Owain wrote:
Jim Michaels wrote:

Two 16amp radials equal one 32amp ring.
House with 3 rings versus one with 6 (or more) radials.
How do they really differ in capacity?


Because you can put three 10A appliances on one 32A ring in *any* socket
combination. You can only put one on each 16A radial, so two radials
will only feed two such appliances, *one on each radial*. If you try
plugging both into the same radial you will overload the circuit. Hence
you have the stupid situation of having to think "I can't plug this in
here but I can plug it in over there".

Yes, and if I want a double socket for my kettle and toaster it would
require two radials to the same location. At which point all the wiring
for a ring is in place.


--
David Clark

$message_body_include ="PLES RING IF AN RNSR IS REQIRD"

On Mon, 08 Aug 2005 00:01:16 -0500, Jim Michaels
wrote:

On Sun, 07 Aug 2005 13:40:46 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

Jim Michaels wrote:

So if I fit a BS1363 plug cap with a 32amp fuse and 4mm lead it would
be acceptable to power an arc welder (or other device) drawing 30amps
from any ring that is handy?

No, the plug itself is only rated for 13A. As is the socket.


And nobody sees a problem with 13a sockets on a 32amp circuit?

No, because they are engineered to way above 13A in terms of the
contacts. The 13A refers to the maximum current taken through a plug
via the fuse.

They are of a substantially higher quality as well - $10 and up being
typical rather than 99c.


--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Jim Michaels wrote:
No of course it wouldn't and you know it; it is presenting an
unacceptable point load. Ring circuits are *designed* around certain
parameters all of which work *together*
So two 3kW kettles in a double socket is not acceptable?

It's not desirable, but in a domestic environment (and I've lived in
shared houses with two kettles, to cater for the home-from-work tea
stampede) they're only going to be used occasionally.

In a commercial kitchen (which could include a house doing B&B) more
appropriate provision should be made. Ring circuits should only be
installed where they are *suitable for the load*.

Owain

Jim Michaels wrote:
And nobody sees a problem with 13a sockets on a 32amp circuit?

No more than a 100A service fuse on a ????A ring main off a substation.

Owain

In article ,
Jim Michaels writes:
So two 3kW kettles in a double socket is not acceptable?

People don't generally have two kettles in the same place,
but it would be no problem given a 3kW kettle can't be on
for long anyway.

--
Andrew Gabriel

In article ,
Jim Michaels writes:

And nobody sees a problem with 13a sockets on a 32amp circuit?

No, they're fused at 13A max.

I don't have a copy of BS1363, but I think manufacturers are
required to show their 13A plugs and sockets will run at 26A
for a hour without any problems, and are then required to
overload test them to destruction, and to show they don't
fail in grossly unsafe ways. The test requirements for BS1363
products are one of the most onerous of any test procedure.

--
Andrew Gabriel

Jim Michaels wrote:

And nobody sees a problem with 13a sockets on a 32amp circuit?

No. They are fused at (a maximum) of 13A anyway.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Jim Michaels wrote:

So two 3kW kettles in a double socket is not acceptable?

It is not ideal, but in a domestic situation you can generally ignore
such loads in your diversity calculations since they are such short
duration.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In article , Andrew
Gabriel wrote:
I don't have a copy of BS1363, but I think manufacturers are
required to show their 13A plugs and sockets will run at 26A
for a hour without any problems,

When you look at American or Australian plugs with a fraction of the
metal in the pins I wouldn't expect any.

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk
Free SEDBUK boiler database browser http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm
[Latest version QSEDBUK 1.10 released 4 April 2005]

In article ,
Jim Michaels wrote:
And nobody sees a problem with 13a sockets on a 32amp circuit?

In practice few sockets round the house are likely to be loaded to
anything near this, since heavy *continuous* loads like heating ain't
normally done off the ring main. The likely sockets which will have this
sort of loading - but not *continuous* - are in the kitchen, where there
will usually be a separate ring. And the wiring for the average ring is
capable of carrying more than 32 amps anyway.

--
*Before they invented drawing boards, what did they go back to?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Owain wrote:
So two 3kW kettles in a double socket is not acceptable?

It's not desirable, but in a domestic environment (and I've lived in
shared houses with two kettles, to cater for the home-from-work tea
stampede) they're only going to be used occasionally.

In a commercial kitchen (which could include a house doing B&B) more
appropriate provision should be made. Ring circuits should only be
installed where they are *suitable for the load*.

Yup. Commercial installations where continuous loads can be accurately
calculated are likely to use radial circuits - even if fitted with 13 amp
outlets.

If you intended heating every room in a house with a fan heater etc on all
the time to give 'central' heating, a ring wouldn't be appropriate.

Load diversity is the key, and it's applied to things normally fed via a
radial in the home like cookers and hobs too.

--
*If I throw a stick, will you leave?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Jim Michaels wrote:
So if I fit a BS1363 plug cap with a 32amp fuse and 4mm lead it would
be acceptable to power an arc welder (or other device) drawing 30amps
from any ring that is handy?


Either the socket is adequate for the 32amp circuit it is on or it
isn't. Relying on whatever is plugged into it to not draw too much is
far from idiot proof, it isn't even non expert proof.

Are you trying to say that all sockets on radials are capable of carrying
the full rating of that radial as a continuous load? Because this doesn't
seem to be the case in most counties.


Anyone want to buy non-fused BS1363 style plugs?

They've got nothing to do with BS1363, and have no type approval anywhere.

--
*When companies ship Styrofoam, what do they pack it in? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
"Dave Plowman (News)" writes:
In article ,
Jim Michaels wrote:
Either the socket is adequate for the 32amp circuit it is on or it
isn't. Relying on whatever is plugged into it to not draw too much is
far from idiot proof, it isn't even non expert proof.

It could be that the countries which use BS1363 plugs also
happen to have fewer idiots than those that don't, but I
rather doubt that's the reason it's gtenerally regarded as
the safest plug in the world.

Anyone want to buy non-fused BS1363 style plugs?

They've got nothing to do with BS1363, and have no type approval anywhere.

Not to mention the 6 months in prison and £5000 fine for anyone
importing them into the UK.

--
Andrew Gabriel

On 09 Aug 2005 20:21:59 GMT,it is alleged that
(Andrew Gabriel) spake thusly in uk.d-i-y:

Not to mention the 6 months in prison and 5000 fine for anyone
importing them into the UK.

The world *finally* went crazy. 6months and a fine for a plug?


--
There are three things which I consider excellent advice. First, don't
smoke to excess. Second, don't drink to excess.
Third, don't marry to excess.
- Mark Twain

In article t,
Chip writes:
On 09 Aug 2005 20:21:59 GMT,it is alleged that
(Andrew Gabriel) spake thusly in uk.d-i-y:

Not to mention the 6 months in prison and 5000 fine for anyone
importing them into the UK.

The world *finally* went crazy. 6months and a fine for a plug?

It's aimed at stopping importers from importing non-compliant
goods. It seems to work -- it's sufficiently rare to come
across a non-conforming 13A plug in the UK that most people
have never seen one at all.

The main market for non-conforming 13A plugs were cheap goods
made in China for Hong Kong residents to buy when visiting and
take home to Hong Kong. However, the Hong Kong authorities
have started becoming more strict with this insisting on full
BS1363 compliance, and it may be the market for non-conforming
13A plugs becomes too small to remain viable.

It was interesting to see how expensive that non-conforming
cordset was -- more expensive than conforming ones in the UK.

--
Andrew Gabriel

On 09 Aug 2005 21:52:20 GMT,it is alleged that
(Andrew Gabriel) spake thusly in uk.d-i-y:

In article t,
Chip writes:
On 09 Aug 2005 20:21:59 GMT,it is alleged that
(Andrew Gabriel) spake thusly in uk.d-i-y:

Not to mention the 6 months in prison and 5000 fine for anyone
importing them into the UK.

The world *finally* went crazy. 6months and a fine for a plug?

It's aimed at stopping importers from importing non-compliant
goods. It seems to work -- it's sufficiently rare to come
across a non-conforming 13A plug in the UK that most people
have never seen one at all.

The main market for non-conforming 13A plugs were cheap goods
made in China for Hong Kong residents to buy when visiting and
take home to Hong Kong. However, the Hong Kong authorities
have started becoming more strict with this insisting on full
BS1363 compliance, and it may be the market for non-conforming
13A plugs becomes too small to remain viable.

It was interesting to see how expensive that non-conforming
cordset was -- more expensive than conforming ones in the UK.

I am hoping the fine is for 'importing and offering for sale' rather
than aimed at the hapless tourist who obtains one while overseas for
whatever reason. (I think this is probably the case.)

I do recall coming across a batch of these in 1991 or 92, while doing
safety tests on new IT equipment. They turned up with a batch of
printers from the middle east (I believe iraq uses BS1363 /style/
outlets). Possibly due to 'oh, iraq is now the bad guy, we have to
offload these cords somewhere'. The cord was BASEC approved, and the
IEC connector was fine, so we fitted MK toughplugs, 5A fuses, and
billed for it. Also noted is the lack of sleeving on the prongs, and
likely non-electrical grade metal used for the pins.


--
There are three things which I consider excellent advice. First, don't
smoke to excess. Second, don't drink to excess.
Third, don't marry to excess.
- Mark Twain

In article t,
Chip wrote:
Not to mention the 6 months in prison and 5000 fine for anyone
importing them into the UK.

The world *finally* went crazy. 6months and a fine for a plug?

Yup. Should be the death sentence. Since only wallies like Jim seem think
it a good idea.

Every appliance capable of being plugged into a ring main in the UK comes
already fitted with a suitably fused 13 amp plug. By law. Those -
domestically - that aren't, like some cookers and showers need permanent
wiring in the form of a radial, and why not since they're unlikely to be
moved to other rooms. If you really want them to be plugged in rather than
hard wired, then suitable BS connectors are available. At a price. Look at
any commercial kitchen for a clue.

The snag comes with some possibly domestic hobby appliances like large arc
welders and air compressors which fall outside the 13 amp limit, but are
readily available. Let Darwin's law apply for those so foolish to spend
lots of money on those, but expect to modify the wiring on them to use
them on the 13 amp socket in their garage. They're just more wallies.

--
*He who laughs last, thinks slowest.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article t,
Chip writes:
(Andrew Gabriel) spake thusly in uk.d-i-y:

Not to mention the 6 months in prison and 5000 fine for anyone
importing them into the UK.

I am hoping the fine is for 'importing and offering for sale' rather
than aimed at the hapless tourist who obtains one while overseas for
whatever reason. (I think this is probably the case.)

Yes although you would be very wise to work out in advance how
you could show you do not "possess for supply" (Plugs and Sockets
Regs 1994, Consumer Protection Act 1987), i.e. it's for your use.
However, Customs can still confiscate and destroy (not sure what
Act that would be under -- probably something to do with importing
unsafe goods), and there may be potential penalties too.

--
Andrew Gabriel

Chip wrote:
Also noted is the lack of sleeving on the prongs, and
likely non-electrical grade metal used for the pins.

I have lots of plugs with no sleeving, is that part of the Standard?

And non-electrical grade metal? Wassatallabahtden?

On Tue, 09 Aug 2005 22:00:27 GMT, Chip
wrote:

On 09 Aug 2005 21:52:20 GMT,it is alleged that
(Andrew Gabriel) spake thusly in uk.d-i-y:

In article t,
Chip writes:
On 09 Aug 2005 20:21:59 GMT,it is alleged that
(Andrew Gabriel) spake thusly in uk.d-i-y:

Not to mention the 6 months in prison and 5000 fine for anyone
importing them into the UK.

The world *finally* went crazy. 6months and a fine for a plug?

It's aimed at stopping importers from importing non-compliant
goods. It seems to work -- it's sufficiently rare to come
across a non-conforming 13A plug in the UK that most people
have never seen one at all.

The main market for non-conforming 13A plugs were cheap goods
made in China for Hong Kong residents to buy when visiting and
take home to Hong Kong. However, the Hong Kong authorities
have started becoming more strict with this insisting on full
BS1363 compliance, and it may be the market for non-conforming
13A plugs becomes too small to remain viable.

It was interesting to see how expensive that non-conforming
cordset was -- more expensive than conforming ones in the UK.

I am hoping the fine is for 'importing and offering for sale' rather
than aimed at the hapless tourist who obtains one while overseas for
whatever reason. (I think this is probably the case.)



The basis for this is the regulations surrounding the use of the CE
mark on many products, certainly electrical stuff.

The wording in the EU Directives is "placing on the market" and
applies to a manufacturer or representative such as a distributor.

It has been interpreted differently in different countries and the
policing done in different ways. The UK has taken the view that it
means importing and selling and is policed mainly by exception. This
has meant that Trading Standards shoulder most of the responsibility
for that and that it is mainly policing by exception. Thus, in
practice, import for own use does not trigger anything, and probably
the import and sale of the odd cord here and there. Other
countries have policing by Customs and that is a different
proposition.

In practice, in the UK, there have been few prosecutions related to
sale of products not conforming to standards. It is more likely that
these would happen in the event of something bad happening.



--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

In article ,
"PC Paul" writes:
Chip wrote:
Also noted is the lack of sleeving on the prongs, and
likely non-electrical grade metal used for the pins.

I have lots of plugs with no sleeving, is that part of the Standard?

It is now. You cannot sell such appliances without changing
the plugs first. That even applies if you take them along to
a car boot sale to sell yourself or to a fate.

Unsleeved pins are not a cause for a PAT test fail, although
some companies have a policy to replace such plugs during PAT
testing. The even older 13A plugs without the base broadening
near the live and neutral pins is a PAT test failure, although
you are very unlikely to find any of these nowadays.

And non-electrical grade metal? Wassatallabahtden?

Dunno. Many not solid brass bins?

--
Andrew Gabriel

In article ,
Andy Hall writes:
The basis for this is the regulations surrounding the use of the CE
mark on many products, certainly electrical stuff.

The wording in the EU Directives is "placing on the market" and
applies to a manufacturer or representative such as a distributor.

It has been interpreted differently in different countries and the
policing done in different ways. The UK has taken the view that it
means importing and selling and is policed mainly by exception. This
has meant that Trading Standards shoulder most of the responsibility
for that and that it is mainly policing by exception. Thus, in
practice, import for own use does not trigger anything, and probably
the import and sale of the odd cord here and there. Other
countries have policing by Customs and that is a different
proposition.

Actually, illegal plugs is one of the things Trading Standards
are quite proactive on. It tends to be done at point of sale
rather than at import though.

In practice, in the UK, there have been few prosecutions related to
sale of products not conforming to standards. It is more likely that
these would happen in the event of something bad happening.

Plugs and Sockets Regs breaches accounted for 15 prosecutions
over the 5 year period up to 2003.

--
Andrew Gabriel

On 09 Aug 2005 23:08:58 GMT,it is alleged that
(Andrew Gabriel) spake thusly in uk.d-i-y:

In article ,
"PC Paul" writes:
Chip wrote:
Also noted is the lack of sleeving on the prongs, and
likely non-electrical grade metal used for the pins.

I have lots of plugs with no sleeving, is that part of the Standard?

It is now. You cannot sell such appliances without changing
the plugs first. That even applies if you take them along to
a car boot sale to sell yourself or to a fate.

Unsleeved pins are not a cause for a PAT test fail, although
some companies have a policy to replace such plugs during PAT
testing. The even older 13A plugs without the base broadening
near the live and neutral pins is a PAT test failure, although
you are very unlikely to find any of these nowadays.

And non-electrical grade metal? Wassatallabahtden?

Dunno. Many not solid brass bins

The type of brass usually used for plug pins is high conductivity and
has a slight 'give' to it compared to some other alloys. I have found
with cheaper plugs they sometimes seem to have pins made of an alloy
more closely akin to the old Yale keys, which is very brittle and can
snap far more easily.

--
SMS: Abbreviation, multiple meanings-
[1] Short Message Service, cellular telephone messaging method.
[2] SigMonster Sentience, when your sigmonster posts quotes about
sigmonsters.

Jim Michaels wrote:
Yup. Should be the death sentence. Since only wallies like Jim seem think
it a good idea.
What are "wallies", I assume it is derogatory, it does not show up on
the first few pages of Google, nor a standard dictionary?

Wally is china. Your granny might have lived in a tenement with a wally
close (the common stair having tiled walls which was a bit posher than
painted) and had wally dugs on the mantlepiece. She also probably had
wallies which she kept in a glass of water beside the bed (china i.e.
false teeth).

Owain

In article ,
Jim Michaels wrote:
Either the socket is adequate for the 32amp circuit it is on or it
isn't. Relying on whatever is plugged into it to not draw too much
is far from idiot proof, it isn't even non expert proof.

Are you trying to say that all sockets on radials are capable of
carrying the full rating of that radial as a continuous load? Because
this doesn't seem to be the case in most counties.

It certainly is in the US.

So you have one socket outlet per radial circuit? How incredibly wasteful
of cable etc and this also means the vast majority of households won't
have adequate numbers of sockets and rely on unsafe extension leads for
what are in effect permanent installations.

Anyone want to buy non-fused BS1363 style plugs?

They've got nothing to do with BS1363, and have no type approval
anywhere.

They seem to fit into BS1363 sockets and effectively bypass a linchpin
of the BS1363 system.

You can probably find cheap copy brake pads for your car where the pad
material is totally unsuitable, but will fit. Would you think this a good
idea for your car, and therefore the safety of your family? And it doesn't
take many seconds to think of similar things where unscrupulous makers
sell totally unsafe products.

--
*Before they invented drawing boards, what did they go back to?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Jim Michaels wrote:
Are you trying to say that all sockets on radials are capable of
carrying the full rating of that radial as a continuous load? Because
this doesn't seem to be the case in most counties.

It certainly is in the US.


Any single socket on a circuit is capable of the full capacity of the
circuit.

So you have one socket outlet per radial circuit?

Sometimes, not usually.

Err, please explain this. If you have a 10 amp socket (for example) the
radial must be protected by a 10 amp MCB, etc. If you have more than one
10 amp socket, then either the radial will trip if you try to load both to
10 amps, or a 20 amp MCB and wiring would allow a 10 amp socket to be
overloaded by your resident idiot.

How incredibly wasteful of cable etc
and this also means the vast majority of households won't
have adequate numbers of sockets and rely on unsafe extension leads for
what are in effect permanent installations.

As a minimum a socket is required to be within 6 feet horizontally of
everyplace along a wall in residential rooms. Above the kitchen work
tops in is 2 feet.

So just how many ways does the average US CU or whatever contain?


Anyone want to buy non-fused BS1363 style plugs?

They've got nothing to do with BS1363, and have no type approval
anywhere.

They seem to fit into BS1363 sockets and effectively bypass a linchpin
of the BS1363 system.

You can probably find cheap copy brake pads for your car where the pad
material is totally unsuitable, but will fit. Would you think this a
good idea for your car, and therefore the safety of your family? And it
doesn't take many seconds to think of similar things where unscrupulous
makers sell totally unsafe products.

This thread was about idiot proof designs.

You just can't make things idiot proof where unscrupulous manufacturers
are allowed to sell products which contravene standards. And fools buy
them.

Trading Standards in the UK would come down very hard on anyone selling
such things - and rightly so.

I was merely pointing out how resourceful some idiots appear to be.

You seem to be pointing out the beauty of a so called 'free market'
economy where anyone can sell anything.

Drugs which claim to cure cancer? Drugs which say on the box are 'X' and
look like it but are chalk? Is this what you want?

--
*Rehab is for quitters

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 19:28:07 +0100,it is alleged that "Dave Plowman
(News)" spake thusly in uk.d-i-y:

I am sure Jim will come back with answers on this, but from my
knowledge the answers are as follows:

[snip]

Err, please explain this. If you have a 10 amp socket (for example) the
radial must be protected by a 10 amp MCB, etc. If you have more than one
10 amp socket, then either the radial will trip if you try to load both to
10 amps, or a 20 amp MCB and wiring would allow a 10 amp socket to be
overloaded by your resident idiot.

Usually US outlets are 15A rated on a 15 or 20A circuit, (A 20A
circuit MUST contain more than one outlet). The average varies
depending on age of the property, but is probably 4-5 outlets + a
light or 2 per circuit.

Diversity means breaker trips are relatively rare, much as with a UK
ring, only on a smaller scale.

[snip]


As a minimum a socket is required to be within 6 feet horizontally of
everyplace along a wall in residential rooms. Above the kitchen work
tops in is 2 feet.

So just how many ways does the average US CU or whatever contain?


Current NEC requirements specify a maximum of 42 ways (the panel is
usually around 18" by 2'6"). Canadian codes allow for 42 ways in a
lighting and general power panel.

Older 60 or 100 amp services may have as few as 12 ways.

[snip]

Certainly the US system is in no way idiot proof, it contains more
shortcomings than the UK system in respect of potential overloads
through abuse, and it is also simpler to abuse (no chunks of 6" nail
required). However (Just IMHO) when abused, the UK system is more
capable of damage due to the higher power levels available, 32A @ 230v
as opposed to 20A @ 120v, both however are more than capable of
starting a fire.

--
Life is a whim of several billion cells to be you for a while.

"Jim Michaels" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 19:28:07 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Jim Michaels wrote:
Are you trying to say that all sockets on radials are capable of
carrying the full rating of that radial as a continuous load?
Because
this doesn't seem to be the case in most counties.

It certainly is in the US.


Any single socket on a circuit is capable of the full capacity of the
circuit.

So you have one socket outlet per radial circuit?

Sometimes, not usually.

Err, please explain this. If you have a 10 amp socket (for example) the
radial must be protected by a 10 amp MCB, etc. If you have more than one
10 amp socket, then either the radial will trip if you try to load both to
10 amps, or a 20 amp MCB and wiring would allow a 10 amp socket to be
overloaded by your resident idiot.

You are basically correct.

Clearer phrasing...
Any SINGLE socket or a combination of sockets on a circuit can be
loaded to the rating of the circuit.


big snip of interesting exchanges ...

I've been browsing at the posts in this thread ...
it suddenly dawned on me, why - in most USAian TV shows -
albeit mostly filmed in Canada -
whenever somebody is offered tea, the actor pours water
from a kettle boiling on a hob. I can't remember when
I, or my acquaintances, didn't use an electric kettle -
hang on ! I _do_ remember! It was in 1987! On the morning of
the hurricane strike; I uncovered the kettle from the
back of the cupboard -blew off the dust - and put in on the
gas hob ... course I had to strike a match 'cos the 'leccy
was off!


Different folks, different volts/stokes - different appliances!

--

Brian