Ive got a couple firearms Id like to try a bigger cast bullet in
(Microgroove among others)

My molds will cast a larger bullet..say .461...but I need to size to
...459

I have, lets say ,a lubricator/ sizer die that will do .457

Any good way to open them up .002?

One assumes that they are harder than hell, and I dont have a good way
to id grind them and keep out taper.

Any suggestions or ?

I have a few extra dies so I can experiment

Just pondering a bit.

Gunner
The methodology of the left has always been:

1. Lie
2. Repeat the lie as many times as possible
3. Have as many people repeat the lie as often as possible
4. Eventually, the uninformed believe the lie
5. The lie will then be made into some form oflaw
6. Then everyone must conform to the lie

On Fri, 01 Mar 2013 06:28:56 -0800, Gunner
wrote:

Ive got a couple firearms Id like to try a bigger cast bullet in
(Microgroove among others)

My molds will cast a larger bullet..say .461...but I need to size to
..459

I have, lets say ,a lubricator/ sizer die that will do .457

Any good way to open them up .002?

One assumes that they are harder than hell, and I dont have a good way
to id grind them and keep out taper.

Any suggestions or ?

Before the jig grinder was invented, that kind of work (opening up
hardened drill jigs, mostly) was done in a lathe with a high-speed
internal grinder.

A Dremel in your tool post works.

--
Ed Huntress



I have a few extra dies so I can experiment

Just pondering a bit.

Gunner
The methodology of the left has always been:

1. Lie
2. Repeat the lie as many times as possible
3. Have as many people repeat the lie as often as possible
4. Eventually, the uninformed believe the lie
5. The lie will then be made into some form oflaw
6. Then everyone must conform to the lie

On Mar 1, 9:28*am, Gunner wrote:

Any good way to open them up .002?

One assumes that they are harder than hell, and I dont have a good way
to id grind them and keep out taper.

Any suggestions or ?



I would just make a die out of whatever steel you have handy that
machines easily. Are you really going to use it enough to worry about
wear? I would mike the first couple of bullets sized and then mike
again when you have sized 50 bullets. That would give you an idea of
the rate of wear. My bet is that there is not a lot of wear.

If i am wrong , then i would take a die and case harden it.


Dan

On Fri, 01 Mar 2013 09:32:14 -0500, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Fri, 01 Mar 2013 06:28:56 -0800, Gunner
wrote:

Ive got a couple firearms Id like to try a bigger cast bullet in
(Microgroove among others)

My molds will cast a larger bullet..say .461...but I need to size to
..459

I have, lets say ,a lubricator/ sizer die that will do .457

Any good way to open them up .002?

One assumes that they are harder than hell, and I dont have a good way
to id grind them and keep out taper.

Any suggestions or ?

Before the jig grinder was invented, that kind of work (opening up
hardened drill jigs, mostly) was done in a lathe with a high-speed
internal grinder.

A Dremel in your tool post works.

Ive got a couple tool post grinders...just really concerned about
keeping it from grinding a taper. It needs to be in the 10ths for
square.

Gunner

The methodology of the left has always been:

1. Lie
2. Repeat the lie as many times as possible
3. Have as many people repeat the lie as often as possible
4. Eventually, the uninformed believe the lie
5. The lie will then be made into some form oflaw
6. Then everyone must conform to the lie

On Fri, 1 Mar 2013 13:39:04 -0800 (PST), "
I would just make a die out of whatever steel you have handy that
machines easily. Are you really going to use it enough to worry about
wear? I would mike the first couple of bullets sized and then mike
again when you have sized 50 bullets. That would give you an idea of
the rate of wear. My bet is that there is not a lot of wear.

If i am wrong , then i would take a die and case harden it.


Dan

That..is not a bad idea. I do have a machine shop and a heat treating
oven.

Not a bad idea at all.

Thanks!! Id not considered making my own dies, oddly enough. Blush

Many many thanks!! for slamming my head against reality!

I honestly have no idea of why I didnt think of making all new dies
from scratch. Crom knows I have the material and the tools...and maybe
the skills.

Gunner

The methodology of the left has always been:

1. Lie
2. Repeat the lie as many times as possible
3. Have as many people repeat the lie as often as possible
4. Eventually, the uninformed believe the lie
5. The lie will then be made into some form oflaw
6. Then everyone must conform to the lie

On Fri, 01 Mar 2013 14:00:53 -0800, Gunner
wrote:

On Fri, 01 Mar 2013 09:32:14 -0500, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Fri, 01 Mar 2013 06:28:56 -0800, Gunner
wrote:

Ive got a couple firearms Id like to try a bigger cast bullet in
(Microgroove among others)

My molds will cast a larger bullet..say .461...but I need to size to
..459

I have, lets say ,a lubricator/ sizer die that will do .457

Any good way to open them up .002?

One assumes that they are harder than hell, and I dont have a good way
to id grind them and keep out taper.

Any suggestions or ?

Before the jig grinder was invented, that kind of work (opening up
hardened drill jigs, mostly) was done in a lathe with a high-speed
internal grinder.

A Dremel in your tool post works.

Ive got a couple tool post grinders...just really concerned about
keeping it from grinding a taper. It needs to be in the 10ths for
square.

Over the length of a die, the straightness should be in the
millionths. With a tool post grinder, you should be relying on the
straightness of the lathe bed, and only over a very short length.
Don't, for God's sake, use the compound.

And spark-out. It will only take a minute.

I've done similar things, Gunner, on my old South Bend. No taper.

--
Ed Huntress


Gunner

The methodology of the left has always been:

1. Lie
2. Repeat the lie as many times as possible
3. Have as many people repeat the lie as often as possible
4. Eventually, the uninformed believe the lie
5. The lie will then be made into some form oflaw
6. Then everyone must conform to the lie

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 01 Mar 2013 06:28:56 -0800, Gunner
wrote:

Ive got a couple firearms Id like to try a bigger cast bullet in
(Microgroove among others)

My molds will cast a larger bullet..say .461...but I need to size to
..459

I have, lets say ,a lubricator/ sizer die that will do .457

Any good way to open them up .002?

One assumes that they are harder than hell, and I dont have a good way
to id grind them and keep out taper.

Any suggestions or ?

Before the jig grinder was invented, that kind of work (opening up
hardened drill jigs, mostly) was done in a lathe with a high-speed
internal grinder.

A Dremel in your tool post works.

--
Ed Huntress

Can you say Sunnen hone?
Piece of cake---capable of working to millionths in quailified hands.

Harold

On Mon, 04 Mar 2013 07:38:25 GMT, "Harold & Susan Vordos"
wrote:


"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 01 Mar 2013 06:28:56 -0800, Gunner
wrote:

Ive got a couple firearms Id like to try a bigger cast bullet in
(Microgroove among others)

My molds will cast a larger bullet..say .461...but I need to size to
..459

I have, lets say ,a lubricator/ sizer die that will do .457

Any good way to open them up .002?

One assumes that they are harder than hell, and I dont have a good way
to id grind them and keep out taper.

Any suggestions or ?

Before the jig grinder was invented, that kind of work (opening up
hardened drill jigs, mostly) was done in a lathe with a high-speed
internal grinder.

A Dremel in your tool post works.

--
Ed Huntress

Can you say Sunnen hone?

I can say it. I just can't afford it.

--
Ed Huntress


Piece of cake---capable of working to millionths in quailified hands.

Harold

On Mon, 04 Mar 2013 07:38:25 GMT, "Harold & Susan Vordos"
wrote:


"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 01 Mar 2013 06:28:56 -0800, Gunner
wrote:

Ive got a couple firearms Id like to try a bigger cast bullet in
(Microgroove among others)

My molds will cast a larger bullet..say .461...but I need to size to
..459

I have, lets say ,a lubricator/ sizer die that will do .457

Any good way to open them up .002?

One assumes that they are harder than hell, and I dont have a good way
to id grind them and keep out taper.

Any suggestions or ?

Before the jig grinder was invented, that kind of work (opening up
hardened drill jigs, mostly) was done in a lathe with a high-speed
internal grinder.

A Dremel in your tool post works.

--
Ed Huntress

Can you say Sunnen hone?
Piece of cake---capable of working to millionths in quailified hands.

Harold

I actually own a Sunnen. Not a bad idea at all. Ill have to see if the
guy is done using it, and if he left me any of the smaller tooling

Gunner

The methodology of the left has always been:

1. Lie
2. Repeat the lie as many times as possible
3. Have as many people repeat the lie as often as possible
4. Eventually, the uninformed believe the lie
5. The lie will then be made into some form oflaw
6. Then everyone must conform to the lie

On Mar 4, 8:38*am, Ed Huntress wrote:


Can you say Sunnen hone?

I can say it. I just can't afford it.

--
Ed Huntress


The used ones are not all that expensive. There is one on Ebay with a
$1200 buy it now, and several more at under $2000 . But they are not
exactly hobby machines. I could probably figure out a use for one
every year or two. The same money could be spent on a vertical band
saw and that would get a lot more use.


Dan

On Mon, 4 Mar 2013 06:07:25 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Mar 4, 8:38*am, Ed Huntress wrote:


Can you say Sunnen hone?

I can say it. I just can't afford it.

--
Ed Huntress


The used ones are not all that expensive. There is one on Ebay with a
$1200 buy it now, and several more at under $2000 . But they are not
exactly hobby machines. I could probably figure out a use for one
every year or two. The same money could be spent on a vertical band
saw and that would get a lot more use.


Dan

For a little job like Gunner is talking about, the quickest and surest
way to do it, absent a $1200 tool, is to use his internal grinder.

I think he's overly worried about taper. He shouldn't have any
measurable taper over that short stroke. If he does, he has bigger
problems with that lathe.

--
Ed Huntress

On Mon, 4 Mar 2013 06:07:25 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Mar 4, 8:38*am, Ed Huntress wrote:


Can you say Sunnen hone?

I can say it. I just can't afford it.

--
Ed Huntress


The used ones are not all that expensive. There is one on Ebay with a
$1200 buy it now, and several more at under $2000 . But they are not
exactly hobby machines. I could probably figure out a use for one
every year or two. The same money could be spent on a vertical band
saw and that would get a lot more use.


Dan

I happen to have a rather nice Delta labled Milwaukee 20" metal/wood
vertical bandsaw for sale at the moment. And the tires are in very
good shape.

$1800 and its yours

Gunner

The methodology of the left has always been:

1. Lie
2. Repeat the lie as many times as possible
3. Have as many people repeat the lie as often as possible
4. Eventually, the uninformed believe the lie
5. The lie will then be made into some form oflaw
6. Then everyone must conform to the lie

On Mar 4, 9:47*am, Ed Huntress wrote:


I think he's overly worried about taper. He shouldn't have any
measurable taper over that short stroke. If he does, he has bigger
problems with that lathe.

--
Ed Huntress

I also think he is overly concerned about taper. I think that taper
is a non issue. If the die has a lot of taper, will it make any
difference? The lead will be the size of the smallest section of the
die.


Dan

On Mon, 4 Mar 2013 10:12:53 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Mar 4, 9:47*am, Ed Huntress wrote:


I think he's overly worried about taper. He shouldn't have any
measurable taper over that short stroke. If he does, he has bigger
problems with that lathe.

--
Ed Huntress

I also think he is overly concerned about taper. I think that taper
is a non issue. If the die has a lot of taper, will it make any
difference? The lead will be the size of the smallest section of the
die.


Dan

Taper does indeed make a huge difference in the application. Most
bullets are aprox .001 bigger than bore diameter. Squeezing it into
the bore means it becomes squeezed by the rifling and it tends to
spread in the grooves and be impressed by the lands.

Marlin Microgroove rifling is much shallower..but there are many many
more lands and grooves so they dont protrude as much. If the bullet is
too small, or the bore bigger than "normal"..it tends to not engrave
and spin the bullet properly..but simply be shoved enmass through the
barrel, peeling off bits of lead until it is small enough to be pushed
out the end of the barrel with less than proper spin to keep it
stablized.

"Normal" lands and grooves can be found on barrels that are also
oversize. So while the lands and grooves are sharp and proud..they may
not be big enough in that fat bore..to suitibly grab and control the
bullet and it too..starts cutting off bits and pieces unit its bore
diameter and is pushed out the barrel..with less spin than normal..and
with significant damage. Lead is much much softer than copper/nickle
alloys...so they tend to be far more fragile. Think of it as putting
a spike in a bank to hold your boat. If its sand...its a long walk
home. If its solid dirt..it will hold your boat until you return.

I shoot a lot of military bolt action rifles from many countries. Some
of them have "normal" barrels with oversized bores. So making the
bullets bigger is pretty much required when shooting lead bullets.
When they are much bigger..they dont work as well for the reasons
above. In those cases with a tapered bullet..you may get the front
engraved..but the back is simply skipping along behind the engraved
section. This may or may not shoot very well. If the bullet is small
at the front and big at the ass end..it may very well be turned
slightly sideways as it goes down the barrel and be very very
unbalanced after leaving the barrel.

When you are dealing with spins of 150,000 rpm -200,000 rpm..having an
unbalanced soft bullet is not condusive to good accuracy, let alone
having the bullet break up in flight....shrug

Now if the taper was small at the bottom of the die and big at the
top..we may or may not have a good bullet flight. If its small at the
mouth of the die and big at the ass end..its going to rip itself up as
its being sized, then slightly compressed, expanded at the bottom of
the die, and then ripped yet again as its being pushed back out of the
die. We are talking only a thousanth or so..yes indeed..but a good
bullet is now badly damaged at those RPM ranges and wierd ****
happens.

Gunner

The methodology of the left has always been:

1. Lie
2. Repeat the lie as many times as possible
3. Have as many people repeat the lie as often as possible
4. Eventually, the uninformed believe the lie
5. The lie will then be made into some form oflaw
6. Then everyone must conform to the lie

On Mon, 04 Mar 2013 11:48:11 -0800, Gunner
wrote:

On Mon, 4 Mar 2013 10:12:53 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Mar 4, 9:47*am, Ed Huntress wrote:


I think he's overly worried about taper. He shouldn't have any
measurable taper over that short stroke. If he does, he has bigger
problems with that lathe.

--
Ed Huntress

I also think he is overly concerned about taper. I think that taper
is a non issue. If the die has a lot of taper, will it make any
difference? The lead will be the size of the smallest section of the
die.


Dan

Taper does indeed make a huge difference in the application. Most
bullets are aprox .001 bigger than bore diameter. Squeezing it into
the bore means it becomes squeezed by the rifling and it tends to
spread in the grooves and be impressed by the lands.

Marlin Microgroove rifling is much shallower..but there are many many
more lands and grooves so they dont protrude as much. If the bullet is
too small, or the bore bigger than "normal"..it tends to not engrave
and spin the bullet properly..but simply be shoved enmass through the
barrel, peeling off bits of lead until it is small enough to be pushed
out the end of the barrel with less than proper spin to keep it
stablized.

"Normal" lands and grooves can be found on barrels that are also
oversize. So while the lands and grooves are sharp and proud..they may
not be big enough in that fat bore..to suitibly grab and control the
bullet and it too..starts cutting off bits and pieces unit its bore
diameter and is pushed out the barrel..with less spin than normal..and
with significant damage. Lead is much much softer than copper/nickle
alloys...so they tend to be far more fragile. Think of it as putting
a spike in a bank to hold your boat. If its sand...its a long walk
home. If its solid dirt..it will hold your boat until you return.

I shoot a lot of military bolt action rifles from many countries. Some
of them have "normal" barrels with oversized bores. So making the
bullets bigger is pretty much required when shooting lead bullets.
When they are much bigger..they dont work as well for the reasons
above. In those cases with a tapered bullet..you may get the front
engraved..but the back is simply skipping along behind the engraved
section. This may or may not shoot very well. If the bullet is small
at the front and big at the ass end..it may very well be turned
slightly sideways as it goes down the barrel and be very very
unbalanced after leaving the barrel.

When you are dealing with spins of 150,000 rpm -200,000 rpm..having an
unbalanced soft bullet is not condusive to good accuracy, let alone
having the bullet break up in flight....shrug

Now if the taper was small at the bottom of the die and big at the
top..we may or may not have a good bullet flight. If its small at the
mouth of the die and big at the ass end..its going to rip itself up as
its being sized, then slightly compressed, expanded at the bottom of
the die, and then ripped yet again as its being pushed back out of the
die. We are talking only a thousanth or so..yes indeed..but a good
bullet is now badly damaged at those RPM ranges and wierd ****
happens.

Gunner

Assuming that you are using the sizer die as designed - pushing the
bullet all the way through it - the sized bullet will be the diameter
of the smallest portion of the die.

Two diameter bullets were not exactly uncommon - paper patched bullets
for example are bore diameter (over the lands) while the paper "patch"
is groove diameter. Most artillery rounds are also bore diameter (over
the lands) with a copper driving ring of groove diameter.

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Mar 4, 8:30*pm, John B. wrote:




Assuming that you are using the sizer die as designed - pushing the
bullet all the way through it - the sized bullet will be the diameter
of the smallest portion of the die.


Cheers,

John B.


That was my thought. I have never done any sizing, but my
understanding was that the bullet went thru the die. As long as that
is the case , taper in the die should not matter.


Dan

wrote in message
...
On Mar 4, 8:38 am, Ed Huntress wrote:


Can you say Sunnen hone?

I can say it. I just can't afford it.

--
Ed Huntress


The used ones are not all that expensive. There is one on Ebay with a
$1200 buy it now, and several more at under $2000 . But they are not
exactly hobby machines. I could probably figure out a use for one
every year or two. The same money could be spent on a vertical band
saw and that would get a lot more use.

Dan
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
True, that.

If you've never operated a Sunnen, it might be hard to understand how useful
one can be. They shine the very best in circumstances that would normally
border on the impossible for the shop---such as sizing small bores with
precision, especially if they're made of hardened materials.

Older models, such as the 1290-D, are not all that expensive. The real
cost is in the mandrel sets.

In this instance, Gunner most likely knows of at least one shop that is so
equipped. If they happen to have the proper sized mandrel, it would take
only a couple minutes for an operator to resize his sizing die. That's the
direction I'd pursue if I was in his position. Attempting to grind such a
small diameter could prove to be rather difficult, especially considering
the lack of quality in the spindles of most small devices. For a swaging
die, finish should be quite good----a tall order from a cheap spindle.
By sharp contrast, a hone would yield a wonderful, round, straight hole.
They're very capable of correcting all manner of errors in bores, and
require no setup. Install the mandrel, turn on the spindle and start
honing.

Harold

Harold

On Mon, 4 Mar 2013 18:21:58 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Mar 4, 8:30*pm, John B. wrote:




Assuming that you are using the sizer die as designed - pushing the
bullet all the way through it - the sized bullet will be the diameter
of the smallest portion of the die.


Cheers,

John B.


That was my thought. I have never done any sizing, but my
understanding was that the bullet went thru the die. As long as that
is the case , taper in the die should not matter.


Dan

Depending on the type of sizer it may have holes in it through which
lube is injected to apply lube as well as size, or it may just be a
sleeve with the correct I.D. But either type always forces the bullet
completely through the sizing die.

--
Cheers,

John B.

In article , John B.
wrote:

On Mon, 04 Mar 2013 11:48:11 -0800, Gunner
wrote:

On Mon, 4 Mar 2013 10:12:53 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Mar 4, 9:47*am, Ed Huntress wrote:


I think he's overly worried about taper. He shouldn't have any
measurable taper over that short stroke. If he does, he has bigger
problems with that lathe.

--
Ed Huntress

I also think he is overly concerned about taper. I think that taper
is a non issue. If the die has a lot of taper, will it make any
difference? The lead will be the size of the smallest section of the
die.


Dan

Taper does indeed make a huge difference in the application. Most
bullets are aprox .001 bigger than bore diameter. Squeezing it into
the bore means it becomes squeezed by the rifling and it tends to
spread in the grooves and be impressed by the lands.

Marlin Microgroove rifling is much shallower..but there are many many
more lands and grooves so they dont protrude as much. If the bullet is
too small, or the bore bigger than "normal"..it tends to not engrave
and spin the bullet properly..but simply be shoved enmass through the
barrel, peeling off bits of lead until it is small enough to be pushed
out the end of the barrel with less than proper spin to keep it
stablized.

"Normal" lands and grooves can be found on barrels that are also
oversize. So while the lands and grooves are sharp and proud..they may
not be big enough in that fat bore..to suitibly grab and control the
bullet and it too..starts cutting off bits and pieces unit its bore
diameter and is pushed out the barrel..with less spin than normal..and
with significant damage. Lead is much much softer than copper/nickle
alloys...so they tend to be far more fragile. Think of it as putting
a spike in a bank to hold your boat. If its sand...its a long walk
home. If its solid dirt..it will hold your boat until you return.

I shoot a lot of military bolt action rifles from many countries. Some
of them have "normal" barrels with oversized bores. So making the
bullets bigger is pretty much required when shooting lead bullets.
When they are much bigger..they dont work as well for the reasons
above. In those cases with a tapered bullet..you may get the front
engraved..but the back is simply skipping along behind the engraved
section. This may or may not shoot very well. If the bullet is small
at the front and big at the ass end..it may very well be turned
slightly sideways as it goes down the barrel and be very very
unbalanced after leaving the barrel.

When you are dealing with spins of 150,000 rpm -200,000 rpm..having an
unbalanced soft bullet is not condusive to good accuracy, let alone
having the bullet break up in flight....shrug

Now if the taper was small at the bottom of the die and big at the
top..we may or may not have a good bullet flight. If its small at the
mouth of the die and big at the ass end..its going to rip itself up as
its being sized, then slightly compressed, expanded at the bottom of
the die, and then ripped yet again as its being pushed back out of the
die. We are talking only a thousanth or so..yes indeed..but a good
bullet is now badly damaged at those RPM ranges and wierd ****
happens.

Gunner

Assuming that you are using the sizer die as designed - pushing the
bullet all the way through it - the sized bullet will be the diameter
of the smallest portion of the die.

Two diameter bullets were not exactly uncommon - paper patched bullets
for example are bore diameter (over the lands) while the paper "patch"
is groove diameter. Most artillery rounds are also bore diameter (over
the lands) with a copper driving ring of groove diameter.

One thing that occurs to me is the Minie Ball design, even though this
isn't a muzzleloader. A hollow tail could be forced into the rifling
grooves by gas pressure, so things need not be so precise.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mini%C3%A9_ball

Joe Gwinn

On 2013-03-04, Gunner wrote:
On Mon, 4 Mar 2013 10:12:53 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Mar 4, 9:47*am, Ed Huntress wrote:


I think he's overly worried about taper. He shouldn't have any
measurable taper over that short stroke. If he does, he has bigger
problems with that lathe.

--
Ed Huntress

I also think he is overly concerned about taper. I think that taper
is a non issue. If the die has a lot of taper, will it make any
difference? The lead will be the size of the smallest section of the
die.


Dan

Taper does indeed make a huge difference in the application. Most
bullets are aprox .001 bigger than bore diameter. Squeezing it into
the bore means it becomes squeezed by the rifling and it tends to
spread in the grooves and be impressed by the lands.

[ ... ]

Now if the taper was small at the bottom of the die and big at the
top..we may or may not have a good bullet flight. If its small at the
mouth of the die and big at the ass end..its going to rip itself up as
its being sized, then slightly compressed, expanded at the bottom of
the die, and then ripped yet again as its being pushed back out of the
die. We are talking only a thousanth or so..yes indeed..but a good
bullet is now badly damaged at those RPM ranges and wierd ****
happens.

So the bullet does not simply pass through the sizing die? (I've
always used jacketed bullets.)

If it did pass all the way though, it would simply take on a
diameter corresponding to the smallest diameter of the die -- no problem.

*However* -- if you use a toolpost grinder to make the bore in the
die, you should not *have* a taper, as long as the bed is straight and
not twisted. Yes, that skinny little stem holding the point to the
grinder might deflect a bit on the first pass, but if you "spark out"
you should have consistent diameter even if the first pass is not that
good.

The main concern with using the toolpost grinder is properly
protecting the ways and other sliding surfaces from the grit. I've so
far used mine *once* (so far) -- but I *will* use it when it is the best
tool for the job.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On 6 Mar 2013 05:49:41 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2013-03-04, Gunner wrote:
On Mon, 4 Mar 2013 10:12:53 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Mar 4, 9:47*am, Ed Huntress wrote:


I think he's overly worried about taper. He shouldn't have any
measurable taper over that short stroke. If he does, he has bigger
problems with that lathe.

--
Ed Huntress

I also think he is overly concerned about taper. I think that taper
is a non issue. If the die has a lot of taper, will it make any
difference? The lead will be the size of the smallest section of the
die.


Dan

Taper does indeed make a huge difference in the application. Most
bullets are aprox .001 bigger than bore diameter. Squeezing it into
the bore means it becomes squeezed by the rifling and it tends to
spread in the grooves and be impressed by the lands.

[ ... ]

Now if the taper was small at the bottom of the die and big at the
top..we may or may not have a good bullet flight. If its small at the
mouth of the die and big at the ass end..its going to rip itself up as
its being sized, then slightly compressed, expanded at the bottom of
the die, and then ripped yet again as its being pushed back out of the
die. We are talking only a thousanth or so..yes indeed..but a good
bullet is now badly damaged at those RPM ranges and wierd ****
happens.

So the bullet does not simply pass through the sizing die? (I've
always used jacketed bullets.)

If it did pass all the way though, it would simply take on a
diameter corresponding to the smallest diameter of the die -- no problem.

*However* -- if you use a toolpost grinder to make the bore in the
die, you should not *have* a taper, as long as the bed is straight and
not twisted. Yes, that skinny little stem holding the point to the
grinder might deflect a bit on the first pass, but if you "spark out"
you should have consistent diameter even if the first pass is not that
good.

The main concern with using the toolpost grinder is properly
protecting the ways and other sliding surfaces from the grit. I've so
far used mine *once* (so far) -- but I *will* use it when it is the best
tool for the job.

Aluminum foil on the ways and chuck. Oiled rags draped around the
cross-slide and compound, if you can't get aluminum foil to cover it
well. Rags are dangerous, however, because of what happens when they
get caught in something moving. But if your stroke is more than a
fraction of an inch, you'll need rags to cover the ways where the
saddle needs to travel.

I've tried oiled newspaper, and it's not as good as the aluminum foil

Then spray the foil with WD-40 or, preferably, LPS. Make sure you've
folded it up on the edges so that, when you take it off, it will hold
any grit.

And don't do it more often than you have to. I'll lap when I can,
rather than grind.

--
Ed Huntress



Enjoy,
DoN.

Ed Huntress fired this volley in
news
I've tried oiled newspaper, and it's not as good as the aluminum foil


I've got some snap-together plastic wiring chase material from a $1.00
bin at SkyCraft (in Orlando) that just happens to be a decent (loose) fit
over the ways of my lathe. The male and female halves are roughly the
same depth, and are a 'telescoping' fit when the snap-grooves are cut
off. They make dandy adjustable way covers, with rags under them at the
bitter ends to handle the small area of travel. They also keep the rags
down and out of 'capture' range, should anything rotating hit the ways.

If one did a lot of grinding on the lathe, I'll bet there's some square
aluminum tube or channel out there in suitable telescoping sizes, and if
one half could be fixed to the ways, and the other to the saddle...

LLoyd

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com fired this volley in
. 3.70:

If one did a lot of grinding on the lathe, I'll bet there's some square
aluminum tube or channel out there in suitable telescoping sizes, and if
one half could be fixed to the ways, and the other to the saddle...



Shoulda said, too... if one does a LOT of grinding on the lathe, there are
always stock bellows way covers available, but they're kind of pricey.
LS

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
...They make dandy adjustable way covers, with rags under them at
the
bitter ends to handle the small area of travel.

LLoyd

sigh

For anyone who cares, this is what "bitter end" really means:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anchor_windlass

Now you can wait with baited breath for me to explain Volatile and
Nimrod.

On Wed, 6 Mar 2013 07:50:31 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
...They make dandy adjustable way covers, with rags under them at
the
bitter ends to handle the small area of travel.

LLoyd

sigh

For anyone who cares, this is what "bitter end" really means:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anchor_windlass

Now you can wait with baited breath for me to explain Volatile and
Nimrod.

I'm waiting with bated breath for you to explain baited breath. Is
that what your breath is like after eating squid sushi? d8-)

--
Ed Huntress

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 6 Mar 2013 07:50:31 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


Now you can wait with baited breath for me to explain Volatile and
Nimrod.

I'm waiting with bated breath for you to explain baited breath. Is
that what your breath is like after eating squid sushi? d8-)
Ed Huntress

I did, you missed it. (A)bated came from "The Merchant of Venice",
along with "Pound of flesh".

"Jim Wilkins" fired this volley in news:kh7g11$7u9$1
@dont-email.me:

I did, you missed it.

He _might_ have 'missed' it, but you misspelled it.

First, it's not "bated" it's "'bated", and second, it's not "baited".
But the hook you just took was...

LLoyd

On Wed, 6 Mar 2013 08:25:09 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 6 Mar 2013 07:50:31 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


Now you can wait with baited breath for me to explain Volatile and
Nimrod.

I'm waiting with bated breath for you to explain baited breath. Is
that what your breath is like after eating squid sushi? d8-)
Ed Huntress

I did, you missed it. (A)bated came from "The Merchant of Venice",

along with "Pound of flesh".

"You would abate the strength of your displeasure"? "Take then thy
bond, take thou thy pound of flesh"?

I don't get the connection.

It still looks like you used the wrong word -- which we all do from
time to time and which I don't even bother to point out, unless it's
funny. This one looked funny. "Baited breath" is a common misuse and
people have been making jokes about the misuse forever.

--
Ed Huntress

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 6 Mar 2013 08:25:09 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
. ..
On Wed, 6 Mar 2013 07:50:31 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


Now you can wait with baited breath for me to explain Volatile and
Nimrod.

I'm waiting with bated breath for you to explain baited breath. Is
that what your breath is like after eating squid sushi? d8-)
Ed Huntress

I did, you missed it. (A)bated came from "The Merchant of Venice",

along with "Pound of flesh".

"You would abate the strength of your displeasure"? "Take then thy
bond, take thou thy pound of flesh"?

I don't get the connection.

It still looks like you used the wrong word -- which we all do from
time to time and which I don't even bother to point out, unless it's
funny. This one looked funny. "Baited breath" is a common misuse and
people have been making jokes about the misuse forever.

--
Ed Huntress


http://shakespeare.mit.edu/merchant/merchant.1.3.html
"With bated breath and whispering humbleness,"

On Wed, 6 Mar 2013 09:34:56 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 6 Mar 2013 08:25:09 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 6 Mar 2013 07:50:31 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


Now you can wait with baited breath for me to explain Volatile and
Nimrod.

I'm waiting with bated breath for you to explain baited breath. Is
that what your breath is like after eating squid sushi? d8-)
Ed Huntress

I did, you missed it. (A)bated came from "The Merchant of Venice",

along with "Pound of flesh".

"You would abate the strength of your displeasure"? "Take then thy
bond, take thou thy pound of flesh"?

I don't get the connection.

It still looks like you used the wrong word -- which we all do from
time to time and which I don't even bother to point out, unless it's
funny. This one looked funny. "Baited breath" is a common misuse and
people have been making jokes about the misuse forever.

--
Ed Huntress


http://shakespeare.mit.edu/merchant/merchant.1.3.html
"With bated breath and whispering humbleness,"

Ok, but it still doesn't clear up the reason you used the expression
"baited breath." I'm still hanging here, waiting to understand it,
with bated breath. g

Is this another obscure literary reference? Or are you baiting us?

--
Ed Huntress

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 6 Mar 2013 09:34:56 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
. ..
On Wed, 6 Mar 2013 08:25:09 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
m...
On Wed, 6 Mar 2013 07:50:31 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


Now you can wait with baited breath for me to explain Volatile
and
Nimrod.

I'm waiting with bated breath for you to explain baited breath.
Is
that what your breath is like after eating squid sushi? d8-)
Ed Huntress

I did, you missed it. (A)bated came from "The Merchant of Venice",

along with "Pound of flesh".

"You would abate the strength of your displeasure"? "Take then thy
bond, take thou thy pound of flesh"?

I don't get the connection.

It still looks like you used the wrong word -- which we all do
from
time to time and which I don't even bother to point out, unless
it's
funny. This one looked funny. "Baited breath" is a common misuse
and
people have been making jokes about the misuse forever.

--
Ed Huntress


http://shakespeare.mit.edu/merchant/merchant.1.3.html
"With bated breath and whispering humbleness,"

Ok, but it still doesn't clear up the reason you used the expression
"baited breath." I'm still hanging here, waiting to understand it,
with bated breath. g

Is this another obscure literary reference? Or are you baiting us?

--
Ed Huntress

You apparently missed the original discussion.

On Wed, 6 Mar 2013 09:55:23 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 6 Mar 2013 09:34:56 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 6 Mar 2013 08:25:09 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
om...
On Wed, 6 Mar 2013 07:50:31 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


Now you can wait with baited breath for me to explain Volatile
and
Nimrod.

I'm waiting with bated breath for you to explain baited breath.
Is
that what your breath is like after eating squid sushi? d8-)
Ed Huntress

I did, you missed it. (A)bated came from "The Merchant of Venice",

along with "Pound of flesh".

"You would abate the strength of your displeasure"? "Take then thy
bond, take thou thy pound of flesh"?

I don't get the connection.

It still looks like you used the wrong word -- which we all do
from
time to time and which I don't even bother to point out, unless
it's
funny. This one looked funny. "Baited breath" is a common misuse
and
people have been making jokes about the misuse forever.

--
Ed Huntress


http://shakespeare.mit.edu/merchant/merchant.1.3.html
"With bated breath and whispering humbleness,"

Ok, but it still doesn't clear up the reason you used the expression
"baited breath." I'm still hanging here, waiting to understand it,
with bated breath. g

Is this another obscure literary reference? Or are you baiting us?

--
Ed Huntress

You apparently missed the original discussion.

That must be it. But "baited breath" is still funny.

--
Ed Huntress

On Mar 4, 7:21*pm, " wrote:
On Mar 4, 8:30*pm, John B. wrote:



Assuming that you are using the sizer die as designed - pushing the
bullet all the way through it - the sized bullet will be the diameter
of the smallest portion of the die.

Cheers,

John B.

That was my thought. *I have never done any sizing, but my
understanding was that the bullet went thru the die. *As long as that
is the case , taper in the die should not matter.

Dan

Some sizers are set up that way(Star) for push-through, but most are a
down and up thing, there's a center pin that ejects the bullet on the
up stroke. The Star is for blunt handgun bullets where the next one
pushes the last one out the bottom, were used for high-production
needs, like cops' practice ammo.. Used with a spire-point rifle
bullet design, you'd end up with dubbed-off points and maybe messed-up
bases. Not a good thing. Can't seat gas checks with a Star, either,
bullets are pushed point-first.. And you still need a lead-in taper
in the die unless you like off-center shaved-off bullets. Current
production dies are made that way, the mouth of the die is bigger than
the center, the taper is about 1 bullet dia. in length. Obviously,
the bullet has to get by the taper part and get pushed down to the
straight section. Old Ideal and Lyman dies had an internal step for
the sizing part and were notorious for off-center sizing. Need to
swage, not shear.

Stan

On Wed, 06 Mar 2013 10:21:17 -0500, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Wed, 6 Mar 2013 09:55:23 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
. ..
On Wed, 6 Mar 2013 09:34:56 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
m...
On Wed, 6 Mar 2013 08:25:09 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
news:clfej8ho0ptambq4a96r9gue67g5qa220v@4ax. com...
On Wed, 6 Mar 2013 07:50:31 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


Now you can wait with baited breath for me to explain Volatile
and
Nimrod.

I'm waiting with bated breath for you to explain baited breath.
Is
that what your breath is like after eating squid sushi? d8-)
Ed Huntress

I did, you missed it. (A)bated came from "The Merchant of Venice",

along with "Pound of flesh".

"You would abate the strength of your displeasure"? "Take then thy
bond, take thou thy pound of flesh"?

I don't get the connection.

It still looks like you used the wrong word -- which we all do
from
time to time and which I don't even bother to point out, unless
it's
funny. This one looked funny. "Baited breath" is a common misuse
and
people have been making jokes about the misuse forever.

--
Ed Huntress


http://shakespeare.mit.edu/merchant/merchant.1.3.html
"With bated breath and whispering humbleness,"

Ok, but it still doesn't clear up the reason you used the expression
"baited breath." I'm still hanging here, waiting to understand it,
with bated breath. g

Is this another obscure literary reference? Or are you baiting us?

--
Ed Huntress

You apparently missed the original discussion.

That must be it. But "baited breath" is still funny.


My Dad used to use, and I some times use the phrase " I shall place a
herring in my mouth and wait with baited breath!". Some folks get
it, some don't. g
Bob
rgentryatozdotnet

On Tue, 05 Mar 2013 08:30:36 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Mon, 04 Mar 2013 11:48:11 -0800, Gunner
wrote:

On Mon, 4 Mar 2013 10:12:53 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Mar 4, 9:47*am, Ed Huntress wrote:


I think he's overly worried about taper. He shouldn't have any
measurable taper over that short stroke. If he does, he has bigger
problems with that lathe.

--
Ed Huntress

I also think he is overly concerned about taper. I think that taper
is a non issue. If the die has a lot of taper, will it make any
difference? The lead will be the size of the smallest section of the
die.


Dan

Taper does indeed make a huge difference in the application. Most
bullets are aprox .001 bigger than bore diameter. Squeezing it into
the bore means it becomes squeezed by the rifling and it tends to
spread in the grooves and be impressed by the lands.

Marlin Microgroove rifling is much shallower..but there are many many
more lands and grooves so they dont protrude as much. If the bullet is
too small, or the bore bigger than "normal"..it tends to not engrave
and spin the bullet properly..but simply be shoved enmass through the
barrel, peeling off bits of lead until it is small enough to be pushed
out the end of the barrel with less than proper spin to keep it
stablized.

"Normal" lands and grooves can be found on barrels that are also
oversize. So while the lands and grooves are sharp and proud..they may
not be big enough in that fat bore..to suitibly grab and control the
bullet and it too..starts cutting off bits and pieces unit its bore
diameter and is pushed out the barrel..with less spin than normal..and
with significant damage. Lead is much much softer than copper/nickle
alloys...so they tend to be far more fragile. Think of it as putting
a spike in a bank to hold your boat. If its sand...its a long walk
home. If its solid dirt..it will hold your boat until you return.

I shoot a lot of military bolt action rifles from many countries. Some
of them have "normal" barrels with oversized bores. So making the
bullets bigger is pretty much required when shooting lead bullets.
When they are much bigger..they dont work as well for the reasons
above. In those cases with a tapered bullet..you may get the front
engraved..but the back is simply skipping along behind the engraved
section. This may or may not shoot very well. If the bullet is small
at the front and big at the ass end..it may very well be turned
slightly sideways as it goes down the barrel and be very very
unbalanced after leaving the barrel.

When you are dealing with spins of 150,000 rpm -200,000 rpm..having an
unbalanced soft bullet is not condusive to good accuracy, let alone
having the bullet break up in flight....shrug

Now if the taper was small at the bottom of the die and big at the
top..we may or may not have a good bullet flight. If its small at the
mouth of the die and big at the ass end..its going to rip itself up as
its being sized, then slightly compressed, expanded at the bottom of
the die, and then ripped yet again as its being pushed back out of the
die. We are talking only a thousanth or so..yes indeed..but a good
bullet is now badly damaged at those RPM ranges and wierd ****
happens.

Gunner

Assuming that you are using the sizer die as designed - pushing the
bullet all the way through it - the sized bullet will be the diameter
of the smallest portion of the die.

Two diameter bullets were not exactly uncommon - paper patched bullets
for example are bore diameter (over the lands) while the paper "patch"
is groove diameter. Most artillery rounds are also bore diameter (over
the lands) with a copper driving ring of groove diameter.

correct but the paper patch keeps the round perpendicular to the
barrel axis, as do the driving bands


The methodology of the left has always been:

1. Lie
2. Repeat the lie as many times as possible
3. Have as many people repeat the lie as often as possible
4. Eventually, the uninformed believe the lie
5. The lie will then be made into some form oflaw
6. Then everyone must conform to the lie

On Mon, 4 Mar 2013 18:21:58 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Mar 4, 8:30*pm, John B. wrote:




Assuming that you are using the sizer die as designed - pushing the
bullet all the way through it - the sized bullet will be the diameter
of the smallest portion of the die.


Cheers,

John B.


That was my thought. I have never done any sizing, but my
understanding was that the bullet went thru the die. As long as that
is the case , taper in the die should not matter.


Dan

On the Star sizer..the bullet is pushed through. On most other
types..the bullet is pushed into the die against an adjustable depth
stop..and then pushed back out the way it went in.

Gunner

The methodology of the left has always been:

1. Lie
2. Repeat the lie as many times as possible
3. Have as many people repeat the lie as often as possible
4. Eventually, the uninformed believe the lie
5. The lie will then be made into some form oflaw
6. Then everyone must conform to the lie

On Tue, 05 Mar 2013 17:42:10 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Mon, 4 Mar 2013 18:21:58 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Mar 4, 8:30*pm, John B. wrote:




Assuming that you are using the sizer die as designed - pushing the
bullet all the way through it - the sized bullet will be the diameter
of the smallest portion of the die.


Cheers,

John B.


That was my thought. I have never done any sizing, but my
understanding was that the bullet went thru the die. As long as that
is the case , taper in the die should not matter.


Dan

Depending on the type of sizer it may have holes in it through which
lube is injected to apply lube as well as size, or it may just be a
sleeve with the correct I.D. But either type always forces the bullet
completely through the sizing die.

Only half true. It does "inject" lube to fill the grooves..but few
lubers push the bullet "through"

Gunner

The methodology of the left has always been:

1. Lie
2. Repeat the lie as many times as possible
3. Have as many people repeat the lie as often as possible
4. Eventually, the uninformed believe the lie
5. The lie will then be made into some form oflaw
6. Then everyone must conform to the lie

On Tue, 05 Mar 2013 10:21:57 -0500, Joe Gwinn
wrote:

In article , John B.
wrote:

On Mon, 04 Mar 2013 11:48:11 -0800, Gunner
wrote:

On Mon, 4 Mar 2013 10:12:53 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Mar 4, 9:47*am, Ed Huntress wrote:


I think he's overly worried about taper. He shouldn't have any
measurable taper over that short stroke. If he does, he has bigger
problems with that lathe.

--
Ed Huntress

I also think he is overly concerned about taper. I think that taper
is a non issue. If the die has a lot of taper, will it make any
difference? The lead will be the size of the smallest section of the
die.


Dan

Taper does indeed make a huge difference in the application. Most
bullets are aprox .001 bigger than bore diameter. Squeezing it into
the bore means it becomes squeezed by the rifling and it tends to
spread in the grooves and be impressed by the lands.

Marlin Microgroove rifling is much shallower..but there are many many
more lands and grooves so they dont protrude as much. If the bullet is
too small, or the bore bigger than "normal"..it tends to not engrave
and spin the bullet properly..but simply be shoved enmass through the
barrel, peeling off bits of lead until it is small enough to be pushed
out the end of the barrel with less than proper spin to keep it
stablized.

"Normal" lands and grooves can be found on barrels that are also
oversize. So while the lands and grooves are sharp and proud..they may
not be big enough in that fat bore..to suitibly grab and control the
bullet and it too..starts cutting off bits and pieces unit its bore
diameter and is pushed out the barrel..with less spin than normal..and
with significant damage. Lead is much much softer than copper/nickle
alloys...so they tend to be far more fragile. Think of it as putting
a spike in a bank to hold your boat. If its sand...its a long walk
home. If its solid dirt..it will hold your boat until you return.

I shoot a lot of military bolt action rifles from many countries. Some
of them have "normal" barrels with oversized bores. So making the
bullets bigger is pretty much required when shooting lead bullets.
When they are much bigger..they dont work as well for the reasons
above. In those cases with a tapered bullet..you may get the front
engraved..but the back is simply skipping along behind the engraved
section. This may or may not shoot very well. If the bullet is small
at the front and big at the ass end..it may very well be turned
slightly sideways as it goes down the barrel and be very very
unbalanced after leaving the barrel.

When you are dealing with spins of 150,000 rpm -200,000 rpm..having an
unbalanced soft bullet is not condusive to good accuracy, let alone
having the bullet break up in flight....shrug

Now if the taper was small at the bottom of the die and big at the
top..we may or may not have a good bullet flight. If its small at the
mouth of the die and big at the ass end..its going to rip itself up as
its being sized, then slightly compressed, expanded at the bottom of
the die, and then ripped yet again as its being pushed back out of the
die. We are talking only a thousanth or so..yes indeed..but a good
bullet is now badly damaged at those RPM ranges and wierd ****
happens.

Gunner

Assuming that you are using the sizer die as designed - pushing the
bullet all the way through it - the sized bullet will be the diameter
of the smallest portion of the die.

Two diameter bullets were not exactly uncommon - paper patched bullets
for example are bore diameter (over the lands) while the paper "patch"
is groove diameter. Most artillery rounds are also bore diameter (over
the lands) with a copper driving ring of groove diameter.

One thing that occurs to me is the Minie Ball design, even though this
isn't a muzzleloader. A hollow tail could be forced into the rifling
grooves by gas pressure, so things need not be so precise.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mini%C3%A9_ball

Joe Gwinn

The hollow base wadcutter works the same way. However....hollow based
bullets are very speed/pressure limited. If they are fired with too
much pressure behind it..as they exit the bore..the remaining gas
pressure behind it will blow out the hollow base into a balloon shape
which generally will destroy the bullet immediatly or in flight due to
uneven swelling and the sudden imbalance.


The methodology of the left has always been:

1. Lie
2. Repeat the lie as many times as possible
3. Have as many people repeat the lie as often as possible
4. Eventually, the uninformed believe the lie
5. The lie will then be made into some form oflaw
6. Then everyone must conform to the lie

On Sat, 09 Mar 2013 19:11:01 -0800, Gunner
wrote:

On Tue, 05 Mar 2013 10:21:57 -0500, Joe Gwinn
wrote:

In article , John B.
wrote:

On Mon, 04 Mar 2013 11:48:11 -0800, Gunner
wrote:

On Mon, 4 Mar 2013 10:12:53 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Mar 4, 9:47*am, Ed Huntress wrote:


I think he's overly worried about taper. He shouldn't have any
measurable taper over that short stroke. If he does, he has bigger
problems with that lathe.

--
Ed Huntress

I also think he is overly concerned about taper. I think that taper
is a non issue. If the die has a lot of taper, will it make any
difference? The lead will be the size of the smallest section of the
die.


Dan

Taper does indeed make a huge difference in the application. Most
bullets are aprox .001 bigger than bore diameter. Squeezing it into
the bore means it becomes squeezed by the rifling and it tends to
spread in the grooves and be impressed by the lands.

Marlin Microgroove rifling is much shallower..but there are many many
more lands and grooves so they dont protrude as much. If the bullet is
too small, or the bore bigger than "normal"..it tends to not engrave
and spin the bullet properly..but simply be shoved enmass through the
barrel, peeling off bits of lead until it is small enough to be pushed
out the end of the barrel with less than proper spin to keep it
stablized.

"Normal" lands and grooves can be found on barrels that are also
oversize. So while the lands and grooves are sharp and proud..they may
not be big enough in that fat bore..to suitibly grab and control the
bullet and it too..starts cutting off bits and pieces unit its bore
diameter and is pushed out the barrel..with less spin than normal..and
with significant damage. Lead is much much softer than copper/nickle
alloys...so they tend to be far more fragile. Think of it as putting
a spike in a bank to hold your boat. If its sand...its a long walk
home. If its solid dirt..it will hold your boat until you return.

I shoot a lot of military bolt action rifles from many countries. Some
of them have "normal" barrels with oversized bores. So making the
bullets bigger is pretty much required when shooting lead bullets.
When they are much bigger..they dont work as well for the reasons
above. In those cases with a tapered bullet..you may get the front
engraved..but the back is simply skipping along behind the engraved
section. This may or may not shoot very well. If the bullet is small
at the front and big at the ass end..it may very well be turned
slightly sideways as it goes down the barrel and be very very
unbalanced after leaving the barrel.

When you are dealing with spins of 150,000 rpm -200,000 rpm..having an
unbalanced soft bullet is not condusive to good accuracy, let alone
having the bullet break up in flight....shrug

Now if the taper was small at the bottom of the die and big at the
top..we may or may not have a good bullet flight. If its small at the
mouth of the die and big at the ass end..its going to rip itself up as
its being sized, then slightly compressed, expanded at the bottom of
the die, and then ripped yet again as its being pushed back out of the
die. We are talking only a thousanth or so..yes indeed..but a good
bullet is now badly damaged at those RPM ranges and wierd ****
happens.

Gunner

Assuming that you are using the sizer die as designed - pushing the
bullet all the way through it - the sized bullet will be the diameter
of the smallest portion of the die.

Two diameter bullets were not exactly uncommon - paper patched bullets
for example are bore diameter (over the lands) while the paper "patch"
is groove diameter. Most artillery rounds are also bore diameter (over
the lands) with a copper driving ring of groove diameter.

One thing that occurs to me is the Minie Ball design, even though this
isn't a muzzleloader. A hollow tail could be forced into the rifling
grooves by gas pressure, so things need not be so precise.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mini%C3%A9_ball

Joe Gwinn

The hollow base wadcutter works the same way. However....hollow based
bullets are very speed/pressure limited. If they are fired with too
much pressure behind it..as they exit the bore..the remaining gas
pressure behind it will blow out the hollow base into a balloon shape
which generally will destroy the bullet immediatly or in flight due to
uneven swelling and the sudden imbalance.

But hollow base wad cutters are designed as a target bullet although a
mate used to load 357 mag rounds with wad cutters seated backwards. He
reckoned that they were the cat's meow across a bar room table :-)

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sun, 10 Mar 2013 18:50:04 +0700, J.B.Slocomb
wrote:

On Sat, 09 Mar 2013 19:11:01 -0800, Gunner
wrote:

On Tue, 05 Mar 2013 10:21:57 -0500, Joe Gwinn
wrote:

In article , John B.
wrote:

On Mon, 04 Mar 2013 11:48:11 -0800, Gunner
wrote:

On Mon, 4 Mar 2013 10:12:53 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Mar 4, 9:47*am, Ed Huntress wrote:


I think he's overly worried about taper. He shouldn't have any
measurable taper over that short stroke. If he does, he has bigger
problems with that lathe.

--
Ed Huntress

I also think he is overly concerned about taper. I think that taper
is a non issue. If the die has a lot of taper, will it make any
difference? The lead will be the size of the smallest section of the
die.


Dan

Taper does indeed make a huge difference in the application. Most
bullets are aprox .001 bigger than bore diameter. Squeezing it into
the bore means it becomes squeezed by the rifling and it tends to
spread in the grooves and be impressed by the lands.

Marlin Microgroove rifling is much shallower..but there are many many
more lands and grooves so they dont protrude as much. If the bullet is
too small, or the bore bigger than "normal"..it tends to not engrave
and spin the bullet properly..but simply be shoved enmass through the
barrel, peeling off bits of lead until it is small enough to be pushed
out the end of the barrel with less than proper spin to keep it
stablized.

"Normal" lands and grooves can be found on barrels that are also
oversize. So while the lands and grooves are sharp and proud..they may
not be big enough in that fat bore..to suitibly grab and control the
bullet and it too..starts cutting off bits and pieces unit its bore
diameter and is pushed out the barrel..with less spin than normal..and
with significant damage. Lead is much much softer than copper/nickle
alloys...so they tend to be far more fragile. Think of it as putting
a spike in a bank to hold your boat. If its sand...its a long walk
home. If its solid dirt..it will hold your boat until you return.

I shoot a lot of military bolt action rifles from many countries. Some
of them have "normal" barrels with oversized bores. So making the
bullets bigger is pretty much required when shooting lead bullets.
When they are much bigger..they dont work as well for the reasons
above. In those cases with a tapered bullet..you may get the front
engraved..but the back is simply skipping along behind the engraved
section. This may or may not shoot very well. If the bullet is small
at the front and big at the ass end..it may very well be turned
slightly sideways as it goes down the barrel and be very very
unbalanced after leaving the barrel.

When you are dealing with spins of 150,000 rpm -200,000 rpm..having an
unbalanced soft bullet is not condusive to good accuracy, let alone
having the bullet break up in flight....shrug

Now if the taper was small at the bottom of the die and big at the
top..we may or may not have a good bullet flight. If its small at the
mouth of the die and big at the ass end..its going to rip itself up as
its being sized, then slightly compressed, expanded at the bottom of
the die, and then ripped yet again as its being pushed back out of the
die. We are talking only a thousanth or so..yes indeed..but a good
bullet is now badly damaged at those RPM ranges and wierd ****
happens.

Gunner

Assuming that you are using the sizer die as designed - pushing the
bullet all the way through it - the sized bullet will be the diameter
of the smallest portion of the die.

Two diameter bullets were not exactly uncommon - paper patched bullets
for example are bore diameter (over the lands) while the paper "patch"
is groove diameter. Most artillery rounds are also bore diameter (over
the lands) with a copper driving ring of groove diameter.

One thing that occurs to me is the Minie Ball design, even though this
isn't a muzzleloader. A hollow tail could be forced into the rifling
grooves by gas pressure, so things need not be so precise.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mini%C3%A9_ball

Joe Gwinn

The hollow base wadcutter works the same way. However....hollow based
bullets are very speed/pressure limited. If they are fired with too
much pressure behind it..as they exit the bore..the remaining gas
pressure behind it will blow out the hollow base into a balloon shape
which generally will destroy the bullet immediatly or in flight due to
uneven swelling and the sudden imbalance.

But hollow base wad cutters are designed as a target bullet although a
mate used to load 357 mag rounds with wad cutters seated backwards. He
reckoned that they were the cat's meow across a bar room table :-)

Indeed, they do work pretty damned good at this. Up to about 750 fps
Particularly out of a belly gun with a short barrel. Ive carried them
for years until they came out with Nyclads. Works pretty damned well
in fact.

Gunner

The methodology of the left has always been:

1. Lie
2. Repeat the lie as many times as possible
3. Have as many people repeat the lie as often as possible
4. Eventually, the uninformed believe the lie
5. The lie will then be made into some form oflaw
6. Then everyone must conform to the lie