harry gurgled happily, sounding much like they were
saying:

Also uinless you are prepared to fit chunky tires, they are only
slightly better on ice & snow.

Don't get winter tyres confused with chunky tyres.

A normal 2wd car on winter tyres is very much more capable than a 4x4 on
summer tyres. The only times that 4wd makes a difference on snow and ice
is when the snow is deep enough that ground clearance becomes an issue,
and when initially trying to move off. For going round corners and
braking, it's the tyres that are important, not the number of driven
wheels.

A set of winter tyres on a set of second-hand steel spare rims is far,
far cheaper than changing an otherwise suitable vehicle - and doesn't
even need to increase the overall running cost, since you're not wearing
out your normal summer tyres.

On Nov 28, 11:59*am, Huge wrote:
On 2010-11-28, Jeff Gaines wrote:

Having an automatic box removes many of the benefits of 4 WD,

Care to elaborate?

--
Today is Boomtime, the 40th day of The Aftermath in the YOLD 3176
* * * * * * * * * * * "Always mount a scratch monkey."

This is true. For off road use and heavy towing. You need full
control of the gears for descents and the like. But as a Chelsea
tractor very little difference.

On 28/11/2010 09:34, sweetheart wrote:
Please do not get sniffy. I drive an automatic car. I do not have a
manual licence ( OH does b ut I cant be reliant on him!) . I am not a
confident driver although I am SAFE, that was why I got an automatic in
the first place. I travel 100 miles a day to work and back without
incident, so there.

Now, I want to get a 4x4 car. I don't mind if it is second hand ( I will
go to a dealer) or new.
I have a automatic Clio currently and my PH has a little used ( about
500 miles in three years!) Scudo van. I was thinking to change the Scudo
for a 4x4 - possibly keeping my 2 year old Clio ( although I might have
to change his van for an older 4x4 and even a manual depending on what I
can get).

Thats the scenario. Now, what sort of 4x4 is good - OK? I don't need a
big one or that fancy, just reliable. I had been looking at a Suzuki
Jimny. The problem is I have been to several dealers fora NEW ( brand
new) car and found them very sniffy when I mentioned wanting an
automatic. I have looked on the web sites of many manufacturers but they
don't state which vehicles they will do as an automatic option.

I have found this before , so its not new to me but is a problem and I
am tired and don't have time to sort through it and take the flack. My
old Renault dealership when were helpful has been taken over by a big
firm who are sniffy about anyone who mentions automatics! I could do
with some advice. I don't need to be patronized please, I have had that
from men in the motor trade. ( No , this is not my inheritance money but
I do need a 4x4 to keep travelling 400 miles a month this winter to sort
out the house I have inherited. OH van is 2004 and could do with
changing too so a 4x4 could be a better option).

Thanks for any help in selecting a suitable vehicle. Smallish, economic
and reliable are the criteria - not big and blousy and "boys toy". I
don't care about eco friendly. I need a car to get from A - B and is
useable in all weathers.

The Land Rover vehicles come in auto.

In fact, the Discoverys are almost all auto, it's quite rare to come
across a manual one.

You won't get any grief looking for automatics.

If the discovery is be a bit big for you, look at the smaller Freelander.

--
Ron

Ron Lowe gurgled happily, sounding much like they were
saying:

If the discovery is be a bit big for you, look at the smaller
Freelander.

You can even buy 2wd Freelanders now. Maurice Wilks must be spinning in
his grave.

On 28/11/2010 13:13, sweetheart wrote:

"Roger Chapman" wrote in message
...
On 28/11/2010 12:44, sweetheart wrote:

I dont necessarily want it for off road or bad weather . I would prefer
to avoid both but the fact remains that most 4x4's got out of the
village last year when I couldnt. I simply want broader options than I
have now.

Good round clearance, snow tyres and manual transmission.

Good ground clearance would be useful ( especially if the river runs to
flood as it did last week. But manual not necessarily. As I said, I
cannot afford to be reliant on OH who doesn't even want to get out of
bed anymore.

I suppose a lot of my fears ( and even the chip on my shoulder) is a
result of too many people wanting to extol the virtues of their manual
cars even when those cars do not prove themselves . The numbers who got
stranded in the snow last year and the number who couldn't hack the
floods recently for example.

My automatic has managed both but I still end up fearful because of all
the comments of others. Why does my car go when theirs don't seems to be
a question in my mind? Equally, why do 4x4 autos get out of the village
when I got stuck at the bottom of the hill on sheet ice?

Most modern 4x4 have fat tyres, which are absolutely useless in
snowy/icy conditions, older landrovers had skinny tyres. Same with cars,
BMW etc have fat tyres, small supermini tend to have thin. You only need
to look at the news, BMW etc struggling to make progress, passed by a
fiat panda or such like.

Skinny tyres allow the car to make better progress as there is more
weight per square inch on the road. Combined with knobbly tyres on a 4x4
or snow chains on a car, means you can make the most of what grip is
available, obviously a 4wd sends less power to each wheel so it is
easier to get traction and move off. That might explain why you could
not get up the hill, as you could not get enough traction. Snow chains
might have helped, as would winter tyres.

Some time ago, top gear did a test of 4x4s to see how far they would go
across a grass field with a bit of a slope, they all got stuck, the
Range Rover got the furthest, but the farmers old series 3 land rover
with the right tyres drove past the lot of them.

How about a fiat panda 4x4?

sweetheart hotmail.com wrote:

I dont necessarily want it for off road or bad weather . I would prefer to
avoid both but the fact remains that most 4x4's got out of the village last
year when I couldnt.

What tyres do you have on your car? Do you own a set of snow chains? I
woudl guess that the 4x4s you refer to probably had AT tyres which are
an "all season" type, so not as good as proper winter tyres but better
than the ones fitted to most saloons as standard.

Swedes, the Swiss and others manage all year round in far worse
conditions than the UK without needing 4x4 vehicles. In fact front-wheel
drive vehicles are preferred by many who drive in these conditions and
they simply use the appropriate tyres for the job.

FWIW, I took a Fiat Ducato based motorhome (front wheel drive) over the
Dolomites in heavy snow a couple of years ago, summer tyres, no snow
chains, about 9-15 inches of snow on the road. I made it from Italy to
Basel where we stopped for the night. Progress was slow, but steady. I
saw many 4x4s crashed out at the side of the road, and was in the
company of several drivers in SAABS and Peugeots, all moving. The only
problem came at an uphill section where crashed vehicles littered all
three lanes. You can't do anything about that in a 4x4 either.

I left the motorway and took the motorhome over a mountain pass. It was
worrying but not impossible.

Last January I had to get into work no matter what the conditions. I did
so in a 4x4 fitted with winter tyres. It was still a difficult drive,
mostly complicated again by crashed and abandoned vehicles and I only
needed to switch in 4x4 high ratio once during the entire trip.


I simply want broader options than I have now.

I can't imagine what that means. It does sound a bit as if you are
imaging some magic on the part of 4WD. When you've had a go in one in
snow and experienced having all four wheels slipping at once you might
feel differently. Having 4WD can be good, and it can leave you worse
off, much depends on the driver. However since you're a driving god that
obviously doesn't apply in your case.

Vernon wrote:

We used to have a Mk1 Discovery V8 Auto, and I never had any problems
with it running away downhill, select low range and 1st and it would
just trickle along nicely, the V8 producing plenty of engine braking.

Much depends on the slope. And there's really not much engine braking in
an Auto 4x4, V8 or not.

"Roger Chapman" wrote in message
...
On 28/11/2010 13:13, sweetheart wrote:

I dont necessarily want it for off road or bad weather . I would prefer
to avoid both but the fact remains that most 4x4's got out of the
village last year when I couldnt. I simply want broader options than I
have now.

Good round clearance, snow tyres and manual transmission.

Good ground clearance would be useful ( especially if the river runs to
flood as it did last week. But manual not necessarily. As I said, I
cannot afford to be reliant on OH who doesn't even want to get out of
bed anymore.

I was putting manual forward as a suggestion as to why other 4x4s got out
but you didn't.

But the manuals didnt get out. The automatics did. I my two wheel drive
didnt make it ( although I got further than most), the four wheel
autmomatics got out. The two wheel manuals ( and my automatic front wheel
drive did better than them) didnt get beyond the first corner. hence 4x4
automatic seems to be the choice.

On Nov 28, 1:56*pm, Vernon wrote:
On 28/11/2010 13:13, sweetheart wrote:







"Roger Chapman" wrote in message
...
On 28/11/2010 12:44, sweetheart wrote:

I dont necessarily want it for off road or bad weather . I would prefer
to avoid both but the fact remains that most 4x4's got out of the
village last year when I couldnt. I simply want broader options than I
have now.

Good round clearance, snow tyres and manual transmission.

Good ground clearance would be useful ( especially if the river runs to
flood as it did last week. But manual not necessarily. As I said, I
cannot afford to be reliant on OH who doesn't even want to get out of
bed anymore.

I suppose a lot of my fears ( and even the chip on my shoulder) is a
result of too many people wanting to extol the virtues of their manual
cars even when those cars do not prove themselves . The numbers who got
stranded in the snow last year and the number who couldn't hack the
floods recently for example.

My automatic has managed both but I still end up fearful because of all
the comments of others. Why does my car go when theirs don't seems to be
a question in my mind? Equally, why do 4x4 autos get out of the village
when I got stuck at the bottom of the hill on sheet ice?

Most modern 4x4 have fat tyres, which are absolutely useless in
snowy/icy conditions, older landrovers had skinny tyres. Same with cars,
BMW etc have fat tyres, small supermini tend to have thin. You only need
to look at the news, BMW etc struggling to make progress, passed by a
fiat panda or such like.

Skinny tyres allow the car to make better progress as there is more
weight per square inch on the road. Combined with knobbly tyres on a 4x4
or snow chains on a car, means you can make the most of what grip is
available, obviously a 4wd sends less power to each wheel so it is
easier to get traction and move off. That might explain why you could
not get up the hill, as you could not get enough traction. Snow chains
might have helped, as would winter tyres.

Some time ago, top gear did a test of 4x4s to see how far they would go
across a grass field with a bit of a slope, they all got stuck, the
Range Rover got the furthest, but the farmers old series 3 land rover
with the right tyres drove past the lot of them.

How about a fiat panda 4x4?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Performance related to tire width is very dependent on the exact
conditions. Sometime narrow tires would be better, sometimes not.
Anything Clarkeson comes out with is ********, you should know that.
I thought 4x4 Pandas disspeared years ago. There was a 4x4 craze for
about two years I seem to remember for all cars. You could hardly
find a 2WD at one point

On Nov 28, 1:57*pm, (Steve Firth) wrote:
sweetheart hotmail.com wrote:
I dont necessarily want it for off road or bad weather . I would prefer to
avoid both but the fact remains that most 4x4's got out of the village last
year when I couldnt.

What tyres do you have on your car? Do you own a set of snow chains? I
woudl guess that the 4x4s you refer to probably had AT tyres which are
an "all season" type, so not as good as proper winter tyres but better
than the ones fitted to most saloons as standard.

Swedes, the Swiss and others manage all year round in far worse
conditions than the UK without needing 4x4 vehicles. In fact front-wheel
drive vehicles are preferred by many who drive in these conditions and
they simply use the appropriate tyres for the job.

FWIW, I took a Fiat Ducato based motorhome (front wheel drive) over the
Dolomites in heavy snow a couple of years ago, summer tyres, no snow
chains, about 9-15 inches of snow on the road. I made it from Italy to
Basel where we stopped for the night. Progress was slow, but steady. I
saw many 4x4s crashed out at the side of the road, and was in the
company of several drivers in SAABS and Peugeots, all moving. The only
problem came at an uphill section where crashed vehicles littered all
three lanes. You can't do anything about that in a 4x4 either.

I left the motorway and took the motorhome over a mountain pass. It was
worrying but not impossible.

Last January I had to get into work no matter what the conditions. I did
so in a 4x4 fitted with winter tyres. It was still a difficult drive,
mostly complicated again by crashed and abandoned vehicles and I only
needed to switch in 4x4 high ratio once during the entire trip.

I simply want broader options than I have now.

I can't imagine what that means. It does sound a bit as if you are
imaging some magic on the part of 4WD. When you've had a go in one in
snow and experienced having all four wheels slipping at once you might
feel differently. Having 4WD can be good, and it can leave you worse
off, much depends on the driver. However since you're a driving god that
obviously doesn't apply in your case.

The Swedea and the Krauts use studded tires. No magic secrets there.

Roger Chapman wrote:

I don't see why the advice should to switch from Auto to Lock unless the
weight distribution is exactly 50/50 which seems unlikely for this
vehicle.

I suspect, especially since the position is labelled as "LOCK" that this
setting locks the front/rear differential giving equal power
distribution front and rear. Because the diff is locked, this means that
if a front wheel slips the rear will still be able to turn and vice
versa. If the diff. were not locked then a slip on any wheel would
prevent the other three from turning.

The negative aspect is that if conditions improve this setting will
result in transmission "wind up" in which twist is induced in the prop
shafts and half axles. Running with the diff locked on dry tarmac will
result in damage.

This is all quite normal and the advice about the Dacia doesn't mean
that is "essentially a front wheel drive vehicle".

Vernon wrote:

How about a fiat panda 4x4?

Also a good choice, but the Seidici is a better one for general motoring
in my opinion.

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
...
sweetheart hotmail.com wrote:

I dont necessarily want it for off road or bad weather . I would prefer
to
avoid both but the fact remains that most 4x4's got out of the village
last
year when I couldnt.

What tyres do you have on your car? Do you own a set of snow chains?

You do know snow chains are illegal dont you? I have a set of good tyres,
nothing more - all new. Continentals, they type Renault put on the car.

Thats not acceptable is it? O havent commented on anyone being a bad
driver- except when some clown decided to claim that driving a manual made
HIM more " capable" than I was.

It is true I do not break the speed limit. I t is true I drive safe and
sure rather than fast and aggressively. But I do drive in accordance with
road and traffic conditions. Not too slowly I would hope. I would not claim
to be perfect. I do claim a point free licence and an accident free thirty
years of driving though and I am on the road every day and I travel
distances in all weathers ( not always a choice).

I need to change my OH's van. Its time to change his van as it has aged ( my
Clio is two years old, his van is 7 uears old now). I would like a car
rather than a van, automatic as opposed to manual so I can drive it when
necessary ( since the God male in my home seems to think that reired means
stay in bed and get the little woman to do all things, whilst he
pontificates but thats another story). I was under the impression 4x4 were
good in rural areas as thats where I live and most people here have them.
Most here also seem to have the automatic transmission version too . Maybe
they are all wrong too?

On 28/11/2010 in message Huge wrote:

On 2010-11-28, Jeff Gaines wrote:

Having an automatic box removes many of the benefits of 4 WD,

Care to elaborate?

In a word 'control' - the ability to control the linkage between the
engine and transmission yourself.

--
Jeff Gaines Wiltshire UK
This is as bad as it can get, but don't bet on it

Vernon wrote:
On 28/11/2010 13:13, sweetheart wrote:

"Roger Chapman" wrote in message
...
On 28/11/2010 12:44, sweetheart wrote:

I dont necessarily want it for off road or bad weather . I would prefer
to avoid both but the fact remains that most 4x4's got out of the
village last year when I couldnt. I simply want broader options than I
have now.

Good round clearance, snow tyres and manual transmission.

Good ground clearance would be useful ( especially if the river runs to
flood as it did last week. But manual not necessarily. As I said, I
cannot afford to be reliant on OH who doesn't even want to get out of
bed anymore.

I suppose a lot of my fears ( and even the chip on my shoulder) is a
result of too many people wanting to extol the virtues of their manual
cars even when those cars do not prove themselves . The numbers who got
stranded in the snow last year and the number who couldn't hack the
floods recently for example.

My automatic has managed both but I still end up fearful because of all
the comments of others. Why does my car go when theirs don't seems to be
a question in my mind? Equally, why do 4x4 autos get out of the village
when I got stuck at the bottom of the hill on sheet ice?

Most modern 4x4 have fat tyres, which are absolutely useless in
snowy/icy conditions, older landrovers had skinny tyres. Same with cars,
BMW etc have fat tyres, small supermini tend to have thin. You only need
to look at the news, BMW etc struggling to make progress, passed by a
fiat panda or such like.

Skinny tyres allow the car to make better progress as there is more
weight per square inch on the road. Combined with knobbly tyres on a 4x4
or snow chains on a car, means you can make the most of what grip is
available, obviously a 4wd sends less power to each wheel so it is
easier to get traction and move off. That might explain why you could
not get up the hill, as you could not get enough traction. Snow chains
might have helped, as would winter tyres.

Some time ago, top gear did a test of 4x4s to see how far they would go
across a grass field with a bit of a slope, they all got stuck, the
Range Rover got the furthest, but the farmers old series 3 land rover
with the right tyres drove past the lot of them.


That is the key. Of all my 4x4s the series III landy with military
tyres, like a tractor, was the best.

If snow and mud are something you have to deal with a winter set of
wheels - cheap steels - with M&S tyres on are what you want. Put those
on in December. Go back to road tyres in March.




How about a fiat panda 4x4?

"Jeff Gaines" wrote in message
...
On 28/11/2010 in message Huge wrote:

On 2010-11-28, Jeff Gaines wrote:

Having an automatic box removes many of the benefits of 4 WD,

Care to elaborate?

In a word 'control' - the ability to control the linkage between the
engine and transmission yourself.

But only if you are any good at that. The majority of average drivers in my
experience are not that good. They may think they are but what thought does
is not necessary a correspond to events or fact does it? I have to say
this , I am getting fed up. I didnt ask for this to go to the " driving
experts". I had hoped for some straighfroward simple " I have this car , I
would recommend it" or conversly " dont get this its rubbish" type answers.

On 28/11/2010 13:56, Vernon wrote:


Most modern 4x4 have fat tyres, which are absolutely useless in
snowy/icy conditions, older landrovers had skinny tyres. Same with cars,
BMW etc have fat tyres, small supermini tend to have thin. You only need
to look at the news, BMW etc struggling to make progress, passed by a
fiat panda or such like.

I wouldn't have called the crossply remoulds I had on my 2A SWB LR
skinny. They did have a much better tread for mud and snow than the
radials I had on my later Ranger Rover.

BMWs struggle in snow for the very reasons that make them such nice cars
to drive for most of the year - rear wheel drive and near 50/50 weight
distribution. Front wheel drive gives a very significant advantage when
it is really slippy (pull not push) as does loading the driven wheels
with 70% or more of overall weight.

Skinny tyres allow the car to make better progress as there is more
weight per square inch on the road. Combined with knobbly tyres on a 4x4
or snow chains on a car, means you can make the most of what grip is
available, obviously a 4wd sends less power to each wheel so it is
easier to get traction and move off. That might explain why you could
not get up the hill, as you could not get enough traction. Snow chains
might have helped, as would winter tyres.

Fat tyres per se make next to no difference. With radials the tyre
footprint is very much determined by the tyre pressure, not the tyre
width, other things being equal.

Some time ago, top gear did a test of 4x4s to see how far they would go
across a grass field with a bit of a slope, they all got stuck, the
Range Rover got the furthest, but the farmers old series 3 land rover
with the right tyres drove past the lot of them.

Down to tyres. Modern road tyres clog with mud very easily and once that
happens you effectively have slick tyres.

harry wrote:
On Nov 28, 11:59 am, Huge wrote:
On 2010-11-28, Jeff Gaines wrote:

Having an automatic box removes many of the benefits of 4 WD,
Care to elaborate?

--
Today is Boomtime, the 40th day of The Aftermath in the YOLD 3176
"Always mount a scratch monkey."

This is true. For off road use and heavy towing. You need full
control of the gears for descents and the like. But as a Chelsea
tractor very little difference.

Most modern boxes have manual override.

Torque converters are better than clutches for hill starts and getting
out of mud.

Personally I think te auto box is a BETTER off road option.

I certainly take mine (freelander) all through the mud and snow!

I regularly use the manual option under certain conditions: the joy is
not being FORCED to in town

harry wrote:

I thought 4x4 Pandas disspeared years ago.

It's a current model you dimwit.

harry wrote:

The Swedea and the Krauts use studded tires. No magic secrets there.

No one is saying anything about "magic secrets" other than you. You are
wrong about Germany studded tyres are banned there. The use of winter
tyres is mandatory in Germany, winter tyres are not (necessarily)
studded, although mine have holes for studs to be mounted if required.

Although studded tyres are sometimes used in Sweden, they are not the
norm and are only used in lattitudes that have permanent snow in winter.
Studded tyres drastically degrade performance on tarmac surfaces.

As usual Harry old boy, you're full of (sh)it.

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
Vernon wrote:
On 28/11/2010 13:13, sweetheart wrote:

"Roger Chapman" wrote in message
...
On 28/11/2010 12:44, sweetheart wrote:


How about a fiat panda 4x4?

I don't know, is there one? I only have a Fiat scudo because it was
available and the right size at the time. I do not have any strong
preferences for make. As long as it is reliable . Available would be good
but I had it in mind to get together a number of possibles and then ask the
local second hand car dealer to get me a " nearly new" of whatever was on
the list. Have done that successfully before ( and said bloke is reliable
and doesn't sniff at my requests - unlike the main dealerships with new
cars.)

On 28/11/2010 13:57, Steve Firth wrote:
wrote:

We used to have a Mk1 Discovery V8 Auto, and I never had any problems
with it running away downhill, select low range and 1st and it would
just trickle along nicely, the V8 producing plenty of engine braking.

Much depends on the slope. And there's really not much engine braking in
an Auto 4x4, V8 or not.

Well in low range and manually selecting 1st our discovery would descend
at a slow walking pace and that was down steep off road tracks. I would
say the speed was comparable to a series landrover with feet off the
pedals.

To the OP if you really need a something to get through the snow etc,
get a BV206 they are automatic, road legal and you can drive it on a car
licence, and you really do have to drive like a tosser to get that
stuck, you would have had no chance in a car!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRuYUZmhQUQ

"sweetheart" hotmail.com wrote in message
...

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
Vernon wrote:
On 28/11/2010 13:13, sweetheart wrote:

"Roger Chapman" wrote in message
...
On 28/11/2010 12:44, sweetheart wrote:


How about a fiat panda 4x4?

I don't know, is there one? I only have a Fiat scudo because it was
available and the right size at the time. I do not have any strong
preferences for make. As long as it is reliable . Available would be good
but I had it in mind to get together a number of possibles and then ask
the
local second hand car dealer to get me a " nearly new" of whatever was
on
the list. Have done that successfully before ( and said bloke is reliable
and doesn't sniff at my requests - unlike the main dealerships with new
cars.)

I would add , this car, whatever I get is to be my OH's Christmas/ birthday
present. He wont get anything else. The most likely usage will be to his
sisters and back into Plymouth ( and the odd trip for me in bad weather or
when I cannot take my own). We live in a village. We are isolated and off
the main gritted roads. Cornwall County Council is not to be given bouquests
for their ability to clear the village roads ( even A and B roads). Last
year they left us nearly three weeks without rubbish collections or any
other services or trying to clear the roads but claimed the roads were
clear because they had gritted the main A 390 and A 38 and A 30!

"Roger Chapman" wrote in message
...
On 28/11/2010 13:56, Vernon wrote:


BMWs struggle in snow for the very reasons that make them such nice cars
to drive for most of the year - rear wheel drive and near 50/50 weight
distribution. Front wheel drive gives a very significant advantage when it
is really slippy (pull not push) as does loading the driven wheels with
70% or more of overall weight.

Which probably explains why my Clio does well. Its a very heavy and stable
car. Some " experts" have suggested too heavy in the reviews I have read.
Its not a go faster , its a solid drive.

sweetheart hotmail.com wrote:

I would add , this car, whatever I get is to be my OH's Christmas/
birthday present. He wont get anything else.

That's probably what's wrong with him and why he won't help you:-)

--
Adam

OK , so what I have on my list so far is
Subaru,
Freelander
Discovery,
Panda 4x4
Seidici
Dacia
Honda CRV ( not sure of the initials)
and possibly a Suzuki Vitaria
????

"ARWadsworth" wrote in message
...
sweetheart hotmail.com wrote:

I would add , this car, whatever I get is to be my OH's Christmas/
birthday present. He wont get anything else.

That's probably what's wrong with him and why he won't help you:-)

Why? dont men like to get new ( er) cars for their birthday when their old
one is getting past it?
He hasn't asked for anything else and a car is useful to him. I am choosing
it simply because he wont go with me to sort it out himself.

On 28/11/2010 14:45, sweetheart wrote:
OK , so what I have on my list so far is
Subaru,
Freelander
Discovery,
Panda 4x4
Seidici
Dacia Honda CRV ( not sure of the initials) and possibly a Suzuki Vitaria
????
Sinclair C5

--
Clive

On 28/11/2010 14:34, Vernon wrote:

To the OP if you really need a something to get through the snow etc,
get a BV206 they are automatic, road legal and you can drive it on a car
licence, and you really do have to drive like a tosser to get that
stuck, you would have had no chance in a car!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRuYUZmhQUQ


Oh dear! A stuck Land Rover. ;-)

The landlady at the Tan Hill Inn had a tracked vehicle similar to that.
It got an airing on national telly after the deep freeze at the
beginning of the year.

News to me that you can drive a tracked vehicle on an ordinary driving
licence. My tatty bit of green paper (I have not moved since 1978) gives
me groups A and E (moped). A is "Any motor vehicle other than a vehicle
in Group X". The excluded group X is "Motor bicycle which is not
electrically propelled [part of group D]; road roller [group G]; vehicle
steered by its tracks [group H]; invalid carriage [group J]; trolley
vehicle [group N]

sweetheart wrote:

You do know snow chains are illegal dont you?

"Great Britain - Permitted"

http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/overseas/snow-chains-winter-tyres.html

On Nov 28, 2:28*pm, (Steve Firth) wrote:
harry wrote:
I thought 4x4 Pandas disspeared years ago.

It's a current model you dimwit.

That so?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_Pa..._of_production

If this is for traction in cold/winter weather, consider the
economics.

4x4 have 8 CV joints, CV boots, more complicated gearbox & repairs,
lower fuel economy, lower tyre life, higher maintenance costs in
general. Plus when changing a car it is always possible to end up with
a lemon, and considering the 2008-2010 recession and credit problems
people have not been paying out for maintenance so the used market is
"a bit rough in places" in terms of buying a heap of bills.

Snow tyres and a cheap set of steel wheels are certainly not cheap,
but they will outperform a 4x4 in many instances because they both
assist in getting-you-going and getting-you-stopped. A 4x4 is better
at getting going, but in general unless you have appropriate tyres you
will have not much improvement in stopping. Consider the bulk of
scandinavia, canada & usa do quite fine with FWD or RWD cars fitted
with snow-tyres. Some do fit chains, but that tends to be for
mountainous regions which are not common in the UK.

On balance I would get a set of snow tyres & dedicated steel wheels.
That way you can get going AND stop. Plenty of 4x4s in ditches because
they got going, but lacked any similar improvement in brakes & grip
with which to do much else.

On 28/11/2010 14:45, sweetheart wrote:
OK , so what I have on my list so far is
Freelander
Discovery,

I thought you wanted medium sized, reliable, economic?

"Huge" wrote in message
...
On 2010-11-28, sweetheart hotmail.com wrote:

I had hoped for some straighfroward simple " I have this car , I
would recommend it"

In which case, buy a Discovery 3. I have this car. Marvellous bit of kit.

Although, since you haven't specified a budget, it may be a little
out of it.

I didnt specify a budget because there isnt one as such. You would be
surprised what I could afford Mr!

harry wrote:
On Nov 28, 2:28 pm, (Steve Firth) wrote:
harry wrote:
I thought 4x4 Pandas disspeared years ago.

It's a current model you dimwit.

That so?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_Pa..._of_production

Yes

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_Pa...93present. 29

--
Adam

To add, Kia do/did a very good 4x4 (good in that it is actually
capable of doing offroad, many are not).

Check crash data on the older 4x4, the suzuki stuff is not very good
and I have seen three "front-rear skip" on emergency stops. By skip I
mean the shock absorber dampening is inadequate, which combined with
certain tyre combinations resulted in the tyres skipping on emergency
stops thus greatly increasing stopping distance. Like a cartoon trying
to stop, the weight transfer to the front springs on braking caused a
rebound-skip-contact-rebound-skip motion. Sounds funny until you see
it hit the pedestrians who ran out across the pedestrian crossing, the
old escort alongside going faster stopped short. Similar experienced
by a colleague in Spain with a hire car, perhaps the shocks were worn
- but I have seen three suzuki 4x4 do it myself in the past 10yrs,
only one was an "old" red suzuki, the others were very new white
Vitara.

For just trips thro snow, snow tyres win.
Modern tyre compound freezes, tyres tend to be relatively low profile
& high performance summer rating, shock absorbers have relatively high
stiction causing weight transfer off FWD very easily indeed.

I have driven for 30 years with no troubles at all. I drive 100 miles a
day, and on rural roads, so not exactly without experience of difficult
roads. However, you are right, I am limited. I have a slight dyspraxia
which limits my ability to co ordinate my left foot for the clutch.
Thats
the issue. Not a " disability" officially, so not motorbility
challenged,
just safer in an automatic.

Probably safer than you my friend.

I generally find that people who prattle on that they are "safe" are
anything but, generally they are (a) slow and (b) lucky and usually (c)
don't drive very far. You may be the sole exception, but on usenet you
can make all the claims you want about how good a driver you are and
they don't amount to a hll of beans.

Equally true of those who prattle on that a driver of a manual car is "
more capanle " than one who drives an automatic I am sure. There is far
more to driving than changing gear using a clutch. Hills of beans indeed.

Ignore the idiots who think they are better than you because they have a
licence that includes manual gearboxes. In fact automatics mean the driver
has more time to concentrate on the important aspects of driving. Be aware
that 4WD does not mean you will be invincible in bad weather which is a trap
many fall into. In the last two days I have encountered three 4WD vehicles
stuck min snow because the drivers had no idea of how to drive on an icy
road. Once you have your chosen vehicle go and get some professional
tuition at an off road centre to learn how to get the best out of your
vehicle. With the mileage you do choose a diesel if possible because the
savings are significant. Good luck with your quest.

Peter Crosland

"Huge" wrote in message
...
On 2010-11-28, sweetheart hotmail.com wrote:

"Huge" wrote in message
...
On 2010-11-28, sweetheart hotmail.com wrote:

I had hoped for some straighfroward simple " I have this car , I
would recommend it"

In which case, buy a Discovery 3. I have this car. Marvellous bit of
kit.

Although, since you haven't specified a budget, it may be a little
out of it.

I didnt specify a budget because there isnt one as such. You would be
surprised what I could afford Mr!

Such statements are stupid and pointless on Usenet. We don't know
who you are or what you can afford.

Exactly. I didnt set a budget. People seem to assume I cannot afford a lot
of money. I can afford what it takes. Thats the budget.

On 28 Nov 2010 15:11:34 GMT, Huge wrote:

You do know snow chains are illegal dont you?

Rubbish.

Correct but unless you have suffcient compacted snow depth to prevent
contact between chain and road surface you shouldn't use 'em. You'll
knacker your tyres and damage the road surafce. Constantly putting
'em on taking 'em off in 6" of snow and freezing cold would become a
PITA after the first couple of occasions...

For the UK, with mainly treated roads and very rarely deep enough
compacted snow to allow the use of chains, proper winter tyres are
the best option. Ordinary "all season" ones aren't bad, but proper
winter ones will do better. If your tyres don't have a goodly number
of the narrow cuts (sipes) across the face of the blocks they aren't
going to perform very well on snow. My winter set have wiggly sipes
across the full width of the tread spaced every 5mm. They grip very
well on snow far far better than the tyres that came with the car,
very similar groove/block pattern but with virtually no sipes.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Sun, 28 Nov 2010 07:26:17 -0800 (PST), harry
wrote:

On Nov 28, 2:28*pm, (Steve Firth) wrote:
harry wrote:
I thought 4x4 Pandas disspeared years ago.

It's a current model you dimwit.

That so?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_Pa..._of_production

"The New Panda 4x4 Climbing version was introduced almost two years
later"

--

Ian D