Lee wrote:
Steve Walker wrote:

Damned right. Within a few years you'll be swiping your ID to
visit a library, to draw money at the bank, to get on a bus. Private
companies will widely require them as part of a
transaction, and link their data into the statre systems.

This (Merkin) clip sums up my objection to ID cards:
http://www.adcritic.com/interactive/view.php?id=5927

fantastic - bookmarked!

BigWallop wrote:

If everyone of an innocent nature was carrying an ID card, then
you wouldn't be worried at all about being stopped in the street
by the police and asked to show your ID.

The Police can already ask a citizen to identify themselves. This new
system extends that power to any little Hitler or US corporation which wants
to participate. It means we all get the "1984 Clubcard", where our
movements and choices are surveilled and analysed by countless snoopers.

Terrorists and illegals will simply use forged papers, or take advantage of
the 3m rule for overseas visitors. The only people who'll be screwed by
this will be the law-abiding UK nationals.

Brian G wrote:
Grumps wrote:

The only people who might object to id cards are those who are
either illegal in this country or those who have something to
hide!!!! In one way or another we carry id cards now! either a
driving licence or credit/debit card so what's the objections?.,
Grumps


carrying driving licences and credit cards with you is NOT mandatory.
If you leave them at home and then stopped and asked for ID you are
NOT commiting an offence by not having them on your person.

Introduce a mandatory scheme, and then if you don't show the card
when asked by ANYONE who has been granted the necessary authority
(not just the local plod, but literally the butcher, the baker and
the candle-stick maker if they have been given the authority to do
so) , you can/will be arrested.

Big brother is coming - a little late, but he is coming!

Brian G

As I understand it, as I walk around my town surveillance cameras can
monitor my movements.

I do not have any store cards but my action within that store could be
followed using the security cameras.

Police have cameras which identify car number plates so my location and
travels can be monitored.

I have to wear a photo security badge at work.

Do I worry about being monitored? My only fear would be that I might be
liable for the eventual psychiatric medical expenses of the person doing
the monitoring.

In message , Grumps
writes
The only people who might object to id cards are those who are either
illegal in this country or those who have something to hide!!!!
In one way or another we carry id cards now! either a driving licence or
credit/debit card so what's the objections?.,
Grumps

Can you refrain from top posting please, and sort out your sig sep ?

So, you have a driving license ?

is that not sufficient ID for most purposes?

Have you thought of

a) the consequences of someone incorrectly entering your details

b) someone being able to access your details for malevolent purposes
(it's happened several times recently)

c) the fact that the project is likely to be an expensive flop

d) that ID cards spectacularly failed to stop terrorist attacks in e.g.
the US, Spain and Bali. Don't forgetthis was the reason for the urgency
of bringing them in

e) how are ID cards going to get rid of illegal immigrants who live
within a fairly closed ethnic community

f) how are ID cards going to reduce crime when the police don't even
respond to burglaries

g) several other things I haven't thought of

I'm not a criminal and AFAIK have nothing to hide, but I am liable to
find myself criminalised for performing no criminal act

Together with other recent pieces of legislation, we will end up wit a
significant proportion of people just living outside the law



"raden" wrote in message
...

For those who have switched off from VE day Warplanes ...

http://www.pledgebank.com/no2id


--
geoff



--
geoff

In message , Steve Walker
writes
Al Reynolds wrote:

Read the proposed legislation. It gives the government and other
authorities rights to access to every instance of the ID being
checked (it isn't just a visual check). As more and more
transactions will require your ID to be checked, they will
eventually know where you are most of the time, and what you do
with your time . As a rule I don't have any truck with civil liberties
nonsense, but this is a privacy issue more than a liberty issue. This
scheme goes *way* beyond a simple ID card (which is what
most people think it is).

Damned right. Within a few years you'll be swiping your ID to visit a
library, to draw money at the bank, to get on a bus. Private companies will
widely require them as part of a transaction, and link their data into the
statre systems.

The govt supercomputers will be able to map your movements, your friends and
your hobbies. Any govt agency, any social worker or tax inspector, any
friendly foreign govt or multi-national corporation, will be able to browse
your life like an episode of Big Brother, whether they're trying to catch
you or sell you soap powder.

This isn't crime prevention, the real crims & illegals will continue to
trade in cash or use false papers. It's the introduction of a subservient,
surveilled population of work-units, instead of a nation of free & sovereign
citizens.

I take it you're signing up then

--
geoff

In message , Mary
Fisher writes
It wouldn't bother me. You'd get bored out of you paranoid mind watching it.
Can you imagine the result of your fears? Half the population watching the
other half 24/7?

Who watches the watchers? Not Blunkett.

Ah, but you see, Blunkett is part of the 10+% for whom Iris scanning
won't work


--
geoff

In message , Toby Sleigh
writes

Who watches the watchers? Not Blunkett.

Mary


1 to 1 might be difficult, but East Germany got up to 1 to 6.5
http://enjoyment.independent.co.uk/b...p?story=532434
Published : 18 June 2004


"in the snooper's state of East Germany, the Stasi secret police employed
one informer for every 6.5 citizens. Its agents monitored every aspect of
.."

T'would make a significant dent in the unemployment figures

--
geoff

In message , BigWallop
writes

As most of us have mobile phones our location is already usually known to
800m or so and this will come down significantly with the future GPS equiped
phones.

Think I'll move to the Isle of Man.

We'll still find youuuuuuuuuu!!!! :-)

And now, there is a reciprocal agreement between IO Mann (note the 2nd
"M") so e.g. if you get done for speeding over there, it now counts over
here.

The net is tightening


--
geoff

In message , Peter Parry
writes

so what's the objections?.,

You don't mind being forced to carry an RFID card which can track
where you go even though it never comes out of your pocket? You
don't mind the police tracking you because you are going out with a
policemans daughter and the father doesn't think much of it? You
don't mind your local politician asking for an eye to be kept on you
because you criticised (or just failed to support) some pet project
of theirs? You don't mind a quite word being dropped to your
employer that "surveillance evidence" puts you in some pretty
disreputable places and maybe you shouldn't be working there any
more? (Never mind whether the evidence exists - the employer knows it
may - and if they are doing government work...?). If you are a
teacher you don't mind a policeman coming around (told you not to go
out with his daughter didn't I) and asking the headmaster why you
were tracked staying in Mothercare for 3 hours each Saturday and
sitting in a playground all Sunday? It won't affect you at all will
it, after all, what have you got to hide?


Nicely put Peter

--
geoff

In message ws.net,
":::Jerry::::" writes

"raden" wrote in message
...

For those who have switched off from VE day Warplanes ...

http://www.snipped

If people are serious about objecting to ID cards, rather than signing
up to a meaningless web page, may I suggest that you write directly to
the Home Office (stating valid and reasoned arguments as to why you
consider ID cards unworkable etc.) with a CC to your own MP.

The above approach can and *has* forced ministers to modify or rethink
policy / Bills before Parliament.

Well at least it got a decent discussion going

With the current administration, one has to ask whether listening Tony
actually gives a toss


--
geoff

In message , BigWallop
writes

"raden" wrote in message
...

For those who have switched off from VE day Warplanes ...

http://www.pledgebank.com/no2id


geoff


If everyone of an innocent nature was carrying an ID card, then you wouldn't be
worried at all about being stopped in the street by the police and
asked to show
your ID. I think you'd only fly off the handle and object if you knew you had
something to hide, or had just done something that is against the rules of
society, normally called the moral code.

Sorry, I think that's complete bollox

see Peter Parry's informative post


Who in their right minds would think that, in a population of millions of
people, that they, and they alone, would be picked out and scrutinised by the
big brother state? Answers on a post-card to: :-)

Not a problem, is it

until it's you, and someone's made a mistake


Only them with a paranoid disposition are going to think they're being watched
from on high. Time to bring out the aluminium foil hats folks.



--
geoff

"raden" wrote in message
...
In message , Peter Parry
writes

so what's the objections?.,

You don't mind being forced to carry an RFID card which can track
where you go even though it never comes out of your pocket? You
don't mind the police tracking you because you are going out with a
policemans daughter and the father doesn't think much of it? You
don't mind your local politician asking for an eye to be kept on you
because you criticised (or just failed to support) some pet project
of theirs? You don't mind a quite word being dropped to your
employer that "surveillance evidence" puts you in some pretty
disreputable places and maybe you shouldn't be working there any
more? (Never mind whether the evidence exists - the employer knows it
may - and if they are doing government work...?). If you are a
teacher you don't mind a policeman coming around (told you not to go
out with his daughter didn't I) and asking the headmaster why you
were tracked staying in Mothercare for 3 hours each Saturday and
sitting in a playground all Sunday? It won't affect you at all will
it, after all, what have you got to hide?


Nicely put Peter

Maxie, I think the likes of these on this ng should be tracked for their own
good.

_________________________________________
Usenet Zone Free Binaries Usenet Server
More than 120,000 groups
Unlimited download
http://www.usenetzone.com to open account

In message , Doctor Evil
writes

"raden" wrote in message
...
In message , Peter Parry
writes

so what's the objections?.,

You don't mind being forced to carry an RFID card which can track
where you go even though it never comes out of your pocket? You
don't mind the police tracking you because you are going out with a
policemans daughter and the father doesn't think much of it? You
don't mind your local politician asking for an eye to be kept on you
because you criticised (or just failed to support) some pet project
of theirs? You don't mind a quite word being dropped to your
employer that "surveillance evidence" puts you in some pretty
disreputable places and maybe you shouldn't be working there any
more? (Never mind whether the evidence exists - the employer knows it
may - and if they are doing government work...?). If you are a
teacher you don't mind a policeman coming around (told you not to go
out with his daughter didn't I) and asking the headmaster why you
were tracked staying in Mothercare for 3 hours each Saturday and
sitting in a playground all Sunday? It won't affect you at all will
it, after all, what have you got to hide?


Nicely put Peter

Maxie, I think the likes of these on this ng should be tracked for their own
good.

Do **** off dIMM

this is a bit over your head

It requires engagement of brain cells

--
geoff

"Brian G" wrote in message
...
BigWallop wrote:
"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
.. .
In article ,
raden writes:

For those who have switched off from VE day Warplanes ...

http://www.pledgebank.com/no2id

I read the pledge the first couple of times as
"I will refuse to register for an ID card but only if 3,000,000
people will sign up [for an ID card]."

Also, I think there might be a problem scaling the page to
3,000,000 signatories...

Andrew Gabriel


I'm all for Photo and Finger Print ID Cards. It should be made
mandatory to carried your ID at all times, and detention or a spot
fine imposed if you're found without one.

What happens if you forget your wallet? Or just feel like wandering around
the beach on a nice hot hot day in just your bathers (nowhere to slip your
ID into) , and a rather officious PC plod decides to ask for your ID and
won't allow you to go beck to where your clothes are? It will happen, and
according to your statement, you're going to spend a little time in a cell
and probably end up with a criminal record just for 'forgetting'.

Won't happen? Can't happen, you bet it will!


Stop taking these points to the extreme. Of course there will be times when
carrying a card are impossible, but don't keep saying "it will come to the point
that" all the time. As I did state, if you can't produce a valid card within a
certain time frame, like you have to for documents for a vehicle now, then you
have commited an offence. No cop is going to stop you from going and getting
your card from a few metres away, or going to the house up the road for it.
You're just being silly now.

Just think of the implications if someone is arrested after breaking
in to a house. If they don't have an ID card on them, then it is
automatically an arrestible offence, and if they can't produce a
qualified ID card within a certain time frame, then another offence
is added to the original crime. If they produce a forged ID, then
the offence is automatically doubled or tripled.

What are the chances of someone being detected? My wife and I were asleep
when the b*****ds did us over - nobody detected them or even caught 'em.


That happens, and is an extremely harrowing experience for the victims, but if
the thugs had been caught, and couldn't positively identify themselves, then
their sentence would have been automatically set to a whole lot longer time in a
jail. But this crime still hasn't been solved, and the culprits still haven't
been brought to justice, but it isn't the only crime that still sits unsolved.


What a different society we'd all see, I think.

Yes, an Orwellian society where it is possible that a little jumped-up prat
can sit at a computer terminal and wipe all your records clean - leaving you
out on a limb trying to prove who you are.


Bull****!!! In the extreme again. I also stated that picture and finger print
cards are the only sure way of complete identification. How is wiping records
of you going to stop your card from proving who you really are. Your picture
and finger print would be on it.

Won't happen? Can't happen, you bet it will!

Run out of cash when shopping and nip into the local bank and when you're
there, you find that you have 'forgotten' your ID card - sorry sir, I can't
give YOUR own cash, but hang on a minute whilst I call the police, because
even though I recognise you from your many visits here, those are the rules!

Won't happen? Can't happen, you bet it will!

Just wait for a few years after they have been made compulsory and see how
many British citizens are designated 'non-persons' because of errors and
deliberate tampering of their details.

Won't happen? Can't happen, you bet it will -- especially if you are a
committed anti-war or or other type of protestor - just read how they
recently tried to swing an ASBO on a lady who has been legally protesting
against an American base in this country. If they can try and abuse that
for their own ends, it will be even easier with an ID card - no judges to
fight against.

Paranoid about this? You bet I am as I know all-to-well how easy it is for
someone to sit at a computer terminal and deliberately delete details - and
once that is done, try proving who you are or that the details were even
there in the first place!

Brian G



Weird. It all sounds like paranoia to me, I'm afraid. Or you really have
something to hide.

"raden" wrote in message
news
In message , Grumps
writes
The only people who might object to id cards are those who are either
illegal in this country or those who have something to hide!!!!
In one way or another we carry id cards now! either a driving licence or
credit/debit card so what's the objections?.,
Grumps

Can you refrain from top posting please, and sort out your sig sep ?

So, you have a driving license ?

is that not sufficient ID for most purposes?

Have you thought of

a) the consequences of someone incorrectly entering your details

b) someone being able to access your details for malevolent purposes
(it's happened several times recently)

c) the fact that the project is likely to be an expensive flop

d) that ID cards spectacularly failed to stop terrorist attacks in e.g.
the US, Spain and Bali. Don't forgetthis was the reason for the urgency
of bringing them in

e) how are ID cards going to get rid of illegal immigrants who live
within a fairly closed ethnic community

f) how are ID cards going to reduce crime when the police don't even
respond to burglaries

g) several other things I haven't thought of

I'm not a criminal and AFAIK have nothing to hide, but I am liable to
find myself criminalised for performing no criminal act

Together with other recent pieces of legislation, we will end up wit a
significant proportion of people just living outside the law


Just like now you mean? So no change there then. :-)




"raden" wrote in message
...

For those who have switched off from VE day Warplanes ...

http://www.pledgebank.com/no2id


--
geoff



--
geoff

Grumps wrote:

The only people who might object to id cards are those who are either
illegal in this country or those who have something to hide!!!!

Or nothing to hide, but simply don't trust the people with access to the
information will not use it for wrongdoing.... by malice, or more
likely, incompetance.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"raden" wrote in message
...
In message ws.net,
":::Jerry::::" writes

"raden" wrote in message
...

For those who have switched off from VE day Warplanes ...

http://www.snipped

If people are serious about objecting to ID cards, rather than signing
up to a meaningless web page, may I suggest that you write directly to
the Home Office (stating valid and reasoned arguments as to why you
consider ID cards unworkable etc.) with a CC to your own MP.

The above approach can and *has* forced ministers to modify or rethink
policy / Bills before Parliament.

Well at least it got a decent discussion going

With the current administration, one has to ask whether listening Tony
actually gives a toss

geoff


He's an elected politician mate, so he doesn't, and never will, give a toss.
:-)

"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
. net...

"BigWallop" wrote in message
k...



If everyone of an innocent nature was carrying an ID card, then you
wouldn't be
worried at all about being stopped in the street by the police and asked
to show
your ID. I think you'd only fly off the handle and object if you knew you
had
something to hide, or had just done something that is against the rules of
society, normally called the moral code.

Who in their right minds would think that, in a population of millions of
people, that they, and they alone, would be picked out and scrutinised by
the
big brother state? Answers on a post-card to: :-)

Only them with a paranoid disposition are going to think they're being
watched
from on high. Time to bring out the aluminium foil hats folks.

That won't stop the sky from falling on their heads ...

Mary


But it will stop Sky from tracking them down. :-)

Mike wrote:

As most of us have mobile phones our location is already usually known to
800m or so and this will come down significantly with the future GPS equiped
phones.

Did you know by using low level primitives in the GSM protocol stack you
can command the phone to enable its mic and transmit audio without any
action taken by the owner...



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Brian G wrote:

Introduce a mandatory scheme, and then if you don't show the card when asked
by ANYONE who has been granted the necessary authority (not just the local
plod, but literally the butcher, the baker and the candle-stick maker if
they have been given the authority to do so) , you can/will be arrested.

In some respects you will not be able to leave the card at home - even
if you do...

Remember the real "card" here is a sodding great big database (with over
200 separate bits of information *so far* (or "just your name and
address" in polotico speak)) linked to your biometric data.

Unless you plan to leave your eyes/fingerprints etc at home you can
still be linked to any one of the matching database records (yes there
really ought to be only one, but then the same is true of NI numbers)


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

BigWallop wrote:

Bull****!!! In the extreme again. I also stated that picture and finger print
cards are the only sure way of complete identification. How is wiping records
of you going to stop your card from proving who you really are. Your picture
and finger print would be on it.

So if I make myself a card with picture and fingerprint then that proves
who I am does it?

What, does not link to the database? - "yeah sorry gov, been like that
for weeks - some pleb pushed a wrong button someplace".


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"Brian G" wrote in message
...
BigWallop wrote:
"raden" wrote in message
...

For those who have switched off from VE day Warplanes ...

http://www.pledgebank.com/no2id


geoff


If everyone of an innocent nature was carrying an ID card, then you
wouldn't be worried at all about being stopped in the street by the
police and asked to show your ID. I think you'd only fly off the
handle and object if you knew you had something to hide, or had just
done something that is against the rules of society, normally called
the moral code.

What about the freedom just to walk about without having to explain yourself
to all and sundry. Remember, it just won't be PC plod who will have the
power to stop you.

With you moral code, what is 'moral' to you is 'immoral' to someone else,
even though what you are doing is perfectly legal!


Moral code is allowing others the freedom to live their lives, as well as you
living yours. No one wants to be frightened just walking to the shops, and
thugs who interfere with that action and bring about that fear are breaking the
moral code.

I'm not talking about people walking around doing their own thing, where is that
illegal? I'm talking about the people who are only there to make your life a
misery. That's illegal, and breaks moral code.

Who in their right minds would think that, in a population of
millions of people, that they, and they alone, would be picked out
and scrutinised by the big brother state? Answers on a post-card to:
:-)

Ask that question to those people who have been stopped and searched under
the 'Suss law' - even though they have been going about their lawful
business. You, like me are old enough to remember that one, with people
being stopped just because they had long hair - I last saw that law being
used a few years ago when driving through a major city and four plods had
just stopped a young lad for no apparent reason in the 'club-land' area and
were searching him.


And did the lad have any outstanding behavoural problems? Was he known to carry
or supply drugs, weapons or things? Yes, I remember well the SUSS laws, and I
still thought they were a good thing. Even after being stopped and asked who
and what I was on numerous occasions. But an ID card would have help in those
situations. Showing a valid card would have allowed the police to ID me in a
couple of minutes, rather than having to check for my identity over half the
country before letting me go with a "sorry sir" ringing in my ears.


Only them with a paranoid disposition are going to think they're
being watched from on high. Time to bring out the aluminium foil
hats folks.

They will watch and you don't need to be of a paranoid disposition to work
that out. BW, you are being 'watched' now. Just jump into your mode of
transport and drive on any major road and you will be photographed at some
stage and your vehicle number checked - could be a bit awkward if you were
'playin away' in the wrong area of town and there was a purge on.

Brian G



All I'm hearing here is extreme cases of "what ifs", when all that will really
happen is a card will drop through the doors of the people who register for
them. If you're on the list, then you'll get in. If you're not, then you'll
get hassled.

Playing away, as you put it, with a hooker was only made criminal by the health
and safety laws. It was known that men and women who partook in the pleasures,
were nearly a thousand times more likely to catch sexually transmitted diseases
than those who stayed at home, so to speak. So solicitation was made an
offence, and so to was the act of persuasion (kerb crawling) to a lady of the
night. But these laws were only passed because of the increased health risks to
the general population. Or, put another way, another offence against moral
codes.

If the majority of people lived by allowing others to live, then all these
"silly" and "extreme" laws would be put out to pasture. But, as long as people
out there are only out there to make other peoples lives a misery, then these
"silly" and "extreme" laws will need to be upheld.

All this is actually being used now in certain places, so why not extend it to
encompass all of us. Maybe then it will be put to good use.

"raden" wrote in message
...
In message
ws.net,
":::Jerry::::" writes

So you would NEED to carry your ID card, just like most people
remember that they need to take their house keys when they go out,
if
they are going to get back un that is.

Not that I can see ID cards solving anything....

I presume you left out a "'t" there


No, I don't think so (care to point out were you think it's missing),
but there is a typo 'u' should have been an 'i'.

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
snip

So if I make myself a card with picture and fingerprint then that
proves
who I am does it?


No, it makes you a common criminal...

"raden" wrote in message
...
In message , Mary Fisher
writes

"BigWallop" wrote in message
news:4r6je.35564


I'm all for Photo and Finger Print ID Cards. It should be made
mandatory
to
carried your ID at all times, and detention or a spot fine imposed if
you're
found without one.

I admit that I can't see any problem with having them.

And you'd be quite happy to pay £80 (which will probably be significantly
more) for it, or did you forget that bit ?

I object to paying for something which is imposed and about which, unlike
say road fund tax, there is no choice.

That isn't a problem with HAVING an ID card though.

Mary


--
geoff

"Brian G" wrote in message
...


Brian G

Why don't you use your name? Are you trying to hide something?

In article , Grumps
m wrote:


so what's the objections?.,

See he http://www.allmyfaqs.com/faq.pl?How_to_post


--
AJL Electronics (G6FGO) Ltd : Satellite and TV aerial systems
http://www.classicmicrocars.co.uk : http://www.ajlelectronics.co.uk

"Lee" wrote in message
...
Steve Walker wrote:

Damned right. Within a few years you'll be swiping your ID to visit a
library, to draw money at the bank, to get on a bus. Private companies
will widely require them as part of a transaction, and link their data
into the statre systems.

This (Merkin) clip sums up my objection to ID cards:
http://www.adcritic.com/interactive/view.php?id=5927

I haven't looked at that but Americans have to have ID. So do very many
countries' citizens. You've probably visited some of them ... do you know
why they are?

Mary

Lee
--
Email address is valid, but is unlikely to be read.

"Steve Walker" wrote in message
...
BigWallop wrote:

If everyone of an innocent nature was carrying an ID card, then
you wouldn't be worried at all about being stopped in the street
by the police and asked to show your ID.

The Police can already ask a citizen to identify themselves. This
new
system extends that power to any little Hitler or US corporation
which wants
to participate. It means we all get the "1984 Clubcard", where our
movements and choices are surveilled and analysed by countless
snoopers.

Terrorists and illegals will simply use forged papers, or take
advantage of
the 3m rule for overseas visitors. The only people who'll be
screwed by
this will be the law-abiding UK nationals.


No, the only people who will get screwed will be the people who look
like law-abiding UK nationals but are really common criminals with
something to hide - So what if 'Big Brother' knows that you were in
area 'Z' on the 8th July 2007 at 22:33 having driven through areas 'X'
and 'Y', you bought a Kit-kat along with the petrol you put in your
vehicle in area 'X', to get there if you haven't done anything
wrong?...

Stop your bleating, before people start to think that you have
something to hide....

In other words, stop the extremist scare stories, Blair and Co. are
saying that the country needs ID cards due to terrorism etc., we all
know that ID cards will not stop such activities (for obvious
reasons), blow the given reasons out of the water and their whys and
wherefores collapse IYSWIM.

"Peter Parry" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 19 May 2005 21:38:29 +0100, "Grumps"
wrote:

The only people who might object to id cards are those who are
either
illegal in this country or those who have something to hide!!!!

I am neither, but I have some experience of what politicians and
police in this country have done to check people who have neither
committed nor are suspected of having committed any crime. I
therefore object most strongly to this authoritarian claptrap.

In one way or another we carry id cards now!

You might, I don't. I did for many years, to ensure that no one
else
had to.

so what's the objections?.,

You don't mind being forced to carry an RFID card which can track
where you go even though it never comes out of your pocket? You
don't mind the police tracking you because you are going out with a
policemans daughter and the father doesn't think much of it? You
don't mind your local politician asking for an eye to be kept on you
because you criticised (or just failed to support) some pet project
of theirs? You don't mind a quite word being dropped to your
employer that "surveillance evidence" puts you in some pretty
disreputable places and maybe you shouldn't be working there any
more? (Never mind whether the evidence exists - the employer knows
it
may - and if they are doing government work...?). If you are a
teacher you don't mind a policeman coming around (told you not to go
out with his daughter didn't I) and asking the headmaster why you
were tracked staying in Mothercare for 3 hours each Saturday and
sitting in a playground all Sunday? It won't affect you at all will
it, after all, what have you got to hide?


So that is what can happen now, so how would ID cards change anything
?....

Fails / fake evidence can and has been used for years against those
being targeted for what ever reason - it doesn't need ID cards, indeed
ID cards and the ability to show what your movement were could help
disprove fails / fake evidence (just like credit cards can now).

In article , Brian G
wrote:

BTW, if you have a mobile phone, you can be tracked by GPS to within a few
metres - even with it turned off.

Well there's a novelty. Care to expand on that statement?

--
AJL Electronics (G6FGO) Ltd : Satellite and TV aerial systems
http://www.classicmicrocars.co.uk : http://www.ajlelectronics.co.uk

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
Grumps wrote:

The only people who might object to id cards are those who are
either
illegal in this country or those who have something to hide!!!!

Or nothing to hide, but simply don't trust the people with access to
the
information will not use it for wrongdoing.... by malice, or more
likely, incompetance.


Just like now you mean....

On Thu, 19 May 2005 22:36:53 +0100, Mary Fisher wrote:

Not that I can see ID cards solving anything....

Perhaps not but I can't see them doing any harm either. It's worth a try.


It's a pretty expensive thing to just try and see if it does anything!
Can't you think of anything else that you'd rather see 3 billion ukp spent
on? That's only the estimated cost as well - if this is anything like
every other major IT scheme commissioned, the actual cost will be many
times that.

Kieran

"raden" wrote in message
...
In message , Doctor Evil
writes

"raden" wrote in message
...
In message , Peter Parry
writes

so what's the objections?.,

You don't mind being forced to carry an RFID card which can track
where you go even though it never comes out of your pocket? You
don't mind the police tracking you because you are going out with a
policemans daughter and the father doesn't think much of it? You
don't mind your local politician asking for an eye to be kept on you
because you criticised (or just failed to support) some pet project
of theirs? You don't mind a quite word being dropped to your
employer that "surveillance evidence" puts you in some pretty
disreputable places and maybe you shouldn't be working there any
more? (Never mind whether the evidence exists - the employer knows it
may - and if they are doing government work...?). If you are a
teacher you don't mind a policeman coming around (told you not to go
out with his daughter didn't I) and asking the headmaster why you
were tracked staying in Mothercare for 3 hours each Saturday and
sitting in a playground all Sunday? It won't affect you at all will
it, after all, what have you got to hide?


Nicely put Peter

Maxie, I think the likes of these on this ng should be tracked for their
own
good.

Do **** off dIMM

Maxie, I can't believe you are so offensive to dIMM. I hope Dim Lin, the
Oriental enchantress doesn't hear you. My, oh, my!

_________________________________________
Usenet Zone Free Binaries Usenet Server
More than 120,000 groups
Unlimited download
http://www.usenetzone.com to open account

"Brian G" wrote in message
...
BTW, if you have a mobile phone, you can be tracked by GPS to within a few
metres - even with it turned off.

Incorrect.
We can track a mobile, but not that accurately ... and it has to be switched
on.

On Fri, 20 May 2005 01:03:58 GMT, "BigWallop"
wrote:


"Brian G" wrote in message
...
BigWallop wrote:
"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
.. .
In article ,
raden writes:

For those who have switched off from VE day Warplanes ...

http://www.pledgebank.com/no2id

I read the pledge the first couple of times as
"I will refuse to register for an ID card but only if 3,000,000
people will sign up [for an ID card]."

Also, I think there might be a problem scaling the page to
3,000,000 signatories...

Andrew Gabriel


I'm all for Photo and Finger Print ID Cards. It should be made
mandatory to carried your ID at all times, and detention or a spot
fine imposed if you're found without one.

What happens if you forget your wallet? Or just feel like wandering around
the beach on a nice hot hot day in just your bathers (nowhere to slip your
ID into) , and a rather officious PC plod decides to ask for your ID and
won't allow you to go beck to where your clothes are? It will happen, and
according to your statement, you're going to spend a little time in a cell
and probably end up with a criminal record just for 'forgetting'.

Won't happen? Can't happen, you bet it will!


Stop taking these points to the extreme. Of course there will be times when
carrying a card are impossible, but don't keep saying "it will come to the point
that" all the time. As I did state, if you can't produce a valid card within a
certain time frame, like you have to for documents for a vehicle now, then you
have commited an offence. No cop is going to stop you from going and getting
your card from a few metres away, or going to the house up the road for it.
You're just being silly now.

Just think of the implications if someone is arrested after breaking
in to a house. If they don't have an ID card on them, then it is
automatically an arrestible offence, and if they can't produce a
qualified ID card within a certain time frame, then another offence
is added to the original crime. If they produce a forged ID, then
the offence is automatically doubled or tripled.

What are the chances of someone being detected? My wife and I were asleep
when the b*****ds did us over - nobody detected them or even caught 'em.


That happens, and is an extremely harrowing experience for the victims, but if
the thugs had been caught, and couldn't positively identify themselves, then
their sentence would have been automatically set to a whole lot longer time in a
jail. But this crime still hasn't been solved, and the culprits still haven't
been brought to justice, but it isn't the only crime that still sits unsolved.


What a different society we'd all see, I think.

Yes, an Orwellian society where it is possible that a little jumped-up prat
can sit at a computer terminal and wipe all your records clean - leaving you
out on a limb trying to prove who you are.


Bull****!!! In the extreme again. I also stated that picture and finger print
cards are the only sure way of complete identification. How is wiping records
of you going to stop your card from proving who you really are. Your picture
and finger print would be on it.

Won't happen? Can't happen, you bet it will!

Run out of cash when shopping and nip into the local bank and when you're
there, you find that you have 'forgotten' your ID card - sorry sir, I can't
give YOUR own cash, but hang on a minute whilst I call the police, because
even though I recognise you from your many visits here, those are the rules!

Won't happen? Can't happen, you bet it will!

Just wait for a few years after they have been made compulsory and see how
many British citizens are designated 'non-persons' because of errors and
deliberate tampering of their details.

Won't happen? Can't happen, you bet it will -- especially if you are a
committed anti-war or or other type of protestor - just read how they
recently tried to swing an ASBO on a lady who has been legally protesting
against an American base in this country. If they can try and abuse that
for their own ends, it will be even easier with an ID card - no judges to
fight against.

Paranoid about this? You bet I am as I know all-to-well how easy it is for
someone to sit at a computer terminal and deliberately delete details - and
once that is done, try proving who you are or that the details were even
there in the first place!

Brian G



Weird. It all sounds like paranoia to me, I'm afraid. Or you really have
something to hide.

The best argument I have heard since this whole ID card farrago
started was given by the journalist Matthew Parris in an Any Questions
programme a couple of weeks ago. Here is the exchange between Dimbleby
and Parris. You can find the audio clip as well at the BBC Listen
Again web site. He spoke with passion and moved the audience to pretty
much overwhelming rejection of the ID card. Read all of it and ponder
why we are English, Scottish, or Welsh and what we will have left
after Blair and his Neo Labour party start charging us to exist in our
own country:

DIMBLEBY[CLAPPING] Matthew Parris.

PARRISI can find no rational arguments against identity cards and I
come down to this - I hate it, I hate it, I absolutely hate the idea
of having to carry around myself with myself something that identified
me on demand to a policeman or to anybody else, it just grates with
me, it just goes completely against the grain. To me it's somehow
antipathetical almost to being an Englishman, I just can't stand the
idea of ID cards. And I think that this bill, if it's brought in, it
will be like the casinos bill, it'll be very similar, it'll start out
with widespread but rather shallow acquiescence from most people and
once the details become clear opposition will harden and harden and
harden to it and it will be discovered that those that were in favour
of it weren't as in favour of it as those who are against it are
against it and the government will run into all kinds of difficulty
with it. I think they will drop it, I hope they will.

DIMBLEBYYou speak with passion about it, how do you distinguish in
your mind between the horror of the ID card and inevitability if you
drive of a driving licence or if you use the health service of a
national insurance card?

PARRISIf you want something, if you want a service, if you're asking
somebody or some agency of the state to give you something I can
understand why they may ask you to show some sort of identification in
return. But I don't see why to walk out in the street and to stand in
the sunshine and to breathe in my own country I should present anybody
with any kind of identification.

DIMBLEBYAnd if you could be persuaded - if you could be persuaded that
in that balance between freedom and security a foolproof ID card would
in the long term help protect you from a terrorist would that alter
your opinion or would the desire for the liberty be too potent?

PARRISI am so far from being persuaded either that the terrorist
threat in that form exists or that ID cards in the form in which the
government is proposing them would be proof against the terrorist
threat that I don't think I even need to weigh it in the balance.

[This transcript is on the BBC web site.]

MM

On Fri, 20 May 2005 09:15:33 +0100, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:


"Brian G" wrote in message
...


Brian G

Why don't you use your name? Are you trying to hide something?

Anyone who uses his own name in these newsgroups is asking for
trouble. There are a bunch of nutters out there, and you can never be
sure that your personal safety is guaranteed any more. That's why more
and more people go ex-directory and hide everything they possibly can.
This is a nation of snoopers. We are the most watched society in the
Western world. People are willing, keen even, since we love a nice
dollop of Schadenfreude whenever we can get it, to denounce their
distant neighbours if their face doesn't fit. The situation is already
dire. I would grab myself a new moniker as quickly as poss, if I were
you. After all, why does it matter *who* you are? It's what we say
that counts.

MM

On Thu, 19 May 2005 21:38:29 +0100, "Grumps"
wrote:

The only people who might object to id cards are those who are either
illegal in this country or those who have something to hide!!!!
In one way or another we carry id cards now! either a driving licence or
credit/debit card so what's the objections?.,

Are you aware of the following?

1. The ID card will cost perhaps as much as £85 and when it's
compulsory, that is effectively a stealth tax just for existing.

2. The ID card will have sophisticated technology which means that you
can be tracked silently wherever you go by any government body,
council official, or nominated private company. You won't need to
proffer the card. Just being in the vicinity of a scanner will be all
it takes to capture your personal details.

3. Everyone will become a suspect. No longer innocent until proven
guilty, we will all become guilty of 'something' and it will only be a
matter of time until cross-referencing by government civil servants
finds it out.

4. There will great emphasis on "checking up" because "jobsworth"
officials will have the means, and therefore they will invent a need.
Ethnic minorities will be particularly vulnerable.

5. There will big fines or even imprisonment for those who don't
comply with the card's demands:

- A fine for not reporting lost, stolen, damaged or defective cards
- A fine for not renewing a card
- A fine for not submitting to fingerprinting
- A fine for not providing information demanded by the government
- A fine for not attending an interview at a specified place and time
- A fine for not reporting any change in personal circumstances
(including change of address)
- A fine for not attending an appointment for a scan of your
fingerprints and iris.

6. Up to fifty categories of your personal details will be stored on
the government database and these details made available to many
organisations without your knowledge.

These are only a few of the many reasons why ID cards are such a bad
idea. To them you could add the enormous cost, which stands now at
around £6bn but is likely to rise astronomically, and the fact that
the government's record on delivering functioning IT projects has been
abysmally poor, mired in incompetence, and subject to enormous wastage
of taxpayers' money which has mostly been poured into the coffers of
foreign private companies.

I think the British public is entitled to be clued up first about the
real impact the card will have before they are asked whether they
support it or not. Of course, if you tell someone that this magical
juju will protect their wife and kiddies from the terrible monsters
that lurk over the mountain, of course many are going to want one. But
you might as well pull the wool right down over their eyes and
hoodwink them properly.

MM

On Thu, 19 May 2005 22:31:34 GMT, Lee
wrote:

Steve Walker wrote:

Damned right. Within a few years you'll be swiping your ID to visit a
library, to draw money at the bank, to get on a bus. Private companies will
widely require them as part of a transaction, and link their data into the
statre systems.

This (Merkin) clip sums up my objection to ID cards:
http://www.adcritic.com/interactive/view.php?id=5927

How big is this clip? I've been waiting for at least 2 minutes! I only
have dial-up (no BB out here in the sticks!)

MM

"Kieran Mansley" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 19 May 2005 22:36:53 +0100, Mary Fisher wrote:

Not that I can see ID cards solving anything....

Perhaps not but I can't see them doing any harm either. It's worth a try.


It's a pretty expensive thing to just try and see if it does anything!
Can't you think of anything else that you'd rather see 3 billion ukp spent
on?

There may be financial benefits. You don't know until it's tried.

Mary