On Fri, 20 May 2005 01:03:58 GMT, "BigWallop"
wrote:


"Brian G" wrote in message
...
BigWallop wrote:
"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
.. .
In article ,
raden writes:

For those who have switched off from VE day Warplanes ...

http://www.pledgebank.com/no2id

I read the pledge the first couple of times as
"I will refuse to register for an ID card but only if 3,000,000
people will sign up [for an ID card]."

Also, I think there might be a problem scaling the page to
3,000,000 signatories...

Andrew Gabriel


I'm all for Photo and Finger Print ID Cards. It should be made
mandatory to carried your ID at all times, and detention or a spot
fine imposed if you're found without one.

What happens if you forget your wallet? Or just feel like wandering around
the beach on a nice hot hot day in just your bathers (nowhere to slip your
ID into) , and a rather officious PC plod decides to ask for your ID and
won't allow you to go beck to where your clothes are? It will happen, and
according to your statement, you're going to spend a little time in a cell
and probably end up with a criminal record just for 'forgetting'.

Won't happen? Can't happen, you bet it will!


Stop taking these points to the extreme. Of course there will be times when
carrying a card are impossible, but don't keep saying "it will come to the point
that" all the time. As I did state, if you can't produce a valid card within a
certain time frame, like you have to for documents for a vehicle now, then you
have commited an offence. No cop is going to stop you from going and getting
your card from a few metres away, or going to the house up the road for it.
You're just being silly now.

Just think of the implications if someone is arrested after breaking
in to a house. If they don't have an ID card on them, then it is
automatically an arrestible offence, and if they can't produce a
qualified ID card within a certain time frame, then another offence
is added to the original crime. If they produce a forged ID, then
the offence is automatically doubled or tripled.

What are the chances of someone being detected? My wife and I were asleep
when the b*****ds did us over - nobody detected them or even caught 'em.


That happens, and is an extremely harrowing experience for the victims, but if
the thugs had been caught, and couldn't positively identify themselves, then
their sentence would have been automatically set to a whole lot longer time in a
jail. But this crime still hasn't been solved, and the culprits still haven't
been brought to justice, but it isn't the only crime that still sits unsolved.


What a different society we'd all see, I think.

Yes, an Orwellian society where it is possible that a little jumped-up prat
can sit at a computer terminal and wipe all your records clean - leaving you
out on a limb trying to prove who you are.


Bull****!!! In the extreme again. I also stated that picture and finger print
cards are the only sure way of complete identification. How is wiping records
of you going to stop your card from proving who you really are. Your picture
and finger print would be on it.

Won't happen? Can't happen, you bet it will!

Run out of cash when shopping and nip into the local bank and when you're
there, you find that you have 'forgotten' your ID card - sorry sir, I can't
give YOUR own cash, but hang on a minute whilst I call the police, because
even though I recognise you from your many visits here, those are the rules!

Won't happen? Can't happen, you bet it will!

Just wait for a few years after they have been made compulsory and see how
many British citizens are designated 'non-persons' because of errors and
deliberate tampering of their details.

Won't happen? Can't happen, you bet it will -- especially if you are a
committed anti-war or or other type of protestor - just read how they
recently tried to swing an ASBO on a lady who has been legally protesting
against an American base in this country. If they can try and abuse that
for their own ends, it will be even easier with an ID card - no judges to
fight against.

Paranoid about this? You bet I am as I know all-to-well how easy it is for
someone to sit at a computer terminal and deliberately delete details - and
once that is done, try proving who you are or that the details were even
there in the first place!

Brian G



Weird. It all sounds like paranoia to me, I'm afraid. Or you really have
something to hide.

The best argument I have heard since this whole ID card farrago
started was given by the journalist Matthew Parris in an Any Questions
programme a couple of weeks ago. Here is the exchange between Dimbleby
and Parris. You can find the audio clip as well at the BBC Listen
Again web site. He spoke with passion and moved the audience to pretty
much overwhelming rejection of the ID card. Read all of it and ponder
why we are English, Scottish, or Welsh and what we will have left
after Blair and his Neo Labour party start charging us to exist in our
own country:

DIMBLEBY[CLAPPING] Matthew Parris.

PARRISI can find no rational arguments against identity cards and I
come down to this - I hate it, I hate it, I absolutely hate the idea
of having to carry around myself with myself something that identified
me on demand to a policeman or to anybody else, it just grates with
me, it just goes completely against the grain. To me it's somehow
antipathetical almost to being an Englishman, I just can't stand the
idea of ID cards. And I think that this bill, if it's brought in, it
will be like the casinos bill, it'll be very similar, it'll start out
with widespread but rather shallow acquiescence from most people and
once the details become clear opposition will harden and harden and
harden to it and it will be discovered that those that were in favour
of it weren't as in favour of it as those who are against it are
against it and the government will run into all kinds of difficulty
with it. I think they will drop it, I hope they will.

DIMBLEBYYou speak with passion about it, how do you distinguish in
your mind between the horror of the ID card and inevitability if you
drive of a driving licence or if you use the health service of a
national insurance card?

PARRISIf you want something, if you want a service, if you're asking
somebody or some agency of the state to give you something I can
understand why they may ask you to show some sort of identification in
return. But I don't see why to walk out in the street and to stand in
the sunshine and to breathe in my own country I should present anybody
with any kind of identification.

DIMBLEBYAnd if you could be persuaded - if you could be persuaded that
in that balance between freedom and security a foolproof ID card would
in the long term help protect you from a terrorist would that alter
your opinion or would the desire for the liberty be too potent?

PARRISI am so far from being persuaded either that the terrorist
threat in that form exists or that ID cards in the form in which the
government is proposing them would be proof against the terrorist
threat that I don't think I even need to weigh it in the balance.

[This transcript is on the BBC web site.]

MM