On 2008-06-22 15:36:46 +0100, Roland Perry said:

In message , at 01:12:57 on
Sun, 22 Jun 2008, The Natural Philosopher remarked:
That's more a symptom of a bad dentist.

It takes a great deal of time to do a root canal treatment properly.
This should not be governed by time and cost but by doing a proper job.
Like I said, if the treatment isn't done properly, that's a bad dentist.

And if it is, under the NHS, its a very *poor* one. (financially)

It's all about expectations. One of my local NHS dentists (not the one
I use) seems to employ mainly newly qualified dentists from Eastern
Europe. I have not heard complaints about their work from people using
them.

That's the first step. The next one will be putitng people on flights
to Warsaw for treatment.

On 2008-06-22 15:39:51 +0100, Roland Perry said:

In message 485d8c5f@qaanaaq, at 00:18:55 on Sun, 22 Jun 2008, Andy
Hall remarked:
If they stick to the Porsche and 5-bed executive house lifestyle that
dentists were accustomed to in the 70's, viability is certainly an
issue.

Please explain to me why a dentist should take a reduction in lifestyle
because the NHS is unable to run its affairs properly.

Because his expectations were too high.

Too high for who? You because you don't want to pay the market price?

On 2008-06-22 15:47:03 +0100, Roland Perry said:

In message op.uc4eakmlpmo3dt@lucy, at 23:33:46 on Sat, 21 Jun 2008,
Duncan Wood remarked:
Actually most of the people I've worked worked with in permanent
employment over the years have had some kind of overtime renumeration.

My experience is totally the reverse.

Clearly you move in the wrong circles...

On 2008-06-22 15:49:18 +0100, Roland Perry said:

In message 485d8e78@qaanaaq, at 00:27:52 on Sun, 22 Jun 2008, Andy
Hall remarked:
So realise your passport needs renewing before it's too late, and post
it! Also, London may not be your nearest office. Mine is probably
still the Peterborough one, only an hour away.

Sorry. That doesn't work if the passport is needed for a trip
somewhere each week.

If you are so disorganised that you have a trip to do and didn't
realise your passport had expired...

The point is that the renewal time for a passport by post can be
several weeks. During that time, it would not be possible to leave
the UK. For me that's not workable, so the passport has to be
renewed in a day or two max. That can only be done by someone visiting
the office. I don't have time to spend on that and even less
inclination.

On 2008-06-22 15:50:38 +0100, Roland Perry said:

In message 485d8ed6@qaanaaq, at 00:29:26 on Sun, 22 Jun 2008, Andy
Hall remarked:
Meantime, I can spend my time doing something more gainful.

Like checking what other documentation is about to expire without you
having realised?

You're completely missing the point. Of course I know when the
documents are going to expire. The issue is the lack of performance
of civil servants in not being able to turn around a passport renewal
guaranteed in 2 days without a visit to one of their offices.
Ideally, I would like to identify who is responsible for this and
arrange a P45 for them. Practically, I will pay someone to do the
queuing.

On 2008-06-22 15:53:46 +0100, Roland Perry said:

In message 485d8fba@qaanaaq, at 00:33:14 on Sun, 22 Jun 2008, Andy
Hall remarked:

There's nothing exotic about having some guy in a van showing up to
collect, any more than it is for them to deliver.

But it's cash-expensive, and the defective supplier should be paying,
not the customer.

Of course.

On 2008-06-22 15:54:29 +0100, Roland Perry said:

In message 485d8fff@qaanaaq, at 00:34:23 on Sun, 22 Jun 2008, Andy
Hall remarked:
Some people used "carbon copy" check-books in order to keep a copy
(rather than just having a counterfoil). I expect those cost more.

Did they write with quill pens?

Of course not. This xenophobia is most unbecoming you know.

Disconnected thinking. This has nothing to do with location,
everything to do with mindset.

On 2008-06-22 15:57:01 +0100, Roland Perry said:

In message 485c35fe@qaanaaq, at 23:58:06 on Fri, 20 Jun 2008, Andy
Hall remarked:

If it's the best place to buy a particular thing, then the pain is a
necessary element.

Fine, but then don't complain about the pain.

I have no complaints, as long as people stick to what they promise.

Ah well, my prime value - do what you say you will do.

There's no compulsion to say you'll ship within (say) 2 working days,
if in fact you only ship once a week.

So do what you promise.




... and like in all marketplaces there is the good and the bad. If
you want to play then you take the rough with the smooth.

Of course, but it's not as universally rough as you seem to like to think.

I run with very high standards in terms of delivering on my promises.
It gives me an expectation that others will do the same.



It's an unregulated E Commerce organisation. That's all.
It's regulated in many ways, although lots of folk don't realise it.
All the more foolish for not understanding the rules of the game.
So you admit it's regulated, then?

largely self regulated, which is tantamount to no regulation.

Still completely wrong.

Yes it is.

In article 485d8aa0@qaanaaq,
Andy Hall writes:

We already do. £7 for a prescription item is already £7 more than the
socialist promise of the 1940s. Some brave new world.......

I went into Boots with a private prescription with 3 items on it.
Pharmacist warned me I would have to pay full cost, before vanishing
around the back. Full cost was £5 for the lot.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
.. .

I went into Boots with a private prescription with 3 items on it.
Pharmacist warned me I would have to pay full cost, before vanishing
around the back. Full cost was £5 for the lot.

The doctors don't always know either. A private doctor once suggested he
write to my GP and get my GP to issue the prescription, thus saving me
having to pay the full cost of the drugs. I couldn't be bothered with that,
and got him to write a private prescription. The cost was considerably less
than the NHS charge.

--
Tim Ward - posting as an individual unless otherwise clear
Brett Ward Limited - www.brettward.co.uk
Cambridge Accommodation Notice Board - www.brettward.co.uk/canb
Cambridge City Councillor

In article 485e81cb@qaanaaq,
Andy Hall writes:
That's the first step. The next one will be putitng people on flights
to Warsaw for treatment.

My sister-in-law does that. Being Polish helps, but she claims
better private treatment out there for very much less money.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On Sun, 22 Jun 2008 17:40:11 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:

They don't consider that
they are overcharging for what they do, and clearly their patients
don't either.

Why is it clear? If you have only two choices, pay through the nose or
don't have dental treatment, either you're not a discontented patient
by virtue of not being a patient at all, or you have to pay through
the nose whether you think it's exorbitant or not. How are you so sure
the patients are happy with the charges just because they're paying
them?

Linda ff

The message 485e8469@qaanaaq
from Andy Hall contains these words:

You're completely missing the point. Of course I know when the
documents are going to expire. The issue is the lack of performance
of civil servants in not being able to turn around a passport renewal
guaranteed in 2 days without a visit to one of their offices.
Ideally, I would like to identify who is responsible for this and
arrange a P45 for them.

Currently that would be Gordon Brown then. The civil servants who
actually do the work are paid peanuts so why on earth do you expect
anything other than monkeys?

--
Roger Chapman

The message 485e81f4@qaanaaq
from Andy Hall contains these words:

Please explain to me why a dentist should take a reduction in lifestyle
because the NHS is unable to run its affairs properly.

Because his expectations were too high.

Too high for who? You because you don't want to pay the market price?

The market price is whatever people are prepared to pay. Take the NHS
out of dentistry and some dentists will either have to reduce their fees
to well below that which private dentists currently charge or lose the
trade entirely. Those of us who are on low incomes won't pay for
expensive dental work unless we absolutely have to and the feckless and
improvident will never have the money to pay for expensive dental work
in the first place. Won't go down very well with Browns preferred
constituency of "hardworking families" who expect to get their
children's dental work for free (or indeed all of it for free) but then
I never have understood how Brown manages to include the shirking class
within "hard working families".

--
Roger Chapman

"Roger" wrote in message
k...
The message 485e8469@qaanaaq
from Andy Hall contains these words:

You're completely missing the point. Of course I know when the
documents are going to expire. The issue is the lack of performance
of civil servants in not being able to turn around a passport renewal
guaranteed in 2 days without a visit to one of their offices.
Ideally, I would like to identify who is responsible for this and
arrange a P45 for them.

Currently that would be Gordon Brown then. The civil servants who
actually do the work are paid peanuts so why on earth do you expect
anything other than monkeys?

As the task is now contracted out to an "agency", they aren't civil servants
any more and GB (or any other Minister) has no day to day control of what
they do. Presumably they do get "targets", but these are unlikely to be
audited more frequently that every few years.

tim

On 2008-06-22 16:02:46 +0100, Roland Perry said:

In message 485c393a@qaanaaq, at 00:11:54 on Sat, 21 Jun 2008, Andy
Hall remarked:
On 2008-06-20 22:56:21 +0100, Roland Perry said:
But we are dealing with a clueless organisation, or they wouldn't have
lost the money (misallocated it) in the first place.

Of course.

They have no incentive to try to work it pout unless you can bash them
over the head with something concrete like a cheque stub or bank
statement.

A cheque stub has zero value. I can write a cheque and it's stub (I
can just about remember how) and drop the cheque in the shredder. It
is not a proof of payment or of allocation of funds.

Although people do seem to believe that a cheque stub in an apparently
consistent sequence does shift the burden of proof back onto them


Do they believe in fairiesas well?




I am certainly not going to provide a copy of bank statements to local
authority bureaucrats. It isn't their business how I spend my money.

Wrong bee in your bonnet. You show them (not give them) an extract that
demonstrates when the cheque cleared. That means the burden of proof is
back in their court, and that the cheque did exist, and was not lost in
transit.

The statement or a letter from the bank confirms transfer of the funds.



You still have a bank manger. I'm truly impressed.

I do. Very good he is as well.



A letter like that might impress the court, or they might just dismiss
it as hearsay.

The bank can demonstrate transfer of funds. That is all that's required.






The exposure of local government incompetence is a worthwhile
contribution to the community.

I can agree 100% with that.

Roland Perry wrote:

In message op.uc4cztq00v1caa@thedell, at 23:05:43 on Sat, 21 Jun 2008,
Brian L Johnson remarked:
Roland Perry wrote:

In message op.uc3y5tjn0v1caa@thedell, at 18:06:55 on Sat, 21 Jun
2008, Brian L Johnson remarked:
My lunchtime activities were restricted to The Printing Club.

We had a printing club too, and I was member. We used to print school
magazines, programmes for concerts, and lots of posters. Everything
set in lead (or wood for the bigger stuff).

Oh, the old grey cells are fading... what was the name of that press?

The machines, rather than the "brand" for in-house production?

The machines. It had a name... we called it the...

sigh

The little hand ones were usually made by Elana or someone, but the
big treadle-powered ones (we didn't have the electric motor
attachment) were called... sigh No. It's gone.

I don't remember.

Bob got the name: Adana. Yes, they were the ones on the table toble. You
took the handle and slammed it down to clamp the jaws together. Well, not
slammed -- 'applied definite and sudden pressure'. g

But I vividly remember pedalling like crazy

Yes, that's the sort of thing.

Ours had 2 1ft diameter wheels on the right-hand side -- one fixed and one
freewheeling. When you applied the brake, it also shifted a fork to slide
a belt (which we didn't have) from the fixed driving wheel to freewheeling
one. And, yes, now that I remember it, the brake was actually a friction
shoe on the 4 ft cast-iron flywheel on the left hand side.

A circular plate up top which ratchetted round a small amount every
cycle. Ink would be squeezed and spread out onto it and the 3 rollers
would whip over the inky-plate, rattle down across the type frame, zip
back up onto the rotated ink wheel just as the jaws closed to press paper
to inky plate.

In fact, it looked pretty much like this:

http://justcoffee.coop/files/images/...ss.preview.jpg

That looks to be a slightly stripped-down version of the one we used. No
fixed- and fly-wheels on the right-hand side, no separate ink-spreading
roller, no pressure release lever just in front of the handbrake lever,
and I'm sure ours was slightly wider at the base.

Eee! Memories I haven't dusted off for years!

--
-blj-

On 2008-06-22 22:55:51 +0100, Linda Fox said:

On Sun, 22 Jun 2008 17:40:11 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:

They don't consider that
they are overcharging for what they do, and clearly their patients
don't either.

Why is it clear? If you have only two choices, pay through the nose or
don't have dental treatment, either you're not a discontented patient
by virtue of not being a patient at all, or you have to pay through
the nose whether you think it's exorbitant or not. How are you so sure
the patients are happy with the charges just because they're paying
them?



1) Because if they were *that* unhappy, they wouldn't pay.

2) Because if they really were too high the market would open for price
competition.

On 2008-06-22 20:30:02 +0100, (Andrew
Gabriel) said:

In article 485d8aa0@qaanaaq,
Andy Hall writes:

We already do. £7 for a prescription item is already £7 more than the
socialist promise of the 1940s. Some brave new world.......

I went into Boots with a private prescription with 3 items on it.
Pharmacist warned me I would have to pay full cost, before vanishing
around the back. Full cost was £5 for the lot.

One can find the NHS buy prices for quite a lot of the common drugs.
Periodically, one PCT or another publishes figures on a web site that
is publicly visible.

On 2008-06-22 21:15:04 +0100, (Andrew
Gabriel) said:

In article 485e81cb@qaanaaq,
Andy Hall writes:
That's the first step. The next one will be putitng people on flights
to Warsaw for treatment.

My sister-in-law does that. Being Polish helps, but she claims
better private treatment out there for very much less money.

... and only a 2hr flight from London.


Provided that you don't mind Pierogi, Warsaw is OK.....

On 2008-06-22 22:59:28 +0100, Roger said:

The message 485e81f4@qaanaaq
from Andy Hall contains these words:

Please explain to me why a dentist should take a reduction in lifestyle
because the NHS is unable to run its affairs properly.

Because his expectations were too high.

Too high for who? You because you don't want to pay the market price?

The market price is whatever people are prepared to pay. Take the NHS
out of dentistry and some dentists will either have to reduce their fees
to well below that which private dentists currently charge or lose the
trade entirely. Those of us who are on low incomes won't pay for
expensive dental work unless we absolutely have to and the feckless and
improvident will never have the money to pay for expensive dental work
in the first place.

Some private dentists will do dental work for kids funded by the NHS as
long as the parents consult privately.

One could also run the argument that if people are not willing to
prioritise their healthcare by lifestyle and financially, then why
should the state be a backstop. For example, in general in Germany,
a dentist won't see a patient in the state scheme if they are not seing
the hygienist as well.




Won't go down very well with Browns preferred
constituency of "hardworking families" who expect to get their
children's dental work for free (or indeed all of it for free) but then
I never have understood how Brown manages to include the shirking class
within "hard working families".

That's because he's confused about most things.

On 2008-06-22 22:58:27 +0100, Roger said:

The message 485e8469@qaanaaq
from Andy Hall contains these words:

You're completely missing the point. Of course I know when the
documents are going to expire. The issue is the lack of performance
of civil servants in not being able to turn around a passport renewal
guaranteed in 2 days without a visit to one of their offices.
Ideally, I would like to identify who is responsible for this and
arrange a P45 for them.

Currently that would be Gordon Brown then. The civil servants who
actually do the work are paid peanuts so why on earth do you expect
anything other than monkeys?

Unfortunately true. However, it is not reall justifiable to have 40%
of the workforce in the public sector and not producing wealth. The
numbers need to reduced, the salaries raised, and favourable pensions
and job security removed.

However, were that to happen, I'm not sure where the monkeys would go.

On Sun, 22 Jun 2008 23:39:25 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:

On 2008-06-22 22:55:51 +0100, Linda Fox said:

On Sun, 22 Jun 2008 17:40:11 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:

They don't consider that
they are overcharging for what they do, and clearly their patients
don't either.

Why is it clear? If you have only two choices, pay through the nose or
don't have dental treatment, either you're not a discontented patient
by virtue of not being a patient at all, or you have to pay through
the nose whether you think it's exorbitant or not. How are you so sure
the patients are happy with the charges just because they're paying
them?



1) Because if they were *that* unhappy, they wouldn't pay.

They wouldn't "not pay", they'd not have the treatment at all. how can
you tell how many people have stopped? Besides which, what do you mean
by "that" unhappy? If you value your teeth but you think the price is
too high, which do you do, pay up and not like it, or go without and
not like it? Sorry, but despite what you say, you can't tell.

Linda ff

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-06-22 15:49:18 +0100, Roland Perry said:

In message 485d8e78@qaanaaq, at 00:27:52 on Sun, 22 Jun 2008, Andy
Hall remarked:
So realise your passport needs renewing before it's too late, and
post it! Also, London may not be your nearest office. Mine is
probably still the Peterborough one, only an hour away.

Sorry. That doesn't work if the passport is needed for a trip
somewhere each week.

If you are so disorganised that you have a trip to do and didn't
realise your passport had expired...

The point is that the renewal time for a passport by post can be several
weeks. During that time, it would not be possible to leave the UK.
For me that's not workable, so the passport has to be renewed in a day
or two max. That can only be done by someone visiting the office. I
don't have time to spend on that and even less inclination.




Mine took several days, three to be exact, all done by post. Anyway as
it's only renewed every 10 years, unless you are filling up the pages
with visa stamps, quite difficult to do in this era of the EU, surely
you can organise your life to take this once in 10 yearly event.

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 23:15:19 on
Fri, 20 Jun 2008, The Natural Philosopher remarked:
eBay's also very good for finding "obsolete" spares, something I
would have thought you would appreciate (in both sense of the word).
There are people selling stuff that I've never seen in any outlet,
either online or offline.

It WAS, Roland It isn't now. That's the problem.

Because you have to go through all the Paypal rigmarole to sell.

So you are saying it's harder to find things now?

I was at a party and discussing this, about 3 out of 4 of the people who
had sold things and/or wanted to sell things said they wouldn't bother
again solely due to this new rule... so yes things will become thin on
the ground.

On 2008-06-23 00:38:54 +0100, Linda Fox said:

On Sun, 22 Jun 2008 23:39:25 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:

On 2008-06-22 22:55:51 +0100, Linda Fox said:

On Sun, 22 Jun 2008 17:40:11 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:

They don't consider that
they are overcharging for what they do, and clearly their patients
don't either.

Why is it clear? If you have only two choices, pay through the nose or
don't have dental treatment, either you're not a discontented patient
by virtue of not being a patient at all, or you have to pay through
the nose whether you think it's exorbitant or not. How are you so sure
the patients are happy with the charges just because they're paying
them?



1) Because if they were *that* unhappy, they wouldn't pay.

They wouldn't "not pay", they'd not have the treatment at all. how can
you tell how many people have stopped? Besides which, what do you mean
by "that" unhappy? If you value your teeth but you think the price is
too high, which do you do, pay up and not like it, or go without and
not like it? Sorry, but despite what you say, you can't tell.

Linda ff

Everybody has their price levels and their priorities.

It really depends on your life philosophy I suppose. Some people
are happy to fork over their taxes and forget about it and take what
they are given by the state, believing that it's free and that they
should be grateful for what they get. The state has become very good
at marketing this notion in the last few years and seemingly has a lot
of compliant customers.

The other philosophy is to take control of one's own destiny and not to
rely on the state. It's a steep and narrow path. However, once on
it, one realises what a scam socialised medicine as operated in the UK
really is. Part of that philosophy is that you do value health,
including teeth. It's the same principle as with education. I went
without a lot in order to fund a proper education for my children, for
example.

I can't think of anything more important than healthcare, and there is
only one person who I trust with that - me. The state is the last
organisation that I would trust with it. I trust some doctors and
consultants a bit but not unquestioningly.

So to answer your question, there are two types of people who will go
to a private dentist:

- Those with sufficient funds that the fees are not that noticable

- Those who are willing to forego other things because they believe
that dental treatment is more important.

There are three groups outside of that who won't:

- Those who literally don't have the money

- Those who prioritise other things over their teeth

- Those who misguidedly believe that the state should provide.

"magwitch" wrote in message
...

Mine took several days, three to be exact, all done by post. Anyway as
it's only renewed every 10 years, unless you are filling up the pages with
visa stamps, quite difficult to do in this era of the EU, surely you can
organise your life to take this once in 10 yearly event.

To be fair, AH does say he spends most weeks flying around on business, so
for him the posh solution is probably appropriate, once every ten years. The
system works quite well - slowish for us proles who don't actually need it
in a hurry due to forward planning, a panic option for people who get it
wrong, and an expensive option for the very few people who really need it.

cheers,
clive

On 2008-06-23 00:41:15 +0100, magwitch said:

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-06-22 15:49:18 +0100, Roland Perry said:

In message 485d8e78@qaanaaq, at 00:27:52 on Sun, 22 Jun 2008, Andy
Hall remarked:
So realise your passport needs renewing before it's too late, and post
it! Also, London may not be your nearest office. Mine is probably
still the Peterborough one, only an hour away.

Sorry. That doesn't work if the passport is needed for a trip
somewhere each week.

If you are so disorganised that you have a trip to do and didn't
realise your passport had expired...

The point is that the renewal time for a passport by post can be
several weeks. During that time, it would not be possible to leave
the UK. For me that's not workable, so the passport has to be
renewed in a day or two max. That can only be done by someone visiting
the office. I don't have time to spend on that and even less
inclination.




Mine took several days, three to be exact, all done by post.

I literally can't be without a passport for more than one day or
possibly two. I certainly can't work with some variable unknown
timescale.


Anyway as it's only renewed every 10 years, unless you are filling up
the pages with visa stamps, quite difficult to do in this era of the
EU, surely you can organise your life to take this once in 10 yearly
event.

I manage to get a passport full of visas and other stamps in a couple
of years, because I travel to places beyond the EU as we as within it.

This is not a question of being organised but of practicality.

On 2008-06-23 01:00:26 +0100, "Clive George" said:

"magwitch" wrote in message
...

Mine took several days, three to be exact, all done by post. Anyway as
it's only renewed every 10 years, unless you are filling up the pages
with visa stamps, quite difficult to do in this era of the EU, surely
you can organise your life to take this once in 10 yearly event.

To be fair, AH does say he spends most weeks flying around on business,
so for him the posh solution is probably appropriate, once every ten
years. The system works quite well - slowish for us proles who don't
actually need it in a hurry due to forward planning, a panic option for
people who get it wrong, and an expensive option for the very few
people who really need it.

cheers,
clive

That was my exact point, although it comes around more frequently than
every ten years. The pages fill up quite quickly with visas and
entry/exit stamps.

The message
from "tim....." contains these words:

You're completely missing the point. Of course I know when the
documents are going to expire. The issue is the lack of performance
of civil servants in not being able to turn around a passport renewal
guaranteed in 2 days without a visit to one of their offices.
Ideally, I would like to identify who is responsible for this and
arrange a P45 for them.

Currently that would be Gordon Brown then. The civil servants who
actually do the work are paid peanuts so why on earth do you expect
anything other than monkeys?

As the task is now contracted out to an "agency", they aren't civil
servants
any more and GB (or any other Minister) has no day to day control of what
they do. Presumably they do get "targets", but these are unlikely to be
audited more frequently that every few years.

I think you will find that government agencies are (mostly at least)
merely an arse covering device to prevent ministers being held
accountable for the actions of said agencies even though they are still
ultimately responsible for those actions. The workers are still civil
servants.

If you know different let me know which particular agencies you have in mind.

--
Roger Chapman

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-06-22 20:30:02 +0100, (Andrew
Gabriel) said:

In article 485d8aa0@qaanaaq,
Andy Hall writes:

We already do. £7 for a prescription item is already £7 more than the
socialist promise of the 1940s. Some brave new world.......

I went into Boots with a private prescription with 3 items on it.
Pharmacist warned me I would have to pay full cost, before vanishing
around the back. Full cost was £5 for the lot.

One can find the NHS buy prices for quite a lot of the common drugs.
Periodically, one PCT or another publishes figures on a web site that is
publicly visible.

If you visit:

http://www.bnf.org/bnf/

(which requires registration - but is free)

you can see some pricing information on most NHS-supplied medicines.
This is intended to provide information about relative costs rather than
absolute prices.

I have not gone through counting how many are significantly more (or
less) costly than the prescription charge!

"Prices

Prices have been calculated from the basic cost used in pricing NHS
prescriptions dispensed in November 2007, see also Prices
http://www.bnf.org/bnf/bnf/55/71362.htm for details."

Example:

"Liothyronine sodium (Goldshield) Prescription-only medicine
Tablets, scored, liothyronine sodium 20 micrograms, net price 28-tab
pack = £9.15"

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

"Tim Ward" wrote in message
...
"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
.. .

I went into Boots with a private prescription with 3 items on it.
Pharmacist warned me I would have to pay full cost, before vanishing
around the back. Full cost was £5 for the lot.

The doctors don't always know either.

They can find out easily by looking in BNF. Bu why should they?

Mary

in 126736 20080622 154703 Roland Perry wrote:
In message op.uc4eakmlpmo3dt@lucy, at 23:33:46 on Sat, 21 Jun 2008,
Duncan Wood remarked:
Actually most of the people I've worked worked with in permanent
employment over the years have had some kind of overtime renumeration.

My experience is totally the reverse.
--
Roland Perry

Usually depends on level. The multi-national I worked for paid overtime up to a
certain level and nothing above it. Had the effect that I (above the level) had a lower
take-home pay than junior colleagues for the same number of hours.

Roger wrote:
The message
from "tim....." contains these words:

You're completely missing the point. Of course I know when the
documents are going to expire. The issue is the lack of performance
of civil servants in not being able to turn around a passport renewal
guaranteed in 2 days without a visit to one of their offices.
Ideally, I would like to identify who is responsible for this and
arrange a P45 for them.
Currently that would be Gordon Brown then. The civil servants who
actually do the work are paid peanuts so why on earth do you expect
anything other than monkeys?

As the task is now contracted out to an "agency", they aren't civil
servants
any more and GB (or any other Minister) has no day to day control of what
they do. Presumably they do get "targets", but these are unlikely to be
audited more frequently that every few years.

I think you will find that government agencies are (mostly at least)
merely an arse covering device to prevent ministers being held
accountable for the actions of said agencies even though they are still
ultimately responsible for those actions. The workers are still civil
servants.

If you know different let me know which particular agencies you have in mind.

Civil Servants work in 'crown' departments. Agency staff are Public
Servants. The Civil Service Staff Code does not apply, the Civil Service
Commissioners don't supervise the recruitment and selection and several
things are different.

I have direct experience of two agencies, The Central Police Training
and Development Agency and the East of England Development Agency. These
are both NDPBs. There are some agencies that are still within the
department such as the UK Borders Agency and their employees are still
Civil Servants. The way to spot the difference is to see how they were
created. 'Proper' agencies require legislation to create them, whereas
the 'internal' ones are just organisational.

On Mon, 23 Jun 2008 00:57:07 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:

So to answer your question, there are two types of people who will go
to a private dentist:

- Those with sufficient funds that the fees are not that noticable

- Those who are willing to forego other things because they believe
that dental treatment is more important.

I would guess that you have simply no idea how many people haven't
much else left to forego. You'll probably say in a different context
that the same people could afford private education if they chose to
sacrifice some things. And private health insurance. First thing
mentioned is "expensive foreign holidays". Andy, where I teach, half
the families can't afford _any_ holiday apart from maybe a few days
staying with relatives.

There are three groups outside of that who won't:

- Those who literally don't have the money

Of whom there are more than you like to think

- Those who prioritise other things over their teeth

Not all other priorities are reprehensible. Even second-level things
after the biggies like education. Who wants to say to a child "sorry,
you can't go on that school day trip because I've got to have a tooth
crowned"?

- Those who misguidedly believe that the state should provide.

But the state doesn't "provide": it uses our contributions to fund it.

I've never been to a private dentist; I'm still with the NHS, and my
dentist often gives me alternatives, some of which are private and
some can be done on the NHS. The private alternatives, when it boils
down to it, are pretty well always the better cosmetic alternative,
which I don't consider I need.

Linda ff

On 2008-06-23 09:40:52 +0100, Bob Martin said:

in 126736 20080622 154703 Roland Perry wrote:
In message op.uc4eakmlpmo3dt@lucy, at 23:33:46 on Sat, 21 Jun 2008,
Duncan Wood remarked:
Actually most of the people I've worked worked with in permanent
employment over the years have had some kind of overtime renumeration.

My experience is totally the reverse.
--
Roland Perry

Usually depends on level. The multi-national I worked for paid
overtime up to a
certain level and nothing above it. Had the effect that I (above the
level) had a lower
take-home pay than junior colleagues for the same number of hours.

On a higher level, or an environment where one is self managed,
outcomes rather than hours worked are or should be measured (actually
it should be like that for other areas too).

On 2008-06-23 09:40:52 +0100, Bob Martin said:

in 126736 20080622 154703 Roland Perry wrote:
In message op.uc4eakmlpmo3dt@lucy, at 23:33:46 on Sat, 21 Jun 2008,
Duncan Wood remarked:
Actually most of the people I've worked worked with in permanent
employment over the years have had some kind of overtime renumeration.

My experience is totally the reverse.
--
Roland Perry

Usually depends on level. The multi-national I worked for paid
overtime up to a
certain level and nothing above it. Had the effect that I (above the
level) had a lower
take-home pay than junior colleagues for the same number of hours.

On a higher level, or an environment where one is self managed,
outcomes rather than hours worked are or should be measured (actually
it should be like that for other areas too).

"Andy Hall" wrote in message news:485d8aa0@qaanaaq...

Have you tried claiming from a UK insurer?

Yes, many times and never had any problem at all.

In the end, if a dentist believes he/she can make more money by working
privately, then he will most likely do so and abandon NHS work.
Why should he be expected to take a cut in available income in order to do
NHS work? If the NHS doesn't pay enough, it will very soon have no
dentists (or, at least, only ideologically-motivated ones).

Chris

"Tim Ward" wrote in message
...
"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message op.uc27d0gc0v1caa@thedell, at 08:07:02 on Sat, 21 Jun 2008,
Brian L Johnson remarked:
Can anyone join in? I think I'm coming up to 40 years of computer work
now, although there have been gaps. I did much more at school than when
I was at University, for example.

Gosh! I did absolutely no computer work at school.

It wasn't on the syllabus, but we had a very active "club" that met at
lunchtime and after school. Programs were hand-punched onto cards, which
I dropped off (the whole club's efforts) at the Technical College on my
way home, picking up the previous day's output.

We had a LACE MK II valve analog computer, given to us by the guided
missile division at Filton as they had acquired more modern kit. Quite a
lot of it worked, particularly after we'd fiddled with it a bit, although
we never got much sense out of the multiplier. (We had two of them, one to
use and one to cannibalise.)

They were wonderful things. My father managed to obtain a surplus one from
the
Electronics Lab at Oxford and I did my AO-Level Electronics project on it.
I'm
not sure the teacher understood any of it!

Chirs

"Brian L Johnson" wrote in message
newsp.uc584ugy0v1caa@thedell...

Bob got the name: Adana. Yes, they were the ones on the table toble. You
took the handle and slammed it down to clamp the jaws together. Well, not
slammed -- 'applied definite and sudden pressure'. g

I remember those well.

We had one of these:

http://www.innovation3m.com/pics/Hberg1015Ink.jpg

Fantastic machine. Printed up to about 60 pages a minute I think. Also
fantastically
dangerous. The guard sticking out of the top protects the operator from the
"windmill"
arms which whirl round at high speed picking up a sheet of paper from the
stack
and whipping it between the jaws of the press while a second arm extracts
the
sheet just printed and puts it on the output stack.

Eee! Memories I haven't dusted off for years!

Me too. We used to spend hours having quad-chucking competitions across
the shop floor into an old coffee tin on top of a stack of typecases.

Chris