Sorry, "American Electrics" was getting far too OT, and rather long so
here it is:

Given the opportunity (and let's ignore backwards compatibility, at
least to begin with), how would you redesign our domestic final circuits
to be completely idiot proof?

Although the system we have at present is probably the most recently
designed in the world, are there any things about it which, with today's
technology, could be seen as compromises?

Particular examples brought up on the AE thread (and elsewhere over the
last few months):

* a ring circuit with a break in one of the live conductors will
overload one leg as it is fused at 30/32A and the cable is only good
for 20A (27A under ideal circumstances)

* fuses in the appliance plugs can be bypassed, while MCBs screwed into
the consumer unit are less likely to be.

* fused appliance plugs are better for isolating faults to a single
appliance as (usually) the plug fuse will blow before the MCB.

* on the other hand, in a "dead short" situation, this isn't always the
case even with a 3A fuse and 32A MCB (I've proved it several times
:-)

* radials using fused plugs can be rated up to 32A, but need at least
4mm2 cable, and often 6mm2 cable which is both more expensive, and
much more difficult to work with than the 2.5mm2 cable used for 32A
rings.

* unfused appliance plugs (less problem with tampering) would mandate
radials with a very low MCB rating and hence a large number of
radials; one per room or even more.

* either that, or they would mandate fuse protection inside every
appliance and while a lot (TV, video etc) already have this, it's
going to be difficult persuading manufacturers to bung a fuse inside
a £3 table lamp.

* unfused appliance plugs will *always* take out the circuit MCB on a
fault, and hence tracing the appliance which caused the fault can be
tricky since there are likely to be several candidates.

Erm, I'm sure I've missed some things out.

Go on then, what's the ideal? Sub mains to each room with a mini-CU in
every room, with MCBs feeding individual outlets (don't laugh, it has
been suggested)? Appliance plugs with built-in MCBs rather than
replaceable cartridge fuses? Sockets with built-in MCBs, or RCBOs?
Talking of RCDs, what about changing the way we use these things?

Have fun :-)

Hwyl!

M.

--
Martin Angove: http://www.tridwr.demon.co.uk/
Two free issues: http://www.livtech.co.uk/ Living With Technology
.... Beware of quantum ducks. Quark! Quark!

In article ,
Martin Angove wrote:
Go on then, what's the ideal? Sub mains to each room with a mini-CU in
every room, with MCBs feeding individual outlets (don't laugh, it has
been suggested)? Appliance plugs with built-in MCBs rather than
replaceable cartridge fuses? Sockets with built-in MCBs, or RCBOs?
Talking of RCDs, what about changing the way we use these things?

Given that all appliances come with fitted plugs these days, it would be
easy to make the use of the wrong fuse impossible, by making the design of
the fuse and fuse carrier different for the appropriate size. And you
could also make the sale of '13 amp' extension leads not rated at 13 amps
illegal. Unless using proprietary non 13 amp connectors like some garden
tools etc, use.

The idea of having a mini CU in every room is total overkill. Just how
often does an MCB trip and cause a problem in the average house?

Since this is a DIY group, when re-wiring your house, simply put in an
adequate number of circuits. The extra costs in materials is pennies. Then
any nuisance tripping will be more localised - if it ever happens. Makes
sense to perhaps have the hall and stairs lighting on its own circuit.

--
*Drugs may lead to nowhere, but at least it's the scenic route *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote

Given that all appliances come with fitted plugs these days, it would be
easy to make the use of the wrong fuse impossible,

I'm sure that I could make my roll of aluminium foil fit any size of
fuse receptacle.

--
Alan

In article ,
Martin Angove writes:
Sorry, "American Electrics" was getting far too OT, and rather long so
here it is:

The beginning of the thread was an interesting discussion.
However, there was nothing new posted for many days -- just
the same misunderstandings being repeated over again.
You probably just started it all over again :-(

--
Andrew Gabriel

In article ,
Alan wrote:
Given that all appliances come with fitted plugs these days, it would be
easy to make the use of the wrong fuse impossible,

I'm sure that I could make my roll of aluminium foil fit any size of
fuse receptacle.

I'd say you'd find that difficult with blade type fuses as used in cars.

However, the idea was to make the system foolproof. Not c**t proof.

--
*To err is human. To forgive is against company policy.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Martin Angove wrote:
Given the opportunity (and let's ignore backwards compatibility, at
least to begin with), how would you redesign our domestic final circuits
to be completely idiot proof?

I don't think that's possible, or desirable. You might better ask how we
can redesign motor cars to be idiot proof, as they cause far far more
deaths and serious accidents than electrical wiring (or even appliances)

* a ring circuit with a break in one of the live conductors will
overload one leg as it is fused at 30/32A and the cable is only good
for 20A (27A under ideal circumstances)

A current-balance MCB that trips the ring if the imbalance between the
two legs exceeds a certain proportion of the total is probably feasible,
and could probably be combined into a single-circuit RCBO.

Ring overloading and high point load really only occurs in kitchens,
domestically. Treating all hob/ovens, washing machines, tumble driers
and dishwashers as fixed heating appliances and mandating points for
these to be provided with each point rated at 10A or actual load if
greater (in the same way we rate lighting points at 100W) would in
almost all cases provide at least 4 sockets (they could be on their own
32A ring, or radial, or multiple 15A radials) in the kitchen, and take
these appliances off the general purpose ring. The gp ring should be
able to cope with other loads, deep fryer, combi microwave, as these are
fairly intermittent anyway.

All those appliances are plumbed in or otherwise non-portable anyway, so
there is no disadvantage to restricting their use, unlike a
toastie-maker or microwave whcih might be used in a teenager's room.
Such provision is also more easily enforced because these appliances are
usually *fitted* by tradesmen and in kitchens comes under (or can be
brought under) Part P for the fixed wiring.

* unfused appliance plugs (less problem with tampering) would mandate
radials with a very low MCB rating and hence a large number of
radials; one per room or even more.
* unfused appliance plugs will *always* take out the circuit MCB on a
fault, and hence tracing the appliance which caused the fault can be
tricky since there are likely to be several candidates.

Yesm that is a step back to the 'good old days'

... Sockets with built-in MCBs, or RCBOs?

Is an alternative, but the difficulty with removing the plug fuse is
backwards compatbility, which cannot be ignored. We can't have new
unfused appliances being plugged into old high-current rings, and any
use of adapters or requiring householders to change plugs is going to
send the death rate shooting up.

Talking of RCDs, what about changing the way we use these things?

Like, using them correctly instead of whole-house?

Owain

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Alan wrote:
Given that all appliances come with fitted plugs these days, it would be
easy to make the use of the wrong fuse impossible,

I'm sure that I could make my roll of aluminium foil fit any size of
fuse receptacle.

I'd say you'd find that difficult with blade type fuses as used in cars.

However, the idea was to make the system foolproof. Not c**t proof.


"The problem with designing something completely foolproof is to under
estimate the ingenuity of a complete fool." - Douglas Adams

Adam

"Alan" wrote in message
...
In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote

Given that all appliances come with fitted plugs these days, it
would be
easy to make the use of the wrong fuse impossible,

I'm sure that I could make my roll of aluminium foil fit any size
of
fuse receptacle.


Or find a nail, bolt or bit of wire that will fit, the final
protection needs to be taken away from the idiots who can and have
done such things.

Wadsworth wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...

In article ,
Alan wrote:

Given that all appliances come with fitted plugs these days, it
would be
easy to make the use of the wrong fuse impossible,


I'm sure that I could make my roll of aluminium foil fit any size of
fuse receptacle.


I'd say you'd find that difficult with blade type fuses as used in cars.

However, the idea was to make the system foolproof. Not c**t proof.



"The problem with designing something completely foolproof is to under
estimate the ingenuity of a complete fool." - Douglas Adams

Adam


I'm with Alan and ARWadsworth on this one. Anyone stupid enough to try
doing unnatural things with stuff that's there to protect them, that
they don't understand, deserves everything that they get. Even if its
ultimately a Darwin Award

At the end of the day any system that depends for its safety on measures
that are accessible to "idiots" is going to be compromised, for the
reasons articulated by Mr Adams. Personally my view is that we need to
do our best to make the system totally safe for the average user who
follows the rules, and make it very difficult for the average DIYer to
mess up.

However, we are unlikely to ever be able to cope with the lunatic fringe
who are actively trying to circumvent the safety systems, and we
probably shouldn't even try ...

Cheers
Richard

Martin Angove wrote:

* either that, or they would mandate fuse protection inside every
appliance and while a lot (TV, video etc) already have this, it's
going to be difficult persuading manufacturers to bung a fuse inside
a £3 table lamp.

Every US set of Xmas lights has a fuse inside the connecting plugs, and
some of these sell for $2! Doesn't seem like a problem to me, but if the
fuse is inside the appliance, then replacing it may give access
problems, as it already does in TVs.

Regards
Capitol

"Richard Appleby" wrote in message
...
Wadsworth wrote:

snip

"The problem with designing something completely foolproof is to
under
estimate the ingenuity of a complete fool." - Douglas Adams


I'm with Alan and ARWadsworth on this one. Anyone stupid enough to
try
doing unnatural things with stuff that's there to protect them,
that
they don't understand, deserves everything that they get. Even if
its
ultimately a Darwin Award

At the end of the day any system that depends for its safety on
measures
that are accessible to "idiots" is going to be compromised, for the
reasons articulated by Mr Adams. Personally my view is that we need
to
do our best to make the system totally safe for the average user
who
follows the rules, and make it very difficult for the average DIYer
to
mess up.

However, we are unlikely to ever be able to cope with the lunatic
fringe
who are actively trying to circumvent the safety systems, and we
probably shouldn't even try ...


The point is, it doesn't need a lunatic, let the person who has never
put the wrong fuse in a BS1363 plug just get things working cast the
first stone, let the person who then remembers to replace it A.S.A.P
cast the second...

Nothing can be made completely foolproof, but requiring more than a
cheap tea-spoon to access the fuse in a moulded on BS1363 plug is not
even trying. There are people changing fuses in plugs who know
nothing about electrics and are clueless as to the importance of the
fuse or it's rating.

"Capitol" wrote in message
...


Martin Angove wrote:

* either that, or they would mandate fuse protection inside
every
appliance and while a lot (TV, video etc) already have this,
it's
going to be difficult persuading manufacturers to bung a fuse
inside
a £3 table lamp.

Every US set of Xmas lights has a fuse inside the connecting plugs,
and
some of these sell for $2! Doesn't seem like a problem to me, but
if the
fuse is inside the appliance, then replacing it may give access
problems, as it already does in TVs.


Does it? IMO what it does means is that those who are with clue can
and those without don't...

On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 12:14:02 +0100, Martin Angove
wrote:


Given the opportunity (and let's ignore backwards compatibility, at
least to begin with), how would you redesign our domestic final circuits
to be completely idiot proof?

Making things idiot proof is trivial.

Making things proof against intelligent beings is impossible.


--
Peter Parry.
http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/

In message ws.net,
":::Jerry::::" wrote

Nothing can be made completely foolproof, but requiring more than a
cheap tea-spoon to access the fuse in a moulded on BS1363 plug is not
even trying.

Make it more difficult and it will be easier to cut off the plug and
hold the bare wires into the socket with a couple of match sticks - or
preferably with a couple of nails..

For something to be safe you don't make it impossible to fix without
special tools. Having to take something apart to replace a fuse isn't
safe. People are going to see if the fix works before reassembling the
item.

While I guess everyone on this group may have a set of screwdrivers
and/or security bit readily to hand many households don't have these
items.


--
Alan

In message ws.net,
":::Jerry::::" writes

"Capitol" wrote in message
...


Martin Angove wrote:

* either that, or they would mandate fuse protection inside
every
appliance and while a lot (TV, video etc) already have this,
it's
going to be difficult persuading manufacturers to bung a fuse
inside
a £3 table lamp.

Every US set of Xmas lights has a fuse inside the connecting plugs,
and
some of these sell for $2! Doesn't seem like a problem to me, but
if the
fuse is inside the appliance, then replacing it may give access
problems, as it already does in TVs.


Does it? IMO what it does means is that those who are with clue can
and those without don't...

But what about he who thinks he has a clue ?

--
geoff

:::Jerry:::: wrote:

Or find a nail, bolt or bit of wire that will fit, the final
protection needs to be taken away from the idiots who can and have
done such things.

You should work in government! That sounds like just the sort of
attitude the ODPM would love ;-)

The problem with such nannyism, is that in any many cases you can't take
the facilities away from the "few idiots" without causing major
irritation to the majority of (competant) people in the process.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In article ws.net,
:::Jerry:::: wrote:
The point is, it doesn't need a lunatic, let the person who has never
put the wrong fuse in a BS1363 plug just get things working cast the
first stone, let the person who then remembers to replace it A.S.A.P
cast the second...

I can only remember having to replace one or two fuses, and those were 13
amp types. Most appliances which are fused at less than 13 amp will be
things like AV equipment and have internal fuses which will blow first
anyway.

If you're continually replacing fuses, as you say, then you need to look
into the reasons for this.

--
*Money isn't everything, but it sure keeps the kids in touch.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In message , raden
wrote

Does it? IMO what it does means is that those who are with clue can
and those without don't...

But what about he who thinks he has a clue ?


In the past you had to employ a Corgi registered fitter for gas but
with plastic pipes and push fittings anyone can now do it.


--
Alan

In article ws.net,
":::Jerry::::" writes:

The point is, it doesn't need a lunatic, let the person who has never
put the wrong fuse in a BS1363 plug just get things working cast the
first stone, let the person who then remembers to replace it A.S.A.P
cast the second...

As pointed out already, you can't put a wrong fuse in a 13A
plug. All appliance cords and appliancs are required to remain
safe when protected at 16A nowadays, so all* BS1362 fuse values
are OK.

*Minor exception, but strictly 1A BS1362 fuses should not be
used in BS1363 plugs because they are not ASTA approved and
would therefore result in a PAT test failure of the appliance.

--
Andrew Gabriel

On Sun, 31 Jul 2005 10:00:22 +0100, Alan
wrote:

In message , raden
wrote

Does it? IMO what it does means is that those who are with clue can
and those without don't...

But what about he who thinks he has a clue ?


In the past you had to employ a Corgi registered fitter for gas but
with plastic pipes and push fittings anyone can now do it.


There has never and is no legislation requiring you to employ a CORGI
registered fitter. However, somebody who does gas fitting
professionally must be CORGI registered. It is a requirement that
anybody doing gas fitting be competent; but given this pre-requisite,
the law does not prevent you doing your own.

You may not use plastic pipe nor push fittings for gas.



--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

In message , Andy Hall
wrote


You may not use plastic pipe nor push fittings for gas.


Wrong - Transco use plastic pipes !

--
Alan

In article ,
Alan wrote:
You may not use plastic pipe nor push fittings for gas.


Wrong - Transco use plastic pipes !

Not with push on fittings. Nor could you obtain fittings to connect their
stuff to your cooker.

--
*How many roads must a man travel down before he admits he is lost? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Sun, 31 Jul 2005 11:16:27 +0100, Alan
wrote:

In message , Andy Hall
wrote


You may not use plastic pipe nor push fittings for gas.


Wrong - Transco use plastic pipes !

I meant within premises, obviously....




--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Alan" wrote in message
...
In message , raden
wrote

Does it? IMO what it does means is that those who are with clue can
and those without don't...

But what about he who thinks he has a clue ?

In the past you had to employ a Corgi registered fitter for gas but
with plastic pipes and push fittings anyone can now do it.

Gas can't be plastic.

On 31 Jul 2005 10:42:11 GMT, (Huge) wrote:

Andy Hall writes:
On Sun, 31 Jul 2005 10:00:22 +0100, Alan
wrote:

In message , raden
wrote

Does it? IMO what it does means is that those who are with clue can
and those without don't...

But what about he who thinks he has a clue ?


In the past you had to employ a Corgi registered fitter for gas but
with plastic pipes and push fittings anyone can now do it.


There has never and is no legislation requiring you to employ a CORGI
registered fitter. However, somebody who does gas fitting
professionally must be CORGI registered. It is a requirement that
anybody doing gas fitting be competent; but given this pre-requisite,
the law does not prevent you doing your own.

You may not use plastic pipe nor push fittings for gas.

Forgot to engage your sense of humour?

Not really.

In context, this is fine, but read in isolation could be an issue.





--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

In article ,
Huge wrote:
In the past you had to employ a Corgi registered fitter for gas but
with plastic pipes and push fittings anyone can now do it.


There has never and is no legislation requiring you to employ a CORGI
registered fitter. However, somebody who does gas fitting
professionally must be CORGI registered. It is a requirement that
anybody doing gas fitting be competent; but given this pre-requisite,
the law does not prevent you doing your own.

You may not use plastic pipe nor push fittings for gas.

Forgot to engage your sense of humour?

Trouble is pratts like Drivel see such things posted here and believe them.
And it's bad enough him flooding a house because he can't make a decent
plastic pipe joint. Gawd knows what the end result would be when he uses
this for gas.

--
*Okay, who stopped the payment on my reality check? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article
ws.net,
:::Jerry:::: wrote:
The point is, it doesn't need a lunatic, let the person who has
never
put the wrong fuse in a BS1363 plug just get things working cast
the
first stone, let the person who then remembers to replace it
A.S.A.P
cast the second...

I can only remember having to replace one or two fuses, and those
were 13
amp types. Most appliances which are fused at less than 13 amp will
be
things like AV equipment and have internal fuses which will blow
first
anyway.

You live a sheltered life then...


If you're continually replacing fuses, as you say, then you need to
look
into the reasons for this.


No one has said anything about having to continually replace fuses.

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
.. .
In article
ws.net,
":::Jerry::::" writes:

The point is, it doesn't need a lunatic, let the person who has
never
put the wrong fuse in a BS1363 plug just get things working cast
the
first stone, let the person who then remembers to replace it
A.S.A.P
cast the second...

As pointed out already, you can't put a wrong fuse in a 13A
plug. All appliance cords and appliancs are required to remain
safe when protected at 16A nowadays, so all* BS1362 fuse values
are OK.

So if fuse rating of below 13A are irrelivant, why are they still
advalible...

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
:::Jerry:::: wrote:

Or find a nail, bolt or bit of wire that will fit, the final
protection needs to be taken away from the idiots who can and
have
done such things.

You should work in government! That sounds like just the sort of
attitude the ODPM would love ;-)

The problem with such nannyism, is that in any many cases you can't
take
the facilities away from the "few idiots" without causing major
irritation to the majority of (competant) people in the process.


Well, lets go back to bare wires and crock-clips, as even the present
regulations causes such irritation to the majority, and if they wish
to kill themselves then that's Darwinism...

In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote

Nor could you obtain fittings to connect their
stuff to your cooker.


What's wrong with garden hose and duct tape?

--
Alan

In article ws.net,
:::Jerry:::: wrote:
I can only remember having to replace one or two fuses, and those were
13 amp types. Most appliances which are fused at less than 13 amp will
be things like AV equipment and have internal fuses which will blow
first anyway.

You live a sheltered life then...

I doubt it. But have the sense not to try and run two 3 kW heaters off one
extension lead, or to have extension leads that won't carry 13 amps.

If you're continually replacing fuses, as you say, then you need to
look into the reasons for this.

No one has said anything about having to continually replace fuses.

You give the impression it's so common to be a serious problem. But if it
was, I'd suggest changing to radial circuits would make things worse by
having less sockets therefore more overloaded extension leads, etc.

I'm trying hard to remember the last plug fuse I had blow - despite having
a vast number of electrical appliances. The one I do remember was on a 25"
hybrid TV - it said 500 watts but would blow a 5 amp fuse.

What appliance have you had a fuse blow on recently?

--
*Horn broken. - Watch for finger.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Huge wrote:
Trouble is pratts like Drivel see such things posted here and believe
them. And it's bad enough him flooding a house because he can't make a
decent plastic pipe joint. Gawd knows what the end result would be when
he uses this for gas.

Good point [he reluctantly admits]. Perhaps smileys *do* have a place?

Naw - keep them guessing.

--
*I used to have an open mind but my brains kept falling out *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ws.net,
":::Jerry::::" writes:
"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
.. .
In article
ws.net,
":::Jerry::::" writes:

The point is, it doesn't need a lunatic, let the person who has never
put the wrong fuse in a BS1363 plug just get things working cast the
first stone, let the person who then remembers to replace it A.S.A.P
cast the second...

As pointed out already, you can't put a wrong fuse in a 13A
plug. All appliance cords and appliancs are required to remain
safe when protected at 16A nowadays, so all* BS1362 fuse values
are OK.

So if fuse rating of below 13A are irrelivant, why are they still
advalible...

Well, they don't do any harm either, and BS1362 fuses aren't
only used in plugs.

--
Andrew Gabriel

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ws.net,
:::Jerry:::: wrote:

The point is, it doesn't need a lunatic, let the person who has never
put the wrong fuse in a BS1363 plug just get things working cast the
first stone, let the person who then remembers to replace it A.S.A.P
cast the second...


I can only remember having to replace one or two fuses, and those were 13
amp types. Most appliances which are fused at less than 13 amp will be
things like AV equipment and have internal fuses which will blow first
anyway.

Not with you on that one. The function of plug fuses was to protect the
lead. An excess of fault current through a damaged and shorted thin
cable normally used to carrying half an amp will cause heating and a
fire risk. Internal fuses may be ineffective here.

--
Adrian C

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
:::Jerry:::: wrote:

Or find a nail, bolt or bit of wire that will fit, the final
protection needs to be taken away from the idiots who can and have
done such things.

You should work in government! That sounds like just the sort of
attitude the ODPM would love ;-)

You are pathetic. The point is how to make a circuit idiot proof. We are
not interested in your Little Middle England pro Tory and anti Blair crap.

"Alan" wrote in message
...
In message , Andy Hall
wrote


You may not use plastic pipe nor push fittings for gas.


Wrong - Transco use plastic pipes !

Only for underground work. Plastic pipes are not allowed overground, apart
from the stubs emerging from the ground.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Trouble is pratts like Drivel see such things posted here and believe them.
And it's bad enough him flooding a house because he can't make a decent
plastic pipe joint. Gawd knows what the end result would be when he uses
this for gas.

If in his own house, a lot fewer postings to this group.

Owain

In message , Doctor Drivel
writes

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
:::Jerry:::: wrote:

Or find a nail, bolt or bit of wire that will fit, the final
protection needs to be taken away from the idiots who can and have
done such things.

You should work in government! That sounds like just the sort of
attitude the ODPM would love ;-)

You are pathetic. The point is how to make a circuit idiot proof. We are
not interested in your Little Middle England pro Tory and anti Blair crap.


You mean this chappie ?

http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Tony_Blair

--
geoff

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Huge wrote:
In the past you had to employ a Corgi registered fitter for gas but
with plastic pipes and push fittings anyone can now do it.


There has never and is no legislation requiring you to employ a CORGI
registered fitter. However, somebody who does gas fitting
professionally must be CORGI registered. It is a requirement that
anybody doing gas fitting be competent; but given this pre-requisite,
the law does not prevent you doing your own.

You may not use plastic pipe nor push fittings for gas.

Forgot to engage your sense of humour?

Trouble is pratts like

This man never serviced his gas boiler for 18 years and was advising others
to do the same. Take no notice of him. On personal contact you would
ignore him, but on the internet his views come up. Sad but true. Whe you
see his name, have a prat alert in your mind, and move on.

In message , Alan
writes
In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote

Nor could you obtain fittings to connect their
stuff to your cooker.


What's wrong with garden hose and duct tape?

As my brother found when he moved into his new house

--
geoff