I initially thought halls together would be preferable, due to TV noise
etc. But I actually find it a lot more disconcerting to be having a
quiet bath when a trumpet-nosed neighbour next door can be heard
blowing his nose. I guess with small bathrooms, you are often closer to
the party wall. Also, banging of kitchen cabinets travels easily
through a solid party wall. An front doors / stairs also tend to be
loud. If I had a large house where rooms could shrink, I would be
tempted to build a cavity wall onto my side and move all the joists
etc. Or better still, win the lottery and buy a detached house.
Any experiences or preferences?
Simon.

In article . com,
wrote:
I initially thought halls together would be preferable, due to TV noise
etc. But I actually find it a lot more disconcerting to be having a
quiet bath when a trumpet-nosed neighbour next door can be heard
blowing his nose. I guess with small bathrooms, you are often closer to
the party wall. Also, banging of kitchen cabinets travels easily
through a solid party wall. An front doors / stairs also tend to be
loud. If I had a large house where rooms could shrink, I would be
tempted to build a cavity wall onto my side and move all the joists
etc. Or better still, win the lottery and buy a detached house.
Any experiences or preferences?

Things like kitchens tend to be the same noise wise in halls adjoining or
not semis. It's the living area and probably one bedroom which benefit
from the noise suppression of the halls adjoining layout. And living areas
tend to be where the Hi-Fi etc is.

Halls 'outsides' are said to use less energy to heat.

--
*Re-elect nobody

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article . com,
writes:
I initially thought halls together would be preferable, due to TV noise
etc. But I actually find it a lot more disconcerting to be having a
quiet bath when a trumpet-nosed neighbour next door can be heard
blowing his nose. I guess with small bathrooms, you are often closer to
the party wall. Also, banging of kitchen cabinets travels easily
through a solid party wall. An front doors / stairs also tend to be
loud. If I had a large house where rooms could shrink, I would be
tempted to build a cavity wall onto my side and move all the joists
etc. Or better still, win the lottery and buy a detached house.
Any experiences or preferences?

I've got 9" brick party wall, with hall/stairs/kitchen/bedroom1
mirrored. The only sounds I hear through the wall are creeking
staircase (which was more noticable with previous occupants)
and someone stirring a mug of coffee on the kitchen worktop
with a teaspoon.

--
Andrew Gabriel

wrote:
I initially thought halls together would be preferable, due to TV noise
etc. But I actually find it a lot more disconcerting to be having a
quiet bath when a trumpet-nosed neighbour next door can be heard
blowing his nose.

What possible bearing does the position of the hall have on the problem
of hearing someone blow their nose whilst you are in the bath? It
depends where the bathroom is, where the neighbour is at the time and
noise insulation (or lack) of the walls.

MBQ

What possible bearing does the position of the hall have on the problem
of hearing someone blow their nose whilst you are in the bath? It
depends where the bathroom is, where the neighbour is at the time and
noise insulation (or lack) of the walls.
Assuming "normal" or at least common house layout in the UK, and "halls
together" is the
standard way of referring to the mirroring in semis. Also assuming
common 9" solid party
wall in 1930-ish semis.
The occasions I have heard his nose, I assume he is in his bathroom the
other side of the wall.
He may have been under a blanket in the living room, but if so his conk
is even more almighty
than I thought !
Simon.

In article .com,
wrote:
What possible bearing does the position of the hall have on the problem
of hearing someone blow their nose whilst you are in the bath? It
depends where the bathroom is, where the neighbour is at the time and
noise insulation (or lack) of the walls.

With the original layout of my 4 bedroom Victorian halls adjoining semi,
the bathroom had an adjoining corridor between it and next door - to allow
access to the fourth bedroom at the back of the rear addition. Same with
the separate inside bog. And probably bog type noises are the ones you
neither wish others to hear - or hear from next door. ;-)

--
*If a pig loses its voice, is it disgruntled?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
news:42a594e7$0$38039

Any experiences or preferences?

I've got 9" brick party wall, with hall/stairs/kitchen/bedroom1
mirrored. The only sounds I hear through the wall are creeking
staircase (which was more noticable with previous occupants)
and someone stirring a mug of coffee on the kitchen worktop
with a teaspoon.

We don't hear anything from our neighbours - dining and sitting rooms, two
double bedrooms are adjacent, halls, stairs, kitchens, toilets and bathrooms
(and dwarf's room) are as far away as possible. It's a good system. Houses
built in 1937. Brick, cavity wall.

Mary

--
Andrew Gabriel

We don't hear anything from our neighbours
It depends a lot on your neighbours. Previous houses I have lived in
had old people,
and you never heard a peep. Until she got deaf that is, and the TV
could even be heard outside in the road.
The worst noise with halls together seems to be children running up and
down the stairs.
That really resonates through the structure. I have not lived in a
house with a cavity party wall. I suspect that would be better.
Simon.

wrote in message
ups.com...
I initially thought halls together would be preferable, due to TV noise
etc. But I actually find it a lot more disconcerting to be having a
quiet bath when a trumpet-nosed neighbour next door can be heard
blowing his nose. I guess with small bathrooms, you are often closer to
the party wall. Also, banging of kitchen cabinets travels easily
through a solid party wall. An front doors / stairs also tend to be
loud. If I had a large house where rooms could shrink, I would be
tempted to build a cavity wall onto my side and move all the joists
etc. Or better still, win the lottery and buy a detached house.
Any experiences or preferences?
Simon.


I have a 3 bed 1930's semi, with halls and stairs apart, living room, master
bedroom and bedroom 2 together.
The only noise I hear through the wall is either when he's DIY'ing (or the
bedroom is being re-fitted like today!) or occasionally, loud music - but
it's got to be really loud for me to notice it through the party wall - far
more noticeable outside in the road!
Older houses seem to be far better in this respect than modern ones, I've
been in many where you can hear the phone, TV stairs etc etc. Luckily we
don't have that problem.

Alan.

wrote in message
oups.com...
We don't hear anything from our neighbours
It depends a lot on your neighbours. Previous houses I have lived in
had old people,
and you never heard a peep. Until she got deaf that is, and the TV
could even be heard outside in the road.
The worst noise with halls together seems to be children running up and
down the stairs.
That really resonates through the structure. I have not lived in a
house with a cavity party wall. I suspect that would be better.
Simon.

That's why I like the stairs to be on the outside of our semis.

Mary

It would be nice (for buyers !) if the party wall had to be rated for
sound transmission. But if you are selling a propery with walls
of tissue paper, not so nice.
Any tips as to how you can tell if the party wall has a cavity or not
from visual inspection ? It seems to me that halls apart with cavity
party wall is the thing to look for. Or better still, no party walls.
Simon.

Older houses seem to be far better in this respect than modern ones, I've
been in many where you can hear the phone, TV stairs etc etc.
Surely this should not be the case. This is something that building
regs
certainly _should_ be involved with.
One thing to notice is that things very close to the party wall come
through
a lot more (inverse square law I guess). Thus, the stairs and the
phone, which is generally right next to the wall on a telephone table.

In article .com,
wrote:
It would be nice (for buyers !) if the party wall had to be rated for
sound transmission. But if you are selling a propery with walls
of tissue paper, not so nice.
Any tips as to how you can tell if the party wall has a cavity or not
from visual inspection ? It seems to me that halls apart with cavity
party wall is the thing to look for. Or better still, no party walls.

Mine has a solid 9" brick wall between the kitchens, etc, and I'd not say
there's problems with that - although I don't sit in silence very often.
;-)

There are more noises from outside anyway.

--
*I'm not your type. I'm not inflatable.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Thus, the stairs and the phone, which is generally right next
to the wall on a telephone table.

How quaint! My grandmother had one of those. Most of us now store our phones
between the cushions of the sofa, or under a pile of newspapers where they
can't be found.

Christian.

wrote:
I initially thought halls together would be preferable, due to TV noise
etc. But I actually find it a lot more disconcerting to be having a
quiet bath when a trumpet-nosed neighbour next door can be heard
blowing his nose.

sounds like you need to fit some nose insulation.

NT

Christian McArdle wrote:

Thus, the stairs and the phone, which is generally right next
to the wall on a telephone table.

How quaint! My grandmother had one of those. Most of us now store our phones
between the cushions of the sofa, or under a pile of newspapers where they
can't be found.

Or in the pocket of a pair of jeans.
Which are in the washing machine......

Sheila

wrote:
I initially thought halls together would be preferable, due to TV noise
etc. But I actually find it a lot more disconcerting to be having a
quiet bath when a trumpet-nosed neighbour next door can be heard
blowing his nose. I guess with small bathrooms, you are often closer to
the party wall. Also, banging of kitchen cabinets travels easily
through a solid party wall. An front doors / stairs also tend to be
loud. If I had a large house where rooms could shrink, I would be
tempted to build a cavity wall onto my side and move all the joists
etc. Or better still, win the lottery and buy a detached house.
Any experiences or preferences?
Simon.

Avoid semis/terraced properties. When you've lived in a detached, even
when the gap is only a metre or so, you'll never go back (until you're gaga)

In article ,
OldBill wrote:
Avoid semis/terraced properties. When you've lived in a detached, even
when the gap is only a metre or so, you'll never go back (until you're
gaga)

Easy to say. But in many Victorian areas detached houses are either rare
or extremely expensive. And the alternative newer house - although
possibly better sound insulated - is likely to be very much smaller.

--
*Why is it called tourist season if we can't shoot at them?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
t...
Thus, the stairs and the phone, which is generally right next
to the wall on a telephone table.

How quaint! My grandmother had one of those. Most of us now store our
phones
between the cushions of the sofa, or under a pile of newspapers where they
can't be found.

This is topical.

Our fax/answerphone is dying. The phone part still works, the BEEP BEEP
still works aarrrrrrrrrrrrrggggh but the thing doesn't record messages,
the fax part sulks and the monitor doesn't work.

We need a new one and I intended asking if anyone had any suggestions for a
good one.

The relevance to this thread (so far) is that the present one sits on a
table in the hall. The other (wheelie) phones are in the bedroom, sitting
room and dining room and there's another attached one in the office.

Just to make it acceptable to this group the telephone table is rather nice
oak, made by my godfather in the 1950s from discarded pews from his local
village church. All legal.

Mary



Christian.

"OldBill" wrote in message
...


Avoid semis/terraced properties. When you've lived in a detached, even
when the gap is only a metre or so, you'll never go back (until you're
gaga)

As long as you can afford the heating without someone else's insulation.

Mary

On 07 Jun 2005, wrote

I initially thought halls together would be preferable, due to TV
noise etc. But I actually find it a lot more disconcerting to be
having a quiet bath when a trumpet-nosed neighbour next door can
be heard blowing his nose. I guess with small bathrooms, you are
often closer to the party wall. Also, banging of kitchen cabinets
travels easily through a solid party wall. An front doors / stairs
also tend to be loud. If I had a large house where rooms could
shrink, I would be tempted to build a cavity wall onto my side and
move all the joists etc. Or better still, win the lottery and buy
a detached house. Any experiences or preferences?

I've had both (and now live in a "halls together"). It's a trade-off,
but I would never, ever, again buy a "halls apart/share the main walls"
arrangement.

The bathrooms and kitchen sounds you mention can be annoying, but
in my experience sharing the sitting-room wall -- especially when the
stereo and telly's against it -- is way, way more invasive.

(I'll draw a veil over the shared bedroom wall with the "halls apart"
design; she was very loud in her eagerness to please, though.)

--
Cheers,
Harvey

Mary Fisher wrote:
Avoid semis/terraced properties. When you've lived in a detached, even
when the gap is only a metre or so, you'll never go back (until you're
gaga)
As long as you can afford the heating without someone else's insulation.

My neighbour and I are agreed that our flats are significantly colder
when the flat downstairs is unoccupied. We benefit from their heat.

Owain

In article ,
Harvey Van Sickle wrote:
I've had both (and now live in a "halls together"). It's a trade-off,
but I would never, ever, again buy a "halls apart/share the main walls"
arrangement.

The bathrooms and kitchen sounds you mention can be annoying, but
in my experience sharing the sitting-room wall -- especially when the
stereo and telly's against it -- is way, way more invasive.

Yes. In my halls adjoining type I can listen to the stereo at a goodly
level and it can't be heard in next door's living rooms - because I've
checked.

The oldbloke who was two owners ago of next door had his TV in the
kitchen/breakfast room, and he was a bit deaf. You could hear that - and
his two chiming clocks he kept on that mantelpiece.;-)

But it never annoyed me - as I said there's more noise from outside.

--
*Do paediatricians play miniature golf on Wednesdays?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

I have a 3 bed semi (built early 1960's) with the living room/main bedroom adjacent to next doors. The wall is two solid bricks thickness & very dense/hard bricks. Internal walls are also solid. Despite this, noise is a problem & the solid walls seem to actively carry noise through them. Upstairs I put up a stud wall, 2 layers of Wickes insulation board, & two layers of plasterboard (skimmed). Also isolated the frame from the wall/floor with some carpet felt. This had a massive effect on noise transmission. Downstairs, I think a lot of the noise comes through the party wall underneath the suspended wooden floor. Unfortunately, the joists in the house run from side to side (not front to back) & I think this arrangement transmits a lot of noise. When I redecorate the living room, I plan to put up another stud wall from the concrete sub-base under the floor up. I think a lot depends on just how considerate your neighbours are, whether they have theTV too loud or pushed against a wall, & worst of all, putting hi-fi speakers directly on the wall with no soft packing to limit the transmission. My girlfriends house is late 1980's build & the part wall is light blocks (can see in loft). Not sure if cavity (suspect not) but can hear just about everything from next door through this. Next house will definately be detached.

On 7 Jun 2005 05:10:19 -0700, wrote:

I initially thought halls together would be preferable, due to TV noise
etc. But I actually find it a lot more disconcerting to be having a
quiet bath when a trumpet-nosed neighbour next door can be heard
blowing his nose. I guess with small bathrooms, you are often closer to
the party wall. Also, banging of kitchen cabinets travels easily
through a solid party wall. An front doors / stairs also tend to be
loud. If I had a large house where rooms could shrink, I would be
tempted to build a cavity wall onto my side and move all the joists
etc. Or better still, win the lottery and buy a detached house.
Any experiences or preferences?
Simon.

I am lucky to have 2 houses, a semi and a remote farm house / project

In the semi I notice the human noise less, it just all merges together
into a constant thing you get used too.

In the remote farm house, where there is very little human / machinery
noise, I enjoy the sounds of the wildlife, but when one of the
neighbours decides to use a small hover mower to mow an acre of
overgrown grass the noise really winds me up .......

Rick

But it never annoyed me - as I said there's more noise from outside

I think it's mainly at night, when all is quiet. You have to be
conscious of the
neighbours if they've gone to bed etc. You dont feel as "free" as in a
detached
house. Unless you couldn't care less, in which case they may do the
same back !
Simon.

On Wed, 08 Jun 2005 22:18:59 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
OldBill wrote:
Avoid semis/terraced properties. When you've lived in a detached, even
when the gap is only a metre or so, you'll never go back (until you're
gaga)

Easy to say. But in many Victorian areas detached houses are either rare
or extremely expensive. And the alternative newer house - although
possibly better sound insulated - is likely to be very much smaller.

I would go further and say that it's not just victorian areas where
detached houses are rare or prohibitively expensive.

As to answer the OP I would definitely say that all semis should be
designed with the main living area away from the party wall. This is
to avoid noise from the living area of one house affecting the
bedrooms of the other.

The only reason that semis were built with their main living areas
together was to save a few pennies by only having one chimney stack!

Rich.

On Wed, 8 Jun 2005 22:37:54 +0100, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:


"OldBill" wrote in message
...


Avoid semis/terraced properties. When you've lived in a detached, even
when the gap is only a metre or so, you'll never go back (until you're
gaga)

As long as you can afford the heating without someone else's insulation.

I would have thought the cost of this would be negligable. If not, it
could be cheaply improved.

Rich

In article ,
Pufter wrote:
My
girlfriends house is late 1980's build & the part wall is light blocks
(can see in loft). Not sure if cavity (suspect not) but can hear just
about everything from next door through this. Next house will
definately be detached.

I have a pal with an '80s Barret's box terraced house (timber framed)
which although badly built in general has excellent sound insulation. They
appear to have two separate studding walls between them with double
thickness plasterboard and sound absorbing/insulation between them.

--
*If tennis elbow is painful, imagine suffering with tennis balls *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Rich spampamspam wrote:
The only reason that semis were built with their main living areas
together was to save a few pennies by only having one chimney stack!

And to make them warmer.

--
*Plagiarism saves time *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article , Rich wrote:
The only reason that semis were built with their main living
areas together was to save a few pennies by only having one
chimney stack!

In fairness to the builders, more than pennies. If you have hipped
roof semis gathering the flues in the loft into one ridge chimney is
a little more involved on the brickwork side, but hugely easier on
the roofing and flashing side. From an energy conservation pov (not
that this was considered then) traditional non HA semis have the main
rooms with only one external wall and much of the heat that goes up
the chimney (in the days of coal fires as when most of these houses
were built) will find its way back into your own house or next door
and vice versa. With the HA layout the back of the flue is external
brickwork and a heat sink.

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk
Free SEDBUK boiler database browser http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm
[Latest version QSEDBUK 1.10 released 4 April 2005]

"Tony Bryer" wrote in message
...
In article , Rich wrote:
The only reason that semis were built with their main living
areas together was to save a few pennies by only having one
chimney stack!

In fairness to the builders, more than pennies. If you have hipped
roof semis gathering the flues in the loft into one ridge chimney is
a little more involved on the brickwork side, but hugely easier on
the roofing and flashing side. From an energy conservation pov (not
that this was considered then) traditional non HA semis have the main
rooms with only one external wall and much of the heat that goes up
the chimney (in the days of coal fires as when most of these houses
were built) will find its way back into your own house or next door
and vice versa. With the HA layout the back of the flue is external
brickwork and a heat sink.

I'm glad you said that, saved me from doing it!

It makes every sense to have that configuration.

Mary

"Owain" wrote in message
...
Mary Fisher wrote:
Avoid semis/terraced properties. When you've lived in a detached, even
when the gap is only a metre or so, you'll never go back (until you're
gaga)
As long as you can afford the heating without someone else's insulation.

My neighbour and I are agreed that our flats are significantly colder when
the flat downstairs is unoccupied. We benefit from their heat.

Of course you do. But the lower neighbours would also benefit from your
insulation.

Mary

Owain

wrote in message
ups.com...
But it never annoyed me - as I said there's more noise from outside

I think it's mainly at night, when all is quiet. You have to be
conscious of the
neighbours if they've gone to bed etc. You dont feel as "free" as in a
detached
house. Unless you couldn't care less, in which case they may do the
same back !

You seem to have a problem with humanity!

I dislike the noise of traffic when I'm outside far more than anything I can
hear inside. There's nothing anyone can do about that, people seem to LIKE
making loud noises with their vehicles.

Mary
Simon.

Mary Fisher wrote:
My neighbour and I are agreed that our flats are significantly colder when
the flat downstairs is unoccupied. We benefit from their heat.
Of course you do. But the lower neighbours would also benefit from your
insulation.

Yes, but I get their heat and they get my floorboard squeaks. Fair
exchange is no robbery!

Now, if I could find their electric cables ... :-)

Owain

In message ,
Rich spampamspam wrote:

On Wed, 08 Jun 2005 22:18:59 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
OldBill wrote:
Avoid semis/terraced properties. When you've lived in a detached, even
when the gap is only a metre or so, you'll never go back (until you're
gaga)

Easy to say. But in many Victorian areas detached houses are either rare
or extremely expensive. And the alternative newer house - although
possibly better sound insulated - is likely to be very much smaller.

I would go further and say that it's not just victorian areas where
detached houses are rare or prohibitively expensive.


South Wales:

http://www.tridwr.demon.co.uk/abertour/aber20.html
http://www.tridwr.demon.co.uk/abertour/aber27.html

and in particular:
http://www.tridwr.demon.co.uk/aberto...ff/seng13.html

Yes, it's a long while since I updated the website, but the place hasn't
changed that much :-)

Probably counts as Victorian though as most of the development in this
particular area happened between 1890 and 1920.

Hwyl!

M.

--
Martin Angove: http://www.tridwr.demon.co.uk/
Two free issues: http://www.livtech.co.uk/ Living With Technology
.... If tennis elbow is painful, imagine suffering with tennis balls.

You seem to have a problem with humanity!
Haha. Oh dear. I don't think I'm that bad. But I think OldBill said it
all when
he said after you've had a detached, you'll want no other.
Christian/Mary, I liked your previous comments about the telephone
table. I may not fit
one since you made it sound so twee ! Or I will go the whole hog, and
put the
phone on a doily. I still have the swirly net curtains up that the
previous lady
owner left (going to fit vertical blinds). Somebody visiting me the
other day decided it
must be the wrong house, since such net curtains couldn't possibly be
mine.
Simon.

wrote:
Christian/Mary, I liked your previous comments about the telephone
table. I may not fit one since you made it sound so twee ! Or I
will go the whole hog, and put the phone on a doily.

Occasionally on Ebay you can get a gilt basketwork frame that fits over
a 746 dial phone to give that added touch of tweeness.

I still have the swirly net curtains up that the previous lady
owner left (going to fit vertical blinds). Somebody visiting
me the other day decided it must be the wrong house, since such
net curtains couldn't possibly be mine.

"It was there when I moved in and it does the job" is a perfectly manly
response to most questions of aesthetic vs function.

Owain

wrote in message
ups.com...
You seem to have a problem with humanity!
Haha. Oh dear. I don't think I'm that bad. But I think OldBill said it
all when
he said after you've had a detached, you'll want no other.
Christian/Mary, I liked your previous comments about the telephone
table. I may not fit
one since you made it sound so twee !

You'remaking assumptions.

Wrong ones.

Which says more about you than it does about me.

Or I will go the whole hog, and
put the
phone on a doily.

Whatever turns you on.

I still have the swirly net curtains up that the
previous lady
owner left (going to fit vertical blinds).

I bow to your greater experience, ! have no idea what you're describing. Of
course, that could say more about your powers of description than about my
understanding ...

Somebody visiting me the
other day decided it
must be the wrong house, since such net curtains couldn't possibly be
mine.

Nor mine.

Don't be so patronising and think you know about other people.

Mary

"Owain" wrote in message
. ..
wrote:
Christian/Mary, I liked your previous comments about the telephone
table. I may not fit one since you made it sound so twee ! Or I will go
the whole hog, and put the phone on a doily.

Occasionally on Ebay you can get a gilt basketwork frame that fits over a
746 dial phone to give that added touch of tweeness.

Wot's a 746 phone?

I still have the swirly net curtains up that the previous lady
owner left (going to fit vertical blinds). Somebody visiting me the other
day decided it must be the wrong house, since such
net curtains couldn't possibly be mine.

"It was there when I moved in and it does the job" is a perfectly manly
response to most questions of aesthetic vs function.

Yes, I imagine that the jamieson poster could well be so idle as to say that
after not bothering to change anything.

Mary
Owain