In article ,
YAPH wrote:
I know it's old news and way too late for any of us to do anything
about it but when you look at the reliability of modern boilers, the
repair costs, the useful total life and compare to old traditional
types like my Potterton which ran for over 20 years with only a new
thermocouple every now and then you wonder how things have improved.

That's like saying why can't modern cars be as reliable as the old Moggie
1000s and so on that are still pottering on.

Minors weren't particularly reliable. More likely they appealed to those
who looked after cars and kept them a long time.

Nowadays we only see the /reliable/ older cars: where are the Marinas,
1100/1300/1800s, Scavengers, name-just-about-any-Ford-rustbuckets, etc?

Plenty still around - but not necessarily in daily use.

I'm sure there are models of boiler from 20 years ago which were so crap
they're practically extinct by now.

Many get scrapped before their time because people like BG lie about
spares availability, or say it *might* not last much longer. I changed my
Potterton because it was a good time to do so - major works going on in
the room it is housed in - not because it was in any way faulty. At near
30 years old. Of course the huge rise in gas prices tipped the balance.

--
*Always remember you're unique, just like everyone else.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In message , YAPH
writes
On Wed, 21 Jan 2009 23:17:11 +0000, geoff wrote:

In message , A.Lee
writes

The stock answer was/is Worcester/Bosch. Then someone (Geoff?) reported
a lot of circuit board failures as they reached ~5 years old.

Yeah, pcbs AND fans

the 24i and 28i are in the premier division for both

I take it you mean the old standard efficiency models? Are the PCB faults
generally that pin on the fan relay breaking away from the track?

relay hammer ...

Have you actually looked at the state of the relay contacts ?


I'm
getting quite glad I carry a soldering iron on the van, between those and
Profile PCBs :-)


--
geoff

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Dave Baker wrote:
Why do PCBs fail so often? They are reliable enough in other appliances.
If they are getting too hot is it beyond the wit of the designers to
site and insulate them better?

Basically ****e design, components and build. Looks to me that those
makers operate the principle of saving a penny on each unit adds up to a
fortune overall. Of course PCBs can have a very long life.

Customers with burnt fingers have even longer memories. They may save a penny
today, but they lose out big time later.

-- JJ

"Mark" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 21 Jan 2009 23:10:24 -0000, Colin Wilson
o.uk wrote:

Funnily enough, the PCB on our Worcester Bosch has had to be replaced
either two or three times now, along with pretty much everything else
electrical in it (fan, transformer and so on)

The PCB on the WB is also a POS that is designed to break if the fan
goes - no damage limitation devices such as (gasp) a fuse.

The PCB on my WB boiler did not fail when the fan died.


It could be that the first guess for a repair is the PCB, then when this is
replaced and is found to have not cured the problem, the real culprit is
detected and replaced, i.e. the fan. The original PCB should have been
refitted after the new replacement had made no difference, and before
fitting a new 'fan', but it is easier, and more profitable, to say that the
fan has damaged the PCB, so the new PCB is left in situ and charged for,
along with the fan. I accept that a faulty component 'can' damage a PCB, and
that PCB's do fail on their own, but there seems to be a lot of PCB's being
replaced, a lot more than should be expected.

On Thu, 22 Jan 2009 11:20:29 +0000, (A.Lee) wrote:

Stuart Noble wrote:

Moral of this is, boiler insurance is probably a good deal these days
(cost of parts is the killer), but make sure it covers "scale damage".
Too many wriggle-out options otherwise.

I would dispute that. Yes, it is good if a £300 PCB goes, but for many
people, it is just money wasted.

FWIW Worcester Bosch do a fix-priced repair that covers everything
exept the Heat Exchanger IIRC. This could be good value if the PCB or
other expensive component fails.

I used this when the fan died on mine.

--
(\__/) M.
(='.'=) Owing to the amount of spam posted via googlegroups and
(")_(") their inaction to the problem. I am blocking most articles
posted from there. If you wish your postings to be seen by
everyone you will need use a different method of posting.
See http://improve-usenet.org

Harry Stottle wrote:
.... snipped
It could be that the first guess for a repair is the PCB, then when this is
replaced and is found to have not cured the problem, the real culprit is
detected and replaced, i.e. the fan.

.... snipped

When BG came to fix my Glowworm (according to Wife) they had a device
that could interrogate the PCB so I assume there's a standard interface
that allows them to read fault history and parameters before replacing.

Dave

On Fri, 23 Jan 2009 10:05:37 -0000, "Harry Stottle"
wrote:


"Mark" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 21 Jan 2009 23:10:24 -0000, Colin Wilson
o.uk wrote:

Funnily enough, the PCB on our Worcester Bosch has had to be replaced
either two or three times now, along with pretty much everything else
electrical in it (fan, transformer and so on)

The PCB on the WB is also a POS that is designed to break if the fan
goes - no damage limitation devices such as (gasp) a fuse.

The PCB on my WB boiler did not fail when the fan died.


It could be that the first guess for a repair is the PCB, then when this is
replaced and is found to have not cured the problem, the real culprit is
detected and replaced, i.e. the fan. The original PCB should have been
refitted after the new replacement had made no difference, and before
fitting a new 'fan', but it is easier, and more profitable, to say that the
fan has damaged the PCB, so the new PCB is left in situ and charged for,
along with the fan. I accept that a faulty component 'can' damage a PCB, and
that PCB's do fail on their own, but there seems to be a lot of PCB's being
replaced, a lot more than should be expected.

I'm sure you're right - it's more down to profit. In my case it was a
fixed price job so there was no benefit for WB to replace the PCB if
it was not faulty.

When my fridge/freezer went wrong a repairer said that the PCB always
blows when the defroster goes. He would not even try to replace just
the defrost unit. In the end it turned out that replacement parts
were no longer available, so the fridge went to landfill (Only 6 years
old too!). Don't buy a Samsung!
--
(\__/) M.
(='.'=) Owing to the amount of spam posted via googlegroups and
(")_(") their inaction to the problem. I am blocking most articles
posted from there. If you wish your postings to be seen by
everyone you will need use a different method of posting.
See http://improve-usenet.org

Mark wrote:
On Thu, 22 Jan 2009 11:20:29 +0000, (A.Lee) wrote:

Stuart Noble wrote:

Moral of this is, boiler insurance is probably a good deal these days
(cost of parts is the killer), but make sure it covers "scale damage".
Too many wriggle-out options otherwise.
I would dispute that. Yes, it is good if a £300 PCB goes, but for many
people, it is just money wasted.

FWIW Worcester Bosch do a fix-priced repair that covers everything
exept the Heat Exchanger IIRC. This could be good value if the PCB or
other expensive component fails.

I used this when the fan died on mine.


It's not bad value when you consider the job is done in an hour,
whatever the fault, and in my case a couple of extra parts were replaced
as a precaution. As the boiler's now 5 years old I decided to go for an
annual insurance which, given the price of parts, seemed like a good deal.
I don't trust manufacturers of cars, boilers, and printers when it comes
to built-in obsolescence. I'm sure they don't program the chips to fail,
but it certainly seems that way sometimes.

In article ,
Stuart Noble wrote:
It's not bad value when you consider the job is done in an hour,
whatever the fault, and in my case a couple of extra parts were replaced
as a precaution. As the boiler's now 5 years old I decided to go for an
annual insurance which, given the price of parts, seemed like a good
deal. I don't trust manufacturers of cars, boilers, and printers when it
comes to built-in obsolescence. I'm sure they don't program the chips
to fail, but it certainly seems that way sometimes.

It's pretty rare for 'chips' to fail - unless another fault causes then to
be abused. Most likely 'PCB' failures are poor soldering, connector
troubles and maybe capacitor failure. Pretty well all of these caused by
penny pinching in design/manufacture. Think Geoff also mentioned relay
failure. These do have a known life - and most with some sense would use
plug in types for easy servicing if not willing to specify high quality
ones.

--
*The most common name in the world is Mohammed *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Baker" wrote in message
...
Lobster wrote:
Vass wrote:

Whats the boiler of choice at the moment?

Suggest you try:
http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html

...then come back with queries

David

I think most people, myself included, would just like a definitive
recommendation to a make or model rather than a general treatise on the
ins and outs. The most important thing I suspect is which makes are most
reliable. I still have no idea.

exactly, thanks Dave
--
Vass

Vass coughed up some electrons that declared:


"Dave Baker" wrote in message
...
Lobster wrote:
Vass wrote:

Whats the boiler of choice at the moment?

Suggest you try:
http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html

...then come back with queries

David

I think most people, myself included, would just like a definitive
recommendation to a make or model rather than a general treatise on the
ins and outs. The most important thing I suspect is which makes are most
reliable. I still have no idea.

exactly, thanks Dave

Could you tell us more then, as per my first message - some of these things
depend on what your goals are.

Cheers

Tim

On Thu, 22 Jan 2009 23:28:57 +0000, geoff wrote:

relay hammer ...

Que?

Have you actually looked at the state of the relay contacts ?

Nope I just found that soldering up the cracked track has got them
working again. If that's not the fault I can't fix it ... but I know a man
who can :-)


--
John Stumbles -- http://yaph.co.uk

This message has been rot13 encrypted twice for added security

On Fri, 23 Jan 2009 10:19:29 +0000, Mark wrote:

FWIW Worcester Bosch do a fix-priced repair that covers everything

- the fixed price currently being about £200, but if you're in a London
pstcode it's almost £300.



--
John Stumbles -- http://yaph.co.uk

I used to think the brain was the most interesting part of the body
- until I realised what was telling me that

On Thu, 22 Jan 2009 20:41:32 +0000, geoff wrote:

I think that if you asked anyone who has an Ideal Icos, they might
strongly disagree with you

In the course of my work I come across relatively few condensing boilers
and, of those, fewer Ideal Icos/Isar/Istors, but of the handful I have
encountered all but, I think one, has had a PCB replaced. (That's
ones I come across 'incidentally' - doing some non-boiler-related job.
I've also replaced a couple of Ideal PCBs, and one fan.)

Talking to one of my landlord friends today I mentioned this and he just
smiled and said he knows what to do. No, not chuck it out, get it on a BG
service/breakdown contract :-)


--
John Stumbles -- http://yaph.co.uk

What is a simile like?

On 22 Jan, 23:02, "Doctor Drivel" wrote:
"David" wrote in message

...

On 21 Jan, 15:58, "Vass" wrote:
New rads and pipes installed last year to an ageing Wicks boiler
Would like to put in a new one either in same position or garage
(directly
below)
Whats the boiler of choice at the moment?
1960's Semi, 3 bed.
TIA
--
Vass

Hi,

We had a Vaillant ecoTEC+ 937 fitted in October, it's been brilliant
far, it's very quiet and the hot water performance is excellent.

Very expensive for what it is, massive on the wall and poor flowrated one
the 15 litre is empty.

Take your medication and go to sleep.

In message , Harry Stottle
writes

"Mark" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 21 Jan 2009 23:10:24 -0000, Colin Wilson
o.uk wrote:

Funnily enough, the PCB on our Worcester Bosch has had to be replaced
either two or three times now, along with pretty much everything else
electrical in it (fan, transformer and so on)

The PCB on the WB is also a POS that is designed to break if the fan
goes - no damage limitation devices such as (gasp) a fuse.

The PCB on my WB boiler did not fail when the fan died.


It could be that the first guess for a repair is the PCB, then when this is
replaced and is found to have not cured the problem, the real culprit is
detected and replaced, i.e. the fan. The original PCB should have been
refitted after the new replacement had made no difference, and before
fitting a new 'fan', but it is easier, and more profitable, to say that the
fan has damaged the PCB, so the new PCB is left in situ and charged for,
along with the fan. I accept that a faulty component 'can' damage a
PCB, and that PCB's do fail on their own, but there seems to be a lot
of PCB's being replaced, a lot more than should be expected.


As I said, fans on WBs are relay driven, and, with the exception of a
dead short on the windings blowing a track (I've never seen it happen
and few have seen more than I have)

The point that you seem to not quite have grasped is that the PCB is the
most complicated and mystifying part of the boiler to a fitter, and once
they have replaced that, they are back on relatively safe ground

So they replace the PCB - just in case it's where the fault lies and
then they invent some bull**** like "Oh and the fan is faulty as well -
it blew the pcb" ... utter rubbish

--
geoff

In message , NoSpam
writes
Harry Stottle wrote:
... snipped
It could be that the first guess for a repair is the PCB, then when this is
replaced and is found to have not cured the problem, the real culprit is
detected and replaced, i.e. the fan.

... snipped

When BG came to fix my Glowworm (according to Wife) they had a device
that could interrogate the PCB so I assume there's a standard interface
that allows them to read fault history and parameters before replacing.

Fine when it works

an example ...

The other day, we were testing some Ideal Icos modules and we started
getting an "HE" fault - which points to a module fault. Actually, it was
a broken earth wire to the flame box

So ... take PCB diagnostics with a pinch of salt


--
geoff

"David" wrote in message
...
On 22 Jan, 23:02, "Doctor Drivel" wrote:
"David" wrote in message

...

On 21 Jan, 15:58, "Vass" wrote:
New rads and pipes installed last year to an ageing Wicks boiler
Would like to put in a new one either in same position or garage
(directly
below)
Whats the boiler of choice at the moment?
1960's Semi, 3 bed.
TIA
--
Vass

Hi,

We had a Vaillant ecoTEC+ 937 fitted in October, it's been brilliant
far, it's very quiet and the hot water performance is excellent.

Very expensive for what it is, massive on the wall and poor flowrated one
the 15 litre is empty.

Take your medication and go to sleep.

You are an idiot!

Doctor Drivel wrote:

The Glow Worm Majorca with the McLaren gas valve for one. Most
Vulcans. Most cast iron sectioned boilers that ended up leaking at the
seals. The Chaffataux boiler with no electrics and a pressure operated
valve like a multi-point to bring the burner in. Many Glow Worm
Fuelsavers. All the early Vaillant combis. Boy there was some dross
out there.


I've got a 20-year-old Fuelsaver. Mind, it is on its third fan...

Andy

--
Did someone say "plantpot"?

On 23 Jan, 22:47, "Doctor Drivel" wrote:
"David" wrote in message

...



On 22 Jan, 23:02, "Doctor Drivel" wrote:
"David" wrote in message

...

On 21 Jan, 15:58, "Vass" wrote:
New rads and pipes installed last year to an ageing Wicks boiler
Would like to put in a new one either in same position or garage
(directly
below)
Whats the boiler of choice at the moment?
1960's Semi, 3 bed.
TIA
--
Vass

Hi,

We had a Vaillant ecoTEC+ 937 fitted in October, it's been brilliant
far, it's very quiet and the hot water performance is excellent.

Very expensive for what it is, massive on the wall and poor flowrated one
the 15 litre is empty.

Take your medication and go to sleep.

You are an idiot!

You have no experience with my boiler, I live with it and enjoy
powerful showers with it. Even when the store is exhausted 15l/min is
pretty good and hardly anyone spends more than 10 minutes continuously
under the shower.
So just take your medication my old friend and go to sleep.

In message , YAPH
writes
On Thu, 22 Jan 2009 23:28:57 +0000, geoff wrote:

relay hammer ...

Que?

It comes from the mechanical action of the relay cracking the solder
joint


--
geoff

"David" wrote in message
...

We had a Vaillant ecoTEC+ 937 fitted in October, it's been brilliant
far, it's very quiet and the hot water performance is excellent.

Very expensive for what it is, massive on the wall
and poor flow rate once the 15 litre tank is empty.

Take your medication and go to sleep.

You are an idiot!

You have no experience with my boiler,

I know everything about that boiler and there are better boilers around that
are far cheaper as well. I said "Very expensive for what it is, massive on
the wall and poor flow rate once the 15 litre tank is empty."

The Worcester-Bosch 440 and 550 are superior although washing machine sized.
The Ethos 54C beats the hell out the 937.

You are bitter because you paid too much and bought a models with poor DHW
performance to others.

On 24 Jan, 12:26, "Doctor Drivel" wrote:
"David" wrote in message

...

We had a Vaillant ecoTEC+ 937 fitted in October, it's been brilliant
far, it's very quiet and the hot water performance is excellent.

Very expensive for what it is, massive on the wall
and poor flow rate once the 15 litre tank is empty.

Take your medication and go to sleep.

You are an idiot!

You have no experience with my boiler,

I know everything about that boiler and there are better boilers around that
are far cheaper as well. I said "Very expensive for what it is, massive on
the wall and poor flow rate once the 15 litre tank is empty."

The Worcester-Bosch 440 and 550 are superior although washing machine sized.
The Ethos 54C beats the hell out the 937.

You are bitter because you paid too much and bought a models with poor DHW
performance to others.

No I am NOT being bitter because I paid too much.

Worcester are overrated.
Ethos is an unknown brand to many.
Imagine the gas supply needed to run the 54C, the 937 suits our
household perfectly and is good quality.
The 937 is superior to the Ethos and Worcester.

"David" wrote in message
...
On 24 Jan, 12:26, "Doctor Drivel" wrote:
"David" wrote in message

...

We had a Vaillant ecoTEC+ 937 fitted in October, it's been
brilliant
far, it's very quiet and the hot water performance is excellent.

Very expensive for what it is, massive on the wall
and poor flow rate once the 15 litre tank is empty.

Take your medication and go to sleep.

You are an idiot!

You have no experience with my boiler,

I know everything about that boiler and there are better boilers around
that
are far cheaper as well. I said "Very expensive for what it is, massive
on
the wall and poor flow rate once the 15 litre tank is empty."

The Worcester-Bosch 440 and 550 are superior although washing machine
sized.
The Ethos 54C beats the hell out the 937.

You are bitter because you paid too much
and bought a model with poor DHW
performance to others.

No I am NOT being bitter because
I paid too much.

Beter around than that for less.

Worcester are overrated.

Reliable but the control system is lacking like Vaillants. The HighFlow 550
****es all over your expensive shed.

Ethos is an unknown brand to many.

Top quality.

Imagine the gas supply needed to run the 54C,

28mm down to 22mm, and maybe a bit 35mm at the meter depending on run. No
great shakes.

the 937 suits our
household perfectly and is good quality.
The 937 is superior to the Ethos and Worcester.

You clearly haven't a clue and bought the wrong model.

On 25 Jan, 21:00, "Doctor Drivel" wrote:
"David" wrote in message

...



On 24 Jan, 12:26, "Doctor Drivel" wrote:
"David" wrote in message

...

We had a Vaillant ecoTEC+ 937 fitted in October, it's been
brilliant
far, it's very quiet and the hot water performance is excellent.

Very expensive for what it is, massive on the wall
and poor flow rate once the 15 litre tank is empty.

Take your medication and go to sleep.

You are an idiot!

You have no experience with my boiler,

I know everything about that boiler and there are better boilers around
that
are far cheaper as well. I said "Very expensive for what it is, massive
on
the wall and poor flow rate once the 15 litre tank is empty."

The Worcester-Bosch 440 and 550 are superior although washing machine
sized.
The Ethos 54C beats the hell out the 937.

You are bitter because you paid too much
and bought a model with poor DHW
performance to others.

No I am NOT being bitter because
I paid too much.

Beter around than that for less.

Worcester are overrated.

Reliable but the control system is lacking like Vaillants. The HighFlow 550
****es all over your expensive shed.

Ethos is an unknown brand to many.

Top quality.

Imagine the gas supply needed to run the 54C,

28mm down to 22mm, and maybe a bit 35mm at the meter depending on run. No
great shakes.

the 937 suits our
household perfectly and is good quality.
The 937 is superior to the Ethos and Worcester.

You clearly haven't a clue and bought the wrong model.

I researched and asked questions on this group and on other forums.
Honestly I might have considered the Worcester if my DHW requirements
were more than what they are, they are not so high but just a little
higher than normal which is why the 937 suits us perfectly.

At one time you were recommending Atmos now it is mostly Broag and
Ethos.

The control system on a Vaillant is much better than a Worcester IMHO.

In article
,
David wrote:
I know everything about that boiler and there are better boilers
around that are far cheaper as well. I said "Very expensive for what
it is, massive on the wall and poor flow rate once the 15 litre tank
is empty."

The Worcester-Bosch 440 and 550 are superior although washing machine
sized. The Ethos 54C beats the hell out the 937.

You are bitter because you paid too much and bought a models with poor
DHW performance to others.

No I am NOT being bitter because I paid too much.

Don't concern yourself. Dribble's favourite boiler changes more often than
his underpants. [shudder] And what was fabulous last week is now crap.
That's what happens when your 'knowledge' comes purely from adverts.

--
*Succeed, in spite of management *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"David" wrote in message
...
On 25 Jan, 21:00, "Doctor Drivel" wrote:
"David" wrote in message

...



On 24 Jan, 12:26, "Doctor Drivel" wrote:
"David" wrote in message

...

We had a Vaillant ecoTEC+ 937 fitted in October, it's been
brilliant
far, it's very quiet and the hot water performance is
excellent.

Very expensive for what it is, massive on the wall
and poor flow rate once the 15 litre tank is empty.

Take your medication and go to sleep.

You are an idiot!

You have no experience with my boiler,

I know everything about that boiler and there are better boilers
around
that
are far cheaper as well. I said "Very expensive for what it is,
massive
on
the wall and poor flow rate once the 15 litre tank is empty."

The Worcester-Bosch 440 and 550 are superior although washing machine
sized.
The Ethos 54C beats the hell out the 937.

You are bitter because you paid too much
and bought a model with poor DHW
performance to others.

No I am NOT being bitter because
I paid too much.

Beter around than that for less.

Worcester are overrated.

Reliable but the control system is lacking like Vaillants. The HighFlow
550
****es all over your expensive shed.

Ethos is an unknown brand to many.

Top quality.

Imagine the gas supply needed to run the 54C,

28mm down to 22mm, and maybe a bit 35mm at the meter depending on run. No
great shakes.

the 937 suits our
household perfectly and is good quality.
The 937 is superior to the Ethos and Worcester.

You clearly haven't a clue and bought the wrong model.

I researched and asked questions on this group and on other forums.
Honestly I might have considered the Worcester if my DHW requirements
were more than what they are, they are not so high but just a little
higher than normal which is why the 937 suits us perfectly.

Better are around and cheaper.

At one time you were recommending Atmos now it is mostly Broag and
Ethos.

Atmos are still the best quality. Their flowrates are not all that
brilliant, well the models imported into the UK.

Broag are the best price/performance - built in weather compensation,and
quality too. 5 yr guarantee

Ethos are the highest flowrated wall mounted infinitely continuous combis -
built in weather compensation, and quality too.

The control system on a Vaillant is much better than a Worcester IMHO.

Both are crap. Both are 5 years behind. W-B are working on theirs.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article
,
David wrote:
I know everything about that boiler and there are better boilers
around that are far cheaper as well. I said "Very expensive for what
it is, massive on the wall and poor flow rate once the 15 litre tank
is empty."

The Worcester-Bosch 440 and 550 are superior although washing machine
sized. The Ethos 54C beats the hell out the 937.

You are bitter because you paid too much and bought a models with poor
DHW performance to others.

No I am NOT being bitter because I paid too much.

Don't

Please eff off you a complete idiotic Jocko plantpot.

On Fri, 23 Jan 2009 20:25:47 GMT, YAPH wrote:

On Fri, 23 Jan 2009 10:19:29 +0000, Mark wrote:

FWIW Worcester Bosch do a fix-priced repair that covers everything

- the fixed price currently being about £200, but if you're in a London
pstcode it's almost £300.

Another good reason not to live in London then ;-)

--
(\__/) M.
(='.'=) Owing to the amount of spam posted via googlegroups and
(")_(") their inaction to the problem. I am blocking most articles
posted from there. If you wish your postings to be seen by
everyone you will need use a different method of posting.
See http://improve-usenet.org