I have a lawnmower and a snowblower, both from Honda, and both are hard
to start at the beginning of their season. The lawnmower is the worst
offender, by far, so I'll focus on it.

I would always get the mower going, but it could take all day the first
time. After that initial difficult start, starting was reasonably easy
for the rest of the season.

I have heard various theories on why this is so:

1. Gas varnished up over the winter. I took the carb apart - clean as
a whistle. Nor did gas stabilizer make any difference.

2. Water (from condensation) in the gas. Hmm, hard to do with the 10%
alcohol in all gas available these days.

3. Volatiles evaporating from the gas in the tank over the winter.
Also, various stories saying that winter gas and summer gas are
different, the difference being how volatile the gas is, with winter
needing more volatile gas than summer. Hmm, this could be at least part
of an answer.

So, this year, when I first tried to start the lawnmower for the summer,
had the usual problems. Tried the usual dodges, like leaving the mower
out in the sun to warm up, and putting fresh gas in the tank, but no go.

Volatiles? Ether! So, I gave it a squirt of starting fluid.

Started right up on the first try, and subsequent starts were of normal
difficulty, probably because all the old gas was by then flushed out of
the carb.

So, theory 3 seems to be correct.

And a dash of Naptha in the gas may do the same.


Joe Gwinn

Joseph Gwinn wrote:

I have a lawnmower and a snowblower, both from Honda, and both are hard
to start at the beginning of their season. The lawnmower is the worst
offender, by far, so I'll focus on it.

I would always get the mower going, but it could take all day the first
time. After that initial difficult start, starting was reasonably easy
for the rest of the season.

I have heard various theories on why this is so:

1. Gas varnished up over the winter. I took the carb apart - clean as
a whistle. Nor did gas stabilizer make any difference.

2. Water (from condensation) in the gas. Hmm, hard to do with the 10%
alcohol in all gas available these days.

3. Volatiles evaporating from the gas in the tank over the winter.
Also, various stories saying that winter gas and summer gas are
different, the difference being how volatile the gas is, with winter
needing more volatile gas than summer. Hmm, this could be at least part
of an answer.

So, this year, when I first tried to start the lawnmower for the summer,
had the usual problems. Tried the usual dodges, like leaving the mower
out in the sun to warm up, and putting fresh gas in the tank, but no go.

Volatiles? Ether! So, I gave it a squirt of starting fluid.

Started right up on the first try, and subsequent starts were of normal
difficulty, probably because all the old gas was by then flushed out of
the carb.

So, theory 3 seems to be correct.

And a dash of Naptha in the gas may do the same.

Joe Gwinn

Stabil in all gas stocks, run dry at the end of the season, a hefty dose
of B12 fuel system cleaner in the first fill of the season and as you
noted, a shot of ether on the first start of the season.

On Sat, 07 May 2011 19:50:31 -0400, Joseph Gwinn
wrote:

I have a lawnmower and a snowblower, both from Honda, and both are hard
to start at the beginning of their season. The lawnmower is the worst
offender, by far, so I'll focus on it.

The redneck would ask "Where yew at?"

Have you tried using non-ethanol premium gas in those? I've heard
that the ethanol attracts moisture and can cause problems.

And, reading the manual, you'd think that 3 pumps on the primer bulb
would charge the carb. Think again. I crank that puppy 30 times
(briggs mower) before attempting to start it and it goes on the first
pull every time.

My Honda 190 pressure washer goes on the third pull after the winter
layup, um, when I remember to turn the switch on.

I'm still using ethanol/gas and having no problems whatsoever with any
of my beasties after 5 months of rain and cold in Oregon. I usually
fill up at the local Fred Meyer grocery store's gas station. They run
a tanker in there a couple/three times a week, so I know it's fresh
gas. I lost a couple MPG when Oregon switched to ethanol blend,
damnit. What a loser fuel _that_ is...

--
The spread of evil is the symptom of a vacuum. whenever evil
wins, it is only by default: by the moral failure of those
who evade the fact that there can be no compromise on basic
principles. -- Ayn Rand

On May 7, 5:50*pm, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
I have a lawnmower and a snowblower, both from Honda, and both are hard
to start at the beginning of their season. *The lawnmower is the worst
offender, by far, so I'll focus on it.

I would always get the mower going, but it could take all day the first
time. *After that initial difficult start, starting was reasonably easy
for the rest of the season.

I have heard various theories on why this is so:

1. *Gas varnished up over the winter. *I took the carb apart - clean as
a whistle. *Nor did gas stabilizer make any difference.

2. *Water (from condensation) in the gas. *Hmm, hard to do with the 10%
alcohol in all gas available these days.

3. Volatiles evaporating from the gas in the tank over the winter. *
Also, various stories saying that winter gas and summer gas are
different, the difference being how volatile the gas is, with winter
needing more volatile gas than summer. *Hmm, this could be at least part
of an answer.

So, this year, when I first tried to start the lawnmower for the summer,
had the usual problems. *Tried the usual dodges, like leaving the mower
out in the sun to warm up, and putting fresh gas in the tank, but no go.

Volatiles? *Ether! *So, I gave it a squirt of starting fluid. *

Started right up on the first try, and subsequent starts were of normal
difficulty, probably because all the old gas was by then flushed out of
the carb.

So, theory 3 seems to be correct.

And a dash of Naptha in the gas may do the same.

Joe Gwinn

Ran the gas out of mine completely last fall, got some fresh 91 octane
last week, filled the tank, it fired off in three pulls, needed
another pull to keep going. Has a gravity feed tank. I've found 91
octane is needed with the alcohol contaminated gas for it to chop
through the heavier weeds, otherwise it stalls. Difference in
performance is quite noticiable. Briggs engine, about 25 years old.
In the past, if I left gas in it, even if the float bowl was left dry
I'd have to disassemble and hit all the parts with carb cleaner, then
it would run. I also think the alcohol is the reason they're sticking
6 hp engines on the same mowers they used to put 3.5 hp engines. That
and CA smog specs. Either that or the horses have shrunk down.

Stan

In article ,
Larry Jaques wrote:

On Sat, 07 May 2011 19:50:31 -0400, Joseph Gwinn
wrote:

I have a lawnmower and a snowblower, both from Honda, and both are hard
to start at the beginning of their season. The lawnmower is the worst
offender, by far, so I'll focus on it.

The redneck would ask "Where yew at?"

Boston, MA area.


Have you tried using non-ethanol premium gas in those? I've heard
that the ethanol attracts moisture and can cause problems.

No non-ethanol gas available in local gas stations. I suppose I could
go to a marina, but that's pretty far.

The problem is diurnal changes in temperature pulling moist air into the
gas tank or can, where the moisture condenses into water. We used
DryGas (100% methyl alcohol) to absorb the water and allow it to go
through the engine without problems.


And, reading the manual, you'd think that 3 pumps on the primer bulb
would charge the carb. Think again. I crank that puppy 30 times
(briggs mower) before attempting to start it and it goes on the first
pull every time.

No bulb to pump on these engines.


My Honda 190 pressure washer goes on the third pull after the winter
layup, um, when I remember to turn the switch on.

I'm still using ethanol/gas and having no problems whatsoever with any
of my beasties after 5 months of rain and cold in Oregon. I usually
fill up at the local Fred Meyer grocery store's gas station. They run
a tanker in there a couple/three times a week, so I know it's fresh
gas. I lost a couple MPG when Oregon switched to ethanol blend,
damnit. What a loser fuel _that_ is...

Gasohol costs at least as much energy (and oil) to make as the gasoline
it replaces, so the environmental benefit is unobvious. Making the
alcohol uses about 1/4 to 1/3 of the corn crop, thus raising food prices
worldwide. But someone is making money on this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel

Joe Gwinn

In article .com,
"Pete C." wrote:

Joseph Gwinn wrote:

I have a lawnmower and a snowblower, both from Honda, and both are hard
to start at the beginning of their season. The lawnmower is the worst
offender, by far, so I'll focus on it.

I would always get the mower going, but it could take all day the first
time. After that initial difficult start, starting was reasonably easy
for the rest of the season.

I have heard various theories on why this is so:

1. Gas varnished up over the winter. I took the carb apart - clean as
a whistle. Nor did gas stabilizer make any difference.

2. Water (from condensation) in the gas. Hmm, hard to do with the 10%
alcohol in all gas available these days.

3. Volatiles evaporating from the gas in the tank over the winter.
Also, various stories saying that winter gas and summer gas are
different, the difference being how volatile the gas is, with winter
needing more volatile gas than summer. Hmm, this could be at least part
of an answer.

So, this year, when I first tried to start the lawnmower for the summer,
had the usual problems. Tried the usual dodges, like leaving the mower
out in the sun to warm up, and putting fresh gas in the tank, but no go.

Volatiles? Ether! So, I gave it a squirt of starting fluid.

Started right up on the first try, and subsequent starts were of normal
difficulty, probably because all the old gas was by then flushed out of
the carb.

So, theory 3 seems to be correct.

And a dash of Naptha in the gas may do the same.

Joe Gwinn

Stabil in all gas stocks, run dry at the end of the season, a hefty dose
of B12 fuel system cleaner in the first fill of the season and as you
noted, a shot of ether on the first start of the season.

I've tried many of these things, but have discovered that what matters
is the shot of ether.

I suppose that if one runs the engine dry, then fresh new gas (with all
its volatile components still there) will get to the carb first, with no
old stuff in the way.

Joe Gwinn

Ed Huntress wrote:
"Joseph wrote in message
...

(...)

That should certainly work, but the squirt of ether from an aerosol can
seems easier, and is needed once per season.

It sounds like you have it licked. Whatever works, when it comes to small
engines.

I find that any 2 stroke motor (found in chainsaws and weed-wackers
for example) start *much* more easily when I (very carefully!) warm
it's cylinder casting with a small propane torch before pulling the
starter cord.

Normally, I stop warming when the casting is detectably warm to the
touch, probably ~ 100 - 150 F.

It makes the 'nearly impossible' easy.

--Winston -- Keeps an extinguisher handy, too.

Joseph Gwinn wrote:

Gasohol costs at least as much energy (and oil) to make as the gasoline
it replaces, so the environmental benefit is unobvious. Making the
alcohol uses about 1/4 to 1/3 of the corn crop, thus raising food prices
worldwide. But someone is making money on this.

Al Gore, of course. But the recruits to the Church of Warmingism don't
care about facts, just obeying The Faith.

Cheers!
Rich

In article ,
Winston wrote:

Ed Huntress wrote:
"Joseph wrote in message
...

(...)

That should certainly work, but the squirt of ether from an aerosol can
seems easier, and is needed once per season.

It sounds like you have it licked. Whatever works, when it comes to small
engines.

I find that any 2 stroke motor (found in chainsaws and weed-wackers
for example) start *much* more easily when I (very carefully!) warm
it's cylinder casting with a small propane torch before pulling the
starter cord.

Normally, I stop warming when the casting is detectably warm to the
touch, probably ~ 100 - 150 F.

It makes the 'nearly impossible' easy.

--Winston -- Keeps an extinguisher handy, too.

Or use a heat gun?

This is further support for the theory that the issue is the evaporation
of volatile components of the gas.

Joe Gwinn

Joseph Gwinn wrote:
In ,
wrote:

(...)

Normally, I stop warming when the casting is detectably warm to the
touch, probably ~ 100 - 150 F.

It makes the 'nearly impossible' easy.

--Winston-- Keeps an extinguisher handy, too.

Or use a heat gun?

Much safer. Thanks!

This is further support for the theory that the issue is the evaporation
of volatile components of the gas.

That is what I was thinking. I remembered the bad old days of
carburated cars, when winter starts were difficult and summer
starts were relatively easy. I envisioned raw gas puddling in
the cylinder vs. gas vapor doing the 'ignition thing'.

--Winston

"Winston" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:
"Joseph wrote in message
...

(...)

That should certainly work, but the squirt of ether from an aerosol can
seems easier, and is needed once per season.

It sounds like you have it licked. Whatever works, when it comes to small
engines.

I find that any 2 stroke motor (found in chainsaws and weed-wackers
for example) start *much* more easily when I (very carefully!) warm
it's cylinder casting with a small propane torch before pulling the
starter cord.

Normally, I stop warming when the casting is detectably warm to the
touch, probably ~ 100 - 150 F.

It makes the 'nearly impossible' easy.

--Winston -- Keeps an extinguisher handy, too.

Holy cow. You get this week's "What, Me Worry?" award. g You're in a class
with my cousin (now deceased, but for other reasons). He was in the First
Marine Division in Laos and Vietnam, and he used to tell how he heated his
coffee by burning a wad of C4.

I guess it burns nicely, but I'm not likely ever to find out, first-hand.

--
Ed Huntress

"Winston" wrote in message
...
Joseph Gwinn wrote:
In ,
wrote:

(...)

Normally, I stop warming when the casting is detectably warm to the
touch, probably ~ 100 - 150 F.

It makes the 'nearly impossible' easy.

--Winston-- Keeps an extinguisher handy, too.

Or use a heat gun?

Much safer. Thanks!

This is further support for the theory that the issue is the evaporation
of volatile components of the gas.

That is what I was thinking. I remembered the bad old days of
carburated cars, when winter starts were difficult and summer
starts were relatively easy. I envisioned raw gas puddling in
the cylinder vs. gas vapor doing the 'ignition thing'.

--Winston

Mostly it just condensed on the cylinder walls and stripped the oil off of
them, and then ran down into the crankcase. It kept the lubricating oil
companies in business.

--
Ed Huntress

Ed Huntress wrote:
wrote in message
...
Joseph Gwinn wrote:
In ,
wrote:

(...)

Normally, I stop warming when the casting is detectably warm to the
touch, probably ~ 100 - 150 F.

It makes the 'nearly impossible' easy.

--Winston-- Keeps an extinguisher handy, too.

Or use a heat gun?

Much safer. Thanks!

This is further support for the theory that the issue is the evaporation
of volatile components of the gas.

That is what I was thinking. I remembered the bad old days of
carburated cars, when winter starts were difficult and summer
starts were relatively easy. I envisioned raw gas puddling in
the cylinder vs. gas vapor doing the 'ignition thing'.

--Winston

Mostly it just condensed on the cylinder walls and stripped the oil off of
them, and then ran down into the crankcase. It kept the lubricating oil
companies in business.

Ouch!

A good friend of mine spent time helping to build the
Trans Alaska Pipeline. He did oil changes on the heavy
equipment.

While it was running.

--Winston

On Sun, 08 May 2011 12:45:14 -0400, Joseph Gwinn
wrote:

In article ,
Larry Jaques wrote:

On Sat, 07 May 2011 19:50:31 -0400, Joseph Gwinn
wrote:

I have a lawnmower and a snowblower, both from Honda, and both are hard
to start at the beginning of their season. The lawnmower is the worst
offender, by far, so I'll focus on it.

The redneck would ask "Where yew at?"

Boston, MA area.

Have you tried using non-ethanol premium gas in those? I've heard
that the ethanol attracts moisture and can cause problems.

No non-ethanol gas available in local gas stations. I suppose I could

Weird! Pure-Gas doesn't show it in the list, either.


go to a marina, but that's pretty far.

Yeah, try the marina or the smaller airports. I doubt they contaminate
avgas.


The problem is diurnal changes in temperature pulling moist air into the
gas tank or can, where the moisture condenses into water. We used
DryGas (100% methyl alcohol) to absorb the water and allow it to go
through the engine without problems.

This didn't used to be a problem for my cars or mowers when we had
sealed cans, at least in any state I've ever lived in (AR, CA, AZ, and
OR.)


And, reading the manual, you'd think that 3 pumps on the primer bulb
would charge the carb. Think again. I crank that puppy 30 times
(briggs mower) before attempting to start it and it goes on the first
pull every time.

No bulb to pump on these engines.

Are you running your carb dry at the end of the season? (I never
have.) Is your choke working properly?


My Honda 190 pressure washer goes on the third pull after the winter
layup, um, when I remember to turn the switch on.

I'm still using ethanol/gas and having no problems whatsoever with any
of my beasties after 5 months of rain and cold in Oregon. I usually
fill up at the local Fred Meyer grocery store's gas station. They run
a tanker in there a couple/three times a week, so I know it's fresh
gas. I lost a couple MPG when Oregon switched to ethanol blend,
damnit. What a loser fuel _that_ is...

Gasohol costs at least as much energy (and oil) to make as the gasoline
it replaces, so the environmental benefit is unobvious. Making the
alcohol uses about 1/4 to 1/3 of the corn crop, thus raising food prices
worldwide. But someone is making money on this.

Go here and sign the petition: http://pure-gas.org/


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel

Farmers are getting a whole lot more for their corn, edible or not,
because they get even more subsidies for corn as fuel. I recall some
article saying that they're getting paid by the acre, not the bushel,
so some of the corporate farms are phasing out other crops and
planting some corn there, too.

Gas stations make more profits because it takes 12% more E-10 blend to
go the same distance as pure gas due to the loss of BTU output.
(Where's the supposed energy savings, folks?)

Liberal politicians get points and votes from the eco terrorists (who
haven't yet figured out it's a net loss of energy) for "going green".

And on and on, ad nauseum.

And the Great Cull -still- hasn't started...

--
If the American people ever allow private banks to control
the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by
deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up
around them will deprive the people of all property until
their children wake up homeless on the continent their
Fathers conquered...I believe that banking institutions
are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies...
The issuing power should be taken from the banks and
restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs.
-- misattributed to Thomas Jefferson

"Winston" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:
wrote in message
...
Joseph Gwinn wrote:
In ,
wrote:

(...)

Normally, I stop warming when the casting is detectably warm to the
touch, probably ~ 100 - 150 F.

It makes the 'nearly impossible' easy.

--Winston-- Keeps an extinguisher handy, too.

Or use a heat gun?

Much safer. Thanks!

This is further support for the theory that the issue is the
evaporation
of volatile components of the gas.

That is what I was thinking. I remembered the bad old days of
carburated cars, when winter starts were difficult and summer
starts were relatively easy. I envisioned raw gas puddling in
the cylinder vs. gas vapor doing the 'ignition thing'.

--Winston

Mostly it just condensed on the cylinder walls and stripped the oil off
of
them, and then ran down into the crankcase. It kept the lubricating oil
companies in business.

Ouch!

A good friend of mine spent time helping to build the
Trans Alaska Pipeline. He did oil changes on the heavy
equipment.

While it was running.

--Winston

That's tricky, I'll bet. I wonder how you'd know if the oil you were
draining wasn't the same oil you were putting in.

--
Ed Huntress

On May 7, 6:50*pm, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
I have a lawnmower and a snowblower, both from Honda, and both are hard
to start at the beginning of their season. *The lawnmower is the worst
offender, by far, so I'll focus on it.

I would always get the mower going, but it could take all day the first
time. *After that initial difficult start, starting was reasonably easy
for the rest of the season.

I have heard various theories on why this is so:

1. *Gas varnished up over the winter. *I took the carb apart - clean as
a whistle. *Nor did gas stabilizer make any difference.

2. *Water (from condensation) in the gas. *Hmm, hard to do with the 10%
alcohol in all gas available these days.

3. Volatiles evaporating from the gas in the tank over the winter. *
Also, various stories saying that winter gas and summer gas are
different, the difference being how volatile the gas is, with winter
needing more volatile gas than summer. *Hmm, this could be at least part
of an answer.

So, this year, when I first tried to start the lawnmower for the summer,
had the usual problems. *Tried the usual dodges, like leaving the mower
out in the sun to warm up, and putting fresh gas in the tank, but no go.

Volatiles? *Ether! *So, I gave it a squirt of starting fluid. *

Started right up on the first try, and subsequent starts were of normal
difficulty, probably because all the old gas was by then flushed out of
the carb.

So, theory 3 seems to be correct.

And a dash of Naptha in the gas may do the same.

Joe Gwinn

I like to run my small engines dry at the end of the season (like Pete
C.). I worked for a small company that made material for carburetor
gaskets (among other things) and we use to test gaskets in solvent to
see how much they curled. I found that some gaskets are designed with
U-shaped cuts in them so the flap acts as a check valve. If the
rubber deforms in that area, the check valve no longer works properly
and you have problems.
My old boss liked to say that usually if you have a problem with an
engine, it's probably related to something made of rubber.

On 05/08/2011 01:16 PM, Ed Huntress wrote:
Whatever works, when it comes to small
engines.

My own bit of starting magic went this way --

Last fall, I just shut off the fuel valve and let the engine run
until it stopped from lack of fuel. Pushed the mower into the shed.
Never got around to draining the tank -- Winter came on way early.

This spring, I turned on the fuel valve and let the old gas in the
tank flow into the carburetor bowl, released the flywheel brake and
pulled the starting cord real slow two times just to see what the
engine felt like turning over.

Hmmm, going to be hard to start it now, since it's already running!

Honda engine, no throttle control, choke, or primer to play with.

--
Bob Nichols AT comcast.net I am "RNichols42"

Ed Huntress wrote:
wrote in message
...

(...)

A good friend of mine spent time helping to build the
Trans Alaska Pipeline. He did oil changes on the heavy
equipment.

While it was running.

--Winston

That's tricky, I'll bet. I wonder how you'd know if the oil you were
draining wasn't the same oil you were putting in.

I suspect that a portion of it *was*.
I also suspect that Alyeska had access to lots of cheap motor oil.
He never mentioned details, though it would not surprise me to
learn that there was a system of valves allowing the change to
be done *fairly* safely and efficiently.

--Winston

Ed Huntress wrote:
wrote in message
...

(...)

Normally, I stop warming when the casting is detectably warm to the
touch, probably ~ 100 - 150 F.

It makes the 'nearly impossible' easy.

--Winston-- Keeps an extinguisher handy, too.

Holy cow. You get this week's "What, Me Worry?" award.g

You're in a class with my cousin (now deceased, but for other reasons).
He was in the First Marine Division in Laos and Vietnam, and he used
to tell how he heated his coffee by burning a wad of C4.

As I learned from my former boss's boss:
"I got away with it, therefore it was proper, moral, legal and safe."



I guess it burns nicely, but I'm not likely ever to find out, first-hand.

"*Do not* light the C4 with your remaining hand."

--Winston

On May 7, 4:50*pm, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
I have a lawnmower and a snowblower, both from Honda, and both are hard
to start at the beginning of their season. *The lawnmower is the worst
offender, by far, so I'll focus on it.

I would always get the mower going, but it could take all day the first
time. *After that initial difficult start, starting was reasonably easy
for the rest of the season.

I have heard various theories on why this is so:

1. *Gas varnished up over the winter. *I took the carb apart - clean as
a whistle. *Nor did gas stabilizer make any difference.

2. *Water (from condensation) in the gas. *Hmm, hard to do with the 10%
alcohol in all gas available these days.

3. Volatiles evaporating from the gas in the tank over the winter. *
Also, various stories saying that winter gas and summer gas are
different, the difference being how volatile the gas is, with winter
needing more volatile gas than summer. *Hmm, this could be at least part
of an answer.

So, this year, when I first tried to start the lawnmower for the summer,
had the usual problems. *Tried the usual dodges, like leaving the mower
out in the sun to warm up, and putting fresh gas in the tank, but no go.

Volatiles? *Ether! *So, I gave it a squirt of starting fluid. *

Started right up on the first try, and subsequent starts were of normal
difficulty, probably because all the old gas was by then flushed out of
the carb.

So, theory 3 seems to be correct.

And a dash of Naptha in the gas may do the same.

. Joe Gwinn

Here is what I found. One of my mowers has a Briggs and Stratton
engine with a plastic diaphram carb and a primer. I have rebuilt the
carb cleaned the tank, changed the plug and the oil and it is a pig to
start cold. Once warm however it restarts easy.

My other two mowers have Tecumseh engines. I added a fuel shut off
valve and an inline filter below the carb to trap any water. With
clean carbs these start cold really well. 5 squirts on the primer and
away she goes. Unless of course I have run it dry then it takes a bit
2-3 attempts to start.

Champion has a new plug out now touted as the "one tug plug" more
resistant to fouling and a more focused spark is the claim. About 2
bucks more than the standard plug, might be worth a try.

One of these days I am going to modify an engine to make the spark
timing adjustable. I suspect that a little more retard on the spark
will make it easier to start, after all it worked on the model T.

Naptha in the tank would probably make the gas more volatile, but it
would also cause pre-ignition of the fuel and that would be awfully
rough on these little engines with no bearings, so you might need a
start tank and a run tank, not easy if you have a tank mounted carb.

Roger Shoaf

On Sun, 08 May 2011 18:39:18 -0700, Winston
wrote:

Ed Huntress wrote:
wrote in message
...

(...)

Normally, I stop warming when the casting is detectably warm to the
touch, probably ~ 100 - 150 F.

It makes the 'nearly impossible' easy.

--Winston-- Keeps an extinguisher handy, too.

Holy cow. You get this week's "What, Me Worry?" award.g

You're in a class with my cousin (now deceased, but for other reasons).
He was in the First Marine Division in Laos and Vietnam, and he used
to tell how he heated his coffee by burning a wad of C4.

As I learned from my former boss's boss:
"I got away with it, therefore it was proper, moral, legal and safe."



I guess it burns nicely, but I'm not likely ever to find out, first-hand.

"*Do not* light the C4 with your remaining hand."

--Winston

It does burn rather nicely, abeit very quickly. Heat the water up first,
THEN add the coffee powder. Heating beans and mother****ers over C4
could be interesting...and often left a thick layer of burned beans
inside the pot/cup

Gunner

--
"If I say two plus two is four and a Democrat says two plus two is eight,
it's not a partial victory for me when we agree that two plus two is
six. " Jonah Goldberg (modified)

Winston wrote:
Ed Huntress wrote:
wrote in message
...

(...)

Normally, I stop warming when the casting is detectably warm to the
touch, probably ~ 100 - 150 F.

It makes the 'nearly impossible' easy.

--Winston-- Keeps an extinguisher handy, too.

Holy cow. You get this week's "What, Me Worry?" award.g

You're in a class with my cousin (now deceased, but for other reasons).
He was in the First Marine Division in Laos and Vietnam, and he used
to tell how he heated his coffee by burning a wad of C4.

As I learned from my former boss's boss:
"I got away with it, therefore it was proper, moral, legal and safe."



I guess it burns nicely, but I'm not likely ever to find out, first-hand.

"*Do not* light the C4 with your remaining hand."

--Winston


WHY????

All it does is burn.


--

Richard Lamb
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~sv_temptress

CaveLamb wrote:
Winston wrote:
Ed Huntress wrote:

(...)

I guess it burns nicely, but I'm not likely ever to find out,
first-hand.

"*Do not* light the C4 with your remaining hand."

--Winston


WHY????

All it does is burn.

That was my weak attempt at humor, Rich.

Note smiley.

Don't blame me, I'm sick!

--Winston

Robert Nichols wrote:
On 05/08/2011 01:16 PM, Ed Huntress wrote:
Whatever works, when it comes to small
engines.

My own bit of starting magic went this way --

Last fall, I just shut off the fuel valve and let the engine run
until it stopped from lack of fuel. Pushed the mower into the shed.
Never got around to draining the tank -- Winter came on way early.

This spring, I turned on the fuel valve and let the old gas in the
tank flow into the carburetor bowl, released the flywheel brake and
pulled the starting cord real slow two times just to see what the
engine felt like turning over.

Hmmm, going to be hard to start it now, since it's already running!

Honda engine, no throttle control, choke, or primer to play with.



--

Richard Lamb
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~sv_temptress

Winston wrote:
CaveLamb wrote:
Winston wrote:
Ed Huntress wrote:

(...)

I guess it burns nicely, but I'm not likely ever to find out,
first-hand.

"*Do not* light the C4 with your remaining hand."

--Winston


WHY????

All it does is burn.

That was my weak attempt at humor, Rich.

Note smiley.

Don't blame me, I'm sick!

--Winston


You had me laughing si hard I screwed up!



--

Richard Lamb
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~sv_temptress

On Sun, 08 May 2011 18:18:13 -0700, Winston
wrote:

Ed Huntress wrote:
wrote in message
...

(...)

A good friend of mine spent time helping to build the
Trans Alaska Pipeline. He did oil changes on the heavy
equipment.

While it was running.

--Winston

That's tricky, I'll bet. I wonder how you'd know if the oil you were
draining wasn't the same oil you were putting in.

I suspect that a portion of it *was*.
I also suspect that Alyeska had access to lots of cheap motor oil.
He never mentioned details, though it would not surprise me to
learn that there was a system of valves allowing the change to
be done *fairly* safely and efficiently.

--Winston


It is not that uncommon a feat. You use a pump to pump from the drum
into the engine and drain until the oil looks clean. If it has a very
big drain hole just stick the handle of a ratchet, or something, in
the hole to slow things down a bit.

In article
,
RS at work wrote:

On May 7, 4:50*pm, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
I have a lawnmower and a snowblower, both from Honda, and both are hard
to start at the beginning of their season. *The lawnmower is the worst
offender, by far, so I'll focus on it.

I would always get the mower going, but it could take all day the first
time. *After that initial difficult start, starting was reasonably easy
for the rest of the season.

I have heard various theories on why this is so:

1. *Gas varnished up over the winter. *I took the carb apart - clean as
a whistle. *Nor did gas stabilizer make any difference.

2. *Water (from condensation) in the gas. *Hmm, hard to do with the 10%
alcohol in all gas available these days.

3. Volatiles evaporating from the gas in the tank over the winter. *
Also, various stories saying that winter gas and summer gas are
different, the difference being how volatile the gas is, with winter
needing more volatile gas than summer. *Hmm, this could be at least part
of an answer.

So, this year, when I first tried to start the lawnmower for the summer,
had the usual problems. *Tried the usual dodges, like leaving the mower
out in the sun to warm up, and putting fresh gas in the tank, but no go.

Volatiles? *Ether! *So, I gave it a squirt of starting fluid. *

Started right up on the first try, and subsequent starts were of normal
difficulty, probably because all the old gas was by then flushed out of
the carb.

So, theory 3 seems to be correct.

And a dash of Naptha in the gas may do the same.

. Joe Gwinn

Here is what I found. One of my mowers has a Briggs and Stratton
engine with a plastic diaphram carb and a primer. I have rebuilt the
carb cleaned the tank, changed the plug and the oil and it is a pig to
start cold. Once warm however it restarts easy.

My other two mowers have Tecumseh engines. I added a fuel shut off
valve and an inline filter below the carb to trap any water. With
clean carbs these start cold really well. 5 squirts on the primer and
away she goes. Unless of course I have run it dry then it takes a bit
2-3 attempts to start.

I have had mowers with these engines, and never had any trouble starting
them, so I never needed to become creative.

Although my first Briggs and Stratton was when I was maybe 15, and I
learned about small engines on that mower engine. I didn't fancy going
back to a push mower, and my father was willing to buy any parts I
needed, so that mower got all the repair it needed. I even did valve
jobs on it.


Champion has a new plug out now touted as the "one tug plug" more
resistant to fouling and a more focused spark is the claim. About 2
bucks more than the standard plug, might be worth a try.

This appears to be it:

http://www.federalmogul.com/en/After...merica/Service
Solutions/Products/ChampionSparkPlugs/Lawn-Garden/

Although my problems with starting the Honda have never been solved by
replacing the sparkplug.


One of these days I am going to modify an engine to make the spark
timing adjustable. I suspect that a little more retard on the spark
will make it easier to start, after all it worked on the model T.

At least on the Honda, the advance is adjustable as a repair activity,
so one could certainly retard the spark a bit. But it would stay that
way.


Naptha in the tank would probably make the gas more volatile, but it
would also cause pre-ignition of the fuel and that would be awfully
rough on these little engines with no bearings, so you might need a
start tank and a run tank, not easy if you have a tank mounted carb.

Gasoline already has some naptha in it - the question is how much. There
should be a happy medium.


Joe Gwinn

In article ,
Winston wrote:

Joseph Gwinn wrote:
In ,
wrote:

(...)

Normally, I stop warming when the casting is detectably warm to the
touch, probably ~ 100 - 150 F.

It makes the 'nearly impossible' easy.

--Winston-- Keeps an extinguisher handy, too.

Or use a heat gun?

Much safer. Thanks!

This is further support for the theory that the issue is the evaporation
of volatile components of the gas.

That is what I was thinking. I remembered the bad old days of
carburated cars, when winter starts were difficult and summer
starts were relatively easy. I envisioned raw gas puddling in
the cylinder vs. gas vapor doing the 'ignition thing'.

I never had this problem with automobiles, probably (I guess) because I
always bought the largest battery that would fit, all the better to
crank with.


Joe Gwinn

In article
,
"Denis G." wrote:

On May 7, 6:50*pm, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
I have a lawnmower and a snowblower, both from Honda, and both are hard
to start at the beginning of their season. *The lawnmower is the worst
offender, by far, so I'll focus on it.

I would always get the mower going, but it could take all day the first
time. *After that initial difficult start, starting was reasonably easy
for the rest of the season.

I have heard various theories on why this is so:

1. *Gas varnished up over the winter. *I took the carb apart - clean as
a whistle. *Nor did gas stabilizer make any difference.

2. *Water (from condensation) in the gas. *Hmm, hard to do with the 10%
alcohol in all gas available these days.

3. Volatiles evaporating from the gas in the tank over the winter. *
Also, various stories saying that winter gas and summer gas are
different, the difference being how volatile the gas is, with winter
needing more volatile gas than summer. *Hmm, this could be at least part
of an answer.

So, this year, when I first tried to start the lawnmower for the summer,
had the usual problems. *Tried the usual dodges, like leaving the mower
out in the sun to warm up, and putting fresh gas in the tank, but no go.

Volatiles? *Ether! *So, I gave it a squirt of starting fluid. *

Started right up on the first try, and subsequent starts were of normal
difficulty, probably because all the old gas was by then flushed out of
the carb.

So, theory 3 seems to be correct.

And a dash of Naptha in the gas may do the same.

Joe Gwinn

I like to run my small engines dry at the end of the season (like Pete
C.). I worked for a small company that made material for carburetor
gaskets (among other things) and we use to test gaskets in solvent to
see how much they curled. I found that some gaskets are designed with
U-shaped cuts in them so the flap acts as a check valve. If the
rubber deforms in that area, the check valve no longer works properly
and you have problems.
My old boss liked to say that usually if you have a problem with an
engine, it's probably related to something made of rubber.

In support of your old boss, I did have to replace the carb on the Honda
because the original model couldn't handle the ethanol now in gas. And,
yes, it was the rubber that went. The dealer said that they had has a
rash of such failures. The new carb wasn't too bad, about $15 if memory
serves.

Joe Gwinn

In article ,
Larry Jaques wrote:

On Sun, 08 May 2011 12:45:14 -0400, Joseph Gwinn
wrote:

In article ,
Larry Jaques wrote:

On Sat, 07 May 2011 19:50:31 -0400, Joseph Gwinn
wrote:

I have a lawnmower and a snowblower, both from Honda, and both are hard
to start at the beginning of their season. The lawnmower is the worst
offender, by far, so I'll focus on it.

The redneck would ask "Where yew at?"

Boston, MA area.

Have you tried using non-ethanol premium gas in those? I've heard
that the ethanol attracts moisture and can cause problems.

No non-ethanol gas available in local gas stations. I suppose I could

Weird! Pure-Gas doesn't show it in the list, either.


go to a marina, but that's pretty far.

Yeah, try the marina or the smaller airports. I doubt they contaminate
avgas.


The problem is diurnal changes in temperature pulling moist air into the
gas tank or can, where the moisture condenses into water. We used
DryGas (100% methyl alcohol) to absorb the water and allow it to go
through the engine without problems.

This didn't used to be a problem for my cars or mowers when we had
sealed cans, at least in any state I've ever lived in (AR, CA, AZ, and
OR.)

Only Oregon would be a danger in that list. I don't think I've ever had
the problem either.


And, reading the manual, you'd think that 3 pumps on the primer bulb
would charge the carb. Think again. I crank that puppy 30 times
(briggs mower) before attempting to start it and it goes on the first
pull every time.

No bulb to pump on these engines.

Are you running your carb dry at the end of the season? (I never
have.) Is your choke working properly?

I have never run the carb dry, but given the volatility theory it might
be a good idea. Can't hurt, anyway.

The choke does work properly, now, but has been a problem in the past.
The clamp that holds the throttle cable tends to creep over time.


My Honda 190 pressure washer goes on the third pull after the winter
layup, um, when I remember to turn the switch on.

I'm still using ethanol/gas and having no problems whatsoever with any
of my beasties after 5 months of rain and cold in Oregon. I usually
fill up at the local Fred Meyer grocery store's gas station. They run
a tanker in there a couple/three times a week, so I know it's fresh
gas. I lost a couple MPG when Oregon switched to ethanol blend,
damnit. What a loser fuel _that_ is...

Gasohol costs at least as much energy (and oil) to make as the gasoline
it replaces, so the environmental benefit is unobvious. Making the
alcohol uses about 1/4 to 1/3 of the corn crop, thus raising food prices
worldwide. But someone is making money on this.

Go here and sign the petition: http://pure-gas.org/

Or better, call your congresscritters and tell them to stop wasting your
taxpayer dollars on such things.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel

Farmers are getting a whole lot more for their corn, edible or not,
because they get even more subsidies for corn as fuel. I recall some
article saying that they're getting paid by the acre, not the bushel,
so some of the corporate farms are phasing out other crops and
planting some corn there, too.

The farmers know what market they are growing stuff for, so they won't
bother making corn intended for ethanol production be food grade.


Gas stations make more profits because it takes 12% more E-10 blend to
go the same distance as pure gas due to the loss of BTU output.
(Where's the supposed energy savings, folks?)

I'm not sure I believe this, as prices are set by the open market, and
are largely set by the world oil market.


Liberal politicians get points and votes from the eco terrorists (who
haven't yet figured out it's a net loss of energy) for "going green".

And on and on, ad nauseum.

I think Congress figured this out a long time ago. But nobody wants to
take the ag lobby on.


And the Great Cull -still- hasn't started...

I can't see the population taking to the streets over ethanol subsidies,
no matter how foolish. Historically, it took famine to cause the
population to rise in revolt. But our problem is too much food.


Joe Gwinn

On Wed, 11 May 2011 18:42:32 -0400, Joseph Gwinn
wrote:

In article ,
Larry Jaques wrote:
Are you running your carb dry at the end of the season? (I never
have.) Is your choke working properly?

I have never run the carb dry, but given the volatility theory it might
be a good idea. Can't hurt, anyway.

The choke does work properly, now, but has been a problem in the past.
The clamp that holds the throttle cable tends to creep over time.

A loose choke cable is a sure way to have trouble starting it.


Go here and sign the petition: http://pure-gas.org/

Or better, call your congresscritters and tell them to stop wasting your
taxpayer dollars on such things.

Ayup. Both might even be better.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel

Farmers are getting a whole lot more for their corn, edible or not,
because they get even more subsidies for corn as fuel. I recall some
article saying that they're getting paid by the acre, not the bushel,
so some of the corporate farms are phasing out other crops and
planting some corn there, too.

The farmers know what market they are growing stuff for, so they won't
bother making corn intended for ethanol production be food grade.

Twue.


Gas stations make more profits because it takes 12% more E-10 blend to
go the same distance as pure gas due to the loss of BTU output.
(Where's the supposed energy savings, folks?)

I'm not sure I believe this, as prices are set by the open market, and
are largely set by the world oil market.

Huh? I was primarily talking about ethanol's lack of efficiency and
you pick up on the pricing? Well, gas station owners make a set price
per gallon, so they're selling at least 12% more gallons due to the
efficiency, so they're making at least a 12% higher profit. It's the
oil companies who really cash in on the futures markets, selling it
between themselves up to 100 times (on paper) before it's sold to the
market (if one article I read was true.)



Liberal politicians get points and votes from the eco terrorists (who
haven't yet figured out it's a net loss of energy) for "going green".

And on and on, ad nauseum.

I think Congress figured this out a long time ago. But nobody wants to
take the ag lobby on.

Uckfay the ag Obbylay.


And the Great Cull -still- hasn't started...

I can't see the population taking to the streets over ethanol subsidies,

No, but that's merely one of 1,000 cuts the bastids wound us with on a
daily basis. I'm wondering which one will finally be the last one to
be accepted before the carnage starts. Which will be the one which
sets us over critical mass?


no matter how foolish. Historically, it took famine to cause the
population to rise in revolt. But our problem is too much food.

I guess fat sheeple aren't revolting.
(Hmm, would that be an oxymoron, a double entendre, or both?)

--
Woe be to him that reads but one book.
-- George Herbert

In article ,
Larry Jaques wrote:

On Wed, 11 May 2011 18:42:32 -0400, Joseph Gwinn
wrote:

In article ,
Larry Jaques wrote:
Are you running your carb dry at the end of the season? (I never
have.) Is your choke working properly?

I have never run the carb dry, but given the volatility theory it might
be a good idea. Can't hurt, anyway.

The choke does work properly, now, but has been a problem in the past.
The clamp that holds the throttle cable tends to creep over time.

A loose choke cable is a sure way to have trouble starting it.


Go here and sign the petition: http://pure-gas.org/

Or better, call your congresscritters and tell them to stop wasting your
taxpayer dollars on such things.

Ayup. Both might even be better.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel

Farmers are getting a whole lot more for their corn, edible or not,
because they get even more subsidies for corn as fuel. I recall some
article saying that they're getting paid by the acre, not the bushel,
so some of the corporate farms are phasing out other crops and
planting some corn there, too.

The farmers know what market they are growing stuff for, so they won't
bother making corn intended for ethanol production be food grade.

Twue.


Gas stations make more profits because it takes 12% more E-10 blend to
go the same distance as pure gas due to the loss of BTU output.
(Where's the supposed energy savings, folks?)

I'm not sure I believe this, as prices are set by the open market, and
are largely set by the world oil market.

Huh? I was primarily talking about ethanol's lack of efficiency and
you pick up on the pricing? Well, gas station owners make a set price
per gallon, so they're selling at least 12% more gallons due to the
efficiency, so they're making at least a 12% higher profit. It's the
oil companies who really cash in on the futures markets, selling it
between themselves up to 100 times (on paper) before it's sold to the
market (if one article I read was true.)



Liberal politicians get points and votes from the eco terrorists (who
haven't yet figured out it's a net loss of energy) for "going green".

And on and on, ad nauseum.

I think Congress figured this out a long time ago. But nobody wants to
take the ag lobby on.

Uckfay the ag Obbylay.

Easy for you to say, as you aren't running for office.


And the Great Cull -still- hasn't started...

I can't see the population taking to the streets over ethanol subsidies,

No, but that's merely one of 1,000 cuts the bastids wound us with on a
daily basis. I'm wondering which one will finally be the last one to
be accepted before the carnage starts. Which will be the one which
sets us over critical mass?

It may have already begun, with the Tea Part revolt against spending.


no matter how foolish. Historically, it took famine to cause the
population to rise in revolt. But our problem is too much food.

I guess fat sheeple aren't revolting.
(Hmm, would that be an oxymoron, a double entendre, or both?)

Hmm.

Well, Shakespeare broke the code:

Caesar:
Antonio!

Marcus Antonius:
Caesar?

Caesar:
Let me have men about me that are fat,
Sleek-headed men and such as sleep a-nights.
Yond Cassius has a lean and hungry look,
He thinks too much; such men are dangerous.

Julius Caesar Act 1, scene 2, 190-195


Joe Gwinn

On Wed, 11 May 2011 17:48:38 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Wed, 11 May 2011 18:42:32 -0400, Joseph Gwinn
wrote:

In article ,
Larry Jaques wrote:
Are you running your carb dry at the end of the season? (I never
have.) Is your choke working properly?

I have never run the carb dry, but given the volatility theory it might
be a good idea. Can't hurt, anyway.

The choke does work properly, now, but has been a problem in the past.
The clamp that holds the throttle cable tends to creep over time.

A loose choke cable is a sure way to have trouble starting it.


Go here and sign the petition: http://pure-gas.org/

Or better, call your congresscritters and tell them to stop wasting your
taxpayer dollars on such things.

Ayup. Both might even be better.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel

Farmers are getting a whole lot more for their corn, edible or not,
because they get even more subsidies for corn as fuel. I recall some
article saying that they're getting paid by the acre, not the bushel,
so some of the corporate farms are phasing out other crops and
planting some corn there, too.

The farmers know what market they are growing stuff for, so they won't
bother making corn intended for ethanol production be food grade.

Twue.


Gas stations make more profits because it takes 12% more E-10 blend to
go the same distance as pure gas due to the loss of BTU output.
(Where's the supposed energy savings, folks?)

I'm not sure I believe this, as prices are set by the open market, and
are largely set by the world oil market.

Huh? I was primarily talking about ethanol's lack of efficiency and
you pick up on the pricing? Well, gas station owners make a set price
per gallon, so they're selling at least 12% more gallons due to the
efficiency, so they're making at least a 12% higher profit. It's the
oil companies who really cash in on the futures markets, selling it
between themselves up to 100 times (on paper) before it's sold to the
market (if one article I read was true.)

Someone's numbers are off. E10 makes for a 5% difference in
consumption, not 12%. And the service station guy makes the same
amount per liter or gallon regardless of the selling price.
Depends whether it is self serve (in most places, virtually ALL is
self serve) or full service.
When I last operated a service station we gor 3.5 cents a gallon on
the self serve pumps and 5 cents a gallon on the full serve. That was
a few years ago, of course, but the oil companies have not been overly
generous as of late.


Liberal politicians get points and votes from the eco terrorists (who
haven't yet figured out it's a net loss of energy) for "going green".

And on and on, ad nauseum.

I think Congress figured this out a long time ago. But nobody wants to
take the ag lobby on.

Uckfay the ag Obbylay.


And the Great Cull -still- hasn't started...

I can't see the population taking to the streets over ethanol subsidies,

No, but that's merely one of 1,000 cuts the bastids wound us with on a
daily basis. I'm wondering which one will finally be the last one to
be accepted before the carnage starts. Which will be the one which
sets us over critical mass?


no matter how foolish. Historically, it took famine to cause the
population to rise in revolt. But our problem is too much food.

I guess fat sheeple aren't revolting.
(Hmm, would that be an oxymoron, a double entendre, or both?)

Joseph Gwinn wrote:
In ,
wrote:

(...)

That is what I was thinking. I remembered the bad old days of
carburated cars, when winter starts were difficult and summer
starts were relatively easy. I envisioned raw gas puddling in
the cylinder vs. gas vapor doing the 'ignition thing'.

I never had this problem with automobiles, probably (I guess) because I
always bought the largest battery that would fit, all the better to
crank with.

Well, my carburated cars would turn over and start properly.
It's just that cold weather running required a lot of 'foot nursing'
on the skinny pedal to keep them from konking out until they were
warm enough to effectively vaporize fuel. It took a couple minutes
at most but it was still an irritation.

I *love* fuel injection.

--Winston

On May 11, 11:04*pm, Winston wrote:
....

My neighbor has a new pressure washer with a B&S 190cc engine with
ReadyStart that's a beast to start. He said it was a customer return
so it may have been defective from the factory. I waved my magic hands
over it and got it running for him, twice, but don't know exactly
which of the many tricks I tried actually worked.

The B&S site just lists all the standard checks like the plug and air
filter and put in new gas. I topped up the oil though it doesn't seem
to have a low-oil shutoff. Do those things have any common failure
modes?

If it were mine I'd pull it all apart to look for anything broken or
clogged. I don't want to risk his warranty.

He's a skilled carpenter but has bad luck with things mechanical.
While he was showing me his expensive new hose nozzle the plastic core
broke and blew out.
http://tinyurl.com/3vfutfb

jsw

wrote:

On May 7, 5:50 pm, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
I have a lawnmower and a snowblower, both from Honda, and both are hard
to start at the beginning of their season. The lawnmower is the worst
offender, by far, so I'll focus on it.

I would always get the mower going, but it could take all day the first
time. After that initial difficult start, starting was reasonably easy
for the rest of the season.

I have heard various theories on why this is so:

1. Gas varnished up over the winter. I took the carb apart - clean as
a whistle. Nor did gas stabilizer make any difference.

2. Water (from condensation) in the gas. Hmm, hard to do with the 10%
alcohol in all gas available these days.

3. Volatiles evaporating from the gas in the tank over the winter.
Also, various stories saying that winter gas and summer gas are
different, the difference being how volatile the gas is, with winter
needing more volatile gas than summer. Hmm, this could be at least part
of an answer.

So, this year, when I first tried to start the lawnmower for the summer,
had the usual problems. Tried the usual dodges, like leaving the mower
out in the sun to warm up, and putting fresh gas in the tank, but no go.

Volatiles? Ether! So, I gave it a squirt of starting fluid.

Started right up on the first try, and subsequent starts were of normal
difficulty, probably because all the old gas was by then flushed out of
the carb.

So, theory 3 seems to be correct.

And a dash of Naptha in the gas may do the same.

Joe Gwinn

Ran the gas out of mine completely last fall, got some fresh 91 octane
last week, filled the tank, it fired off in three pulls, needed
another pull to keep going. Has a gravity feed tank. I've found 91
octane is needed with the alcohol contaminated gas for it to chop
through the heavier weeds, otherwise it stalls. Difference in
performance is quite noticiable. Briggs engine, about 25 years old.
In the past, if I left gas in it, even if the float bowl was left dry
I'd have to disassemble and hit all the parts with carb cleaner, then
it would run. I also think the alcohol is the reason they're sticking
6 hp engines on the same mowers they used to put 3.5 hp engines. That
and CA smog specs. Either that or the horses have shrunk down.

The horses have shrunk down. I think what they were calling a 5 hp was
practically identical to what they sold as 3.5 hp for 50 years. There
was a Nationwide class action lawsuit against B&S. As a consequence they
no longer use hp ratings. They are rated by torque.

-jim



Stan

jim wrote:

The horses have shrunk down. I think what they were calling a 5 hp was
practically identical to what they sold as 3.5 hp for 50 years. There
was a Nationwide class action lawsuit against B&S. As a consequence they
no longer use hp ratings. They are rated by torque.


Now they are just trying to torque us off! ;-)


--
You can't fix stupid. You can't even put a Band-Aid™ on it, because it's
Teflon coated.

On Wed, 11 May 2011 22:59:25 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 11 May 2011 17:48:38 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Wed, 11 May 2011 18:42:32 -0400, Joseph Gwinn
wrote:

In article ,
Larry Jaques wrote:
Are you running your carb dry at the end of the season? (I never
have.) Is your choke working properly?

I have never run the carb dry, but given the volatility theory it might
be a good idea. Can't hurt, anyway.

The choke does work properly, now, but has been a problem in the past.
The clamp that holds the throttle cable tends to creep over time.

A loose choke cable is a sure way to have trouble starting it.


Go here and sign the petition: http://pure-gas.org/

Or better, call your congresscritters and tell them to stop wasting your
taxpayer dollars on such things.

Ayup. Both might even be better.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel

Farmers are getting a whole lot more for their corn, edible or not,
because they get even more subsidies for corn as fuel. I recall some
article saying that they're getting paid by the acre, not the bushel,
so some of the corporate farms are phasing out other crops and
planting some corn there, too.

The farmers know what market they are growing stuff for, so they won't
bother making corn intended for ethanol production be food grade.

Twue.


Gas stations make more profits because it takes 12% more E-10 blend to
go the same distance as pure gas due to the loss of BTU output.
(Where's the supposed energy savings, folks?)

I'm not sure I believe this, as prices are set by the open market, and
are largely set by the world oil market.

Huh? I was primarily talking about ethanol's lack of efficiency and
you pick up on the pricing? Well, gas station owners make a set price
per gallon, so they're selling at least 12% more gallons due to the
efficiency, so they're making at least a 12% higher profit. It's the
oil companies who really cash in on the futures markets, selling it
between themselves up to 100 times (on paper) before it's sold to the
market (if one article I read was true.)

Someone's numbers are off. E10 makes for a 5% difference in
consumption, not 12%. And the service station guy makes the same
amount per liter or gallon regardless of the selling price.
Depends whether it is self serve (in most places, virtually ALL is
self serve) or full service.
When I last operated a service station we gor 3.5 cents a gallon on
the self serve pumps and 5 cents a gallon on the full serve. That was
a few years ago, of course, but the oil companies have not been overly
generous as of late.

Someone's numbers are from careful observation of their mileage on
their own vehicle and from their own pocketbook. I lost 12% in gas
mileage when Oregon switched to E10. That means they're selling 12%
more gas than they were, and making an extra profit on it.

The only cites I've seen say 10%, but I'd like to see your cite for
5%, clare.

--
Woe be to him that reads but one book.
-- George Herbert

On Thu, 12 May 2011 15:20:48 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Wed, 11 May 2011 22:59:25 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 11 May 2011 17:48:38 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Wed, 11 May 2011 18:42:32 -0400, Joseph Gwinn
wrote:

In article ,
Larry Jaques wrote:
Are you running your carb dry at the end of the season? (I never
have.) Is your choke working properly?

I have never run the carb dry, but given the volatility theory it might
be a good idea. Can't hurt, anyway.

The choke does work properly, now, but has been a problem in the past.
The clamp that holds the throttle cable tends to creep over time.

A loose choke cable is a sure way to have trouble starting it.


Go here and sign the petition: http://pure-gas.org/

Or better, call your congresscritters and tell them to stop wasting your
taxpayer dollars on such things.

Ayup. Both might even be better.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel

Farmers are getting a whole lot more for their corn, edible or not,
because they get even more subsidies for corn as fuel. I recall some
article saying that they're getting paid by the acre, not the bushel,
so some of the corporate farms are phasing out other crops and
planting some corn there, too.

The farmers know what market they are growing stuff for, so they won't
bother making corn intended for ethanol production be food grade.

Twue.


Gas stations make more profits because it takes 12% more E-10 blend to
go the same distance as pure gas due to the loss of BTU output.
(Where's the supposed energy savings, folks?)

I'm not sure I believe this, as prices are set by the open market, and
are largely set by the world oil market.

Huh? I was primarily talking about ethanol's lack of efficiency and
you pick up on the pricing? Well, gas station owners make a set price
per gallon, so they're selling at least 12% more gallons due to the
efficiency, so they're making at least a 12% higher profit. It's the
oil companies who really cash in on the futures markets, selling it
between themselves up to 100 times (on paper) before it's sold to the
market (if one article I read was true.)

Someone's numbers are off. E10 makes for a 5% difference in
consumption, not 12%. And the service station guy makes the same
amount per liter or gallon regardless of the selling price.
Depends whether it is self serve (in most places, virtually ALL is
self serve) or full service.
When I last operated a service station we gor 3.5 cents a gallon on
the self serve pumps and 5 cents a gallon on the full serve. That was
a few years ago, of course, but the oil companies have not been overly
generous as of late.

Someone's numbers are from careful observation of their mileage on
their own vehicle and from their own pocketbook. I lost 12% in gas
mileage when Oregon switched to E10. That means they're selling 12%
more gas than they were, and making an extra profit on it.

The only cites I've seen say 10%, but I'd like to see your cite for
5%, clare.
Ethanol has half the calorific value of gasoline, so 10% ethanol
means 5% loss of energy - so if the vehicle is properly set up you
lose 5% in mileage with E10 - and that's about what I'm finding.

Now, if your E10 is modified with other contaminants as well, you will
perhaps lose more. And since "gasoline" is not a defined product, with
a specific chemical formula or makeup, you can get a lot more
difference between different brands/mixes/local formulations than the
difference between "straight" and "E10" gasolines.

Now, if you are running E10 on an engine that is not calibrated for
it, that engine will run LEAN, and possibly loose more power than the
5% calorie deficit would indiicate - but that would require a
carbureted or pre-obd type injected engine, as all the current (since
1996) engines adjust the mixture enough to compensate for E10 in the
mixture.

On Thu, 12 May 2011 13:15:28 -0500, jim
wrote:

wrote:

On May 7, 5:50 pm, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
I have a lawnmower and a snowblower, both from Honda, and both are hard
to start at the beginning of their season. The lawnmower is the worst
offender, by far, so I'll focus on it.

I would always get the mower going, but it could take all day the first
time. After that initial difficult start, starting was reasonably easy
for the rest of the season.

I have heard various theories on why this is so:

1. Gas varnished up over the winter. I took the carb apart - clean as
a whistle. Nor did gas stabilizer make any difference.

2. Water (from condensation) in the gas. Hmm, hard to do with the 10%
alcohol in all gas available these days.

3. Volatiles evaporating from the gas in the tank over the winter.
Also, various stories saying that winter gas and summer gas are
different, the difference being how volatile the gas is, with winter
needing more volatile gas than summer. Hmm, this could be at least part
of an answer.

So, this year, when I first tried to start the lawnmower for the summer,
had the usual problems. Tried the usual dodges, like leaving the mower
out in the sun to warm up, and putting fresh gas in the tank, but no go.

Volatiles? Ether! So, I gave it a squirt of starting fluid.

Started right up on the first try, and subsequent starts were of normal
difficulty, probably because all the old gas was by then flushed out of
the carb.

So, theory 3 seems to be correct.

And a dash of Naptha in the gas may do the same.

Joe Gwinn

Ran the gas out of mine completely last fall, got some fresh 91 octane
last week, filled the tank, it fired off in three pulls, needed
another pull to keep going. Has a gravity feed tank. I've found 91
octane is needed with the alcohol contaminated gas for it to chop
through the heavier weeds, otherwise it stalls. Difference in
performance is quite noticiable. Briggs engine, about 25 years old.
In the past, if I left gas in it, even if the float bowl was left dry
I'd have to disassemble and hit all the parts with carb cleaner, then
it would run. I also think the alcohol is the reason they're sticking
6 hp engines on the same mowers they used to put 3.5 hp engines. That
and CA smog specs. Either that or the horses have shrunk down.

The horses have shrunk down. I think what they were calling a 5 hp was
practically identical to what they sold as 3.5 hp for 50 years. There
was a Nationwide class action lawsuit against B&S. As a consequence they
no longer use hp ratings. They are rated by torque.

-jim



Stan
The REASON they now sell by torque is the HP rating was at 3600 RPM,
and with the safely regulations today most lawn mowers are running
their engines BELOW that speed - many only 2400 RPM
A 6 hp motor at 3600 rpm is 8.75 ft lbs of torque. At 2400 RPM that's
only something like 4 HP.