In message o.uk, Dave
Liquorice writes
On Mon, 19 Aug 2013 20:08:02 +0100, Tim Lamb wrote:

Is this phosphate?

No, zinc.

http://www.mincoplc.com/projects/Nor...20Project.html

Minco have been talking it up recently, the first few boreholes have
found "interesting" levels of mineralisation but they need to drill
more holes to really find out what's down there before they start
digging big holes...

Ah! You have until October this year to register your mineral rights
with the Land Registry:-)


--
Tim Lamb

On Mon, 19 Aug 2013 12:46:01 +0100, "tim....."
wrote:


But you really think that Cameron is persisting with this 50 billion white
elephant because some EU-crat has got to him

He's only supporting it to divert attention from the more serious issue. A
****ed economy and an energy sector in the hands of a load of foreigners with no
intention of investing and where they are actively shutting plant down until the
lights go out.

This county should have at least half a dozen high speed lines by now, at least
five runways at Heathrow, Motorways from Harwich to Birmingham, Sheffield to
Manchester, Hull to Teesside, Southampton to Birmingham, Exeter to Dover the A1
should be motorway standard along its entire length (with all work north of the
border deferred until the Scots are finally defeated)


--

On Mon, 19 Aug 2013 11:14:08 +0100, Tim Streater
wrote:

In article
osting.com,
Artic wrote:

Tim Streater scribbled...
Instead of building HS2, they should spend the dosh on other
infrastructure improvements.

Typical view of someone who lives in the south east and couldn't give a
flying **** about the rest of the country beyond Watford.

What a ****. Still, to address the point, the "country beyond Watford"
is just what could benefit from infrastructure improvements. Like
improving the Euston - Manchester line, which is fine up to Stoke, but
beyond there is rather slow, IME. Like doubling up the Welwyn Viaduct so
there is no pinch point there (four tracks get squeezed to two).

I should think there's any number of similar main line improvements
could be made for just a fraction of the cost of HS2.

Well for a start they shouldn't have ****ed away half a billion on a landmark
ticket hall for Kings Cross when it woudl have bought a tram system relieving
congestion for a large city outside London.

--

On Mon, 19 Aug 2013 22:06:50 +0100, Nightjar
wrote:

On 19/08/2013 21:36, Tim Streater wrote:
...
And the cost, 10 times that of pylons. Anyone know the highest voltage
they put underground?


The National Grid provides design data for 400kV underground cables, so
presumably they have some of those.

Quite a few of them, some under major cities.

For instance in London, mainly 400kV cables

http://www.nationalgrid.com/NR/rdonlyres/3C010C53-8431-4B34-A573-5FF88A1BB361/48551/TQNW.pdf


In the UK the highest voltage is 450kV for the BritNed link (submarine +
underground) There are 500kV underground cables in USA & Canada.

There is / was an overhead only line operating at over 1000kV in Kazakhstan and
there are lots of 765kV lines in North and South America, South Africa, India &
China.


--

On Mon, 19 Aug 2013 21:18:42 +0100, "dennis@home"
wrote:

On 19/08/2013 21:12, Fredxx wrote:
On 19/08/2013 20:11, dennis@home wrote:
On 19/08/2013 11:43, Road_Hog wrote:

You can Google road tolls and
Rothschilds if you need confirmation. You can Google about the Galileo
GPS
system, about European wide road tolls.

Why do they need galileo to do what you claim?
Road pricing using GPS works now if someone wants to introduce it.

So do the black box recorders fitted to many cars for the last ten years.


Do you know how easy it is to block GPS signals.

So is galileo significantly harder to block, it has more power but uses
the same principles.

Its easy enough to stop for a road pricing application, just charge the
maximum for any road where the GPS is lost.

If you block it all the time it won't even know it is on the road. False plates
and it's someone else who gets the bill. Hacked odometer readings and they
can't prove you did the mileage either.

--

On Mon, 19 Aug 2013 21:49:46 +0100 (BST), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

What I saw on the web (so it must be true) was about an hour knocked
off the fastest current London Edinburgh time of about 4:30.

All the more reason they should go the direct route avoiding Birmingham and
Manchester and at the same time build HS3 to HS10. If anyone complains then
simply shoot them and then you avoid public enquiries, compensation and delays.

--

In article k,
Road_Hog scribeth thus

"charles" wrote in message
. ..

Fly: Public transport to Heathrow 1.5 hours check in time +2hrs, flight
time 1hr, wait for luggage 0.5 hr, public transport to city centre (it
might be quicker by tram) 0.75 hr. that's nearly 6 hours.

--

Oh do **** off, who in their right mind would rather take the train, than
fly that distance.

Back in the day when I travelled a lot, they wanted the same money for a
train fron London to Newcastle, as they did for a business class flight (on
BMI), which included access to the lounge, free beer and a bit of food,
whereas rail travel got you a cup of tea and biccies.



Last time we did Cambridge to Aberdeen, Train out Flight home, the
flight was only a half hour less in overall time from destination to
home.

The problem is that the flight of course by itself is very quick, but
the collateral in getting to the airport checking in and the waiting
around, a delayed flight sometime makes it not that competitive with the
train...


--
Tony Sayer

In article , John Williamson
scribeth thus
tony sayer wrote:
In article , John Williamson
scribeth thus
Nightjar wrote:
On 19/08/2013 19:33, polygonum wrote:
On 19/08/2013 15:38, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Personally i'd use the railway system for freight, and invest in
marshalling yards controlled by computers.
I've always thought marshalling yards a very inefficient way of
assembling wagons into trains - whether computer controlled or not.
Surely it would be possible to make bits of track slide from one line to
another?...
Aka transporters. A number were installed in the first Paddington
station at Bishop's Bridge Road. Presumably, had they been successful,
we would see them in widespread use today.

Expensive, unreliable and slow, but worth it for moving rolling stock
from track to track where space is extremely limited, such as in
carriage and wagon repair facilites and locomotive sheds where the
conventional layouts can't be fitted in.



Goods trains ain't quite what they used to be if you've seen any of
late;?...

I have, as I drive over the top of Crewe marshalling yard on a regular
basis. It's all containers and bulk now, with a large helping of
maintenance trains, all of which tend to use a fixed formation which
only needs splitting for wagon maintenance.

Thats the point the olde mixed freights are no more part from on a
preserved line;!..

Passenger trains likewise,
they're mostly multiple units of various sorts nowadays.


No fun really;(...

--
Tony Sayer

In article , The Other Mike
scribeth thus
On Mon, 19 Aug 2013 22:06:50 +0100, Nightjar
wrote:

On 19/08/2013 21:36, Tim Streater wrote:
...
And the cost, 10 times that of pylons. Anyone know the highest voltage
they put underground?


The National Grid provides design data for 400kV underground cables, so
presumably they have some of those.

Quite a few of them, some under major cities.

For instance in London, mainly 400kV cables

http://www.nationalgrid.com/NR/rdonl...5FF88A1BB361/4
8551/TQNW.pdf


In the UK the highest voltage is 450kV for the BritNed link (submarine +
underground) There are 500kV underground cables in USA & Canada.

There is / was an overhead only line operating at over 1000kV in Kazakhstan and
there are lots of 765kV lines in North and South America, South Africa, India &
China.



A point is could they have done that when the 400 kV grid was being
built back in the what was it, 50's or 60's?..

--
Tony Sayer

On 20/08/2013 10:29, The Other Mike wrote:

If you block it all the time it won't even know it is on the road. False plates
and it's someone else who gets the bill. Hacked odometer readings and they
can't prove you did the mileage either.


I can stop that if need be, and no I won't say how.

On 19/08/2013 21:43, Nightjar wrote:
On 19/08/2013 20:16, dennis@home wrote:
On 19/08/2013 16:32, Nightjar wrote:


I also can't seem to find the black box that you claim my car is fitted
with, despite having had a lot of the interior out and a lot of the
wiring traced to fit my own black box, so that I can track it.

There are black boxes fitted to many modern cars, there have been court
cases in the US where people have claimed faults in cars caused crashes
but the black box info shows it was driver error. I don't know of any
that use GPS but i dare say the ones with high end sat navs built in
probably do.


The one I fitted uses GPS to give me a feedback of exactly where my car
is at any time, as does the Roadhawk camera I also have. However, the
one I am looking for is the one the OP implies has been fitted by the
manufacturer in order to enable GNSS road pricing.

Colin Bignell

It would only take a firmware update to the ones with nav systems in.
Most people don't know about the data recorded for crash analysis by
common cars. Its not as though they need any extra hardware for most
things, they have shock sensors, speed sensors, brake sensors, etc.
already. Some even have cameras that read road signs, etc.

On 20/08/2013 10:24, The Other Mike wrote:
On Mon, 19 Aug 2013 12:46:01 +0100, "tim....."
wrote:


But you really think that Cameron is persisting with this 50 billion white
elephant because some EU-crat has got to him

He's only supporting it to divert attention from the more serious issue. A
****ed economy and an energy sector in the hands of a load of foreigners with no
intention of investing and where they are actively shutting plant down until the
lights go out.

This county should have at least half a dozen high speed lines by now, at least
five runways at Heathrow, Motorways from Harwich to Birmingham, Sheffield to
Manchester, Hull to Teesside, Southampton to Birmingham, Exeter to Dover the A1
should be motorway standard along its entire length (with all work north of the
border deferred until the Scots are finally defeated)



We don't need to defeat the scotts, just chuck'em out of the country and
finish the wall.

On 20/08/13 09:03, Tim Streater wrote:
In article ,
Andy Burns wrote:

Tim Streater wrote:

And the cost, 10 times that of pylons. Anyone know the highest voltage
they put underground?

"Murphy is one of the UKs leading tunnelling
contractors with a wealth of experience in the design,
construction and fitting out of cable tunnels. We have
successfully delivered a number of high-profile
infrastructure power projects, including the Olympic
Park (132/400kV Cable Tunnels)"

http://www.murphygroup.co.uk/uploads...er%20Brochure/

Power%20Brochure.html#/8/zoomed

So 400kV underground has to be in a tunnel rather than buried?

I wouldn't be surprised

Is that AC? Not sure I'd like to be walking along next to it.

yes, HVDC is only worth doing for seabed or very long cables.


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

On 20/08/13 12:15, tony sayer wrote:
In article , The Other Mike
scribeth thus
On Mon, 19 Aug 2013 22:06:50 +0100, Nightjar
wrote:

On 19/08/2013 21:36, Tim Streater wrote:
...
And the cost, 10 times that of pylons. Anyone know the highest voltage
they put underground?

The National Grid provides design data for 400kV underground cables, so
presumably they have some of those.
Quite a few of them, some under major cities.

For instance in London, mainly 400kV cables

http://www.nationalgrid.com/NR/rdonl...5FF88A1BB361/4
8551/TQNW.pdf


In the UK the highest voltage is 450kV for the BritNed link (submarine +
underground) There are 500kV underground cables in USA & Canada.

There is / was an overhead only line operating at over 1000kV in Kazakhstan and
there are lots of 765kV lines in North and South America, South Africa, India &
China.


A point is could they have done that when the 400 kV grid was being
built back in the what was it, 50's or 60's?..

money.

overhead is cheap. Underground is not.


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

On 20/08/2013 12:45, dennis@home wrote:
....
It would only take a firmware update to the ones with nav systems in.
Most people don't know about the data recorded for crash analysis by
common cars. Its not as though they need any extra hardware for most
things, they have shock sensors, speed sensors, brake sensors, etc.
already. Some even have cameras that read road signs, etc.

Although, if you ask the manufacturer about how good the road sign
cameras are, you won't get a straight answer. I want to know whether it
can tell the difference between a speed limit that applies to my vehicle
and some of the temporary limits that apply to, for example, cars towing
trailers or LGVs on some continental motorways.

Colin Bignell

On 19/08/2013 12:32, Huge wrote:
On 2013-08-19, Road_Hog wrote:

"Nightjar" wrote in message
...

Conspiracy Theories R Us is that way.

Colin Bignell

Colin, don't be a dick all your life, there is no theory, just reality.

You can Google TEN-T if you want. You can see that the EU has ordered the UK
to build HS2, just like they did with HS1. You can Google road tolls and
Rothschilds if you need confirmation. You can Google about the Galileo GPS
system, about European wide road tolls. You can Google about the EU
controlling our roads, railways, air transport and seaways. It's all there,
but you are too lazy just like all the other brain dead X-Factor watching
idiots out there.

[FX]Gets out deckchair. Opens beer.[/]

This could be a goody.


I hope you have a good supply of beer. It looks as though you may have
to wait around a bit for any response to my follow up post.

Colin Bignell

On Tuesday 20 August 2013 13:32 The Natural Philosopher wrote in uk.d-i-y:

On 20/08/13 09:03, Tim Streater wrote:
In article ,
Andy Burns wrote:

Tim Streater wrote:

And the cost, 10 times that of pylons. Anyone know the highest voltage
they put underground?

"Murphy is one of the UKs leading tunnelling
contractors with a wealth of experience in the design,
construction and fitting out of cable tunnels. We have
successfully delivered a number of high-profile
infrastructure power projects, including the Olympic
Park (132/400kV Cable Tunnels)"


http://www.murphygroup.co.uk/uploads...er%20Brochure/

Power%20Brochure.html#/8/zoomed

So 400kV underground has to be in a tunnel rather than buried?

I wouldn't be surprised

Is that AC? Not sure I'd like to be walking along next to it.

yes, HVDC is only worth doing for seabed or very long cables.



And more importantly, where you cannot phase lock both ends...


--
Tim Watts Personal Blog: http://squiddy.blog.dionic.net/

http://www.sensorly.com/ Crowd mapping of 2G/3G/4G mobile signal coverage

Reading this on the web? See:
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Usenet

On Sunday, 18 August 2013 20:50:48 UTC+1, Artic wrote:


Typical view of someone who lives in the south east and couldn't give a

flying **** about the rest of the country beyond Watford.

What's beyond watford then ?

On 20/08/13 13:37, Nightjar wrote:
On 19/08/2013 12:32, Huge wrote:
On 2013-08-19, Road_Hog wrote:

"Nightjar" wrote in message
...

Conspiracy Theories R Us is that way.

Colin Bignell

Colin, don't be a dick all your life, there is no theory, just reality.

You can Google TEN-T if you want. You can see that the EU has
ordered the UK
to build HS2, just like they did with HS1. You can Google road tolls
and
Rothschilds if you need confirmation. You can Google about the
Galileo GPS
system, about European wide road tolls. You can Google about the EU
controlling our roads, railways, air transport and seaways. It's all
there,
but you are too lazy just like all the other brain dead X-Factor
watching
idiots out there.

[FX]Gets out deckchair. Opens beer.[/]

This could be a goody.


I hope you have a good supply of beer. It looks as though you may have
to wait around a bit for any response to my follow up post.

Colin Bignell
The pont is that there is a difference between saying 'X Y Z originates
at EU level' and saying 'its an EU conspiracy'.

Some may say the whole EU project itself is a conspiracy, and there are
sound reasons to give that proposition more than a second glance BUT
what it boils down to is simply bureaucrats chattering together and
doing perfectly legitimaate (by their rules) 'deals' with each other like


"If I toss 60 m euro into a 'gypsy housing' pot for the UK, can you
stick some bloody camp sites up?'

"Sure we always like to get EU money to spend in the UK"


Okay, so far that's not conspiracy, that's not illegal, and its not a
bribe. Its 'European money to solve a European problem'

Then what happens further down the chain is that regional development
agency X (we have regional development agencies, because that's where EU
money goes. Not into county borough or national ordinations, but into
instruments designed to spend EU money on a regional basis) gets tossed
-lets say £2m folding, on the basis its got to be spent on rehousing
gyppos.

Now region X ghas no true Gyppos, but it does have Irish travellers, and
£2m buys a lot of planning officers and consultants, so over to the
county council it goes 'in line with EU policy, you must house 150
traveller families,and there is £2m available (less our bureaucratic
overhead) to do that with'

On a strict NIMBY basis the councillors meet, find a village that no one
on the planning comittee lives in,. pay some consultant half a million
to come up with the right answers and declare that the remainder, now
less than a million will go on developing a site that already has a
traveller family on it. Where there was already planning permissions
granted to have two caravans. All this despitete fact that there are
now, in flagrant violation of the original planning permission, 6
caravans on it, and the original application was only granted because
'me daughter has special needs, she can't live on a site with more than
two caravans as she gets upset by all the people'

The money will be used to develop the site to accommodate 20 caravans
and then GIVEN to the family that owns the land they have breached
planning permission on.

Nothing matters except meeting an EU requirement to spend money and
house gyppos. Where the £1.1 m has gone between the £2m given and the
£900k actually alloted to this project, most of which will end up in the
pockets of certain building firms whose applications to develop never
seem to get refused, is a mystery.

However the Chief executives of the regional and local councils have
both awarded themselvesgenerous pay rises 'because we're worth it; and
are now sporting suntans from a week attending an important conference
on local governance in Cancun, as well as extra PAs who seem to be blood
related, to 'handle the work load of administering these new duties'

And of couserse the legal fees to handle the appeal against planning are
mounting up too. The lawyer has a new Mercedes and a toy private plane now.

Meanwhile Ed Milband is drivelling on about UKIP 'Thes people just
don't understand the way things are done in Europe, THEY JUST DON'T GET IT'

Of course the answer is, we get it only too well. WE just don't WANT it.

We could insread of gettg back the £2m which cost us £4m in te first
place, have spent the same ourselves without EU help. And frankly, if we
had pad the families £900k to **** off and never come back, that would
have been cheaper and better all round. Best of all spend half a million
confiscating all the illegally parked caravans in the UK, and charge
the owners 5 grand apiece to get them back

In the end it boils down to 'do we need a centralised bureaucratic
department in charge of dealing with itinerant chavs on a pan european
basis, and worse, costing us a fortunee to do what we could have done
without them anyay?'

And EU handouts attract grifters like a convent school attracts paedophiles.

IS HS2 a European project? well it fits REMARKABLY exactly into the
lines drawn on a map by the European authority in charge of playing with
train sets.

IS it funded even partially by EU grants? I think it would be
inconceivable if it were not.

Will European firms who have the ears of Brussel Sprouts make anything?
of course they will. Regulation* 54321 is specifically designed to make
UK engineering unable to even bid, whereas having been drawn up by
Reichengineering GMBH to exactly match their tacky products, that's what
will be installed.

You just don't get the way things are done in Europe, do you??

*An EU regulation is simply a legal requirement that is issued from the
EU, and is not debated or rubber stamped by any local government.

The legal basis for the enactment of regulations is Article 288 of the
Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_on_the_Functioning_of_the_European_Union
(formerly Article 249 TEC
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_establishing_the_European_Community).

*Article 288*
/To exercise the Union's competences, the institutions shall adopt
regulations, directives, decisions, recommendations and opinions./

/A regulation shall have general application. It shall be binding in
its entirety and directly applicable in all Member States./

/A directive shall be binding, as to the result to be achieved, upon
each Member State to which it is addressed, but shall leave to the
national authorities the choice of form and methods./

/A decision shall be binding in its entirety upon those to whom it
is addressed./

/Recommendations and opinions shall have no binding force./

You can see for yourself what is covered by 'regulations'

http://www.europeanlawmonitor.org/eu-regulations-2012/

69 of them in 2012 alone right down to
69 COM 2012 2 Proposal on the special schemes for non-established
taxable persons supplying telecommunications services, broadcasting
services or electronic services to non-taxable persons
http://www.europeanlawmonitor.org/eu-regulations-2012/com-2012-2-proposal-on-the-special-schemes-for-non-established-taxable-persons-supplying-telecommunications-services-broadcasting-services-or-electronic-services-to-non-taxable-persons.html

sheesh. That really is a show stopper, what would we do without that one.!

Note that regulations are instantly binding on all member states, there
are no debates over them one enacted centrally , and they cannot be
locally repealed as long as a nation stays within the EU overall treaty
and legal framework.

--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

On 20/08/2013 13:50, whisky-dave wrote:
On Sunday, 18 August 2013 20:50:48 UTC+1, Artic wrote:


Typical view of someone who lives in the south east and couldn't give a

flying **** about the rest of the country beyond Watford.

What's beyond watford then ?

'The NORTH', if I recall the road signs correctly.

Colin Bignell

On 20/08/13 13:40, Tim Watts wrote:
On Tuesday 20 August 2013 13:32 The Natural Philosopher wrote in uk.d-i-y:

On 20/08/13 09:03, Tim Streater wrote:
In article ,
Andy Burns wrote:

Tim Streater wrote:

And the cost, 10 times that of pylons. Anyone know the highest voltage
they put underground?
"Murphy is one of the UKs leading tunnelling
contractors with a wealth of experience in the design,
construction and fitting out of cable tunnels. We have
successfully delivered a number of high-profile
infrastructure power projects, including the Olympic
Park (132/400kV Cable Tunnels)"


http://www.murphygroup.co.uk/uploads...er%20Brochure/
Power%20Brochure.html#/8/zoomed
So 400kV underground has to be in a tunnel rather than buried?
I wouldn't be surprised

Is that AC? Not sure I'd like to be walking along next to it.

yes, HVDC is only worth doing for seabed or very long cables.


And more importantly, where you cannot phase lock both ends...


No. in the case of seabed stuff the capacitance to ground gives them a
lousy power factor. They need to be DC to avoid that.

Plenty of offshore HVDC links are done within one grid phase area.

phasing could easily be solved by reconverting AC to AC through an
inverter. That's not the reason to go DC which is PURELY to reduce long
line/high capacitance cable losses.

--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

On Tue, 20 Aug 2013 09:03:45 +0100, Tim Streater
wrote:

In article ,
Andy Burns wrote:

Tim Streater wrote:

And the cost, 10 times that of pylons. Anyone know the highest voltage
they put underground?

"Murphy is one of the UK’s leading tunnelling
contractors with a wealth of experience in the design,
construction and fitting out of cable tunnels. We have
successfully delivered a number of high-profile
infrastructure power projects, including the Olympic
Park (132/400kV Cable Tunnels)"

http://www.murphygroup.co.uk/uploads...er%20Brochure/
Power%20Brochure.html#/8/zoomed

So 400kV underground has to be in a tunnel rather than buried? Is that
AC? Not sure I'd like to be walking along next to it.

In rural areas they will almost all all be direct buried. In urban areas for
new installations it is more likely to be in a dedicated bored tunnel now. In
the past they just dug up the road, backfilled with sand and laid the cables.
Most of Sheffield is cabled this way at 275kV. A few cable routes have used
existing infrastructure such as old railway tunnels and canal towpaths.

There is no problem with being in physical contact with the sheath of 400kV
undercround cables either at AC or DC its just like large bore water pipe. Just
do it by hand rather than with a JCB.

--

On Tue, 20 Aug 2013 02:21:12 +0100, "Road_Hog" wrote:


"charles" wrote in message
. ..

Fly: Public transport to Heathrow 1.5 hours check in time +2hrs, flight
time 1hr, wait for luggage 0.5 hr, public transport to city centre (it
might be quicker by tram) 0.75 hr. that's nearly 6 hours.

--

Oh do **** off, who in their right mind would rather take the train, than
fly that distance.

Back in the day when I travelled a lot, they wanted the same money for a
train fron London to Newcastle, as they did for a business class flight (on
BMI), which included access to the lounge, free beer and a bit of food,
whereas rail travel got you a cup of tea and biccies.

Over the past 25 years or so trains have got a bit slower on the east coast main
line, but flights are also slower and often this is not just check in and
security. When you see some of the routing you begin to understand why flying
can be so painfully slow, with a massive increase in distance flown over the
point to point distance 100mph average journey speeds in a aircraft capable of
more than 500mph is a disgrace.

--

On Tue, 20 Aug 2013 12:15:01 +0100, tony sayer wrote:

In article , The Other Mike
scribeth thus
On Mon, 19 Aug 2013 22:06:50 +0100, Nightjar
wrote:

On 19/08/2013 21:36, Tim Streater wrote:
...
And the cost, 10 times that of pylons. Anyone know the highest voltage
they put underground?


The National Grid provides design data for 400kV underground cables, so
presumably they have some of those.

Quite a few of them, some under major cities.

For instance in London, mainly 400kV cables

http://www.nationalgrid.com/NR/rdonl...5FF88A1BB361/4
8551/TQNW.pdf


In the UK the highest voltage is 450kV for the BritNed link (submarine +
underground) There are 500kV underground cables in USA & Canada.

There is / was an overhead only line operating at over 1000kV in Kazakhstan and
there are lots of 765kV lines in North and South America, South Africa, India &
China.



A point is could they have done that when the 400 kV grid was being
built back in the what was it, 50's or 60's?..

The distances in the UK don't justify any higher voltages and at the time of
original deployment each voltage level was approaching what was achievable in
practice.

275kV is early 50's, 400kV is more 60's and 70's Some switchgear at 400kV
originally had lots of problems requiring regular inspection and preventative
maintenance. Now it more or less just works for a decade before any
inspection. Pity it's all imported from Europe than home produced though.

--

On 20/08/13 14:49, Tim Streater wrote:
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On a strict NIMBY basis the councillors meet, find a village that no one
on the planning comittee lives in,. pay some consultant half a million
to come up with the right answers and declare that the remainder, now
less than a million will go on developing a site that already has a
traveller family on it. Where there was already planning permissions
granted to have two caravans. All this despitete fact that there are
now, in flagrant violation of the original planning permission, 6
caravans on it, and the original application was only granted because
'me daughter has special needs, she can't live on a site with more than
two caravans as she gets upset by all the people'

The money will be used to develop the site to accommodate 20 caravans
and then GIVEN to the family that owns the land they have breached
planning permission on.

Smithy Fen?

no...

--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

On Tue, 20 Aug 2013 14:25:37 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

The pont is that there is a difference between saying 'X Y Z originates
at EU level' and saying 'its an EU conspiracy'.
....
And of couserse the legal fees to handle the appeal against planning are
mounting up too. The lawyer has a new Mercedes and a toy private plane now.

An interesting scenario, and it may even be true, but so what if it
is? The corruption described above nearly all took place IN THIS
COUNTRY, WITHIN OUR SYSTEM OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT!

Meanwhile Ed Milband is drivelling on about UKIP 'Thes people just
don't understand the way things are done in Europe, THEY JUST DON'T GET IT'

Of course the answer is, we get it only too well. WE just don't WANT it.

But you are going to get it whether we are in Europe or not. The EU
may have been the source of the above funding, but the corruption took
place HERE. In a country that, over my long life, has produced John
Poulson, cash for questions being asked in the House, cash for (prime)
ministerial access, former cabinet ministers later convicted of
perjury committed while holding office, etc, etc, the idea that all
corruption somehow stems from our membership EU is an absurdity that
only blinkered and brain-washed members of a neo-nazi party could
possibly believe. It's UKIP's equivalent of Hitler's Jew bashing.

And EU handouts attract grifters like a convent school attracts paedophiles.

The same way UKIP attracts people like yourself, in fact.

IS it funded even partially by EU grants? I think it would be
inconceivable if it were not.

But you don't give any proof, you just assume, because it fits your
Little Englander viewpoint.

69 of them in 2012 alone right down to
69 COM 2012 2 Proposal on the special schemes for non-established
taxable persons supplying telecommunications services, broadcasting
services or electronic services to non-taxable persons
http://www.europeanlawmonitor.org/eu...pecial-schemes
-for-non-established-taxable-persons-supplying-telecommunications-services-broadcasting-services-or
-electronic-services-to-non-taxable-persons.html

sheesh. That really is a show stopper, what would we do without that one.!

I take it you don't understand it. If I have, it's about cutting
red-tape by, in certain limited proscribed circumstances, avoiding the
need for a business to register for VAT in each individual EU country,
and instead being able to register in only one. Try this for a
slightly more every day explanation:
http://ebiz.pwc.com/2013/03/eu-mini-...15-the-basics/

--
================================================== =======
Please always reply to ng as the email in this post's
header does not exist. Or use a contact address at:
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http://www.macfh.co.uk/Macfarlane/Macfarlane.html

On 20/08/2013 14:25, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
....

You can see for yourself what is covered by 'regulations'

http://www.europeanlawmonitor.org/eu-regulations-2012/

69 of them in 2012 alone

As compared to 3328 Statutory Instruments produced by the Parliament at
Westminster in 2012. So 2% of our legislation of that type came from the
EU and, so far as I can see from the list, it all dealt with things that
needed to have a uniform approach across the whole EU.

right down to
69 COM 2012 2 Proposal on the special schemes for non-established
taxable persons supplying telecommunications services, broadcasting
services or electronic services to non-taxable persons
http://www.europeanlawmonitor.org/eu-regulations-2012/com-2012-2-proposal-on-the-special-schemes-for-non-established-taxable-persons-supplying-telecommunications-services-broadcasting-services-or-electronic-services-to-non-taxable-persons.html

sheesh. That really is a show stopper, what would we do without that one.!

If you are in the business of supplying the relevant goods to consumers
across the EU, a lot more paperwork. It is part of the process of making
a common market work, which is something we, as a country, have agreed
is within the remit of the EU.

Colin Bignell

On 20/08/13 15:41, Nightjar wrote:
On 20/08/2013 14:25, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
...

You can see for yourself what is covered by 'regulations'

http://www.europeanlawmonitor.org/eu-regulations-2012/

69 of them in 2012 alone

As compared to 3328 Statutory Instruments produced by the Parliament
at Westminster in 2012. So 2% of our legislation of that type came
from the EU and, so far as I can see from the list, it all dealt with
things that needed to have a uniform approach across the whole EU.

right down to
69 COM 2012 2 Proposal on the special schemes for non-established
taxable persons supplying telecommunications services, broadcasting
services or electronic services to non-taxable persons
http://www.europeanlawmonitor.org/eu-regulations-2012/com-2012-2-proposal-on-the-special-schemes-for-non-established-taxable-persons-supplying-telecommunications-services-broadcasting-services-or-electronic-services-to-non-taxable-persons.html


sheesh. That really is a show stopper, what would we do without that
one.!

If you are in the business of supplying the relevant goods to
consumers across the EU, a lot more paperwork. It is part of the
process of making a common market work, which is something we, as a
country, have agreed is within the remit of the EU.


Except we as a country, never agreed.

Colin Bignell



--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

On 20/08/2013 16:48, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 20/08/13 15:41, Nightjar wrote:
On 20/08/2013 14:25, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
...

You can see for yourself what is covered by 'regulations'

http://www.europeanlawmonitor.org/eu-regulations-2012/

69 of them in 2012 alone

As compared to 3328 Statutory Instruments produced by the Parliament
at Westminster in 2012. So 2% of our legislation of that type came
from the EU and, so far as I can see from the list, it all dealt with
things that needed to have a uniform approach across the whole EU.

right down to
69 COM 2012 2 Proposal on the special schemes for non-established
taxable persons supplying telecommunications services, broadcasting
services or electronic services to non-taxable persons
http://www.europeanlawmonitor.org/eu-regulations-2012/com-2012-2-proposal-on-the-special-schemes-for-non-established-taxable-persons-supplying-telecommunications-services-broadcasting-services-or-electronic-services-to-non-taxable-persons.html


sheesh. That really is a show stopper, what would we do without that
one.!

If you are in the business of supplying the relevant goods to
consumers across the EU, a lot more paperwork. It is part of the
process of making a common market work, which is something we, as a
country, have agreed is within the remit of the EU.


Except we as a country, never agreed.

Our elected representatives agreed, so the country agreed, irrespective
of whether some citizens disagreed. That is how our democracy works.

Colin Bignell

On 20/08/2013 18:19, Tim Streater wrote:
In article ,
Nightjar wrote:

On 20/08/2013 16:48, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 20/08/13 15:41, Nightjar wrote:
On 20/08/2013 14:25, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
...

You can see for yourself what is covered by 'regulations'

http://www.europeanlawmonitor.org/eu-regulations-2012/

69 of them in 2012 alone

As compared to 3328 Statutory Instruments produced by the Parliament
at Westminster in 2012. So 2% of our legislation of that type came
from the EU and, so far as I can see from the list, it all dealt with
things that needed to have a uniform approach across the whole EU.

right down to
69 COM 2012 2 Proposal on the special schemes for non-established
taxable persons supplying telecommunications services, broadcasting
services or electronic services to non-taxable persons

http://www.europeanlawmonitor.org/eu...012-2-proposal


-on-the-special-schemes-for-non-established-taxable-persons-supplying-tele


communications-services-broadcasting-services-or-electronic-services-to-no

n-taxable-persons.html

sheesh. That really is a show stopper, what would we do without that
one.!

If you are in the business of supplying the relevant goods to
consumers across the EU, a lot more paperwork. It is part of the
process of making a common market work, which is something we, as a
country, have agreed is within the remit of the EU.

Except we as a country, never agreed.

Our elected representatives agreed, so the country agreed,
irrespective of whether some citizens disagreed. That is how our
democracy works.

I'd say no government has the right (whether in their manifesto or not)
to give away sovereignty.

Indeed. That is the prerogative of Parliament.

They're elected to operate a government under
the existing rules.

Which are that a political party publishes a manifesto in an attempt to
sway floating voters. If elected, they are then expected to turn the
manifesto into legislation that is put before Parliament. If Parliament
accepts the legislation, possibly modified, then it becomes law.

They can suggest it and put it to a referendum. This
is what ought to have happened every time including when Grocer Heath
got us in.

There are serious disadvantages to a referendum. Not least being that
the turnout is often well below that of a General Election, so it is
even less representative of public opinion than an election. There is
also the question of whether the people are likely to understand the
issues and make an informed decision or whether they will be guided by
political leanings or media rhetoric. On the plus side, a referendum
allows an unpopular decision to be made without blame being levelled at
the government or dividing it. There is also the faint hope for those
who have no other realistic hope of success, that the inherent faults of
the referendum will result in a decision that a well-informed majority
would never reach.

Colin Bignell

On 20/08/2013 23:11, Nightjar wrote:

There are serious disadvantages to a referendum. Not least being that
the turnout is often well below that of a General Election, so it is
even less representative of public opinion than an election. There is
also the question of whether the people are likely to understand the
issues and make an informed decision or whether they will be guided by
political leanings or media rhetoric. On the plus side, a referendum
allows an unpopular decision to be made without blame being levelled at
the government or dividing it. There is also the faint hope for those
who have no other realistic hope of success, that the inherent faults of
the referendum will result in a decision that a well-informed majority
would never reach.

Indeed there are major problems with referenda - not least that
governments will carefully word them, produce carefully designed
information and ignore other information, to get the result that they
want. Look at the "Common Market" referendum. If all that fails, they'll
have another go until they get the "right" answer. Look at the Irish
currency referendum.

SteveW

On 20/08/2013 23:38, Tim Streater wrote:
In article ,
Nightjar wrote:

On 20/08/2013 18:19, Tim Streater wrote:
In article ,
Nightjar wrote:

On 20/08/2013 16:48, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Except we as a country, never agreed.

Our elected representatives agreed, so the country agreed,
irrespective of whether some citizens disagreed. That is how our
democracy works.

I'd say no government has the right (whether in their manifesto or not)
to give away sovereignty.

Indeed. That is the prerogative of Parliament.

Oh come. You know what I mean. Parliament may do it but that is not why
we elect MPs. We elect them to run the country under the existing
framework.

We elect them in the hope that they will do at least some of the things
they promised to do in their manifesto.

For even Parliament to give away our sovereignty without a
referendum is an abuse of power.

It is not as Parliament is not, in any way, bound to consult the people
in making its decisions and it is the ultimate arbiter of what its
powers are.

Colin Bignell

On Tue, 20 Aug 2013 09:29:29 +0100, Tim Lamb wrote:

Ah! You have until October this year to register your mineral rights
with the Land Registry:-)

No chance, the Land Registry record has:

"The mines and minerals together with ancillary powers of working are
excepted with provision for compensation in the event of damage
caused thereby."

Having had a dig about on the LR site, just in case, we'd need
documentary evidence of our right to the mines and minerals. That
doesn't exist.

The land around here was forfieted by James Radcliffe, 3rd Earl of
Derwen****er after the 1715 uprising. In 1735 George II granted the
estates and mineral rights to the Greenwich Hospital. The GH issued
mining and mineral leases to a range of companies from then on. Who
actually has the rights I don't know(*) but it ain't us...

(*) Presumably Minco have a lease.

--
Cheers
Dave.

law.

They can suggest it and put it to a referendum. This
is what ought to have happened every time including when Grocer Heath
got us in.

There are serious disadvantages to a referendum. Not least being that the
turnout is often well below that of a General Election, so it is even less
representative of public opinion than an election. There is also the
question of whether the people are likely to understand the issues and
make an informed decision or whether they will be guided by political
leanings or media rhetoric. On the plus side, a referendum allows an
unpopular decision to be made without blame being levelled at the
government or dividing it. There is also the faint hope for those who have
no other realistic hope of success, that the inherent faults of the
referendum will result in a decision that a well-informed majority would
never reach.

Colin Bignell

Oh? And you think politicians are that smart?
They are only there to line their own pockets by and large.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parliam...eignty#History

In message o.uk, Dave
Liquorice writes
On Tue, 20 Aug 2013 09:29:29 +0100, Tim Lamb wrote:

Ah! You have until October this year to register your mineral rights
with the Land Registry:-)

No chance, the Land Registry record has:

"The mines and minerals together with ancillary powers of working are
excepted with provision for compensation in the event of damage
caused thereby."

Having had a dig about on the LR site, just in case, we'd need
documentary evidence of our right to the mines and minerals. That
doesn't exist.

The land around here was forfieted by James Radcliffe, 3rd Earl of
Derwen****er after the 1715 uprising. In 1735 George II granted the
estates and mineral rights to the Greenwich Hospital. The GH issued
mining and mineral leases to a range of companies from then on. Who
actually has the rights I don't know(*) but it ain't us...

(*) Presumably Minco have a lease.

Oh well:-)

Redland Aggregates -LaFarge-Tarmac retained ours when they sold the
freehold to us.

On land elsewhere, as far as I know, we have the rights but who knows
what the Church Commissioners, inclosure acts or local lordships amount
to:-(


--
Tim Lamb

On 21/08/2013 06:53, harryagain wrote:
....
Oh? And you think politicians are that smart?...

90% of MPs are university graduates and more than a quarter went to
Oxford or Cambridge.

Colin Bignell

On 21/08/13 09:13, Nightjar wrote:
On 21/08/2013 06:53, harryagain wrote:
...
Oh? And you think politicians are that smart?...

90% of MPs are university graduates and more than a quarter went to
Oxford or Cambridge.


Oddly for harry, the point still stands...

Colin Bignell


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

On Tue, 20 Aug 2013 15:10:34 +0100, Tim Streater
wrote:

In article ,

There is no problem with being in physical contact with the sheath of 400kV
undercround cables either at AC or DC its just like large bore water pipe.
Just do it by hand rather than with a JCB.

Well quite. But is the cable metal-sheathed?

Armoured and then a non conductive sheath


--

On 21/08/13 10:30, The Other Mike wrote:
On Tue, 20 Aug 2013 15:10:34 +0100, Tim Streater
wrote:

In article ,
There is no problem with being in physical contact with the sheath of 400kV
undercround cables either at AC or DC its just like large bore water pipe.
Just do it by hand rather than with a JCB.
Well quite. But is the cable metal-sheathed?
Armoured and then a non conductive sheath


whether there is a problem or not, detectable magnet and electrostatic
fields will exist outside the cable.

3 phase armoured cables are NOT buried as a balanced three wire plus
ground arrangement - not the11KV one's under my garden anyway.


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

On 21/08/2013 09:52, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 21/08/13 09:13, Nightjar wrote:
On 21/08/2013 06:53, harryagain wrote:
...
Oh? And you think politicians are that smart?...

90% of MPs are university graduates and more than a quarter went to
Oxford or Cambridge.


Oddly for harry, the point still stands...

While I agree that graduates don't always show a lot of common sense -
some even think we ought not to be in the EU - I would expect a mix like
that to be much better informed about the issues than a random member of
Joe Public.

Colin Bignell