fell and only cause a temporary outage.

That is an average of around once every nine years. IMO a very good record.


That is just the power cuts that I have been able to see the cause.
Usually I don't know why the power has failed. There have been many
more failures. I don't keep a log, and I have been paid compensation.



If the electricity supplier cut down all the trees that could hit the
lines if they fell,

How much extra would you be willing to pay for your electricity to
achieve that level of maintenance?

A small increase in cost would be OK if reliability was improved.



or put the cables underground the problem would be
avoided....

... but undergrounding has problems of its own.


Building (more?) redundancy into the circuits would also help.



--
Michael Chare

On 27/02/2014 18:46, tony sayer wrote:

The real problem is that the government don't enforce high enough
penalties when electricity supplies fail.

Worse than that, when there is bad weather the amount that the suppliers
have to pay by way of compensation to customers who have been cut off is
halved.

Since the '87 storm my supply was failed three times because of falling
trees hitting overhead lines.

That was a bit of a one in "x" year's event;!..

That is just the trees that are local enough for me to see what
happened. There are many more power cuts.


The last time was this month. We were cut
off for 48 hours. Nothing was done to correct the problem for the first
30 hours, probably because other problems were being attended to. There
would have been a 4th time just before last Christmas, fortunately the
tree just clipped the line as it fell and only cause a temporary outage.

If the electricity supplier cut down all the trees that could hit the
lines if they fell, or put the cables underground the problem would be
avoided.

Now your asking;!.


I have a similar problem with my BT phone line however in that case I
have ordered an underground fibre connection which I am hoping will be
more reliable. I will be disappointed if the broadband Internet is not
100 times faster.



Got to be Virgin Media then;?...

Gigaclear

--
Michael Chare

On Thu, 27 Feb 2014 22:14:41 +0000, tony sayer wrote:

In article , Nightjar
scribeth thus
On 27/02/2014 18:40, tony sayer wrote:
In article , Nightjar
scribeth thus
...
... but undergrounding has problems of its own.

Like what?. In comparison to overhead?..

More difficult to upgrade. Can be damaged by ground movement. Prone to
getting digger shovels through them. Faults normally take a lot longer
to trace and repair (digger shovels excluded).

Colin Bignell


Overall less bother so I've noticed over some 20 years at several
locations..

On new build's and estates you never, least round this way, see overhead
delivered services..

We have one or more power cuts a year, usually because someone has
knocked down a power pole. Here's a lady knocking my pole down very
slowly:
http://i50.tinypic.com/ruy728.jpg

We had 110kV underground to the central city. People kept hitting it with
diggers. Eventually the four cables failed, and it took five weeks to get
the power on again to the central city:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998_Auckland_power_crisis

Then they spent over $100 million digging a tunnel for the cables. It has
a railway line inside it. Piece of cake to fix now!

On 27/02/2014 19:55, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Nightjar
wrote:

On 27/02/2014 18:20, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Nightjar
wrote:
...
However, as you have seen, what they want to achieve and what actually
happens are not necessarily the same thing. it would need a much
higher level of inspection and more tree lopping teams, to achieve the
target of removing *all* trees that might pose a risk. We couldn't do
that as a nationalised industry, at a time when we were looking for
ways to spend money, so that we didn't break the 2% profit cap.

You mean that even with a lot of money to spend, it wasn't possible to
spend it fast enough? Did the notion of price reductions to customers
not occur to anyone?

The adjustments were usually needed close to the year end and
increased expenditure is a faster method than tariff reductions, which
need advanced notice to customers. When profits had been too high
(i.e. close to 2%, which no private supplier would even consider)
there usually would be a price cut, but in the next financial year.
OTOH, one year, all the staff had their wages delayed by one week in
order to move the costs into another accounting period.

OK, fair enough, except that the private supplier might argue they'd be
more efficient anyway, being exposed to competition unlike the
nationalised industries (whether we have a sensible arrangement now
electricity is another matter).


That, of course, was the argument for denationalisation. Personally I am
not convinced that there was a lot of inefficiency, certainly not from
what I could see in my Board. However, it would be possible to
demonstrate 'savings' by cutting back on things that have no obvious
immediate benefit, such as the 20, 40 and 60 year infrastructure plans
we used to maintain.

Colin Bignell

On Thursday, February 27, 2014 8:07:02 PM UTC, Andy Burns wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote:
one could install a separate maintained ring and use "chinese"(*)
plugs and sockets

(*) Looks like a normal 13A plug but the L and N pins are oriented
vertically and the earth horizontal.
Walsall Gauge.

Easier to just use a different style of 13A socket, eg brown or older style ones, or label standard ones.

If you decide different plugs are required, round pin are easier to come by.


NT

In article , MattyF
scribeth thus
On Thu, 27 Feb 2014 22:14:41 +0000, tony sayer wrote:

In article , Nightjar
scribeth thus
On 27/02/2014 18:40, tony sayer wrote:
In article , Nightjar
scribeth thus
...
... but undergrounding has problems of its own.

Like what?. In comparison to overhead?..

More difficult to upgrade. Can be damaged by ground movement. Prone to
getting digger shovels through them. Faults normally take a lot longer
to trace and repair (digger shovels excluded).

Colin Bignell


Overall less bother so I've noticed over some 20 years at several
locations..

On new build's and estates you never, least round this way, see overhead
delivered services..

We have one or more power cuts a year, usually because someone has
knocked down a power pole. Here's a lady knocking my pole down very
slowly:
http://i50.tinypic.com/ruy728.jpg

We had 110kV underground to the central city. People kept hitting it with
diggers. Eventually the four cables failed, and it took five weeks to get
the power on again to the central city:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998_Auckland_power_crisis

That does, on the face of it, seem rather poorly managed;!...


Then they spent over $100 million digging a tunnel for the cables. It has
a railway line inside it. Piece of cake to fix now!

--
Tony Sayer

In article , Michael
Chare mUNDERSCOREnews@chareDOTorgDOTuk.? scribeth thus
On 27/02/2014 18:46, tony sayer wrote:

The real problem is that the government don't enforce high enough
penalties when electricity supplies fail.

Worse than that, when there is bad weather the amount that the suppliers
have to pay by way of compensation to customers who have been cut off is
halved.

Since the '87 storm my supply was failed three times because of falling
trees hitting overhead lines.

That was a bit of a one in "x" year's event;!..

That is just the trees that are local enough for me to see what
happened. There are many more power cuts.


The last time was this month. We were cut
off for 48 hours. Nothing was done to correct the problem for the first
30 hours, probably because other problems were being attended to. There
would have been a 4th time just before last Christmas, fortunately the
tree just clipped the line as it fell and only cause a temporary outage.

If the electricity supplier cut down all the trees that could hit the
lines if they fell, or put the cables underground the problem would be
avoided.

Now your asking;!.


I have a similar problem with my BT phone line however in that case I
have ordered an underground fibre connection which I am hoping will be
more reliable. I will be disappointed if the broadband Internet is not
100 times faster.



Got to be Virgin Media then;?...

Gigaclear


Ah!, community broadband. There seem to be some of those springing up
around this area.

http://www.airbroadband.co.uk/

This one is using wireless delivery on I believe 5.8 Ghz which IMHO
isn't the best choice of frequency as anyone and everyone will be
entitled to use those frequency bands.

So the Gigaclear system is that fibre delivered in which case they must
have dug up all the area served to lay ducts or is that radio delivered
too, if you know?..

It makes me wonder if they can do that why can't BT or VM do it?.

However there were several radio broadband systems came online in the
area around Cambridge, but as soon as the local exchange was enabled up
off people went to broadband by wire. Usually the lack of aerials on the
roof appealed to most subscribers. Makes me wonder if the same might
happen again or perhaps we'll see the likes of G/Clear being swallowed
up by bigger players as time goes by like perhaps err BT;?..


As to your 100 times faster, much less then that is fine We've been on
the 30 meg service from VM for a few years now and its fine. Sir Richard
with his mate Mr Bolt tell us that we're to have 60 for the same price
in the summer which is fine by me...

--
Tony Sayer