Please do not get sniffy. I drive an automatic car. I do not have a manual
licence ( OH does b ut I cant be reliant on him!) . I am not a confident
driver although I am SAFE, that was why I got an automatic in the first
place. I travel 100 miles a day to work and back without incident, so there.

Now, I want to get a 4x4 car. I don't mind if it is second hand ( I will go
to a dealer) or new.
I have a automatic Clio currently and my PH has a little used ( about 500
miles in three years!) Scudo van. I was thinking to change the Scudo for a
4x4 - possibly keeping my 2 year old Clio ( although I might have to change
his van for an older 4x4 and even a manual depending on what I can get).

Thats the scenario. Now, what sort of 4x4 is good - OK? I don't need a big
one or that fancy, just reliable. I had been looking at a Suzuki Jimny. The
problem is I have been to several dealers fora NEW ( brand new) car and
found them very sniffy when I mentioned wanting an automatic. I have looked
on the web sites of many manufacturers but they don't state which vehicles
they will do as an automatic option.

I have found this before , so its not new to me but is a problem and I am
tired and don't have time to sort through it and take the flack. My old
Renault dealership when were helpful has been taken over by a big firm who
are sniffy about anyone who mentions automatics! I could do with some
advice. I don't need to be patronized please, I have had that from men in
the motor trade. ( No , this is not my inheritance money but I do need a 4x4
to keep travelling 400 miles a month this winter to sort out the house I
have inherited. OH van is 2004 and could do with changing too so a 4x4 could
be a better option).

Thanks for any help in selecting a suitable vehicle. Smallish, economic and
reliable are the criteria - not big and blousy and "boys toy". I don't care
about eco friendly. I need a car to get from A - B and is useable in all
weathers.

On Nov 28, 9:34*am, "sweetheart" hotmail.com wrote:
Please do not get sniffy. I drive an automatic car. I do not have a manual
licence ( OH does b ut I cant be reliant on him!) . I am not a confident
driver although I am SAFE, that was why I got an automatic in the first
place. I travel 100 miles a day to work and back without incident, so there.

Now, I want to get a 4x4 car. I don't mind if it is second hand ( I will go
to a dealer) or new.
I have a automatic Clio currently and my PH has a little used ( about 500
miles *in three years!) Scudo van. I was thinking to change the Scudo for a
4x4 - possibly keeping my 2 year old Clio ( although I might have to change
his van for an older 4x4 *and even a manual depending on what I can get).

Thats the scenario. Now, what sort of 4x4 is good - OK? *I don't need a big
one or that fancy, just reliable. I had been looking at a Suzuki Jimny. The
problem is I have been to several dealers fora NEW ( brand new) car and
found them very sniffy when I mentioned wanting an automatic. I have looked
on the web sites of many manufacturers but they don't state which vehicles
they will do as an automatic option.

I have found this before , so its not new to me but is a problem and I am
tired and don't have time to sort through it and take the flack. My old
Renault *dealership when were helpful *has been taken over by a big firm who
are sniffy about anyone who mentions automatics! *I could do with some
advice. I don't *need to be patronized please, I have had that from men in
the motor trade. ( No , this is not my inheritance money but I do need a 4x4
to keep travelling 400 miles a month this winter to sort out the house I
have inherited. OH van is 2004 and could do with changing too so a 4x4 could
be a better option).

Thanks for any help in selecting a suitable vehicle. Smallish, economic and
reliable are the criteria - not big and blousy and "boys toy". I don't care
about eco friendly. I need a car to get from A - B and is useable in all
weathers.

x-posted to uk.rec.driving - ask the experts !

On 28/11/2010 10:07, Jethro wrote:

Thanks for any help in selecting a suitable vehicle. Smallish, economic and
reliable are the criteria - not big and blousy and "boys toy". I don't care
about eco friendly. I need a car to get from A - B and is useable in all
weathers.

Subaru seem to have traditional autos with a torque convertor, and the
Forester or Impreza estate would be not B&B&BT

sweetheart wrote:
Please do not get sniffy. I drive an automatic car. I do not have a
manual licence ( OH does b ut I cant be reliant on him!) . I am not a
confident driver although I am SAFE, that was why I got an automatic
in the first place. I travel 100 miles a day to work and back without
incident, so there.
Now, I want to get a 4x4 car. I don't mind if it is second hand ( I
will go to a dealer) or new.
I have a automatic Clio currently and my PH has a little used ( about
500 miles in three years!) Scudo van. I was thinking to change the
Scudo for a 4x4 - possibly keeping my 2 year old Clio ( although I
might have to change his van for an older 4x4 and even a manual
depending on what I can get).
Thats the scenario. Now, what sort of 4x4 is good - OK? I don't need
a big one or that fancy, just reliable. I had been looking at a
Suzuki Jimny. The problem is I have been to several dealers fora NEW
( brand new) car and found them very sniffy when I mentioned wanting
an automatic. I have looked on the web sites of many manufacturers
but they don't state which vehicles they will do as an automatic
option.
I have found this before , so its not new to me but is a problem and
I am tired and don't have time to sort through it and take the flack.
My old Renault dealership when were helpful has been taken over by
a big firm who are sniffy about anyone who mentions automatics! I
could do with some advice. I don't need to be patronized please, I
have had that from men in the motor trade. ( No , this is not my
inheritance money but I do need a 4x4 to keep travelling 400 miles a
month this winter to sort out the house I have inherited. OH van is
2004 and could do with changing too so a 4x4 could be a better
option).
Thanks for any help in selecting a suitable vehicle. Smallish,
economic and reliable are the criteria - not big and blousy and "boys
toy". I don't care about eco friendly. I need a car to get from A - B
and is useable in all weathers.

I know nothing about 4x4 cars so can't answer your question but, having
driven automatics for the last 25 years, I don't understand what problem
you're having in getting an auto. You say the dealers/salesmen are "sniffy"
about autos - just tell them in no uncertain terms that that is what you
want, end of.

When I passed my test at 17 back in 1975 I thought auto's were wussy and I
never, ever, wanted one - until I drove one a few years later. Automatic
gearboxes are definitely one of mankind's better inventions and I would
never go back to a manual transmission now.

Pete Zahut wrote:
sweetheart wrote:
Please do not get sniffy. I drive an automatic car. I do not have a
manual licence ( OH does b ut I cant be reliant on him!) . I am not a
confident driver although I am SAFE, that was why I got an automatic
in the first place. I travel 100 miles a day to work and back without
incident, so there.
Now, I want to get a 4x4 car. I don't mind if it is second hand ( I
will go to a dealer) or new.
I have a automatic Clio currently and my PH has a little used ( about
500 miles in three years!) Scudo van. I was thinking to change the
Scudo for a 4x4 - possibly keeping my 2 year old Clio ( although I
might have to change his van for an older 4x4 and even a manual
depending on what I can get).
Thats the scenario. Now, what sort of 4x4 is good - OK? I don't need
a big one or that fancy, just reliable. I had been looking at a
Suzuki Jimny. The problem is I have been to several dealers fora NEW
( brand new) car and found them very sniffy when I mentioned wanting
an automatic. I have looked on the web sites of many manufacturers
but they don't state which vehicles they will do as an automatic
option.
I have found this before , so its not new to me but is a problem and
I am tired and don't have time to sort through it and take the flack.
My old Renault dealership when were helpful has been taken over by
a big firm who are sniffy about anyone who mentions automatics! I
could do with some advice. I don't need to be patronized please, I
have had that from men in the motor trade. ( No , this is not my
inheritance money but I do need a 4x4 to keep travelling 400 miles a
month this winter to sort out the house I have inherited. OH van is
2004 and could do with changing too so a 4x4 could be a better
option).
Thanks for any help in selecting a suitable vehicle. Smallish,
economic and reliable are the criteria - not big and blousy and "boys
toy". I don't care about eco friendly. I need a car to get from A - B
and is useable in all weathers.

I know nothing about 4x4 cars so can't answer your question but, having
driven automatics for the last 25 years, I don't understand what problem
you're having in getting an auto. You say the dealers/salesmen are "sniffy"
about autos - just tell them in no uncertain terms that that is what you
want, end of.

When I passed my test at 17 back in 1975 I thought auto's were wussy and I
never, ever, wanted one - until I drove one a few years later. Automatic
gearboxes are definitely one of mankind's better inventions and I would
never go back to a manual transmission now.


there is no doubt that manual is more fuel efficient and generally
better for smooth fast driving, but the wear and tear on the left foot
and the left arm in traffic..

As I get older and my reflexes are not what they were, the auto is more
and more useful.

Really, only 10% of the population could be said to drive a manual
better than an automatic would,and I am not sure I count in that group
any more.

sweetheart hotmail.com wrote:

( No , this is not my inheritance money but I do need a 4x4
to keep travelling 400 miles a month this winter to sort out the house I
have inherited. OH van is 2004 and could do with changing too so a 4x4 could
be a better option).

Firstly, uk.d-i-y is not the usual place to ask this sort of question.
The idea of Usenet is that there are a number of newsgroups and the
title gives some clue to the sort of post that is on topic. You may get
better answers or a better range of answers from uk.rec.cars.misc or
uk.rec.driving, although having said that many people post there and
here.

You also haven't given a budget or a preference for fuel type which
makes recommending a particular vehicle somewhat difficult.

Your post gives the impression that you think that a 4x4 will work some
magic and allow you to drive through conditions that will defeat other
cars or that a 4x4 will somehow be "safer" in these conditions. Neither
statement is necessarily true and in last year's snow I passed many
stranded 4x4s. If you're going to get the best out of a 4x4 you need to
get some training in addition to having a driving licence, particularly
if you have never driven a 4x4 before. Also an automatic 4x4 is markedly
inferior in coping with poor road conditions than a manual car.

Have you given a thought to the fact that many automatic 4x4 vehicles
actually have multiple gear levers? For example I have two 4x4s at
present, a Jeep and a Ford. The Jeep makes use of a second gear lever to
change between 4x4 High ratio and 4x4 Low ratio. The Ford has a selector
switch for rear wheel drive only, 4x4 high, 4x4 low. Other 4x4s also
have other controls such as differential locks. If you're not confident
or able to drive a manual, is a 4x4 with its plethora of controls going
to be right for you? Only you can answer these questions and I'd
recommend that before you spend cash on a 4x4 you actually get
experience of driving one.

As to which one, again you have to decide. Do you want an off-road 4x4
(Land Rover/Jeep in appearance) or would you be happy with a 4x4 saloon
car?

For someone who has no experience of using a 4x4 I'd recommend a Subaru
Forester. These are essentially car-like, available with automatic
gearboxes and are well built. You could also consider a Subaru Impreza,
which is even more car like. The Forester is more "utility vehicle" and
was designed around the needs of people who have horses or small farms
and who need a tough vehicle with 4x4. Good low mileage Foresters and
Imprezas start around £5k.

The other thing you need to think about is tyres. The tyres fitted to
all cars and 4x4s in the UK are inadequate for winter use in snow. If
you're going to be driving in snow you need to change the tyres on the
vehicle to ones suitable for snow. These may be referred to as "Mud and
Snow" or "Winter" although you can also use "All Terrain (AT)" tyres.

Winter tyres for a Forester will cost you about £100-130 each.


You'd also be well advised to pack a snow shovel, water,
blankets/sleeping bags, HiVis vests or an insulated workman's
fluorescent jacket, a torch and batteries and possibly some source of
food that will last in the car. As mentioned earlier, I passed many 4x4s
stranded in the snow last year and I heard that many drivers were in
their cars for one to two days.

A Suzuki Jimny IMO isn't right for what you want, it's a car that be
rolled fairly easily hence not a good first 4x4, and it would crucify
anyone driving several hundred miles a week. If you insist on one of
those then there is an automatic version. Check Autotrader to see if one
is in a garage near you. Note that you have this week a choice of 10
auto Jimnys in the UK and 76 auto Foresters, so the Jimny auto is a rare
(difficult to find) vehicle.

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
.. .
sweetheart hotmail.com wrote:


Firstly, uk.d-i-y is not the usual place to ask this sort of question.
The idea of Usenet is that there are a number of newsgroups and the
title gives some clue to the sort of post that is on topic. You may get
better answers or a better range of answers from uk.rec.cars.misc or
uk.rec.driving, although having said that many people post there and
here.

You also haven't given a budget or a preference for fuel type which
makes recommending a particular vehicle somewhat difficult.

Your post gives the impression that you think that a 4x4 will work some
magic and allow you to drive through conditions that will defeat other
cars or that a 4x4 will somehow be "safer" in these conditions. Neither
statement is necessarily true and in last year's snow I passed many
stranded 4x4s. If you're going to get the best out of a 4x4 you need to
get some training in addition to having a driving licence, particularly
if you have never driven a 4x4 before. Also an automatic 4x4 is markedly
inferior in coping with poor road conditions than a manual car.

Have you given a thought to the fact that many automatic 4x4 vehicles
actually have multiple gear levers? For example I have two 4x4s at
present, a Jeep and a Ford. The Jeep makes use of a second gear lever to
change between 4x4 High ratio and 4x4 Low ratio. The Ford has a selector
switch for rear wheel drive only, 4x4 high, 4x4 low. Other 4x4s also
have other controls such as differential locks. If you're not confident
or able to drive a manual, is a 4x4 with its plethora of controls going
to be right for you? Only you can answer these questions and I'd
recommend that before you spend cash on a 4x4 you actually get
experience of driving one.

As to which one, again you have to decide. Do you want an off-road 4x4
(Land Rover/Jeep in appearance) or would you be happy with a 4x4 saloon
car?

For someone who has no experience of using a 4x4 I'd recommend a Subaru
Forester. These are essentially car-like, available with automatic
gearboxes and are well built. You could also consider a Subaru Impreza,
which is even more car like. The Forester is more "utility vehicle" and
was designed around the needs of people who have horses or small farms
and who need a tough vehicle with 4x4. Good low mileage Foresters and
Imprezas start around £5k.

The other thing you need to think about is tyres. The tyres fitted to
all cars and 4x4s in the UK are inadequate for winter use in snow. If
you're going to be driving in snow you need to change the tyres on the
vehicle to ones suitable for snow. These may be referred to as "Mud and
Snow" or "Winter" although you can also use "All Terrain (AT)" tyres.

Winter tyres for a Forester will cost you about £100-130 each.


You'd also be well advised to pack a snow shovel, water,
blankets/sleeping bags, HiVis vests or an insulated workman's
fluorescent jacket, a torch and batteries and possibly some source of
food that will last in the car. As mentioned earlier, I passed many 4x4s
stranded in the snow last year and I heard that many drivers were in
their cars for one to two days.

A Suzuki Jimny IMO isn't right for what you want, it's a car that be
rolled fairly easily hence not a good first 4x4, and it would crucify
anyone driving several hundred miles a week. If you insist on one of
those then there is an automatic version. Check Autotrader to see if one
is in a garage near you. Note that you have this week a choice of 10
auto Jimnys in the UK and 76 auto Foresters, so the Jimny auto is a rare
(difficult to find) vehicle.

This is precisely what I mean about sniffy. The idea that because I drive an
automatic I haven't enough experience or I am inferior in some way.

I didn't state type of fuel because it doesn't matter. I didn't state budget
because it isn't that important - remember I am changing a 2 litre Scudo -
expensive all round for this.

As for driving in snow. I did 100 miles from Exeter to Cornwall in blizzards
last January , so I have experience of taking an automatic | ( Clio) over
dartmoor and Bodmin Moor in snow.
I also know about tyres, thanks.

I just thought a 4x4 would give me more options. I have a friend who has a
Jeep which is automatic and I didn't see a mass of levers in his car thanks.
Either way, please do not think that because I drive an automatic I cannot
drive. My licence limits me, not my skills.

But thanks for the information about the Jimny. Scratch that. Again though ,
I like driving smaller vehicles although I would prefer one that will give
me some flexibility ( not a saloon - I have a car .... my Clio, which I know
experts are also sinify about but remember my Clio passed loads of equally
stranded drivers of its " betters" on the way over Haldon Hill last year.)

Just looking for a decent , middle of the range vehicle . Not big and
blously and as I said not a " boys toy". I am not looking for a " Top
Gear" answer. I don't need a Jeremy Clarkson. I just want advice on a common
all garden decent and reliable car ( 4x4 still remains a favourite as it is
a common feature where I live - rural Cornwall , although no one type
predominates).

I prefer not to be sleeping out Thanks. I want to get home. I judge my
chances of that when I leave in a morning usually, although right now
weather forecasts are next to useless frankly. I cant even work out if I
should go sick Tuesday to avoid getting trapped in Exeter.

I asked in DIY and did put Off topic. I have usually found people in DIY to
be more practical and user friendly. Thanks.

"sweetheart" hotmail.com wrote in message
...

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
.. .
sweetheart hotmail.com wrote:

A Suzuki Jimny IMO isn't right for what you want, it's a car that be
rolled fairly easily hence not a good first 4x4, and it would crucify
anyone driving several hundred miles a week. If you insist on one of
those then there is an automatic version. Check Autotrader to see if one
is in a garage near you. Note that you have this week a choice of 10
auto Jimnys in the UK and 76 auto Foresters, so the Jimny auto is a rare
(difficult to find) vehicle.

Interestingly the What Car site suggests the Suzuki Jimny as a good all
rounder , quite different to here. So what am I to believe?

sweetheart hotmail.com wrote:


Interestingly the What Car site suggests the Suzuki Jimny as a good all
rounder , quite different to here. So what am I to believe?

Buy the car you want to buy, live with the consequences of your choice.
It's your money and will be your car. Personally I'd go for the Forester
it's an infinitely better vehicle than the Jimny. Here's a clue, which
of the two will you see most often on farms?

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
. ..
sweetheart hotmail.com wrote:


Interestingly the What Car site suggests the Suzuki Jimny as a good all
rounder , quite different to here. So what am I to believe?

Buy the car you want to buy, live with the consequences of your choice.
It's your money and will be your car. Personally I'd go for the Forester
it's an infinitely better vehicle than the Jimny. Here's a clue, which
of the two will you see most often on farms?

I have bever seen a Forester on a farm her. The old Land Rover ( usually so
old they are held together with string) seems popular. The Range Rover
seems to be the choice of the Fair ( as in those who go round with the
merry go rounds). The Suzuki seems a popular choice in the area where I
live hence I looked at it. Not one particular type though.

So, going on what I see on farms.... yeah ,

sweetheart hotmail.com wrote:


This is precisely what I mean about sniffy. The idea that because I drive an
automatic I haven't enough experience or I am inferior in some way.

Grow a thicker skin.

By definition someone who cannot pass a test to drive a manual car is
not as capable as someone who can. As to automatics, I have three cars,
two automatics and one semi-auto. But I took and passed the manual test
and drive manual cars on a regular basis.

I have a friend who has a Jeep which is automatic and I didn't see a mass
of levers in his car thanks.

Then I suggest you didn't look properly. There is a *huge* second gear
lever to the left of the automatic gear selector.

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
...
sweetheart hotmail.com wrote:


This is precisely what I mean about sniffy. The idea that because I drive
an
automatic I haven't enough experience or I am inferior in some way.

Grow a thicker skin.

By definition someone who cannot pass a test to drive a manual car is
not as capable as someone who can. As to automatics, I have three cars,
two automatics and one semi-auto. But I took and passed the manual test
and drive manual cars on a regular basis.

How many accidejnts have you had with your manual? I have driven for 30
years with no troubles at all. I drive 100 miles a day, and on rural roads,
so not exactly without experience of difficult roads. However, you are
right, I am limited. I have a slight dyspraxia which limits my ability to
co ordinate my left foot for the clutch. Thats the issue. Not a "
disability" officially, so not motorbility challenged, just safer in an
automatic.

Probably safer than you my friend.

"sweetheart" hotmail.com wrote in message
...

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
...
sweetheart hotmail.com wrote:


This is precisely what I mean about sniffy. The idea that because I
drive an
automatic I haven't enough experience or I am inferior in some way.

Grow a thicker skin.

By definition someone who cannot pass a test to drive a manual car is
not as capable as someone who can. As to automatics, I have three cars,
two automatics and one semi-auto. But I took and passed the manual test
and drive manual cars on a regular basis.

Probably safer than you my friend.

How do you define " as capable"? I tried for SIX years to co ordinate the
clutch in a manual car and failed. I bought an automatic and took the test
the next day and passed it first time. My driving skills match your sany
day in terms of my " capability" to steer, watch the road, anticipate etc.
I do not see that being good with the clutch makes you "more capable" as a
driver - just better with a clutch. Thats not driving,

sweetheart hotmail.com wrote:

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
...
sweetheart hotmail.com wrote:


This is precisely what I mean about sniffy. The idea that because I drive
an
automatic I haven't enough experience or I am inferior in some way.

Grow a thicker skin.

By definition someone who cannot pass a test to drive a manual car is
not as capable as someone who can. As to automatics, I have three cars,
two automatics and one semi-auto. But I took and passed the manual test
and drive manual cars on a regular basis.

How many accidejnts have you had with your manual?

I don't have a manual, see above. But the answer is "none".

I have driven for 30 years with no troubles at all. I drive 100 miles a
day, and on rural roads, so not exactly without experience of difficult
roads. However, you are right, I am limited. I have a slight dyspraxia
which limits my ability to co ordinate my left foot for the clutch. Thats
the issue. Not a " disability" officially, so not motorbility challenged,
just safer in an automatic.

Probably safer than you my friend.

I generally find that people who prattle on that they are "safe" are
anything but, generally they are (a) slow and (b) lucky and usually (c)
don't drive very far. You may be the sole exception, but on usenet you
can make all the claims you want about how good a driver you are and
they don't amount to a hll of beans.

You seem to have a real chip on your shoulder BTW, is this why you
declare that car salesmen are "sniffy"?

upping comment by said poster who asked who had suggested driving a manual
makes you a more capable;e poster ( and now denies he said it!)
"Steve Firth" wrote in message
...
sweetheart hotmail.com wrote:


This is precisely what I mean about sniffy. The idea that because I drive
an
automatic I haven't enough experience or I am inferior in some way.

Grow a thicker skin.

By definition someone who cannot pass a test to drive a manual car is
not as capable as someone who can. As to automatics, I have three cars,
two automatics and one semi-auto. But I took and passed the manual test
and drive manual cars on a regular basis.

I have a friend who has a Jeep which is automatic and I didn't see a
mass
of levers in his car thanks.

Then I suggest you didn't look properly. There is a *huge* second gear
lever to the left of the automatic gear selector.

On 28/11/2010 10:27, Steve Firth wrote:

Your post gives the impression that you think that a 4x4 will work some
magic and allow you to drive through conditions that will defeat other
cars or that a 4x4 will somehow be "safer" in these conditions. Neither
statement is necessarily true and in last year's snow I passed many
stranded 4x4s. If you're going to get the best out of a 4x4 you need to
get some training in addition to having a driving licence, particularly
if you have never driven a 4x4 before. Also an automatic 4x4 is markedly
inferior in coping with poor road conditions than a manual car.

Have you given a thought to the fact that many automatic 4x4 vehicles
actually have multiple gear levers? For example I have two 4x4s at
present, a Jeep and a Ford. The Jeep makes use of a second gear lever to
change between 4x4 High ratio and 4x4 Low ratio. The Ford has a selector
switch for rear wheel drive only, 4x4 high, 4x4 low. Other 4x4s also
have other controls such as differential locks. If you're not confident
or able to drive a manual, is a 4x4 with its plethora of controls going
to be right for you? Only you can answer these questions and I'd
recommend that before you spend cash on a 4x4 you actually get
experience of driving one.

As to which one, again you have to decide. Do you want an off-road 4x4
(Land Rover/Jeep in appearance) or would you be happy with a 4x4 saloon
car?

For someone who has no experience of using a 4x4 I'd recommend a Subaru
Forester. These are essentially car-like, available with automatic
gearboxes and are well built. You could also consider a Subaru Impreza,
which is even more car like. The Forester is more "utility vehicle" and
was designed around the needs of people who have horses or small farms
and who need a tough vehicle with 4x4. Good low mileage Foresters and
Imprezas start around £5k.

The other thing you need to think about is tyres. The tyres fitted to
all cars and 4x4s in the UK are inadequate for winter use in snow. If
you're going to be driving in snow you need to change the tyres on the
vehicle to ones suitable for snow. These may be referred to as "Mud and
Snow" or "Winter" although you can also use "All Terrain (AT)" tyres.

Winter tyres for a Forester will cost you about £100-130 each.


You'd also be well advised to pack a snow shovel, water,
blankets/sleeping bags, HiVis vests or an insulated workman's
fluorescent jacket, a torch and batteries and possibly some source of
food that will last in the car. As mentioned earlier, I passed many 4x4s
stranded in the snow last year and I heard that many drivers were in
their cars for one to two days.

Can I endorse what Steve has said and add just a bit from my own experience.

I ran a Land Rover for a few years around 1970 and 4x4s (Range Rover,
Sierra Estate, Audi Quatro) for about 25 years from 1980ish to 2005. The
Range Rover was the only one of the later three that really coped well
in snow and even that, with the sort of tyres I had on it, wasn't as
much cop as the ancient Land Rover which had been my first experience of
4x4. The Sierra was a delight to drive on greasy roads but not so much
in snow. The Audi was a bit of a disappointment even on greasy roads
with a tendency to travel in a straight line where better cars would
turn in easily.

All 4x4s will give better traction than 2x4s but when you want to brake
2x4s have just as good brakes as 4x4s. ABS can be a pain in the snow if
you want to stop going down a steep hill. With locked wheels you will
lose the ability to steer but it is the build-up of snow in front of the
wheels that slows you down, not the constant rotation that you get with ABS.

I was talking to a farming acquaintance this morning and he said that he
hadn't needed to engage 4 wheel drive to get off his farm today. Some
part time 4x4s have what I consider a significant shortcoming - no
differential between front and rear drives which leads to the
straight-on syndrome on bends. It used to be said when I was a youth
that the most common place to see a Land Rover on a snowy road was
ditched on a bend.

Ground clearance and particularly tyres make a world of difference in
snow (or indeed in mud). I can remember one particular incident which
illustrates the later. One particularly cold and snowy day I backed my
Sierra out of the garage into perhaps 4" of new snow, no problem at all.
Went to lock up and when I tried to drive off the car would no move. In
the meantime the snow had turned to ice under the weight of the car and
the wheels just spun uselessly even though the ground at that point was
very near flat.

Roger Chapman wrote:


I was talking to a farming acquaintance this morning and he said that he
hadn't needed to engage 4 wheel drive to get off his farm today.

When I had a Series Land Rover I very rarely needed 4x4. The big
difference comes from the tyres and the Avons I used to have on it were
able to plough through thick mud and snow. In fact when I sold it the
new owner went on an off-road course and completed all of the tasks bar
one. Then they were told that the front free-wheel hubs were broken and
they had completed the entire course in 2WD.

On 28/11/2010 11:09, Roger Chapman wrote:
On 28/11/2010 10:27, Steve Firth wrote:

All 4x4s will give better traction than 2x4s but when you want to brake
2x4s have just as good brakes as 4x4s. ABS can be a pain in the snow if
you want to stop going down a steep hill. With locked wheels you will
lose the ability to steer but it is the build-up of snow in front of the
wheels that slows you down, not the constant rotation that you get with
ABS.


Ah! I wondered why I was vaguely leery about my ABS in snow.

Another Dave

On Nov 28, 10:27*am, (Steve Firth) wrote:
sweetheart hotmail.com wrote:
*( No , this is not my inheritance money but I do need a 4x4
to keep travelling 400 miles a month this winter to sort out the house I
have inherited. OH van is 2004 and could do with changing too so a 4x4 could
be a better option).

Firstly, uk.d-i-y is not the usual place to ask this sort of question.
The idea of Usenet is that there are a number of newsgroups and the
title gives some clue to the sort of post that is on topic. You may get
better answers or a better range of answers from uk.rec.cars.misc or
uk.rec.driving, although having said that many people post there and
here.

You also haven't given a budget or a preference for fuel type which
makes recommending a particular vehicle somewhat difficult.

Your post gives the impression that you think that a 4x4 will work some
magic and allow you to drive through conditions that will defeat other
cars or that a 4x4 will somehow be "safer" in these conditions. Neither
statement is necessarily true and in last year's snow I passed many
stranded 4x4s. If you're going to get the best out of a 4x4 you need to
get some training in addition to having a driving licence, particularly
if you have never driven a 4x4 before. Also an automatic 4x4 is markedly
inferior in coping with poor road conditions than a manual car.

Have you given a thought to the fact that many automatic 4x4 vehicles
actually have multiple gear levers? For example I have two 4x4s at
present, a Jeep and a Ford. The Jeep makes use of a second gear lever to
change between 4x4 High ratio and 4x4 Low ratio. The Ford has a selector
switch for rear wheel drive only, 4x4 high, 4x4 low. Other 4x4s also
have other controls such as differential locks. If you're not confident
or able to drive a manual, is a 4x4 with its plethora of controls going
to be right for you? Only you can answer these questions and I'd
recommend that before you spend cash on a 4x4 you actually get
experience of driving one.

As to which one, again you have to decide. Do you want an off-road 4x4
(Land Rover/Jeep in appearance) or would you be happy with a 4x4 saloon
car?

For someone who has no experience of using a 4x4 I'd recommend a Subaru
Forester. These are essentially car-like, available with automatic
gearboxes and are well built. You could also consider a Subaru Impreza,
which is even more car like. The Forester is more "utility vehicle" and
was designed around the needs of people who have horses or small farms
and who need a tough vehicle with 4x4. Good low mileage Foresters and
Imprezas start around 5k.

The other thing you need to think about is tyres. The tyres fitted to
all cars and 4x4s in the UK are inadequate for winter use in snow. If
you're going to be driving in snow you need to change the tyres on the
vehicle to ones suitable for snow. These may be referred to as "Mud and
Snow" or "Winter" although you can also use "All Terrain (AT)" tyres.

Winter tyres for a Forester will cost you about 100-130 each.

You'd also be well advised to pack a snow shovel, water,
blankets/sleeping bags, HiVis vests or an insulated workman's
fluorescent jacket, a torch and batteries and possibly some source of
food that will last in the car. As mentioned earlier, I passed many 4x4s
stranded in the snow last year and I heard that many drivers were in
their cars for one to two days.

A Suzuki Jimny IMO isn't right for what you want, it's a car that be
rolled fairly easily hence not a good first 4x4, and it would crucify
anyone driving several hundred miles a week. If you insist on one of
those then there is an automatic version. Check Autotrader to see if one
is in a garage near you. Note that you have this week a choice of 10
auto Jimnys in the UK and 76 auto Foresters, so the Jimny auto is a rare
(difficult to find) vehicle.

In spite of Steve's way of presenting the options - his advice on the
Subaru Forester is good - a vehicle worth checking out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subaru_Forester

Don't be fooled by its car-like looks - there's a very sophisticated
and respected 4wd system under the skin.

I used to have an Isuzu Trooper (probably exactly the vehicle you
don't want) - I used 4wd most often to get out of mud in my own
driveway/farm-track to our house, and in the same location appreciated/
needed the ground-clearance every day.

Here's the thing though - I bought it from the local Subaru/Isuzu
dealer - and when I brought it in for a service, was usually loaned a
subaru. I was very impressed with all of them (Forester/Impreza/
Legacy).

I was also very impressed with the dealership (Thurlow Nunn Standen).
Some of the Subaru dealerships, particularly the rural ones, are
family-business agricultural equipment/vehicle suppliers that
diversified - with a level of integrity lacking in many other salesman-
run businesses.

In article ,
Huge wrote:
For someone who has no experience of using a 4x4 I'd recommend a Subaru
Forester.

I'd concur. On of my friends has one (his second or third) and he thinks
it's the bee's knees.

My niece has a Subaru, and the spares prices are horrendous. It's no
paragon of reliability either - unlike the reputation of Jap cars.

--
*Do infants enjoy infancy as much as adults enjoy adultery?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Sun, 28 Nov 2010 09:34:21 -0000, sweetheart wrote:

Now, I want to get a 4x4 car.

There is a little Fiat Sedici 4x4 but don't know if it has an auto
option. Auto boxes waste quite a bit of energy so tend not to be
found on smaller engined
cars.

http://www.whatcar.com/car-reviews/f.../summary/25541
-3





--
Cheers
Dave.

In article o.uk,
Dave Liquorice wrote:
There is a little Fiat Sedici 4x4 but don't know if it has an auto
option. Auto boxes waste quite a bit of energy so tend not to be
found on smaller engined
cars.

Depends on the auto. The 'DSG' type is an automated synchromesh type with
a servo plate clutch (or two) so not that far off as efficient as a normal
manual. But the cost as a percentage of a small new car price might be too
much.

--
*Do infants enjoy infancy as much as adults enjoy adultery?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article o.uk,
Dave Liquorice wrote:
There is a little Fiat Sedici 4x4 but don't know if it has an auto
option. Auto boxes waste quite a bit of energy so tend not to be
found on smaller engined
cars.

Depends on the auto. The 'DSG' type is an automated synchromesh type with
a servo plate clutch (or two) so not that far off as efficient as a normal
manual. But the cost as a percentage of a small new car price might be too
much.

Are there many (any) 4x4s with DSG?

On 28/11/2010 12:02, Steve Firth wrote:

Are there many (any) 4x4s with DSG?

Depends what you call 4x4. A fair chunk of the Audi range IIRC. Not
off-road style though!

Andy

In article ,
Steve Firth wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article o.uk,
Dave Liquorice wrote:
There is a little Fiat Sedici 4x4 but don't know if it has an auto
option. Auto boxes waste quite a bit of energy so tend not to be
found on smaller engined
cars.

Depends on the auto. The 'DSG' type is an automated synchromesh type
with a servo plate clutch (or two) so not that far off as efficient as
a normal manual. But the cost as a percentage of a small new car price
might be too much.

Are there many (any) 4x4s with DSG?

Don't know. I personally don't like 'DSG' type transmissions. One of their
worst features is trying to creep with them - the very thing a TC auto
does so well. So I'd guess using one off road might prove too much of a
strain on the clutch(s). But I'm only guessing.

--
*I feel like I'm diagonally parked in a parallel universe*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 28 Nov,
(Steve Firth) wrote:


Are there many (any) 4x4s with DSG?

My neighbour has a 4WD Skoda Octavia with DSG.

--
B Thumbs
Change lycos to yahoo to reply

sweetheart wrote:
Please do not get sniffy. I drive an automatic car. I do not have a
manual licence ( OH does b ut I cant be reliant on him!) . I am not a
confident driver although I am SAFE, that was why I got an automatic in
the first place. I travel 100 miles a day to work and back without
incident, so there.

Now, I want to get a 4x4 car. I don't mind if it is second hand ( I will
go to a dealer) or new.
I have a automatic Clio currently and my PH has a little used ( about
500 miles in three years!) Scudo van. I was thinking to change the
Scudo for a 4x4 - possibly keeping my 2 year old Clio ( although I might
have to change his van for an older 4x4 and even a manual depending on
what I can get).

Thats the scenario. Now, what sort of 4x4 is good - OK? I don't need a
big one or that fancy, just reliable. I had been looking at a Suzuki
Jimny. The problem is I have been to several dealers fora NEW ( brand
new) car and found them very sniffy when I mentioned wanting an
automatic. I have looked on the web sites of many manufacturers but they
don't state which vehicles they will do as an automatic option.

I have found this before , so its not new to me but is a problem and I
am tired and don't have time to sort through it and take the flack. My
old Renault dealership when were helpful has been taken over by a big
firm who are sniffy about anyone who mentions automatics! I could do
with some advice. I don't need to be patronized please, I have had that
from men in the motor trade. ( No , this is not my inheritance money but
I do need a 4x4 to keep travelling 400 miles a month this winter to sort
out the house I have inherited. OH van is 2004 and could do with
changing too so a 4x4 could be a better option).

Thanks for any help in selecting a suitable vehicle. Smallish, economic
and reliable are the criteria - not big and blousy and "boys toy". I
don't care about eco friendly. I need a car to get from A - B and is
useable in all weathers.

we found the older Freelander - top of the range automatic with the BMW
2 liter turbodiesel - to be the exact right compromise - its a serious
off roader especially if you get the tyres for that and a comfortable
and refined 'up to 90 on a motorway' saloon as well. consumption is not
great though. 33mpg typically on the auto.

WE use cars only when we have to these days.

On 28/11/2010 in message
sweetheart wrote:

Thats the scenario. Now, what sort of 4x4 is good - OK? I don't need a
big one or that fancy, just reliable. I had been looking at a Suzuki
Jimny. The problem is I have been to several dealers fora NEW ( brand new)
car and found them very sniffy when I mentioned wanting an automatic. I
have looked on the web sites of many manufacturers but they don't state
which vehicles they will do as an automatic option.

Dealers are sniffy because you are a woman, they live in the last century.

Have a look at reviews on Australian web-sites, they don't pull their
punches and a 4 x 4 that's tough enough for the Outback will certainly be
tough enough here.

Suzuki Grand Vitaras are one of the few off-road cars that actually work
off road so probably a good choice. The Jiminy and 3 door Grand Vitara
jolt and bump and are very uncomfortable. I traded my 3 door Grand Vitara
in for a 5 door 3months ago and it is a much more comfortable drive
although it does tend to track a bit on poor road surfaces.

Having an automatic box removes many of the benefits of 4 WD, what about
taking your manual test?

X-Posted to uk.rec.driving.

--
Jeff Gaines Wiltshire UK
There is absolutely no substitute for a genuine lack of preparation

"Jeff Gaines" wrote in message
...
On 28/11/2010 in message
sweetheart wrote:

Having an automatic box removes many of the benefits of 4 WD, what about
taking your manual test?

That is not an option. I have a co ordination problem with my left foot and
hand ( dyspraxia). I can work had eye and anything else but I cannot do
foot eye and hand. Hence the automatic. Take away the clutch and I am fine.

I can drive paddle drives very well.

In article , sweetheart
hotmail.com wrote:
Having an automatic box removes many of the benefits of 4 WD, what
about taking your manual test?

That is not an option. I have a co ordination problem with my left foot
and hand ( dyspraxia). I can work had eye and anything else but I
cannot do foot eye and hand. Hence the automatic. Take away the clutch
and I am fine.

Ignore the luddites who go on and on about manuals. Most haven't driven a
modern decent auto.

I can drive paddle drives very well.

My BMW has the Steptronic option. This allows you to select any gear by
moving the lever back or forward - a bit like a motorbike box, but hand
controlled. It works very well if you like that sort of thing - but in
practice never gets used. The auto does what it says on the tin.

Some early synchromesh autos with paddle shifts didn't work well at all as
autos. The latest ones are much better - but still not as smooth as a
conventional auto with torque convertor.

The main problem is a decent auto costs. And are just made for larger
cars. Smaller ones tend to get a stripped out/down sized version or some
abortion like those belt driven types that have now thankfully near
disappeared.

--
*Certain frogs can be frozen solid, then thawed, and survive *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article , sweetheart
hotmail.com wrote:
Having an automatic box removes many of the benefits of 4 WD, what
about taking your manual test?

That is not an option. I have a co ordination problem with my left foot
and hand ( dyspraxia). I can work had eye and anything else but I
cannot do foot eye and hand. Hence the automatic. Take away the clutch
and I am fine.

Ignore the luddites who go on and on about manuals. Most haven't driven a
modern decent auto.

I can drive paddle drives very well.

My BMW has the Steptronic option. This allows you to select any gear by
moving the lever back or forward - a bit like a motorbike box, but hand
controlled. It works very well if you like that sort of thing - but in
practice never gets used. The auto does what it says on the tin.

I prefer proper automatics for this reason ( the Clio is a " proper"
automatic - has paddles but I never use them) . The Toyota on the other
hand is rubbish. My mother has one and I wouldnt give you tuppence for the
auto in that. In fact she has had it six months * brand new) and is changing
it because the auto is cr*p. Like a manual.

Some early synchromesh autos with paddle shifts didn't work well at all as
autos. The latest ones are much better - but still not as smooth as a
conventional auto with torque convertor.

Precisely.

The main problem is a decent auto costs. And are just made for larger
cars.

My Clio is a 1600 and works fine. The 1400 from a few years back worked
wonderfully.
Now if you ask me about a Polo - VW automatics are not as good as Renaults.
I know about automatics and how they drive. ;-) The Mazda 323 was good.
But more recent ones do not match up. I am into my third new Clio. Its
better than the bigger Magane - less squshy.

But some would rather claim they are better drivers . I just would like my
OH to have a 4x4 for those occassiuons we may need it. Since he has now
retired offocially we do not need a big van.

On 28/11/2010 11:59, sweetheart wrote:
Now if you ask me about a Polo - VW automatics are not as good as
Renaults. I know about automatics and how they drive.

Aren't Renault automatics notorious for being the most unreliable
gearboxes on the planet?

To add, Kia do/did a very good 4x4 (good in that it is actually
capable of doing offroad, many are not).

Check crash data on the older 4x4, the suzuki stuff is not very good
and I have seen three "front-rear skip" on emergency stops. By skip I
mean the shock absorber dampening is inadequate, which combined with
certain tyre combinations resulted in the tyres skipping on emergency
stops thus greatly increasing stopping distance. Like a cartoon trying
to stop, the weight transfer to the front springs on braking caused a
rebound-skip-contact-rebound-skip motion. Sounds funny until you see
it hit the pedestrians who ran out across the pedestrian crossing, the
old escort alongside going faster stopped short. Similar experienced
by a colleague in Spain with a hire car, perhaps the shocks were worn
- but I have seen three suzuki 4x4 do it myself in the past 10yrs,
only one was an "old" red suzuki, the others were very new white
Vitara.

For just trips thro snow, snow tyres win.
Modern tyre compound freezes, tyres tend to be relatively low profile
& high performance summer rating, shock absorbers have relatively high
stiction causing weight transfer off FWD very easily indeed.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:


Ignore the luddites who go on and on about manuals. Most haven't driven a
modern decent auto.

I think you're missing the point Dave. The question is about a 4x4 to be
used in poor driving conditions. An auto 4x4 is much less capable than a
manual 4x4 in these conditions. An auto 4x4 will run away on hills, even
in low ratio, and is much harder to control on slippery surfaces than a
manual. In a manual 4x4 I can descend slippery hills in low ratio with
feet off the pedals. In an auto 4x4 constant use of the brake is
required and this is not a good thing since it can lead to loss of
control, especially if ABS cuts in.

That said, either of my auto 4x4s is capable of being driven safely in
snow. It just feels like harder work than driving a manual in the same
conditions.

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
.. .
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:


Ignore the luddites who go on and on about manuals. Most haven't driven a
modern decent auto.

I think you're missing the point Dave. The question is about a 4x4 to be
used in poor driving conditions. An auto 4x4 is much less capable than a
manual 4x4 in these conditions. An auto 4x4 will run away on hills, even
in low ratio, and is much harder to control on slippery surfaces than a
manual. In a manual 4x4 I can descend slippery hills in low ratio with
feet off the pedals. In an auto 4x4 constant use of the brake is
required and this is not a good thing since it can lead to loss of
control, especially if ABS cuts in.

That said, either of my auto 4x4s is capable of being driven safely in
snow. It just feels like harder work than driving a manual in the same
conditions.

So why do so many people have them? I considered this as a second car to
replace my husbands van. An automatic would open up an option for me to
drive it. My OH can drive a manual ( and even he admits I am a " better"
driver than he is).

I dont necessarily want it for off road or bad weather . I would prefer to
avoid both but the fact remains that most 4x4's got out of the village last
year when I couldnt. I simply want broader options than I have now.

On 28/11/2010 12:02, Steve Firth wrote:
Dave Plowman wrote:


Ignore the luddites who go on and on about manuals. Most haven't driven a
modern decent auto.

I think you're missing the point Dave. The question is about a 4x4 to be
used in poor driving conditions. An auto 4x4 is much less capable than a
manual 4x4 in these conditions. An auto 4x4 will run away on hills, even
in low ratio, and is much harder to control on slippery surfaces than a
manual. In a manual 4x4 I can descend slippery hills in low ratio with
feet off the pedals. In an auto 4x4 constant use of the brake is
required and this is not a good thing since it can lead to loss of
control, especially if ABS cuts in.

We used to have a Mk1 Discovery V8 Auto, and I never had any problems
with it running away downhill, select low range and 1st and it would
just trickle along nicely, the V8 producing plenty of engine braking.

Modern 4x4 have electronic hill decent controls which gently apply the
brakes, using the abs sensors to provide feedback. They work very well,
not sure how reliable they are longterm though.

In article ,
Steve Firth wrote:
Ignore the luddites who go on and on about manuals. Most haven't
driven a modern decent auto.

I think you're missing the point Dave. The question is about a 4x4 to be
used in poor driving conditions. An auto 4x4 is much less capable than a
manual 4x4 in these conditions. An auto 4x4 will run away on hills, even
in low ratio, and is much harder to control on slippery surfaces than a
manual. In a manual 4x4 I can descend slippery hills in low ratio with
feet off the pedals. In an auto 4x4 constant use of the brake is
required and this is not a good thing since it can lead to loss of
control, especially if ABS cuts in.

My feeling is this is only because no maker has spent the money developing
an auto specifically for good off road performance. They're usually just
bought by the Chelsea tractor brigade. But there's no reason why you
couldn't engineer the TC locking clutch to work in the low gears. And have
a 1st gear as low as the manual.

--
*I'm pretty sure that sex is better than logic, but I can't prove it.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 29/11/2010 12:07 a.m., Jeff Gaines wrote:
On 28/11/2010 in message sweetheart
wrote:

Thats the scenario. Now, what sort of 4x4 is good - OK? I don't need a big one
or that fancy, just reliable. I had been looking at a Suzuki Jimny. The
problem is I have been to several dealers fora NEW ( brand new) car and found
them very sniffy when I mentioned wanting an automatic. I have looked on the
web sites of many manufacturers but they don't state which vehicles they will
do as an automatic option.

Dealers are sniffy because you are a woman, they live in the last century.

Have a look at reviews on Australian web-sites, they don't pull their punches
and a 4 x 4 that's tough enough for the Outback will certainly be tough enough
here.

Esp. with all that snow they get in the Nullabor ...

On 28/11/2010 23:03, Gib Bogle wrote:

Esp. with all that snow they get in the Nullabor ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Kosciuszko

Andy

Huge wrote:

On 2010-11-28, Jeff Gaines wrote:

Having an automatic box removes many of the benefits of 4 WD,

Care to elaborate?

Hill descent, I would imagine. To do that in an automatic requires one
of those over-complicated braking computer things. A manual Landie can
do it safely in Low ratio 2nd gear feet off pedals.

I had to descend an extremely steep muddy slope in the Ford a year or
two ago, scared the crap out of me. Left to its own devices in low ratio
with the autobox set to 1, it ran away, touch the brakes and it skidded
and the ABS cut in making things worse.