Hi All

I've got a 7 year old BMW 530d and it has developed an intermittent starting
issue. Normally, it will start with just a flick of the ignition, but now it
sometimes takes about 5 seconds. It turns over easily, so I don't suspect a
battery problem. The battery however, is one that has a charge indicator,
and it is black (insufficient charge). Of course it should be green, but at
least it isn't orange (dead)!

Before this car I had another BMW diesel. When starting this one, you had to
wait for the instrument panel's pigtail symbol to extinguish before
cranking. This was, as you know, to allow the glow plugs to heat up.

The current car does not have this pigtail symbol, so how does it work? It
still has glow plugs I assume?
My thoughts as to the intermittent starting problem were that there is a
loose connection to or from the glow plug relay. Any other thoughts before
Mr Local 'tie me up and steal my money' BMW Dealer has a look? Oh, and if
anyone knows where said relay is likely to be, that'd be useful too.

PS I've tried some BMW specific online forums, but these seem to have
degenerated since I last used them ('where can I find an M3 logo for my
316?' etc).

Thanks.

Grumps wrote:
Hi All

I've got a 7 year old BMW 530d and it has developed an intermittent starting
issue. Normally, it will start with just a flick of the ignition, but now it
sometimes takes about 5 seconds. It turns over easily, so I don't suspect a
battery problem. The battery however, is one that has a charge indicator,
and it is black (insufficient charge). Of course it should be green, but at
least it isn't orange (dead)!

Before this car I had another BMW diesel. When starting this one, you had to
wait for the instrument panel's pigtail symbol to extinguish before
cranking. This was, as you know, to allow the glow plugs to heat up.

The current car does not have this pigtail symbol, so how does it work? It
still has glow plugs I assume?
My thoughts as to the intermittent starting problem were that there is a
loose connection to or from the glow plug relay. Any other thoughts before
Mr Local 'tie me up and steal my money' BMW Dealer has a look? Oh, and if
anyone knows where said relay is likely to be, that'd be useful too.

PS I've tried some BMW specific online forums, but these seem to have
degenerated since I last used them ('where can I find an M3 logo for my
316?' etc).

Thanks.

This doesn't sound like the problem that I had with a Peugeot diesel
but might be worth checking. It got progressively more difficult to
start and it was diagnosed as an air leak in the fuel system. The pipes
to the fuel filter were renewed but the problem persisted. It got to a
point where I had to prime the filter with the small hand pump every
time I needed to start the car. A new complete fuel filter assembley
cured the problem.

Kevin

Kev wrote:
Grumps wrote:
Hi All

I've got a 7 year old BMW 530d and it has developed an intermittent starting
issue. Normally, it will start with just a flick of the ignition, but now it
sometimes takes about 5 seconds. It turns over easily, so I don't suspect a
battery problem. The battery however, is one that has a charge indicator,
and it is black (insufficient charge). Of course it should be green, but at
least it isn't orange (dead)!

Before this car I had another BMW diesel. When starting this one, you had to
wait for the instrument panel's pigtail symbol to extinguish before
cranking. This was, as you know, to allow the glow plugs to heat up.

The current car does not have this pigtail symbol, so how does it work? It
still has glow plugs I assume?
My thoughts as to the intermittent starting problem were that there is a
loose connection to or from the glow plug relay. Any other thoughts before
Mr Local 'tie me up and steal my money' BMW Dealer has a look? Oh, and if
anyone knows where said relay is likely to be, that'd be useful too.

PS I've tried some BMW specific online forums, but these seem to have
degenerated since I last used them ('where can I find an M3 logo for my
316?' etc).

Thanks.

This doesn't sound like the problem that I had with a Peugeot diesel
but might be worth checking. It got progressively more difficult to
start and it was diagnosed as an air leak in the fuel system. The pipes
to the fuel filter were renewed but the problem persisted. It got to a
point where I had to prime the filter with the small hand pump every
time I needed to start the car. A new complete fuel filter assembley
cured the problem.

Kevin

try alt auto bmw, its chock full of BMW nerds who are more than willing
to help.

However I'd try to switch on the ignition for about 10 seconds , then
starting the car.
If it starts first time then then you may have a blown bulb on the
dash, behind a 'pigtial' symbol.

(My brother in law used to drive a diesel and never bothered to wait
for the light to go out started fine most of the time (he was a plonker
of the highest order however))

Iv'e got a c reg 518 that always starts on the button , so you should
have a few years left yet in her

wrote:
Kev wrote:
Grumps wrote:
Hi All

I've got a 7 year old BMW 530d and it has developed an intermittent
starting issue. Normally, it will start with just a flick of the
ignition, but now it sometimes takes about 5 seconds. It turns over
easily, so I don't suspect a battery problem. The battery however,
is one that has a charge indicator, and it is black (insufficient
charge). Of course it should be green, but at least it isn't orange
(dead)!

Before this car I had another BMW diesel. When starting this one,
you had to wait for the instrument panel's pigtail symbol to
extinguish before cranking. This was, as you know, to allow the
glow plugs to heat up.

The current car does not have this pigtail symbol, so how does it
work? It still has glow plugs I assume?
My thoughts as to the intermittent starting problem were that there
is a loose connection to or from the glow plug relay. Any other
thoughts before Mr Local 'tie me up and steal my money' BMW Dealer
has a look? Oh, and if anyone knows where said relay is likely to
be, that'd be useful too.

PS I've tried some BMW specific online forums, but these seem to
have degenerated since I last used them ('where can I find an M3
logo for my 316?' etc).

Thanks.

This doesn't sound like the problem that I had with a Peugeot diesel
but might be worth checking. It got progressively more difficult to
start and it was diagnosed as an air leak in the fuel system. The
pipes to the fuel filter were renewed but the problem persisted. It
got to a point where I had to prime the filter with the small hand
pump every time I needed to start the car. A new complete fuel
filter assembley cured the problem.

Kevin

try alt auto bmw, its chock full of BMW nerds who are more than
willing to help.

However I'd try to switch on the ignition for about 10 seconds , then
starting the car.
If it starts first time then then you may have a blown bulb on the
dash, behind a 'pigtial' symbol.

(My brother in law used to drive a diesel and never bothered to wait
for the light to go out started fine most of the time (he was a
plonker of the highest order however))

Iv'e got a c reg 518 that always starts on the button , so you should
have a few years left yet in her

Thanks, I'll try that ng.
I have tried waiting before cranking; makes no difference.
And there really isn't a pigtail indicator.

Grumps wrote:
wrote:
Kev wrote:
Grumps wrote:
Hi All

I've got a 7 year old BMW 530d and it has developed an intermittent
starting issue. Normally, it will start with just a flick of the
ignition, but now it sometimes takes about 5 seconds. It turns over
easily, so I don't suspect a battery problem. The battery however,
is one that has a charge indicator, and it is black (insufficient
charge). Of course it should be green, but at least it isn't orange
(dead)!

Before this car I had another BMW diesel. When starting this one,
you had to wait for the instrument panel's pigtail symbol to
extinguish before cranking. This was, as you know, to allow the
glow plugs to heat up.

The current car does not have this pigtail symbol, so how does it
work? It still has glow plugs I assume?
My thoughts as to the intermittent starting problem were that there
is a loose connection to or from the glow plug relay. Any other
thoughts before Mr Local 'tie me up and steal my money' BMW Dealer
has a look? Oh, and if anyone knows where said relay is likely to
be, that'd be useful too.

PS I've tried some BMW specific online forums, but these seem to
have degenerated since I last used them ('where can I find an M3
logo for my 316?' etc).

Thanks.

This doesn't sound like the problem that I had with a Peugeot diesel
but might be worth checking. It got progressively more difficult to
start and it was diagnosed as an air leak in the fuel system. The
pipes to the fuel filter were renewed but the problem persisted. It
got to a point where I had to prime the filter with the small hand
pump every time I needed to start the car. A new complete fuel
filter assembley cured the problem.

Kevin

try alt auto bmw, its chock full of BMW nerds who are more than
willing to help.

However I'd try to switch on the ignition for about 10 seconds , then
starting the car.
If it starts first time then then you may have a blown bulb on the
dash, behind a 'pigtial' symbol.

(My brother in law used to drive a diesel and never bothered to wait
for the light to go out started fine most of the time (he was a
plonker of the highest order however))

Iv'e got a c reg 518 that always starts on the button , so you should
have a few years left yet in her

Thanks, I'll try that ng.
I have tried waiting before cranking; makes no difference.
And there really isn't a pigtail indicator.

are you sure ?
even new diesels need thier plugs warmed first (and have a pigtail
light) ....
Still live and learn .....

wrote:
Grumps wrote:
wrote:
Kev wrote:
Grumps wrote:
Hi All

I've got a 7 year old BMW 530d and it has developed an
intermittent starting issue. Normally, it will start with just a
flick of the ignition, but now it sometimes takes about 5
seconds. It turns over easily, so I don't suspect a battery
problem. The battery however, is one that has a charge indicator,
and it is black (insufficient charge). Of course it should be
green, but at least it isn't orange (dead)!

Before this car I had another BMW diesel. When starting this one,
you had to wait for the instrument panel's pigtail symbol to
extinguish before cranking. This was, as you know, to allow the
glow plugs to heat up.

The current car does not have this pigtail symbol, so how does it
work? It still has glow plugs I assume?
My thoughts as to the intermittent starting problem were that
there is a loose connection to or from the glow plug relay. Any
other thoughts before Mr Local 'tie me up and steal my money' BMW
Dealer has a look? Oh, and if anyone knows where said relay is
likely to be, that'd be useful too.

PS I've tried some BMW specific online forums, but these seem to
have degenerated since I last used them ('where can I find an M3
logo for my 316?' etc).

Thanks.

This doesn't sound like the problem that I had with a Peugeot
diesel but might be worth checking. It got progressively more
difficult to start and it was diagnosed as an air leak in the fuel
system. The pipes to the fuel filter were renewed but the problem
persisted. It got to a point where I had to prime the filter with
the small hand pump every time I needed to start the car. A new
complete fuel filter assembley cured the problem.

Kevin

try alt auto bmw, its chock full of BMW nerds who are more than
willing to help.

However I'd try to switch on the ignition for about 10 seconds ,
then starting the car.
If it starts first time then then you may have a blown bulb on the
dash, behind a 'pigtial' symbol.

(My brother in law used to drive a diesel and never bothered to wait
for the light to go out started fine most of the time (he was a
plonker of the highest order however))

Iv'e got a c reg 518 that always starts on the button , so you
should have a few years left yet in her

Thanks, I'll try that ng.
I have tried waiting before cranking; makes no difference.
And there really isn't a pigtail indicator.

are you sure ?
even new diesels need thier plugs warmed first (and have a pigtail
light) ....
Still live and learn .....

Maybe they warm up much quicker so they don't bother with the light.
My old Corsa and Current 206 Van both have pigtails. My mate's Mitsubishi
and my FIL's Merc don't.

I thought it was older indirect injection diesels with conventional
timed pumps that had the greatest need for glow plugs.

Direct injection less requirement.

Common rail systems less still.

So they may have glowplugs, but the warming time may be very short.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glow_plug

And there really isn't a pigtail indicator.

are you sure ?
even new diesels need thier plugs warmed first (and have a pigtail
light) ....

Modern diesels often run the pump and glowplugs to "prime" the engine when
you unlock the doors, so there is no need for a light. It also means that
starting can sometimes be slightly more difficult if you wait too long
before starting the engine.

It is also why, on a modern diesel, if you accidentally fill with petrol, do
ABSOLUTELY NOTHING until the fuel can be pumped out. DO NOT touch the keys
or attempt to lock or unlock the doors. Otherwise, you can find your petrol
has caused several thousand pounds worth of damage to the fuel pump.

Christian.

Christian McArdle wrote:
And there really isn't a pigtail indicator.

are you sure ?
even new diesels need thier plugs warmed first (and have a pigtail
light) ....

Modern diesels often run the pump and glowplugs to "prime" the engine
when you unlock the doors, so there is no need for a light. It also
means that starting can sometimes be slightly more difficult if you
wait too long before starting the engine.

Hmm. I wonder. That would certainly be the case when it failed to start when
I tried a week ago. We were sat in the car with the engine off for ages,
then tried to start it. But surely the manufacturers know this, and would
have something 'extra' when starting in this situation.

It is also why, on a modern diesel, if you accidentally fill with
petrol, do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING until the fuel can be pumped out. DO
NOT touch the keys or attempt to lock or unlock the doors. Otherwise,
you can find your petrol has caused several thousand pounds worth of
damage to the fuel pump.
Christian.

Grumps wrote:
Hi All

I've got a 7 year old BMW 530d and it has developed an intermittent starting
issue. Normally, it will start with just a flick of the ignition, but now it
sometimes takes about 5 seconds. It turns over easily, so I don't suspect a
battery problem. The battery however, is one that has a charge indicator,
and it is black (insufficient charge). Of course it should be green, but at
least it isn't orange (dead)!

Before this car I had another BMW diesel. When starting this one, you had to
wait for the instrument panel's pigtail symbol to extinguish before
cranking. This was, as you know, to allow the glow plugs to heat up.

The current car does not have this pigtail symbol, so how does it work? It
still has glow plugs I assume?
My thoughts as to the intermittent starting problem were that there is a
loose connection to or from the glow plug relay. Any other thoughts before
Mr Local 'tie me up and steal my money' BMW Dealer has a look? Oh, and if
anyone knows where said relay is likely to be, that'd be useful too.

PS I've tried some BMW specific online forums, but these seem to have
degenerated since I last used them ('where can I find an M3 logo for my
316?' etc).

Thanks.


Our Freelander also is difficult to start on a low battery. BMW diesel
engine. I suspect the glow plugs don't glow as bright..

Hmm. I wonder. That would certainly be the case when it failed to start
when I tried a week ago. We were sat in the car with the engine off for
ages, then tried to start it. But surely the manufacturers know this, and
would have something 'extra' when starting in this situation.

I imagine turning the ignition on and waiting would give it another boost.
If not, lock and unlock the doors.

Christian.

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
...


It is also why, on a modern diesel, if you accidentally fill with petrol,
do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING until the fuel can be pumped out. DO NOT touch the
keys or attempt to lock or unlock the doors. Otherwise, you can find your
petrol has caused several thousand pounds worth of damage to the fuel
pump.


How does petrol damage the fuel pump?

"Grumps" wrote in message
...
Hi All

I've got a 7 year old BMW 530d and it has developed an intermittent
starting issue. Normally, it will start with just a flick of the ignition,
but now it sometimes takes about 5 seconds. It turns over easily, so I
don't suspect a battery problem. The battery however, is one that has a
charge indicator, and it is black (insufficient charge). Of course it
should be green, but at least it isn't orange (dead)!

Before this car I had another BMW diesel. When starting this one, you had
to wait for the instrument panel's pigtail symbol to extinguish before
cranking. This was, as you know, to allow the glow plugs to heat up.

The current car does not have this pigtail symbol, so how does it work? It
still has glow plugs I assume?
My thoughts as to the intermittent starting problem were that there is a
loose connection to or from the glow plug relay. Any other thoughts before
Mr Local 'tie me up and steal my money' BMW Dealer has a look? Oh, and if
anyone knows where said relay is likely to be, that'd be useful too.

PS I've tried some BMW specific online forums, but these seem to have
degenerated since I last used them ('where can I find an M3 logo for my
316?' etc).

Thanks.

I'm about 20 years out of date, however: You shouldn't assume that your glow
plugs, heaters, etc... are (all) ok. Are they connected in series, or in
parallel. If connected in series, one faulty one (open circuit) will affect
the others; also a series resistance assembly may be used (for 4-cylinder
engines), which could be faulty.
Check that each heater has the right voltage on it (12v. on a parallel
connection, and 2v. on a series one).
How much trouble is it to take them out?
Test them electrically, whilst out of the engine; keeping the test to a
minimum to avoid overheating. Keep in mind that the voltage for series
connected ones will be lower (2v.).
It's a good habit to take them out occasionally for a check (best prior to
the winter).

Sylvain.

How does petrol damage the fuel pump?

The pump is an extremely sensitive precision instrument that gets the fuel
up to about 1800 bar. This is a VERY high pressure. Putting the wrong fuel
it will seriously throw the pump off balance.

Note that on a common rail engine, getting the pump up to pressure is much
more important to starting than glow plugs. The high pressure and efficiency
of atomisation means that common rail engines need very little temperature
to start, and may not even have glow plugs at all. However, they won't work
properly until the pressure has stabilised, so still need a head start,
unlike a petrol engine.

Christian.

How does petrol damage the fuel pump?

Diesel fuel is also the pump lubricant. Left alone, pumps are
ultra-reliable - but if damaged replacement is expensive.

"dennis@home" wrote in message
k...

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
...


It is also why, on a modern diesel, if you accidentally fill with petrol,
do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING until the fuel can be pumped out. DO NOT touch the
keys or attempt to lock or unlock the doors. Otherwise, you can find your
petrol has caused several thousand pounds worth of damage to the fuel
pump.


How does petrol damage the fuel pump?

A diesel pump is designed to run on diesel fuel oil which _lubricates_ the
working parts. High hydraulic pressures are also involved, which require
very close tolerance parts to be fitted. The smallest amount of wear can be
detrimental to the proper working of the pump.
Petrol is a good solvent. I'm sure that you can work the rest out.

Sylvain.

On Thu, 24 Aug 2006 11:22:40 +0100, "Christian McArdle"
wrote:

How does petrol damage the fuel pump?

The pump is an extremely sensitive precision instrument that gets the fuel
up to about 1800 bar.

ITYM 1800 PSI, or abour 120 bar.



--
Regards, Paul Herber, Sandrila Ltd. http://www.pherber.com/
Electronics for Visio http://www.electronics.sandrila.co.uk/

The pump is an extremely sensitive precision instrument that gets the
fuel up to about 1800 bar.

ITYM 1800 PSI, or abour 120 bar.

Nope. 1800 bar, or about 27,000 PSI. Very dangerous stuff. A leak can squirt
out with such force that it can slice right into the human body.

Different designs use different pressures. They're pretty much all above
1000 bar, and some new designs are now edging 2000 bar.

Christian.

wrote in message
ups.com...
How does petrol damage the fuel pump?

Diesel fuel is also the pump lubricant. Left alone, pumps are
ultra-reliable - but if damaged replacement is expensive.

It's also worth noting the following:
Always change the fuel filters regularly, and clean the lift pump gauze
filter. And to be even safer, check for water in your fuel tank.

Sylvain.

On Thu, 24 Aug 2006 13:11:21 +0100, "Christian McArdle"
wrote:

The pump is an extremely sensitive precision instrument that gets the
fuel up to about 1800 bar.

ITYM 1800 PSI, or abour 120 bar.

Nope. 1800 bar, or about 27,000 PSI. Very dangerous stuff. A leak can squirt
out with such force that it can slice right into the human body.

Different designs use different pressures. They're pretty much all above
1000 bar, and some new designs are now edging 2000 bar.

Well, well, well, I wouldn't have beliived it but I;ve now found such
on google. Had a suitable question been on WWTBAM I would have got the
answer wrong.


--
Regards, Paul Herber, Sandrila Ltd. http://www.pherber.com/
Electronics for Visio http://www.electronics.sandrila.co.uk/

Hi

I dont know if anyone has mentioned this before but if it is a deasil
the glow plugs need to suck quite allot of batery power for them to
heat up before the fuel will light and start the engin if your battery
is not in its best condition tha is the first place I would look if you
notice the baterys on deasils are always heavy duty for this reason
compared to a pertrol engineed car hense why they tend to cost more to
replace (just the joys of a deasil) try to get the batery charged over
night or see if you friendly garage will test out the problem with a
new battery if you have a friendly local machanic they will do this for
free as if you need a new battery they would hopwe for the sale.

I hope this helps


Paul Herber wrote:
On Thu, 24 Aug 2006 13:11:21 +0100, "Christian McArdle"
wrote:

The pump is an extremely sensitive precision instrument that gets the
fuel up to about 1800 bar.

ITYM 1800 PSI, or abour 120 bar.

Nope. 1800 bar, or about 27,000 PSI. Very dangerous stuff. A leak can squirt
out with such force that it can slice right into the human body.

Different designs use different pressures. They're pretty much all above
1000 bar, and some new designs are now edging 2000 bar.

Well, well, well, I wouldn't have beliived it but I;ve now found such
on google. Had a suitable question been on WWTBAM I would have got the
answer wrong.


--
Regards, Paul Herber, Sandrila Ltd. http://www.pherber.com/
Electronics for Visio http://www.electronics.sandrila.co.uk/

"squelchy" wrote in message
oups.com...
Hi

I dont know if anyone has mentioned this before but if it is a deasil
the glow plugs need to suck quite allot of batery power for them to
heat up before the fuel will light and start the engin if your battery
is not in its best condition tha is the first place I would look if you
notice the baterys on deasils are always heavy duty for this reason
compared to a pertrol engineed car hense why they tend to cost more to
replace (just the joys of a deasil) try to get the batery charged over
night or see if you friendly garage will test out the problem with a
new battery if you have a friendly local machanic they will do this for
free as if you need a new battery they would hopwe for the sale.


Batteries for diesel engines are heavier duty because the compression ratio
for diesel engines is significantly higher than that for petrol engines, and
this requires more torque.


--
Bob Mannix
(anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not)

squelchy wrote:
Paul Herber wrote:
On Thu, 24 Aug 2006 13:11:21 +0100, "Christian McArdle"
wrote:

The pump is an extremely sensitive precision instrument that gets
the fuel up to about 1800 bar.

ITYM 1800 PSI, or abour 120 bar.

Nope. 1800 bar, or about 27,000 PSI. Very dangerous stuff. A leak
can squirt out with such force that it can slice right into the
human body.

Different designs use different pressures. They're pretty much all
above 1000 bar, and some new designs are now edging 2000 bar.

Well, well, well, I wouldn't have beliived it but I;ve now found such
on google. Had a suitable question been on WWTBAM I would have got
the answer wrong.


--
Regards, Paul Herber, Sandrila Ltd. http://www.pherber.com/
Electronics for Visio http://www.electronics.sandrila.co.uk/
Hi

I dont know if anyone has mentioned this before but if it is a deasil
the glow plugs need to suck quite allot of batery power for them to
heat up before the fuel will light and start the engin if your battery
is not in its best condition tha is the first place I would look if
you notice the baterys on deasils are always heavy duty for this
reason compared to a pertrol engineed car hense why they tend to cost
more to replace (just the joys of a deasil) try to get the batery
charged over night or see if you friendly garage will test out the
problem with a new battery if you have a friendly local machanic they
will do this for free as if you need a new battery they would hopwe
for the sale.

I hope this helps

Thanks for the reply.
Problem is, the car starts normally 99% of the time. Only occasionally will
it take longer.
I put the battery on charge last night for about 12 hours. It was still not
fully charged by morning. Even so, I'm not sure it is the battery.
How does one test the battery? (the engine does turn over easily for
sustained periods)

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Grumps wrote:
squelchy wrote:
Paul Herber wrote:
On Thu, 24 Aug 2006 13:11:21 +0100, "Christian McArdle"
wrote:

The pump is an extremely sensitive precision instrument that
gets the fuel up to about 1800 bar.
ITYM 1800 PSI, or abour 120 bar.
Nope. 1800 bar, or about 27,000 PSI. Very dangerous stuff. A leak
can squirt out with such force that it can slice right into the
human body.

Different designs use different pressures. They're pretty much all
above 1000 bar, and some new designs are now edging 2000 bar.
Well, well, well, I wouldn't have beliived it but I;ve now found
such on google. Had a suitable question been on WWTBAM I would
have got the answer wrong.


--
Regards, Paul Herber, Sandrila Ltd. http://www.pherber.com/
Electronics for Visio http://www.electronics.sandrila.co.uk/
Hi

I dont know if anyone has mentioned this before but if it is a
deasil the glow plugs need to suck quite allot of batery power for
them to heat up before the fuel will light and start the engin if
your battery is not in its best condition tha is the first place I
would look if you notice the baterys on deasils are always heavy
duty for this reason compared to a pertrol engineed car hense why
they tend to cost more to replace (just the joys of a deasil) try
to get the batery charged over night or see if you friendly garage
will test out the problem with a new battery if you have a friendly
local machanic they will do this for free as if you need a new
battery they would hopwe for the sale.

I hope this helps

Thanks for the reply.
Problem is, the car starts normally 99% of the time. Only
occasionally will it take longer.
I put the battery on charge last night for about 12 hours. It was
still not fully charged by morning. Even so, I'm not sure it is the
battery. How does one test the battery? (the engine does turn over easily
for
sustained periods)


Yeah. Ive had three batteries gpo on me this year.

The symptoms are that they take forever to charge, won't start the car
properly even when they are charged, and all sorts of ancillary
equipment goes haywire..if te battery is 5 years old I'd simply
replace it before looking any deeper. As I said my wife's Freelander
diesel with a BMW engine would barely start even when jumped..new
batery and it now springs to life. They don;t regulate te voltage to
teh glow plugs..and I suppose thats what it was.

Well, perhaps it is only the battery. Nothing lasts forever.
It just seems funny that the engine cranks without any effort.

I had a guy with an old diesel tractor working here for a while. His
method was to remove a bit of air intake, tip a cupful of diesel into
the air intake, and if the glo plug failed to set it alight, use a bit
of lit newspaper. Then cranking that lot over sucked raw flames into
the cylinders, and it usually belched and rumbled its way to life with
clouds of black smoke.

Well, I'm not quite at that stage yet.

I wouldn't treat an engine that way myself tho...

Needs must, as they say.

Grumps wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Grumps wrote:
squelchy wrote:
Paul Herber wrote:
On Thu, 24 Aug 2006 13:11:21 +0100, "Christian McArdle"
wrote:

The pump is an extremely sensitive precision instrument that
gets the fuel up to about 1800 bar.
ITYM 1800 PSI, or abour 120 bar.
Nope. 1800 bar, or about 27,000 PSI. Very dangerous stuff. A leak
can squirt out with such force that it can slice right into the
human body.

Different designs use different pressures. They're pretty much all
above 1000 bar, and some new designs are now edging 2000 bar.
Well, well, well, I wouldn't have beliived it but I;ve now found
such on google. Had a suitable question been on WWTBAM I would
have got the answer wrong.


--
Regards, Paul Herber, Sandrila Ltd. http://www.pherber.com/
Electronics for Visio http://www.electronics.sandrila.co.uk/
Hi

I dont know if anyone has mentioned this before but if it is a
deasil the glow plugs need to suck quite allot of batery power for
them to heat up before the fuel will light and start the engin if
your battery is not in its best condition tha is the first place I
would look if you notice the baterys on deasils are always heavy
duty for this reason compared to a pertrol engineed car hense why
they tend to cost more to replace (just the joys of a deasil) try
to get the batery charged over night or see if you friendly garage
will test out the problem with a new battery if you have a friendly
local machanic they will do this for free as if you need a new
battery they would hopwe for the sale.

I hope this helps
Thanks for the reply.
Problem is, the car starts normally 99% of the time. Only
occasionally will it take longer.
I put the battery on charge last night for about 12 hours. It was
still not fully charged by morning. Even so, I'm not sure it is the
battery. How does one test the battery? (the engine does turn over easily
for
sustained periods)


Yeah. Ive had three batteries gpo on me this year.

The symptoms are that they take forever to charge, won't start the car
properly even when they are charged, and all sorts of ancillary
equipment goes haywire..if te battery is 5 years old I'd simply
replace it before looking any deeper. As I said my wife's Freelander
diesel with a BMW engine would barely start even when jumped..new
batery and it now springs to life. They don;t regulate te voltage to
teh glow plugs..and I suppose thats what it was.

Well, perhaps it is only the battery. Nothing lasts forever.
It just seems funny that the engine cranks without any effort.

The point is that the battery should be something you can fit for 50
quid yourself, and if it fixes it, well and good. If not when you DO
take it into BMW, at lest thats something they won;t be able to charge
you 200 quid to fit ...the wifes car also turned over.a bit lazily..but
wouldn't start..when we jumped it, it turned over and DID start, but it
was a few seconds spluttering before it finally fired on all cylinders,
Now with a new battery, it starts every time..perfectly.

The other things you should ALWAYS do are check the fuel filter and the
presence of water in the diesel tank. Some vehicles have a warning
light for that..rough running and a white smoky output are symptoms.
Again these are cheap things to do, and once done eliminate another few
potential culprits.

Diesels by and large HAVE to be made to such tight tolerances to work at
all, that the wear rates are extremely low. 200K miles without any major
parts replacement and not even a valve regrind is the norm for a diesel
ENGINE.

After that, its probably new bearings, injectors, fuel pump and valve
regrind time.




I had a guy with an old diesel tractor working here for a while. His
method was to remove a bit of air intake, tip a cupful of diesel into
the air intake, and if the glo plug failed to set it alight, use a bit
of lit newspaper. Then cranking that lot over sucked raw flames into
the cylinders, and it usually belched and rumbled its way to life with
clouds of black smoke.

Well, I'm not quite at that stage yet.

I wouldn't treat an engine that way myself tho...

Needs must, as they say.


Mmm. That one also ended up with water in the tank...drained it, fitted
new fuel filter (I dinnt know you ad ter do that mate) and fuel, bled
the bloody thing (no fun at all) poured a half pint into the intakes,
lit it and it was running well when he took it back to warwickshire..

dennis@home wrote:
"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
...

It is also why, on a modern diesel, if you accidentally fill with petrol,
do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING until the fuel can be pumped out. DO NOT touch the
keys or attempt to lock or unlock the doors. Otherwise, you can find your
petrol has caused several thousand pounds worth of damage to the fuel
pump.


How does petrol damage the fuel pump?



Petrol will damage the fuel *injection* pump. The fuel injection pump
operates at very high pressures, and is built to very fine tolerances.
It relies on the fuel for lubrication; petrol doesn't fit the bill. (BSI
BS EN ISO 12156-1 describes the assessment of diesel fuel lubricity, and
I seem to remember that there is or used to be a BS specifying among
other things the minimum lubricity for diesel fuel sold as such (as
opposed to central heating oil, for example.))

The very high pressures also account for the precautions taken to remove
water from the diesel before it reaches the injection pump; water in
diesel fuel can easily become acidic, and at high pressures will rapidly
dissolve pump parts and ruin tolerances.

In message , OxSc
writes
Petrol will damage the fuel *injection* pump. The fuel injection pump
operates at very high pressures, and is built to very fine tolerances.
It relies on the fuel for lubrication; petrol doesn't fit the bill.
Speaking as someone who used to control field engineers and having had
to arrange for their diesel tanks to be emptied and refilled with diesel
on more than one occasion (all within 15,000 miles of new) after the
muppets filled them with unleaded and drove off, we never had a single
incident that cost us more than two tanks of fuel and the garage costs
for pumping out and disposal of the fuel (how much does it cost to put
the fuel in a breakdown truck?). We ran the cars for over 100,000 miles
and never replaced a pump, in fact we never replaced anything in the
fuel system apart from the filters. 13 Peugeot 406HDIs, one Renault
Espace 2.2DT and an Audi A6 1.9Tdi.



--
Clint Sharp

Hi

the main reason I thought it could be the battery is due to the fact
that I have had this problem happen to me with a petrol car as well it
seemed that the engin was turning over fine with out any run down but
it terned out that the batery conections where lose only slightly and
because this slight loss of power it caused the engin to not start
first time occationaly like in your case as has already been sied the
compression rate on a deisal is higher there for it needs more juise to
get it going and to heat up the glow plugs if your battery is chargeing
properly it will not always start properly I would put it down to this
first before taking it to the BMW people that will charge you a fortune
to just open up the bonnet (from previous main dealer experiance)
Clint Sharp wrote:
In message , OxSc
writes
Petrol will damage the fuel *injection* pump. The fuel injection pump
operates at very high pressures, and is built to very fine tolerances.
It relies on the fuel for lubrication; petrol doesn't fit the bill.
Speaking as someone who used to control field engineers and having had
to arrange for their diesel tanks to be emptied and refilled with diesel
on more than one occasion (all within 15,000 miles of new) after the
muppets filled them with unleaded and drove off, we never had a single
incident that cost us more than two tanks of fuel and the garage costs
for pumping out and disposal of the fuel (how much does it cost to put
the fuel in a breakdown truck?). We ran the cars for over 100,000 miles
and never replaced a pump, in fact we never replaced anything in the
fuel system apart from the filters. 13 Peugeot 406HDIs, one Renault
Espace 2.2DT and an Audi A6 1.9Tdi.



--
Clint Sharp

squelchy wrote:
In message , OxSc
writes
Petrol will damage the fuel *injection* pump. The fuel injection
pump operates at very high pressures, and is built to very fine
tolerances. It relies on the fuel for lubrication; petrol doesn't
fit the bill.
Speaking as someone who used to control field engineers and having
had to arrange for their diesel tanks to be emptied and refilled
with diesel on more than one occasion (all within 15,000 miles of
new) after the muppets filled them with unleaded and drove off, we
never had a single incident that cost us more than two tanks of fuel
and the garage costs for pumping out and disposal of the fuel (how
much does it cost to put the fuel in a breakdown truck?). We ran the
cars for over 100,000 miles and never replaced a pump, in fact we
never replaced anything in the fuel system apart from the filters.
13 Peugeot 406HDIs, one Renault Espace 2.2DT and an Audi A6 1.9Tdi.

Hi

the main reason I thought it could be the battery is due to the fact
that I have had this problem happen to me with a petrol car as well it
seemed that the engin was turning over fine with out any run down but
it terned out that the batery conections where lose only slightly and
because this slight loss of power it caused the engin to not start
first time occationaly like in your case as has already been sied the
compression rate on a deisal is higher there for it needs more juise
to get it going and to heat up the glow plugs if your battery is
chargeing properly it will not always start properly I would put it
down to this first before taking it to the BMW people that will
charge you a fortune to just open up the bonnet (from previous main
dealer experiance) Clint Sharp wrote:


OK. Our local garage (not BMW main dealer) has checked all possible issues
and has found nothing! Of course, the engine starts perfectly at the moment.
One thing they noticed was that the fuel filter is new(ish), and wondered if
there was a fault with this or its fitting. How exactly does a fuel filter
work, and what would cause it to sometimes stop the engine from starting?

Grumps wrote:
squelchy wrote:
In message , OxSc
writes
Petrol will damage the fuel *injection* pump. The fuel injection
pump operates at very high pressures, and is built to very fine
tolerances. It relies on the fuel for lubrication; petrol doesn't
fit the bill.
Speaking as someone who used to control field engineers and having
had to arrange for their diesel tanks to be emptied and refilled
with diesel on more than one occasion (all within 15,000 miles of
new) after the muppets filled them with unleaded and drove off, we
never had a single incident that cost us more than two tanks of fuel
and the garage costs for pumping out and disposal of the fuel (how
much does it cost to put the fuel in a breakdown truck?). We ran the
cars for over 100,000 miles and never replaced a pump, in fact we
never replaced anything in the fuel system apart from the filters.
13 Peugeot 406HDIs, one Renault Espace 2.2DT and an Audi A6 1.9Tdi.

Hi

the main reason I thought it could be the battery is due to the fact
that I have had this problem happen to me with a petrol car as well it
seemed that the engin was turning over fine with out any run down but
it terned out that the batery conections where lose only slightly and
because this slight loss of power it caused the engin to not start
first time occationaly like in your case as has already been sied the
compression rate on a deisal is higher there for it needs more juise
to get it going and to heat up the glow plugs if your battery is
chargeing properly it will not always start properly I would put it
down to this first before taking it to the BMW people that will
charge you a fortune to just open up the bonnet (from previous main
dealer experiance) Clint Sharp wrote:


OK. Our local garage (not BMW main dealer) has checked all possible issues
and has found nothing! Of course, the engine starts perfectly at the moment.
One thing they noticed was that the fuel filter is new(ish), and wondered if
there was a fault with this or its fitting. How exactly does a fuel filter
work, and what would cause it to sometimes stop the engine from starting?


Didn't see the beginning of this and I'm no mechanic but, whenever I've
had starting problems, it's always been the glow plugs. Cheap and
usually easy to fit

Stuart Noble wrote:
Grumps wrote:
squelchy wrote:
In message , OxSc
writes
Petrol will damage the fuel *injection* pump. The fuel injection
pump operates at very high pressures, and is built to very fine
tolerances. It relies on the fuel for lubrication; petrol doesn't
fit the bill.
Speaking as someone who used to control field engineers and having
had to arrange for their diesel tanks to be emptied and refilled
with diesel on more than one occasion (all within 15,000 miles of
new) after the muppets filled them with unleaded and drove off, we
never had a single incident that cost us more than two tanks of
fuel and the garage costs for pumping out and disposal of the fuel
(how much does it cost to put the fuel in a breakdown truck?). We
ran the cars for over 100,000 miles and never replaced a pump, in
fact we never replaced anything in the fuel system apart from the
filters. 13 Peugeot 406HDIs, one Renault Espace 2.2DT and an Audi
A6 1.9Tdi.
Hi

the main reason I thought it could be the battery is due to the fact
that I have had this problem happen to me with a petrol car as well
it seemed that the engin was turning over fine with out any run
down but it terned out that the batery conections where lose only
slightly and because this slight loss of power it caused the engin
to not start first time occationaly like in your case as has
already been sied the compression rate on a deisal is higher there
for it needs more juise to get it going and to heat up the glow
plugs if your battery is chargeing properly it will not always
start properly I would put it down to this first before taking it
to the BMW people that will charge you a fortune to just open up
the bonnet (from previous main dealer experiance) Clint Sharp wrote:


OK. Our local garage (not BMW main dealer) has checked all possible
issues and has found nothing! Of course, the engine starts perfectly
at the moment. One thing they noticed was that the fuel filter is
new(ish), and wondered if there was a fault with this or its
fitting. How exactly does a fuel filter work, and what would cause
it to sometimes stop the engine from starting?
Didn't see the beginning of this and I'm no mechanic but, whenever
I've had starting problems, it's always been the glow plugs. Cheap and
usually easy to fit

Indeed. Our old BMW had constant starting problems which was fixed with a
new glow-plug set (but I don't remember them being cheap or easy to fit).
The current car has just had the ok on its plugs.

"Grumps" wrote in message
...
squelchy wrote:

snip


OK. Our local garage (not BMW main dealer) has checked all possible issues
and has found nothing! Of course, the engine starts perfectly at the
moment.


One thing they noticed was that the fuel filter is new(ish), and wondered
if there was a fault with this or its fitting.

That's a possibility. I would check it out.

How exactly does a fuel filter work, and what would cause it to sometimes
stop the engine from starting?


The frequent enemy of a diesel engine fuel system is _air entering it_.
In the case of filters, there usually is a round detachable housing which is
sealed by a rubber ring. You should _always_ replace that ring (supplied
with the new filter element). Sometimes several different rings are
supplied, and you should compare the new one with the old one.
This rubber ring is not always easy to fit, and I always used a mirror to
make sure that it was seated properly. The assembly that the fuel element
housing fits to has usually an input connection and an output one. These
don't normally give problems, but _sometimes_ they do (they allow air to
come in). Cleaning these joints with petrol, drying carefully, and using
some jointing compound (red hermetite is ok) on all the threaded parts,
etc.. will usually work. I don't normally endorse using jointing compound,
unless a part is unobtainable or excessively costly.

Sylvain.

Sylvain.

Sylvain VAN DER WALDE wrote:
"Grumps" wrote in message
...
squelchy wrote:

snip


OK. Our local garage (not BMW main dealer) has checked all possible
issues and has found nothing! Of course, the engine starts perfectly
at the moment.


One thing they noticed was that the fuel filter is new(ish), and
wondered if there was a fault with this or its fitting.

That's a possibility. I would check it out.

How exactly does a fuel filter work, and what would cause it to
sometimes stop the engine from starting?


The frequent enemy of a diesel engine fuel system is _air entering
it_. In the case of filters, there usually is a round detachable housing
which is sealed by a rubber ring. You should _always_ replace that
ring (supplied with the new filter element). Sometimes several
different rings are supplied, and you should compare the new one with
the old one. This rubber ring is not always easy to fit, and I always used
a
mirror to make sure that it was seated properly. The assembly that
the fuel element housing fits to has usually an input connection and
an output one. These don't normally give problems, but _sometimes_
they do (they allow air to come in). Cleaning these joints with
petrol, drying carefully, and using some jointing compound (red
hermetite is ok) on all the threaded parts, etc.. will usually work.
I don't normally endorse using jointing compound, unless a part is
unobtainable or excessively costly.

Hmm. The BMW main dealer must've replaced this filter. You'd think they'd
know how to do it!
However, I'll get them to check.

Would this "fitting error" (if it is an error) cause an intermittent
starting problem? The engine runs perfect otherwise.

wrote:


are you sure ?
even new diesels need thier plugs warmed first (and have a pigtail
light) ....

Neighbour's newish-jag which is powered by some awesome twin-turbo Vee
diesel does not have a glowplug symbol. He was warned (by Jaguar) that
if he inadvertently fills it with petrol he must _under no
circumstances_ even unlock the vehicle. Apparently it _does_ have some
sort of preheat system, but it commences as soon as the doors are
unlocked, thus there is no embarrassing pause once you have jumped into
your sleek executive conveyance!

Richard

On Fri, 25 Aug 2006 18:03:51 +0100, Richard wrote:

wrote:


are you sure ?
even new diesels need thier plugs warmed first (and have a pigtail
light) ....

Neighbour's newish-jag which is powered by some awesome twin-turbo Vee
diesel does not have a glowplug symbol. He was warned (by Jaguar) that
if he inadvertently fills it with petrol he must _under no
circumstances_ even unlock the vehicle. Apparently it _does_ have some
sort of preheat system, but it commences as soon as the doors are
unlocked, thus there is no embarrassing pause once you have jumped into
your sleek executive conveyance!

You'd have thought that cars could have an RFID tag by the filler that
a reader in the pump nozzle would check.

Then the pump would stop and flash a light to tell the driver they're
about to make an expensive mistake!

Would be easy to retrofit to cars too, just stick the tag inside the
filler flap.

This sort of technology has been around on London Buses for a while in
the form of Oyster prepayment cards

cheers,
Pete.

AFAIK petrol can only damage a diesel engine once it gets as far as the
high pressure pump. As the high pressure pump is driven off a pulley
from the crankshaft (or directly from a camshaft with unit injectors),
I can't see how that can happen unless an attempt is made to start the
engine.

I know in the case of my VW (indirect injection, mechanical pump) the
only fuel lift pump is part of the high pressure pump, so it would be
impossible for petrol contaminated fuel to move from the tank without
cranking the engine.

Whilst glowplugs may be linked to doors etc, it will have no effect on
a misfuelled diesel vehicle - so is this "don't touch it" an urban myth
or is there some other reason?

Maybe electric fuel lift pumps (that run indepedently of the engine for
some reason) on some diesel vehicles?

"Grumps" wrote in message
...
Sylvain VAN DER WALDE wrote:
"Grumps" wrote in message
...
squelchy wrote:

snip


OK. Our local garage (not BMW main dealer) has checked all possible
issues and has found nothing! Of course, the engine starts perfectly
at the moment.


One thing they noticed was that the fuel filter is new(ish), and
wondered if there was a fault with this or its fitting.

That's a possibility. I would check it out.

How exactly does a fuel filter work, and what would cause it to
sometimes stop the engine from starting?


The frequent enemy of a diesel engine fuel system is _air entering
it_. In the case of filters, there usually is a round detachable housing
which is sealed by a rubber ring. You should _always_ replace that
ring (supplied with the new filter element). Sometimes several
different rings are supplied, and you should compare the new one with
the old one. This rubber ring is not always easy to fit, and I always
used a
mirror to make sure that it was seated properly. The assembly that
the fuel element housing fits to has usually an input connection and
an output one. These don't normally give problems, but _sometimes_
they do (they allow air to come in). Cleaning these joints with
petrol, drying carefully, and using some jointing compound (red
hermetite is ok) on all the threaded parts, etc.. will usually work.
I don't normally endorse using jointing compound, unless a part is
unobtainable or excessively costly.

Hmm. The BMW main dealer must've replaced this filter. You'd think they'd
know how to do it!
However, I'll get them to check.

The answers I've supplied are general ones, and are not necessarely
applicable to yourself.
In my experience, you can't assume that all mechanics are competent. Some
are not.

Would this "fitting error" (if it is an error) cause an intermittent
starting problem? The engine runs perfect otherwise.

The "air in the system" fault can be a most elusive one to diagnose
sometimes. I can't give you a definite answer.

I remember going many times (as did other mechanics) to a postal van (at a
sorting office) which woudn't start first thing in the morning. Bleeding the
fuel system (removing the air) got it started, and it ran alright for the
rest of the day. The next morning it probably wouldn't start. Obviously the
matter had been investigated in the workshop. If I remember correctly,
fitting a new lift pump did the trick.

Sylvain.

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember The Natural Philosopher
saying something like:

I had a guy with an old diesel tractor working here for a while. His
method was to remove a bit of air intake, tip a cupful of diesel into
the air intake, and if the glo plug failed to set it alight, use a bit
of lit newspaper. Then cranking that lot over sucked raw flames into the
cylinders, and it usually belched and rumbled its way to life with
clouds of black smoke.

I wouldn't treat an engine that way myself tho...

Bit of bent wire, burning rag. Used to do that all the time with my S2a
slug. Wouldn't do it with a CR diesel, mind.
--

Dave

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Clint Sharp
saying something like:

Speaking as someone who used to control field engineers and having had
to arrange for their diesel tanks to be emptied and refilled with diesel
on more than one occasion (all within 15,000 miles of new) after the
muppets filled them with unleaded and drove off, we never had a single
incident that cost us more than two tanks of fuel and the garage costs
for pumping out and disposal of the fuel (how much does it cost to put
the fuel in a breakdown truck?). We ran the cars for over 100,000 miles
and never replaced a pump, in fact we never replaced anything in the
fuel system apart from the filters. 13 Peugeot 406HDIs, one Renault
Espace 2.2DT and an Audi A6 1.9Tdi.

Is the right answer for pre common-rail systems.

If the main dealer is going to latch on to this latest money-spinning
wheeze and charge an arm and leg, you may as well do it yourself. After
all, if flushing out the fuel system fixes it and you get another 40 or
50 thousand miles before the pump expires, you're to the good. If it
doesn't, then your'e no worse off than paying the dealers' prices
anyway.

I've heard of several who've done just what you did and had no further
problems.

As far as CR systems go - I'd suck it and see. Pretty much the same
applies as above. IMO, there is more of a risk, but it can often be got
away with. Much of the FUD about this is put around by the makers and
the dealers as just the latest money-making wheeze, designed to part
hapless punters from their cash.
--

Dave

In message , Grimly
Curmudgeon writes
the fuel in a breakdown truck?). We ran the cars for over 100,000 miles
and never replaced a pump, in fact we never replaced anything in the
fuel system apart from the filters. 13 Peugeot 406HDIs, one Renault
Espace 2.2DT and an Audi A6 1.9Tdi.

Is the right answer for pre common-rail systems.
Umm, the Peugeot 406 HDI is a common rail system IIRC, electronic
injection system and almost all the sensors you'd find on a petrol car.
The Espace wasn't and I think the Audi was but can't be certain because
it had a pretty plastic cover that was a pain in the butt to remove for
quickly testing the equipment we used to make/sell/maintain and there
was always a Peugeot around

and you get another 40 or
50 thousand miles before the pump expires, you're to the good.
The engineers filled the cars with petrol in the first 15,000 miles of
the cars lives, we got rid of the cars well after 100K miles and never
had to replace a pump, they all ran the cars after filling them with
petrol until they stopped.


--
Clint Sharp