On 18/09/12 12:48, John Williamson wrote:

The market seems to be well off,green minded people who don't travel
much, with enough space to park the vehicle so that the power lead
doesn't cross any public land. That's just about all suburbs and no
inner cities anywhere except for well off people who live in blocks of
flats with their own parking. Which is a shame, because small electric
cars would be ideal for inner city dwellers.

Inner city dwellers €”I am one€” don't really need cars, there are buses
and taxis, and the necessities of life are largely within walking
distance. And these days inner city dwellers are more likely to be young
and economically and physically active rather than old and poor, so even
less excuse to drive everywhere.


--
djc

On Tue, 18 Sep 2012 13:53:27 +0100, djc wrote:

But these electric cars aren't designed for driving across europe or
any great distance. They are for the wage slaves doing the M-F 9-5 25
mile round trip commute.

But the wage slaves are just the people who can only afford one car, so
it has to do all the other occasional, but so often vital, trips too.

So they use some of the money they save from the cheap energy, reduced
tax, etc on the day to day electric car to hire a more suitable vehicle
as required.

Figures were posted recently about how much one of these cars would save
someone communing into central London with, no congestion charge, free
parking and charging etc. I forget the numbers but it was several
thousand pounds...

--
Cheers
Dave.

harry wrote:

Ordinary cars are complex, and prone to breakdowns, while the Ampera
is simple

Electric cars/hybrids are extremely complex.

They are NOT.

Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sun, 16 Sep 2012 10:21:39 +0100, Steve Firth wrote:

And I can use air con, heated seats, headlights and windscreen wipers
without worrying that I'll never get to my destination. I can also
cross Europe in just over a day - that will happen with the Leaf.

It does with the Ampera

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

But these electric cars aren't designed for driving across europe or
any great distance. They are for the wage slaves doing the M-F 9-5
25 mile round trip commute.

and the school run..

Yep, in cities and towns to clean the places up.

djc wrote:
On 18/09/12 00:38, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sun, 16 Sep 2012 10:21:39 +0100, Steve Firth wrote:

And I can use air con, heated seats, headlights and windscreen
wipers without worrying that I'll never get to my destination. I
can also cross Europe in just over a day - that will happen with
the Leaf.

Think there is word missing in the end of the last sentance.

But these electric cars aren't designed for driving across europe or
any great distance. They are for the wage slaves doing the M-F 9-5
25 mile round trip commute.

But the wage slaves are just the people who can only afford one car,
so it has to do all the other occasional, but so often vital, trips
too.

Hence the Ampera, which in a town or city charged overnight will rarely need
to use the petrol genny engine. It is simple.

Dave Liquorice wrote:

Figures were posted recently about how much one of these cars would
save someone communing into central London with, no congestion
charge, free parking and charging etc. I forget the numbers but it
was several thousand pounds...

That is why full EVs are all around London. The level of emissions should
be raised to exclude the FIAT of no congestion charges. If an IC engine can
nudge in, the bar has to be raised.

Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Tue, 18 Sep 2012 13:53:27 +0100, djc wrote:

But these electric cars aren't designed for driving across europe or
any great distance. They are for the wage slaves doing the M-F 9-5
25 mile round trip commute.

But the wage slaves are just the people who can only afford one car,
so it has to do all the other occasional, but so often vital, trips
too.

So they use some of the money they save from the cheap energy, reduced
tax, etc on the day to day electric car to hire a more suitable
vehicle as required.

Figures were posted recently about how much one of these cars would
save someone communing into central London with, no congestion
charge, free parking and charging etc. I forget the numbers but it
was several thousand pounds...

Cars these day cars just do not need an engine of a large capacity. Four
or three cylinder engines are all they need. The days of direct drive by IC
engines are nearly over - we are at the beginning of the end. Look at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_...tro-air_hybrid

Using petro/hydraulic hybrids which is very promising:
http://www.artemisip.com/appli_auto_transm.htm

Overview:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYbilBl3GGo

More detail of the BMW car's testing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJw5AvvxBqg

http://green.autoblog.com/2006/06/15...of-hydraulics/

INGOCAR from Valentin Tech shatters the way we think about cars:
http://www.torquenews.com/1080/ingoc...ink-about-cars

130 MPG INGOCAR (the hydraulic accumulator is the structure of the car):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzabH-rBPqI

Doctor Drivel wrote:
harry wrote:

Ordinary cars are complex, and prone to breakdowns, while the Ampera
is simple

Electric cars/hybrids are extremely complex.

They are NOT.

Hybrids are at least as complex as a normal car for the mechanical bits,
with the added complexity of all the electrical equipment and mechanical
arrangements to handle the division of drive between the electric and
internal combustion motors.

Electric cars are also complex, as they have equipment on them to use
regenerative braking, battery charging and motor control. The last
simple electric vehicles were the old fashioned trolleybuses with the
resistive controllers, and even modern trolleybuses and trams use much
more complex stuff than that. Our hybrid buses at work are *much* more
difficult to work on than our normal buses.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

Doctor Drivel wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sun, 16 Sep 2012 10:21:39 +0100, Steve Firth wrote:

And I can use air con, heated seats, headlights and windscreen wipers
without worrying that I'll never get to my destination. I can also
cross Europe in just over a day - that will happen with the Leaf.

It does with the Ampera

Only by using the fossil fuel engine to keep the battery charged. In
which case, why not just use a simpler internal combustion engined vehicle?

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

In article o.uk,
Dave Liquorice wrote:
Figures were posted recently about how much one of these cars would save
someone communing into central London with, no congestion charge, free
parking and charging etc. I forget the numbers but it was several
thousand pounds...

Were those figures posted by dribble?
Do you get free parking with a guaranteed spot where you need it? And with
a charging point? I somehow doubt it. And you'll still have to sit in that
traffic jam - but without the benefit of decent air con or heater.

--
*Save a tree, eat a beaver*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

They wouldn't be bothering with them if petrol and diesel weren't
taxed. ;-)

Filthy IC engines have to be eliminated from cities.

John Williamson wrote:
Doctor Drivel wrote:
harry wrote:

Ordinary cars are complex, and prone to breakdowns, while the
Ampera is simple

Electric cars/hybrids are extremely complex.

They are NOT.

Hybrids are at least as complex as a normal car for the mechanical
bits,

Nonsense. An Ampera only has a genny engine. NO transmission.

Electric cars are also complex, as they have equipment on them to use
regenerative braking, battery charging and motor control.

Simple stuff. Mainly an ECU.

Our hybrid buses at work are *much* more
difficult to work on than our normal buses.

Modern hybrid buses are crap. Look at the supercapacitor busses in
Shanghai.

John Williamson wrote:
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sun, 16 Sep 2012 10:21:39 +0100, Steve Firth wrote:

And I can use air con, heated seats, headlights and windscreen
wipers without worrying that I'll never get to my destination. I
can also cross Europe in just over a day - that will happen with
the Leaf.

It does with the Ampera

Only by using the fossil fuel engine to keep the battery charged. In
which case, why not just use a simpler internal combustion engined
vehicle?

You are very slow. As the name implies, "hybrid". Full EV in cities and
when you go long distance occasionally the car runs on the genny and still
gets 60mpg.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
John Williamson wrote:
Most of that sums me up, except the well off bit. I can afford to run
the old petrol car I've owned for over thirty years, but I can't
afford the initial cost of even a G-Whiz. Which is a shame, because
apart from when I'm working, I generally drive no more than 30 miles
a day even on my days off. When I'm working, it's 2.4 miles each
way, but I can't carry what I need to carry to and from work on a
pushbike.

Have you ever been in a G-Whiz?

I went in one. Fantastic.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Andy Champ wrote:
On 15/09/2012 17:06, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
So how much for rejuvenating a 10 year olde motah and I presume
it won't
be on its first set of batts by that age?..

The Prius set is averaging at 12 years.

Proof, please.

He may well be right - as I see from a quick Google. Prius is tuned
for battery life, which means never fully charging it nor flattening
it - which will not be the case in a full plugin.

Even so,

This man is senile.

Andy Champ wrote:
On 15/09/2012 17:06, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
So how much for rejuvenating a 10 year olde motah and I presume
it won't
be on its first set of batts by that age?..

The Prius set is averaging at 12 years.

Proof, please.

He may well be right - as I see from a quick Google. Prius is tuned
for battery life, which means never fully charging it nor flattening
it - which will not be the case in a full plugin.

8 year guarantee and 12 year average. When the batteries are "dead" for the
car. They can be used for other purposes. They still work but do not keep
the deep charge needed for a car. They will last and last doing less
strenuous work than propelling a full car.

I was reading spent Prius batteries are good for replacing a lead/acid
battery in a car.

Doctor Drivel wrote:
John Williamson wrote:
Doctor Drivel wrote:
harry wrote:

Ordinary cars are complex, and prone to breakdowns, while the
Ampera is simple

Electric cars/hybrids are extremely complex.

They are NOT.

Hybrids are at least as complex as a normal car for the mechanical
bits,

Nonsense. An Ampera only has a genny engine. NO transmission.

So it uses a generator to drive an electric motor. Brilliant. Most
makers abandoned that idea in the 1920s as it was too complex and
unreliable. The Pious, on the other hand, which is more typical of
hybrid cars, has an automatic gearbox and a load splitter. And the most
polluting batteries on the road.

Electric cars are also complex, as they have equipment on them to use
regenerative braking, battery charging and motor control.

Simple stuff. Mainly an ECU.

Say that again *after* you've worked on one and got it going after a
breakdown.

Our hybrid buses at work are *much* more
difficult to work on than our normal buses.

Modern hybrid buses are crap. Look at the supercapacitor busses in
Shanghai.

Which can just about make it from one stop to the next. At least our
hybrids can go a whole day without running out of power.

Damn, I've been provoked into replying to Drivel again. Back in the KF
you go...


--
Tciao for Now!

John.

Doctor Drivel wrote:
John Williamson wrote:
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sun, 16 Sep 2012 10:21:39 +0100, Steve Firth wrote:

And I can use air con, heated seats, headlights and windscreen
wipers without worrying that I'll never get to my destination. I
can also cross Europe in just over a day - that will happen with
the Leaf.

It does with the Ampera

Only by using the fossil fuel engine to keep the battery charged. In
which case, why not just use a simpler internal combustion engined
vehicle?

You are very slow. As the name implies, "hybrid". Full EV in cities and
when you go long distance occasionally the car runs on the genny and
still gets 60mpg.

And I can get 70mpg on a run in a number of small cars without the extra
costs of the hybridity. If I want to drive more than 60 miles or so in
an Ampera, I need to run the engine all the time once the battery goes
flat. I also need to plug the Ampera in every night, whereas at the
moment, I fuel up my car once a month.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
harry wrote:

Ordinary cars are complex, and prone to breakdowns, while the Ampera
is simple

Electric cars/hybrids are extremely complex.

They are NOT.

Given you don't know one end of a car from the other...

--
*It's a thankless job, but I've got a lot of Karma to burn off

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

They wouldn't be bothering with them if petrol and diesel weren't
taxed. ;-)

Filthy IC engines have to be eliminated from cities.

Quite right. Ban the Prius and all hybrids.

--
*Hang in there, retirement is only thirty years away! *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Andy Champ wrote:
On 15/09/2012 16:22, Doctor Drivel wrote:

"Andy Champ" wrote in message
. uk...
On 11/09/2012 23:53, Doctor Drivel wrote:
You could have a 10 year old car and slap in a new battery set
and it is transformed.

I have a ten year old car. I haven't had to buy a new engine,
gearbox, or anything else big.

You must pay attention. The car can be "transformed". Replacing your
auto box will cost about the same as battery set but the car is not
transformed, just still the same as it was.

Oh, I thought you meant it was transformed from a dying heap back to
the equivalent of a new model. What does the new battery do that the
original didn't?

Pay attention at the back!. Batteries are improving all the time. In 12
years time a new battery set will get the car a lot further than the current
crop. Economy will be vastly improved.

Incidentally while one day I'm sure I'll meet an auto box that can do
a better job than me I haven't yet. The Prius may well have such a
transmission - but it's damned expensive.

The Prius is an old design, it is 15 years old now. Mine is still superb to
drive. The Vaux' Ampera is vastly superior and the new cars predicated to
be out using the small, light, Lotus 1200cc 3 cyl' genny engine (range
extender) running at its efficient constant speed "sweet spot" will be even
better.

Audi are looking into using a very small Wankel engine as a range extender
genny slapped under the boot. For the rare times it will be used it is fine.
Wankels are efficient running at their constant high speed "sweet spot", so
come into their own as a genny. The very small size and no vibration is also
a great major advantage.

Andy Champ wrote:
On 15/09/2012 16:18, Doctor Drivel wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Battery technology is improving greatly. There is also the combined
battery/supercapacitor.

This could have been posted 30 years ago. And was as true then as
now. Or not.

This one forgets the brick cell phones we had.

That one forgets the enormous changes in electronics over that time.
Look up Moore's Law (we get a lot more processing power for the same
energy)

Yep. The advances in motor control technology has take off as well.
Motor-in-hub will be the norm - brakes and power all in unit. Using
supercapacitors to reclaim 98% of the kinetic energy and give it right back
on acceleration.

Using

1. The New Toshiba batteries
2. Wheel-in-hub motors
3. Electronic motor control
4. Light, insulated car bodies

The range of EVs would not be much of a problem at all. The technology is
there, it needs wrapping into one package.

John Williamson wrote:

It allegedly takes a Nissan Leaf to 80% charge in 30 minutes.

The New Toshiba batteries can do 80% charge in 3 mins.

harry wrote:
On Sep 15, 8:36 pm, Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:
On Sat, 15 Sep 2012 16:19:52 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"

wrote:
So how much for rejuvenating a 10 year olde motah and I presume it
won't be on its first set of batts by that age?..

The Prius set is averaging at 12 years.

Hmmm... really? I wonder where all the pulled Priapism batteries on
ebay come from then.

The car has been in production for 16 years or so.

John Williamson wrote:

Nonsense. An Ampera only has a genny engine. NO transmission.

So it uses a generator to drive an electric motor. Brilliant. Most
makers abandoned that idea in the 1920s as it was too complex and
unreliable.

The simplest arrangement besides a full EV is the series hybrid using a
genny engine and electric drive motor. It was sometimes known as the
"electric transmission".

You obviously did not notice that technology has moved on from the 1920s.
Duh.

Modern hybrid buses are crap. Look at the supercapacitor busses in
Shanghai.

Which can just about make it from one stop to the next.

And more. The bus is designed to go from stop to stop. Don't you know how
bus networks work and what bus stops are for? Duh.

John Williamson wrote:

It does with the Ampera

Only by using the fossil fuel engine to keep the battery charged. In
which case, why not just use a simpler internal combustion engined
vehicle?

You are very slow. As the name implies, "hybrid". Full EV in cities
and when you go long distance occasionally the car runs on the genny
and still gets 60mpg.

And I can get 70mpg on a run in a number of small cars

The Ampera is NOT small. Again dumbo, it runs on zero emissions in the city
where we do not need harmful, toxic emissions. For the long range in the
country the IC genny cuts in running at a more efficient constant speed.

The new series hybrid cars will be super simple.

John Williamson wrote:

has an automatic gearbox

The Prius does not have a gearbox.

Simple stuff. Mainly an ECU.

Say that again *after* you've worked on one and got it going after a
breakdown.

All cars have ECUs. Boy you are dumb.

Tim Streater wrote:

BFD. 60mpg is what I got anyway Canterbury to Durham with a couple of
overnight stops earlier this year, in a 2008 dizzle C4.

Totally irrelevant comment

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

They wouldn't be bothering with them if petrol and diesel weren't
taxed. ;-)

Filthy IC engines have to be eliminated from cities.

Quite right. Ban the Prius and all hybrids.

And have just EVs. I am with you. Boy it took you years to figure that out.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
harry wrote:

Ordinary cars are complex, and prone to breakdowns, while the
Ampera is simple

Electric cars/hybrids are extremely complex.

They are NOT.

Given you don't know one end of a car from the other...

This one is senile.

tony sayer wrote:
In article , Doctor Drivel invalid@not-
for-mail.invalid scribeth thus

"Andy Champ" wrote in message
. uk...
On 11/09/2012 23:53, Doctor Drivel wrote:
You could have a 10 year old car and slap in a new battery set
and it is transformed.

I have a ten year old car. I haven't had to buy a new engine,
gearbox, or anything else big.

You must pay attention. The car can "transformed". Replacing your
auto box will cost about the same as battery set but the car is not
transformed, just still the same as it was.


My 17 Y/O petrol engined Audi A6 is on is original engine
transmission and a lot else thanks...

That is nice to know.

harry wrote:
On Sep 15, 4:27 pm, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:
"Andy Champ" wrote in message

. uk...

On 11/09/2012 23:53, Doctor Drivel wrote:
You could have a 10 year old car and slap in a new battery set and
it is transformed.

I have a ten year old car. I haven't had to buy a new engine,
gearbox, or anything else big.

You must pay attention. The car can "transformed". Replacing your
auto box will cost about the same as battery set but the car is not
transformed, just still the same as it was.

W"ell a new battery is £4000-£5000

In 12 years time it will not be as battery production gets up to speed.
There is a shortage of car battery factories. Hence why some hybrids are
not being advertised

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
So how much for rejuvenating a 10 year olde motah and I presume it
won't
be on its first set of batts by that age?..

The Prius set is averaging at 12 years.

Proof, please.

In Drivelspik, that means that 90% of them die in the first year, and
of the 10% that are left, 90% of those die in the second and so on.

This man is senile.

In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
John Williamson wrote:

It allegedly takes a Nissan Leaf to 80% charge in 30 minutes.

The New Toshiba batteries can do 80% charge in 3 mins.

from what size of supply? Certainly not a domestic 13A one.

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

On Tue, 18 Sep 2012 15:40:22 +0100, Doctor Drivel wrote:

But these electric cars aren't designed for driving across europe or
any great distance. They are for the wage slaves doing the M-F 9-5
25 mile round trip commute.

But the wage slaves are just the people who can only afford one car,
so it has to do all the other occasional, but so often vital, trips
too.

Hence the Ampera, which in a town or city charged overnight will rarely
need to use the petrol genny engine. It is simple.

But still only has an *up to* 310 mile range on genny. Personally having
to find fuel every 200 odd miles isn't very convient. I'm used to nearly
a 600 mile range.

--
Cheers
Dave.

"Doctor Drivel" wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sun, 16 Sep 2012 10:21:39 +0100, Steve Firth wrote:
And I can use air con, heated seats, headlights and windscreen wipers
without worrying that I'll never get to my destination. I can also
cross Europe in just over a day - that will happen with the Leaf.

It does with the Ampera

Well done knobhead. So I can pay 37K for a car the size of an Astra built
like **** and then I can travel the same distance as the same size of car
using the same fuel. But of course the driver with a conventional diesel is
getting twice the mpg for half the capital expenditure.

You really are ****-for-brains thick.


--
€¢DarWin|
_/ _/

charles wrote:
In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
John Williamson wrote:

It allegedly takes a Nissan Leaf to 80% charge in 30 minutes.

The New Toshiba batteries can do 80% charge in 3 mins.

from what size of supply? Certainly not a domestic 13A one.

Again....The New Toshiba batteries can do 80% charge in 3 mins. Have you
got that yet?

Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Tue, 18 Sep 2012 15:40:22 +0100, Doctor Drivel wrote:

But these electric cars aren't designed for driving across europe
or any great distance. They are for the wage slaves doing the M-F
9-5 25 mile round trip commute.

But the wage slaves are just the people who can only afford one car,
so it has to do all the other occasional, but so often vital, trips
too.

Hence the Ampera, which in a town or city charged overnight will
rarely need to use the petrol genny engine. It is simple.

But still only has an *up to* 310 mile range on genny.

The UK is not the Sahara Desert. It is littered with fuel stations.

Personally
having to find fuel every 200 odd miles isn't very convient.

You are dangerous. 200 miles is far too long without a break. Tanks should
be smaller.

Steve Firth wrote:
"Doctor Drivel" wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sun, 16 Sep 2012 10:21:39 +0100, Steve Firth wrote:
And I can use air con, heated seats, headlights and windscreen
wipers
without worrying that I'll never get to my destination. I can also
cross Europe in just over a day - that will happen with the Leaf.

It does with the Ampera

Well done knobhead. So I can pay 37K for a car the size of an Astra

Knob, not £37K and bigger than an Astra.

snip senility