On 29/12/2010 18:58, Jilly wrote:
I've had a generator stolen by someone with a large felling axe who
bust the padlock.

I can get a bigger padlock, but then they would probably go for the
chain/steel cable instead.

A cable (eg Master Lock 15mm braided steel cable) would be much easier
to use than a chain - but are they any good, or will a serious axe
(against a concrete floor) or hacksaw attack just chop through them?
Has anyone any experience?

Thanks
Jilly
Doesn't a generator produce 240v, 3 wire cable to the house, change to 4
wire, switch in the house to feed 240v down the fourth wire back to
generator connected to chassis, when the scroat gets electrocuted you
will have ample time to isolate the fourth wire and plead an earth fault
at the generator (that was running at the time) before you report it..

Strangely I used to be a pacifist until I got older and wiser.

--
Corporal Jones
"Don't panic don't panic"
Life will go on albeit somewhat reduced

Huge :
On 2010-12-30, Steve Firth wrote:
Huge wrote:

Mmm. I think you might find that the law regards snares, man-traps and
landmines a snidge inadvisable for protecting property against theft.

I know. A position I disapprove of.

However, an inspection pit with a flimsy cover cannot be regarded as a
"man trap" can it?

I have read that one has a duty of care towards burglars. I hope that this
is not true, but fear that is.

It's reasonable to expect care towards members of the emergency services
who, for a variety of reasons, might be on your premises.

--
Mike Barnes

In article , lid
says...
However, an inspection pit with a flimsy cover cannot be regarded as a
"man trap" can it?

I have read that one has a duty of care towards burglars. I hope that this
is not true, but fear that is.

You have a duty of care towards anyone on your premises. And for good
reason - were it otherwise it would be tantamount to saying that we have
corporal punishment (or even capital punishment) for burglary.

You might /want/ to do the blighters in, but it ain't allowed. For one
thing, you'd have to ber certain that anyone doing what you assume is
wrong is actually doing wrong.

We had a kid jump over the back fence in our old house in Rayner's Lane.
He chose the wrong fence - landed in the 6' strip of blackberries we
kept to deter people from jumping over the fence. As it happens he was
fleeing from a bunch other kids who were intent on kicking the **** out
of him - only they saw the brambles and he didn't.

While I was picking thorns out of him they came round the front and were
met by the police coming the other way.

--
Skipweasel - never knowingly understood.

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Jilly
saying something like:

A cable (eg Master Lock 15mm braided steel cable) would be much easier
to use than a chain - but are they any good, or will a serious axe
(against a concrete floor) or hacksaw attack just chop through them?
Has anyone any experience?

Cordless angle-grinder, easy-peasy.

In message
,
Adam Aglionby writes
On Dec 29, 6:58*pm, Jilly wrote:
I've had a generator stolen by someone with a large felling axe who
bust the padlock.

I can get a bigger padlock, but then they would probably go for the
chain/steel cable instead.

A cable (eg Master Lock 15mm braided steel cable) would be much easier
to use than a chain - but are they any good, or will a serious axe
(against a concrete floor) or hacksaw attack just chop through them?
Has anyone any experience?

Thanks
Jilly

braided cables last less time than these chains aginst bolt cutters;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cpf35C7wu6Q

I have an Almax chain on my bike - prolly a good way to blunt an axe
blade

A strong chain just means that they go for the next weakest link

Get a PIR and a dozen sound bombs

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products...source=froogle

- it just makes life very unpleasant to be in the vicinity when they go
off, they get "inside" your head


--
geoff

On Dec 30, 3:39*pm, nicknoxx
wrote:

My bicycle is worth twice as much as my motorbike.

My good bike was about half what my Rangerover cost, which is still
more than I've paid for any other car.

Fortunately both times that someone has tried to nick it (whilst
riding, although coming home through town rather than off-road) the U
lock stopped them.

On Dec 30, 3:16*pm, Jim K wrote:

anyone tested this? or is it just "theory"?

As it was originally developed for locking up my bikeshed, then yes.
Grinding disks have become much cheaper in the years since, but
they're not yet making them out of unobtainium and kryptonite.

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...
On Dec 30, 3:16 pm, Jim K wrote:

anyone tested this? or is it just "theory"?

As it was originally developed for locking up my bikeshed, then yes.
Grinding disks have become much cheaper in the years since, but
they're not yet making them out of unobtainium and kryptonite.


These cheapish blades cut steel, alloy and concrete
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvpLkneuDbM must be unobtainium (or just
shaped teeth).

In message
, Andy
Dingley writes
On Dec 30, 3:16*pm, Jim K wrote:

anyone tested this? or is it just "theory"?

As it was originally developed for locking up my bikeshed, then yes.
Grinding disks have become much cheaper in the years since, but
they're not yet making them out of unobtainium and kryptonite.

When some footpath users sawed through a post and rail fence to create a
shortcut, I replaced the rails with short lengths of 3" steel tube
inside which is some *free to roll* 2" scaffold pipe.

regards


--
Tim Lamb

On Dec 31, 8:02*am, "dennis@home"
wrote:

These cheapish blades cut steel, alloy and concretehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvpLkneuDbMmust be unobtainium (or just
shaped teeth).

Toothed blades, not abrasive.

Now let's see those go through either concrete (with a hard aggregate)
or a decent alloy steel. Sawing some conduit and light scrap isn't
quite the same thing.

On Dec 31, 9:38*am, Tim Lamb wrote:

When some footpath users sawed through a post and rail fence to create a
shortcut, I replaced the rails with short lengths of 3" steel tube
inside which is some *free to roll* 2" scaffold pipe.

Free rolling pins defeat saws, but _fast_ grinders can usually use its
inertia to get a cut going on them.

On Dec 31, 3:01 am, Andy Dingley wrote:
On Dec 30, 3:16 pm, Jim K wrote:

anyone tested this? or is it just "theory"?

As it was originally developed for locking up my bikeshed, then yes.

snip bluster

"developed" - but has it been *tested* ? if so what happened?

Jim K

"Jim K" wrote in message
...
On Dec 31, 3:01 am, Andy Dingley wrote:
On Dec 30, 3:16 pm, Jim K wrote:

anyone tested this? or is it just "theory"?

As it was originally developed for locking up my bikeshed, then yes.

snip bluster

"developed" - but has it been *tested* ? if so what happened?

It might last a couple of minutes.
Its like all security.. if someone wants that item its a problem, if they
just want some items they will probably go elsewhere if its going to delay
them long enough for them to think they might be caught.
So having good chains, locks, etc. inside a building in a remote spot is not
going to stop anyone that wants the item.
It would make opportunist thieves look elsewhere (maybe).

In message
,
Andy Dingley writes
On Dec 31, 9:38*am, Tim Lamb wrote:

When some footpath users sawed through a post and rail fence to create a
shortcut, I replaced the rails with short lengths of 3" steel tube
inside which is some *free to roll* 2" scaffold pipe.

Free rolling pins defeat saws, but _fast_ grinders can usually use its
inertia to get a cut going on them.

These are slightly idle walkers, not your average tooled up scroat:-)

It amused me at the time.

regards

--
Tim Lamb

Mike Barnes wrote:


http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/TSGC.html

That looks good - has anyone used one?

Yes, I use two at work.

It's not clear to me from the documentation whether it's possible to
have it operating in the mode I'd want:

* light off in daylight and under PIR control in darkness

it does

* light override 'on' by separate live mains input (many PIR
floodlights have a connection for this even if it's not a 'feature')

Not that I can see

* camera under PIR control 24 hours

It is

* audio always off

Settable

And what's the picture quality like?


Moderate

It can be set to record 20 sec video or a series of jpegs. There does seem
quite some variation in sensitivity between the two units, also there is ~1
second delay between sensing and recording, which is why a little while
back I asked about means to externally trigger the pir, without delving
into the electronics.

AJH

On Dec 31, 10:46 am, Jim K wrote:

"developed" - but has it been *tested* ? if so what happened?

It took me a long time to cut the end off the pipe, using the spare
foot of pipe that I'd already planned in as a test piece. Now if you
don't believe me, you're welcome to join Dennis and the virtues of the
Masterlock.

On Jan 1, 12:29 am, Andy Dingley wrote:
On Dec 31, 10:46 am, Jim K wrote:

"developed" - but has it been *tested* ? if so what happened?

It took me a long time to cut the end off the pipe, using the spare
foot of pipe that I'd already planned in as a test piece.

snip more bluster

mmm? define "long time" & what did you cut it with?
if used AG - what sort of disc? scaffy tube's easy IME.....

Jim K

In message
,
Andy Dingley writes
On Dec 31, 10:46 am, Jim K wrote:

"developed" - but has it been *tested* ? if so what happened?

It took me a long time to cut the end off the pipe, using the spare
foot of pipe that I'd already planned in as a test piece. Now if you
don't believe me, you're welcome to join Dennis and the virtues of the
Masterlock.

I once purchased a length of 4" steel pipe for unspecified agricultural
purposes. There was some muttering from the suppliers. When I tried to
cut it to length I discovered that the interior was finished in 1/4" of
ceramic material.

The angle grinder did do the job but more by cutting round the periphery
than attempting to cut through.

The other material I struggled with is the stainless used for beer kegs.
One floated down the river (as things do) and I thought it might adapt
to plant containers if halved. Gas axe failed as the stuff does not
oxidise. The angle grinder got it up to cherry red and made a little
progress but the job was abandoned.

regards

--
Tim Lamb

In article ,
says...
The other material I struggled with is the stainless used for beer kegs.


I've been cutting up Calor gas cylinders, lately. I know they're not
stainless, but cutting them with some blades is very very different to
cutting them with others.

Using an ordinary grinding blade just makes a hot-spot, and as you say,
it just doesn't go anywhere.

Using those new ultra-thin cutting blades and it sails through.

Things like these...
http://www.screwfix.com/prods/71334
which are only 0.8mm thick. You'd think they'd be really fragile and
hair-raising to use, but I've yet to have one break in use - only when
dropping something on the grinder have I bust one. If I had a handy bit
of stainless lying about I'd go try it...

--
Skipweasel - never knowingly understood.

On Dec 30 2010, 2:38*pm, Andy Dingley wrote:
On Dec 30, 1:12*pm, (Steve Firth) wrote:

However, an inspection pit with a flimsy cover cannot be regarded as a
"man trap" can it?

Probably not, but it's still regarded as an unguarded hazard and the
landowner or tenant will be regarded as legally liable for injurires
due to it. This is still the case even if you have to trespass to get
to it (there is case law on this) and thus such a pit on the perimeter
is a problem. Fortunately warning signs are seen as a defence against
such claims, in the peanut-sized minds of the Dennises who control
such things.

Warning signs are *not* a defence against a claim of negligence - what
if the trespasser couldn't read them ? (which is what the high court
ruled, years ago).


I have such a pit on the corner of my land (sans stakes as yet, but
still an adequate drop for an oubliette). As I've already had council
dealings in relation to it (they're adjacent to its edge), I do have
to make sure it's suitably signed.

In message , Skipweasel
writes
In article ,
says...
The other material I struggled with is the stainless used for beer kegs.


I've been cutting up Calor gas cylinders, lately. I know they're not
stainless, but cutting them with some blades is very very different to
cutting them with others.

Using an ordinary grinding blade just makes a hot-spot, and as you say,
it just doesn't go anywhere.

Using those new ultra-thin cutting blades and it sails through.

Things like these...
http://www.screwfix.com/prods/71334
which are only 0.8mm thick. You'd think they'd be really fragile and
hair-raising to use, but I've yet to have one break in use - only when
dropping something on the grinder have I bust one. If I had a handy bit
of stainless lying about I'd go try it...

Cheap enough! Do they come in 5" dia?

regards


--
Tim Lamb

In article ,
says...
Things like these...
http://www.screwfix.com/prods/71334
which are only 0.8mm thick. You'd think they'd be really fragile and
hair-raising to use, but I've yet to have one break in use - only when
dropping something on the grinder have I bust one. If I had a handy bit
of stainless lying about I'd go try it...

Cheap enough! Do they come in 5" dia?

Google finds a few, but they don't seem as thin - the difference between
using 1.0mm and 0.8mm was considerable.

115mm will fit a 125mm grinder anyway and are more readily obtainable,
IIRC.

--
Skipweasel - never knowingly understood.

On Jan 1, 6:07 pm, Skipweasel wrote:
In article ,
says...

Things like these...
http://www.screwfix.com/prods/71334
which are only 0.8mm thick. You'd think they'd be really fragile and
hair-raising to use, but I've yet to have one break in use - only when
dropping something on the grinder have I bust one. If I had a handy bit
of stainless lying about I'd go try it...

Cheap enough! Do they come in 5" dia?

Google finds a few, but they don't seem as thin - the difference between
using 1.0mm and 0.8mm was considerable.

20% maybe ;)

I've used the Makita 1mm ones and like em - I'll try these next time -
cheers

115mm will fit a 125mm grinder anyway and are more readily obtainable,
IIRC.

maybe not "possible" to make them 5" with same reliability.

Jim K

In article 60fa87d8-100d-429a-85e1-5c94eaaf4464
@l8g2000yqh.googlegroups.com, says...
Google finds a few, but they don't seem as thin - the difference between
using 1.0mm and 0.8mm was considerable.

20% maybe ;)

Seemed a lot more - I doubt the difference is linear.

--
Skipweasel - never knowingly understood.

On Jan 1, 7:01 pm, Skipweasel wrote:
In article 60fa87d8-100d-429a-85e1-5c94eaaf4464
@l8g2000yqh.googlegroups.com, says...

Google finds a few, but they don't seem as thin - the difference between
using 1.0mm and 0.8mm was considerable.

20% maybe ;)

Seemed a lot more - I doubt the difference is linear.

seems straight forward enough - same power angle grinder, same disc
size, 2 X disc sides, reduced disc thickness of 20%, ergo 20% less
material being removed, erm.... what have I missed?

Jim K

In article 50f6b39c-22ab-4ef7-a4d4-df7c28d585b2
@j3g2000vbi.googlegroups.com, says...
Seemed a lot more - I doubt the difference is linear.

seems straight forward enough - same power angle grinder, same disc
size, 2 X disc sides, reduced disc thickness of 20%, ergo 20% less
material being removed, erm.... what have I missed?

Congestion of dross in the slot, heat-flow from the work zone, air-
cooling of the blade, vibration effects - I could go on.

--
Skipweasel - never knowingly understood.

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Tim Lamb
saying something like:

The other material I struggled with is the stainless used for beer kegs.
One floated down the river (as things do) and I thought it might adapt
to plant containers if halved. Gas axe failed as the stuff does not
oxidise. The angle grinder got it up to cherry red and made a little
progress but the job was abandoned.

Proper steel cutting disc works fine, but a bit slower than mild steel.

On Jan 1, 12:08*pm, Tim Lamb wrote:

The other material I struggled with is the stainless used for beer kegs.

Make sure you depressurize them first! (Infamous case in Liverpool
years ago - a gang was stealing aluminium kegs and melting them. They
were only located when one went into the melter and burst, putting
molten aluminium through the roof).

Stainless (I forget the alloy) is well-known for making anti-drill
plates. They worked well too, until angle grinders came on the scene.

Hence the other comment about using gas turbine blades and the nickel
alloys.

On Jan 1, 1:32*pm, Skipweasel wrote:

Using those new ultra-thin cutting blades and it sails through.

Yes, I love those. Disk wear is a bit severe, but they cut well,
quickly and with less side force. I stripped my garage rooof (a
million rusted J bolts) with them as I didn't enjoy using a heavier
disk whilst swinging one-handed like a baboon.

On Jan 1, 9:05*am, Jim K wrote:

snip more bluster

"Bluster" would be louder, and would imply that I gave a damn what you
thought.

On Jan 1, 8:44 pm, Andy Dingley wrote:
On Jan 1, 9:05 am, Jim K wrote:

snip more bluster

"Bluster" would be louder, and would imply that I gave a damn what you
thought.

??
you obviously do ;)

Jim K

On Jan 1, 7:39 pm, Skipweasel wrote:
In article 50f6b39c-22ab-4ef7-a4d4-df7c28d585b2
@j3g2000vbi.googlegroups.com, says...

Seemed a lot more - I doubt the difference is linear.

seems straight forward enough - same power angle grinder, same disc
size, 2 X disc sides, reduced disc thickness of 20%, ergo 20% less
material being removed, erm.... what have I missed?

Congestion of dross in the slot,

20% less would you say?

heat-flow from the work zone,

makes it quicker?

air-
cooling of the blade,

any different??

vibration effects - I could go on.

???
nah don't embarrass yourself - I'll test them (properly) next time I'm
cutting and we'll all see ;)

Jim K

On Dec 30 2010, 6:43*pm, Skipweasel wrote:

We had a kid jump over the back fence in our old house in Rayner's Lane.
He chose the wrong fence - landed in the 6' strip of blackberries we
kept to deter people from jumping over the fence.

Such deterrents are usually more effective than most things. Sea
buckthorn performs most impressively :-)

John

In message
, Jim
K writes
On Jan 1, 7:01 pm, Skipweasel wrote:
In article 60fa87d8-100d-429a-85e1-5c94eaaf4464
@l8g2000yqh.googlegroups.com, says...

Google finds a few, but they don't seem as thin - the difference between
using 1.0mm and 0.8mm was considerable.

20% maybe ;)

Seemed a lot more - I doubt the difference is linear.

seems straight forward enough - same power angle grinder, same disc
size, 2 X disc sides, reduced disc thickness of 20%, ergo 20% less
material being removed, erm.... what have I missed?

Don't know but it is probably the-)

When I had a proper job, I spent 11 years in the manufacturing side of
the bearing industry. Grinding wheel technology appeared, to me, to be
one of the black arts but the abrasives engineers seemed to understand
the variables.

Grit size, type, peripheral speed, thrust are obvious but less so was
the inclusion of sulphur as a lubricant!

Personal experience of cutting discs is that peripheral speed has the
greatest impact. I expect my 5" AG will not perform well with the
smaller disc.

regards


--
Tim Lamb

On Jan 2, 9:05 am, Tim Lamb wrote:
In message
, Jim
K writes

On Jan 1, 7:01 pm, Skipweasel wrote:
In article 60fa87d8-100d-429a-85e1-5c94eaaf4464
@l8g2000yqh.googlegroups.com, says...

Google finds a few, but they don't seem as thin - the difference between
using 1.0mm and 0.8mm was considerable.

20% maybe ;)

Seemed a lot more - I doubt the difference is linear.

seems straight forward enough - same power angle grinder, same disc
size, 2 X disc sides, reduced disc thickness of 20%, ergo 20% less
material being removed, erm.... what have I missed?

Don't know but it is probably the-)

When I had a proper job, I spent 11 years in the manufacturing side of
the bearing industry. Grinding wheel technology appeared, to me, to be
one of the black arts but the abrasives engineers seemed to understand
the variables.

Grit size, type, peripheral speed, thrust are obvious but less so was
the inclusion of sulphur as a lubricant!

Personal experience of cutting discs is that peripheral speed has the
greatest impact. I expect my 5" AG will not perform well with the
smaller disc.

seems like an opportunity..... :))

Jim K

On Sat, 1 Jan 2011 07:29:21 -0800 (PST), Jethro wrote:

Warning signs are *not* a defence against a claim of negligence - what
if the trespasser couldn't read them ? (which is what the high court
ruled, years ago).

Pictogram?

Surely one only has to take "reasonable" steps to warn trespassers?

--
Cheers
Dave.

andrew :
Mike Barnes wrote:


http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/TSGC.html

That looks good - has anyone used one?

Yes, I use two at work.

It's not clear to me from the documentation whether it's possible to
have it operating in the mode I'd want:

* light off in daylight and under PIR control in darkness

it does

* light override 'on' by separate live mains input (many PIR
floodlights have a connection for this even if it's not a 'feature')

Not that I can see

* camera under PIR control 24 hours

It is

* audio always off

Settable

And what's the picture quality like?


Moderate

It can be set to record 20 sec video or a series of jpegs. There does seem
quite some variation in sensitivity between the two units, also there is ~1
second delay between sensing and recording, which is why a little while
back I asked about means to externally trigger the pir, without delving
into the electronics.

Thanks - all useful stuff.

With regard to the override do you know if the lamp is switched by a
relay or electronically? A relay normally makes a click as it switches.
I'd feel happier hacking into a relay-driven circuit than an
electronically driven one.

--
Mike Barnes

Mike Barnes wrote:

With regard to the override do you know if the lamp is switched by a
relay or electronically? A relay normally makes a click as it switches.

I don't think the logic that drives the sensor is very rigorous. It is
possible to trigger the camera and not the light. This shows because a
green led indicates when it is recording, this is silent. There is an
audible click when the light comes on and I sense this is after the green
led is lit on the occasions when both trigger

AJH