I dug myself a hole, now I want out.

My mother died 2-1/2 years ago and left her
house to myself and my sister. My sister was living
there taking care of mom for about six months. Now sis and her
girlfriend are living in the house. Both in their middle 50s.
Since she was helping mom, sis's name was on the bank account.
The cash assets left were about $20k in a bank account with sis's name
on it. And about $20k is what I gave mom to live on over the later
years. When I ask her to send me half (basically my own money) she
said, she needed it to fix the house. The lawyer said her name is on the
account, it is her money. Now 2-1/2 years later, the money has been
spent. The house has no repairs.
I would like her to have the house, (It is all she has except debt)
but I am reluctant to give her a contract, because I don't think she
will pay me, the first time money is tight. (money is always tight for
her). The latest, she is trying to get here finances straightened out so
she can get a mortgage.
She works about 30 hrs a week, and I doubt she will get a mortgage, I
think this will just delay a sale until next summer rolls around.
Property is in the north, not many sales in the winter.

I'm looking for options.

She has a 50% equity in a $45,000 house. Any thoughts how to extricate
myself from this with some money.

I could make a contract, what clauses could I put in so I could get them
out if they didn't make payments or maybe subtract all delayed payments
from her share at the sale. (not what I want)

I just want out with as close to $20k as possible.

Mikek

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You didn't word it exactly like this, but basically you want to sell her
your 1/2 of the house and take her mortgage for that amount (which is
like her putting 50% down - her 1/2).

A 10 year 4% mortgage for $22,500 means a $230/month payment. Surely
she could pay that.

A mortgage with all the standard clauses gives you the right to
foreclose for failure to pay, sell the house, and have first dibs on the
proceeds.

Foreclosing is probably not a real option for you, but having a mortgage
that has that in it makes it more likely that she will pay.

You can't get blood out of a stone, as they say, so your best bet is a
mortgage that she CAN pay, regardless of the terms. E.g., a 20 year
mortgage with $120/mo payments is still better than nothing.

If she doesn't want to buy your half, you do have the right to force a
sale to get your half. Also probably something that you don't want to
do, but does give you some negotiating leverage.

Good luck - your situation is one of the more unfortunate ones that come
with "family".

Bob

It was a very bad idea to bequeath property in this manner, to give a
50-50 ownership to siblings, at least one of whom is irresponsible
with money.

Now you kind of live with this mistake. It is difficult to get water
from a stone, or 20,000 from an irresponsible 55 year old.

She has little incentive to take mortgage to buy you out. At the same
you should not co-sign anything either.

i

On 2014-08-20, amdx wrote:
I dug myself a hole, now I want out.

My mother died 2-1/2 years ago and left her
house to myself and my sister. My sister was living
there taking care of mom for about six months. Now sis and her
girlfriend are living in the house. Both in their middle 50s.
Since she was helping mom, sis's name was on the bank account.
The cash assets left were about $20k in a bank account with sis's name
on it. And about $20k is what I gave mom to live on over the later
years. When I ask her to send me half (basically my own money) she
said, she needed it to fix the house. The lawyer said her name is on the
account, it is her money. Now 2-1/2 years later, the money has been
spent. The house has no repairs.
I would like her to have the house, (It is all she has except debt)
but I am reluctant to give her a contract, because I don't think she
will pay me, the first time money is tight. (money is always tight for
her). The latest, she is trying to get here finances straightened out so
she can get a mortgage.
She works about 30 hrs a week, and I doubt she will get a mortgage, I
think this will just delay a sale until next summer rolls around.
Property is in the north, not many sales in the winter.

I'm looking for options.

She has a 50% equity in a $45,000 house. Any thoughts how to extricate
myself from this with some money.

I could make a contract, what clauses could I put in so I could get them
out if they didn't make payments or maybe subtract all delayed payments
from her share at the sale. (not what I want)

I just want out with as close to $20k as possible.

Mikek

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On Wed, 20 Aug 2014 15:51:47 -0500, amdx wrote:

I dug myself a hole, now I want out.

My mother died 2-1/2 years ago and left her
house to myself and my sister. My sister was living
there taking care of mom for about six months. Now sis and her
girlfriend are living in the house. Both in their middle 50s.
Since she was helping mom, sis's name was on the bank account.
The cash assets left were about $20k in a bank account with sis's name
on it. And about $20k is what I gave mom to live on over the later
years. When I ask her to send me half (basically my own money) she
said, she needed it to fix the house. The lawyer said her name is on the
account, it is her money. Now 2-1/2 years later, the money has been
spent. The house has no repairs.
I would like her to have the house, (It is all she has except debt)
but I am reluctant to give her a contract, because I don't think she
will pay me, the first time money is tight. (money is always tight for
her). The latest, she is trying to get here finances straightened out so
she can get a mortgage.
She works about 30 hrs a week, and I doubt she will get a mortgage, I
think this will just delay a sale until next summer rolls around.
Property is in the north, not many sales in the winter.

I'm looking for options.

She has a 50% equity in a $45,000 house. Any thoughts how to extricate
myself from this with some money.

I could make a contract, what clauses could I put in so I could get them
out if they didn't make payments or maybe subtract all delayed payments
from her share at the sale. (not what I want)

I just want out with as close to $20k as possible.

Mikek

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Greetings Mike,
If she was my sister, and I loved her, I would forgive any debt and
just let her have the house. Do you need the $20,000? If you don't
need the money, and it seems like maybe you don't because you got
along without it for several years, then just let her have it. I know
it's not fair to you, but you will probably feel better about it in
the long run. Send her a card that says Merry Christmas! or Happy
Birthday! or whatever and tell her that she is now obligation free
when it comes to you.
Eric

On 2014-08-21, wrote:
On Wed, 20 Aug 2014 15:51:47 -0500, amdx wrote:

I dug myself a hole, now I want out.

My mother died 2-1/2 years ago and left her
house to myself and my sister. My sister was living
there taking care of mom for about six months. Now sis and her
girlfriend are living in the house. Both in their middle 50s.
Since she was helping mom, sis's name was on the bank account.
The cash assets left were about $20k in a bank account with sis's name
on it. And about $20k is what I gave mom to live on over the later
years. When I ask her to send me half (basically my own money) she
said, she needed it to fix the house. The lawyer said her name is on the
account, it is her money. Now 2-1/2 years later, the money has been
spent. The house has no repairs.
I would like her to have the house, (It is all she has except debt)
but I am reluctant to give her a contract, because I don't think she
will pay me, the first time money is tight. (money is always tight for
her). The latest, she is trying to get here finances straightened out so
she can get a mortgage.
She works about 30 hrs a week, and I doubt she will get a mortgage, I
think this will just delay a sale until next summer rolls around.
Property is in the north, not many sales in the winter.

I'm looking for options.

She has a 50% equity in a $45,000 house. Any thoughts how to extricate
myself from this with some money.

I could make a contract, what clauses could I put in so I could get them
out if they didn't make payments or maybe subtract all delayed payments
from her share at the sale. (not what I want)

I just want out with as close to $20k as possible.

Mikek

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Greetings Mike,
If she was my sister, and I loved her, I would forgive any debt and
just let her have the house. Do you need the $20,000? If you don't
need the money, and it seems like maybe you don't because you got
along without it for several years, then just let her have it. I know
it's not fair to you, but you will probably feel better about it in
the long run. Send her a card that says Merry Christmas! or Happy
Birthday! or whatever and tell her that she is now obligation free
when it comes to you.

This is very wise thinking indeed.

i

On 8/20/2014 7:01 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 20 Aug 2014 15:51:47 -0500, amdx wrote:
om her share at the sale. (not what I want)

I just want out with as close to $20k as possible.

Mikek

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Greetings Mike,
If she was my sister, and I loved her, I would forgive any debt and
just let her have the house. Do you need the $20,000? If you don't
need the money, and it seems like maybe you don't because you got
along without it for several years, then just let her have it. I know
it's not fair to you, but you will probably feel better about it in
the long run. Send her a card that says Merry Christmas! or Happy
Birthday! or whatever and tell her that she is now obligation free
when it comes to you.
Eric


I'm not that big.

I'm working 50+ hrs a week, 52 weeks a year. Our two person business is
open 7 days a week, 10 hrs a day, 363 days a year. I'm living very
frugally, saving as much as I can. My sister on the other hand, has
spent much time traveling with no responsibilities, not even a home, her
and her friend lived in a van or with one relative or another. All that
is fine, I even wish I had that freedom, and wish I had visited some of
the places she has. That said, I don't feel responsible for her fun
lifestyle. She even blew through $93k she got when she sold her condo
years ago. She is working at a place that helps train and allows her to
apply for jobs. She has told me for over a year that she wants to learn
Quicken books to make herself more valuable, she has yet to do it. I've
told her she needs to visit the 40 business's within walking distance of
mom's (sis and my) house everyday and tell them she is available for
work. After a couple months she would know all the managers and could
get a job close to home and wouldn't need a car. Her excuse is, all jobs
require you to applied online.

I think she has already used about $30k of my money.
I'm 1000 miles from her, I talk cordially to her, but it's getting
harder and harder.
I just want $20k and my name off the house.

Options?

Mikek

You're screwed. Anything you do other than just give her you half you will become the bad guy. Give her you half and walk away. If you force a sale, she will likely destroy the house just because she can. If you set up a mortgage with her paying you, she will stop paying, and again, you will be the bad guy because you will have to evict your own sister. Likely she cannot buy your half with a lump sum. It's a no win all the way around.

On 2014-08-21, Gerry wrote:
You're screwed. Anything you do other than just give her you half
you will become the bad guy. Give her you half and walk away. If you
force a sale, she will likely destroy the house just because she
can. If you set up a mortgage with her paying you, she will stop
paying, and again, you will be the bad guy because you will have to
evict your own sister. Likely she cannot buy your half with a lump
sum. It's a no win all the way around.

I agree, she already punished herself. The money just is not there.

i

On 08/20/2014 7:55 PM, amdx wrote:
....

I just want $20k and my name off the house.

Options?

The latter is easy, the former "not so much".

You really have no leverage w/o playing hardball and even then there's
nothing to prevent her from just defaulting and filing bankruptcy if it
comes to that.

While it's unfortunate, you can't teach responsibility at this age and
it's not likely to be learned on its own, either.

I don't see any options that are palatable as others have said.

While it's too late now, the moral is the banking accounts should never
have had ownership changed, only limited POA and a responsible oversight
that monies were only used to benefit Mom while alive. Once she passed,
the assets remaining would have still been in the estate and subject to
the terms of the will on division. At _that_ point you could have
possibly recovered some cash in lieu of the half of the house and come
out reasonably whole. With what cash assets there were not in the
estate, your interest in the house is basically all there is and that's
of no cash value unless force a sale or you do try to finance it for her
or the like. Like another says, don't make the mistake of compounding
the problem by co-signing on an external mortgage or anything of that
ilk. It's one thing to have to forgive an uncollectable debt, it's
something else entirely to have to pay it off to a third party.

--

On Wednesday, August 20, 2014 6:36:24 PM UTC-4, Bob Engelhardt wrote:
You didn't word it exactly like this, but basically you want to sell her

your 1/2 of the house and take her mortgage for that amount (which is

like her putting 50% down - her 1/2).



A 10 year 4% mortgage for $22,500 means a $230/month payment. Surely

she could pay that.



A mortgage with all the standard clauses gives you the right to

foreclose for failure to pay, sell the house, and have first dibs on the

proceeds.



Foreclosing is probably not a real option for you, but having a mortgage

that has that in it makes it more likely that she will pay.



You can't get blood out of a stone, as they say, so your best bet is a

mortgage that she CAN pay, regardless of the terms. E.g., a 20 year

mortgage with $120/mo payments is still better than nothing.



If she doesn't want to buy your half, you do have the right to force a

sale to get your half. Also probably something that you don't want to

do, but does give you some negotiating leverage.



Good luck - your situation is one of the more unfortunate ones that come

with "family".



Bob

I'm going to agree with the "Give it up and feel good about yourself" crowd.. Even if you write the most ironclad of contracts, it is (at least round here) virtually impossible to evict someone. The bank account is sealed up in her name, she legally owes you absolutely zero there.

You could spend big bucks on lawyers who will not likely get you anything or you could talk with your sister about the situation and let her make a suggestion. An easy way out, maybe is to sell Mom's house and let Sis buy another of her own.

On 8/20/2014 9:57 PM, rangerssuck wrote:
On Wednesday, August 20, 2014 6:36:24 PM UTC-4, Bob Engelhardt wrote:
You didn't word it exactly like this, but basically you want to sell her



If she doesn't want to buy your half, you do have the right to force a

sale to get your half. Also probably something that you don't want to

do, but does give you some negotiating leverage.



Good luck - your situation is one of the more unfortunate ones that come

with "family".



Bob

I'm going to agree with the "Give it up and feel good about yourself" crowd. Even if you write the most ironclad of contracts,
it is (at least round here) virtually impossible to evict someone. The bank account is sealed up in her name, she legally owes you absolutely zero there.

Yep, the the bank account is in her name, there is no money left, and
she has a negative net worth.

You could spend big bucks on lawyers who will not likely get you anything or you could talk with your sister about the situation
and let her make a suggestion. An easy way out, maybe is to sell Mom's house and let Sis buy another of her own.

Here's where I made it worse, I actually signed paperwork with a realtor
that she called, I pointed out she should try to stay in the house,
because she will never be able to rent any place this cheap.
So, she stalled and looked for a mortgage, then after a couple weeks she
told me she couldn't get a mortgage, so she would sell it. A couple
weeks later the realtor called me, because he could not get a hold of
her. I called her and she said, the more she thought about it, she knew
there was nothing to rent cheaper than owning the house. Now she is
getting her finances in order, so she can get a mortgage.

Mikek

On 08/21/2014 9:14 AM, amdx wrote:
....

Here's where I made it worse, I actually signed paperwork with a realtor
that she called, I pointed out she should try to stay in the house,
because she will never be able to rent any place this cheap.
So, she stalled and looked for a mortgage, then after a couple weeks she
told me she couldn't get a mortgage, so she would sell it. A couple
weeks later the realtor called me, because he could not get a hold of
her. I called her and she said, the more she thought about it, she knew
there was nothing to rent cheaper than owning the house. Now she is
getting her finances in order, so she can get a mortgage.
....

No idea where this house is located, of course, but depending on those
local conditions the idea of downsizing may be a good one. That all
depends on those local factors that only can know by being familiar w/
the area.

OTOH, if she would put her house in order financially and step up to the
plate, that would be _a_good_thing_ (tm) and a major step forward.

Whether she feels any moral obligation to make good on the fairness
doctrine on split of assets is yet another question that will have much
to do with her behavior going forward as well, undoubtedly.

Another way to look at value in situations like this is to estimate what
the care given was worth in terms of cost-avoidance of outside hired
help and/or alternate living costs if mother couldn't have stayed at
home otherwise. It may be that part of the issue w/ the money is that
there's not a feeling that that effort is appreciated or accounted for
otherwise. That again, of course, is from afar w/o knowing anything
more of the situation. Something similar occurred here, though, so
"been there, done that" on the caregiving side as have many...

Just some other things to muddle the mix...

--

On 8/21/2014 9:33 AM, dpb wrote:
On 08/21/2014 9:14 AM, amdx wrote:
...

Here's where I made it worse, I actually signed paperwork with a realtor
that she called, I pointed out she should try to stay in the house,
because she will never be able to rent any place this cheap.
So, she stalled and looked for a mortgage, then after a couple weeks she
told me she couldn't get a mortgage, so she would sell it. A couple
weeks later the realtor called me, because he could not get a hold of
her. I called her and she said, the more she thought about it, she knew
there was nothing to rent cheaper than owning the house. Now she is
getting her finances in order, so she can get a mortgage.
...

No idea where this house is located, of course, but depending on those
local conditions the idea of downsizing may be a good one. That all
depends on those local factors that only can know by being familiar w/
the area.

OTOH, if she would put her house in order financially and step up to the
plate, that would be _a_good_thing_ (tm) and a major step forward.

Whether she feels any moral obligation to make good on the fairness
doctrine on split of assets is yet another question that will have much
to do with her behavior going forward as well, undoubtedly.

Another way to look at value in situations like this is to estimate what
the care given was worth in terms of cost-avoidance of outside hired
help and/or alternate living costs if mother couldn't have stayed at
home otherwise.

She did care for mom and I have thanked her for that.
On the other hand, she and her girlfriend used mom's house to land for
several weeks at a time over the years, using mom's meager SS, for
housing, hot water, heat, cool and food. She also spent our $20K+ and
has had over two years in the house without paying anything for my half.

It may be that part of the issue w/ the money is that
there's not a feeling that that effort is appreciated or accounted for
otherwise. That again, of course, is from afar w/o knowing anything
more of the situation. Something similar occurred here, though, so
"been there, done that" on the care giving side as have many...

Just some other things to muddle the mix...

--

Yes, a muddled mix!

Mikek

On Wednesday, August 20, 2014 8:15:29 PM UTC-4, Ignoramus14649 wrote:
On 2014-08-21, wrote:

On Wed, 20 Aug 2014 15:51:47 -0500, amdx wrote:

I dug myself a hole, now I want out.

My mother died 2-1/2 years ago and left her

house to myself and my sister. My sister was living

there taking care of mom for about six months. Now sis and her

girlfriend are living in the house. Both in their middle 50s.

Since she was helping mom, sis's name was on the bank account.

The cash assets left were about $20k in a bank account with sis's name

on it. And about $20k is what I gave mom to live on over the later

years. When I ask her to send me half (basically my own money) she

said, she needed it to fix the house. The lawyer said her name is on the

account, it is her money. Now 2-1/2 years later, the money has been

spent. The house has no repairs.

I would like her to have the house, (It is all she has except debt)

but I am reluctant to give her a contract, because I don't think she

will pay me, the first time money is tight. (money is always tight for

her). The latest, she is trying to get here finances straightened out so

she can get a mortgage.

She works about 30 hrs a week, and I doubt she will get a mortgage, I

think this will just delay a sale until next summer rolls around.

Property is in the north, not many sales in the winter.

I'm looking for options.

She has a 50% equity in a $45,000 house. Any thoughts how to extricate

myself from this with some money.

I could make a contract, what clauses could I put in so I could get them

out if they didn't make payments or maybe subtract all delayed payments

from her share at the sale. (not what I want)

I just want out with as close to $20k as possible.

Greetings Mike,

If she was my sister, and I loved her, I would forgive any debt and

just let her have the house. Do you need the $20,000? If you don't

need the money, and it seems like maybe you don't because you got

along without it for several years, then just let her have it. I know

it's not fair to you, but you will probably feel better about it in

the long run. Send her a card that says Merry Christmas! or Happy

Birthday !or whatever and tell her that she is now obligation free

when it comes to you.

This is very wise thinking indeed.

Well no, not even that. You see, there are probably only factory and construction workers in this group (so you'll doubt the advice, here). This whole question should have been asked in one of the legal discussion groups, like alt.lawyers or misc.legal

On 8/20/2014 4:51 PM, amdx wrote:
I dug myself a hole, now I want out.

My mother died 2-1/2 years ago and left her
house to myself and my sister. My sister was living
there taking care of mom for about six months. Now sis and her
girlfriend are living in the house. Both in their middle 50s.
snip

Family vs money---take your pick, you can't have both! Is a
relationship with your sister worth anything to you? Remember, this
decision will last the rest of your lives.

On 2014-08-21, amdx wrote:
Here's where I made it worse, I actually signed paperwork with a realtor
that she called, I pointed out she should try to stay in the house,
because she will never be able to rent any place this cheap.
So, she stalled and looked for a mortgage, then after a couple weeks she
told me she couldn't get a mortgage, so she would sell it. A couple
weeks later the realtor called me, because he could not get a hold of
her. I called her and she said, the more she thought about it, she knew
there was nothing to rent cheaper than owning the house. Now she is
getting her finances in order, so she can get a mortgage.

What exactly did you sign?

And how can she get a mortgage, without you agreeing, when you own a
half of the house?

i

On 08/21/2014 9:43 AM, amdx wrote:
....

She did care for mom and I have thanked her for that.
On the other hand, she and her girlfriend used mom's house to land for
several weeks at a time over the years, using mom's meager SS, for
housing, hot water, heat, cool and food. She also spent our $20K+ and
has had over two years in the house without paying anything for my half.
....

The question in these cases most often isn't one of the actual value
received but the person's self-perception of the value of the services
rendered. The two are rarely consistent on an objective scale although
a realistic accounting of the costs of replacement outside help if the
family member weren't there can be staggering.

So again, the awareness of what the other person really thinks their
value is/has been is a major factor and probably won't verbalize it in
hard numbers but has just a perception of whether it was or was not
commensurate.

And, of course, when there's a prior history of less than stellar
personal responsibility, that surely skews the bookkeeping.

--

On 8/21/2014 11:55 AM, Ignoramus10365 wrote:
On 2014-08-21, amdx wrote:
Here's where I made it worse, I actually signed paperwork with a realtor
that she called, I pointed out she should try to stay in the house,
because she will never be able to rent any place this cheap.
So, she stalled and looked for a mortgage, then after a couple weeks she
told me she couldn't get a mortgage, so she would sell it. A couple
weeks later the realtor called me, because he could not get a hold of
her. I called her and she said, the more she thought about it, she knew
there was nothing to rent cheaper than owning the house. Now she is
getting her finances in order, so she can get a mortgage.

What exactly did you sign?

I signed an agreement to list the property for sale.


And how can she get a mortgage, without you agreeing, when you own a
half of the house?

i


Oh, I want her to get a mortgage to pay me for my half.
That would be the ideal outcome. She would would have a place
to live for the rest of her life and I would have my $20k.
It would seem doable, to get a mortgage for 50% of the value.
But with her credit and work history, it may be tough.
I don't think she has a had a job that pays into SS for 15 years,
until just the last 1-1/2 years.
Mikek
Mikek


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On 8/21/2014 10:51 AM, wrote:
On Wednesday, August 20, 2014 8:15:29 PM UTC-4, Ignoramus14649 wrote:
On 2014-08-21, wrote:

On Wed, 20 Aug 2014 15:51:47 -0500, amdx wrote:

I dug myself a hole, now I want out.

My mother died 2-1/2 years ago and left her

house to myself and my sister. My sister was living

there taking care of mom for about six months. Now sis and her

girlfriend are living in the house. Both in their middle 50s.

Since she was helping mom, sis's name was on the bank account.

The cash assets left were about $20k in a bank account with sis's name

on it. And about $20k is what I gave mom to live on over the later

years. When I ask her to send me half (basically my own money) she

said, she needed it to fix the house. The lawyer said her name is on the

account, it is her money. Now 2-1/2 years later, the money has been

spent. The house has no repairs.

I would like her to have the house, (It is all she has except debt)

but I am reluctant to give her a contract, because I don't think she

will pay me, the first time money is tight. (money is always tight for

her). The latest, she is trying to get here finances straightened out so

she can get a mortgage.

She works about 30 hrs a week, and I doubt she will get a mortgage, I

think this will just delay a sale until next summer rolls around.

Property is in the north, not many sales in the winter.

I'm looking for options.

She has a 50% equity in a $45,000 house. Any thoughts how to extricate

myself from this with some money.

I could make a contract, what clauses could I put in so I could get them

out if they didn't make payments or maybe subtract all delayed payments

from her share at the sale. (not what I want)

I just want out with as close to $20k as possible.

Greetings Mike,

If she was my sister, and I loved her, I would forgive any debt and

just let her have the house. Do you need the $20,000? If you don't

need the money, and it seems like maybe you don't because you got

along without it for several years, then just let her have it. I know

it's not fair to you, but you will probably feel better about it in

the long run. Send her a card that says Merry Christmas! or Happy

Birthday !or whatever and tell her that she is now obligation free

when it comes to you.

This is very wise thinking indeed.



Well no, not even that. You see, there are probably only factory and construction workers in this group (so you'll doubt the advice, here).
This whole question should have been asked in one of the legal discussion groups, like alt.lawyers or misc.legal

Hey, thanks for those groups, I'll look into those.
Although, just spouting here has eased my mind, a little.
Mikek

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On 8/21/2014 10:57 AM, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 8/20/2014 4:51 PM, amdx wrote:
I dug myself a hole, now I want out.

My mother died 2-1/2 years ago and left her
house to myself and my sister. My sister was living
there taking care of mom for about six months. Now sis and her
girlfriend are living in the house. Both in their middle 50s.
snip

Family vs money---take your pick, you can't have both! Is a
relationship with your sister worth anything to you? Remember, this
decision will last the rest of your lives.

Would you like to adopt a sister? ;-)

Mikek

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On 8/21/2014 11:51 AM, wrote:
... You see, there are probably only factory and construction workers in this group ...

You're not even close! A lot of engineers, small business owners, ...

On 08/21/2014 12:19 PM, amdx wrote:
....

What exactly did you sign?

I signed an agreement to list the property for sale.

For what length of time is the agreement?

....

Oh, I want her to get a mortgage to pay me for my half.
That would be the ideal outcome. She would would have a place
to live for the rest of her life and I would have my $20k.
It would seem doable, to get a mortgage for 50% of the value.
....

W/o a cosigner, likely to be in the near term until can clean up the
credit history and all, I'd agree. Wouldn't say to not make the
attempt, however, certainly.

But, as was posited by at least one other, carrying the note yourself
would be a start while that's happening. If were to do so, would
definitely want to make it formal just as if were to a 3rd party both
because it then can be used to reference when try to get another
(assuming she keeps it current, of course ) as well as there are IRS
requirements that family "loans" have to carry "real" interest rates
that are consistent with other sources to count as loans. She also that
way gets the mortgage interest deduction if that's of any value to her
tax situation (which sounds like might not be, but it's not to be
forgotten in the calculations of option choices). To qualify, it would
have to be a secured mortgage instrument, not just a verbal agreement as
noted before. Also, don't forget to check in on whether she might be
eligible for mortgage-assistance payments under the National Housing Act
(Section 235).

Again, some professional advice is probably worth the consultation fee
here just to be sure to cross all the i's and dot the t's and not make
any other missteps. Plus, the devil is in the details and the pro will
know the situations to ask about for the specifics of the case...

--

On 2014-08-21, amdx wrote:
On 8/21/2014 11:55 AM, Ignoramus10365 wrote:
On 2014-08-21, amdx wrote:
Here's where I made it worse, I actually signed paperwork with a realtor
that she called, I pointed out she should try to stay in the house,
because she will never be able to rent any place this cheap.
So, she stalled and looked for a mortgage, then after a couple weeks she
told me she couldn't get a mortgage, so she would sell it. A couple
weeks later the realtor called me, because he could not get a hold of
her. I called her and she said, the more she thought about it, she knew
there was nothing to rent cheaper than owning the house. Now she is
getting her finances in order, so she can get a mortgage.

What exactly did you sign?

I signed an agreement to list the property for sale.

That does not seem to do too much damage.

And how can she get a mortgage, without you agreeing, when you own a
half of the house?

Oh, I want her to get a mortgage to pay me for my half.
That would be the ideal outcome. She would would have a place
to live for the rest of her life and I would have my $20k.

Makes sense.

It would seem doable, to get a mortgage for 50% of the value.
But with her credit and work history, it may be tough.
I don't think she has a had a job that pays into SS for 15 years,
until just the last 1-1/2 years.

I do not see any incentive for her to do so. I would move on and
disregard whatever she owes you, except that I would not sign anything
over to her or co-sign any mortgage, except for one where you get
paid-off for your half.

i

On 08/21/2014 12:46 PM, dpb wrote:
....

One last thought -- you mentioned a second person living there as well.
As you're a co-owner seems perfectly justified to ask for rent or
other substantive payment in return...this could, in fact, then be the
wherewithal your sister has to finish off the ability to repay a note
within her limited, otherwise, means...

That of course probably starts a whole new round of hysteria and
theatrics, but...

--

Tom Gardner wrote:
)
) Family vs money ... can't have both ...

Not always at the same time. Disappoint your family yes; just don't go too far. And it's OK, just say you're sorry for it the next day. Stuff just comes up.

On Wed, 20 Aug 2014 19:55:51 -0500, amdx wrote:

On 8/20/2014 7:01 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 20 Aug 2014 15:51:47 -0500, amdx wrote:
om her share at the sale. (not what I want)

I just want out with as close to $20k as possible.

Mikek

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Greetings Mike,
If she was my sister, and I loved her, I would forgive any debt and
just let her have the house. Do you need the $20,000? If you don't
need the money, and it seems like maybe you don't because you got
along without it for several years, then just let her have it. I know
it's not fair to you, but you will probably feel better about it in
the long run. Send her a card that says Merry Christmas! or Happy
Birthday! or whatever and tell her that she is now obligation free
when it comes to you.
Eric


I'm not that big.

I'm working 50+ hrs a week, 52 weeks a year. Our two person business is
open 7 days a week, 10 hrs a day, 363 days a year. I'm living very
frugally, saving as much as I can. My sister on the other hand, has
spent much time traveling with no responsibilities, not even a home, her
and her friend lived in a van or with one relative or another. All that
is fine, I even wish I had that freedom, and wish I had visited some of
the places she has. That said, I don't feel responsible for her fun
lifestyle. She even blew through $93k she got when she sold her condo
years ago. She is working at a place that helps train and allows her to
apply for jobs. She has told me for over a year that she wants to learn
Quicken books to make herself more valuable, she has yet to do it. I've
told her she needs to visit the 40 business's within walking distance of
mom's (sis and my) house everyday and tell them she is available for
work. After a couple months she would know all the managers and could
get a job close to home and wouldn't need a car. Her excuse is, all jobs
require you to applied online.

I think she has already used about $30k of my money.
I'm 1000 miles from her, I talk cordially to her, but it's getting
harder and harder.
I just want $20k and my name off the house.

Options?

Mikek



You asked for opinions Mike, I gave you mine. Is your sister worth
$20k to you? In other words, if you force the money from her by having
the house sold, will you never speak with her again? I'm not saying
you should give her more money, I'm saying you already have given it
to her and trying to get it back may not be worth it. It certainly
would not be worth it to me. There is no need for you to further fund
her living expenses but letting her have the house free and clear
isn't doing that because you are not having to pay even more money out
of pocket. You are in a bad situation and I feel bad for you, but only
you can decide which is worth more to you, your family or your money.
One option that occurs to me is that maybe you could get a lien put on
the house so that if she sells it you could then recover some of the
money. Tell your sister that you intend to do this, maybe she will
agree this is a good thing, and maybe you could draw up a contract
that pays you first a certain amount if the house is ever sold.
Eric

On 8/21/2014 12:46 PM, dpb wrote:
On 08/21/2014 12:19 PM, amdx wrote:
...

What exactly did you sign?

I signed an agreement to list the property for sale.

For what length of time is the agreement?

...

Oh, I want her to get a mortgage to pay me for my half.
That would be the ideal outcome. She would would have a place
to live for the rest of her life and I would have my $20k.
It would seem doable, to get a mortgage for 50% of the value.
...

W/o a cosigner, likely to be in the near term until can clean up the
credit history and all, I'd agree. Wouldn't say to not make the
attempt, however, certainly.

But, as was posited by at least one other, carrying the note yourself
would be a start while that's happening. If were to do so, would
definitely want to make it formal just as if were to a 3rd party both
because it then can be used to reference when try to get another
(assuming she keeps it current, of course ) as well as there are IRS
requirements that family "loans" have to carry "real" interest rates
that are consistent with other sources to count as loans. She also that
way gets the mortgage interest deduction if that's of any value to her
tax situation (which sounds like might not be, but it's not to be
forgotten in the calculations of option choices). To qualify, it would
have to be a secured mortgage instrument, not just a verbal agreement as
noted before. Also, don't forget to check in on whether she might be
eligible for mortgage-assistance payments under the National Housing Act
(Section 235).

Again, some professional advice is probably worth the consultation fee
here just to be sure to cross all the i's and dot the t's and not make
any other missteps. Plus, the devil is in the details and the pro will
know the situations to ask about for the specifics of the case...

--
I appreciate your info, and I would always have a lawyer do the
documents, but, I'm not sure most lawyers are the person to come up with
the ideas. I want to go to the lawyer with the ideas and have them
write the contract. Or tell me why I don't want to do something.
Maybe cosigning would not be a terrible idea, she would be responsible
to the bank, not me and a default might get her out of the house.
Mikek

Mikek

On 2014-08-21, amdx wrote:
On 8/21/2014 12:46 PM, dpb wrote:
On 08/21/2014 12:19 PM, amdx wrote:
...

What exactly did you sign?

I signed an agreement to list the property for sale.

For what length of time is the agreement?

...

Oh, I want her to get a mortgage to pay me for my half.
That would be the ideal outcome. She would would have a place
to live for the rest of her life and I would have my $20k.
It would seem doable, to get a mortgage for 50% of the value.
...

W/o a cosigner, likely to be in the near term until can clean up the
credit history and all, I'd agree. Wouldn't say to not make the
attempt, however, certainly.

But, as was posited by at least one other, carrying the note yourself
would be a start while that's happening. If were to do so, would
definitely want to make it formal just as if were to a 3rd party both
because it then can be used to reference when try to get another
(assuming she keeps it current, of course ) as well as there are IRS
requirements that family "loans" have to carry "real" interest rates
that are consistent with other sources to count as loans. She also that
way gets the mortgage interest deduction if that's of any value to her
tax situation (which sounds like might not be, but it's not to be
forgotten in the calculations of option choices). To qualify, it would
have to be a secured mortgage instrument, not just a verbal agreement as
noted before. Also, don't forget to check in on whether she might be
eligible for mortgage-assistance payments under the National Housing Act
(Section 235).

Again, some professional advice is probably worth the consultation fee
here just to be sure to cross all the i's and dot the t's and not make
any other missteps. Plus, the devil is in the details and the pro will
know the situations to ask about for the specifics of the case...

--
I appreciate your info, and I would always have a lawyer do the
documents, but, I'm not sure most lawyers are the person to come up with
the ideas. I want to go to the lawyer with the ideas and have them
write the contract. Or tell me why I don't want to do something.
Maybe cosigning would not be a terrible idea, she would be responsible
to the bank, not me and a default might get her out of the house.

Instead of getting her out of the house, co-signing will make the bank
take more of your money.

i

On Thursday, August 21, 2014 12:55:51 AM UTC, amdx wrote:


I'm 1000 miles from her, I talk cordially to her, but it's getting

harder and harder.

I just want $20k and my name off the house.



Options?


I would talk to her and see what she thinks is fair. My thoughts is that she might do what she thinks is fair. If she does not think what you propose is fair, she will manage to not do it.

After you know what she thinks it fair, I would offer to agree to even less than that amount. If she thinks what you propose is more than fair, she might do it. I suspect she will not, but there is always hope.

Dan

On 8/21/2014 7:17 PM, Ignoramus10365 wrote:
On 2014-08-21, amdx wrote:
On 8/21/2014 12:46 PM, dpb wrote:
On 08/21/2014 12:19 PM, amdx wrote:
...

What exactly did you sign?

I signed an agreement to list the property for sale.

For what length of time is the agreement?

...

Oh, I want her to get a mortgage to pay me for my half.
That would be the ideal outcome. She would would have a place
to live for the rest of her life and I would have my $20k.
It would seem doable, to get a mortgage for 50% of the value.
...

W/o a cosigner, likely to be in the near term until can clean up the
credit history and all, I'd agree. Wouldn't say to not make the
attempt, however, certainly.

But, as was posited by at least one other, carrying the note yourself
would be a start while that's happening. If were to do so, would
definitely want to make it formal just as if were to a 3rd party both
because it then can be used to reference when try to get another
(assuming she keeps it current, of course ) as well as there are IRS
requirements that family "loans" have to carry "real" interest rates
that are consistent with other sources to count as loans. She also that
way gets the mortgage interest deduction if that's of any value to her
tax situation (which sounds like might not be, but it's not to be
forgotten in the calculations of option choices). To qualify, it would
have to be a secured mortgage instrument, not just a verbal agreement as
noted before. Also, don't forget to check in on whether she might be
eligible for mortgage-assistance payments under the National Housing Act
(Section 235).

Again, some professional advice is probably worth the consultation fee
here just to be sure to cross all the i's and dot the t's and not make
any other missteps. Plus, the devil is in the details and the pro will
know the situations to ask about for the specifics of the case...

--
I appreciate your info, and I would always have a lawyer do the
documents, but, I'm not sure most lawyers are the person to come up with
the ideas. I want to go to the lawyer with the ideas and have them
write the contract. Or tell me why I don't want to do something.
Maybe cosigning would not be a terrible idea, she would be responsible
to the bank, not me and a default might get her out of the house.

Instead of getting her out of the house, co-signing will make the bank
take more of your money.

i


I would hope it would take more of her money not mine.
It seems ridiculous that two 50+ women cannot earn enough to
pay $300 a month for housing.
Mikek

On 8/21/2014 7:35 PM, wrote:
On Thursday, August 21, 2014 12:55:51 AM UTC, amdx wrote:


I'm 1000 miles from her, I talk cordially to her, but it's getting

harder and harder.

I just want $20k and my name off the house.



Options?


I would talk to her and see what she thinks is fair. My thoughts is that she might do what she thinks is fair. If she does not think what you propose is fair, she will manage to not do it.

After you know what she thinks it fair, I would offer to agree to even less than that amount. If she thinks what you propose is more than fair, she might do it. I suspect she will not, but there is always hope.

Dan


The dilemma is, she wants to stay in the house because it is cheaper
than any apartment. She has a negative net worth. I want my name off the
title. I don't want to give her any more of my hard earned saving. I
want to get my equity out of the property.
I would like to see her keep the house, I think it is in her best
interest to keep the house, she could end up homeless if she doesn't.
She has looked into subsidized housing for the elderly, I don't know
what she found.

As far as fair, I think she finds the existing arrangement works very
well for her.
Mikek

On Thu, 21 Aug 2014 15:43:46 -0700, wrote:

On Wed, 20 Aug 2014 19:55:51 -0500, amdx wrote:

On 8/20/2014 7:01 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 20 Aug 2014 15:51:47 -0500, amdx wrote:
om her share at the sale. (not what I want)

I just want out with as close to $20k as possible.

Mikek

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Greetings Mike,
If she was my sister, and I loved her, I would forgive any debt and
just let her have the house. Do you need the $20,000? If you don't
need the money, and it seems like maybe you don't because you got
along without it for several years, then just let her have it. I know
it's not fair to you, but you will probably feel better about it in
the long run. Send her a card that says Merry Christmas! or Happy
Birthday! or whatever and tell her that she is now obligation free
when it comes to you.
Eric


I'm not that big.

I'm working 50+ hrs a week, 52 weeks a year. Our two person business is
open 7 days a week, 10 hrs a day, 363 days a year. I'm living very
frugally, saving as much as I can. My sister on the other hand, has
spent much time traveling with no responsibilities, not even a home, her
and her friend lived in a van or with one relative or another. All that
is fine, I even wish I had that freedom, and wish I had visited some of
the places she has. That said, I don't feel responsible for her fun
lifestyle. She even blew through $93k she got when she sold her condo
years ago. She is working at a place that helps train and allows her to
apply for jobs. She has told me for over a year that she wants to learn
Quicken books to make herself more valuable, she has yet to do it. I've
told her she needs to visit the 40 business's within walking distance of
mom's (sis and my) house everyday and tell them she is available for
work. After a couple months she would know all the managers and could
get a job close to home and wouldn't need a car. Her excuse is, all jobs
require you to applied online.

I think she has already used about $30k of my money.
I'm 1000 miles from her, I talk cordially to her, but it's getting
harder and harder.
I just want $20k and my name off the house.

Options?

Mikek



You asked for opinions Mike, I gave you mine. Is your sister worth
$20k to you? In other words, if you force the money from her by having
the house sold, will you never speak with her again? I'm not saying
you should give her more money, I'm saying you already have given it
to her and trying to get it back may not be worth it. It certainly
would not be worth it to me. There is no need for you to further fund
her living expenses but letting her have the house free and clear
isn't doing that because you are not having to pay even more money out
of pocket. You are in a bad situation and I feel bad for you, but only
you can decide which is worth more to you, your family or your money.
One option that occurs to me is that maybe you could get a lien put on
the house so that if she sells it you could then recover some of the
money. Tell your sister that you intend to do this, maybe she will
agree this is a good thing, and maybe you could draw up a contract
that pays you first a certain amount if the house is ever sold.

The problem is that his sister may run it into the ground and end up
owing money on it if she gets a mortgage. Or if it collapses on her
roommate and the girl sues, that would place him at even more risk. I
think giving her the house and getting his name off it is the safest
thing he could do, and it doesn't matter whether he loves her any more
or not. Sad, that. Unfortunately, the $20k is a lost cause, with her
proving it -thrice- in the info he shared with us. (condo sale, his
$30k, and Mom's bank balance)

G'luck, Mikek. It can't be fun writing off yet another $20k...

--
The unexamined life is not worth living.
--Socrates

"amdx" wrote in message
...
On 8/21/2014 7:35 PM, wrote:
On Thursday, August 21, 2014 12:55:51 AM UTC, amdx wrote:


I'm 1000 miles from her, I talk cordially to her, but it's getting

harder and harder.

I just want $20k and my name off the house.



Options?


I would talk to her and see what she thinks is fair. My thoughts is that
she might do what she thinks is fair. If she does not think what you
propose is fair, she will manage to not do it.

After you know what she thinks it fair, I would offer to agree to even
less than that amount. If she thinks what you propose is more than fair,
she might do it. I suspect she will not, but there is always hope.

Dan


The dilemma is, she wants to stay in the house because it is cheaper
than any apartment. She has a negative net worth. I want my name off the
title. I don't want to give her any more of my hard earned saving. I want
to get my equity out of the property.
I would like to see her keep the house, I think it is in her best
interest to keep the house, she could end up homeless if she doesn't.
She has looked into subsidized housing for the elderly, I don't know
what she found.

As far as fair, I think she finds the existing arrangement works very
well for her.
Mikek



Who's been paying the property taxes?

On 08/21/2014 08:08 PM, amdx wrote:



I would hope it would take more of her money not mine.
It seems ridiculous that two 50+ women cannot earn enough to
pay $300 a month for housing.
Mikek


The bank won't care who pays, just that someone does.
Been there, done that, never again.

Your best bet is visit a lawyer. You want to get
completely out of her finances and business while
you are only $20k in the hole.

Anything you do will cost more of your money, until
you are completely out of all this.



technomaNge
--
Just let it go, enjoy the relief.

On 08/21/2014 6:52 PM, amdx wrote:
....

I appreciate your info, and I would always have a lawyer do the
documents, but, I'm not sure most lawyers are the person to come up with
the ideas. I want to go to the lawyer with the ideas and have them
write the contract. Or tell me why I don't want to do something.
Maybe cosigning would not be a terrible idea, she would be responsible
to the bank, not me and a default might get her out of the house.
....

The lawyer if worth any amount of his/her salt should certainly be able
to provide advice regarding structuring an arrangement that provides a
reasonable chance of working and avoids more difficulties. Also whether
there is any recourse overlooked here owing to the details of the actual
situation -- I still wonder at least some about the other assets that
apparently disappeared and whether the dismissal of them was entirely
appropriate. May be moot point but still it's a query in my mind.

Anyway, that aside, cosigning also makes the cosigner responsible to the
bank and that would then be you if she doesn't follow through. Given
the history outlined here I think relying on that would be a grave
mistake at this point; at least until she has shown the ability and
willingness to do the responsible thing for a while. In that case
you've then got another cash outlay out of pocket that is going to the
third party and it's got no tax advantage even. While the payments would
include mortgage interest since it's not your primary or secondary
residence it's not deductible even to recoup that small fraction.
That's a losing proposition all way 'round--if that were to be the
scenario that played out you'd have been far better off to just have
quit-claim deeded your half to her up front. It's even more of a losing
proposition if, as I surmise from the conversation, there presently is
no mortgage on the property.

That's why altho it's a hassle and you don't get the whole amount up
front the idea of "tote the note" does make at least some sense -- you
get some monies over a period of time, she eventually if follows thru
gets the house...

--

On 8/21/2014 1:24 PM, amdx wrote:
On 8/21/2014 10:57 AM, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 8/20/2014 4:51 PM, amdx wrote:
I dug myself a hole, now I want out.

My mother died 2-1/2 years ago and left her
house to myself and my sister. My sister was living
there taking care of mom for about six months. Now sis and her
girlfriend are living in the house. Both in their middle 50s.
snip

Family vs money---take your pick, you can't have both! Is a
relationship with your sister worth anything to you? Remember, this
decision will last the rest of your lives.

Would you like to adopt a sister? ;-)

Mikek

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One sister still won't speak with me after mom's death. I cared for
parents in diapers for over 10 years...she did nothing to help yet
criticized every decision and had her hand out.

On 2014-08-22, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 8/21/2014 1:24 PM, amdx wrote:
On 8/21/2014 10:57 AM, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 8/20/2014 4:51 PM, amdx wrote:
I dug myself a hole, now I want out.

My mother died 2-1/2 years ago and left her
house to myself and my sister. My sister was living
there taking care of mom for about six months. Now sis and her
girlfriend are living in the house. Both in their middle 50s.
snip

Family vs money---take your pick, you can't have both! Is a
relationship with your sister worth anything to you? Remember, this
decision will last the rest of your lives.

Would you like to adopt a sister? ;-)

One sister still won't speak with me after mom's death. I cared for
parents in diapers for over 10 years...she did nothing to help yet
criticized every decision and had her hand out.

Was it because of money or something else?

i

On 08/21/2014 8:17 PM, amdx wrote:
....

The dilemma is, she wants to stay in the house because it is cheaper
than any apartment. She has a negative net worth. I want my name off the
title. I don't want to give her any more of my hard earned saving. I
want to get my equity out of the property.
I would like to see her keep the house, I think it is in her best
interest to keep the house, she could end up homeless if she doesn't.
She has looked into subsidized housing for the elderly, I don't know
what she found.

As far as fair, I think she finds the existing arrangement works very
well for her.

Dan's point is essentially the same one I made earlier that "perceived
value for services rendered" isn't necessarily at all equivalent to any
rational basis. Hence, if may well seem entirely fair to her (and
probably does). Unfortunately, changing such a self-perception is about
as easy as winning a flame-war argument on a usenet group.

That she's been enabled by a combination of events for years to get away
with being irresponsible without dire consequences to date doesn't help.

Again, about the only practical solution I'd see would be the financing
of the place for her temporarily while she gets her financials in order.
Under the big if of is she were to do that and follow thru on payments
to you on that private mortgage and also clean up whatever issues there
are on credit rating and have a stead income in some number of years it
could possibly be transitioned to a regular mortgage.

That she would follow through would seem a major risk, however, which is
again why I'd never suggest you even consider the co-signer or other
guarantor route for anything--it's too risky and likely to encumber you
personally, and thereby the business as well if you're running it as dba
or llc or the like without full corporate wrappings.

--

On 8/22/2014 3:08 PM, Ignoramus7070 wrote:
On 2014-08-22, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 8/21/2014 1:24 PM, amdx wrote:
On 8/21/2014 10:57 AM, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 8/20/2014 4:51 PM, amdx wrote:
I dug myself a hole, now I want out.

My mother died 2-1/2 years ago and left her
house to myself and my sister. My sister was living
there taking care of mom for about six months. Now sis and her
girlfriend are living in the house. Both in their middle 50s.
snip

Family vs money---take your pick, you can't have both! Is a
relationship with your sister worth anything to you? Remember, this
decision will last the rest of your lives.

Would you like to adopt a sister? ;-)

One sister still won't speak with me after mom's death. I cared for
parents in diapers for over 10 years...she did nothing to help yet
criticized every decision and had her hand out.

Was it because of money or something else?

i


She wanted the family silver that my mom gave to my other sister. She
also demanded 25% of my business that I bought from dad many years
earlier. She said that dad didn't give her her fair share and that I
was obligated to make it right. Some day, I hope she comes around to
reality.

On 8/21/2014 11:12 PM, Rick wrote:

"amdx" wrote in message
...
On 8/21/2014 7:35 PM, wrote:
On Thursday, August 21, 2014 12:55:51 AM UTC, amdx wrote:


I'm 1000 miles from her, I talk cordially to her, but it's getting

harder and harder.

I just want $20k and my name off the house.



Options?


I would talk to her and see what she thinks is fair. My thoughts is
that she might do what she thinks is fair. If she does not think
what you propose is fair, she will manage to not do it.

After you know what she thinks it fair, I would offer to agree to
even less than that amount. If she thinks what you propose is more
than fair, she might do it. I suspect she will not, but there is
always hope.

Dan


The dilemma is, she wants to stay in the house because it is cheaper
than any apartment. She has a negative net worth. I want my name off
the title. I don't want to give her any more of my hard earned saving.
I want to get my equity out of the property.
I would like to see her keep the house, I think it is in her best
interest to keep the house, she could end up homeless if she doesn't.
She has looked into subsidized housing for the elderly, I don't know
what she found.

As far as fair, I think she finds the existing arrangement works very
well for her.
Mikek



Who's been paying the property taxes?
She has. About $1,000 a year.
Mikek

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