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UK diy (uk.d-i-y) For the discussion of all topics related to diy (do-it-yourself) in the UK. All levels of experience and proficency are welcome to join in to ask questions or offer solutions. |
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#1
Posted to uk.d-i-y,uk.people.consumers,sci.chem
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Oxygen Bleach
Can you still get 'oxygen bleach', and where from?
(This is a substance based on hydrogen peroxide, as opposed to the usual sodium hypochlorite). I've not seen it in the shops for a year or two, and a local janitorial supplier hasn't heard of it, although bleach tends not to be used for commercial cleaning IME. I need it for cleaning my flat (actually a Housing Association bedsit with shared laundry and bathroom), I don't use the normal stuff at home because if it gets onto clothes it damages them, but for a lot of cleaning jobs you can't beat bleach. I recently cured a bad smell in a cleaning cupboard at work, by getting some bleach from the nearby supermarket and putting it down the sink. Got all the stains out of the porcelain too, which the approved chemicals wouldn't shift. |
#2
Posted to uk.d-i-y,uk.people.consumers,sci.chem
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Oxygen Bleach
"alexander.keys1" wrote in message
oups.com... Can you still get 'oxygen bleach', and where from? (This is a substance based on hydrogen peroxide, as opposed to the usual sodium hypochlorite). Ask at the old bailey :-) cheers, clive |
#3
Posted to uk.d-i-y,uk.people.consumers,sci.chem
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Oxygen Bleach
On 13 Feb, 00:59, "Clive George" wrote:
"alexander.keys1" wrote in message oups.com... Can you still get 'oxygen bleach', and where from? (This is a substance based on hydrogen peroxide, as opposed to the usual sodium hypochlorite). Ask at the old bailey :-) cheers, clive Do you mean it was withdrawn from sale because it can be used to make explosives? I didn't know that. |
#4
Posted to uk.d-i-y,uk.people.consumers,sci.chem
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Oxygen Bleach
"alexander.keys1" wrote in message
oups.com... On 13 Feb, 00:59, "Clive George" wrote: "alexander.keys1" wrote in message oups.com... Can you still get 'oxygen bleach', and where from? (This is a substance based on hydrogen peroxide, as opposed to the usual sodium hypochlorite). Ask at the old bailey :-) cheers, clive Do you mean it was withdrawn from sale because it can be used to make explosives? I didn't know that. Sorry, no idea, I was just being silly. cheers, clive |
#5
Posted to uk.d-i-y,uk.people.consumers,sci.chem
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Oxygen Bleach
"alexander.keys1" wrote:
Can you still get 'oxygen bleach', and where from? (This is a substance based on hydrogen peroxide, as opposed to the usual sodium hypochlorite). I've not seen it in the shops for a year or two, and a local janitorial supplier hasn't heard of it, although bleach tends not to be used for commercial cleaning IME. I need it for cleaning my flat (actually a Housing Association bedsit with shared laundry and bathroom), I don't use the normal stuff at home because if it gets onto clothes it damages them, but for a lot of cleaning jobs you can't beat bleach. I recently cured a bad smell in a cleaning cupboard at work, by getting some bleach from the nearby supermarket and putting it down the sink. Got all the stains out of the porcelain too, which the approved chemicals wouldn't shift. Sodium percarbonate, sodium perborate. -- Uncle Al http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/ (Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals) http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/lajos.htm#a2 |
#6
Posted to uk.d-i-y,uk.people.consumers,sci.chem
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Oxygen Bleach
On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 00:59:27 -0000, "Clive George"
wrote: |!"alexander.keys1" wrote in message groups.com... |! Can you still get 'oxygen bleach', and where from? |! |! (This is a substance based on hydrogen peroxide, as opposed to the |! usual sodium hypochlorite). |! |!Ask at the old bailey :-) IIRC Hairdressing wholesalers. -- Dave Fawthrop dave hyphenologist co uk 20,000 free e-books at Project Gutenberg! http://www.gutenberg.org For Yorkshire Dialect go to www.hyphenologist.co.uk/songs/ http://www.gutenberg.org/author/John_Hartley http://www.gutenberg.org/author/F_W_Moorman |
#7
Posted to uk.d-i-y,uk.people.consumers,sci.chem
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Oxygen Bleach
alexander.keys1 wrote:
Can you still get 'oxygen bleach', and where from? (This is a substance based on hydrogen peroxide, as opposed to the usual sodium hypochlorite). I've not seen it in the shops for a year or two, and a local janitorial supplier hasn't heard of it, although bleach tends not to be used for commercial cleaning IME. ISTR that its been advertised on the telly, but I can't recall the name of the stuff (the power of advertising). Advert where family arrive back from hols and demonstator grabs dirty washing in middle of airport. Another ad features a market trader style demo. In a pink tub? Just found this; Cillit Bang Universal Power Cleaning Crystals http://www.cillitbang.co.uk/faq.shtml -- Dave The Medway Handyman www.medwayhandyman.co.uk 01634 717930 07850 597257 |
#8
Posted to uk.d-i-y,uk.people.consumers,sci.chem
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Oxygen Bleach
"alexander.keys1" wrote in message oups.com... Can you still get 'oxygen bleach', and where from? (This is a substance based on hydrogen peroxide, as opposed to the usual sodium hypochlorite). I've not seen it in the shops for a year or two, and a local janitorial supplier hasn't heard of it, although bleach tends not to be used for commercial cleaning IME. I need it for cleaning my flat (actually a Housing Association bedsit with shared laundry and bathroom), I don't use the normal stuff at home because if it gets onto clothes it damages them, but for a lot of cleaning jobs you can't beat bleach. I recently cured a bad smell in a cleaning cupboard at work, by getting some bleach from the nearby supermarket and putting it down the sink. Got all the stains out of the porcelain too, which the approved chemicals wouldn't shift. I've been looking out for oxygen bleach myself and wondering what's happened to it. I've not seen it for ages. It looks like it must've been withdrawn. |
#9
Posted to sci.chem,uk.d-i-y,uk.people.consumers
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Oxygen Bleach
On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 01:14:03 -0000, Clive George wrote:
Do you mean it was withdrawn from sale because it can be used to make explosives? I didn't know that. Sorry, no idea, I was just being silly. I wouldn't be surprised. Better take all the sugar off the supermarket shelves as well. -- Cheers Dave. pam is missing e-mail |
#10
Posted to uk.d-i-y,uk.people.consumers,sci.chem
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Oxygen Bleach
"Uncle Al" wrote in message ... [snip river of **** from Schwartzcyst] Schwartz: http://tinyurl.com/ck9r2 "Uncle ****wit" wrote in message ... Newtonian physics is infinite lightspeed (instantaneous knowledge of all aspects of a system), You ****in' ignorant, stoooopid, LYING *******! ROEMER,DOPPLER, MICHELSON, SAGNAC! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ole_R%C3%B8mer "Cassini had observed the moons of Jupiter between 1666 and 1668, and discovered discrepancies in his measurements that, at first, he attributed to light having a finite speed." http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonde...mx4dummies.htm http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonde...nac/Sagnac.htm http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonde...er/Doppler.htm Einstein: "we shall, however, find in what follows, that the velocity of light in our theory plays the part, physically, of an infinitely great velocity." http://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/einstein/specrel/www/ Get the **** out of the river of ****, you are the biggest TORD in it, you lying ****headed ****! Go and worship Nehemiah Scudder! **** OFF and DIE! This message is for *your* personal safety, brought to *you* by Dumbledore, the computer of Androcles, having passed my Turing Test using Uncle Phuckwit for a guinea pig. How is my driving? Call 1-800-555-1234 http://www.carmagneticsigns.co.uk/im...l/P_Plates.jpg Worn with pride. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L-plate |
#11
Posted to uk.d-i-y,uk.people.consumers,sci.chem
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Oxygen Bleach
On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 09:11:55 -0000, "RedOnRed" wrote:
I've been looking out for oxygen bleach myself and wondering what's happened to it. I've not seen it for ages. It looks like it must've been withdrawn. Reckitt obviously wasted all that money on Vanish OxyAction adverts. You can buy it in most supermarkets. -- Peter Parry. http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/ |
#12
Posted to uk.d-i-y,uk.people.consumers,sci.chem
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Oxygen Bleach
"milou" wrote in message ... On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 09:11:55 -0000, "RedOnRed" wrote: I've been looking out for oxygen bleach myself and wondering what's happened to it. I've not seen it for ages. It looks like it must've been withdrawn. How about typing "oxygen bleach" in google.co.uk and read the first reply ? Funnily enough i've already had the good sense to do that and it didn't return any products currently available in supermarkets. Perhaps you'd now like to teach my granny how to suck eggs? |
#13
Posted to uk.d-i-y,uk.people.consumers,sci.chem
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Oxygen Bleach
On 12 Feb 2007 16:50:19 -0800, "alexander.keys1"
wrote: Can you still get 'oxygen bleach', and where from? (This is a substance based on hydrogen peroxide, as opposed to the usual sodium hypochlorite). I've not seen it in the shops for a year or two, and a local janitorial supplier hasn't heard of it, although bleach tends not to be used for commercial cleaning IME. I need it for cleaning my flat (actually a Housing Association bedsit with shared laundry and bathroom), I don't use the normal stuff at home because if it gets onto clothes it damages them, but for a lot of cleaning jobs you can't beat bleach. I recently cured a bad smell in a cleaning cupboard at work, by getting some bleach from the nearby supermarket and putting it down the sink. Got all the stains out of the porcelain too, which the approved chemicals wouldn't shift. Hi, Try £ shops like 99p stores, or Wilko. cheers, Pete. |
#14
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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Oxygen Bleach
alexander.keys1 wrote:
Can you still get 'oxygen bleach', and where from? (This is a substance based on hydrogen peroxide, as opposed to the usual sodium hypochlorite). I've not seen it in the shops for a year or two, and a local janitorial supplier hasn't heard of it, although bleach tends not to be used for commercial cleaning IME. I need it for cleaning my flat (actually a Housing Association bedsit with shared laundry and bathroom), I don't use the normal stuff at home because if it gets onto clothes it damages them, but for a lot of cleaning jobs you can't beat bleach. I recently cured a bad smell in a cleaning cupboard at work, by getting some bleach from the nearby supermarket and putting it down the sink. Got all the stains out of the porcelain too, which the approved chemicals wouldn't shift. laundry bleach e.g. ace is a dilute form. -- Spamtrap in use To email replace 127.0.0.1 with btinternet dot com |
#15
Posted to uk.d-i-y,uk.people.consumers,sci.chem,uk.media.tv.misc
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Oxygen Bleach
On 13 Feb, 01:14, "Clive George" wrote:
"alexander.keys1" wrote in message oups.com... On 13 Feb, 00:59, "Clive George" wrote: "alexander.keys1" wrote in message groups.com... Can you still get 'oxygen bleach', and where from? (This is a substance based on hydrogen peroxide, as opposed to the usual sodium hypochlorite). Ask at the old bailey :-) cheers, clive Do you mean it was withdrawn from sale because it can be used to make explosives? I didn't know that. Sorry, no idea, I was just being silly. cheers, clive |
#16
Posted to uk.d-i-y,uk.people.consumers,sci.chem,uk.media.tv.misc
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Oxygen Bleach
alexander.keys1 said the following on 13/02/07 20:43:
On 13 Feb, 01:14, "Clive George" wrote: "alexander.keys1" wrote in message oups.com... On 13 Feb, 00:59, "Clive George" wrote: "alexander.keys1" wrote in message oups.com... Can you still get 'oxygen bleach', and where from? (This is a substance based on hydrogen peroxide, as opposed to the usual sodium hypochlorite). Ask at the old bailey :-) cheers, clive Do you mean it was withdrawn from sale because it can be used to make explosives? I didn't know that. Sorry, no idea, I was just being silly. cheers, clive There was a great kids book in the local library that mentioned that hydrogen peroxide mixed with manganese dioxide was what powered some WWII torpedoes. There was also a small projectile launcher experiment using the two same materials on the same page. Richard. -- "This week I have mostly been listening to - RVW's "A Sea Symphony" and lots of William Alwyn stuff. |
#17
Posted to uk.d-i-y,uk.people.consumers,sci.chem
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Oxygen Bleach
The message
from Owain contains these words: You mean I'm sitting here with my head wrapped in tinfoil and Domestos and in half an hour I'm not going to have those pop-star two-tone looks some website promised? Possibly, but at least the aliens and the CIA won't be able to control your thoughts in the meantime. -- Skipweasel We have always been at war with Iran. [George Orwell - almost] |
#18
Posted to uk.d-i-y,uk.people.consumers,sci.chem,uk.media.tv.misc
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Oxygen Bleach
The message
from Richard Brooks contains these words: There was a great kids book in the local library that mentioned that hydrogen peroxide mixed with manganese dioxide was what powered some WWII torpedoes. There was also a small projectile launcher experiment using the two same materials on the same page. It's also believed to have polished off the Kursk. -- Skipweasel We have always been at war with Iran. [George Orwell - almost] |
#19
Posted to uk.d-i-y,uk.people.consumers,sci.chem,uk.media.tv.misc
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Oxygen Bleach
On 13 Feb, 20:53, Richard Brooks richardbro...@vickers-
supermarine.com wrote: alexander.keys1 said the following on 13/02/07 20:43: On 13 Feb, 01:14, "Clive George" wrote: "alexander.keys1" wrote in message groups.com... On 13 Feb, 00:59, "Clive George" wrote: "alexander.keys1" wrote in message legroups.com... Can you still get 'oxygen bleach', and where from? (This is a substance based on hydrogen peroxide, as opposed to the usual sodium hypochlorite). Ask at the old bailey :-) cheers, clive Do you mean it was withdrawn from sale because it can be used to make explosives? I didn't know that. Sorry, no idea, I was just being silly. cheers, clive There was a great kids book in the local library that mentioned that hydrogen peroxide mixed with manganese dioxide was what powered some WWII torpedoes. There was also a small projectile launcher experiment using the two same materials on the same page. Powered the Nazi rocket plane the Me163 and we used it in the 50's in the blu steel rockets AFAIK |
#20
Posted to uk.d-i-y,uk.people.consumers,sci.chem,uk.media.tv.misc
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Oxygen Bleach
On 13 Feb, 21:08, Guy King wrote:
The message from Richard Brooks contains these words: There was a great kids book in the local library that mentioned that hydrogen peroxide mixed with manganese dioxide was what powered some WWII torpedoes. There was also a small projectile launcher experiment using the two same materials on the same page. It's also believed to have polished off the Kursk. -- Skipweasel We have always been at war with Iran. [George Orwell - almost] Yes - and a British sub in Gibralter sometime ago. There was something involving brass/copper and the hydogen peroxide - can't remember whether everything had to be of these two or whether it was the other way round. Judging from the stories coming out of the Old Bailey, hair-dressers' suppliers seem to be the source - but don't go and buy a box full !! Rob |
#21
Posted to uk.d-i-y,uk.people.consumers,sci.chem,uk.media.tv.misc
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Oxygen Bleach
Sofa - Spud said the following on 13/02/07 21:48:
On 13 Feb, 20:53, Richard Brooks richardbro...@vickers- supermarine.com wrote: There was a great kids book in the local library that mentioned that hydrogen peroxide mixed with manganese dioxide was what powered some WWII torpedoes. There was also a small projectile launcher experiment using the two same materials on the same page. Powered the Nazi rocket plane the Me163 and we used it in the 50's in the blu steel rockets AFAIK Doesn't the peroxide sold in hairdressers come in varying strengths ? You couldn't have books around like that in kids libraries now. It showed you how the charges in chimney stacks were placed to blow them up (or down) and the chemicals to make home made fireworks and explained what brisance was. Kids were spoilt in those days but it kept them reading! :-) Richard. -- "This week I have mostly been listening to - RVW's "A Sea Symphony" and lots of William Alwyn stuff. |
#22
Posted to sci.chem,uk.d-i-y,uk.media.tv.misc,uk.people.consumers
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Oxygen Bleach
On 13 Feb 2007 13:48:56 -0800, Sofa - Spud wrote:
There was a great kids book in the local library that mentioned that hydrogen peroxide mixed with manganese dioxide was what powered some WWII torpedoes. There was also a small projectile launcher experiment using the two same materials on the same page. Powered the Nazi rocket plane the Me163 and we used it in the 50's in the blu steel rockets AFAIK Blue Steel, air launched nuclear missile, used peroxide and kersone. Blue Streak, ground launched ICBM, used liquid oxygen and kerosene. http://www.nms.ac.uk/rocketsandmissiles.aspx -- Cheers Dave. pam is missing e-mail |
#23
Posted to uk.d-i-y,uk.people.consumers,sci.chem,uk.media.tv.misc
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Oxygen Bleach
The message .com
from "robgraham" contains these words: Judging from the stories coming out of the Old Bailey, hair-dressers' suppliers seem to be the source - but don't go and buy a box full !! I wouldn't want a box of hair-dressers anyway. -- Skipweasel We have always been at war with Iran. [George Orwell - almost] |
#24
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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Oxygen Bleach
Chris Hodges wrote:
alexander.keys1 wrote: Can you still get 'oxygen bleach', and where from? (This is a substance based on hydrogen peroxide, as opposed to the usual sodium hypochlorite). I've not seen it in the shops for a year or two, and a local janitorial supplier hasn't heard of it, although bleach tends not to be used for commercial cleaning IME. I need it for cleaning my flat (actually a Housing Association bedsit with shared laundry and bathroom), I don't use the normal stuff at home because if it gets onto clothes it damages them, but for a lot of cleaning jobs you can't beat bleach. I recently cured a bad smell in a cleaning cupboard at work, by getting some bleach from the nearby supermarket and putting it down the sink. Got all the stains out of the porcelain too, which the approved chemicals wouldn't shift. laundry bleach e.g. ace is a dilute form. Ecover laundry bleach. It was on the shelves in Waitrose last time I looked. Sodium percarbonate |
#25
Posted to sci.chem,uk.d-i-y,uk.media.tv.misc,uk.people.consumers
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Oxygen Bleach
On 13 Feb, 23:22, "Dave Liquorice" wrote:
On 13 Feb 2007 13:48:56 -0800, Sofa - Spud wrote: There was a great kids book in the local library that mentioned that hydrogen peroxide mixed with manganese dioxide was what powered some WWII torpedoes. There was also a small projectile launcher experiment using the two same materials on the same page. Powered the Nazi rocket plane the Me163 and we used it in the 50's in the blu steel rockets AFAIK Blue Steel, air launched nuclear missile, used peroxide and kersone. Blue Streak, ground launched ICBM, used liquid oxygen and kerosene. http://www.nms.ac.uk/rocketsandmissiles.aspx Hydrogen peroxide is used for wound cleaning (well 20yrs ago) too and you should see it froth!! |
#26
Posted to uk.d-i-y,uk.people.consumers,sci.chem,uk.media.tv.misc
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Oxygen Bleach
On 13 Feb 2007 13:48:56 -0800, "Sofa - Spud"
wrote: Powered the Nazi rocket plane the Me163 T-Stoff and we used it in the 50's in the blu steel rockets AFAIK That was in the High Test Peroxide (HTP) form which is an 85-96% concentration compared with about 5% in hairdressing bleach or 2-3% concentration in the form usually sold in Chemists. HTP in torpedoes caused the loss of HMS Sidon in 1956 as well as (probably) the Kursk. Handling HTP requires considerable care and special equipment. -- Peter Parry. http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/ |
#27
Posted to uk.d-i-y,uk.people.consumers,sci.chem,uk.media.tv.misc
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Oxygen Bleach
"Richard Brooks" | | There was a great kids book in the local library that mentioned that | hydrogen peroxide mixed with manganese dioxide was what powered some | WWII torpedoes. There was also a small projectile launcher experiment | using the two same materials on the same page. | | | Richard. -------------- Manganese dioxide? No. Calcium permanganate was used. ----------------------- RT Holtzamnn Chemical Rockets and Flame and Explosive Technology Marcel Dekker 1969 b. HYDROGEN PEROXIDE. In high strength, i.e., 90-100%, hydrogen peroxide has a high boiling point, high density, low viscosity, and with certain metalized systems is very high performing. The preparation and properties of hydrogen peroxide have been well documented (115). Much of the operational experience has also been reported (116). The stability of high strength hydrogen peroxide depends largely on the nature of the container in which it is stored and the concentration of adventitious impurities present in solution or in suspension (117) Empirical studies on container materials and additives during the past 50 years have produced a variety of techniques for passivating container surfaces and decreasing the activity of catalytic ions present in solution. It has only been in the past three years that high strength peroxide could be considered storable over long periods of time (118,119). In practice, because of slow decomposition and occasional explosions, high strength peroxide has found little application as a bipropellant and is mainly employed as a monopropellant or gas generator (120). This application is discussed more extensively below. (4) Hydrogen peroxide. With suitable catalysts it is possible to decompose H20, according to the equation: H202(l) = H20(g) + 1/2O2 + 12.96 kcal (2-26) Thermochernical calculations (120) on 100% H201 show the chamber temperature to be 1250'K and the specific impulse 146 sec at a 20-to-I pressure ratio. Because of this low performance, H102 cannot compete with the other members of the class A monopropellants, but it is interesting to note that as a result of the simplicity of operation of H202 motors and because of the low chamber temperature H202 was actually used in military weapons by the Germans in World War II. Examples of systems utilizing H2O2 catalyzed by calcium permanganate are (1) the Focke-Wolf ATO Fw56 which developed 650 lb thrust for 30 sec, (2) pilot-controlled units for the Henkel He 112 and He 126 rocket motors, and (3) the Messerschmitt Me 163-A rocket airplane with a thrust of 1650 lb. In spite of its low theoretical 1,,,, useful rocket application can be made of this monopropellant because of its high efficiency (as measured by c*) and its high liquid density (1.39 gm/cm3 for commercial 90% H202 at 20oC. Considerable application has also been made of the gas-generating properties of H202 (as, for instance, in the German V-2) because of ease of ignition and low temperature of the product gases. Hydrogen peroxide is normally manufactured as an aqueous solution. Prior to World War 11, concentrations no higher than 30-35% were generally available. As a result of interest in H2O2 as a rocket propellant, however, commercially available solutions of H201 containing up to 99 % are now produced by means of vacuum distillation of the more dilute solutions. For high performance it is desirable to employ as high a concentration of H202 as possible, whereas in certain gas-generating devices it may be advantageous to add water in order to lower the decomposition temperature. Calculations show that an 87 % solution will yield a temperature of 930'K (320'K decrease for 13 % H20) and an I., of only 126 sec (20 sec decrease). The use of aqueous solutions Of H202 may be desirable because of their low freezing points. A considerable amount of work has been done on the kinetics of the catalytic decomposition of dilute H2O2 solutions. It is known that permanganate solutions are effective catalysts for the decomposition of H202 and, in fact, calcium permanganate has been used very successfully for the ignition of peroxide motors (120). Once the decomposition has been started, the reaction proceeds smoothly with a nonluminous exhaust. Calcium permanganate can be used in two ways, i.e., as a concentrated aqueous solution injected together with the H201, and also as a catalytic surface on Alundum pellets which are soaked with the catalytic solution, dried, and then packed into the motor chamber. Both methods have been found satisfactory. High strength hydrogen peroxide can be decomposed reliably into superheated oxygen gas and water vapor at a predetermined temperature depending upon the H102 concentration and the initial temperature of the solution. The decomposition catalyst used to the greatest extent is the solid samariurn oxide coated silver screen (135). However, decomposition via a liquid catalyst is feasible and it has been employed in systems where short firing durations are used. The treated silver screen catalyst normally is arranged in a tightly compressed pack (Fig. 2-16). When the hydrogen peroxide passes over and around the wires of the pack screens, silver ions pass into the H2O2 solution. These silver ions react with the H202 molecule decomposing it into oxygen gas and water vapor with heat being liberated. This heat increases the reaction rate by raising the. temperature of the screens and the H202. In a matter of milliseconds the H202 reaction rate has increased to a point where the adiabatic decomposition temperature of the H201 is reached. This reaction rate continues indefinitely if required unless foreign matter poisons the silver. The disadvantages in the use of H20, either as a monopropellant or in a bipropellant combination are its thermal sensitivity, which requires vented containers for shipping and storage, and its high freezing points.** Concentrated H20, reacts with many metals, and the oxides formed catalyze the decomposition reaction. If poured on oxidized iron, concrete, dust, or clothing, the exothermic decomposition becomes so rapid that an explosion may result if the liquid is partially confined. This property constitutes a hazard and great care should be exercised in handling H202, to avoid spillage. Concentrated H,O, is practically inert, however, in contact with 2S aluminum alloy and polyethylene, Teflon and Kel-F plastics (136). A detailed description of the equipment suitable for handling concentrated H202 has been given by Davis and Keefe (136). With reasonable handling care and with the use of proper materials for containers, these authors conclude that concentrated peroxide solutions can be handled on a large scale with safety. -------------------------------------- GP Sutton Rocket Propulsion Elements 5th ed. John Wiley 1986 Hydrogen Peroxide (H202) In rocket application, hydrogen peroxide has been used in a highly concentrated form of 70 to 99%; the remainder is water. Commercial peroxide is approximately 30% concentrated. It was used in rocket applications between 1938 and 1965 (X-I and X-15 research aircraft), but is no longer used today, primarily because of its storage stability problems. In the combustion chamber, the propellant decomposes according to the following chemical reaction, forming superheated steam and gaseous oxygen: H202 -- H20+ 1/2O2 + heat This decomposition is brought about by the action of catalysts such as various permanganates, manganese dioxide, platinum, and iron oxide. In fact, most impurities act as a catalyst. The theoretical specific impulse of 90% hydrogen peroxide is 147 sec, when used as a monopropellant. Even under favorable conditions H202 Will often decompose at a slow rate during storage and gas will bubble out of the liquid. Contaminated liquid peroxide must be disposed before it reaches a danger point of about 448oK, when an explosion may occur. Concentrated peroxide causes severe burns when in contact with human skin and may ignite and cause fires when in contact with wood, oils, and many other organic materials. ------------ H2O2 Omnium gatherum Hydrogen peroxide of 80-85% strength under the name "T-Stoff" was used by the Germans during WW II in submarines. "U-Boat, Walter" After Dr. Helmuth Walter. Reacted with calcium permanganate H2O2 produced oxygen for use in submarine diesel engines, the energy liberated (690 kcal/g calculated for 100% peroxide) was in the form of steam utilized to operate gas turbines directly connected to propeller shaft. Seven such submarines (300 to 500 tons each) were accepted by the German Navy up to the end of WW II. Hydrogen peroxide with K or Na peroxide (Z-Stoff) produced superheated steam (180o C) for rockets &c. Hydrogen peroxide mixtures were also code named: Ingolin, Aurol, Neuralin and Subsidol. -------------------------------------------- Production of hydrogen peroxide: From Ammonium bisulphate by electrolysis. By oxidation of alkylhydroanthraquinones (Quinone process) Oxidation of isopropyl alcohol. Laboratory production is from barium peroxide. This is an expensive way of making H2O2! Hydrogen peroxide above 30% can be some really interesting stuff! There being a geometric relationship between interesting and dangerous!! Dr. Walter describes the use of hydrogen peroxide of the production of power in: Jet Propulsion 24, 166-171 (1954) [Not seen by me.] Sources: PATR 2510 (AD 160 636) Dictionary of Explosives Ammunition and Weapons. German Section (1958) Faith, Keyes, &B Clark's Industrial Chemicals 4th Ed JJ Mc Ketta ed Inorganic Chemicals Handbook -- donald j haarmann ------------------------ What we could do with round here is a good war. What else can you expect with peace running wild all over the place? You know what the trouble with peace is? No organization. Bertolt Brecht |
#28
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Oxygen Bleach
donald haarmann said the following on 14/02/07 16:59:
"Richard Brooks" | | There was a great kids book in the local library that mentioned that | hydrogen peroxide mixed with manganese dioxide was what powered some | WWII torpedoes. There was also a small projectile launcher experiment | using the two same materials on the same page. | | | Richard. -------------- Manganese dioxide? No. Calcium permanganate was used. Well, it was an American book which described this, long out of print by now and wouldn't be allowed on the shelves now. Richard. -- "This week I have mostly been listening to - RVW's "A Sea Symphony" and lots of William Alwyn stuff. |
#29
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Oxygen Bleach
"Richard Brooks" wrote in message
... alexander.keys1 said the following on 13/02/07 20:43: There was a great kids book in the local library that mentioned that hydrogen peroxide mixed with manganese dioxide was what powered some WWII torpedoes. There was also a small projectile launcher experiment using the two same materials on the same page. Richard. -- "This week I have mostly been listening to - RVW's "A Sea Symphony" and lots of William Alwyn stuff. Isn't getting kids to experiment with explosive materials somewhat irresponsible, even in those days? Regards Mike. |
#30
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Oxygen Bleach
On Thu, 15 Feb 2007 08:26:50 -0000, "Mike Cawood, HND BIT"
wrote: |!"Richard Brooks" wrote in message ... |! alexander.keys1 said the following on 13/02/07 20:43: |! |! There was a great kids book in the local library that mentioned that |! hydrogen peroxide mixed with manganese dioxide was what powered some WWII |! torpedoes. There was also a small projectile launcher experiment using |! the two same materials on the same page. |!Isn't getting kids to experiment with explosive materials somewhat |!irresponsible, even in those days? I never lost a friend to explosive experiments, or putting bangers into bottles, or shooting rockets at each other -- Dave Fawthrop dave hyphenologist co uk 20,000 free e-books at Project Gutenberg! http://www.gutenberg.org For Yorkshire Dialect go to www.hyphenologist.co.uk/songs/ http://www.gutenberg.org/author/John_Hartley http://www.gutenberg.org/author/F_W_Moorman |
#31
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Oxygen Bleach
Mike Cawood, HND BIT said the following on 15/02/07 08:26:
Isn't getting kids to experiment with explosive materials somewhat irresponsible, even in those days? Regards Mike. Well, they did also have some pages towards the back with some safer stuff for school projects such as that stuff that makes loads of ash and smoke. That of course was for the only experiment I've seen on tv comedy shows which was the volcano. There must have been whole school halls full of them! That and the pellets that make those snakes was all part of the indoor fireworks pages. The book was also full of chemical equations that explained what the chemicals were. This was in the Temple Cowley library in Oxford but that was over thirty five years ago now so it must be gone by now. :-) Richard. -- "This week I have mostly been listening to - RVW's "A Sea Symphony" and lots of William Alwyn stuff. |
#32
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Oxygen Bleach
Dave Fawthrop said the following on 15/02/07 08:34:
On Thu, 15 Feb 2007 08:26:50 -0000, "Mike Cawood, HND BIT" wrote: |!Isn't getting kids to experiment with explosive materials somewhat |!irresponsible, even in those days? I never lost a friend to explosive experiments, or putting bangers into bottles, or shooting rockets at each other I once saw a policeman doing a tap dance in a doorway trying to put out, probably a mixture of potassium permangate (used to be used as a mouthwash) and glycerine (used for stopping cake icing going solid) which was the fashionable nuisance at the time. It wasn't me, BTW! Richard. -- "This week I have mostly been listening to - RVW's "A Sea Symphony" and lots of William Alwyn stuff. |
#33
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Oxygen Bleach
On 15 Feb, 08:34, Dave Fawthrop
wrote: On Thu, 15 Feb 2007 08:26:50 -0000, "Mike Cawood, HND BIT" wrote: |!"Richard Brooks" wrote in message ... |! alexander.keys1 said the following on 13/02/07 20:43: |! |! There was a great kids book in the local library that mentioned that |! hydrogen peroxide mixed with manganese dioxide was what powered some WWII |! torpedoes. There was also a small projectile launcher experiment using |! the two same materials on the same page. |!Isn't getting kids to experiment with explosive materials somewhat |!irresponsible, even in those days? I never lost a friend to explosive experiments, or putting bangers into bottles, or shooting rockets at each other -- Ho Ho - piece of scaffold pole and a rocket !! it was like an RPG!! |
#34
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Oxygen Bleach
On 15 Feb, 08:26, "Mike Cawood, HND BIT" wrote:
Isn't getting kids to experiment with explosive materials somewhat irresponsible, even in those days? If kids are going to experiment, then hydrogen peroxide is one of the safer ways to do it. It just can't detonate if it tried and the hazard goes up with the concentration so it's easy to start small. Until you get to HTP, the worst hazard is the chemical problem of eye splash, not the physics of the explosions. The major safety precautions are just to wear goggles and don't seal it into anything (if you can't grok those, then autodarwinate). It's _incomparably_ safer to something like collecting Armstrong's mixture up from scraped caps, recycling aluminmium mixtures from fireworks or the like. Also look at the excellent safety record of the early British HTP rocket program, compared to the US (or US Navy!) liquid fuelled programs. Manganese compounds were used in WW2 as the late-war ersatz probelms started to bite. They weren't efficient enough for the flying rockets, but they were successful for the bulky and static V1 launch ramps. An early unsuccessful model of the Me163 engines used it too in a bipropellant system (Ian Hogg). |
#35
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Oxygen Bleach
In article ,
Dave Fawthrop wrote: I never lost a friend to explosive experiments, or putting bangers into bottles, or shooting rockets at each other A lad at school lost his thumb and part of his palm when trying to fill a tube with home made fireworks mixture. There were some burns to his face but his eyes were ok. -- Tony Williams. |
#36
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Oxygen Bleach
On 15 Feb, 09:51, Richard Brooks richardbro...@vickers-
supermarine.com wrote: That and the pellets that make those snakes was all part of the indoor fireworks pages. I _really_ wouldn't make those these days (My Dad made them when I was a kid). Apart from a few recipes that just aren't impressive enough to be worth it, they really are nastily carcinogenic. |
#37
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Oxygen Bleach
Dave Fawthrop wrote:
I never lost a friend to explosive experiments, or putting bangers into bottles, or shooting rockets at each other That takes me back! We used to shoot rockets at each other from whatever bit of tube we could find. Bangers in rotten apples made great (& messy) hand grenades - especially threepenny bangers. We made us own fun in them days................. -- Dave The Medway Handyman www.medwayhandyman.co.uk 01634 717930 07850 597257 |
#38
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Oxygen Bleach
"The Medway Handyman" wrote in message ... Dave Fawthrop wrote: I never lost a friend to explosive experiments, or putting bangers into bottles, or shooting rockets at each other That takes me back! We used to shoot rockets at each other from whatever bit of tube we could find. Bangers in rotten apples made great (& messy) hand grenades - especially threepenny bangers. We made us own fun in them days................. They were better in jellyfish caught down at the Strand or the Esplanade. |
#39
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Oxygen Bleach
On 15 Feb, 18:55, "The Medway Handyman"
wrote: Dave Fawthrop wrote: I never lost a friend to explosive experiments, or putting bangers into bottles, or shooting rockets at each other That takes me back! We used to shoot rockets at each other from whatever bit of tube we could find. Bangers in rotten apples made great (& messy) hand grenades - especially threepenny bangers. We made us own fun in them days................. -- We were lucky we could buy Airbombs!! |
#40
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Oxygen Bleach
In article , "The Medway Handyman" wrote:
Dave Fawthrop wrote: I never lost a friend to explosive experiments, or putting bangers into bottles, or shooting rockets at each other That takes me back! We used to shoot rockets at each other from whatever bit of tube we could find. Bangers in rotten apples made great (& messy) hand grenades - especially threepenny bangers. We made us own fun in them days................. Why would you put sausages into apples, and how did you get them to explode? |
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