In article ws.net,
:::Jerry:::: wrote:
So, if the fuse blows you like hauling out the appliance do you, and
wire fuses can and do blow for other reason than a faulty appliance
etc.

They may with you. They don't with others - apart from once in a very blue
moon.

--
*My designated driver drove me to drink

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ws.net,
:::Jerry:::: wrote:
Sigh. I never sight sockets in such a place as to make this
necessary.


So you drill bloody great holes into cupboards and then fill the
space with electrical hardware instead....

No, I install a flush socket neatly. Now I understand others may not be
able to manage this, but...

--
*Money isn‘t everything, but it sure keeps the kids in touch

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ws.net,
:::Jerry:::: wrote:
How, lighting would not be on a radial anyway, it would be on a
lighting circuit.

Jerry, go and read some books. And then come back an tell us what a
lighting circuit is, if not a radial.

--
*Warning: Dates in Calendar are closer than they appear.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article
ws.net,
:::Jerry:::: wrote:
So, if the fuse blows you like hauling out the appliance do you,
and
wire fuses can and do blow for other reason than a faulty
appliance
etc.

They may with you. They don't with others - apart from once in a
very blue
moon.


As you say, they do, and if they do in your ideal installation it
means hauling out the appliance or emptying a cupboard first....

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article
ws.net,
:::Jerry:::: wrote:
Sigh. I never sight sockets in such a place as to make this
necessary.


So you drill bloody great holes into cupboards and then fill the
space with electrical hardware instead....

No, I install a flush socket neatly. Now I understand others may
not be
able to manage this, but...


You still need a big hole and still have a cable in the cupboard
though... Yes, very neat - NOT!

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article
ws.net,
:::Jerry:::: wrote:
How, lighting would not be on a radial anyway, it would be on a
lighting circuit.

Jerry, go and read some books. And then come back an tell us what a
lighting circuit is, if not a radial.


So is a spur off a ring for that matter, except that most lighting
circuits [1] are fuse at 5 or 6 amps -not 30 amps as a ring is....

[1] forgetting for a moment that many if not most domestic lighting
circuits are in fact loops (rings) with radial switch drops - any
(non remotely switched) lighting sockets would be likely to be part
of such a loop or be on the same loop-in / loop-out principle.

In article ws.net,
:::Jerry:::: wrote:
They may with you. They don't with others - apart from once in a very
blue moon.

As you say, they do, and if they do in your ideal installation it means
hauling out the appliance

No, they are in the adjoining cupboard.

or emptying a cupboard first....

Your under sink etc cupboards are all filled to the very top? What with?
Not words of wisdom, surely?

--
*A closed mouth gathers no feet.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ws.net,
:::Jerry:::: wrote:
Jerry, go and read some books. And then come back an tell us what a
lighting circuit is, if not a radial.


So is a spur off a ring for that matter,

No - that's a spur. ;-)

except that most lighting circuits [1] are fuse at 5 or 6 amps -not 30
amps as a ring is....

But you're talking about power radials, and these are normally fused at 20
amps. Fuse one at 6 amps and it's no longer a power circuit.

[1] forgetting for a moment that many if not most domestic lighting
circuits are in fact loops (rings) with radial switch drops - any
(non remotely switched) lighting sockets would be likely to be part
of such a loop or be on the same loop-in / loop-out principle.

Lighting circuits aren't rings. The minimum size TW&E - 1mm - is perfectly
capable of dealing with a fault on a 6 amp circuit as it's rated at 14
amps.

The reason why rings aren't used is that you can guess more accurately the
load, since all lighting outlets will near always have a load. A power
ring might have many sockets with no 'permanent' load or just a tiny one,
like say cordless phone base station. That's why it's such a versatile
system which has stood the test of time.

Room lighting circuits tend to be fairly fixed in that context.

--
*Happiness is seeing your mother-in-law on a milk carton

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

:::Jerry:::: wrote:

Why not a double pole switch above the worktop feeding a single
unswitched socket below. This is they way it is usually wired, works
just fine and saves having to rewire the plug on the appliacnce (and all
the associated problems that brings).

So, if the fuse blows you like hauling out the appliance do you, and

Yup sure.

Based on the number of times I have had a kitchen appliance blow a fuse
that equates to never. I can live with that rate...

wire fuses can and do blow for other reason than a faulty appliance

If you say so...

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article
ws.net,
:::Jerry:::: wrote:
snip

or emptying a cupboard first....

Your under sink etc cupboards are all filled to the very top? What
with?
Not words of wisdom, surely?


Who said anything about under sink cupboards...

And what if the unit next to the appliance is one full of draws?

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article
ws.net,
:::Jerry:::: wrote:
Jerry, go and read some books. And then come back an tell us
what a
lighting circuit is, if not a radial.


So is a spur off a ring for that matter,

No - that's a spur. ;-)

except that most lighting circuits [1] are fuse at 5 or 6
amps -not 30
amps as a ring is....

But you're talking about power radials, and these are normally
fused at 20
amps. Fuse one at 6 amps and it's no longer a power circuit.

Well I wouldn't call .75mm flex (2192Y type stuff) flex as a 'power'
rated flex, but hay-ho if you want to supply a 3Kw fire off it....


[1] forgetting for a moment that many if not most domestic
lighting
circuits are in fact loops (rings) with radial switch drops - any
(non remotely switched) lighting sockets would be likely to be
part
of such a loop or be on the same loop-in / loop-out principle.

Lighting circuits aren't rings. The minimum size TW&E - 1mm - is
perfectly
capable of dealing with a fault on a 6 amp circuit as it's rated at
14
amps.

We are talking about the physical layout of cables.


The reason why rings aren't used is that you can guess more
accurately the
load, since all lighting outlets will near always have a load. A
power
ring might have many sockets with no 'permanent' load or just a
tiny one,
like say cordless phone base station. That's why it's such a
versatile
system which has stood the test of time.

Room lighting circuits tend to be fairly fixed in that context.


You are talking about diversity, if you have a ring circuit that you
know will be loaded heavily all the time you might have to consider
installing more than on final ring circuit - just as happens with
lighting circuits.

Steve Firth wrote:
Huge wrote:

Idiots are far too cunning to be easily defeated.

Indeed.

I can remember somepone making a plastic injection moulding machine
"idiot proof" by putting an interlock switch on the door so that the
machine could only be activated by closing the door and pressing a
separate button.

Did it stop people getting their hands caught in the machine? No
because the idiots discovered that if you jammed the activation button
permanently on with a match, the machine could be operated much faster
by just sliding the door back and forwards.

Power nailers have two thigs to do before they fire - the trigger and a
spring loaded nose that has to be compressed before it will fire.

US roofers have been known to tape the trigger shut so that it fires every
time they dab it on the wood.

Which is fine until one was climbing down a ladder with his nailer hanging
by his side and a workmate walked past and got a 6" glued nail attaching his
hard hat to his head. I believe he survived though...

:::Jerry:::: wrote:
"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
Jerry:::: wrote:

Or find a nail, bolt or bit of wire that will fit, the final
protection needs to be taken away from the idiots who can and have
done such things.

You should work in government! That sounds like just the sort of
attitude the ODPM would love ;-)

The problem with such nannyism, is that in any many cases you can't
take the facilities away from the "few idiots" without causing major
irritation to the majority of (competant) people in the process.


Well, lets go back to bare wires and crock-clips, as even the present
regulations causes such irritation to the majority, and if they wish
to kill themselves then that's Darwinism...

I've used car jump leads to short out some large mains filters to remove ~6A
of noise current on the earth line in a new building (which was doing all
the phones in) - does that count?

And yes it did get fixed 'properly' after a few weeks.. ;-)

:::Jerry:::: wrote:
or emptying a cupboard first....
And what if the unit next to the appliance is one full of draws?

Even easier. Pull draw out, lift, wiggle, lift entire drawer and
contents from unit.

Repeat four times.

Reassembly is the reverse of disassembly.

Owain

:::Jerry:::: wrote:
Room lighting circuits tend to be fairly fixed in that context.
You are talking about diversity, if you have a ring circuit that you
know will be loaded heavily all the time you might have to consider
installing more than on final ring circuit - just as happens with
lighting circuits.

Not at all as happens with lighting circuits. Diversity is *not* used in
calculating lighting circuit capacity. In fact lighting circuits are
over rated as each point is rated at 100W min, even if it's a 9W fluoro.

Try reading the Wiring Regs.

Owain

In article ws.net,
:::Jerry:::: wrote:
Your under sink etc cupboards are all filled to the very top? What
with? Not words of wisdom, surely?

Who said anything about under sink cupboards...

You did. Cupboards.

And what if the unit next to the appliance is one full of draws?

Yes - I always draw things out first. Using !Draw.

But if it was a nest of drawers, even better. You simply line up the
socket with the back of one so no chance of a cupboard being piled high
with words of wisdom.

My stopcock to cut off the mains pressure feed to everywhere other than
the kitchen is situated behind a drawer between the microwave and double
oven. Very convenient to get at, if needed.

--
*Also too, never, ever use repetitive redundancies *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ws.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:

No true. This man is walking disaster zone..

How's

Just as well the neighbours don't know how dangerous his gas appliances are.
They are ear a potential time bomb.

snip senile babble

":::Jerry::::" wrote in message
eenews.net...

Nah, he's still

snip drivel from a halfwit who kept saying the same thing time and time
again on an electrical thread. Boy was he boring and dumb. Him and Plowman
deserve each other.

On Tue, 02 Aug 2005 21:00:37 GMT, "PC Paul" wrote:


Which is fine until one was climbing down a ladder with his nailer hanging
by his side and a workmate walked past and got a 6" glued nail attaching his
hard hat to his head. I believe he survived though...

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/...in615843.shtml



--
Peter Parry.
http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/

"Owain" wrote in message
...
:::Jerry:::: wrote:
or emptying a cupboard first....
And what if the unit next to the appliance is one full of draws?

Even easier. Pull draw out, lift, wiggle, lift entire drawer and
contents from unit.

Repeat four times.

Reassembly is the reverse of disassembly.


And I can just see some being able to do that ! The real world is not
were you live, obviously...

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article
ws.net,
:::Jerry:::: wrote:
Your under sink etc cupboards are all filled to the very top?
What
with? Not words of wisdom, surely?

Who said anything about under sink cupboards...

You did. Cupboards.

And what if the unit next to the appliance is one full of draws?

Yes - I always draw things out first. Using !Draw.

But if it was a nest of drawers, even better. You simply line up
the
socket with the back of one so no chance of a cupboard being piled
high
with words of wisdom.

My stopcock to cut off the mains pressure feed to everywhere other
than
the kitchen is situated behind a drawer between the microwave and
double
oven. Very convenient to get at, if needed.


Until you really do need to get to it quickly, it's quite amazing how
a draw always jams shut at the most inappropriate moment...

"Owain" wrote in message
...
:::Jerry:::: wrote:
Room lighting circuits tend to be fairly fixed in that context.
You are talking about diversity, if you have a ring circuit that
you
know will be loaded heavily all the time you might have to
consider
installing more than on final ring circuit - just as happens with
lighting circuits.

Not at all as happens with lighting circuits. Diversity is *not*
used in
calculating lighting circuit capacity.

I know, that's what I said!

In fact lighting circuits are
over rated as each point is rated at 100W min, even if it's a 9W
fluoro.

Try reading the Wiring Regs.


Try reading what is said by others before you make stupid comment
that just make you look like a total f*ckwit.

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
eenews.net...

snip

snip senile babble


Wish you would, trouble is, you snip others advise but leave you own
clap-trap...

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
eenews.net...

":::Jerry::::" wrote in message
eenews.net...

Nah, he's still

snip drivel from a halfwit who kept saying the same thing time and
time
again on an electrical thread. Boy was he boring and dumb. Him
and Plowman
deserve each other.


Bit like you and two Combies then.....

":::Jerry::::" wrote in message
eenews.net...

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
eenews.net...

snip

snip senile babble


Wish you would,

I did.

":::Jerry::::" wrote in message
eenews.net...

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
eenews.net...

":::Jerry::::" wrote in message
eenews.net...

Nah, he's still

snip drivel from a halfwit who kept saying the same thing time and
time
again on an electrical thread. Boy was he boring and dumb. Him
and Plowman
deserve each other.

Bit like you

No,. not like me, I don't take anything seriously you two turkeys say, as
most is utter babble.

Peter Parry wrote:
On Tue, 02 Aug 2005 21:00:37 GMT, "PC Paul" wrote:


Which is fine until one was climbing down a ladder with his nailer
hanging by his side and a workmate walked past and got a 6" glued
nail attaching his hard hat to his head. I believe he survived
though...

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/...in615843.shtml

Hmm. 'Ouch' seems sadly inadequate...

PC Paul wrote:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/...in615843.shtml


Hmm. 'Ouch' seems sadly inadequate...

Could be worse:

http://www.snopes.com/horrors/techno/drillbit.asp




--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In article ws.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
No true. This man is walking disaster zone..

How's

Just as well the neighbours don't know how dangerous his gas appliances
are. They are ear a potential time bomb.

Aren't all gas appliances a potential time bomb?

But mine are all looked after and checked regularly. Since you don't know
how to do this I'd be more worried about your neighbours. Of course,
flooding their houses as you do might make them safer.

--
*When did my wild oats turn to prunes and all bran?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In message ws.net,
":::Jerry::::" wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article
ws.net,
:::Jerry:::: wrote:
How, lighting would not be on a radial anyway, it would be on a
lighting circuit.

Jerry, go and read some books. And then come back an tell us what a
lighting circuit is, if not a radial.


So is a spur off a ring for that matter, except that most lighting
circuits [1] are fuse at 5 or 6 amps -not 30 amps as a ring is....

[1] forgetting for a moment that many if not most domestic lighting
circuits are in fact loops (rings) with radial switch drops - any
(non remotely switched) lighting sockets would be likely to be part
of such a loop or be on the same loop-in / loop-out principle.



Perhaps some definitions are called for.

1: A RADIAL circuit radiates out from the source (i.e. the CU) to the
point(s) of utilisation, and terminates at the last one thus:

CU - fuse - fitting - fitting - fitting

2: A RING circuit travels out in two directions from the CU, meeting in
the middle. Or to put it another way, it leaves the CU on one bit of
wire and returns on another thus:

/- fitting - fitting - fitting -\
CU - fuse |
\- fitting - fitting - fitting -/

3: A SPUR is a "branch" from the main backbone of a circuit, be it ring
or radial. For radial circuits this isn't a problem, and radials are
permitted to have any sensible layout you like. Ring circuits, being
protected at a rating higher than the capacity of a single length of the
circuit cable are limited to having either just one single fitting on
the spur, or several fittings protected by a common fuse of maximum 13A:

unfused spur
|
/- fitting -+- fitting - fitting -\
CU - fuse |
\- fitting -+- fitting - fitting -/
|
fuse
|
fitting
|
fitting


(Gone cross-eyed with all those fittings!)

Sockets circuits are either radial or ring. In Britain, lighting
circuits are always radial AFAIAA. The switch drops might confuse
matters for the uninitiated, but the fact is that there is no second run
of cable making the circuit into a ring:


CU - fuse - junction box - junction box - (etc.)
L N
| |
\-sw-lamp-/

Confusion sometimes arises from the fact that most textbooks talk about
"loop in" and "junction box" wiring systems. In fact both systems are
electrically *identical*. The only physical difference is that for
loop-in the junction box is part of the light fitting (the rose) while
it is a separate item for the "junction box" system. Most lighting
circuits are a mixture of the two, particularly if a lot of "fancy"
light fittings are used which do not contain enough terminals (or wiring
space) to perform the switch-loop function.

There is no need to wire it as a ring as the load on the circuit is
fairly well understood, and is pretty light. Sockets circuits are rated
at up to 7.5kW (30A), but even my house doesn't come close to 7.5kW of
lighting. The ring circuit means that 7.5kW can be distributed using
2.5mm2 cable which is a *lot* easier to handle than the 4mm2 or 6mm2
which would be required for a similarly specified radial.

A lighting circuit, rated at 1400W (6A) doesn't even need 2.5mm2 cable.
1mm2 is more than adequate (rated at 11A worst case) and is very easy to
handle, so there is no reason to use a ring simply to allow the use of
smaller CSA cable. Some people use 1.5mm2 cable which is rated 14A worst
case, and allows the use of a 10A MCB so long as all switches and
fittings are 10A rated.

1400W is 14 * 100W lamps, which is more than enough for each floor of
most normally-sized houses. Even with a load of energy-guzzling mains
halogen downlighters in our kitchen, our house downstairs maximum
lighting load is only 1050W, counting each standard bayonet fitting as
100W (which you have to do) even though most of them have 20W CFLs
installed.

Erm... isn't this rather OT?

Hwyl!

M.

--
Martin Angove: http://www.tridwr.demon.co.uk/
Two free issues: http://www.livtech.co.uk/ Living With Technology
.... This is 1 FM. - Quick Mr. Worf close the bloomin' hailing frequencies.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ws.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
No true. This man is walking disaster zone..

How's

Just as well the neighbours don't know how dangerous his gas appliances
are. They are ear a potential time bomb.

Aren't all gas appliances a potential time bomb?

In your house they certainly are. They laws should be stricter to stop the
likes of you. I would have you jailed.

In article ws.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Just as well the neighbours don't know how dangerous his gas
appliances are. They are ear a potential time bomb.

Aren't all gas appliances a potential time bomb?

In your house they certainly are. They laws should be stricter to stop
the likes of you. I would have you jailed.

But to jail someone you'd have to go through the due process of law where
the lies and sort of speculation you indulge in here all the time aren't
allowed. And that's before the judge sending you down for being drunk in
court.

So I'll repeat my oft asked question of you. Just what would *you* service
on a boiler once a year as you imply is necessary?

And the lack of sensible reply will tell it all.

--
*Why do they put Braille on the drive-through bank machines?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ws.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:

Just as well the neighbours don't know how dangerous his gas
appliances are. They are near a potential time bomb.

Aren't all gas appliances a potential time bomb?

In your house they certainly are. They laws should be stricter to stop
the likes of you. I would have you jailed.

But to jail someone you'd have to go through the due process of law

You are dumb. I am saying the law should be changed to have the likes of
you jailed.

snip drivel

In article ws.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
But to jail someone you'd have to go through the due process of law

You are dumb. I am saying the law should be changed to have the likes of
you jailed.

Well yes. You want everything changed to suit your drunken ramblings.

Nothing new there, then.

What would you service once a year on a boiler, I ask again.?

Question to difficult for you?

No surprise, then.

--
*i souport publik edekashun.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ws.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
But to jail someone you'd have to go through the due process of law

You are dumb. I am saying the law should be changed to have the likes
of
you jailed.

Well yes.

Thank you. You should be jailed.

"Jim Michaels" wrote in message
...

So if I fit a BS1363 plug cap with a 32amp fuse and 4mm lead it would
be acceptable to power an arc welder (or other device) drawing 30amps
from any ring that is handy?

It would be fine if the first thing you did was to weld the plug pins to the
socket. 8-¦

Its probably easier to fit a bigger connector.

Jim Michaels wrote:

So if I fit a BS1363 plug cap with a 32amp fuse and 4mm lead it would
be acceptable to power an arc welder (or other device) drawing 30amps
from any ring that is handy?

No, the plug itself is only rated for 13A. As is the socket.

On a practical level you would be hard pushed to terminate 4mm^2 wires
in an ordinary plug, let alone get the cord grip on.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Jim Michaels wrote:
Two 16amp radials equal one 32amp ring.
House with 3 rings versus one with 6 (or more) radials.
How do they really differ in capacity?

Because you can put three 10A appliances on one 32A ring in *any* socket
combination. You can only put one on each 16A radial, so two radials
will only feed two such appliances, *one on each radial*. If you try
plugging both into the same radial you will overload the circuit. Hence
you have the stupid situation of having to think "I can't plug this in
here but I can plug it in over there".

Owain

Jim Michaels wrote:
So if I fit a BS1363 plug cap with a 32amp fuse and 4mm lead it would
be acceptable to power an arc welder (or other device) drawing 30amps
from any ring that is handy?

No of course it wouldn't and you know it; it is presenting an
unacceptable point load. Ring circuits are *designed* around certain
parameters all of which work *together*

Owain

In article ,
Jim Michaels wrote:
All radials tend to have a limit on the number of socket outlets per
circuit.

Not true.

According to a Dutch pal this is the case there. Dunno about the US.

--
*Growing old is inevitable, growing up is optional

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.