http://www.westcountryfires.co.uk/fires/products/382.asp

It's a flueless gas fire. In other words, all of the carbon dioxide it
produces will remain in the room, instead of going up the chimney to
draw in fresh air from outside.

"the fire has the ability to burn off the odorous and stale air in the
room and efficiently return warm and neutral air back into your
airspace"

Wow.

Daniele

D.M. Procida wrote:
http://www.westcountryfires.co.uk/fires/products/382.asp

It's a flueless gas fire. In other words, all of the carbon dioxide it
produces will remain in the room, instead of going up the chimney to
draw in fresh air from outside.

A bit pricey at £1300 though.

"the fire has the ability to burn off the odorous and stale air in the
room and efficiently return warm and neutral air back into your
airspace"

Wow.

People are often astounded at flueless gas fires, especially with all the
hype surrounding carbon monoxide over the past few years, often with
unfounded fears...this particular model utilises a 'catalytic system', but
even without it, they are completely safe.

Phil L wrote:

It's a flueless gas fire. In other words, all of the carbon dioxide it
produces will remain in the room, instead of going up the chimney to
draw in fresh air from outside.

A bit pricey at £1300 though.

"the fire has the ability to burn off the odorous and stale air in the
room and efficiently return warm and neutral air back into your
airspace"

Wow.

People are often astounded at flueless gas fires, especially with all the
hype surrounding carbon monoxide over the past few years, often with
unfounded fears...this particular model utilises a 'catalytic system', but
even without it, they are completely safe.

It might be safe - but if you're worried about stale air, a fire in the
room is not going to create fresh air out of it.

Daniele

D.M. Procida wrote:
Phil L wrote:

It's a flueless gas fire. In other words, all of the carbon dioxide
it produces will remain in the room, instead of going up the
chimney to draw in fresh air from outside.

A bit pricey at £1300 though.

"the fire has the ability to burn off the odorous and stale air in
the room and efficiently return warm and neutral air back into your
airspace"

Wow.

People are often astounded at flueless gas fires, especially with
all the hype surrounding carbon monoxide over the past few years,
often with unfounded fears...this particular model utilises a
'catalytic system', but even without it, they are completely safe.

It might be safe - but if you're worried about stale air, a fire in
the room is not going to create fresh air out of it.


I doubt anyone who is 'worried' about stale air would look towards any kind
of fire for an answer.
That said, we don't exactly know how this catalytic system works

In message
,
D.M. Procida writes
Phil L wrote:

It's a flueless gas fire. In other words, all of the carbon dioxide it
produces will remain in the room, instead of going up the chimney to
draw in fresh air from outside.

A bit pricey at £1300 though.

"the fire has the ability to burn off the odorous and stale air in the
room and efficiently return warm and neutral air back into your
airspace"

Wow.

People are often astounded at flueless gas fires, especially with all the
hype surrounding carbon monoxide over the past few years, often with
unfounded fears...this particular model utilises a 'catalytic system', but
even without it, they are completely safe.

It might be safe - but if you're worried about stale air, a fire in the
room is not going to create fresh air out of it.

Daniele - you are a spamming ****e

Why should anyone rely on anything you say ?

--
geoff

"raden" wrote in message
...

Daniele - you are a spamming ****e

Why should anyone rely on anything you say ?

WTF are you on about. It appears that OP is hardly trying to sell anything -
rather the opposite in fact...

clive

D.M. Procida wrote:

It might be safe - but if you're worried about stale air, a fire in the
room is not going to create fresh air out of it.

"Stale air" though is less about air that's lacking in things, it's
about air that's also full of tobacco smoke or dogwaft. Burning that to
some simple CO2, provided you avoid the CO, seems reasonable enough

(and WTF is raden's problem?)

"Phil L" wrote in message
k...
D.M. Procida wrote:
http://www.westcountryfires.co.uk/fires/products/382.asp

It's a flueless gas fire. In other words, all of the carbon dioxide it
produces will remain in the room, instead of going up the chimney to
draw in fresh air from outside.

A bit pricey at £1300 though.

"the fire has the ability to burn off the odorous and stale air in the
room and efficiently return warm and neutral air back into your
airspace"

Wow.

People are often astounded at flueless gas fires, especially with all the
hype surrounding carbon monoxide over the past few years, often with
unfounded fears...this particular model utilises a 'catalytic system', but
even without it, they are completely safe.


Otherwise your gas cooker would kill you every time you used it! In effect,
a gas cooker and a flueless gas fire are one and the same.

Andy

On Nov 30, 11:15 pm, "Phil L" wrote:


Wow.People are often astounded at flueless gas fires, especially with all the
hype surrounding carbon monoxide over the past few years, often with
unfounded fears...this particular model utilises a 'catalytic system', but
even without it, they are completely safe.

An interesting opinion, Phil.
Wasn't it you that told a poster that they had 30 psi gas pressure?

If you want to know what the Corgi bunch think of them, read this;

http://www.screwfix.com/talk/thread....7473&tstart=45

Edited highlights;
Slide; "The catalytic converters only last so long, and people are
unlikely to get them replaced when they are spent. This means they lose
the ability to convert CO into CO2, and start killing people."

ARGI via Letchworth; "The investigation of a considerable body of
evidence by members of ARGI has identified a number of serious 'safety'
concerns including the lack of a British Standard governing the
construction and installation of flueless gas fire appliances. It has
therefore been decided to advise ARGI members not to become involved in
the specifying, installation or repair/maintenance of these appliances
until these concerns have been resolved and an acceptable standard has
been written. For further information please contact ARGI through the
Secretary, details are listed below."


A Corgi registered fitter (although not registered for gas fires) was
recently convicted and imprisoned for manslaughter after incorrectly
fitting a new faulty flueless gas fire. The DIYers buying fires at the
sheds are playing with fire, so to speak.


They should be banned, on efficiency grounds as well as on safety
grounds.

On 30 Nov 2006 15:47:45 -0800 Aidan wrote :
They should be banned, on efficiency grounds as well as on safety
grounds.

Uh - they're 100% efficient (save that they need some extra
ventilation).

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk

Aidan wrote:

If you want to know what the Corgi bunch think of them, read this;

http://www.screwfix.com/talk/thread....7473&tstart=45

Edited highlights;
Slide; "The catalytic converters only last so long, and people are
unlikely to get them replaced when they are spent. This means they lose
the ability to convert CO into CO2, and start killing people."

While I share your concerns about them generally, this point is not
accurate. People have been using unvented gas and paraffin fires for
many years with no catalysts, and though not risk free, lack of
catalyst does not result in death. It removes a layer of safety from
the equation. For death to occur you also would need a fire that burns
incorrectly, and lack of ventilation. I've been in various buildings
that used simple old non vented gas burners, and have always walked out
alive. The atmosphere they create isnt especially pleasant, but not
lethal.


NT

On Dec 1, 12:09 pm, wrote:
While I share your concerns about them generally, this point is not
accurate. People have been using unvented gas and paraffin fires for
many years with no catalysts, and though not risk free, lack of
catalyst does not result in death. NT

More here;
http://www.diynot.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=70741

BG won't install, service or repair them.
ARGI has advised members not to istall or service them.
Many RGIs won't deal with them.

From that thread;
"Most seem to require a permanent 100cm vent.......which will let in a
hell of a draught......so people will block them. I spend a
considerable amount of my time unblocking vital airvents blocked by
tenants, so don't tell me it won't happen cos it will."

If installed correctly you introduce a permanent 100cm2 draught; hardly
energy efficient. And no, I really can't be arsed to check the figure
quoted.
If installed incorrectly, or if they malfunction, then they are unsafe

People have been using unvented gas and paraffin fires for
many years

True They also had leaky, draughty windows, walls and floors. They had
chimneys.

We have uPVC windows & doors, draught-proofing, sheet flooring
(laminate or laminated timber), gypsum plastered walls & ceilings, and
caulking to fill any remaining gaps. Some houses are getting pretty
airtight. Introducing a 2.6kW open flame into some such houses is
bloody ignorant.

Far more sensible to use a fanned flue boiler that draws the cold air
necessary for combustion from outside only as it needs it and which
deposits the products of combustion back outdoors.

I've been in various buildings
that used simple old non vented gas burners, and have always walked out
alive.

You did. So did I.
The lady who was killed by her flueless gas fire didn't and many more
will follow; or not follow.

Aidan wrote:
On Dec 1, 12:09 pm, wrote:

People have been using unvented gas and paraffin fires for
many years

True They also had leaky, draughty windows, walls and floors. They had
chimneys.

good point.


NT

On Nov 30, 11:15 pm, "Phil L" wrote:


Wow.People are often astounded at flueless gas fires, especially with all the
hype surrounding carbon monoxide over the past few years, often with
unfounded fears...this particular model utilises a 'catalytic system', but
even without it, they are completely safe.

An interesting opinion, Phil.
Wasn't it you that told a poster that they had 30 psi gas pressure?

If you want to know what the Corgi bunch think of them, read this;

http://www.screwfix.com/talk/thread....7473&tstart=45

Edited highlights;
Slide; "The catalytic converters only last so long, and people are
unlikely to get them replaced when they are spent. This means they lose
the ability to convert CO into CO2, and start killing people."

ARGI via Letchworth; "The investigation of a considerable body of
evidence by members of ARGI has identified a number of serious 'safety'
concerns including the lack of a British Standard governing the
construction and installation of flueless gas fire appliances. It has
therefore been decided to advise ARGI members not to become involved in
the specifying, installation or repair/maintenance of these appliances
until these concerns have been resolved and an acceptable standard has
been written. For further information please contact ARGI through the
Secretary, details are listed below."


A Corgi registered fitter (although not registered for gas fires) was
recently convicted and imprisoned for manslaughter after incorrectly
fitting a new faulty flueless gas fire. The DIYers buying fires at the
sheds are playing with fire, so to speak.


They should be banned, on efficiency grounds as well as on safety
grounds.

Aidan wrote:
On Nov 30, 11:15 pm, "Phil L" wrote:


Wow.People are often astounded at flueless gas fires, especially
with all the
hype surrounding carbon monoxide over the past few years, often with
unfounded fears...this particular model utilises a 'catalytic
system', but even without it, they are completely safe.

An interesting opinion, Phil.
Wasn't it you that told a poster that they had 30 psi gas pressure?

I said 2bar, which is what the gas is at the mains side of the meter, in
many areas, certainly mine because I know several people who work for
Transco.

If you want to know what the Corgi bunch think of them, read this;

http://www.screwfix.com/talk/thread....7473&tstart=45


Edited highlights;
Slide; "The catalytic converters only last so long, and people are
unlikely to get them replaced when they are spent. This means they
lose the ability to convert CO into CO2, and start killing people."

ARGI via Letchworth; "The investigation of a considerable body of
evidence by members of ARGI has identified a number of serious
'safety' concerns including the lack of a British Standard governing
the construction and installation of flueless gas fire appliances. It
has therefore been decided to advise ARGI members not to become
involved in the specifying, installation or repair/maintenance of
these appliances until these concerns have been resolved and an
acceptable standard has been written. For further information please
contact ARGI through the Secretary, details are listed below."


This is where you're going wrong, I don't care what the 'Corgi bunch' have
to say about them, the manufacturers make them to fit in with current
regulations, which they do, if people are too stupid to fit them correctly
or use them according to instructions then that's up to them, but don't
blame the fire manufacturer for other people's stupidity.

A Corgi registered fitter (although not registered for gas fires) was
recently convicted and imprisoned for manslaughter after incorrectly
fitting a new faulty flueless gas fire. The DIYers buying fires at the
sheds are playing with fire, so to speak.


They should be banned, on efficiency grounds as well as on safety
grounds.

They are incredibly efficient, no chimney to take away 75% of the heat you
see.

On Dec 1, 12:28 am, "Phil L" wrote:


An interesting opinion, Phil.
Wasn't it you that told a poster that they had 30 psi gas pressure?
I said 2bar, which is what the gas is at the mains side of the meter, in
many areas, certainly mine because I know several people who work for
Transco.

No. What you said was;

"You turned the gas on? - what did you expect to happen considering the
gas
is at about 30lbs pressure? "

You did not qualify that statement; it seems you had believed that
there was a normal pressure of 30 psi at the test nipple You were also
confused about gauge and absolute pressures. In short, you know
remarkably little about the topic about which you are posting.


If you want to know what the Corgi bunch think of them, read this;

http://www.screwfix.com/talk/thread.jspa?threadID=47473&tstart=45


I don't care what the 'Corgi bunch' have
to say about them, the manufacturers make them to fit in with current
regulations, which they do, if people are too stupid to fit them correctly
or use them according to instructions then that's up to them, but don't
blame the fire manufacturer for other people's stupidity.

There is no relevant British Standard.

The Corgi bunch and the ARGI bunch are registered gas fitters, some of
whom know something about gas appliances. Every single comment in that
thread was opposed to flueless gas fires, none would fit them.


You know better?
Are you Drivel?


They are incredibly efficient, no chimney to take away 75% of the heat you
see.

No, they are not "incredibly efficient". The fires have no ventilation;
the vitiated air must be replaced with cold, fresh air from outside.
This also applies to the CO2 exhaled by people. The fires may appear to
be efficient to those who are technically naive and who make no
allowance for this.

At best, the IAQ will deteriorate. If the ventilation is inadequate,
the O2 will be consumed and the fire will then emit CO, regardless of
the catalysts and how it was installed.

Aidan wrote:
On Dec 1, 12:28 am, "Phil L" wrote:


An interesting opinion, Phil.
Wasn't it you that told a poster that they had 30 psi gas pressure?
I said 2bar, which is what the gas is at the mains side of the
meter, in many areas, certainly mine because I know several people
who work for Transco.

No. What you said was;

"You turned the gas on? - what did you expect to happen considering
the gas
is at about 30lbs pressure? "

You did not qualify that statement; it seems you had believed that
there was a normal pressure of 30 psi at the test nipple You were also
confused about gauge and absolute pressures. In short, you know
remarkably little about the topic about which you are posting.


Whatever, I'm not getting into some pathetic competition, if you need your
ego massaging, try elsewhere, 'about 30lbs' as opposed to 2 bar - do you
know what a 'bar' is?

If you want to know what the Corgi bunch think of them, read this;

http://www.screwfix.com/talk/thread.jspa?threadID=47473&tstart=45


I don't care what the 'Corgi bunch' have
to say about them, the manufacturers make them to fit in with current
regulations, which they do, if people are too stupid to fit them
correctly or use them according to instructions then that's up to
them, but don't blame the fire manufacturer for other people's
stupidity.

There is no relevant British Standard.

1) do you not imagine that these plans and designs have been passed as safe
by anyone?
2) just because some dweeb doesn't know how to install one without killing
people doesn't make them unsafe
3) there's no relevant british standard for thousands of everyday items,
they don't have to be.


The Corgi bunch and the ARGI bunch are registered gas fitters, some of
whom know something about gas appliances. Every single comment in that
thread was opposed to flueless gas fires, none would fit them.


You know better?

Yes, yes I do.

Are you Drivel?


No I'm not drivel, are you?

They are incredibly efficient, no chimney to take away 75% of the
heat you see.

No, they are not "incredibly efficient". The fires have no
ventilation; the vitiated air must be replaced with cold, fresh air
from outside. This also applies to the CO2 exhaled by people. The
fires may appear to be efficient to those who are technically naive
and who make no allowance for this.

They are incredibly efficient.


At best, the IAQ will deteriorate. If the ventilation is inadequate,
the O2 will be consumed and the fire will then emit CO, regardless of
the catalysts and how it was installed.

Ooohh, big words, you must be really clever, why don't you go in for 'head
of fire design' at some large company, that way you might impress someone,
or are you attempting to redefine the word '****'?

In message
,
D.M. Procida writes

http://www.dmprocida.co.uk/fires/products/382.asp

It's a clueless ****. In other words, all of his efforts to spam
uk.d-i-y will result in everyone killfiling him

"this **** has the ability to **** off the contributors to uk.d-i-y who
believe you should never buy from spammers

Wow.

Dickhead

--
geoff

raden wrote:
In message
,
D.M. Procida writes
http://www.dmprocida.co.uk/fires/products/382.asp

It's a clueless ****. In other words, all of his efforts to spam
uk.d-i-y will result in everyone killfiling him

"this **** has the ability to **** off the contributors to uk.d-i-y


who believe you should never buy from spammers

Wow.

Dickhead


Geoff I think your spam detector is on overload: the OP is a reasonably
regular poster he see http://tinyurl.com/y8o2cp (or
http://groups.google.co.uk/groups?as_q=&num=100&scoring=d&hl=en&as_epq=&as_oq =&as_eq=&as_ugroup=uk.d-i-y&as_usubject=&as_uauthors=procida&lr=&as_drrb=q&a s_qdr=&as_mind=1&as_minm=1&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=1& as_maxm=12&as_maxy=2006&safe=off

David

In message , Lobster
writes
raden wrote:
In message
,
D.M. Procida writes
http://www.dmprocida.co.uk/fires/products/382.asp
It's a clueless ****. In other words, all of his efforts to spam
uk.d-i-y will result in everyone killfiling him
"this **** has the ability to **** off the contributors to uk.d-i-y

who believe you should never buy from spammers
Wow.
Dickhead


Geoff I think your spam detector is on overload: the OP is a reasonably
regular poster he see http://tinyurl.com/y8o2cp (or
http://groups.google.co.uk/groups?as...&hl=en&as_epq=
&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_ugroup=uk.d-i-y&as_usubject=&as_uauthors=procida&lr=&a
s_drrb=q&as_qdr=&as_mind=1&as_minm=1&as_miny=1981 &as_maxd=1&as_maxm=12&a
s_maxy=2006&safe=off

Yes - looks like it

my sincere apologies


--
geoff

raden wrote:

http://www.dmprocida.co.uk/fires/products/382.asp

It's a clueless ****. In other words, all of his efforts to spam
uk.d-i-y will result in everyone killfiling him

"this **** has the ability to **** off the contributors to uk.d-i-y who
believe you should never buy from spammers

Wow.

Dickhead

You're mad, aren't you?

And you can't read. Or format a news article properly.

Daniele

On Fri, 1 Dec 2006 08:57:03 +0000,
(D.M. Procida) wrote:

raden wrote:

http://www.dmprocida.co.uk/fires/products/382.asp

It's a clueless ****. In other words, all of his efforts to spam
uk.d-i-y will result in everyone killfiling him

"this **** has the ability to **** off the contributors to uk.d-i-y who
believe you should never buy from spammers

Wow.

Dickhead

You're mad, aren't you?

And you can't read. Or format a news article properly.

Daniele

Hes mad and by 2am off his face.

On Thu, 30 Nov 2006 23:03:35 +0000, D.M. Procida wrote:

It's a flueless gas fire. In other words, all of the carbon dioxide it
produces will remain in the room, instead of going up the chimney

Excellent idea, that will stop global warming.

On Fri, 1 Dec 2006 10:55:41 +0000, Steve Firth
wrote:

|On Thu, 30 Nov 2006 23:03:35 +0000, D.M. Procida wrote:
|
| It's a flueless gas fire. In other words, all of the carbon dioxide it
| produces will remain in the room, instead of going up the chimney
|
|Excellent idea, that will stop global warming.

Only if the room is hermetically sealed, which it isn't.
The CO2 and H2O produced by the fire eventually gets into the atmosphere,
and adds a tiny amount to Global warming.
--
Dave Fawthrop dave hyphenologist co uk Google Groups is IME the *worst*
method of accessing usenet. GG subscribers would be well advised get a
newsreader, say Agent, and a newsserver, say news.individual.net. These
will allow them: to see only *new* posts, a killfile, and other goodies.

D.M. Procida wrote:
http://www.westcountryfires.co.uk/fires/products/382.asp

It's a flueless gas fire. In other words, all of the carbon dioxide it
produces will remain in the room, instead of going up the chimney to
draw in fresh air from outside.

"the fire has the ability to burn off the odorous and stale air in the
room and efficiently return warm and neutral air back into your
airspace"

Wow.

Daniele

They replace the odours with another set of their own.

The thing that bothers me most about these sort of fires is the condensation
they create. There's an awful lot of water created by them when burning
gas!

D.M. Procida wrote:


"literally breathes life into your room"


If that is true then it must be releasing bacteria into the room, or
something bigger. Sounds nasty to me.

Robert

On Dec 1, 2:31 pm, "Robert Laws" wrote:
D.M. Procida wrote:"literally breathes life into your room"

If that is true then it must be releasing bacteria into the room, or
something bigger. Sounds nasty to me.

It's probably more intelligent that Raden.

MBQ

D.M. Procida wrote:
http://www.westcountryfires.co.uk/fires/products/382.asp

It's a flueless gas fire. In other words, all of the carbon dioxide it
produces will remain in the room, instead of going up the chimney to
draw in fresh air from outside.

"the fire has the ability to burn off the odorous and stale air in the
room and efficiently return warm and neutral air back into your
airspace"

Wow.

Daniele

me and a mate installed one of those a month back. bloke gets home
and declares it's the wrong one, the shop had supplied it to us, blind.
we installed it. it looked rubbish, like his LCD TV on the other wall.

thing is, he's an ex marine with a short fuse and does boxing to
keep himself sharp ... luckily he saw the funny side as far as
we were concerned but the shop who screwed up got it full bore.

dangerous expensive tat, ime.

On Thu, 30 Nov 2006 23:03:35 +0000, D.M. Procida wrote:

http://www.westcountryfires.co.uk/fires/products/382.asp

It's a flueless gas fire. In other words, all of the carbon dioxide it
produces will remain in the room, instead of going up the chimney to
draw in fresh air from outside.

"the fire has the ability to burn off the odorous and stale air in the
room and efficiently return warm and neutral air back into your
airspace"

Wow.

Daniele

This is the sort of technically ill founded hype that "you know who" takes
as gospel true.

Flueless gas fires are not death traps but are subject to a number of
rules so that they don't become so. Principally, the power per unit volume
is set at a low limit, and additional substantial (100cm^2) ventilation is
mandatory. The also have a catalyst to oxide traces of CO to CO2 in the
combustion products.

They are much more expensive than basic open flued and balanced flued
models of comparable rating.

They have the very big disadvantage that they produce a large amount of
water vapour which in some circumstances might be useful in many others
will do nothing to reduce any potential or actual damp problems.

They can hardly be described "as breathing life into your room" unless you
are a spore of A.Niger.

--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html
Gas Fitting Standards Docs he http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFittingStandards

On Dec 1, 11:27 pm, Ed Sirett wrote:
Flueless gas fires are not death traps but are subject to a number of
rules so that they don't become so.
The also have a catalyst to oxide traces of CO to CO2 in the
combustion products.


True. If enough gas fires/ gas boilers/ cars/ bottle openers/whatever
are sold, then a number of people will manage to hurt themselves with
the product.

The concern seems to be that the catalyst needs to be tested and
replaced at regular intervals and the only ventilation opening is
accessible and can be blocked by the users, either accidentally or
intentionally. A chimney/flue is less liable to be blocked. I think
casualties from flueless fires may become unacceptably high.

They're also very inefficient, by the time you've ventilated the flat
enough to disperse the condensation.

They have the very big disadvantage that they produce a large amount of
water vapour which in some circumstances might be useful in many others
will do nothing to reduce any potential or actual damp problems.

True. Strangely, that's not mentioned in the manufacturers' brochures.

They can hardly be described "as breathing life into your room" unless you
are a spore of A.Niger.

That must be the 'black mold' so beloved by American no win/no fee
injury lawyers?

The acid test;
Would you install one in a flat belonging to a member of your family?

If you were given an expensive designer one free, would you install it
in a flat belonging to a member of your family.