http://www.westcountryfires.co.uk/fires/products/382.asp

It's a flueless gas fire. In other words, all of the carbon dioxide it
produces will remain in the room, instead of going up the chimney to
draw in fresh air from outside.

"the fire has the ability to burn off the odorous and stale air in the
room and efficiently return warm and neutral air back into your
airspace"

Wow.

Daniele

D.M. Procida wrote:
http://www.westcountryfires.co.uk/fires/products/382.asp

It's a flueless gas fire. In other words, all of the carbon dioxide it
produces will remain in the room, instead of going up the chimney to
draw in fresh air from outside.

A bit pricey at £1300 though.

"the fire has the ability to burn off the odorous and stale air in the
room and efficiently return warm and neutral air back into your
airspace"

Wow.

People are often astounded at flueless gas fires, especially with all the
hype surrounding carbon monoxide over the past few years, often with
unfounded fears...this particular model utilises a 'catalytic system', but
even without it, they are completely safe.

"Phil L" wrote in message
k...
D.M. Procida wrote:
http://www.westcountryfires.co.uk/fires/products/382.asp

It's a flueless gas fire. In other words, all of the carbon dioxide it
produces will remain in the room, instead of going up the chimney to
draw in fresh air from outside.

A bit pricey at £1300 though.

"the fire has the ability to burn off the odorous and stale air in the
room and efficiently return warm and neutral air back into your
airspace"

Wow.

People are often astounded at flueless gas fires, especially with all the
hype surrounding carbon monoxide over the past few years, often with
unfounded fears...this particular model utilises a 'catalytic system', but
even without it, they are completely safe.


Otherwise your gas cooker would kill you every time you used it! In effect,
a gas cooker and a flueless gas fire are one and the same.

Andy

Phil L wrote:

It's a flueless gas fire. In other words, all of the carbon dioxide it
produces will remain in the room, instead of going up the chimney to
draw in fresh air from outside.

A bit pricey at £1300 though.

"the fire has the ability to burn off the odorous and stale air in the
room and efficiently return warm and neutral air back into your
airspace"

Wow.

People are often astounded at flueless gas fires, especially with all the
hype surrounding carbon monoxide over the past few years, often with
unfounded fears...this particular model utilises a 'catalytic system', but
even without it, they are completely safe.

It might be safe - but if you're worried about stale air, a fire in the
room is not going to create fresh air out of it.

Daniele

D.M. Procida wrote:
Phil L wrote:

It's a flueless gas fire. In other words, all of the carbon dioxide
it produces will remain in the room, instead of going up the
chimney to draw in fresh air from outside.

A bit pricey at £1300 though.

"the fire has the ability to burn off the odorous and stale air in
the room and efficiently return warm and neutral air back into your
airspace"

Wow.

People are often astounded at flueless gas fires, especially with
all the hype surrounding carbon monoxide over the past few years,
often with unfounded fears...this particular model utilises a
'catalytic system', but even without it, they are completely safe.

It might be safe - but if you're worried about stale air, a fire in
the room is not going to create fresh air out of it.


I doubt anyone who is 'worried' about stale air would look towards any kind
of fire for an answer.
That said, we don't exactly know how this catalytic system works

On Nov 30, 11:15 pm, "Phil L" wrote:


Wow.People are often astounded at flueless gas fires, especially with all the
hype surrounding carbon monoxide over the past few years, often with
unfounded fears...this particular model utilises a 'catalytic system', but
even without it, they are completely safe.

An interesting opinion, Phil.
Wasn't it you that told a poster that they had 30 psi gas pressure?

If you want to know what the Corgi bunch think of them, read this;

http://www.screwfix.com/talk/thread....7473&tstart=45

Edited highlights;
Slide; "The catalytic converters only last so long, and people are
unlikely to get them replaced when they are spent. This means they lose
the ability to convert CO into CO2, and start killing people."

ARGI via Letchworth; "The investigation of a considerable body of
evidence by members of ARGI has identified a number of serious 'safety'
concerns including the lack of a British Standard governing the
construction and installation of flueless gas fire appliances. It has
therefore been decided to advise ARGI members not to become involved in
the specifying, installation or repair/maintenance of these appliances
until these concerns have been resolved and an acceptable standard has
been written. For further information please contact ARGI through the
Secretary, details are listed below."


A Corgi registered fitter (although not registered for gas fires) was
recently convicted and imprisoned for manslaughter after incorrectly
fitting a new faulty flueless gas fire. The DIYers buying fires at the
sheds are playing with fire, so to speak.


They should be banned, on efficiency grounds as well as on safety
grounds.

On Nov 30, 11:15 pm, "Phil L" wrote:


Wow.People are often astounded at flueless gas fires, especially with all the
hype surrounding carbon monoxide over the past few years, often with
unfounded fears...this particular model utilises a 'catalytic system', but
even without it, they are completely safe.

An interesting opinion, Phil.
Wasn't it you that told a poster that they had 30 psi gas pressure?

If you want to know what the Corgi bunch think of them, read this;

http://www.screwfix.com/talk/thread....7473&tstart=45

Edited highlights;
Slide; "The catalytic converters only last so long, and people are
unlikely to get them replaced when they are spent. This means they lose
the ability to convert CO into CO2, and start killing people."

ARGI via Letchworth; "The investigation of a considerable body of
evidence by members of ARGI has identified a number of serious 'safety'
concerns including the lack of a British Standard governing the
construction and installation of flueless gas fire appliances. It has
therefore been decided to advise ARGI members not to become involved in
the specifying, installation or repair/maintenance of these appliances
until these concerns have been resolved and an acceptable standard has
been written. For further information please contact ARGI through the
Secretary, details are listed below."


A Corgi registered fitter (although not registered for gas fires) was
recently convicted and imprisoned for manslaughter after incorrectly
fitting a new faulty flueless gas fire. The DIYers buying fires at the
sheds are playing with fire, so to speak.


They should be banned, on efficiency grounds as well as on safety
grounds.

Aidan wrote:
On Nov 30, 11:15 pm, "Phil L" wrote:


Wow.People are often astounded at flueless gas fires, especially
with all the
hype surrounding carbon monoxide over the past few years, often with
unfounded fears...this particular model utilises a 'catalytic
system', but even without it, they are completely safe.

An interesting opinion, Phil.
Wasn't it you that told a poster that they had 30 psi gas pressure?

I said 2bar, which is what the gas is at the mains side of the meter, in
many areas, certainly mine because I know several people who work for
Transco.

If you want to know what the Corgi bunch think of them, read this;

http://www.screwfix.com/talk/thread....7473&tstart=45


Edited highlights;
Slide; "The catalytic converters only last so long, and people are
unlikely to get them replaced when they are spent. This means they
lose the ability to convert CO into CO2, and start killing people."

ARGI via Letchworth; "The investigation of a considerable body of
evidence by members of ARGI has identified a number of serious
'safety' concerns including the lack of a British Standard governing
the construction and installation of flueless gas fire appliances. It
has therefore been decided to advise ARGI members not to become
involved in the specifying, installation or repair/maintenance of
these appliances until these concerns have been resolved and an
acceptable standard has been written. For further information please
contact ARGI through the Secretary, details are listed below."


This is where you're going wrong, I don't care what the 'Corgi bunch' have
to say about them, the manufacturers make them to fit in with current
regulations, which they do, if people are too stupid to fit them correctly
or use them according to instructions then that's up to them, but don't
blame the fire manufacturer for other people's stupidity.

A Corgi registered fitter (although not registered for gas fires) was
recently convicted and imprisoned for manslaughter after incorrectly
fitting a new faulty flueless gas fire. The DIYers buying fires at the
sheds are playing with fire, so to speak.


They should be banned, on efficiency grounds as well as on safety
grounds.

They are incredibly efficient, no chimney to take away 75% of the heat you
see.

On Dec 1, 12:28 am, "Phil L" wrote:


An interesting opinion, Phil.
Wasn't it you that told a poster that they had 30 psi gas pressure?
I said 2bar, which is what the gas is at the mains side of the meter, in
many areas, certainly mine because I know several people who work for
Transco.

No. What you said was;

"You turned the gas on? - what did you expect to happen considering the
gas
is at about 30lbs pressure? "

You did not qualify that statement; it seems you had believed that
there was a normal pressure of 30 psi at the test nipple You were also
confused about gauge and absolute pressures. In short, you know
remarkably little about the topic about which you are posting.


If you want to know what the Corgi bunch think of them, read this;

http://www.screwfix.com/talk/thread.jspa?threadID=47473&tstart=45


I don't care what the 'Corgi bunch' have
to say about them, the manufacturers make them to fit in with current
regulations, which they do, if people are too stupid to fit them correctly
or use them according to instructions then that's up to them, but don't
blame the fire manufacturer for other people's stupidity.

There is no relevant British Standard.

The Corgi bunch and the ARGI bunch are registered gas fitters, some of
whom know something about gas appliances. Every single comment in that
thread was opposed to flueless gas fires, none would fit them.


You know better?
Are you Drivel?


They are incredibly efficient, no chimney to take away 75% of the heat you
see.

No, they are not "incredibly efficient". The fires have no ventilation;
the vitiated air must be replaced with cold, fresh air from outside.
This also applies to the CO2 exhaled by people. The fires may appear to
be efficient to those who are technically naive and who make no
allowance for this.

At best, the IAQ will deteriorate. If the ventilation is inadequate,
the O2 will be consumed and the fire will then emit CO, regardless of
the catalysts and how it was installed.

Aidan wrote:
On Dec 1, 12:28 am, "Phil L" wrote:


An interesting opinion, Phil.
Wasn't it you that told a poster that they had 30 psi gas pressure?
I said 2bar, which is what the gas is at the mains side of the
meter, in many areas, certainly mine because I know several people
who work for Transco.

No. What you said was;

"You turned the gas on? - what did you expect to happen considering
the gas
is at about 30lbs pressure? "

You did not qualify that statement; it seems you had believed that
there was a normal pressure of 30 psi at the test nipple You were also
confused about gauge and absolute pressures. In short, you know
remarkably little about the topic about which you are posting.


Whatever, I'm not getting into some pathetic competition, if you need your
ego massaging, try elsewhere, 'about 30lbs' as opposed to 2 bar - do you
know what a 'bar' is?

If you want to know what the Corgi bunch think of them, read this;

http://www.screwfix.com/talk/thread.jspa?threadID=47473&tstart=45


I don't care what the 'Corgi bunch' have
to say about them, the manufacturers make them to fit in with current
regulations, which they do, if people are too stupid to fit them
correctly or use them according to instructions then that's up to
them, but don't blame the fire manufacturer for other people's
stupidity.

There is no relevant British Standard.

1) do you not imagine that these plans and designs have been passed as safe
by anyone?
2) just because some dweeb doesn't know how to install one without killing
people doesn't make them unsafe
3) there's no relevant british standard for thousands of everyday items,
they don't have to be.


The Corgi bunch and the ARGI bunch are registered gas fitters, some of
whom know something about gas appliances. Every single comment in that
thread was opposed to flueless gas fires, none would fit them.


You know better?

Yes, yes I do.

Are you Drivel?


No I'm not drivel, are you?

They are incredibly efficient, no chimney to take away 75% of the
heat you see.

No, they are not "incredibly efficient". The fires have no
ventilation; the vitiated air must be replaced with cold, fresh air
from outside. This also applies to the CO2 exhaled by people. The
fires may appear to be efficient to those who are technically naive
and who make no allowance for this.

They are incredibly efficient.


At best, the IAQ will deteriorate. If the ventilation is inadequate,
the O2 will be consumed and the fire will then emit CO, regardless of
the catalysts and how it was installed.

Ooohh, big words, you must be really clever, why don't you go in for 'head
of fire design' at some large company, that way you might impress someone,
or are you attempting to redefine the word '****'?

In message
,
D.M. Procida writes

http://www.dmprocida.co.uk/fires/products/382.asp

It's a clueless ****. In other words, all of his efforts to spam
uk.d-i-y will result in everyone killfiling him

"this **** has the ability to **** off the contributors to uk.d-i-y who
believe you should never buy from spammers

Wow.

Dickhead

--
geoff

In message
,
D.M. Procida writes
Phil L wrote:

It's a flueless gas fire. In other words, all of the carbon dioxide it
produces will remain in the room, instead of going up the chimney to
draw in fresh air from outside.

A bit pricey at £1300 though.

"the fire has the ability to burn off the odorous and stale air in the
room and efficiently return warm and neutral air back into your
airspace"

Wow.

People are often astounded at flueless gas fires, especially with all the
hype surrounding carbon monoxide over the past few years, often with
unfounded fears...this particular model utilises a 'catalytic system', but
even without it, they are completely safe.

It might be safe - but if you're worried about stale air, a fire in the
room is not going to create fresh air out of it.

Daniele - you are a spamming ****e

Why should anyone rely on anything you say ?

--
geoff

"raden" wrote in message
...

Daniele - you are a spamming ****e

Why should anyone rely on anything you say ?

WTF are you on about. It appears that OP is hardly trying to sell anything -
rather the opposite in fact...

clive

raden wrote:
In message
,
D.M. Procida writes
http://www.dmprocida.co.uk/fires/products/382.asp

It's a clueless ****. In other words, all of his efforts to spam
uk.d-i-y will result in everyone killfiling him

"this **** has the ability to **** off the contributors to uk.d-i-y


who believe you should never buy from spammers

Wow.

Dickhead


Geoff I think your spam detector is on overload: the OP is a reasonably
regular poster he see http://tinyurl.com/y8o2cp (or
http://groups.google.co.uk/groups?as_q=&num=100&scoring=d&hl=en&as_epq=&as_oq =&as_eq=&as_ugroup=uk.d-i-y&as_usubject=&as_uauthors=procida&lr=&as_drrb=q&a s_qdr=&as_mind=1&as_minm=1&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=1& as_maxm=12&as_maxy=2006&safe=off

David

raden wrote:

http://www.dmprocida.co.uk/fires/products/382.asp

It's a clueless ****. In other words, all of his efforts to spam
uk.d-i-y will result in everyone killfiling him

"this **** has the ability to **** off the contributors to uk.d-i-y who
believe you should never buy from spammers

Wow.

Dickhead

You're mad, aren't you?

And you can't read. Or format a news article properly.

Daniele

On Thu, 30 Nov 2006 23:03:35 +0000, D.M. Procida wrote:

It's a flueless gas fire. In other words, all of the carbon dioxide it
produces will remain in the room, instead of going up the chimney

Excellent idea, that will stop global warming.

D.M. Procida wrote:

It might be safe - but if you're worried about stale air, a fire in the
room is not going to create fresh air out of it.

"Stale air" though is less about air that's lacking in things, it's
about air that's also full of tobacco smoke or dogwaft. Burning that to
some simple CO2, provided you avoid the CO, seems reasonable enough

(and WTF is raden's problem?)

On 30 Nov 2006 15:47:45 -0800 Aidan wrote :
They should be banned, on efficiency grounds as well as on safety
grounds.

Uh - they're 100% efficient (save that they need some extra
ventilation).

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk

Aidan wrote:

If you want to know what the Corgi bunch think of them, read this;

http://www.screwfix.com/talk/thread....7473&tstart=45

Edited highlights;
Slide; "The catalytic converters only last so long, and people are
unlikely to get them replaced when they are spent. This means they lose
the ability to convert CO into CO2, and start killing people."

While I share your concerns about them generally, this point is not
accurate. People have been using unvented gas and paraffin fires for
many years with no catalysts, and though not risk free, lack of
catalyst does not result in death. It removes a layer of safety from
the equation. For death to occur you also would need a fire that burns
incorrectly, and lack of ventilation. I've been in various buildings
that used simple old non vented gas burners, and have always walked out
alive. The atmosphere they create isnt especially pleasant, but not
lethal.


NT

D.M. Procida wrote:
http://www.westcountryfires.co.uk/fires/products/382.asp

It's a flueless gas fire. In other words, all of the carbon dioxide it
produces will remain in the room, instead of going up the chimney to
draw in fresh air from outside.

"the fire has the ability to burn off the odorous and stale air in the
room and efficiently return warm and neutral air back into your
airspace"

Wow.

Daniele

They replace the odours with another set of their own.

The thing that bothers me most about these sort of fires is the condensation
they create. There's an awful lot of water created by them when burning
gas!

On Fri, 1 Dec 2006 10:55:41 +0000, Steve Firth
wrote:

|On Thu, 30 Nov 2006 23:03:35 +0000, D.M. Procida wrote:
|
| It's a flueless gas fire. In other words, all of the carbon dioxide it
| produces will remain in the room, instead of going up the chimney
|
|Excellent idea, that will stop global warming.

Only if the room is hermetically sealed, which it isn't.
The CO2 and H2O produced by the fire eventually gets into the atmosphere,
and adds a tiny amount to Global warming.
--
Dave Fawthrop dave hyphenologist co uk Google Groups is IME the *worst*
method of accessing usenet. GG subscribers would be well advised get a
newsreader, say Agent, and a newsserver, say news.individual.net. These
will allow them: to see only *new* posts, a killfile, and other goodies.

D.M. Procida wrote:


"literally breathes life into your room"


If that is true then it must be releasing bacteria into the room, or
something bigger. Sounds nasty to me.

Robert

On Fri, 1 Dec 2006 08:57:03 +0000,
(D.M. Procida) wrote:

raden wrote:

http://www.dmprocida.co.uk/fires/products/382.asp

It's a clueless ****. In other words, all of his efforts to spam
uk.d-i-y will result in everyone killfiling him

"this **** has the ability to **** off the contributors to uk.d-i-y who
believe you should never buy from spammers

Wow.

Dickhead

You're mad, aren't you?

And you can't read. Or format a news article properly.

Daniele

Hes mad and by 2am off his face.

On Dec 1, 2:31 pm, "Robert Laws" wrote:
D.M. Procida wrote:"literally breathes life into your room"

If that is true then it must be releasing bacteria into the room, or
something bigger. Sounds nasty to me.

It's probably more intelligent that Raden.

MBQ

On Dec 1, 12:09 pm, wrote:
While I share your concerns about them generally, this point is not
accurate. People have been using unvented gas and paraffin fires for
many years with no catalysts, and though not risk free, lack of
catalyst does not result in death. NT

More here;
http://www.diynot.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=70741

BG won't install, service or repair them.
ARGI has advised members not to istall or service them.
Many RGIs won't deal with them.

From that thread;
"Most seem to require a permanent 100cm vent.......which will let in a
hell of a draught......so people will block them. I spend a
considerable amount of my time unblocking vital airvents blocked by
tenants, so don't tell me it won't happen cos it will."

If installed correctly you introduce a permanent 100cm2 draught; hardly
energy efficient. And no, I really can't be arsed to check the figure
quoted.
If installed incorrectly, or if they malfunction, then they are unsafe

People have been using unvented gas and paraffin fires for
many years

True They also had leaky, draughty windows, walls and floors. They had
chimneys.

We have uPVC windows & doors, draught-proofing, sheet flooring
(laminate or laminated timber), gypsum plastered walls & ceilings, and
caulking to fill any remaining gaps. Some houses are getting pretty
airtight. Introducing a 2.6kW open flame into some such houses is
bloody ignorant.

Far more sensible to use a fanned flue boiler that draws the cold air
necessary for combustion from outside only as it needs it and which
deposits the products of combustion back outdoors.

I've been in various buildings
that used simple old non vented gas burners, and have always walked out
alive.

You did. So did I.
The lady who was killed by her flueless gas fire didn't and many more
will follow; or not follow.

On Dec 1, 1:19 am, "Phil L" wrote:
Whatever, I'm not getting into some pathetic competition, if you need
your
ego massaging, try elsewhere, 'about 30lbs' as opposed to 2 bar - do you
know what a 'bar' is?

Oh dear.
Phil was wrong and now he's having a hissy, wobbly fit. I do know what
a bar is. I also know the difference between gauge and absolute. And so
do you, now that some kind person has told you.
I was going to, but I was too busy laughing.

I don't care what the 'Corgi bunch' have

There is no relevant British Standard.1) do you not imagine that these plans and designs have been passed as safe
by anyone?
2) just because some dweeb doesn't know how to install one without killing
people doesn't make them unsafe
3) there's no relevant british standard for thousands of everyday items,
they don't have to be.


Oh dear. You have bought one, didn't you?

You know better?Yes, yes I do.
Are you Drivel?No I'm not drivel, are you?

You ARE Drivel. There can't be two idiots this arrogant.


They are incredibly efficient, no chimney to take away 75% of the
heat you see.



No, they are not "incredibly efficient". The fires have no
ventilation; the vitiated air must be replaced with cold, fresh air
from outside. This also applies to the CO2 exhaled by people. The
fires may appear to be efficient to those who are technically naive
and who make no allowance for this.

They are incredibly efficient.

And have a great big permanent vent letting a howling gale blow in all
the time Until some uninformed unfortunate blocks it.
And dies.

You didn't know that?
You installed it yourself and didn't read the instructions.


At best, the IAQ will deteriorate. If the ventilation is inadequate,
the O2 will be consumed and the fire will then emit CO, regardless of
the catalysts and how it was installed.Ooohh, big words, you must be really clever,

Whoops, silly me! Any technician or engineer would know what that
means.
But you're neither and you don't.

why don't you go in for 'head
of fire design' at some large company, that way you might impress someone,
or are you attempting to redefine the word '****'?

I think they're mostly made in Italy. Too far to commute. And I'm too
busy, designing HVAC systems.
You're arguing about engineering, a topic you little about, with an
engineer.
Probably best if you shut up; a shut gob gathers no feet. You'll just
make yourself look a bigger cnut.

Aidan wrote:
On Dec 1, 12:09 pm, wrote:

People have been using unvented gas and paraffin fires for
many years

True They also had leaky, draughty windows, walls and floors. They had
chimneys.

good point.


NT

D.M. Procida wrote:
http://www.westcountryfires.co.uk/fires/products/382.asp

It's a flueless gas fire. In other words, all of the carbon dioxide it
produces will remain in the room, instead of going up the chimney to
draw in fresh air from outside.

"the fire has the ability to burn off the odorous and stale air in the
room and efficiently return warm and neutral air back into your
airspace"

Wow.

Daniele

me and a mate installed one of those a month back. bloke gets home
and declares it's the wrong one, the shop had supplied it to us, blind.
we installed it. it looked rubbish, like his LCD TV on the other wall.

thing is, he's an ex marine with a short fuse and does boxing to
keep himself sharp ... luckily he saw the funny side as far as
we were concerned but the shop who screwed up got it full bore.

dangerous expensive tat, ime.

In message , Lobster
writes
raden wrote:
In message
,
D.M. Procida writes
http://www.dmprocida.co.uk/fires/products/382.asp
It's a clueless ****. In other words, all of his efforts to spam
uk.d-i-y will result in everyone killfiling him
"this **** has the ability to **** off the contributors to uk.d-i-y

who believe you should never buy from spammers
Wow.
Dickhead


Geoff I think your spam detector is on overload: the OP is a reasonably
regular poster he see http://tinyurl.com/y8o2cp (or
http://groups.google.co.uk/groups?as...&hl=en&as_epq=
&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_ugroup=uk.d-i-y&as_usubject=&as_uauthors=procida&lr=&a
s_drrb=q&as_qdr=&as_mind=1&as_minm=1&as_miny=1981 &as_maxd=1&as_maxm=12&a
s_maxy=2006&safe=off

Yes - looks like it

my sincere apologies


--
geoff

On Thu, 30 Nov 2006 23:03:35 +0000, D.M. Procida wrote:

http://www.westcountryfires.co.uk/fires/products/382.asp

It's a flueless gas fire. In other words, all of the carbon dioxide it
produces will remain in the room, instead of going up the chimney to
draw in fresh air from outside.

"the fire has the ability to burn off the odorous and stale air in the
room and efficiently return warm and neutral air back into your
airspace"

Wow.

Daniele

This is the sort of technically ill founded hype that "you know who" takes
as gospel true.

Flueless gas fires are not death traps but are subject to a number of
rules so that they don't become so. Principally, the power per unit volume
is set at a low limit, and additional substantial (100cm^2) ventilation is
mandatory. The also have a catalyst to oxide traces of CO to CO2 in the
combustion products.

They are much more expensive than basic open flued and balanced flued
models of comparable rating.

They have the very big disadvantage that they produce a large amount of
water vapour which in some circumstances might be useful in many others
will do nothing to reduce any potential or actual damp problems.

They can hardly be described "as breathing life into your room" unless you
are a spore of A.Niger.

--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html
Gas Fitting Standards Docs he http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFittingStandards

Aidan wrote:
On Dec 1, 1:19 am, "Phil L" wrote:
Whatever, I'm not getting into some pathetic competition, if you need
your
ego massaging, try elsewhere, 'about 30lbs' as opposed to 2 bar - do
you know what a 'bar' is?

Oh dear.
Phil was wrong and now he's having a hissy, wobbly fit. I do know what
a bar is. I also know the difference between gauge and absolute. And
so do you, now that some kind person has told you.
I was going to, but I was too busy laughing.

Hysterically after realising that 2bar and 'about 30lbs' are one and the
same?


I don't care what the 'Corgi bunch' have

There is no relevant British Standard.1) do you not imagine that
these plans and designs have been passed as safe
by anyone?
2) just because some dweeb doesn't know how to install one without
killing people doesn't make them unsafe
3) there's no relevant british standard for thousands of everyday
items, they don't have to be.


Oh dear. You have bought one, didn't you?

I haven't bought one didn't I.

You know better?Yes, yes I do.
Are you Drivel?No I'm not drivel, are you?

You ARE Drivel. There can't be two idiots this arrogant.

Obviously there are and you are 50% of the above.


They are incredibly efficient, no chimney to take away 75% of the
heat you see.



No, they are not "incredibly efficient". The fires have no
ventilation; the vitiated air must be replaced with cold, fresh air
from outside. This also applies to the CO2 exhaled by people. The
fires may appear to be efficient to those who are technically naive
and who make no allowance for this.

They are incredibly efficient.

And have a great big permanent vent letting a howling gale blow in all
the time Until some uninformed unfortunate blocks it.
And dies.


I see, so conventional gas fires don't need any ventilation?
And fensa fitted windows, and indeed all windows manufactured today are made
with a permanent vent fitted for this very purpose, or is this another
subject of which you know zero about?

You didn't know that?
You installed it yourself and didn't read the instructions.


I'm afraid not, I have never fitted a flueless gas fire, I have tested them
though, along with hundreds of other gas fires, boilers and other gas
appliances as part of my job, what job do you do?

At best, the IAQ will deteriorate. If the ventilation is inadequate,
the O2 will be consumed and the fire will then emit CO, regardless
of
the catalysts and how it was installed.Ooohh, big words, you must
be really clever,

Whoops, silly me! Any technician or engineer would know what that
means.
But you're neither and you don't.

So you're an engineer or technician? - can't make your mind up or have they
not printed your name tag yet to tell you what you are?


why don't you go in for 'head
of fire design' at some large company, that way you might impress
someone, or are you attempting to redefine the word '****'?

I think they're mostly made in Italy. Too far to commute. And I'm too
busy, designing HVAC systems.
You're arguing about engineering, a topic you little about, with an
engineer.

Ah, another HVAC engineer who knows feck all about ventilation and even less
about combustion, there's a novelty.

Probably best if you shut up; a shut gob gathers no feet. You'll just
make yourself look a bigger cnut.

No thanks, I'm enjoying making you look like an even bigger prick than you
appear at first glance.

On Dec 2, 2:10 pm, "Phil L" wrote:

Hysterically after realising that 2bar and 'about 30lbs' are one and the
same?

No, Phil; the funny bit was that you'd thought there was 2 bar/30 psi
pressure at the test nipple on the meter outlet, when it's more like
one hundredth of that; 20 mbar/0.02 bar/0.3 psi.

Whilst you're flannelling around to hide your embarrassment, you really
did make yourself look very silly there.

You then showed you had no clue about how to use a manometer, but
someone told you how to do it later on in that thread.

I'm afraid not, I have never fitted a flueless gas fire, I have tested them
though, along with hundreds of other gas fires, boilers and other gas
appliances as part of my job, what job do you do?

You really shouldn't be doing that, Phil.

You are a handyman and you really shouldn't be buggering about with
gas appliances when you know nothing about them and have no idea how to
use the very simplest pressure measurement tool.

You're not qualified and are a danger to yourself and your customers.

As you said; "I myself have no formal qualifications to speak of, but
had
the confidence to try everything and some things I was good at and now
I
earn my living doing them"

Your confidence in your own abilities is misplaced.

Ah, another HVAC engineer who knows feck all about ventilation and even less
about combustion, there's a novelty.

An truly inspired choice of words.
I know enough about combustion to be able to calculate the mass flow
rates at which the combustion products would accumulate, assuming a
stoichiometric ratio and complete combustion. I'd thought of doing that
out of interest, but can't be bothered. I also know that you wouldn't
have a clue.

Probably best if you shut up; a shut gob gathers no feet.

On Dec 1, 11:27 pm, Ed Sirett wrote:
Flueless gas fires are not death traps but are subject to a number of
rules so that they don't become so.
The also have a catalyst to oxide traces of CO to CO2 in the
combustion products.


True. If enough gas fires/ gas boilers/ cars/ bottle openers/whatever
are sold, then a number of people will manage to hurt themselves with
the product.

The concern seems to be that the catalyst needs to be tested and
replaced at regular intervals and the only ventilation opening is
accessible and can be blocked by the users, either accidentally or
intentionally. A chimney/flue is less liable to be blocked. I think
casualties from flueless fires may become unacceptably high.

They're also very inefficient, by the time you've ventilated the flat
enough to disperse the condensation.

They have the very big disadvantage that they produce a large amount of
water vapour which in some circumstances might be useful in many others
will do nothing to reduce any potential or actual damp problems.

True. Strangely, that's not mentioned in the manufacturers' brochures.

They can hardly be described "as breathing life into your room" unless you
are a spore of A.Niger.

That must be the 'black mold' so beloved by American no win/no fee
injury lawyers?

The acid test;
Would you install one in a flat belonging to a member of your family?

If you were given an expensive designer one free, would you install it
in a flat belonging to a member of your family.

Aidan wrote:
On Dec 2, 2:10 pm, "Phil L" wrote:

Hysterically after realising that 2bar and 'about 30lbs' are one and
the same?

No, Phil; the funny bit was that you'd thought there was 2 bar/30 psi
pressure at the test nipple on the meter outlet, when it's more like
one hundredth of that; 20 mbar/0.02 bar/0.3 psi.

Whilst you're flannelling around to hide your embarrassment, you
really did make yourself look very silly there.

I said he's blown the fluid out of the manometer because there was too much
pressure, further posts from the OP got to the truth, inthat he'd blown the
fluid out of the manometer because there was too much pressure.

HTH

You then showed you had no clue about how to use a manometer, but
someone told you how to do it later on in that thread.

I was using drop testers when you was a glint in the milkman's eye.

I'm afraid not, I have never fitted a flueless gas fire, I have
tested them though, along with hundreds of other gas fires, boilers
and other gas appliances as part of my job, what job do you do?

You really shouldn't be doing that, Phil.

Oh really, why's that Aiden?

You are a handyman and you really shouldn't be buggering about with
gas appliances when you know nothing about them and have no idea how
to use the very simplest pressure measurement tool.

I'm not a handyman, I'm a self employed builder, prior to this I installed
cavity wall insulation for about 8-9 years, each house we installed had to
have gas tests done on each appliance, we did 3 houses most days, now my
maths may not be as good as yours, considering you've been somewhere that
taught you how to spell 'stoichiometric', but that equates to around 6,480
homes, admittedly, some of them didn't have any gas appliances while oithers
had 2 or 3, either way it makes around 13,000 gas tests.


You're not qualified and are a danger to yourself and your customers.

As you said; "I myself have no formal qualifications to speak of, but
had
the confidence to try everything and some things I was good at and now
I
earn my living doing them"


Nice bit of selective googling, but you missed one:

http://snipurl.com/13xda


Your confidence in your own abilities is misplaced.

Ah, another HVAC engineer who knows feck all about ventilation and
even less about combustion, there's a novelty.

An truly inspired choice of words.
I know enough about combustion to be able to calculate the mass flow
rates at which the combustion products would accumulate, assuming a
stoichiometric ratio and complete combustion. I'd thought of doing
that out of interest, but can't be bothered. I also know that you
wouldn't have a clue.

Hell, and they didn't even teach you that flueless gas fires are perfectly
safe....as I said earlier to which you spat your dummy out complaining that
it's the customers who are stupid and don't like sitting in a gale-force
draught...pity you forgot that all gas fires, flueless or otherwise require
ventilation to function correctly...nice backpeddaling.

No really.

On Dec 2, 8:57 pm, "Phil L" wrote:
I said he's blown the fluid out of the manometer because there was too much
pressure, further posts from the OP got to the truth, inthat he'd blown the
fluid out of the manometer because there was too much pressure.

Oh, that explains that then.

So, how do you explain the bit where you said:

"A fiftieth of atmospheric pressure?, if this is true then if you knock
a
hole in a gas pipe, the air pressure (which is fifty times higher)
should
rush into the pipe, rather than gas come out?

Gas is 2 bar, each bar is 14.5lbs psi, approx, easily enough to blow a
few
cc's of coloured water out of a plastic straw."

You said that here;
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/...f80d9ba%2F%3F&

Backpeddalling and frantic flannelling.
You've made yourself look very silly.


HTH

I was using drop testers when you was a glint in the milkman's eye.

but that equates to around 6,480
homes, admittedly, some of them didn't have any gas appliances while oithers
had 2 or 3, either way it makes around 13,000 gas tests.

13,000 gas tests and you still think gas is at 30psi and you're
clueless about how to use a manometer?
I don't think so.

pity you forgot that all gas fires, flueless or otherwise require
ventilation to function correctly...nice backpeddaling.

Errrrrrrrrr, actually, no, they don't. Wrong again.
I'll let you figure that one out for yourself.


Probably best if you shut up; a shut gob gathers no feet. You'll just
make yourself look a bigger cnut.

Aidan wrote:
On Dec 2, 8:57 pm, "Phil L" wrote:
I said he's blown the fluid out of the manometer because there was
too much pressure, further posts from the OP got to the truth,
inthat he'd blown the fluid out of the manometer because there was
too much pressure.

Oh, that explains that then.

So, how do you explain the bit where you said:

"A fiftieth of atmospheric pressure?, if this is true then if you
knock a
hole in a gas pipe, the air pressure (which is fifty times higher)
should
rush into the pipe, rather than gas come out?


Because the previous poster had made a typo, numpty.


Gas is 2 bar, each bar is 14.5lbs psi, approx, easily enough to blow a
few
cc's of coloured water out of a plastic straw."


Gas is 2 bar at the meter, he didn't say where he'd connected the effing
manometer, ..did the few cc's of coloured water blow out of the straw or
not?

You said that here;
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/...f80d9ba%2F%3F&

Backpeddalling and frantic flannelling.
You've made yourself look very silly.


HTH

I was using drop testers when you was a glint in the milkman's eye.

but that equates to around 6,480
homes, admittedly, some of them didn't have any gas appliances while
oithers had 2 or 3, either way it makes around 13,000 gas tests.

13,000 gas tests and you still think gas is at 30psi and you're
clueless about how to use a manometer?
I don't think so.

You don't think, correct....and the gas tests were carried out daily for
about 8 years, we all had to be acops registered and underwent training to
that effect, true, we rarely took off any gas meters to test them though.


pity you forgot that all gas fires, flueless or otherwise require
ventilation to function correctly...nice backpeddaling.

Errrrrrrrrr, actually, no, they don't. Wrong again.

Which ones can operate safely in a sealed room?

I'll let you figure that one out for yourself.


Probably best if you shut up; a shut gob gathers no feet. You'll just
make yourself look a bigger cnut.

I'll let you figure that one out for yourself.

On Dec 2, 9:45 pm, "Phil L" wrote:

Because the previous poster had made a typo, numpty.

No he hadn't, Phil. He had said, quite correctly, that it was "... at
20mbar pressure, i.e. 1/50th atmosphere pressure, or around 8" of
water".

You were wrong, Phil.

Gas is 2 bar at the meter,

No, you're wrong again there, Phil.

It is not 2 bar at the meter. It is 21mbar at the meter.
It is at a higher pressure at the governor/pressure reducing valve,
which is on the meter inlet. Even there, it's not usually anywhere near
2 bar; more like 30" wg, 0.07 bar.

he didn't say where he'd connected the effing
manometer,

You're wrong, Phil. He had connected it to a test nipple, which is
usually the one on the meter outlet and so is at the reduced pressure,
21 mbar static.

He may have connected it to a test nipple on an appliance, but they're
all at 21 mbar static pressure too.

There are no test nipples on the high pressure/inlet side of the
governor because it would allow the users access to an unmetered gas
supply.

You should know that, having done the ACOPS course.
Why don't you just go and look at a meter? The usual arrangement is
service pipe, isolating valve, governor, meter ( with test nipple on
the meter outlet).

..did the few cc's of coloured water blow out of the straw or
not?

Yes, it did, because he opened the 1/4 turn gas isolating valve
quickly. The gas surged into the unpressurised manometer tube and the
water column had to stop the entire column of moving gas in the service
pipe. It causes a momentary pressure surge Water hammer happens the
same way.

If you open the valve slowly, it doesn't happen.
You should know that, having done 380,000 gas tests.

Which ones can operate safely in a sealed room?

The ones that can operate safely in a sealed room have a special name.
They are called "room sealed".

Like these;
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en...UK%7CcountryGB

Probably best if you shut up; a shut gob gathers no feet. You'll just
make yourself look a bigger cnut.

I think you must derive some perverse pleasure from being humiliated.
I'm starting to feel guilty about taking the **** out of someone who,
it now appears, is not in possession of their faculties.

Why don't you just stop dispensing your expert, but wrong, advice
about topics that you know nothing about and we'll get along nicely.

Aidan wrote:
On Dec 2, 9:45 pm, "Phil L" wrote:

Because the previous poster had made a typo, numpty.

No he hadn't, Phil. He had said, quite correctly, that it was "... at
20mbar pressure, i.e. 1/50th atmosphere pressure, or around 8" of
water".

You were wrong, Phil.

Gas is 2 bar at the meter,

No, you're wrong again there, Phil.

It is not 2 bar at the meter. It is 21mbar at the meter.
It is at a higher pressure at the governor/pressure reducing valve,
which is on the meter inlet. Even there, it's not usually anywhere
near 2 bar; more like 30" wg, 0.07 bar.

he didn't say where he'd connected the effing
manometer,

You're wrong, Phil. He had connected it to a test nipple, which is
usually the one on the meter outlet and so is at the reduced pressure,
21 mbar static.

He may have connected it to a test nipple on an appliance, but they're
all at 21 mbar static pressure too.

There are no test nipples on the high pressure/inlet side of the
governor because it would allow the users access to an unmetered gas
supply.

You should know that, having done the ACOPS course.
Why don't you just go and look at a meter? The usual arrangement is
service pipe, isolating valve, governor, meter ( with test nipple on
the meter outlet).

..did the few cc's of coloured water blow out of the straw or
not?

Yes, it did, because he opened the 1/4 turn gas isolating valve
quickly. The gas surged into the unpressurised manometer tube and the
water column had to stop the entire column of moving gas in the
service pipe. It causes a momentary pressure surge Water hammer
happens the same way.

If you open the valve slowly, it doesn't happen.
You should know that, having done 380,000 gas tests.


I didn't say I had performed 380,00 gas tests, and none on gas meters.

Which ones can operate safely in a sealed room?

The ones that can operate safely in a sealed room have a special name.
They are called "room sealed".

Like these;
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en...UK%7CcountryGB

Now I know you are bull****ting, all those 'room sealed' gas fires have
balanced flues, they take air from outside, although I can't believe they
didn't teach you this at HVAC university.

Phil L wrote:

And BTW, I can say anything I like in this group or any other, if someone
asks a question, I'll give them an answer, something you seem unable to do,
it's a pity your education didn't give you the courage to believe in
yourself rather than having a pop at those that do

On Dec 3, 9:59 pm, "Phil L" wrote:


Now I know you are bull****ting, all those 'room sealed' gas fires have
balanced flues, they take air from outside, although I can't believe they
didn't teach you this at HVAC university.

Of course they do, Phil. That's why they're called "room sealed".
They're much safer than conventional open flued appliances and far, far
safer than
stupid flueless heaters. It's very unlikely that they'll spill CO into
the room, see?

Phil L wrote:And BTW, I can say anything I like in this group or any other, if someone
asks a question, I'll give them an answer, something you seem unable to do,
it's a pity your education didn't give you the courage to believe in
yourself rather than having a pop at those that do


I've answered lots of questions. For example, I've just answered your
question; "Which ones can operate safely in a sealed room?"

If you post something that's wrong, I may feel obliged to correct you.
So far, you've been consistently wrong and you have taken umbrage at my
correcting your numerous mistakes.