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New boiler - what to buy?
New rads and pipes installed last year to an ageing Wicks boiler
Would like to put in a new one either in same position or garage (directly below) Whats the boiler of choice at the moment? 1960's Semi, 3 bed. TIA -- Vass |
New boiler - what to buy?
Vass wrote:
Whats the boiler of choice at the moment? Suggest you try: http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html ....then come back with queries David |
New boiler - what to buy?
"Lobster" wrote in message ... Vass wrote: Whats the boiler of choice at the moment? Suggest you try: http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html ...then come back with queries oooh ta! |
New boiler - what to buy?
Lobster wrote:
Vass wrote: Whats the boiler of choice at the moment? Suggest you try: http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html ...then come back with queries David I think most people, myself included, would just like a definitive recommendation to a make or model rather than a general treatise on the ins and outs. The most important thing I suspect is which makes are most reliable. I still have no idea. -- Dave Baker |
New boiler - what to buy?
Dave Baker coughed up some electrons that declared:
I think most people, myself included, would just like a definitive recommendation to a make or model rather than a general treatise on the ins and outs. The most important thing I suspect is which makes are most reliable. I still have no idea. I'm looking at Viessmann based on odd snippets from this group, reading around the intrawebtubes and reading the blurb on the manufacturer's website. I haven't got one yet, but they look fairly solid. They do have one or two restrictions in the datasheet that, say, Worcester Bosch don't, such as a requirement for water pressure at the boiler (open vented type) to be 0.2 bar = about 2m head to tank. If not Viessmann, I might look at Worcester Bosch next. Perhaps some design goals from the OP would be useful: eg is it an open vented system or sealed; is Vass looking for cheap or long life[1]; small compact model or don't care? And most importantly, what fuel (LPG, nat gas or oil)?. Cheers Tim [1] in which case, rephrasing the question to something like: "Which make goes wrong the least?" might attract some useful answers - there's at least 3 CORGI chaps here plus everyone else's personal experiences. |
New boiler - what to buy?
Dave Baker wrote:
Lobster wrote: Vass wrote: Whats the boiler of choice at the moment? Suggest you try: http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html ...then come back with queries I think most people, myself included, would just like a definitive recommendation to a make or model rather than a general treatise on the ins and outs. The most important thing I suspect is which makes are most reliable. I still have no idea. I've been reading the 'Which Boiler' threads for the last 3 years or so, as I knew mine was going to need changing. The stock answer was/is Worcester/Bosch. Then someone (Geoff?) reported a lot of circuit board failures as they reached ~5 years old. In my quest for a boiler, I was doing a straight swap, combi for combi. So, did I go for the supposedly better quality offerings at £750, or the cheap one at £300? I went with the cheapy, £330 inc. flue from B+Q, a Heatline Viso (it then was reduced to £270ish for a few weeks, then went up to £399). My thinking was that the previous Alpha had cost £800ish 10 years ago, and had failed on 4 or 5 occasions, and was needing more repairs. At £330 for a new boiler, if it lasted me five years without breakdowns, it would be worth it. In the 4 months I have had it , it has been flawless. Certainly noisier that the old Alpha, and a poorer design, as it doesnt have space to hide the pipes behind the boiler, but, for the money, it is fine. Obviously if you need to pay someone to fit it, then you would have extra install costs, so it may not be such a bargain, but as I DIY, it is certainly cost effective for me. Alan. -- To reply by e-mail, change the ' + ' to 'plus'. |
New boiler - what to buy?
In article , Dave Baker
writes Lobster wrote: Vass wrote: Whats the boiler of choice at the moment? Suggest you try: http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html ...then come back with queries David I think most people, myself included, would just like a definitive recommendation to a make or model rather than a general treatise on the ins and outs. The most important thing I suspect is which makes are most reliable. I still have no idea. So Dave, what's the car of choice at the moment :-? -- fred BBC3, ITV2/3/4, channels going to the DOGs |
New boiler - what to buy?
On Wed, 21 Jan 2009 17:20:09 +0000, Tim S wrote:
Dave Baker coughed up some electrons that declared: I think most people, myself included, would just like a definitive recommendation to a make or model rather than a general treatise on the ins and outs. The most important thing I suspect is which makes are most reliable. I still have no idea. I'm looking at Viessmann based on odd snippets from this group, reading around the intrawebtubes and reading the blurb on the manufacturer's website. I haven't got one yet, but they look fairly solid. They do have one or two restrictions in the datasheet that, say, Worcester Bosch don't, such as a requirement for water pressure at the boiler (open vented type) to be 0.2 bar = about 2m head to tank. If not Viessmann, I might look at Worcester Bosch next. Perhaps some design goals from the OP would be useful: eg is it an open vented system or sealed; is Vass looking for cheap or long life[1]; small compact model or don't care? And most importantly, what fuel (LPG, nat gas or oil)?. Cheers Tim [1] in which case, rephrasing the question to something like: "Which make goes wrong the least?" might attract some useful answers - there's at least 3 CORGI chaps here plus everyone else's personal experiences. That'll be at least four different makes then from just the pros! I myself would use different makes for different circumstances. Depending on flue easy or not, combi or not, sealed primary or not. We tend to like ones that we've seen a lot of and/or installed a lot of, a model which is unrepairable i.e there are just so many things wrong and when you fix one fault then something else goes wrong soon gets a poor mark in my book. Stock faults are not as bad as you might think for counting against a model. -- Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter. The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html |
New boiler - what to buy?
On Wed, 21 Jan 2009 17:04:30 +0000, Dave Baker wrote:
I think most people, myself included, would just like a definitive recommendation to a make or model rather than a general treatise on the ins and outs. The most important thing I suspect is which makes are most reliable. I still have no idea. I fit Worcester Bosch, generally 24i Juniors (combis). As decent boilers go they're reasonably priced and, although the details of case fixings etc are annoyingly poorly thought out I think the basic design (especially heat exchangers) is sound. Unlike Poxi-Batterton they don't have a reputation for shafting their customers (Google "Suprima"). And unlike Ideal their designs don't chew up and spit out expensive PCBs at the drop of a hat. And their tech support people (a) answer their phones, and (b) aren't entirely devoid of Clue. -- John Stumbles -- http://yaph.co.uk Fundamentalist agnostic |
New boiler - what to buy?
Dave Baker wrote:
Lobster wrote: Vass wrote: Whats the boiler of choice at the moment? Suggest you try: http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html ...then come back with queries David I think most people, myself included, would just like a definitive recommendation to a make or model rather than a general treatise on the ins and outs. The most important thing I suspect is which makes are most reliable. I still have no idea. I can give you a definitive recommendation on who to avoid: Ideal Boilers We had one. After 5 years it broke a week before christmas (~2003). We ended up in a dispute between Ideal and British Gas (the installer) about who's fault it was. At one stage they (Ideal) threaten to take us to court. I wrote several letters to their MD. etc. I could post more details but it's a long sorry tale that I have thankfully mostly forgotten. I am simply left with a reflex... if any one ever asks about boilers - tell them to avoid Ideal. |
New boiler - what to buy?
On Wed, 21 Jan 2009 19:20:15 +0000, Robin wrote:
I could post more details but it's a long sorry tale that I have thankfully mostly forgotten. I am simply left with a reflex... if any one ever asks about boilers - tell them to avoid Ideal. Indeed. Just been involved in fixing one for a mate (sparks I sometimes work with). PCB ovbiously dead, only for about the 3rd time in the, oooh must be 3 or 4 year life of the beast. New PCB fitted, this time from well known reconditioner of PCBs and the like. Boiler then powers up without blowing any fuses and shows an error code which indicates fan problem. So new fan neded as well. According to well known reconditioner fan fault can blow PCB. Well known reconditioiner opines scathing view of Ideal controls design, not fit for family audience but clue: initials P, O and S. Your correspondent agrees. Unfortunate owner of particular P, O and S resolve to replace said as soon as weather and your correspondent's workload permit. -- John Stumbles -- http://yaph.co.uk There's nowt as queer as folk. Especially other folk. |
New boiler - what to buy?
Indeed. Just been involved in fixing one for a mate (sparks I sometimes
work with). PCB ovbiously dead, only for about the 3rd time in the, oooh must be 3 or 4 year life of the beast. New PCB fitted, this time from well known reconditioner of PCBs and the like. Boiler then powers up without blowing any fuses and shows an error code which indicates fan problem. So new fan neded as well. According to well known reconditioner fan fault can blow PCB. Funnily enough, the PCB on our Worcester Bosch has had to be replaced either two or three times now, along with pretty much everything else electrical in it (fan, transformer and so on) The PCB on the WB is also a POS that is designed to break if the fan goes - no damage limitation devices such as (gasp) a fuse. |
New boiler - what to buy?
In message , A.Lee
writes Dave Baker wrote: Lobster wrote: Vass wrote: Whats the boiler of choice at the moment? Suggest you try: http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html ...then come back with queries I think most people, myself included, would just like a definitive recommendation to a make or model rather than a general treatise on the ins and outs. The most important thing I suspect is which makes are most reliable. I still have no idea. I've been reading the 'Which Boiler' threads for the last 3 years or so, as I knew mine was going to need changing. The stock answer was/is Worcester/Bosch. Then someone (Geoff?) reported a lot of circuit board failures as they reached ~5 years old. Yeah, pcbs AND fans the 24i and 28i are in the premier division for both the later models are creeping up in "popularity" In my quest for a boiler, I was doing a straight swap, combi for combi. So, did I go for the supposedly better quality offerings at £750, or the cheap one at £300? I went with the cheapy, £330 inc. flue from B+Q, a Heatline Viso (it then was reduced to £270ish for a few weeks, then went up to £399). My thinking was that the previous Alpha had cost £800ish 10 years ago, and had failed on 4 or 5 occasions, and was needing more repairs. At £330 for a new boiler, if it lasted me five years without breakdowns, it would be worth it. In the 4 months I have had it , it has been flawless. Certainly noisier that the old Alpha, and a poorer design, as it doesnt have space to hide the pipes behind the boiler, but, for the money, it is fine. Obviously if you need to pay someone to fit it, then you would have extra install costs, so it may not be such a bargain, but as I DIY, it is certainly cost effective for me. Alan. I think that you would expect almost any boiler to be fairly faultless for that length of time -- geoff |
New boiler - what to buy?
In message , Robin
writes Dave Baker wrote: Lobster wrote: Vass wrote: Whats the boiler of choice at the moment? Suggest you try: http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html ...then come back with queries David I think most people, myself included, would just like a definitive recommendation to a make or model rather than a general treatise on the ins and outs. The most important thing I suspect is which makes are most reliable. I still have no idea. I can give you a definitive recommendation on who to avoid: Ideal Boilers We had one. After 5 years it broke a week before christmas (~2003). We ended up in a dispute between Ideal and British Gas (the installer) about who's fault it was. At one stage they (Ideal) threaten to take us to court. I wrote several letters to their MD. etc. I could post more details but it's a long sorry tale that I have thankfully mostly forgotten. I am simply left with a reflex... if any one ever asks about boilers - tell them to avoid Ideal. So, on a statistical spread of one, and no experience of anything else .... excuse me if I don't take your whingeing seriously -- geoff |
New boiler - what to buy?
In message , YAPH
writes On Wed, 21 Jan 2009 19:20:15 +0000, Robin wrote: I could post more details but it's a long sorry tale that I have thankfully mostly forgotten. I am simply left with a reflex... if any one ever asks about boilers - tell them to avoid Ideal. Indeed. Just been involved in fixing one for a mate (sparks I sometimes work with). PCB ovbiously dead, only for about the 3rd time in the, oooh must be 3 or 4 year life of the beast. New PCB fitted, this time from well known reconditioner of PCBs and the like. Boiler then powers up without blowing any fuses and shows an error code which indicates fan problem. So new fan neded as well. According to well known reconditioner fan fault can blow PCB. Well known reconditioiner opines scathing view of Ideal controls design, not fit for family audience but clue: initials P, O and S. Your correspondent agrees. Unfortunate owner of particular P, O and S resolve to replace said as soon as weather and your correspondent's workload permit. Unfortunately the well known reconditioner might say more or less the same against many other boiler manufacturers -- geoff |
New boiler - what to buy?
In message , Colin
Wilson o.uk writes Indeed. Just been involved in fixing one for a mate (sparks I sometimes work with). PCB ovbiously dead, only for about the 3rd time in the, oooh must be 3 or 4 year life of the beast. New PCB fitted, this time from well known reconditioner of PCBs and the like. Boiler then powers up without blowing any fuses and shows an error code which indicates fan problem. So new fan neded as well. According to well known reconditioner fan fault can blow PCB. Funnily enough, the PCB on our Worcester Bosch has had to be replaced either two or three times now, along with pretty much everything else electrical in it (fan, transformer and so on) The PCB on the WB is also a POS that is designed to break if the fan goes - no damage limitation devices such as (gasp) a fuse. Err sorry, what WB boiler is that ? They are all driven by a relay , which deteriorates over time, but thats all ... -- geoff |
New boiler - what to buy?
A.Lee wrote:
Dave Baker wrote: Lobster wrote: Vass wrote: Whats the boiler of choice at the moment? Suggest you try: http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html ...then come back with queries I think most people, myself included, would just like a definitive recommendation to a make or model rather than a general treatise on the ins and outs. The most important thing I suspect is which makes are most reliable. I still have no idea. I've been reading the 'Which Boiler' threads for the last 3 years or so, as I knew mine was going to need changing. The stock answer was/is Worcester/Bosch. Then someone (Geoff?) reported a lot of circuit board failures as they reached ~5 years old. In my quest for a boiler, I was doing a straight swap, combi for combi. So, did I go for the supposedly better quality offerings at £750, or the cheap one at £300? I went with the cheapy, £330 inc. flue from B+Q, a Heatline Viso (it then was reduced to £270ish for a few weeks, then went up to £399). My thinking was that the previous Alpha had cost £800ish 10 years ago, and had failed on 4 or 5 occasions, and was needing more repairs. At £330 for a new boiler, if it lasted me five years without breakdowns, it would be worth it. In the 4 months I have had it , it has been flawless. Certainly noisier that the old Alpha, and a poorer design, as it doesnt have space to hide the pipes behind the boiler, but, for the money, it is fine. Obviously if you need to pay someone to fit it, then you would have extra install costs, so it may not be such a bargain, but as I DIY, it is certainly cost effective for me. Alan. My Glow Worm 30Sxi just needed a new controller PCB after 3 years :( - just after I'd taken-out a BG service contract! Dave |
New boiler - what to buy?
NoSpam wrote:
A.Lee wrote: Dave Baker wrote: Lobster wrote: Vass wrote: Whats the boiler of choice at the moment? Suggest you try: http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html ...then come back with queries I think most people, myself included, would just like a definitive recommendation to a make or model rather than a general treatise on the ins and outs. The most important thing I suspect is which makes are most reliable. I still have no idea. I've been reading the 'Which Boiler' threads for the last 3 years or so, as I knew mine was going to need changing. The stock answer was/is Worcester/Bosch. Then someone (Geoff?) reported a lot of circuit board failures as they reached ~5 years old. In my quest for a boiler, I was doing a straight swap, combi for combi. So, did I go for the supposedly better quality offerings at £750, or the cheap one at £300? I went with the cheapy, £330 inc. flue from B+Q, a Heatline Viso (it then was reduced to £270ish for a few weeks, then went up to £399). My thinking was that the previous Alpha had cost £800ish 10 years ago, and had failed on 4 or 5 occasions, and was needing more repairs. At £330 for a new boiler, if it lasted me five years without breakdowns, it would be worth it. In the 4 months I have had it , it has been flawless. Certainly noisier that the old Alpha, and a poorer design, as it doesnt have space to hide the pipes behind the boiler, but, for the money, it is fine. Obviously if you need to pay someone to fit it, then you would have extra install costs, so it may not be such a bargain, but as I DIY, it is certainly cost effective for me. Alan. My Glow Worm 30Sxi just needed a new controller PCB after 3 years :( - just after I'd taken-out a BG service contract! I know it's old news and way too late for any of us to do anything about it but when you look at the reliability of modern boilers, the repair costs, the useful total life and compare to old traditional types like my Potterton which ran for over 20 years with only a new thermocouple every now and then you wonder how things have improved. Sure the new boilers are more gas efficient but can't we have both that and reliability? I think total ownership costs are higher now than they were with inefficient but reliable boilers. Why do PCBs fail so often? They are reliable enough in other appliances. If they are getting too hot is it beyond the wit of the designers to site and insulate them better? -- Dave Baker |
New boiler - what to buy?
geoff wrote:
In message , Robin writes Dave Baker wrote: Lobster wrote: Vass wrote: Whats the boiler of choice at the moment? Suggest you try: http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html ...then come back with queries David I think most people, myself included, would just like a definitive recommendation to a make or model rather than a general treatise on the ins and outs. The most important thing I suspect is which makes are most reliable. I still have no idea. I can give you a definitive recommendation on who to avoid: Ideal Boilers We had one. After 5 years it broke a week before christmas (~2003). We ended up in a dispute between Ideal and British Gas (the installer) about who's fault it was. At one stage they (Ideal) threaten to take us to court. I wrote several letters to their MD. etc. I could post more details but it's a long sorry tale that I have thankfully mostly forgotten. I am simply left with a reflex... if any one ever asks about boilers - tell them to avoid Ideal. So, on a statistical spread of one, and no experience of anything else ... excuse me if I don't take your whingeing seriously Mm. I've have an Ideal boiler fitted in a rented-out property for about 4-5 years and it's been brilliant; given me no trouble at all. So I guess I'd unhesitatingly reccommend Ideal to anyone. Unlike the bloody Vaillant condensing boiler in my own house... David |
New boiler - what to buy?
In article ,
Dave Baker wrote: Why do PCBs fail so often? They are reliable enough in other appliances. If they are getting too hot is it beyond the wit of the designers to site and insulate them better? Basically ****e design, components and build. Looks to me that those makers operate the principle of saving a penny on each unit adds up to a fortune overall. Of course PCBs can have a very long life. -- *Why isn't there mouse-flavoured cat food? Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
New boiler - what to buy?
Dave Baker wrote:
NoSpam wrote: A.Lee wrote: Dave Baker wrote: Lobster wrote: Vass wrote: Whats the boiler of choice at the moment? Suggest you try: http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html ...then come back with queries I think most people, myself included, would just like a definitive recommendation to a make or model rather than a general treatise on the ins and outs. The most important thing I suspect is which makes are most reliable. I still have no idea. I've been reading the 'Which Boiler' threads for the last 3 years or so, as I knew mine was going to need changing. The stock answer was/is Worcester/Bosch. Then someone (Geoff?) reported a lot of circuit board failures as they reached ~5 years old. In my quest for a boiler, I was doing a straight swap, combi for combi. So, did I go for the supposedly better quality offerings at £750, or the cheap one at £300? I went with the cheapy, £330 inc. flue from B+Q, a Heatline Viso (it then was reduced to £270ish for a few weeks, then went up to £399). My thinking was that the previous Alpha had cost £800ish 10 years ago, and had failed on 4 or 5 occasions, and was needing more repairs. At £330 for a new boiler, if it lasted me five years without breakdowns, it would be worth it. In the 4 months I have had it , it has been flawless. Certainly noisier that the old Alpha, and a poorer design, as it doesnt have space to hide the pipes behind the boiler, but, for the money, it is fine. Obviously if you need to pay someone to fit it, then you would have extra install costs, so it may not be such a bargain, but as I DIY, it is certainly cost effective for me. Alan. My Glow Worm 30Sxi just needed a new controller PCB after 3 years :( - just after I'd taken-out a BG service contract! I know it's old news and way too late for any of us to do anything about it but when you look at the reliability of modern boilers, the repair costs, the useful total life and compare to old traditional types like my Potterton which ran for over 20 years with only a new thermocouple every now and then you wonder how things have improved. Sure the new boilers are more gas efficient but can't we have both that and reliability? I think total ownership costs are higher now than they were with inefficient but reliable boilers. Why do PCBs fail so often? They are reliable enough in other appliances. If they are getting too hot is it beyond the wit of the designers to site and insulate them better? Had an interesting discussion with a boiler engineer the other day (I was "babysitting" him in a neighbour's house because he wasn't allowed to work alone). I happened to overhear the phone conversation he had with the neighbour, the gist of which was that something or another had failed due to corrosion (he was holding a flat rectangular box with two pairs of pipe connectors) and that it wasn't covered by her insurance. Not only that, but she would need a power flush before the next service. I asked him which side of "the box" had failed, and he shrugged his shoulders. I said that, in my opinion (worthless, but he didn't know that), the hot water side was more likely to be scaled. Made him a cuppa and he agreed not to charge the customer. No skin off his nose etc. Moral of this is, boiler insurance is probably a good deal these days (cost of parts is the killer), but make sure it covers "scale damage". Too many wriggle-out options otherwise. |
New boiler - what to buy?
"Dave Baker" wrote in message ... I know it's old news and way too late for any of us to do anything about it but when you look at the reliability of modern boilers, the repair costs, the useful total life and compare to old traditional types like my Potterton which ran for over 20 years with only a new thermocouple every now and then you wonder how things have improved. Modern "quality" boilers are reliable. Look at an Atmos or Atag. Buy cheap and you get what you pay for. You only hear of the problems on these groups not the successes. A relative has just replace a 15 year old Worcester combi. It was never once serviced or once went wrong. They renewed because the system needed replacing as the rads were rotting as the system was neglected. The new combi has a 17 litre/min flowrate too. So, they went for a new system: boiler, rads, pipes. I know of some Keston boilers, when they made decent boilers, which were coupled to thermal stores 17, 18 or 19 years ago. They have not failed once, although they were the super simple spiral tube heat exchanger condensing versions without even a pcb. The perfect hydraulic environment for a boiler is when attached to a thermal store with two anti-cycle stats. Fit any boiler to a thermal store with two anti-cycle boiler stats and it will last and be trouble free. They only come in a few times a day to give one long efficient burn. No switching in and out of controls constantly. Also, when a boiler is changed few system are cleaned properly. Always clean a system and fit a Magnaclean filter. A clean system means a longer boiler life, especially on combis. |
New boiler - what to buy?
"Vass" wrote in message ... New rads and pipes installed last year to an ageing Wicks boiler Would like to put in a new one either in same position or garage (directly below) Whats the boiler of choice at the moment? 1960's Semi, 3 bed. Go for a good flow combi, if the cold mains is up to it. Ditch the cylinders, power shower pumps and tanks. Avoid the Worcester-Bosch. They are 5 years out of date with poor control systems. Vaillant are not far behind and are expensive. Look at a the Dutch Broag Avantaplus 35C or 39C combi. http://www.avantaplus.co.uk Broag are made by Remeha who are well established in commercial boilers in the UK. The 39C is £917 inc VAT, that is very well priced for a 40kW boiler. http://www.tradingdepot.co.uk/DEF/ca...meha%20Boilers http://www.centurionhbs.co.uk/shop/p... entID=&sort= Look at the combi options pages 17 to 21. The outside senors etc, are extra. http://www.avantaplus.com/docs/Issue...%20Booklet.pdf Have a Magnaclean filter on the return to the boiler. That will prevent any blocking up of the tubes in the heat exchanger. The same for all boilers. The Broag, has a 5 year guarantee. They use primarily industry standard components and little plastic with Gianonni stainless steel heat exchangers, Honeywell brass hydroblocks, Grundfos pumps, etc. The Broags are better quality than Vaillant and much cheaper. They are a well priced quality boilers having a superb control system with integrated outside weather compensation and OpenTherm protocol control. Buy the outside weather temperature sensor and use weather compensation - great comfort conditions and economy. You will not look back. The heating and system boilers are "dual temperature" boilers. These types of boilers are few are far between, but will reheat a cylinder suoper fast at top temperature and then revert to lower weather compensation temperatures when heating the rads. The best price/performance around. |
New boiler - what to buy?
"A.Lee" wrote in message ... I went with the cheapy, £330 inc. flue from B+Q, a Heatline Viso (it then was reduced to £270ish for a few weeks, then went up to £399). My thinking was that the previous Alpha had cost £800ish 10 years ago, and had failed on 4 or 5 occasions, and was needing more repairs. At £330 for a new boiler, if it lasted me five years without breakdowns, it would be worth it. Good thinking. Only applies to DIY where you can swap out a boiler in half a day. |
New boiler - what to buy?
Stuart Noble wrote:
Moral of this is, boiler insurance is probably a good deal these days (cost of parts is the killer), but make sure it covers "scale damage". Too many wriggle-out options otherwise. I would dispute that. Yes, it is good if a £300 PCB goes, but for many people, it is just money wasted. I wrote here before Christmas of a nightmare I had when changing a radiator, where the header tank was so full of gunge, it subsequently blocked the boiler when the rad was refilled. The home owner had a service and insurance contract, with ,I think, EON. The CORGI man attending for me said the boiler had not been serviced properly for many years, even the front cover/seal was not fitted properly.There was 2 inch of sediment in the header tank. Specific exclusions in the Insurance were corrosion damage, yet the same people were 'servicing' the boiler, not cleaning it, or putting in any inhibitor. Obviously there may be some good insurance schemes, but the ones I have seen have so many clauses that they could turn down claims for nearly anything. Alan. -- To reply by e-mail, change the ' + ' to 'plus'. |
New boiler - what to buy?
"YAPH" wrote in message ... On Wed, 21 Jan 2009 17:04:30 +0000, Dave Baker wrote: I think most people, myself included, would just like a definitive recommendation to a make or model rather than a general treatise on the ins and outs. The most important thing I suspect is which makes are most reliable. I still have no idea. I fit Worcester Bosch, generally 24i Juniors (combis). As decent boilers go they're reasonably priced and, although the details of case fixings etc are annoyingly poorly thought out I think the basic design (especially heat exchangers) is sound. Unlike Poxi-Batterton they don't have a reputation for shafting their customers (Google "Suprima"). And unlike Ideal their designs don't chew up and spit out expensive PCBs at the drop of a hat. And their tech support people (a) answer their phones, and (b) aren't entirely devoid of Clue. Unfortunately the design are 5 years out of date, so avoid. They updating the range with better OpenTherm control systems, integrated weather compensation, etc.. Not here yet, so avoid until they come. I would put a simple heating or system boiler on a thermal store though. |
New boiler - what to buy?
Stuart Noble wrote:
Dave Baker wrote: NoSpam wrote: A.Lee wrote: Dave Baker wrote: Lobster wrote: Vass wrote: Whats the boiler of choice at the moment? Suggest you try: http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html ...then come back with queries I think most people, myself included, would just like a definitive recommendation to a make or model rather than a general treatise on the ins and outs. The most important thing I suspect is which makes are most reliable. I still have no idea. I've been reading the 'Which Boiler' threads for the last 3 years or so, as I knew mine was going to need changing. The stock answer was/is Worcester/Bosch. Then someone (Geoff?) reported a lot of circuit board failures as they reached ~5 years old. In my quest for a boiler, I was doing a straight swap, combi for combi. So, did I go for the supposedly better quality offerings at £750, or the cheap one at £300? I went with the cheapy, £330 inc. flue from B+Q, a Heatline Viso (it then was reduced to £270ish for a few weeks, then went up to £399). My thinking was that the previous Alpha had cost £800ish 10 years ago, and had failed on 4 or 5 occasions, and was needing more repairs. At £330 for a new boiler, if it lasted me five years without breakdowns, it would be worth it. In the 4 months I have had it , it has been flawless. Certainly noisier that the old Alpha, and a poorer design, as it doesnt have space to hide the pipes behind the boiler, but, for the money, it is fine. Obviously if you need to pay someone to fit it, then you would have extra install costs, so it may not be such a bargain, but as I DIY, it is certainly cost effective for me. Alan. My Glow Worm 30Sxi just needed a new controller PCB after 3 years :( - just after I'd taken-out a BG service contract! I know it's old news and way too late for any of us to do anything about it but when you look at the reliability of modern boilers, the repair costs, the useful total life and compare to old traditional types like my Potterton which ran for over 20 years with only a new thermocouple every now and then you wonder how things have improved. Sure the new boilers are more gas efficient but can't we have both that and reliability? I think total ownership costs are higher now than they were with inefficient but reliable boilers. Why do PCBs fail so often? They are reliable enough in other appliances. If they are getting too hot is it beyond the wit of the designers to site and insulate them better? Had an interesting discussion with a boiler engineer the other day (I was "babysitting" him in a neighbour's house because he wasn't allowed to work alone). I happened to overhear the phone conversation he had with the neighbour, the gist of which was that something or another had failed due to corrosion (he was holding a flat rectangular box with two pairs of pipe connectors) and that it wasn't covered by her insurance. Not only that, but she would need a power flush before the next service. I asked him which side of "the box" had failed, and he shrugged his shoulders. I said that, in my opinion (worthless, but he didn't know that), the hot water side was more likely to be scaled. Made him a cuppa and he agreed not to charge the customer. No skin off his nose etc. Moral of this is, boiler insurance is probably a good deal these days (cost of parts is the killer), but make sure it covers "scale damage". Too many wriggle-out options otherwise. In many areas of insurance, the premium is related to the risk. Buy a Porsche and expect to pay more than for a Ka. Go to China and Mongolia for a month, expect to pay more than a weekend in France. Surely the insurance companies would help us all if we paid according to boiler model? One possible, obvious reason not to do so would be if the costs (to them) are a small proportion of charges (to us). -- Rod Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious onset. Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed. www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org |
New boiler - what to buy?
On Wed, 21 Jan 2009 23:10:24 -0000, Colin Wilson
o.uk wrote: Indeed. Just been involved in fixing one for a mate (sparks I sometimes work with). PCB ovbiously dead, only for about the 3rd time in the, oooh must be 3 or 4 year life of the beast. New PCB fitted, this time from well known reconditioner of PCBs and the like. Boiler then powers up without blowing any fuses and shows an error code which indicates fan problem. So new fan neded as well. According to well known reconditioner fan fault can blow PCB. Funnily enough, the PCB on our Worcester Bosch has had to be replaced either two or three times now, along with pretty much everything else electrical in it (fan, transformer and so on) The PCB on the WB is also a POS that is designed to break if the fan goes - no damage limitation devices such as (gasp) a fuse. The PCB on my WB boiler did not fail when the fan died. -- (\__/) M. (='.'=) Owing to the amount of spam posted via googlegroups and (")_(") their inaction to the problem. I am blocking most articles posted from there. If you wish your postings to be seen by everyone you will need use a different method of posting. See http://improve-usenet.org |
New boiler - what to buy?
Rod wrote:
Stuart Noble wrote: Dave Baker wrote: NoSpam wrote: A.Lee wrote: Dave Baker wrote: Lobster wrote: Vass wrote: Whats the boiler of choice at the moment? Suggest you try: http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html ...then come back with queries I think most people, myself included, would just like a definitive recommendation to a make or model rather than a general treatise on the ins and outs. The most important thing I suspect is which makes are most reliable. I still have no idea. I've been reading the 'Which Boiler' threads for the last 3 years or so, as I knew mine was going to need changing. The stock answer was/is Worcester/Bosch. Then someone (Geoff?) reported a lot of circuit board failures as they reached ~5 years old. In my quest for a boiler, I was doing a straight swap, combi for combi. So, did I go for the supposedly better quality offerings at £750, or the cheap one at £300? I went with the cheapy, £330 inc. flue from B+Q, a Heatline Viso (it then was reduced to £270ish for a few weeks, then went up to £399). My thinking was that the previous Alpha had cost £800ish 10 years ago, and had failed on 4 or 5 occasions, and was needing more repairs. At £330 for a new boiler, if it lasted me five years without breakdowns, it would be worth it. In the 4 months I have had it , it has been flawless. Certainly noisier that the old Alpha, and a poorer design, as it doesnt have space to hide the pipes behind the boiler, but, for the money, it is fine. Obviously if you need to pay someone to fit it, then you would have extra install costs, so it may not be such a bargain, but as I DIY, it is certainly cost effective for me. Alan. My Glow Worm 30Sxi just needed a new controller PCB after 3 years :( - just after I'd taken-out a BG service contract! I know it's old news and way too late for any of us to do anything about it but when you look at the reliability of modern boilers, the repair costs, the useful total life and compare to old traditional types like my Potterton which ran for over 20 years with only a new thermocouple every now and then you wonder how things have improved. Sure the new boilers are more gas efficient but can't we have both that and reliability? I think total ownership costs are higher now than they were with inefficient but reliable boilers. Why do PCBs fail so often? They are reliable enough in other appliances. If they are getting too hot is it beyond the wit of the designers to site and insulate them better? Had an interesting discussion with a boiler engineer the other day (I was "babysitting" him in a neighbour's house because he wasn't allowed to work alone). I happened to overhear the phone conversation he had with the neighbour, the gist of which was that something or another had failed due to corrosion (he was holding a flat rectangular box with two pairs of pipe connectors) and that it wasn't covered by her insurance. Not only that, but she would need a power flush before the next service. I asked him which side of "the box" had failed, and he shrugged his shoulders. I said that, in my opinion (worthless, but he didn't know that), the hot water side was more likely to be scaled. Made him a cuppa and he agreed not to charge the customer. No skin off his nose etc. Moral of this is, boiler insurance is probably a good deal these days (cost of parts is the killer), but make sure it covers "scale damage". Too many wriggle-out options otherwise. In many areas of insurance, the premium is related to the risk. Buy a Porsche and expect to pay more than for a Ka. Go to China and Mongolia for a month, expect to pay more than a weekend in France. Surely the insurance companies would help us all if we paid according to boiler model? One possible, obvious reason not to do so would be if the costs (to them) are a small proportion of charges (to us). Or if there's no meaningful difference in reliability. Shock, horror. |
New boiler - what to buy?
Stuart Noble wrote:
Rod wrote: Stuart Noble wrote: Dave Baker wrote: NoSpam wrote: A.Lee wrote: Dave Baker wrote: Lobster wrote: Vass wrote: Whats the boiler of choice at the moment? Suggest you try: http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html ...then come back with queries I think most people, myself included, would just like a definitive recommendation to a make or model rather than a general treatise on the ins and outs. The most important thing I suspect is which makes are most reliable. I still have no idea. I've been reading the 'Which Boiler' threads for the last 3 years or so, as I knew mine was going to need changing. The stock answer was/is Worcester/Bosch. Then someone (Geoff?) reported a lot of circuit board failures as they reached ~5 years old. In my quest for a boiler, I was doing a straight swap, combi for combi. So, did I go for the supposedly better quality offerings at £750, or the cheap one at £300? I went with the cheapy, £330 inc. flue from B+Q, a Heatline Viso (it then was reduced to £270ish for a few weeks, then went up to £399). My thinking was that the previous Alpha had cost £800ish 10 years ago, and had failed on 4 or 5 occasions, and was needing more repairs. At £330 for a new boiler, if it lasted me five years without breakdowns, it would be worth it. In the 4 months I have had it , it has been flawless. Certainly noisier that the old Alpha, and a poorer design, as it doesnt have space to hide the pipes behind the boiler, but, for the money, it is fine. Obviously if you need to pay someone to fit it, then you would have extra install costs, so it may not be such a bargain, but as I DIY, it is certainly cost effective for me. Alan. My Glow Worm 30Sxi just needed a new controller PCB after 3 years :( - just after I'd taken-out a BG service contract! I know it's old news and way too late for any of us to do anything about it but when you look at the reliability of modern boilers, the repair costs, the useful total life and compare to old traditional types like my Potterton which ran for over 20 years with only a new thermocouple every now and then you wonder how things have improved. Sure the new boilers are more gas efficient but can't we have both that and reliability? I think total ownership costs are higher now than they were with inefficient but reliable boilers. Why do PCBs fail so often? They are reliable enough in other appliances. If they are getting too hot is it beyond the wit of the designers to site and insulate them better? Had an interesting discussion with a boiler engineer the other day (I was "babysitting" him in a neighbour's house because he wasn't allowed to work alone). I happened to overhear the phone conversation he had with the neighbour, the gist of which was that something or another had failed due to corrosion (he was holding a flat rectangular box with two pairs of pipe connectors) and that it wasn't covered by her insurance. Not only that, but she would need a power flush before the next service. I asked him which side of "the box" had failed, and he shrugged his shoulders. I said that, in my opinion (worthless, but he didn't know that), the hot water side was more likely to be scaled. Made him a cuppa and he agreed not to charge the customer. No skin off his nose etc. Moral of this is, boiler insurance is probably a good deal these days (cost of parts is the killer), but make sure it covers "scale damage". Too many wriggle-out options otherwise. In many areas of insurance, the premium is related to the risk. Buy a Porsche and expect to pay more than for a Ka. Go to China and Mongolia for a month, expect to pay more than a weekend in France. Surely the insurance companies would help us all if we paid according to boiler model? One possible, obvious reason not to do so would be if the costs (to them) are a small proportion of charges (to us). Or if there's no meaningful difference in reliability. Shock, horror. Indeed - that is a perfectly reasonable suggestion. (I have no real idea of the truth.) But I have a feeling some people here wouldn't agree... :-) -- Rod Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious onset. Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed. www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org |
New boiler - what to buy?
On 21 Jan, 15:58, "Vass" wrote:
New rads and pipes installed last year to an ageing Wicks boiler Would like to put in a new one either in same position or garage (directly below) Whats the boiler of choice at the moment? 1960's Semi, 3 bed. TIA -- Vass Hi, We had a Vaillant ecoTEC+ 937 fitted in October, it's been brilliant far, it's very quiet and the hot water performance is excellent. |
New boiler - what to buy?
Huge wrote:
On 2009-01-22, geoff wrote: In message , Robin writes I could post more details but it's a long sorry tale that I have thankfully mostly forgotten. I am simply left with a reflex... if any one ever asks about boilers - tell them to avoid Ideal. So, on a statistical spread of one, and no experience of anything else ... excuse me if I don't take your whingeing seriously Why bother taking the chance? Even if the boilers are reliable, the company is obviously a PITA to deal with. Quite right. Won't be for long though: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/n...g-experts.html |
New boiler - what to buy?
geoff wrote:
In message , Robin writes Dave Baker wrote: Lobster wrote: Vass wrote: Whats the boiler of choice at the moment? Suggest you try: http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html ...then come back with queries David I think most people, myself included, would just like a definitive recommendation to a make or model rather than a general treatise on the ins and outs. The most important thing I suspect is which makes are most reliable. I still have no idea. I can give you a definitive recommendation on who to avoid: Ideal Boilers We had one. After 5 years it broke a week before christmas (~2003). We ended up in a dispute between Ideal and British Gas (the installer) about who's fault it was. At one stage they (Ideal) threaten to take us to court. I wrote several letters to their MD. etc. I could post more details but it's a long sorry tale that I have thankfully mostly forgotten. I am simply left with a reflex... if any one ever asks about boilers - tell them to avoid Ideal. So, on a statistical spread of one, and no experience of anything else ... excuse me if I don't take your whingeing seriously When the heat exchanger failed, Ideal would only agree to replace it if the original was sent back to them for diagnoses and only if we sent them £170 for the same. I took them 6 months and a lot of effort to eventually agree that the exchanger had a fault. (The fault occurred in December). I'm fortunate that I had the cash to get a new boiler in while all this bad business practice was going on. Many other people would not. Sometimes whingeing is a public service. |
New boiler - what to buy?
In message , Dave Baker
writes NoSpam wrote: A.Lee wrote: Dave Baker wrote: Lobster wrote: Vass wrote: Whats the boiler of choice at the moment? Suggest you try: http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html ...then come back with queries I think most people, myself included, would just like a definitive recommendation to a make or model rather than a general treatise on the ins and outs. The most important thing I suspect is which makes are most reliable. I still have no idea. I've been reading the 'Which Boiler' threads for the last 3 years or so, as I knew mine was going to need changing. The stock answer was/is Worcester/Bosch. Then someone (Geoff?) reported a lot of circuit board failures as they reached ~5 years old. In my quest for a boiler, I was doing a straight swap, combi for combi. So, did I go for the supposedly better quality offerings at £750, or the cheap one at £300? I went with the cheapy, £330 inc. flue from B+Q, a Heatline Viso (it then was reduced to £270ish for a few weeks, then went up to £399). My thinking was that the previous Alpha had cost £800ish 10 years ago, and had failed on 4 or 5 occasions, and was needing more repairs. At £330 for a new boiler, if it lasted me five years without breakdowns, it would be worth it. In the 4 months I have had it , it has been flawless. Certainly noisier that the old Alpha, and a poorer design, as it doesnt have space to hide the pipes behind the boiler, but, for the money, it is fine. Obviously if you need to pay someone to fit it, then you would have extra install costs, so it may not be such a bargain, but as I DIY, it is certainly cost effective for me. Alan. My Glow Worm 30Sxi just needed a new controller PCB after 3 years :( - just after I'd taken-out a BG service contract! I know it's old news and way too late for any of us to do anything about it but when you look at the reliability of modern boilers, the repair costs, the useful total life and compare to old traditional types like my Potterton which ran for over 20 years with only a new thermocouple every now and then you wonder how things have improved. Sure the new boilers are more gas efficient but can't we have both that and reliability? I think total ownership costs are higher now than they were with inefficient but reliable boilers. Why do PCBs fail so often? crap flow soldering - well known problems cheap components not safely spec'd bad design e.g. relays controlling fans not having a snubber to reduce contact wear due to arcing. There is, for example a particular Vaillant boiler which has a diode bridge in the loom between the pcb and the gas valve. If the bridge goes down, it blows a resistor on the (expensive) pcb ... and the next one .... and the next one, as there is no indication of this common failure in the manual or ... The Ideal Icos - if the fan stalls, it can take the pcb out The same with fans - the bearings are of much poorer quality than they used to be There can only be one conclusion one can draw, the manufacturers are out to make as much money as they can out of spares -- geoff |
New boiler - what to buy?
In message , Lobster
writes geoff wrote: In message , Robin writes Dave Baker wrote: Lobster wrote: Vass wrote: Whats the boiler of choice at the moment? Suggest you try: http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html ...then come back with queries David I think most people, myself included, would just like a definitive recommendation to a make or model rather than a general treatise on the ins and outs. The most important thing I suspect is which makes are most reliable. I still have no idea. I can give you a definitive recommendation on who to avoid: Ideal Boilers We had one. After 5 years it broke a week before christmas (~2003). We ended up in a dispute between Ideal and British Gas (the installer) about who's fault it was. At one stage they (Ideal) threaten to take us to court. I wrote several letters to their MD. etc. I could post more details but it's a long sorry tale that I have thankfully mostly forgotten. I am simply left with a reflex... if any ever asks about boilers - tell them to avoid Ideal. So, on a statistical spread of one, and no experience of anything else ... excuse me if I don't take your whingeing seriously Mm. I've have an Ideal boiler fitted in a rented-out property for about 4-5 years and it's been brilliant; given me no trouble at all. So I guess I'd unhesitatingly reccommend Ideal to anyone. I think that if you asked anyone who has an Ideal Icos, they might strongly disagree with you -- geoff |
New boiler - what to buy?
On Wed, 21 Jan 2009 23:10:24 +0000, Colin Wilson wrote:
Funnily enough, the PCB on our Worcester Bosch has had to be replaced either two or three times now, along with pretty much everything else electrical in it (fan, transformer and so on) The PCB on the WB is also a POS that is designed to break if the fan goes - no damage limitation devices such as (gasp) a fuse. Which model is that? -- John Stumbles -- http://yaph.co.uk Extreme moderate |
New boiler - what to buy?
On Wed, 21 Jan 2009 23:17:11 +0000, geoff wrote:
In message , A.Lee writes The stock answer was/is Worcester/Bosch. Then someone (Geoff?) reported a lot of circuit board failures as they reached ~5 years old. Yeah, pcbs AND fans the 24i and 28i are in the premier division for both I take it you mean the old standard efficiency models? Are the PCB faults generally that pin on the fan relay breaking away from the track? I'm getting quite glad I carry a soldering iron on the van, between those and Profile PCBs :-) -- John Stumbles -- http://yaph.co.uk I've got nothing against racists - I just wouldn't want my daughter to marry one |
New boiler - what to buy?
On Thu, 22 Jan 2009 02:13:31 +0000, Dave Baker wrote:
I know it's old news and way too late for any of us to do anything about it but when you look at the reliability of modern boilers, the repair costs, the useful total life and compare to old traditional types like my Potterton which ran for over 20 years with only a new thermocouple every now and then you wonder how things have improved. That's like saying why can't modern cars be as reliable as the old Moggie 1000s and so on that are still pottering on. Nowadays we only see the /reliable/ older cars: where are the Marinas, 1100/1300/1800s, Scavengers, name-just-about-any-Ford-rustbuckets, etc? I'm sure there are models of boiler from 20 years ago which were so crap they're practically extinct by now. -- John Stumbles -- http://yaph.co.uk Xenophobia? Sounds a bit foreign to me. |
New boiler - what to buy?
"YAPH" wrote in message ... On Thu, 22 Jan 2009 02:13:31 +0000, Dave Baker wrote: I know it's old news and way too late for any of us to do anything about it but when you look at the reliability of modern boilers, the repair costs, the useful total life and compare to old traditional types like my Potterton which ran for over 20 years with only a new thermocouple every now and then you wonder how things have improved. That's like saying why can't modern cars be as reliable as the old Moggie 1000s and so on that are still pottering on. Nowadays we only see the /reliable/ older cars: where are the Marinas, 1100/1300/1800s, Scavengers, name-just-about-any-Ford-rustbuckets, etc? I'm sure there are models of boiler from 20 years ago which were so crap they're practically extinct by now. The Glow Worm Majorca with the McLaren gas valve for one. Most Vulcans. Most cast iron sectioned boilers that ended up leaking at the seals. The Chaffataux boiler with no electrics and a pressure operated valve like a multi-point to bring the burner in. Many Glow Worm Fuelsavers. All the early Vaillant combis. Boy there was some dross out there. |
New boiler - what to buy?
"David" wrote in message ... On 21 Jan, 15:58, "Vass" wrote: New rads and pipes installed last year to an ageing Wicks boiler Would like to put in a new one either in same position or garage (directly below) Whats the boiler of choice at the moment? 1960's Semi, 3 bed. TIA -- Vass Hi, We had a Vaillant ecoTEC+ 937 fitted in October, it's been brilliant far, it's very quiet and the hot water performance is excellent. Very expensive for what it is, massive on the wall and poor flowrated one the 15 litre is empty. |
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