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Electronics Repair (sci.electronics.repair) Discussion of repairing electronic equipment. Topics include requests for assistance, where to obtain servicing information and parts, techniques for diagnosis and repair, and annecdotes about success, failures and problems. |
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#1
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PSU Fan Direction
I replaced my computer's 90-watt Newton power supply with a 180-watt Fortron
power supply today. I have not added any other new components, so the total power consumed should not have changed. The new power supply unit (PSU) fits perfectly in every way except one: The air flow direction is reversed. The old fan's intake was on the back of the computer case. The fan exhaust was into the computer, across the heat sink and CPU, and out the back of the case. The old way arguably caused the case to be under a slight pressure. The new fan arguably puts the case under a slight vacuum. The heat sink prongs are hot but not so hot I can't safely (no burns) leave a finger on it. Should I just observe for awhile, playing it by ear? Or should I figure out a way to reverse the fan flow direction in the new power supply? All experience is welcome. I googled and am not finding anything definitive. Aside: After a lot of research on physical fit and electrical fit, brand names, and cost, I bought the new power supply from newegg.com. With shipping, altogether it cost $26. Ordered Tuesday night late, arrived Friday afternoon. |
#2
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PSU Fan Direction
Well, I am tiring to visualize the flow. But am having a hard time doing
it. But let me give you one rule of thumb. The cooler a CPU can run, the more efficient it will work. The same with the whole computer. The CPU should have a fan on it. This will keep the CPU cooled down. Now, it kinda sounds like the fan from the PSU also was the fan that cooled the CPU (on the old unit). Now the fan is no longer cooling the CPU. So, go to Radio Shack, or your local computer store, and get a CPU fan. It fits on the heat sink, and 2-4 screws will screw into, between the heat sink vents. If you are getting two fans running opposite of each other, (I.E.back forcing out, and the front fan forcing out, creating a void inside the case), you will need to reverse one of the two fans. You need to create a nice airflow through the case (I.E. Front to rear, or Rear to Front.) If you only have one fan, may I suggest another, to create a nice airflow... Hope this helps. Rick "Caroline" wrote in message k.net... I replaced my computer's 90-watt Newton power supply with a 180-watt Fortron power supply today. I have not added any other new components, so the total power consumed should not have changed. The new power supply unit (PSU) fits perfectly in every way except one: The air flow direction is reversed. The old fan's intake was on the back of the computer case. The fan exhaust was into the computer, across the heat sink and CPU, and out the back of the case. The old way arguably caused the case to be under a slight pressure. The new fan arguably puts the case under a slight vacuum. The heat sink prongs are hot but not so hot I can't safely (no burns) leave a finger on it. Should I just observe for awhile, playing it by ear? Or should I figure out a way to reverse the fan flow direction in the new power supply? All experience is welcome. I googled and am not finding anything definitive. Aside: After a lot of research on physical fit and electrical fit, brand names, and cost, I bought the new power supply from newegg.com. With shipping, altogether it cost $26. Ordered Tuesday night late, arrived Friday afternoon. |
#3
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PSU Fan Direction
Caroline wrote:
Or should I figure out a way to reverse the fan flow direction in the new power supply? To reverse the airstream, you have to turn the fans, by opening the psu, and turning it around. The standard now is front intake with or without fans, and only psu exhaust fan, or another additional exhaust fan. I'm having 2 papst 80mm fans in front, running on 6 v, and the psu sucking out. That is however to little... |
#4
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PSU Fan Direction
Thanks, Ricky and Vidar.
Per your suggestions to increase the air flow, right now I am investigating a fan for the heat sink. I experimented a little more yesterday with the old power supply. To the touch, it didn't seem as though the old fan cooled the heat sink or CPU any better than the new one. I guess it's entirely possible the new fan's air circulation flow over the CPU and heat sink is greater than the old one's, since the new power supply is double the rating of the old one (180 Watts vs. 90 Watts). So maybe I shouldn't worry about the new air flow direction. But I am thinking I might get a little better performance overall if I throw in a heat sink fan, like you said, Ricky. Seems like a fair gamble for under $20. Performance seems better. For example, it seems I can dump more tasks on the computer at the same time. (This sometimes froze things up.) I am still getting some spontaneous Internet disconnects but am now suspecting the phone lines and weather variations in my area. Plus, the new power supply is quieter in steady state operation. "Ricky Eck" wrote Well, I am tiring to visualize the flow. But am having a hard time doing it. But let me give you one rule of thumb. The cooler a CPU can run, the more efficient it will work. The same with the whole computer. The CPU should have a fan on it. This will keep the CPU cooled down. Now, it kinda sounds like the fan from the PSU also was the fan that cooled the CPU (on the old unit). Now the fan is no longer cooling the CPU. So, go to Radio Shack, or your local computer store, and get a CPU fan. It fits on the heat sink, and 2-4 screws will screw into, between the heat sink vents. If you are getting two fans running opposite of each other, (I.E.back forcing out, and the front fan forcing out, creating a void inside the case), you will need to reverse one of the two fans. You need to create a nice airflow through the case (I.E. Front to rear, or Rear to Front.) If you only have one fan, may I suggest another, to create a nice airflow... Hope this helps. Rick |
#5
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PSU Fan Direction
Performance seems better. For example, it seems I can dump more tasks on
the computer at the same time. (This sometimes froze things up.) I am still getting some spontaneous Internet disconnects but am now suspecting the phone lines and weather variations in my area. Plus, the new power supply is quieter in steady state operation. Well, that "Could" increase performance. I would say that putting a power supply two times the amount then you had was the true increase of performance. However, the freezing up problem can be caused by MANY things. From slow processor, lack of Memory, slow video, ect. Sure, the processor heating up, could cause it to run slow. But to be honest with you, many of the lock ups are caused by software problems. Defragging the computer greatly reduces "Lock-Up's" Eliminating Temp Files will frees up space, and reducing the amount of programs running in the background (i.e. Real Player, Messenger programs, ect), will free up resources. Eliminate any programs from the start menu that you don't use. Not to mention any programs that isn't in the start menu, that still start upon boot. Just because it tells you to start at boot, don't mean you have to. It just will take longer to start that program, but will save resources for programs that you do use more often. Refrain from buying programs like "FreeMem" or "MemMaker". They fake Memory, and take up more resources in the processor, not to mention reduce hard drive space. If you want to increase Memory, then do it the old fashion way, buy a bigger memory chip(s) Furthermore, the cooler you can get that Processor, the better it will run. Also, if you smoke, or have an unusually dust place, make sure you blow your computer out with some caned air, or a compressor, regularly. Dust and smoke can be a number one enemy on a computer, causing it to run hot, and reducing the life of it greatly. I had one computer that had one fan in it, and it was in the Power supply. Not to mention this was a large tower. So I placed two more fans inside it. The power supply was blowing from the inside out. So I put one fan in the front blowing from the outside in. And a fan above the power supply blowing from the inside out. The effect, the flow went from the front of the case, out the rear. I also had the heat sink fan, blowing down on the Processor, causing the heat to blow off the processor down to the Main board, reflecting off the Main board, and up into the air flow, going to the back of the case. Hope that helps, Rick |
#6
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PSU Fan Direction
I am still getting some spontaneous Internet disconnects but am now suspecting the phone lines and weather variations in my area. I forgot to answer this. I wouldn't suspect anything to so with the computer it's self. See the way how a modem works (I am going to use basic language here), is a complex language that can be described as different tones of noise. But there is a method to it's madness. What sounds like static and noise to us, is really a complex language between the two modems. If there is any type of interruption between this communication, it could cause your internet connection to be lost. One big thing, especially on the older modems, is call waiting. That "Beep" will interrupt the communication between the two modems. The newer modems comes with a program (sometimes built into the modem it's self), that can tell the "Beep" of call waiting. However, the older ones can not tell the difference, therefore gets confused, and disconnects. Other problems, can be cause by poor wiring in the phone lines. If you hear static on your line when you talk to someone, the modem will also. This will cause the modem to get confused, and hang up. Make sure you have "Error Correction" enabled on the modem. This will, sometimes, correct the problem. There is also two different modems on the market. There is the "SoftModem" a.k.a. "WinModem" That is software drive. This is a modem that you install all it's software on the Hard Drive. These can be slow, and unreliable. Mainly because it has to take time to read the programming off the hard drive. Basically, by the time the modem reads the info off the Hard Drive, it gives up and hangs up (Especially if you have a slow Hard Drive.) Then there is a Hard Modem. They are the most reliable. These modems have the software programmed in on the chip of the Modem it's self. Therefore reducing the amount of time it takes to read the programming. The only downfall of these, is software upgrades. Ever since I used a Hard Modem, I never went back to a WinModem. Hard modems are more expensive then a WinModem. But well worth it. However, before you start to replace all this hardware, check in with the phone lines and company, to see if you have any static or old wiring in your home. Or even it the "Trunk" to your home is old. 99.9% of connection problems are bad/old wiring in homes, and just need to be replace. One Apartment I had, when I used Dial-up, would be filled with static when it rained. The water would get into the phone lines, and would make the phone terrible for about 3 days. Hope this helps, Rick |
#7
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PSU Fan Direction
There is also two different modems on the market. There is the "SoftModem"
a.k.a. "WinModem" That is software drive. This is a modem that you install all it's software on the Hard Drive. These can be slow, and unreliable. Not necessarily. The reliability of soft modems have greatly improved because of the amount of power that most computers have today. The resources that softmodems would use when they are operating would be negligible if it's used in a machine with a clock in excess of 2 GHz with over 512 MB of RAM. In this case, the only limiting factor would be the quality of the software used to control the modem. Unfortunately, this is where most softmodems will fall short. Most cheap brands of softmodems have sloppily written drivers which will affect how well the modem can communicate and maintain a connection. Then there is a Hard Modem. They are the most reliable. These modems have the software programmed in on the chip of the Modem it's self. In some cases, yes. In other cases, no. Again, it depends on the quality of the controlling software that is written. In the case of a hardware modem, where all modem control processing is handled by the modem and not by the host CPU, the software instructions in the modem's ROM chip or firmware can still be sloppily written. Another factor would be the quality of the chipset. I forgot to answer this. I wouldn't suspect anything to so with the computer it's self. See the way how a modem works (I am going to use basic language here), is a complex language that can be described as different tones of noise. What a modem essentially does is MOdulate the information to be sent into a simple analogue carrier that can be transmitted through the phone lines. The computer that receives this signal DEModulates it from an analogue carrier back into usable computer information. It modulates the information to be sent into a simpler form and then demodulates information it receives back into something that can be processed, hence the name (MOdulator DEModulator or MODEM for short). One big thing, especially on the older modems, is call waiting. That "Beep" will interrupt the communication between the two modems. The newer modems comes with a program (sometimes built into the modem it's self), If you have call waiting, you can disable it by dialing a turn-off code, usually *70, at the dial tone prior to dialing out. This is what the modem is commanded to do if you configure your ISP software to disable call waiting. Any modem can do this, new or old, as any modem can be told to dial *70 or whatever the turn-off code is for your area. In my area, if the turn-off code is successfully received by the switcher at the phone company, the dial tone will pulse for a couple of seconds to indicate that call waiting is disabled. If you hear static on your line when you talk to someone, the modem will also. This will cause the modem to get confused, and hang up. It's not "confusion," per se. Rather, it's noise that interferes with the carrier. Sometimes, the modem communication can be recovered. Sometimes, it can't and you have to reconnect. Make sure you have "Error Correction" enabled on the modem. This will, sometimes, correct the problem. Error correction is more meant to correct errors that can occur as the information is transmitted through the interim. - Reinhart |
#8
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PSU Fan Direction
Man, I can defiantly tell that you are "New" school. If you noticed at the
beginning of the post I said "I am going to basic language here" meaning that I was not going to try to confuse the original poster. When I said the modem gets confused, id didn't want to go into all this description, that the poster may not understand. You have to remember, that may of the computer users over the age of 40, and some below, don't understand the terminology of computers, they just want to fix a problem. Now, with the *70, many phone companies are starting to charge to use the *70. You pay a monthly fee to have the option to use the *70 function. However, the newer modems have a call waiting Function that will alert you when a call comes in. But no matter if you are "Old" school, or "New" school, everyone can agree that you modem will work only as good as you phone connection. I personally have never seen a 56K reach 56K Maybe someone out there has, but not me. Rick "LASERandDVDfan" wrote in message ... There is also two different modems on the market. There is the "SoftModem" a.k.a. "WinModem" That is software drive. This is a modem that you install all it's software on the Hard Drive. These can be slow, and unreliable. Not necessarily. The reliability of soft modems have greatly improved because of the amount of power that most computers have today. The resources that softmodems would use when they are operating would be negligible if it's used in a machine with a clock in excess of 2 GHz with over 512 MB of RAM. In this case, the only limiting factor would be the quality of the software used to control the modem. Unfortunately, this is where most softmodems will fall short. Most cheap brands of softmodems have sloppily written drivers which will affect how well the modem can communicate and maintain a connection. Then there is a Hard Modem. They are the most reliable. These modems have the software programmed in on the chip of the Modem it's self. In some cases, yes. In other cases, no. Again, it depends on the quality of the controlling software that is written. In the case of a hardware modem, where all modem control processing is handled by the modem and not by the host CPU, the software instructions in the modem's ROM chip or firmware can still be sloppily written. Another factor would be the quality of the chipset. I forgot to answer this. I wouldn't suspect anything to so with the computer it's self. See the way how a modem works (I am going to use basic language here), is a complex language that can be described as different tones of noise. What a modem essentially does is MOdulate the information to be sent into a simple analogue carrier that can be transmitted through the phone lines. The computer that receives this signal DEModulates it from an analogue carrier back into usable computer information. It modulates the information to be sent into a simpler form and then demodulates information it receives back into something that can be processed, hence the name (MOdulator DEModulator or MODEM for short). One big thing, especially on the older modems, is call waiting. That "Beep" will interrupt the communication between the two modems. The newer modems comes with a program (sometimes built into the modem it's self), If you have call waiting, you can disable it by dialing a turn-off code, usually *70, at the dial tone prior to dialing out. This is what the modem is commanded to do if you configure your ISP software to disable call waiting. Any modem can do this, new or old, as any modem can be told to dial *70 or whatever the turn-off code is for your area. In my area, if the turn-off code is successfully received by the switcher at the phone company, the dial tone will pulse for a couple of seconds to indicate that call waiting is disabled. If you hear static on your line when you talk to someone, the modem will also. This will cause the modem to get confused, and hang up. It's not "confusion," per se. Rather, it's noise that interferes with the carrier. Sometimes, the modem communication can be recovered. Sometimes, it can't and you have to reconnect. Make sure you have "Error Correction" enabled on the modem. This will, sometimes, correct the problem. Error correction is more meant to correct errors that can occur as the information is transmitted through the interim. - Reinhart |
#9
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PSU Fan Direction
"Ricky Eck" wrote
C wrote Performance seems better. For example, it seems I can dump more tasks on the computer at the same time. (This sometimes froze things up.) I am still getting some spontaneous Internet disconnects but am now suspecting the phone lines and weather variations in my area. snip Well, that "Could" increase performance. I would say that putting a power supply two times the amount then you had was the true increase of performance. However, the freezing up problem can be caused by MANY things. Yup. snip Furthermore, the cooler you can get that Processor, the better it will run. To use basic language: I assure you a definite upper limit to the CPU's speed exists, and once this limit is reached, cooling further will have no effect. |
#10
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PSU Fan Direction
Furthermore, the cooler you can get that Processor, the better it will
run. To use basic language: I assure you a definite upper limit to the CPU's speed exists, and once this limit is reached, cooling further will have no effect. Oh, Most defiantly. I mean a system can only go as far as it's limits (kinda like that old saying "It's always in the last place you look..~ |
#11
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PSU Fan Direction
"Ricky Eck" wrote
C wrote I am still getting some spontaneous Internet disconnects but am now suspecting the phone lines and weather variations in my area. I forgot to answer this. I wouldn't suspect anything to so with the computer it's self. See the way how a modem works (I am going to use basic language here), is a complex language that can be described as different tones of noise. But there is a method to it's madness. It's not madness. It's not complex. It is engineering, in which I have three bachelor's and higher degrees. ;-) What sounds like static and noise to us, is really a complex language between the two modems. If there is any type of interruption between this communication, it could cause your internet connection to be lost. Yup. snip obvious This Gateway 900c desktop as purchased in early September, 2001 has an integrated modem. For a month I had terrible problems trying to get it to connect to the internet. I spent dozens of hours working with Gateway and America Online (my ISP then) to figure out why. They kept blaming each other for the problem, of course. Finally a Gateway tech and I narrowed it down to the strong possibility that the integrated modem was too sensitive to my older home's phone line noise. Gateway said, "Too bad your house can't make use of our superior modem." I said, "Not so fast. Your modem is not superior; my old computer's external modem works fine and is the superior one. I'm sending your computer back for a full refund, per the warranty." The tech turned me over to a manager who agreed to pay for an external modem. I kept the computer. I have used the external modem ever since. I did a modem noise check of my phone lines (in my new home) several months ago. It was somewhat high but then things settled down and I wasn't getting disconnected. Now the problem has returned. What I probably should do to troubleshoot further is graph disconnects per day vs. weather trends. Also, maybe I'll try the internal modem. Anyway, thanks for the suggestions. I have ideas where to go with this. And as I mentioned in the other thread here on power supplies, my computer is far from crippled. |
#12
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PSU Fan Direction
Man, I can defiantly tell that you are "New" school. If you noticed at the
beginning of the post I said "I am going to basic language here" meaning that I was not going to try to confuse the original poster. I know exactly what you intended, but the simplified explanation was simply wrong, if not outright confusing. All a modem does is take computer data and convert it into a simpler form so it can be sent through the phone lines to the modem at the other end. It also takes a signal from the modem at the other end and converts it back into computer info. That's what modems do in a nutshell. There is no simpler explanation than that. When I said the modem gets confused, id didn't want to go into all this description, that the poster may not understand. A modem doesn't get confused. It simply gets interrupted, which is what outside noises do. It's like two people talking, but you drop a soundproof wall between them for a couple of seconds. Now, with the *70, many phone companies are starting to charge to use the *70. You pay a monthly fee to have the option to use the *70 function. Actually, you pay a monthly fee for the call waiting service itself. Of course, this is for the telephone service with MCI Neighborhood. Your service and their charges may vary. However, the newer modems have a call waiting Function that will alert you when a call comes in. Only on modems compliant with v.92 and only on ISPs that support v.92. Not very many ISPs in the world, however, completely support v.92. This includes the big names like AOL, NetZero, Earthlink, and PeoplePC. The reason is that the upgrade from v.90 to v.92 is very expensive with very little gain, plus the rise of broadband acceptance has had an impact. There's simply no incentive for many ISPs to widely support v.92 and the benefits that it has. But no matter if you are "Old" school, or "New" school, everyone can agree that you modem will work only as good as you phone connection. That's always too true. I personally have never seen a 56K reach 56K Maybe someone out there has, but not me. And you never will, at least in the U.S.A. FCC mandates restrict data throughput rates on telephone lines to a maximum of 53k, and only if your phone line is the cleanest that is possible with minimal or absolutely no D/A conversion in the phone lines. - Reinhart |
#13
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PSU Fan Direction
Gateway said, "Too bad your house can't make use of our
superior modem." I said, "Not so fast. Your modem is not superior The only thing that would make the Gateway integrated modem superior is that it's connected directly to the southgate on the motherboard through a local bus as opposed to working through a PCI bus, USB port, or a parallel port. Other than that, I'm willing to bet it's a softmodem with a cruddy chipset, like a PCTel or a Motorola or an Intel, and running with a sloppy set of drivers. The tech turned me over to a manager who agreed to pay for an external modem. I kept the computer. I have used the external modem ever since. Good choice. All external modems are going to be hardware-based, at least for the parallel port variety. I did a modem noise check of my phone lines (in my new home) several months ago. It was somewhat high but then things settled down and I wasn't getting disconnected. Now the problem has returned. Call the phone company and have them correct the problem. They may perform a test and say that it's okay, but tell them that this is for a computer modem and while the line may be suitable for regular conversation, it is apparently too noisy and, therefore, unacceptable for use with a modem. You're paying for their services, so make them deliver you that service in the best way possible. What I probably should do to troubleshoot further is graph disconnects per day vs. weather trends. Also, maybe I'll try the internal modem. If the problem is with the phone line, switching to an internal modem won't help. All it will do is take one less object off your desk and free up one plug outlet. If you are using a parallel port connection, make sure that your BIOS is set to allow two-way parallel port communication and that your cable is also suitable for that purpose. If you are using a USB modem, make sure that you have the most up to date drivers for your USB controller and that it supports the USB mode that the modem requires. If your modem requires USB 2.0, then your USB port and cabling must support USB 2.0 and your BIOS must be set to allow this mode of communication, if available. Make sure that your modem does not have problems with using system resources, such as I/O addresses and interrupt requests. A modem will be assigned a COM port which means that resources associated with that COM port should be used by the modem only. Your modem is most likely plug-n-play so it will be assigned the necessary resources by your operating system automatically, but resource conflicts can still occur. Make sure your ISP software is configured to use your modem properly. Other things you could try is to use a different telephone cord that is the shortest possible for your needs. Also, be sure that the connection is as direct to the phone line as possible. You can get away with running it through one surge suppressor, though. Don't use RF-based plug-in phone jack extensions, particularly those that are not clearly labeled as intended for use with data communications. - Reinhart |
#14
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PSU Fan Direction
Hi!
And you never will, at least in the U.S.A. FCC mandates restrict data throughput rates on telephone lines to a maximum of 53k, and only if your phone line is the cleanest that is possible with minimal or absolutely no D/A conversion in the phone lines. - Reinhart I'm not so sure that communication faster than 53k is impossible to acheive. With a nearby local ISP I managed to get 54k or so *once*. The connection was reliable while it lasted, but I did eventually get disconnected. I remember having read the same thing about the 53k limit and wondering about it then... William |
#15
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PSU Fan Direction
"LASERandDVDfan" wrote
C wrote snip I did a modem noise check of my phone lines (in my new home) several months ago. It was somewhat high but then things settled down and I wasn't getting disconnected. Now the problem has returned. Call the phone company and have them correct the problem. They may perform a test and say that it's okay, but tell them that this is for a computer modem and while the line may be suitable for regular conversation, it is apparently too noisy and, therefore, unacceptable for use with a modem. You're paying for their services, so make them deliver you that service in the best way possible. Hmm. I am not optimistic they can do anything or should do anything unless I pay them bucks$$. ;-) But I'll consider ringing them. What I probably should do to troubleshoot further is graph disconnects per day vs. weather trends. Also, maybe I'll try the internal modem. If the problem is with the phone line, switching to an internal modem won't help. Sorry. I meant this would be an experiement that would assist my troubleshooting. If for some reason the internal modem had no more nor no less disconnects than the external modem, then I might be able to rule out phone line problems. Or at least this easy experiment might give me a bit more insight into the problem. :-) As I've said before, I think it's unrealistic to nail down a diagnosis on something as vague as this using an online forum where people can't actually play with my very own computer. I am trying to keep my threads very focused. E.g. see the subject lines of the two threads here. If my efforts seem way off, I'm sure someone will tell me. Also, obviously the learning curve at my end is steep, due to my other experience in technology. I am set for now. Thanks again. |
#16
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PSU Fan Direction
I'm not so sure that communication faster than 53k is impossible to acheive.
I didn't say that it was impossible and it certainly is possible to connect above 53k, but it's supposedly illegal in the U.S.A. to go above it and maintain it for prolonged periods due to FCC regulations. Therefore, being able to see such a connection stateside on a very clean connection is unlikely not because it's technically unfeasible, but because it's restricted by law in the United States. Your story is the first I've heard where the 53k limit was exceeded, albeit by an insignificant sum. However, in regards to this regulation, I would think that the FCC has better things to do with their time than acting like a bunch of @$$es by going after people who are lucky enough to enjoy a faster than 53k connection on their telephone modems. - Reinhart |
#17
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#18
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Sorry. I meant this would be an experiement that would assist my
troubleshooting. If for some reason the internal modem had no more nor no less disconnects than the external modem, then I might be able to rule out phone line problems. That sounds reasonable. As I've said before, I think it's unrealistic to nail down a diagnosis on something as vague as this using an online forum where people can't actually play with my very own computer. I am trying to keep my threads very focused. E.g. see the subject lines of the two threads here. If my efforts seem way off, I'm sure someone will tell me. Also, obviously the learning curve at my end is steep, due to my other experience in technology. True. All we can offer are essentially educated guesses until one of us can actually check out your computer to figure it out. I am set for now. Thanks again. You're welcome. Good luck! - Reinhart |
#19
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PSU Fan Direction
They compress the data and send it as packets with error
correction. Then the receiving end receives them and decompresses the data. All the while both ends are monitoring line quality and negotiating the next transmission. Pretty much what I described, but in more elaborate detail. Compression would be a form of simplification to transmit while error correction would help to keep anomolies in the data strem in check. Sending them in packets would help to make the transmission more robust as opposed to sending it in a linear fashion. In other words, it simplifies the data for transmission and has redundant corrections and a packet strategy to help keep the data flowing reliably. But, again, the transmission has to be modulated in a carrier to allow it be sent through the phone lines, which were meant for analogue transmission although several A/D-D/A conversion steps can take place in the interim between two telephone devices (which is one of the many causes of bottlenecking in dial-up modem connection speeds). Where a softmodem falls short is in the lack of its own cpu and a software driver must hog the main cpu to emulate the modem's cpu. Of course. In a very powerful pc this isn't usually too bad but in general mostly all other running programs suffer. The biggest problem with a softmodem, if you're running it on a very powerful computer with plenty of overhead like extra RAM, is that the emulator program may be sloppily written. This has been the case with a whole bunch of "bargain" softmodems that I've seen. No software can beat a hardware system. Especially not a winmodem. No argument here. This understanding was the primary reason why I replaced my Best Data Mach2 with a U.S. Robotics PerformancePro a few months ago when I was able to. Although the overhead gains were mainly negligible since I'm running a 2.08 GHz Athlon XP with 1 gig of RAM onboard, I don't get blue screen warnings anymore when I surf the net. The drivers for my old Best Data were probably badly written. And as for hardware modems, I'd recommend only 3Com/U.S. Robotics, which generally use Texas Instruments solutions, or modems with an Agere (formerly known as Lucent) solution. - Reinhart |
#20
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PSU Fan Direction
"Caroline" bravely wrote to "All" (16 May 04 01:36:50)
--- on the heady topic of " PSU Fan Direction" Ca From: "Caroline" Ca "Ricky Eck" wrote Ca C wrote I am still getting some spontaneous Internet disconnects but am now suspecting the phone lines and weather variations in my area. I forgot to answer this. I wouldn't suspect anything to so with the computer it's self. See the way how a modem works (I am going to use basic language here), is a complex language that can be described as different tones of noise. But there is a method to it's madness. Ca It's not madness. It's not complex. It is engineering, in which I have Ca three bachelor's and higher degrees. ;-) What sounds like static and noise to us, is really a complex language between the two modems. If there is any type of interruption between this communication, it could cause your internet connection to be lost. Ca Yup. Ca snip obvious Ca This Gateway 900c desktop as purchased in early September, 2001 has an Ca integrated modem. For a month I had terrible problems trying to get it Ca to connect to the internet. I spent dozens of hours working with Ca Gateway and America Online (my ISP then) to figure out why. They kept Ca blaming each other for the problem, of course. Finally a Gateway tech Ca and I narrowed it down to the strong possibility that the integrated Ca modem was too sensitive to my older home's phone line noise. Gateway Ca said, "Too bad your house can't make use of our superior modem." I Ca said, "Not so fast. Your modem is not superior; my old computer's Ca external modem works fine and is the superior one. I'm sending your Ca computer back for a full refund, per the warranty." The tech turned me Ca over to a manager who agreed to pay for an external modem. I kept the Ca computer. Ca I have used the external modem ever since. Ca I did a modem noise check of my phone lines (in my new home) several Ca months ago. It was somewhat high but then things settled down and I Ca wasn't getting disconnected. Now the problem has returned. Ca What I probably should do to troubleshoot further is graph disconnects Ca per day vs. weather trends. Also, maybe I'll try the internal modem. Ca Anyway, thanks for the suggestions. I have ideas where to go with Ca this. And as I mentioned in the other thread here on power supplies, my Ca computer is far from crippled. Some modems have trouble with being too sensitive. I've heard of a trick of using a variable L-pot to attenuate the phone line signal the modem receives. I've never had to use this tip so I can't say. However a common cause of noise in a phone line is dirty RJ phone connections. Replace those that cleaning doesn't seem to help. There can be a lot of connectors on a phone line and each is a potential source of noise. Asimov ****** .... If plugging it in doesn't help, turn it on. |
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PSU Fan Direction
Large power supply does not increase computer performance.
That is classic urban myth. Either computer gets sufficient power to execute the instruction at same speed - or computer crashes. The PSU is not a motor. A bigger PSU does not make the computer work faster. Either the computer executes at the speed of that master crystal oscillator - or it crashes - stops working. Same applies to CPU heat. Again, either CPU runs as crystal oscillator speed or it crashes. Cooling does not make a CPU run faster. Caroline wrote: "Ricky Eck" wrote Well, that "Could" increase performance. I would say that putting a power supply two times the amount then you had was the true increase of performance. However, the freezing up problem can be caused by MANY things. Yup. snip Furthermore, the cooler you can get that Processor, the better it will run. To use basic language: I assure you a definite upper limit to the CPU's speed exists, and once this limit is reached, cooling further will have no effect. |
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PSU Fan Direction
w_tom wrote:
Large power supply does not increase computer performance. That is classic urban myth. Either computer gets sufficient power to execute the instruction at same speed - or computer crashes. The PSU is not a motor. A bigger PSU does not make the computer work faster. Either the computer executes at the speed of that master crystal oscillator - or it crashes - stops working. Same applies to CPU heat. Again, either CPU runs as crystal oscillator speed or it crashes. Cooling does not make a CPU run faster. Freeze up = crash...I think you're arguing semantics here. If the old p.s. was undersized for the computer--or if the output had deteriorated for some reason--the new, more powerful supply could well be the source of improved performance. As far as air flow: IIRC, AT supply fans *exhausted* air from the supply; while ATX fans 'suck.' I don't know if that's a hard & fast rule, but I seem to recall the above as one of the changes when the ATX standard took effect. If you have the technical chops, you can easily reverse the airflow by opening the p.s. and turning the fan around. If your CPU has no fan, by all means get one. If you are 'really' concerned about airflow within the enclosure, buy an auxiliary case fan--orienting it so that the airflow supports that of the p.s. fan. Every case with which I'm familiar already has a cutout with screw holes for one. Any computer store, electronics supply store or even Radio Shack carries these. jak Caroline wrote: "Ricky Eck" wrote Well, that "Could" increase performance. I would say that putting a power supply two times the amount then you had was the true increase of performance. However, the freezing up problem can be caused by MANY things. Yup. snip Furthermore, the cooler you can get that Processor, the better it will run. To use basic language: I assure you a definite upper limit to the CPU's speed exists, and once this limit is reached, cooling further will have no effect. |
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PSU Fan Direction
Large power supply does not increase computer performance.
That is classic urban myth. True, a power supply that provides clean power will help make a system more reliable, but it won't produce performance gains. - Reinhart |
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PSU Fan Direction
As far as air flow: IIRC, AT supply fans *exhausted* air from the supply;
while ATX fans 'suck.' My ATX supply blows the air inside the case out, so it's an exhaust. - Reinhart |
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PSU Fan Direction
The thing to tell them is that you hear noise and echos on the phone
line. When the tech person hears the word "echo" he will tend do an in depth test for equalization and noise with the station rather than simply picking up the receiver and listening to the line. Good point. - Reinhart |
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PSU Fan Direction
On Sun, 16 May 2004 01:36:50 GMT, "Caroline"
put finger to keyboard and composed: This Gateway 900c desktop as purchased in early September, 2001 has an integrated modem. For a month I had terrible problems trying to get it to connect to the internet. I spent dozens of hours working with Gateway and America Online (my ISP then) to figure out why. They kept blaming each other for the problem, of course. Finally a Gateway tech and I narrowed it down to the strong possibility that the integrated modem was too sensitive to my older home's phone line noise. Gateway said, "Too bad your house can't make use of our superior modem." I said, "Not so fast. Your modem is not superior; my old computer's external modem works fine and is the superior one. I'm sending your computer back for a full refund, per the warranty." The tech turned me over to a manager who agreed to pay for an external modem. I kept the computer. I have used the external modem ever since. I did a modem noise check of my phone lines (in my new home) several months ago. It was somewhat high but then things settled down and I wasn't getting disconnected. Now the problem has returned. What I probably should do to troubleshoot further is graph disconnects per day vs. weather trends. Also, maybe I'll try the internal modem. Anyway, thanks for the suggestions. I have ideas where to go with this. And as I mentioned in the other thread here on power supplies, my computer is far from crippled. Most modems can produce a last call diagnostic report. This includes data such as Tx/Rx signal levels, Tx/Rx error rates, S/N ratio, numbers of speedshifts and retrains, etc. http://www.modemsite.com/56k/x2-inf.asp http://www.modemsite.com/56k/x2-hyperterm.asp http://www.modemsite.com/56k/usehyper.asp http://www.modemsite.com/56k/diag.asp http://www.modemsite.com/56k/trouble.asp My own Rockwell chipped modem produces the data below. Notice these highly abbreviated data for a good session ... TX/RX I-Frame count : 17654/21091 TX/RX I-Frame error count : 29/14 TX Rate (Last/Init/Min/Max) : 28800/26400/26400/28800 RX Rate (Last/Init/Min/Max) : 46667/46667/45333/46667 Modulation/Protocol/Compression : V.90/LAPM/V.42bis Retrains (Issued/Granted/Fast) : 0/0/5 Renegs (Issued/Granted) : 2/0 Retrans per frame/Frames rejected : 1/14 Error control timeouts in TX : 16 Error control NAKs received : 29 Termination Cause : Dte Hangup Command .... a not so good session ... TX/RX I-Frame count : 10268/34101 TX/RX I-Frame error count : 15/47 TX Rate (Last/Init/Min/Max) : 28800/26400/26400/28800 RX Rate (Last/Init/Min/Max) : 38667/42667/38667/42667 Modulation/Protocol/Compression : V.90/LAPM/V.42bis Retrains (Issued/Granted/Fast) : 0/0/0 Renegs (Issued/Granted) : 3/0 Retrans per frame/Frames rejected : 1/47 Error control timeouts in TX : 7 Error control NAKs received : 15 Termination Cause : Dte Hangup Command .... and a bad session (water in the cable) ... TX/RX I-Frame count : 784/4482 TX/RX I-Frame error count : 23/211 TX Rate (Last/Init/Min/Max) : 26400/26400/26400/28800 RX Rate (Last/Init/Min/Max) : 38667/44000/33333/44000 Modulation/Protocol/Compression : V.90/LAPM/V.42bis Retrains (Issued/Granted/Fast) : 0/1/2 Renegs (Issued/Granted) : 12/0 Retrans per frame/Frames rejected : 8/211 Error control timeouts in TX : 16 Error control NAKs received : 23 Termination Cause : Retrain Failed Notice that the initial CONNECT speed is not a reliable indicator of modem performance, as modems will speedshift as line conditions change. Notice also that the modem can tell you the reason for disconnect. For example, a "Termination Cause" of "Disconnect Frame Received" indicates that your ISP kicked you off. - Franc Zabkar -- Please remove one 's' from my address when replying by email. |
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PSU Fan Direction
On Sat, 15 May 2004 17:06:51 GMT, "Ricky Eck"
put finger to keyboard and composed: There is also two different modems on the market. Actually, there are three types, "soft", controllerless, and "hard" (controller based). Softmodems have a DAA (telephone line interface), controllerless modems have a DAA and DSP (digital signal processor), and "hard" modems have a DAA, DSP, and controller. Among other things, a modem's controller handles AT command parsing, UART emulation, data compression and error correction. These functions do not impact significantly on the host CPU. OTOH, the functions of a DSP are highly CPU intensive, so a softmodem (which emulates the DSP in software) may impact noticeably on CPU performance. There is the "SoftModem" a.k.a. "WinModem". Actually, to be pedantic, "Winmodem" is a USR trademark and refers to their line of controllerless modems. Examples of softmodem chipsets are PCtel HSP, Motorola SM56, Smartlink, and Conexant HSF. Controllerless examples include Conexant HCF, Intel HaM, Lucent Win Modem, and USR Winmodem. - Franc Zabkar -- Please remove one 's' from my address when replying by email. |
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PSU Fan Direction
Hi!
As far as air flow: IIRC, AT supply fans *exhausted* air from the supply; while ATX fans 'suck.' I don't know if that's a hard & fast rule, but I seem to recall the above as one of the changes when the ATX standard took effect. Every "regular" sized ATX supply I've ever seen pushes air out the back with a fan mounted in the back of the supply, just like AT units have done for years. It is usually the oddball sized or really cheap models that seem to do things differently. Some ATX PSUs even seem to have fans at both ends, which strikes me as odd. If you have the technical chops, you can easily reverse the airflow by opening the p.s. and turning the fan around. If your CPU has no fan, by all means get one. If you are 'really' concerned about airflow within the enclosure, buy an auxiliary case fan--orienting it so that the airflow supports that of the p.s. fan. Every case with which I'm familiar already has a cutout with screw holes for one. Any computer store, electronics supply store or even Radio Shack carries these. My question is why do almost all computer manufacturers today bother putting these holes in place? Some (like HP) use them and put a fan there, but many do not. Most of them are even left open. I've only seen them closed up on Gateway 2000 computers. I find that especially odd considering that the hole for the extra fan is usually right under the PSU...which makes me think that all the air comes in that hole and not necessarily through the case as it should. |
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PSU Fan Direction
Hi!
Large power supply does not increase computer performance. That is classic urban myth. Either computer gets sufficient power to execute the instruction at same speed - or computer crashes. The PSU is not a motor. A bigger PSU does not make the computer work faster. Perhaps not. For the basic concept of a bigger PSU not making the computer work any faster I agree with you. Obviously it cannot do so. However, for a system starved for power, a crash may not be the immediate result. The CPU may operate with reduced efficiency and/or speed if the power supply is insufficient as a protection measure. Therefore the addition of a bigger PSU that can handle the load better than the original can create the illusion of the PSU somehow making for a faster computer. Same applies to CPU heat. Again, either CPU runs as crystal oscillator speed or it crashes. Cooling does not make a CPU run faster. Definitely not always. Some systems (especially laptops) are able to downclock so as to protect themselves from heat damage. Even some "smarter" desktop motherboards can monitor their temperature and fan RPMs so as to shutdown or downclock in the event of a thermal problem. As for the statement about cooling not making a CPU run faster, ask any overclocker about that. The more you cool the chip, the harder you can push it, up until a point of failure occurs or reliable operation can no longer be acheived. :-) William Caroline wrote: "Ricky Eck" wrote Well, that "Could" increase performance. I would say that putting a power supply two times the amount then you had was the true increase of performance. However, the freezing up problem can be caused by MANY things. Yup. snip Furthermore, the cooler you can get that Processor, the better it will run. To use basic language: I assure you a definite upper limit to the CPU's speed exists, and once this limit is reached, cooling further will have no effect. |
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PSU Fan Direction
Computers do not work at reduced efficiency if starved for
power. This made so painfully obvious even from a data sheet for any simple logic IC. Either the computer works 100% fine or it crashes: 0% performance. Either it crashes / freezes or it keeps working. There is no inbetween. CPU does not change speed and efficiency like an eletric motor. Basic computer knowledge makes that woefully obvious. Either the PSU is insufficient and computer crashes - also called a complete and total failure. Or the computer works at 100% performance. This discussion is not about laptops - that have properly sized power supplies. Discussion limited to a system that somehow will run faster by increasing power supply. For that matter, take off the heatsink on an Intel CPU. It too will run slower - and not destroy itself like an AMD. But that is well beyond the context of this discussion - and should not be discussed in this thread. Will cooling a CPU that runs at the constant master clock frequency work more efficiently or faster when cooled more? No. But even worse, not one good technical reason is provided to justify these erroneous speculations. Even the reasons for cooling an overclocked CPU is not valid. Neither more cooling nor more power in a supply is going to make a CPU run faster. Either it works at full speed or it crashes. Most every desktop system works just fine on a 250 watt power supply. Not obvious from the so many technical experts who never even learned basic electrical principles; then advocated "More Power" as a solution. Far more damning are so many clone computers missing essential power supply functions. So instead of buying a supply with essential and necessary functions, those computer assemblers recommed "More Power". Just another reason for 500 watt power supplies that often cannot even output 500 watts. Bigger PSU is often a solution to failure by the computer assembler - who failed to learn basic facts. Bigger PSU does not make a CPU work more efficient or faster. Even concepts in overclocking are being misrepresented. "William R. Walsh" wrote: Perhaps not. For the basic concept of a bigger PSU not making the computer work any faster I agree with you. Obviously it cannot do so. However, for a system starved for power, a crash may not be the immediate result. The CPU may operate with reduced efficiency and/or speed if the power supply is insufficient as a protection measure. Therefore the addition of a bigger PSU that can handle the load better than the original can create the illusion of the PSU somehow making for a faster computer. Same applies to CPU heat. Again, either CPU runs as crystal oscillator speed or it crashes. Cooling does not make a CPU run faster. Definitely not always. Some systems (especially laptops) are able to downclock so as to protect themselves from heat damage. Even some "smarter" desktop motherboards can monitor their temperature and fan RPMs so as to shutdown or downclock in the event of a thermal problem. As for the statement about cooling not making a CPU run faster, ask any overclocker about that. The more you cool the chip, the harder you can push it, up until a point of failure occurs or reliable operation can no longer be acheived. |
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PSU Fan Direction
Franc is properly summarizing basic science as it conforms
to FCC regulation. Concept defined in one of the world's greatest papers, written by Claude Shannon, reprinted in the Bell Labs Technical Journal in July and Oct of 1948, then reprinted again in Scientific American July 1949. IOW Shannon's Law defines modem speed. Underlying concept should be common knowledge to any computer power user. Concepts that Franc Zabkar has properly summarized. Power increases to permit 56K would create too much crosstalk. Power is limited by FCC regulation. Shannon's Law therefore says maximum data rates would be 53K. Franc Zabkar wrote: AFAIK, the FCC mandates restrictions on the maximum signal levels, not the data rate. It's just that data rates in excess of 53333bps usually require signal levels greater than those allowed. At least that's the explanation that is often given at comp.dcom.modems. - Franc Zabkar |
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PSU Fan Direction
w_tom wrote: Computers do not work at reduced efficiency if starved for power. This made so painfully obvious even from a data sheet for any simple logic IC. Either the computer works 100% fine or it crashes: 0% performance. Either it crashes / freezes or it keeps working. There is no inbetween. CPU does not change speed and efficiency like an eletric motor. Basic computer knowledge makes that woefully obvious. Hi... But with all due respect, that is less than half of the story. Imagine this if you will. My system is running as your refer to it 100% fine. (the power supply is more than adequate) Then an additional demand is placed on the power supply, ie Explorer spins up all HDD's, a cd reader, a dvd reader, a floppy, and perhaps interrogates some USB devices. The available current is now perhaps woefully inadequate, voltage drops, and (in your words), is now 0% fine Most will say that the system is frozen or crashed. And they will say that the problem is in opening Explorer Take care. Ken |
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PSU Fan Direction
This is what I originally meant, however, this discussion has made a major
turn for the worst, so I backed out of it. Everyone has their "Facts" and "Opinion" that they read on papers and in magazines. However, I use true actual life facts. Mostly what I can see and touch. I seen where people built (including myself) their own computer. Well, like you said. The PSU was perfect for the original config. However, it was just for a CD Rom, Floppy, HDD, ect. The basic system. Then I added a CD Burner, A DVD Player (A total of 3 CD Drive Units), then added two more HDDs. Before I knew it, many of the apps I ran, were no longer running at the same rate (crashing, dragging, ect.). I was thinking that maybe there were additional programs running in the back ground. But there wasn't. So I started removing the power cables from the units installed, and lowe and behold, locks almost completely ceased. So I thought, what the heck, I upgraded the PSU, and I connected a higher wattage unit to my main. Connected everything up, and never had a problem with it. Hi... But with all due respect, that is less than half of the story. Imagine this if you will. My system is running as your refer to it 100% fine. (the power supply is more than adequate) Then an additional demand is placed on the power supply, ie Explorer spins up all HDD's, a cd reader, a dvd reader, a floppy, and perhaps interrogates some USB devices. The available current is now perhaps woefully inadequate, voltage drops, and (in your words), is now 0% fine Most will say that the system is frozen or crashed. And they will say that the problem is in opening Explorer Take care. Ken |
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PSU Fan Direction
I remember a while back, in the P1 chip days, a group of people built a tower system, that used a form of coolant. I don't think it was Freon, but something similar to it. I am not going to get fully into, mainly because I forget all the logistics of it. But I know their studies proved to increase the power of the chip almost 4 times the amount. It was a 75 MHz and ran at a 300 MHz rate. Like I said, it was many years back, and I just remember the basics. I seen only a year or so back, a tower case that used water to cool the chip. It worked the same as a radiator on a car. There was a "radiator" that sat on the chip, kinda like the Heat Sink does now. And there was another one in the back of the Tower, that fans blew through, blowing the heat out, and re-cooling the water, to be returned to the "Radiator" on the chip. If I remember correctly, this was for a dual chip system. But could be used for a single chip also. Another thing, too. Ever since I can remember, computer rooms have been ran around 68-72 degrees, to keep the computers cool. So, if cooling a chip is not important, how come companies continue to improve on the cooling systems of the Processor Chips in computers? How come Muti Million dollar companies spend more money on the conditions of their computer rooms (not meaning actual hardware), then they spend on insurance in a year (Just exaggerating)? There has to be some logic to it. I am sure Microsoft would not spend money where it is not needed. Rick Definitely not always. Some systems (especially laptops) are able to downclock so as to protect themselves from heat damage. Even some "smarter" desktop motherboards can monitor their temperature and fan RPMs so as to shutdown or downclock in the event of a thermal problem. As for the statement about cooling not making a CPU run faster, ask any overclocker about that. The more you cool the chip, the harder you can push it, up until a point of failure occurs or reliable operation can no longer be acheived. :-) William |
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Computers do not work at reduced efficiency if starved for
power. This made so painfully obvious even from a data sheet for any simple logic IC. That is so, but a computer is composed of many more components than the CPU. Power supply problems can cause errors not so much on the CPU but with the drives, for one. What do you think will happen on a modern computer when the hard disk trips on account of inadequate power? Every component in your computer requires power to run. If the power supply is unable to operate to the demands of the entire system, you will have problems. While the CPU may be running hunky-dory, other parts may not run so well and you can have crashes and hangups. In power, you've got to deal with volts and amps, and both indicates watts. Volts measure flow potential, amps measure current level, and watts measure actual ability to perform work. Here's something for you to check out: http://science.howstuffworks.com/question501.htm As for overclocking, pushing a CPU at a higher rate of oscillation will put more strain on it. This effect is well documented. Most every desktop system works just fine on a 250 watt power supply. Not if you are running a high end P4 system which requires more than 250 watts and uses it's own dedicated power socket. Bigger PSU is often a solution to failure by the computer assembler - who failed to learn basic facts. Bigger PSU does not make a CPU work more efficient or faster. Even concepts in overclocking are being misrepresented. A power supply that has a higher level of overhead helps the entire system run without problems. Running a power supply that is insufficient for the demands of the computer will strain it and the computer will not be reliable. As for overclocking, all it's about is pushing the CPU and RAM to levels beyond what the manufacturer had indicated. However, you need better cooling to pull it off as you do operate them at higher bus and multiplier levels, which puts more of a strain on them. - Reinhart |
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PSU Fan Direction
As for
"parallel" port modems, I've heard they exist, but I've never seen one. Serial port modems are always "hard". I got the terminology mixed. Choke it up to the always infamous brain-fart. - Reinhart |
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