On Wed, 03 Jul 2013 20:52:15 +0000, Bob Eager wrote:

Of course, the costs haven't changed - it's just that the student pays
rather than the taxpayer

The students are *supposed* to pay, but the overwhelming expectation is
that the student's parents pay. I've never seen newspaper articles on
"how to pay your university fees", but piles and piles of "how to pay
your child's university fees".

The fact remains is that {students,parents} now pay all of it rather
than about a third, and the government pays nothing rather than two
thirds.

Umm, no.

Courses are still heavily subsidised for UK students. The exact amount of
subsidy obviously varies from course to course, institution to
institution, but it's still there. If it wasn't, then overseas students
would be paying £9k, too. They aren't - they pay a lot more - and
universities NEED to attract them for that funding, to help with
subsidising UK students. Even then, universities require a lot of other
funding to not collapse financially.

Given that the number of students at university has exploded in the last
few decades, was it really sustainable to expect government to support
them all to the same extent?

On Wed, 03 Jul 2013 20:52:15 +0000, Bob Eager wrote:

Of course, the costs haven't changed - it's just that the student pays
rather than the taxpayer

The students are *supposed* to pay, but the overwhelming expectation is
that the student's parents pay. I've never seen newspaper articles on
"how to pay your university fees", but piles and piles of "how to pay
your child's university fees".

The fact remains is that {students,parents} now pay all of it rather
than about a third, and the government pays nothing rather than two
thirds.

Umm, no.

Courses are still heavily subsidised for UK students. The exact amount of
subsidy obviously varies from course to course, institution to
institution, but it's still there. If it wasn't, then overseas students
would be paying £9k, too. They aren't - they pay a lot more - and
universities NEED to attract them for that funding, to help with
subsidising UK students. Even then, universities require a lot of other
funding to not collapse financially.

Given that the number of students at university has exploded in the last
few decades, was it really sustainable to expect government to support
them all to the same extent?

In article ,
Adrian wrote:
On Wed, 03 Jul 2013 20:52:15 +0000, Bob Eager wrote:

Of course, the costs haven't changed - it's just that the student pays
rather than the taxpayer

The students are *supposed* to pay, but the overwhelming expectation is
that the student's parents pay. I've never seen newspaper articles on
"how to pay your university fees", but piles and piles of "how to pay
your child's university fees".

The fact remains is that {students,parents} now pay all of it rather
than about a third, and the government pays nothing rather than two
thirds.

Umm, no.

Courses are still heavily subsidised for UK students. The exact amount of
subsidy obviously varies from course to course, institution to
institution, but it's still there. If it wasn't, then overseas students
would be paying £9k, too. They aren't - they pay a lot more - and
universities NEED to attract them for that funding, to help with
subsidising UK students. Even then, universities require a lot of other
funding to not collapse financially.

Given that the number of students at university has exploded in the last
few decades, was it really sustainable to expect government to support
them all to the same extent?

well. it was successive Governments that encouraged technical colleges, art
colleges, etc, to become Universities.

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

On 03/07/2013 22:00, Adrian wrote:
On Wed, 03 Jul 2013 20:52:15 +0000, Bob Eager wrote:

Of course, the costs haven't changed - it's just that the
student pays rather than the taxpayer

The students are *supposed* to pay, but the overwhelming
expectation is that the student's parents pay. I've never seen
newspaper articles on "how to pay your university fees", but
piles and piles of "how to pay your child's university fees".

The fact remains is that {students,parents} now pay all of it
rather than about a third, and the government pays nothing rather
than two thirds.

Umm, no.

Courses are still heavily subsidised for UK students.


No they're not!!

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/n...6-000-run.html

I have also read that the contact time between university and students
is alarmingly few hours and so real tuition fees per hour are astronomical.

UK Universities do not represent good value for money for students!

On 03/07/2013 09:20, Tim Lamb wrote:
In message , Farmer
Giles writes
On 02/07/2013 18:38, ARW wrote:
They will rise from £2.65 per hour to £2.68 per hour. That's a whole
£1.20 a
week extra for working a 40 hour week.

Would you still want your child to take an apprenticeship?




When I was an apprentice in the early sixties I got just over £2.00
per week - and we worked from 8.30am until 6.00pm Monday to Friday,
and until 1.00pm on Saturday. In comparison - even taking inflation
into account - £107 per week seems not too bad.

£4-8/- a week for an electrical engineering apprentice 1960. There may
have been a slight element of London weighting.


That seems quite high for those days - although, as you said, it was in
London. In fact I got £2 and six shillings per week, but that was after
deductions - which weren't very much, my gross wage was certainly less
than £3.00 (I think £2-15/-). I used to cycle 8 miles to work and 8
miles back, because I couldn't afford the bus fare - happy days!

On Wed, 03 Jul 2013 22:07:07 +0100, charles wrote:

Given that the number of students at university has exploded in the
last few decades, was it really sustainable to expect government to
support them all to the same extent?

well. it was successive Governments that encouraged technical colleges,
art colleges, etc, to become Universities.

Yes, I know. I spent three years at a building that said "Polytechnic" on
the front, took final exams on paper that said "Polytechnic" on the top,
and got a degree certificate that said "University" on the top. That was
over twenty years ago.

But, even with that taken into account, there are STILL a ****load more
people in tertiary education than there ever were.

On Wed, 03 Jul 2013 21:01:05 +0000, Adrian wrote:

(although we didn't need to hear it three times!)

On Wed, 03 Jul 2013 20:52:15 +0000, Bob Eager wrote:

Of course, the costs haven't changed - it's just that the student
pays rather than the taxpayer

The students are *supposed* to pay, but the overwhelming expectation
is that the student's parents pay. I've never seen newspaper articles
on "how to pay your university fees", but piles and piles of "how to
pay your child's university fees".

The fact remains is that {students,parents} now pay all of it rather
than about a third, and the government pays nothing rather than two
thirds.

Umm, no.

Courses are still heavily subsidised for UK students.

But not from direct government input. From overseas fees, and lots of
other income that universities have to compete for.

Given that the number of students at university has exploded in the last
few decades, was it really sustainable to expect government to support
them all to the same extent?

The mistake was exploding the numbers in the first place without putting
adequate funding in place.



--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
My posts (including this one) are my copyright and if @diy_forums on
Twitter wish to tweet them they can pay me £30 a post
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

On Wed, 03 Jul 2013 22:07:07 +0100, charles wrote:

Given that the number of students at university has exploded in the
last few decades, was it really sustainable to expect government to
support them all to the same extent?

well. it was successive Governments that encouraged technical colleges,
art colleges, etc, to become Universities.

Yes, I know. I spent three years at a building that said "Polytechnic" on
the front, took final exams on paper that said "Polytechnic" on the top,
and got a degree certificate that said "University" on the top. That was
over twenty years ago.

But, even with that taken into account, there are STILL a ****load more
people in tertiary education than there ever were.

On Wed, 03 Jul 2013 22:14:28 +0100, Fredxx wrote:

Umm, no.

Courses are still heavily subsidised for UK students.

No they're not!!

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk

Daily Mail. Say no more.

On Wed, 03 Jul 2013 22:14:28 +0100, Fredxx wrote:

Umm, no.

Courses are still heavily subsidised for UK students.

No they're not!!

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk

Daily Mail. Say no more.

On Wed, 03 Jul 2013 22:14:28 +0100, Fredxx wrote:

Umm, no.

Courses are still heavily subsidised for UK students.

No they're not!!

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk

Daily Mail. Say no more.

In message , Farmer
Giles writes
On 03/07/2013 09:20, Tim Lamb wrote:
In message , Farmer
Giles writes
On 02/07/2013 18:38, ARW wrote:
They will rise from £2.65 per hour to £2.68 per hour. That's a whole
£1.20 a
week extra for working a 40 hour week.

Would you still want your child to take an apprenticeship?




When I was an apprentice in the early sixties I got just over £2.00
per week - and we worked from 8.30am until 6.00pm Monday to Friday,
and until 1.00pm on Saturday. In comparison - even taking inflation
into account - £107 per week seems not too bad.

£4-8/- a week for an electrical engineering apprentice 1960. There may
have been a slight element of London weighting.


That seems quite high for those days - although, as you said, it was in
London. In fact I got £2 and six shillings per week, but that was after
deductions - which weren't very much, my gross wage was certainly less
than £3.00 (I think £2-15/-). I used to cycle 8 miles to work and 8
miles back, because I couldn't afford the bus fare - happy days!

Actually St. Albans but the Company had originated from London.


--
Tim Lamb

"Farmer Giles" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 03/07/2013 09:20, Tim Lamb wrote:
In message , Farmer
Giles writes
On 02/07/2013 18:38, ARW wrote:
They will rise from £2.65 per hour to £2.68 per hour. That's a whole
£1.20 a
week extra for working a 40 hour week.

Would you still want your child to take an apprenticeship?




When I was an apprentice in the early sixties I got just over £2.00
per week - and we worked from 8.30am until 6.00pm Monday to Friday,
and until 1.00pm on Saturday. In comparison - even taking inflation
into account - £107 per week seems not too bad.

£4-8/- a week for an electrical engineering apprentice 1960. There may
have been a slight element of London weighting.


That seems quite high for those days - although, as you said, it was in
London. In fact I got £2 and six shillings per week, but that was after
deductions - which weren't very much, my gross wage was certainly less
than £3.00 (I think £2-15/-). I used to cycle 8 miles to work and 8 miles
back, because I couldn't afford the bus fare - happy days!


My first wage as an apprentice in 1970, was £6-8/6d

Arfa

"Adrian" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 03 Jul 2013 22:07:07 +0100, charles wrote:

Given that the number of students at university has exploded in the
last few decades, was it really sustainable to expect government to
support them all to the same extent?

well. it was successive Governments that encouraged technical colleges,
art colleges, etc, to become Universities.

Yes, I know. I spent three years at a building that said "Polytechnic" on
the front, took final exams on paper that said "Polytechnic" on the top,
and got a degree certificate that said "University" on the top. That was
over twenty years ago.

But, even with that taken into account, there are STILL a ****load more
people in tertiary education than there ever were.


Or ever should be ...

Arfa

"Fredxx" wrote in message
...
On 03/07/2013 22:00, Adrian wrote:
On Wed, 03 Jul 2013 20:52:15 +0000, Bob Eager wrote:

Of course, the costs haven't changed - it's just that the
student pays rather than the taxpayer

The students are *supposed* to pay, but the overwhelming
expectation is that the student's parents pay. I've never seen
newspaper articles on "how to pay your university fees", but
piles and piles of "how to pay your child's university fees".

The fact remains is that {students,parents} now pay all of it
rather than about a third, and the government pays nothing rather
than two thirds.

Umm, no.

Courses are still heavily subsidised for UK students.


No they're not!!

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/n...6-000-run.html

I have also read that the contact time between university and students
is alarmingly few hours and so real tuition fees per hour are
astronomical.

UK Universities do not represent good value for money for students!

I would go along with that. My daughter received just a few hours per week
of 'tuition', and even that was pretty variable. She also had to pay for all
materials used as part of the course, and also for the use of some
university facilities and exhibition space within the university. Most of
her 'lecturers' were actually part time people who worked doing their own
thing, outside of the university system. We felt that the entire thing was a
cynical ripoff, and that her course could have been completed in little more
than a year, if the tuition levels were what they were 30 years ago. The
whole university thing has, IMHO, become a travesty, which is now about a
teenage right of passage rather than real-world advanced education in the
case of most of the 'new' universities. Many of the courses offered are in
nonsense subjects that are never going to be the slightest use to the
student - except to say at the end of it that they've "got a degree", and
the fact that they drag these courses out to three years, is criminal
gravy-training ...

Arfa

"Adrian" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 03 Jul 2013 22:14:28 +0100, Fredxx wrote:

Umm, no.

Courses are still heavily subsidised for UK students.

No they're not!!

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk

Daily Mail. Say no more.


Why do your posts keep appearing multiply ?

Arfa

On 04/07/2013 02:19, Arfa Daily wrote:

I would go along with that. My daughter received just a few hours per
week of 'tuition', and even that was pretty variable. She also had to
pay for all materials used as part of the course, and also for the use
of some university facilities and exhibition space within the
university. Most of her 'lecturers' were actually part time people who
worked doing their own thing, outside of the university system. We felt
that the entire thing was a cynical ripoff, and that her course could
have been completed in little more than a year, if the tuition levels
were what they were 30 years ago. The whole university thing has, IMHO,
become a travesty, which is now about a teenage right of passage rather
than real-world advanced education in the case of most of the 'new'
universities. Many of the courses offered are in nonsense subjects that
are never going to be the slightest use to the student - except to say
at the end of it that they've "got a degree", and the fact that they
drag these courses out to three years, is criminal gravy-training ...

Where was this course?

On Wednesday 03 July 2013 21:52 Bob Eager wrote in uk.d-i-y:

On Wed, 03 Jul 2013 13:08:24 -0700, jgh wrote:

Bob Eager wrote:
Of course, the costs haven't changed - it's just that the student pays
rather than the taxpayer

The students are *supposed* to pay, but the overwhelming expectation is
that the student's parents pay. I've never seen newspaper articles on
"how to pay your university fees", but piles and piles of "how to pay
your child's university fees".

The fact remains is that {students,parents} now pay all of it rather than
about a third, and the government pays nothing rather than two thirds.

As for the parents paying - that's daft, because there is no real
incentive to pay fees (or the repayments thereof) *at least* until
graduation.

But it sells papers I suppose.

Perhaps you can help me here Bob (my dept has no undergrads so I don't have
any contact with this side of things)

1) Fees are paid by student loan with fairly easy repayment terms - I'm
pretty clear about this part;

2) How does cost of living/rent work? My limited understanding was that was
means tested with the possibility of the government paying some - but for 2
working parents, it was likley the government contribution is more or less
zero?

3) If (2) is there a different type of student loan similar to (1) that can
be obtained?

2/3 was the bit I thought parents ended up paying unless darling Willoughby
was of a mind to take 3 part time MacDonalds and evening pub jobs on to pay
his own way (which is one of the typical newspaper lines).

Cheers,

Tim

--
Tim Watts Personal Blog: http://squiddy.blog.dionic.net/

http://www.sensorly.com/ Crowd mapping of 2G/3G/4G mobile signal coverage

Reading this on the web? See:
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Tim Watts wrote:

2/3 was the bit I thought parents ended up paying unless darling Willoughby
was of a mind to take 3 part time MacDonalds and evening pub jobs on to pay
his own way (which is one of the typical newspaper lines).

If its any help, my grandson whose parents make very little money and who
can just about get by with assistance from the bank of mum and dad gets
nothing.

He pays his own way by working all weekend and most evenings as a
warehouseman in a cash and carry warehouse. He also works during the week.
He's taking a computer science degree and I don't know how he finds the
time to study as well as support himself. His girlfriend is in much the
same boat. Her family aren't wealthy, living just above minimum wage. She's
working most evenings in a fast food "restaurant" to pay her way.

--
€¢DarWin|
_/ _/

On Wednesday 03 July 2013 22:01 Adrian wrote in uk.d-i-y:

Given that the number of students at university has exploded in the last
few decades, was it really sustainable to expect government to support
them all to the same extent?

Well, this is back to my pet peeve. We should have stuck with less students
prefereably doing solid degree courses. But all means attract the foreign
students.

Now that we are in the mess of having a lot of perfectly interesting but
effectively useless (in term sof being able to do anything much productive
with them afterwards) my take is that we should be offering grants for
engineering, science and core arts. If you want to do "film in the 1950's",
pay for it yourself.

The reason I include core arts as productive is that is what certain civil
servants, journalists and teachers may have traditionally taken,
particularly English, History, Economics or a foreign language. And by god
the newspapers would be better off with journalists holding a range of
proper degrees.

The remaining problem is: what to do with everyone else? The days of entry
level apprenticeships at the Post Office (telephones), GEC and the BBC are
gone, much for the worse. There are a *lot* of people who are smart and can
make a good career the old way without academic qualifications.

--
Tim Watts Personal Blog: http://squiddy.blog.dionic.net/

http://www.sensorly.com/ Crowd mapping of 2G/3G/4G mobile signal coverage

Reading this on the web? See:
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Usenet

On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 08:27:30 +0100, Tim Watts wrote:

Perhaps you can help me here Bob (my dept has no undergrads so I don't
have any contact with this side of things)

1) Fees are paid by student loan with fairly easy repayment terms - I'm
pretty clear about this part;

2) How does cost of living/rent work?

The student pays it out of 1, plus whatever they earn in a part time job
or three. Unless they've ****ed their loan up the wall, and can't be arsed
to work, in which case it comes down to the parents.

A bit like real life, really, but for the fact that the loan has to be
paid back out of their future earnings.

On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 08:27:30 +0100, Tim Watts wrote:

Perhaps you can help me here Bob (my dept has no undergrads so I don't
have any contact with this side of things)

1) Fees are paid by student loan with fairly easy repayment terms - I'm
pretty clear about this part;

2) How does cost of living/rent work?

The student pays it out of 1, plus whatever they earn in a part time job
or three. Unless they've ****ed their loan up the wall, and can't be arsed
to work, in which case it comes down to the parents.

A bit like real life, really, but for the fact that the loan has to be
paid back out of their future earnings.

On Wednesday 03 July 2013 22:14 Fredxx wrote in uk.d-i-y:


No they're not!!

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/n.../How-students-
charged-9-000-tuition-fees-courses-really-cost-just-6-000-run.html

I have also read that the contact time between university and students
is alarmingly few hours and so real tuition fees per hour are
astronomical.

UK Universities do not represent good value for money for students!

When I was at York Uni in 1986, we have 90 odd UG's per year and tutorial
groups of about 6. there were regular supervisor (overall tutor) meetings
too.

It's one of the reasons I chose York, over say, Southampton who really did
not seem to have their act together at the time.



--
Tim Watts Personal Blog: http://squiddy.blog.dionic.net/

http://www.sensorly.com/ Crowd mapping of 2G/3G/4G mobile signal coverage

Reading this on the web? See:
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Usenet

On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 08:27:30 +0100, Tim Watts wrote:

Perhaps you can help me here Bob (my dept has no undergrads so I don't
have any contact with this side of things)

1) Fees are paid by student loan with fairly easy repayment terms - I'm
pretty clear about this part;

2) How does cost of living/rent work?

The student pays it out of 1, plus whatever they earn in a part time job
or three. Unless they've ****ed their loan up the wall, and can't be arsed
to work, in which case it comes down to the parents.

A bit like real life, really, but for the fact that the loan has to be
paid back out of their future earnings.

On Wednesday 03 July 2013 22:14 Fredxx wrote in uk.d-i-y:

No they're not!!

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/n.../How-students-
charged-9-000-tuition-fees-courses-really-cost-just-6-000-run.html

I have also read that the contact time between university and students
is alarmingly few hours and so real tuition fees per hour are
astronomical.

Here are the King's College (London) fees:

http://www.kcl.ac.uk/study/ug/funding/fees/index.aspx

http://www.kcl.ac.uk/study/ug/fundin.../overseas.aspx

9k for EU/Home students and

15-19k for oversees, unless it's clinical in which case it's 35k

Those are all per annum.

Now it may be true that the cost of the course per student is less than 9k
in some cases (say maths, arts with no lab time and 200 students / year) but
the foreigners are very much subsidising the locals.


UK Universities do not represent good value for money for students!

I am wondering when the time will come when going to the USA will become
similar or even favourable in costs. That will be the time we are truely
screwed. For now, I've heard it said that US unis (well decent ones) are
currently a lot costlier compared to here.


--
Tim Watts Personal Blog: http://squiddy.blog.dionic.net/

http://www.sensorly.com/ Crowd mapping of 2G/3G/4G mobile signal coverage

Reading this on the web? See:
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On Thursday 04 July 2013 02:19 Arfa Daily wrote in uk.d-i-y:



"Fredxx" wrote in message
...
On 03/07/2013 22:00, Adrian wrote:
On Wed, 03 Jul 2013 20:52:15 +0000, Bob Eager wrote:

Of course, the costs haven't changed - it's just that the
student pays rather than the taxpayer

The students are *supposed* to pay, but the overwhelming
expectation is that the student's parents pay. I've never seen
newspaper articles on "how to pay your university fees", but
piles and piles of "how to pay your child's university fees".

The fact remains is that {students,parents} now pay all of it
rather than about a third, and the government pays nothing rather
than two thirds.

Umm, no.

Courses are still heavily subsidised for UK students.


No they're not!!

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/n.../How-students-
charged-9-000-tuition-fees-courses-really-cost-just-6-000-run.html

I have also read that the contact time between university and students
is alarmingly few hours and so real tuition fees per hour are
astronomical.

UK Universities do not represent good value for money for students!

I would go along with that. My daughter received just a few hours per week
of 'tuition', and even that was pretty variable. She also had to pay for
all materials used as part of the course, and also for the use of some
university facilities and exhibition space within the university. Most of
her 'lecturers' were actually part time people who worked doing their own
thing, outside of the university system. We felt that the entire thing was
a cynical ripoff, and that her course could have been completed in little
more than a year, if the tuition levels were what they were 30 years ago.
The whole university thing has, IMHO, become a travesty, which is now
about a teenage right of passage rather than real-world advanced education
in the case of most of the 'new' universities. Many of the courses offered
are in nonsense subjects that are never going to be the slightest use to
the student - except to say at the end of it that they've "got a degree",
and the fact that they drag these courses out to three years, is criminal
gravy-training ...

Arfa


I think the Open University is going to make long term gains. You have the
chance to work, earning immediately whilst studying and the OU is very good
at what they do.

--
Tim Watts Personal Blog: http://squiddy.blog.dionic.net/

http://www.sensorly.com/ Crowd mapping of 2G/3G/4G mobile signal coverage

Reading this on the web? See:
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Usenet

On Thursday 04 July 2013 08:41 Adrian wrote in uk.d-i-y:

On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 08:27:30 +0100, Tim Watts wrote:

Perhaps you can help me here Bob (my dept has no undergrads so I don't
have any contact with this side of things)

1) Fees are paid by student loan with fairly easy repayment terms - I'm
pretty clear about this part;

2) How does cost of living/rent work?

The student pays it out of 1, plus whatever they earn in a part time job
or three. Unless they've ****ed their loan up the wall, and can't be arsed
to work, in which case it comes down to the parents.

A bit like real life, really, but for the fact that the loan has to be
paid back out of their future earnings.

Ok - I did not know that the student loan covered any except fees.

--
Tim Watts Personal Blog: http://squiddy.blog.dionic.net/

http://www.sensorly.com/ Crowd mapping of 2G/3G/4G mobile signal coverage

Reading this on the web? See:
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Usenet

On Thursday 04 July 2013 08:40 Adrian wrote in uk.d-i-y:

On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 08:27:30 +0100, Tim Watts wrote:

Perhaps you can help me here Bob (my dept has no undergrads so I don't
have any contact with this side of things)

1) Fees are paid by student loan with fairly easy repayment terms - I'm
pretty clear about this part;

2) How does cost of living/rent work?

The student pays it out of 1, plus whatever they earn in a part time job
or three. Unless they've ****ed their loan up the wall, and can't be arsed
to work, in which case it comes down to the parents.

A bit like real life, really, but for the fact that the loan has to be
paid back out of their future earnings.

BTW your posts are appearing 3 times :-o
--
Tim Watts Personal Blog: http://squiddy.blog.dionic.net/

http://www.sensorly.com/ Crowd mapping of 2G/3G/4G mobile signal coverage

Reading this on the web? See:
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Usenet

On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 08:27:30 +0100, Tim Watts wrote:

Perhaps you can help me here Bob (my dept has no undergrads so I don't
have any contact with this side of things)

1) Fees are paid by student loan with fairly easy repayment terms - I'm
pretty clear about this part;

2) How does cost of living/rent work? My limited understanding was that
was means tested with the possibility of the government paying some -
but for 2 working parents, it was likley the government contribution is
more or less zero?

There a maintenance loan of about £5000 if living away from home - it's
lumped in with the tuition loan. Rather less if living at home - about
£4000. A component of that is means tested and students with 'rich' (FSVO
rich) parents will lose about 35% of that.

It's lumped in with the fees loan and there are no increased repayments.

3) If (2) is there a different type of student loan similar to (1) that
can be obtained?

It's a different loan but it's all lumped into one for repayment purposes.

2/3 was the bit I thought parents ended up paying unless darling
Willoughby was of a mind to take 3 part time MacDonalds and evening pub
jobs on to pay his own way (which is one of the typical newspaper
lines).

It's not enough, certainly if living away from home - but then the grant
never was either. Many students have part time jobs but that's to be
expected.

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On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 08:41:45 +0100, Tim Watts wrote:

On Wednesday 03 July 2013 22:14 Fredxx wrote in uk.d-i-y:


No they're not!!

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/n.../How-students-
charged-9-000-tuition-fees-courses-really-cost-just-6-000-run.html

I have also read that the contact time between university and students
is alarmingly few hours and so real tuition fees per hour are
astronomical.

UK Universities do not represent good value for money for students!

When I was at York Uni in 1986, we have 90 odd UG's per year and
tutorial groups of about 6. there were regular supervisor (overall
tutor) meetings too.

It's one of the reasons I chose York, over say, Southampton who really
did not seem to have their act together at the time.

We have first year formal contact hours of about 14 per week. However,
staff are available for individual consultation (well, most are!) and we
also communicate on Facebook, by email, etc. We mostly operate open door
policies during working hours and quite a few (including me) will respond
even in the early hours.

The department (as you probably know) sees only a proportion of the fees
- the rest is withheld centrally. We have to pay staff and buy equipment,
pay rent (!) etc. out of what we get.



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In article , Tim Watts
scribeth thus
On Wednesday 03 July 2013 22:01 Adrian wrote in uk.d-i-y:

Given that the number of students at university has exploded in the last
few decades, was it really sustainable to expect government to support
them all to the same extent?

Well, this is back to my pet peeve. We should have stuck with less students
prefereably doing solid degree courses. But all means attract the foreign
students.

Now that we are in the mess of having a lot of perfectly interesting but
effectively useless (in term sof being able to do anything much productive
with them afterwards) my take is that we should be offering grants for
engineering, science and core arts. If you want to do "film in the 1950's",
pay for it yourself.

Noooo! You must have a useless course like that else you'd never be
appointed to the BBC management or the Ministry of Defence etc!...


The reason I include core arts as productive is that is what certain civil
servants, journalists and teachers may have traditionally taken,
particularly English, History, Economics or a foreign language. And by god
the newspapers would be better off with journalists holding a range of
proper degrees.

The remaining problem is: what to do with everyone else? The days of entry
level apprenticeships at the Post Office (telephones), GEC and the BBC are
gone, much for the worse. There are a *lot* of people who are smart and can
make a good career the old way without academic qualifications.

ISTR that the BBC have now realised that the older engineers who made
things work and happen are now all retiring or coming to their career
end and they aren't being replaced. So the BBC are offering to pay your
Uni fees provided you go and work for them for a while!...

--
Tony Sayer

On Thursday 04 July 2013 09:22 Bob Eager wrote in uk.d-i-y:

On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 08:27:30 +0100, Tim Watts wrote:

Perhaps you can help me here Bob (my dept has no undergrads so I don't
have any contact with this side of things)

1) Fees are paid by student loan with fairly easy repayment terms - I'm
pretty clear about this part;

2) How does cost of living/rent work? My limited understanding was that
was means tested with the possibility of the government paying some -
but for 2 working parents, it was likley the government contribution is
more or less zero?

There a maintenance loan of about £5000 if living away from home - it's
lumped in with the tuition loan. Rather less if living at home - about
£4000. A component of that is means tested and students with 'rich' (FSVO
rich) parents will lose about 35% of that.

Ah - Thank you. For the first time I think I understand.

For comparison, for interest, in 1986 at York:

Fees were 100% covered for me.

Grant was £2100/year.
Room in halls was £21/week (30 weeks/year)
Dining was typically £1 per proper meal in college. Self catering was
available and you could mix as you wished.

Guinness was about 80p/pint

So bringing that upto date using the BoE inflation calc:

1986 grant in 2012 terms = £5211
1986 room per week = £52
Dining / cooked meal = £2.50
Guinness = £2

So, back in the real world:

The grant/loan has matched inflation.
York Uni cheapest room is £90/week[1]
York Uni dining is £4.47 for breakfast plus dinner each day [2]


So it seems clear to me that whilst the grant was just about livable on in
1986 oop t'north, real world cost of living have doubled compared to
official inflation (lying toads) so modern students are unlikely to be able
to have a basic but confortable existance on the loan alone, even somewhere
cheap.

Granted - York was cheap in the 1980's and the whole economy up there has
taken a jump upwards in costs.

It's lumped in with the fees loan and there are no increased repayments.

3) If (2) is there a different type of student loan similar to (1) that
can be obtained?

It's a different loan but it's all lumped into one for repayment purposes.

2/3 was the bit I thought parents ended up paying unless darling
Willoughby was of a mind to take 3 part time MacDonalds and evening pub
jobs on to pay his own way (which is one of the typical newspaper
lines).

It's not enough, certainly if living away from home - but then the grant
never was either. Many students have part time jobs but that's to be
expected.



[1] https://www.york.ac.uk/about/departments/support-and-
admin/accommodation/prices-payments/

[2]
http://www.york.ac.uk/commercialserv...mad/index.html

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On Thursday 04 July 2013 09:25 Bob Eager wrote in uk.d-i-y:

On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 08:41:45 +0100, Tim Watts wrote:

On Wednesday 03 July 2013 22:14 Fredxx wrote in uk.d-i-y:


No they're not!!

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/n.../How-students-
charged-9-000-tuition-fees-courses-really-cost-just-6-000-run.html

I have also read that the contact time between university and students
is alarmingly few hours and so real tuition fees per hour are
astronomical.

UK Universities do not represent good value for money for students!

When I was at York Uni in 1986, we have 90 odd UG's per year and
tutorial groups of about 6. there were regular supervisor (overall
tutor) meetings too.

It's one of the reasons I chose York, over say, Southampton who really
did not seem to have their act together at the time.

We have first year formal contact hours of about 14 per week. However,
staff are available for individual consultation (well, most are!) and we
also communicate on Facebook, by email, etc. We mostly operate open door
policies during working hours and quite a few (including me) will respond
even in the early hours.



The department (as you probably know) sees only a proportion of the fees
- the rest is withheld centrally. We have to pay staff and buy equipment,
pay rent (!) etc. out of what we get.


Indeed. My dept is research heavy - we take a *lot* of funding via grants
for specific project work.

--
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http://www.sensorly.com/ Crowd mapping of 2G/3G/4G mobile signal coverage

Reading this on the web? See:
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On Thursday 04 July 2013 09:54 tony sayer wrote in uk.d-i-y:

ISTR that the BBC have now realised that the older engineers who made
things work and happen are now all retiring or coming to their career
end and they aren't being replaced. So the BBC are offering to pay your
Uni fees provided you go and work for them for a while!...

Ah - the sponsorship programme. Good to see they have woken up at last.



--
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http://www.sensorly.com/ Crowd mapping of 2G/3G/4G mobile signal coverage

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On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 03:23:30 +0100, Clive George wrote:

I would go along with that. My daughter received just a few hours
per
week of 'tuition', and even that was pretty variable. She also had
to
pay for all materials used as part of the course, and also for the
use
of some university facilities and exhibition space within the
university. Most of her 'lecturers' were actually part time people
who
worked doing their own thing, outside of the university system.

Where was this course?

And what was the course? I certinly hope that the Russell Group
universitys don't work like that.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 04/07/2013 09:54, tony sayer wrote:


ISTR that the BBC have now realised that the older engineers who made
things work and happen are now all retiring or coming to their career
end and they aren't being replaced. So the BBC are offering to pay your
Uni fees provided you go and work for them for a while!...


This used to be fairly common in the engineering industry when I went to
Uni in the mid '70s. Many engineering companies would "sponsor" (ie pay
salaries and fees for) undergraduates with the proviso that they went to
work for the company during the long summer recesses and following
graduation. About 25% of my course were on one of these schemes. I
think its long since dead and the best you can get is a bit of a bursary
these days.

--
Chris

"Clive George" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 04/07/2013 02:19, Arfa Daily wrote:

I would go along with that. My daughter received just a few hours per
week of 'tuition', and even that was pretty variable. She also had to
pay for all materials used as part of the course, and also for the use
of some university facilities and exhibition space within the
university. Most of her 'lecturers' were actually part time people who
worked doing their own thing, outside of the university system. We felt
that the entire thing was a cynical ripoff, and that her course could
have been completed in little more than a year, if the tuition levels
were what they were 30 years ago. The whole university thing has, IMHO,
become a travesty, which is now about a teenage right of passage rather
than real-world advanced education in the case of most of the 'new'
universities. Many of the courses offered are in nonsense subjects that
are never going to be the slightest use to the student - except to say
at the end of it that they've "got a degree", and the fact that they
drag these courses out to three years, is criminal gravy-training ...

Where was this course?



Kingston

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
...
Tim Watts wrote:

2/3 was the bit I thought parents ended up paying unless darling
Willoughby
was of a mind to take 3 part time MacDonalds and evening pub jobs on to
pay
his own way (which is one of the typical newspaper lines).

If its any help, my grandson whose parents make very little money and who
can just about get by with assistance from the bank of mum and dad gets
nothing.

He pays his own way by working all weekend and most evenings as a
warehouseman in a cash and carry warehouse. He also works during the week.
He's taking a computer science degree and I don't know how he finds the
time to study as well as support himself. His girlfriend is in much the
same boat. Her family aren't wealthy, living just above minimum wage.
She's
working most evenings in a fast food "restaurant" to pay her way.

--
€¢DarWin|
_/ _/


My daughter worked every spare hour in a business in Kingston, and rose to
the top even whilst still a student. After she got her degree in fine art,
she went to work for them full time, and is now a regional manager. She
hasn't picked up as much as a pencil since, so other than saying that she
has a first class degree, the time spent was of little meaning ...

Arfa

On Thursday 04 July 2013 10:52 news wrote in uk.d-i-y:

On 04/07/2013 09:54, tony sayer wrote:


ISTR that the BBC have now realised that the older engineers who made
things work and happen are now all retiring or coming to their career
end and they aren't being replaced. So the BBC are offering to pay your
Uni fees provided you go and work for them for a while!...


This used to be fairly common in the engineering industry when I went to
Uni in the mid '70s. Many engineering companies would "sponsor" (ie pay
salaries and fees for) undergraduates with the proviso that they went to
work for the company during the long summer recesses and following
graduation. About 25% of my course were on one of these schemes. I
think its long since dead and the best you can get is a bit of a bursary
these days.


That's because we've lost the mighty companies that did this as a matter of
course:

British Rail
GEC (et al)
PO/BT

IBM might still do it (not sure) and the likes of Google and Microsoft are
still very much up for taking people as part of a CompSci sandwich course -
not sure about sponsorship though.

Not sure what state BT are in, or whether Network Rail might still be a
possibility.

--
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http://www.sensorly.com/ Crowd mapping of 2G/3G/4G mobile signal coverage

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On Thursday 04 July 2013 11:40 Arfa Daily wrote in uk.d-i-y:



"Clive George" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 04/07/2013 02:19, Arfa Daily wrote:

I would go along with that. My daughter received just a few hours per
week of 'tuition', and even that was pretty variable. She also had to
pay for all materials used as part of the course, and also for the use
of some university facilities and exhibition space within the
university. Most of her 'lecturers' were actually part time people who
worked doing their own thing, outside of the university system. We felt
that the entire thing was a cynical ripoff, and that her course could
have been completed in little more than a year, if the tuition levels
were what they were 30 years ago. The whole university thing has, IMHO,
become a travesty, which is now about a teenage right of passage rather
than real-world advanced education in the case of most of the 'new'
universities. Many of the courses offered are in nonsense subjects that
are never going to be the slightest use to the student - except to say
at the end of it that they've "got a degree", and the fact that they
drag these courses out to three years, is criminal gravy-training ...

Where was this course?



Kingston

Surprises me not. They would not let me use one of their PAD connected
terminals in the 80's to remote to the VAXen at York. I had to go up to
King's at Waterloo and they were very accomodating.

call 000006000000 # VAXA
call 000006000028 # VAXB

how sad is that :-o

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Reading this on the web? See:
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