On Sun, 31 Jul 2005 14:07:04 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

As has been pointed out, all flexes have to be capable of carrying
somewhat more than 13 amps as a fault condition.

Hum, 0.75mm flex (2192Y type stuff) is 6A rated. This is the very
common two core oval flex, you can get it in 0.5mm 3A as well...

Yes 0.75mm it'll carry 13A and only get a bit warm but a 13A fuse
takes quite a while to blow at twice it's rating and we are now
getting on for 5 times over that of the flex. I'm not convinced that a
13A cartridge fuse will blow before the flex gets rather to hot under
controled overload conditions rather than a dead short.

But then if your flex is damaged, you shouldn't be using the
appliance anyway until properly repaired.

Have you left the real world Dave? B-)

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

":::Jerry::::" wrote in message
eenews.net...

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
snip
Appliance leads very rarely get damaged. You're on about workshop
use
again. It's about time you improved your safety standards there.

Your taking the p*ss aren't you,

No, he is always like that. He just doesn't know.

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
ll.com...
On Sun, 31 Jul 2005 14:07:04 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

As has been pointed out, all flexes have to be capable of carrying
somewhat more than 13 amps as a fault condition.

Hum, 0.75mm flex (2192Y type stuff) is 6A rated. This is the very
common two core oval flex, you can get it in 0.5mm 3A as well...

Yes 0.75mm it'll carry 13A and only get a bit warm but a 13A fuse
takes quite a while to blow at twice it's rating and we are now
getting on for 5 times over that of the flex. I'm not convinced that a
13A cartridge fuse will blow before the flex gets rather to hot under
controled overload conditions rather than a dead short.

But then if your flex is damaged, you shouldn't be using the
appliance anyway until properly repaired.

Have you left the real world Dave? B-)

He was in it to begin with.

In article ,
Nick Atty wrote:
I can only remember having to replace one or two fuses, and those were
13 amp types. Most appliances which are fused at less than 13 amp will
be things like AV equipment and have internal fuses which will blow
first anyway.

When I last shut this computer down, it did all the nice things, and
then finished with a dramatic "phut!". It turned out to be the (5A)
fuse in the plug. I replaced it, turned on at the mains and "phut!"
again.

With a new PSU fitted it's working fine again. I'm pretty sure it could
have taken a 13A out - it must have gone as close to short as makes no
difference - but I'm happier it was a smaller fuse. No internal fuse
involved.

Perhaps you need a better made computer - designed for a very long life.
This '97 one has fuses in the power supply, but has never blown one. ;-)

So a perfect case of the plug fuse doing just what it should have done,
and there being no internal one.

True, but plug fuses ain't the very best solution to protect electronics.
I'd use the correct one(s) for the job. The plug fuse is just to protect
the cable, etc.

--
*Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Sun, 31 Jul 2005 23:06:19 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 31 Jul 2005 20:56:34 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:



Tone didn't say it, the IRA did. Even Gerry Adams praised Tone. No one
since 1969 has managed that.


Praised Tone you mean? I suppose that you would be the only other
one.

I'd never have connected you to Gerry Adams though - Gerry Anderson
would seem more appropriate.

That is right. Tone did a better job than International Rescue.

But who do you think pulls the strings? Cherie? Mandy? Bruiser?



--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

In article ws.net,
:::Jerry:::: wrote:
Well, I bet a lot of dish-washers, dryers, washing machines and
probably microwave ovens have there moulded on plugs removed when
being connected to FCU's, even though you seem to think it's a
pointless way of installing them....

So you can't use a length of copper to replace the fuse in an FCU?

Yes, of course, but if the circuit is a radial that's also protected
by a suitable MCB, in fact if it was a radial you would only need a
CU and not a FCU.

So you'd have to rate all flexes at the MCB value? Most radials in other
countries are 20 amps or so.


And yes, I do think it totally pointless. If you want a switch
elsewhere
from the socket - or a means of simply switching it off - use a 20
amp DP
type. Neater, and the plug fuse still 'protects' the wiring, and
you can
simply unplug it when needed.

No you can't, unless you have a plug and socket taking up space in a
cupboard, and what if there isn't a cupboard near - what do you do
when you have three appliances in a row, only the two end units are
next to any possible cupboard.

You prefer dangling flexes from an FCU? Whatever floats your boat.


IMO moulded on plugs should be outlawed, anyone who defends
their
design
must be blind to their dangers.

Now if you were complaining about the dangers of badly fitted
plugs
in the
days when they weren't moulded on I'd have to agree with you.


You are becoming like 'Drivel', you are totally missing the point
being
made. :~(

Sorry, Jerry, but your points are becoming increasingly difficult
to
follow.


The point was about bare cable being left sticking out of moulded
plugs that have been cut off appliance leads (which is impossible to
remove, unlike those that can be split), your comment about badly
wired plugs was irrelevant.

Let Darwin apply then. The sooner the better.

--
*Out of my mind. Back in five minutes.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ws.net,
:::Jerry:::: wrote:
Appliance leads very rarely get damaged. You're on about workshop use
again. It's about time you improved your safety standards there.


Your taking the p*ss aren't you, has your wife never run over the vacuum
lead and damaged it, or worn the iron lead through on the ironing board
etc., she must be one in a million....

Then the fuse blows. If on a radial, you'd have a fire. Unless using
something like 2.5mm flex.

--
*Why is it that rain drops but snow falls?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ws.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Care to produce proof? Because I never wrote this.

12 years then.

Wrong again.

12.5 years?

More lies. You really should try harder. A simple Google would tell the
truth.

--
*Gravity is a myth, the earth sucks *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article om,
"Dave Liquorice" writes:
On Sun, 31 Jul 2005 14:07:04 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

As has been pointed out, all flexes have to be capable of carrying
somewhat more than 13 amps as a fault condition.

Hum, 0.75mm flex (2192Y type stuff) is 6A rated. This is the very
common two core oval flex, you can get it in 0.5mm 3A as well...

Yes, and such flexs are limited to 2 or 3 metres so the
impedance is low enough to blow a 16A fuse/breaker within
a very short time in the event of a short circuit at the
far end, fast enough so that not only is the cable not a
hazard itself, but also so it's not damaged and could in
theory be safely reused.

Yes 0.75mm it'll carry 13A and only get a bit warm but a 13A fuse
takes quite a while to blow at twice it's rating and we are now
getting on for 5 times over that of the flex. I'm not convinced that a
13A cartridge fuse will blow before the flex gets rather to hot under
controled overload conditions rather than a dead short.

An overload implies the wrong flex is fitted.
For a short circuit, to get 26A in a 0.75m cable, the short
circuit would have to be 149m from the plug. Again, that's
much longer than an appliance flex is allowed to be.

--
Andrew Gabriel

In article ws.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Have you left the real world Dave? B-)

He was in it to begin with.

You've got that right for once.

But knowing your posts after you've come back from the pub ****ed, it's
probably not what you meant.

Seek treatment for your alcohol addiction.

--
*A backward poet writes inverse.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article om,
Dave Liquorice wrote:
As has been pointed out, all flexes have to be capable of carrying
somewhat more than 13 amps as a fault condition.

Hum, 0.75mm flex (2192Y type stuff) is 6A rated. This is the very
common two core oval flex, you can get it in 0.5mm 3A as well...

Well, what's the effective area of a fuse? Ratings depend on length as
well.

Yes 0.75mm it'll carry 13A and only get a bit warm but a 13A fuse
takes quite a while to blow at twice it's rating and we are now
getting on for 5 times over that of the flex. I'm not convinced that a
13A cartridge fuse will blow before the flex gets rather to hot under
controled overload conditions rather than a dead short.

Again, what sort of conditions give a long term 'fixed' overload rather
than short? Apart from extension leads?

But then if your flex is damaged, you shouldn't be using the
appliance anyway until properly repaired.

Have you left the real world Dave? B-)

No. The chances of an appliance lead being damaged to the point where it
won't blow the plug fuse but overheat to the point of danger is remote.
Including hoovers and irons. Where the damage will be obvious and should
be fixed. Otherwise, let Darwin apply.

--
*See no evil, Hear no evil, Date no evil.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ws.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Have you left the real world Dave? B-)

He was in it to begin with.

You've got that right for once.

But left the real world a few weeks after entering.

snip babble

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ws.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Care to produce proof? Because I never wrote this.

12 years then.

Wrong again.

12.5 years?

More lies.

13 years leaving boiler without attention? No service.

snip babble

wrote:

When I did PAT testing this was something I had to test. This was after some
had been found to fail. I personally never found one that failed for this
reason, but it is possible, Perhaps we used better quality ones, I somehow
doubt it.

The failure rate is low but measurable... last time I watched someone
doing a bunch of IEC leads, they found about two or three out of a whole
lab full - so perhaps 300 leads in total. It tends to be the ones that
fall partially out of the socket and then get force applied to the sides
of them. The ones sticking out the back of CROs seem to be prime
candidates.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Andy Hall wrote:

But who do you think pulls the strings? Cherie? Mandy? Bruiser?

The difference is that with Virgil they were less visible ;-)


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In article ,
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Nick Atty wrote:
I can only remember having to replace one or two fuses, and those were
13 amp types. Most appliances which are fused at less than 13 amp will
be things like AV equipment and have internal fuses which will blow
first anyway.

When I last shut this computer down, it did all the nice things, and
then finished with a dramatic "phut!". It turned out to be the (5A)
fuse in the plug. I replaced it, turned on at the mains and "phut!"
again.

With a new PSU fitted it's working fine again. I'm pretty sure it could
have taken a 13A out - it must have gone as close to short as makes no
difference - but I'm happier it was a smaller fuse. No internal fuse
involved.

Perhaps you need a better made computer - designed for a very long life.
This '97 one has fuses in the power supply, but has never blown one. ;-)

This '94 computer also has one on the motjerboard. None blown. Of course the
problem is the surge at switch on/off which is never matched during normal
usage. Friends designing new computers had a more interesting problem: their
machines used so little power that the standard PC cases inc PSUs that they
were using would switch off - they detected so little current draw that the
case electronics assumed the machine had been switched off!

[Snip]

--
John Cartmell john@ followed by finnybank.com 0845 006 8822
Qercus magazine FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527 www.finnybank.com
Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing

In article ,
Steve Firth wrote:
Huge wrote:

Idiots are far too cunning to be easily defeated.

Indeed.

I can remember somepone making a plastic injection moulding machine
"idiot proof" by putting an interlock switch on the door so that the
machine could only be activated by closing the door and pressing a
separate button.

Did it stop people getting their hands caught in the machine? No because
the idiots discovered that if you jammed the activation button
permanently on with a match, the machine could be operated much faster
by just sliding the door back and forwards.

That's how an employee in a take away managed to cook his hands.

--
John Cartmell john@ followed by finnybank.com 0845 006 8822
Qercus magazine FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527 www.finnybank.com
Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing

In article ,
John Cartmell writes:

That's how an employee in a take away managed to cook his hands.

A friend who used to field service cash registers many years
ago was called to a takeaway. He noticed they'd cut a hand-sized
hole in the middle of the door so they didn't have to keep
opening and closing it to stick the pies in...

--
Andrew Gabriel

Gas can't be plastic.

Err Polyethylene ?


Dave

On 31 Jul 2005 23:00:48 GMT,it is alleged that
(Andrew Gabriel) spake thusly in uk.d-i-y:

[snip]

Yes 0.75mm it'll carry 13A and only get a bit warm but a 13A fuse
takes quite a while to blow at twice it's rating and we are now
getting on for 5 times over that of the flex. I'm not convinced that a
13A cartridge fuse will blow before the flex gets rather to hot under
controled overload conditions rather than a dead short.

An overload implies the wrong flex is fitted.
For a short circuit, to get 26A in a 0.75m cable, the short
circuit would have to be 149m from the plug. Again, that's
much longer than an appliance flex is allowed to be.

I meant to stay out of this thread, however, something similar has
happened to me while using a hedgetrimmer with a ~50m x 0.75mm sq
flex, this being one occasion when such a length is unavoidable in
large gardens. Unless we install several outdoor sockets, and this
thread really *doesn't* need to get onto outdoor electrics, ring or
radial g. Cut through the flex part way such that it was jammed in
the blades, evidently the short wasn't _short enough_ to blow the 5A
plug fuse. Ended up throwing the hedgetrimmer away from me and running
to pull the plug, which was hot. Even with the blade of the
hedgetrimmer + sparking flex in contact with wet grass, the RCD hadn't
tripped either. This is one occasion where the 'circuit breaker plug'
proposed elsewhere in this fine thread would be a sensible addition.
Possibly with 'arc fault' sensing ability, as now mandated in the US
for bedroom circuits (unlike the US however, we should wait till the
technology is through its teething problems before requiring its use).

--
While theoretically and technically television may be feasible,
commercially and financially it is an impossibility.
- Lee DeForest

:::Jerry:::: wrote:
Your taking the p*ss aren't you, has your wife never run over the
vacuum lead and damaged it, or worn the iron lead through on the
ironing board etc., she must be one in a million....

I don't know, there must be quite a lot of wives out there don't vacuum
or iron

Owain

Andrew Gabriel wrote:
An overload implies the wrong flex is fitted.
For a short circuit, to get 26A in a 0.75m cable, the short
circuit would have to be 149m from the plug. Again, that's
much longer than an appliance flex is allowed to be.

And longer than most extension leads would need to be, even as a
subterfuge to get round Part P

Owain

John Cartmell wrote:
... Friends designing new computers had a more interesting problem: their
machines used so little power that the standard PC cases inc PSUs that they
were using would switch off - they detected so little current draw that the
case electronics assumed the machine had been switched off!

Bright idea that no-one's ever thought of before (not): how about a
hefty resistor concealed in a spare drive bay to fool the PSU into
supplying enough current.

Owain

Chip wrote:

I meant to stay out of this thread, however, something similar has
happened to me while using a hedgetrimmer with a ~50m x 0.75mm sq
flex, this being one occasion when such a length is unavoidable in
large gardens. Unless we install several outdoor sockets, and this

You can reduce the risk by using a short(ish) thin flex on the tool, and
a heavy gauge extension lead.

thread really *doesn't* need to get onto outdoor electrics, ring or
radial g. Cut through the flex part way such that it was jammed in
the blades, evidently the short wasn't _short enough_ to blow the 5A
plug fuse. Ended up throwing the hedgetrimmer away from me and running
to pull the plug, which was hot. Even with the blade of the

Given time it would probably open the fuse... ;-)

hedgetrimmer + sparking flex in contact with wet grass, the RCD hadn't
tripped either.

Was it a double isolated tool? (i.e. 2 core flex). If so then there is
no reason why the RCD would trip since it looks for an imbalance between
feed and return, not an over currentfault.

This is one occasion where the 'circuit breaker plug'
proposed elsewhere in this fine thread would be a sensible addition.

Why? A circuit breaker in the same circumstances may behave in the same
way. When the fault current is not high enough to reach the
instantaneous part of its trip response (i.e. the solenoid operated
bit), it behaves as a thermal trip device (as does a fuse).

Possibly with 'arc fault' sensing ability, as now mandated in the US
for bedroom circuits (unlike the US however, we should wait till the
technology is through its teething problems before requiring its use).

Na, you need a more powerful trimmer so it can cut through the lead
cleanly ;-)


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Mon, 01 Aug 2005 00:16:48 +0100,it is alleged that
spake thusly in uk.d-i-y:

On 31 Jul,
John Rumm wrote:


If you want to fix a problem, find a way to make sure that the earth
terminals on IEC (cold) plugs don't splay and hence interrupt the earth
connectivity to portable appliances. I have seen numerous power leads
fail PAT testing for this.

When I did PAT testing this was something I had to test. This was after some
had been found to fail. I personally never found one that failed for this
reason, but it is possible, Perhaps we used better quality ones, I somehow
doubt it.

I had this issue with a PC (desktop) a few weeks ago. What I figured
had happened was as mentioned elsewhere, it had come partly out and
had sideways force applied. However, this hadn't affected the female
connector, but the chassis male plug, which had its earth pin loosened
and pushed back by maybe 1.5 to 2 mm. Enough to fail to make contact
before the live/neutral. I put it down to poor design, a PCB mount
socket used as chassis mount with the earth tail inside
soldered/heatshrinked to the pcb pin.

--
While theoretically and technically television may be feasible,
commercially and financially it is an impossibility.
- Lee DeForest

In article t,
Chip writes:
On 31 Jul 2005 23:00:48 GMT,it is alleged that
(Andrew Gabriel) spake thusly in uk.d-i-y:
For a short circuit, to get 26A in a 0.75m cable, the short
circuit would have to be 149m from the plug. Again, that's
much longer than an appliance flex is allowed to be.

I meant to stay out of this thread, however, something similar has
happened to me while using a hedgetrimmer with a ~50m x 0.75mm sq
flex, this being one occasion when such a length is unavoidable in
large gardens. Unless we install several outdoor sockets, and this
thread really *doesn't* need to get onto outdoor electrics, ring or
radial g. Cut through the flex part way such that it was jammed in
the blades, evidently the short wasn't _short enough_ to blow the 5A
plug fuse. Ended up throwing the hedgetrimmer away from me and running
to pull the plug, which was hot. Even with the blade of the
hedgetrimmer + sparking flex in contact with wet grass, the RCD hadn't

50m x 0.75mm² is 3.1 ohms which is 77A, so it can't have
been a short circuit as that would have blown the fuse within
10 seconds (possibly less -- I don't have the curves for BS1362
fuses). The sparking would also imply it wasn't a dead short,
as that would produce no continuous sparking.

As I said before (probably in the previous thread), extension
cords are probably one of the most serious sources of danger,
and that's from several perspectives. It's not just a question
of making them "idiot proof" -- most people with no electrical
engineering or similar background really have no idea what the
safety issues with them are, and many of the issues can hardly
be said to be intuitive in any case.

In your case, you should really be using a much thicker extension
cord for the bulk of that cable run. A rough guideline for 13A
extension cord length is:
1.25mm² cable, 12m max
1.5mm² cable, 15m max
2.5mm² cable, 25m max.

By reducing the fuse and max current, you could proportinally
increase the length, so a 2.5mm² 50m cable with a 5A fuse
would be within this. (Note however that you won't get 2.5mm²
flex into the cord grips of most 13A plugs or line sockets.)

Something else that I've done is replaced my hedge trimmer
cable with 3-core earthed. The earth is not connected at the
hedge timmer end (like all garden tools, it's double insulated),
but it does make it much more likely the RCD will trip in the
type of fault you had.

However, again as I said before, electrical installations
would be better designed to remove the requirement for extension
cords at all. Shortly before Part P came in, as part of replacing
my Consumer Unit, I included provision of outside sockets such
that no part of the garden is more than 15m from a socket. They
are on a dedicated TT-system circuit, and RCD protected at 10mA.

--
Andrew Gabriel

On 01 Aug 2005 13:19:04 GMT,it is alleged that
(Andrew Gabriel) spake thusly in uk.d-i-y:

[snip]
The sparking would also imply it wasn't a dead short,
as that would produce no continuous sparking.


Indeed, definitely not a dead short, it was a case of the hedgetrimmer
managing to slice through the neutral, not quite through the live, and
thus the blade was live with the (badly burned) neutral touching it
each time it was moved.

I discovered all this later, I somehow didn't have the urge to closely
inspect it while live :-)

[snip]

Something else that I've done is replaced my hedge trimmer
cable with 3-core earthed. The earth is not connected at the
hedge timmer end (like all garden tools, it's double insulated),
but it does make it much more likely the RCD will trip in the
type of fault you had.

Excellent piece of lateral thinking, I may just do this (although
current house has a small enough garden that a 20m cord would be
sufficient, so I will be able to use 1.5mm 3 core).

--
While theoretically and technically television may be feasible,
commercially and financially it is an impossibility.
- Lee DeForest

On Mon, 01 Aug 2005 13:08:44 +0100,it is alleged that Owain
spake thusly in uk.d-i-y:

John Cartmell wrote:
... Friends designing new computers had a more interesting problem: their
machines used so little power that the standard PC cases inc PSUs that they
were using would switch off - they detected so little current draw that the
case electronics assumed the machine had been switched off!

Bright idea that no-one's ever thought of before (not): how about a
hefty resistor concealed in a spare drive bay to fool the PSU into
supplying enough current.

g I wonder if IBM still have a few hundred thousand of those kicking
around?

--
While theoretically and technically television may be feasible,
commercially and financially it is an impossibility.
- Lee DeForest

In article , Owain
wrote:
John Cartmell wrote:
... Friends designing new computers had a more interesting problem: their
machines used so little power that the standard PC cases inc PSUs that
they were using would switch off - they detected so little current draw
that the case electronics assumed the machine had been switched off!

Bright idea that no-one's ever thought of before (not): how about a hefty
resistor concealed in a spare drive bay to fool the PSU into supplying
enough current.

They finally found a PSU that would continue to operate at the appropriate
draw. Other friends producing a more recent design dumped the PSU idea
altogether and use a standard (external) adaptor giving 5v DC output for their
new desktop computer.

--
John Cartmell john@ followed by finnybank.com 0845 006 8822
Qercus magazine FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527 www.finnybank.com
Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing

In article , Andy Hall
wrote:

I thought Blair was a Tory.... Seems to have most of the
characteristics.

Not in my book. He's just a cleverer commie than most. Dress up legalised
extortion in a frilly dress and call it a major benefit for everyone.

--
AJL Electronics (G6FGO) Ltd : Satellite and TV aerial systems
http://www.classicmicrocars.co.uk : http://www.ajlelectronics.co.uk

Andrew Gabriel wrote:
For a short circuit, to get 26A in a 0.75m cable, the short
circuit would have to be 149m from the plug. Again, that's
much longer than an appliance flex is allowed to be.
I meant to stay out of this thread, however, something similar has
happened to me while using a hedgetrimmer with a ~50m x 0.75mm sq
flex,
50m x 0.75mm² is 3.1 ohms which is 77A, so it can't have
been a short circuit as that would have blown the fuse within
10 seconds (possibly less -- I don't have the curves for BS1362
fuses). The sparking would also imply it wasn't a dead short,
as that would produce no continuous sparking.

These figures are for 240V, would be *worse* if 110V (building site
style) was used in the interests of 'safety'?

Owain

Chip wrote:
Bright idea that no-one's ever thought of before (not): how about a
hefty resistor concealed in a spare drive bay to fool the PSU into
supplying enough current.
g I wonder if IBM still have a few hundred thousand of those kicking
around?

Probably, now I wonder what their spares department would charge ;-)

Owain

In article s.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Have you left the real world Dave? B-)

He was in it to begin with.

You've got that right for once.

But left the real world a few weeks after entering.

Ah. You've sobered up somewhat?

Seek treatment for your addiction.

--
*I have a degree in liberal arts -- do you want fries with that

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article s.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Care to produce proof? Because I never wrote this.

12 years then.

Wrong again.

12.5 years?

More lies.

13 years

More lies. It's sad you have to resort to lying at every opportunity.

Seek treatment for this affliction as well as your others.

--
*INDECISION is the key to FLEXIBILITY *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
:::Jerry:::: wrote:

Yes, of course, but if the circuit is a radial that's also
protected
by a suitable MCB, in fact if it was a radial you would only need
a
CU and not a FCU.

But then your radial may be limited to supplying only one
appliance...

The FCU buys you nothing really. A socket mounted flush to the wall
will
take far less space than the normal hoses etc. that poke out the
back of
most appliances so that is a bit of a non issue.

So you want people to haul out their appliances just to isolate them
now....!


No you can't, unless you have a plug and socket taking up space
in a
cupboard, and what if there isn't a cupboard near - what do you
do
when you have three appliances in a row, only the two end units
are
next to any possible cupboard.

The lead on the appliance will be plenty long enough to reach round
(most have 1.8m leads as a minimum) the appliance to the left or
right.
Failing that, mount the socket on the wall behind it.

So you want people to have to haul out two or more appliances if one
needs to be (re)moved ?!....


The point was about bare cable being left sticking out of moulded
plugs that have been cut off appliance leads (which is impossible
to

That is not a particular fault of moulded plugs as such, cut any
plug
off and you have the same situation. It is only a real problem if
you
then strip the ends of the stub of wire poking out of the plug and
actually plug it in. Why would you?

Err?!.....


remove, unlike those that can be split), your comment about
badly
wired plugs was irrelevant.

Not really, because the compulsory intrduction of pre-fitted plugs
on
new equipment (moulded or otherwise) did result is a big decrease
in
accidents with appliances.

But that wasn't the issue, no one has suggested AFAIR that pre fitted
plugs have been a bad thing.


The moulded ones are also better/safer in some circumstances due to
their much more effective cord grip. The gain from that is far more
likely to prevent an accident than the potential risk posed by
someone
plugging in a detached plug.


That's a design issue that could be cured in split type plugs though,
the real reason moulded on plugs are used is cost.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article
ws.net,
:::Jerry:::: wrote:
Well, I bet a lot of dish-washers, dryers, washing machines
and
probably microwave ovens have there moulded on plugs removed
when
being connected to FCU's, even though you seem to think it's
a
pointless way of installing them....

So you can't use a length of copper to replace the fuse in an
FCU?

Yes, of course, but if the circuit is a radial that's also
protected
by a suitable MCB, in fact if it was a radial you would only need
a
CU and not a FCU.

So you'd have to rate all flexes at the MCB value? Most radials in
other
countries are 20 amps or so.

But we are talking about dedicated appliance circuits here, so where
would the problem be?



And yes, I do think it totally pointless. If you want a switch
elsewhere
from the socket - or a means of simply switching it off - use a
20
amp DP
type. Neater, and the plug fuse still 'protects' the wiring,
and
you can
simply unplug it when needed.

No you can't, unless you have a plug and socket taking up space
in a
cupboard, and what if there isn't a cupboard near - what do you
do
when you have three appliances in a row, only the two end units
are
next to any possible cupboard.

You prefer dangling flexes from an FCU? Whatever floats your boat.
snip

No, have you never used a FCU to supply a flex to CU wall plate?

For all your talk about having things just so, you seem to be
governed by cost rather than neat and accessible installations - as
you say, whatever floats your boat.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article
ws.net,
:::Jerry:::: wrote:
Appliance leads very rarely get damaged. You're on about
workshop use
again. It's about time you improved your safety standards
there.


Your taking the p*ss aren't you, has your wife never run over the
vacuum
lead and damaged it, or worn the iron lead through on the ironing
board
etc., she must be one in a million....

Then the fuse blows. If on a radial, you'd have a fire. Unless
using
something like 2.5mm flex.


You really don't understand this do you, the radial would not be
rated at anymore than the 16 amps people keep telling me that all
appliance flex's have to be rated for now - OTOH, if the BS1363 plug
fuse has been bridged by some idiot.....

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
:::Jerry:::: wrote:

But as has been pointed out, being able to carry 13 amps is way
under
the possible maximum protection rating - something that you seem

I don't think you/joe public will easily find plug sized cartridge
fuses
with a rating of more than 13A.

Anyone can, any screw of the same dia' of a BS1363 type plug fuse
will do. :~(


If you are talking about the 32A breaker on the circuit, then that
is
not really relevant since it is not there to protect the appliance
or
its flex, it is there to protect the circuit.


It is if you consider the above...

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
.. .
In article om,
"Dave Liquorice" writes:
On Sun, 31 Jul 2005 14:07:04 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

As has been pointed out, all flexes have to be capable of
carrying
somewhat more than 13 amps as a fault condition.

Hum, 0.75mm flex (2192Y type stuff) is 6A rated. This is the very
common two core oval flex, you can get it in 0.5mm 3A as well...

Yes, and such flexs are limited to 2 or 3 metres so the

Who says, seeing that one can buy it off the real in the DIY sheds.

The lamp or what ever might well come with only two meters of flex,
but who knows if it won't be replaced with a longer length of the
same section.

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
:::Jerry:::: wrote:

Well, lets go back to bare wires and crock-clips, as even the
present
regulations causes such irritation to the majority, and if they
wish
to kill themselves then that's Darwinism...

Don't recall ever using vare wires and crock clips. Perhaps things
are
different in your neck of the woods.


Our old house, built 1901, had the remains of it's first ever
electrical supply (installed when the house was built...[1]) still in
place under the floor boards - it comprised of bare wire conductors
in porcelain 'clamps' / insulators with twisted / soldered
connections...

[1] there was also unused gas pipes to wall lights as well, although
gas was never installed, AIUI the house was one of the first all
electric houses in the town. It was the architects own property so
was probably trying out the new technology but hedging his bets at
the same time!