I have a lawnmower and a snowblower, both from Honda, and both are hard
to start at the beginning of their season. The lawnmower is the worst
offender, by far, so I'll focus on it.

I would always get the mower going, but it could take all day the first
time. After that initial difficult start, starting was reasonably easy
for the rest of the season.

I have heard various theories on why this is so:

1. Gas varnished up over the winter. I took the carb apart - clean as
a whistle. Nor did gas stabilizer make any difference.

2. Water (from condensation) in the gas. Hmm, hard to do with the 10%
alcohol in all gas available these days.

3. Volatiles evaporating from the gas in the tank over the winter.
Also, various stories saying that winter gas and summer gas are
different, the difference being how volatile the gas is, with winter
needing more volatile gas than summer. Hmm, this could be at least part
of an answer.

So, this year, when I first tried to start the lawnmower for the summer,
had the usual problems. Tried the usual dodges, like leaving the mower
out in the sun to warm up, and putting fresh gas in the tank, but no go.

Volatiles? Ether! So, I gave it a squirt of starting fluid.

Started right up on the first try, and subsequent starts were of normal
difficulty, probably because all the old gas was by then flushed out of
the carb.

So, theory 3 seems to be correct.

And a dash of Naptha in the gas may do the same.


Joe Gwinn

Joseph Gwinn wrote:

I have a lawnmower and a snowblower, both from Honda, and both are hard
to start at the beginning of their season. The lawnmower is the worst
offender, by far, so I'll focus on it.

I would always get the mower going, but it could take all day the first
time. After that initial difficult start, starting was reasonably easy
for the rest of the season.

I have heard various theories on why this is so:

1. Gas varnished up over the winter. I took the carb apart - clean as
a whistle. Nor did gas stabilizer make any difference.

2. Water (from condensation) in the gas. Hmm, hard to do with the 10%
alcohol in all gas available these days.

3. Volatiles evaporating from the gas in the tank over the winter.
Also, various stories saying that winter gas and summer gas are
different, the difference being how volatile the gas is, with winter
needing more volatile gas than summer. Hmm, this could be at least part
of an answer.

So, this year, when I first tried to start the lawnmower for the summer,
had the usual problems. Tried the usual dodges, like leaving the mower
out in the sun to warm up, and putting fresh gas in the tank, but no go.

Volatiles? Ether! So, I gave it a squirt of starting fluid.

Started right up on the first try, and subsequent starts were of normal
difficulty, probably because all the old gas was by then flushed out of
the carb.

So, theory 3 seems to be correct.

And a dash of Naptha in the gas may do the same.

Joe Gwinn

Stabil in all gas stocks, run dry at the end of the season, a hefty dose
of B12 fuel system cleaner in the first fill of the season and as you
noted, a shot of ether on the first start of the season.

In article .com,
"Pete C." wrote:

Joseph Gwinn wrote:

I have a lawnmower and a snowblower, both from Honda, and both are hard
to start at the beginning of their season. The lawnmower is the worst
offender, by far, so I'll focus on it.

I would always get the mower going, but it could take all day the first
time. After that initial difficult start, starting was reasonably easy
for the rest of the season.

I have heard various theories on why this is so:

1. Gas varnished up over the winter. I took the carb apart - clean as
a whistle. Nor did gas stabilizer make any difference.

2. Water (from condensation) in the gas. Hmm, hard to do with the 10%
alcohol in all gas available these days.

3. Volatiles evaporating from the gas in the tank over the winter.
Also, various stories saying that winter gas and summer gas are
different, the difference being how volatile the gas is, with winter
needing more volatile gas than summer. Hmm, this could be at least part
of an answer.

So, this year, when I first tried to start the lawnmower for the summer,
had the usual problems. Tried the usual dodges, like leaving the mower
out in the sun to warm up, and putting fresh gas in the tank, but no go.

Volatiles? Ether! So, I gave it a squirt of starting fluid.

Started right up on the first try, and subsequent starts were of normal
difficulty, probably because all the old gas was by then flushed out of
the carb.

So, theory 3 seems to be correct.

And a dash of Naptha in the gas may do the same.

Joe Gwinn

Stabil in all gas stocks, run dry at the end of the season, a hefty dose
of B12 fuel system cleaner in the first fill of the season and as you
noted, a shot of ether on the first start of the season.

I've tried many of these things, but have discovered that what matters
is the shot of ether.

I suppose that if one runs the engine dry, then fresh new gas (with all
its volatile components still there) will get to the carb first, with no
old stuff in the way.

Joe Gwinn

On Sat, 07 May 2011 19:50:31 -0400, Joseph Gwinn
wrote:

I have a lawnmower and a snowblower, both from Honda, and both are hard
to start at the beginning of their season. The lawnmower is the worst
offender, by far, so I'll focus on it.

The redneck would ask "Where yew at?"

Have you tried using non-ethanol premium gas in those? I've heard
that the ethanol attracts moisture and can cause problems.

And, reading the manual, you'd think that 3 pumps on the primer bulb
would charge the carb. Think again. I crank that puppy 30 times
(briggs mower) before attempting to start it and it goes on the first
pull every time.

My Honda 190 pressure washer goes on the third pull after the winter
layup, um, when I remember to turn the switch on.

I'm still using ethanol/gas and having no problems whatsoever with any
of my beasties after 5 months of rain and cold in Oregon. I usually
fill up at the local Fred Meyer grocery store's gas station. They run
a tanker in there a couple/three times a week, so I know it's fresh
gas. I lost a couple MPG when Oregon switched to ethanol blend,
damnit. What a loser fuel _that_ is...

--
The spread of evil is the symptom of a vacuum. whenever evil
wins, it is only by default: by the moral failure of those
who evade the fact that there can be no compromise on basic
principles. -- Ayn Rand

In article ,
Larry Jaques wrote:

On Sat, 07 May 2011 19:50:31 -0400, Joseph Gwinn
wrote:

I have a lawnmower and a snowblower, both from Honda, and both are hard
to start at the beginning of their season. The lawnmower is the worst
offender, by far, so I'll focus on it.

The redneck would ask "Where yew at?"

Boston, MA area.


Have you tried using non-ethanol premium gas in those? I've heard
that the ethanol attracts moisture and can cause problems.

No non-ethanol gas available in local gas stations. I suppose I could
go to a marina, but that's pretty far.

The problem is diurnal changes in temperature pulling moist air into the
gas tank or can, where the moisture condenses into water. We used
DryGas (100% methyl alcohol) to absorb the water and allow it to go
through the engine without problems.


And, reading the manual, you'd think that 3 pumps on the primer bulb
would charge the carb. Think again. I crank that puppy 30 times
(briggs mower) before attempting to start it and it goes on the first
pull every time.

No bulb to pump on these engines.


My Honda 190 pressure washer goes on the third pull after the winter
layup, um, when I remember to turn the switch on.

I'm still using ethanol/gas and having no problems whatsoever with any
of my beasties after 5 months of rain and cold in Oregon. I usually
fill up at the local Fred Meyer grocery store's gas station. They run
a tanker in there a couple/three times a week, so I know it's fresh
gas. I lost a couple MPG when Oregon switched to ethanol blend,
damnit. What a loser fuel _that_ is...

Gasohol costs at least as much energy (and oil) to make as the gasoline
it replaces, so the environmental benefit is unobvious. Making the
alcohol uses about 1/4 to 1/3 of the corn crop, thus raising food prices
worldwide. But someone is making money on this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel

Joe Gwinn

Joseph Gwinn wrote:

Gasohol costs at least as much energy (and oil) to make as the gasoline
it replaces, so the environmental benefit is unobvious. Making the
alcohol uses about 1/4 to 1/3 of the corn crop, thus raising food prices
worldwide. But someone is making money on this.

Al Gore, of course. But the recruits to the Church of Warmingism don't
care about facts, just obeying The Faith.

Cheers!
Rich

On Sun, 08 May 2011 12:45:14 -0400, Joseph Gwinn
wrote:

In article ,
Larry Jaques wrote:

On Sat, 07 May 2011 19:50:31 -0400, Joseph Gwinn
wrote:

I have a lawnmower and a snowblower, both from Honda, and both are hard
to start at the beginning of their season. The lawnmower is the worst
offender, by far, so I'll focus on it.

The redneck would ask "Where yew at?"

Boston, MA area.

Have you tried using non-ethanol premium gas in those? I've heard
that the ethanol attracts moisture and can cause problems.

No non-ethanol gas available in local gas stations. I suppose I could

Weird! Pure-Gas doesn't show it in the list, either.


go to a marina, but that's pretty far.

Yeah, try the marina or the smaller airports. I doubt they contaminate
avgas.


The problem is diurnal changes in temperature pulling moist air into the
gas tank or can, where the moisture condenses into water. We used
DryGas (100% methyl alcohol) to absorb the water and allow it to go
through the engine without problems.

This didn't used to be a problem for my cars or mowers when we had
sealed cans, at least in any state I've ever lived in (AR, CA, AZ, and
OR.)


And, reading the manual, you'd think that 3 pumps on the primer bulb
would charge the carb. Think again. I crank that puppy 30 times
(briggs mower) before attempting to start it and it goes on the first
pull every time.

No bulb to pump on these engines.

Are you running your carb dry at the end of the season? (I never
have.) Is your choke working properly?


My Honda 190 pressure washer goes on the third pull after the winter
layup, um, when I remember to turn the switch on.

I'm still using ethanol/gas and having no problems whatsoever with any
of my beasties after 5 months of rain and cold in Oregon. I usually
fill up at the local Fred Meyer grocery store's gas station. They run
a tanker in there a couple/three times a week, so I know it's fresh
gas. I lost a couple MPG when Oregon switched to ethanol blend,
damnit. What a loser fuel _that_ is...

Gasohol costs at least as much energy (and oil) to make as the gasoline
it replaces, so the environmental benefit is unobvious. Making the
alcohol uses about 1/4 to 1/3 of the corn crop, thus raising food prices
worldwide. But someone is making money on this.

Go here and sign the petition: http://pure-gas.org/


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel

Farmers are getting a whole lot more for their corn, edible or not,
because they get even more subsidies for corn as fuel. I recall some
article saying that they're getting paid by the acre, not the bushel,
so some of the corporate farms are phasing out other crops and
planting some corn there, too.

Gas stations make more profits because it takes 12% more E-10 blend to
go the same distance as pure gas due to the loss of BTU output.
(Where's the supposed energy savings, folks?)

Liberal politicians get points and votes from the eco terrorists (who
haven't yet figured out it's a net loss of energy) for "going green".

And on and on, ad nauseum.

And the Great Cull -still- hasn't started...

--
If the American people ever allow private banks to control
the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by
deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up
around them will deprive the people of all property until
their children wake up homeless on the continent their
Fathers conquered...I believe that banking institutions
are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies...
The issuing power should be taken from the banks and
restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs.
-- misattributed to Thomas Jefferson

In article ,
Larry Jaques wrote:

On Sun, 08 May 2011 12:45:14 -0400, Joseph Gwinn
wrote:

In article ,
Larry Jaques wrote:

On Sat, 07 May 2011 19:50:31 -0400, Joseph Gwinn
wrote:

I have a lawnmower and a snowblower, both from Honda, and both are hard
to start at the beginning of their season. The lawnmower is the worst
offender, by far, so I'll focus on it.

The redneck would ask "Where yew at?"

Boston, MA area.

Have you tried using non-ethanol premium gas in those? I've heard
that the ethanol attracts moisture and can cause problems.

No non-ethanol gas available in local gas stations. I suppose I could

Weird! Pure-Gas doesn't show it in the list, either.


go to a marina, but that's pretty far.

Yeah, try the marina or the smaller airports. I doubt they contaminate
avgas.


The problem is diurnal changes in temperature pulling moist air into the
gas tank or can, where the moisture condenses into water. We used
DryGas (100% methyl alcohol) to absorb the water and allow it to go
through the engine without problems.

This didn't used to be a problem for my cars or mowers when we had
sealed cans, at least in any state I've ever lived in (AR, CA, AZ, and
OR.)

Only Oregon would be a danger in that list. I don't think I've ever had
the problem either.


And, reading the manual, you'd think that 3 pumps on the primer bulb
would charge the carb. Think again. I crank that puppy 30 times
(briggs mower) before attempting to start it and it goes on the first
pull every time.

No bulb to pump on these engines.

Are you running your carb dry at the end of the season? (I never
have.) Is your choke working properly?

I have never run the carb dry, but given the volatility theory it might
be a good idea. Can't hurt, anyway.

The choke does work properly, now, but has been a problem in the past.
The clamp that holds the throttle cable tends to creep over time.


My Honda 190 pressure washer goes on the third pull after the winter
layup, um, when I remember to turn the switch on.

I'm still using ethanol/gas and having no problems whatsoever with any
of my beasties after 5 months of rain and cold in Oregon. I usually
fill up at the local Fred Meyer grocery store's gas station. They run
a tanker in there a couple/three times a week, so I know it's fresh
gas. I lost a couple MPG when Oregon switched to ethanol blend,
damnit. What a loser fuel _that_ is...

Gasohol costs at least as much energy (and oil) to make as the gasoline
it replaces, so the environmental benefit is unobvious. Making the
alcohol uses about 1/4 to 1/3 of the corn crop, thus raising food prices
worldwide. But someone is making money on this.

Go here and sign the petition: http://pure-gas.org/

Or better, call your congresscritters and tell them to stop wasting your
taxpayer dollars on such things.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel

Farmers are getting a whole lot more for their corn, edible or not,
because they get even more subsidies for corn as fuel. I recall some
article saying that they're getting paid by the acre, not the bushel,
so some of the corporate farms are phasing out other crops and
planting some corn there, too.

The farmers know what market they are growing stuff for, so they won't
bother making corn intended for ethanol production be food grade.


Gas stations make more profits because it takes 12% more E-10 blend to
go the same distance as pure gas due to the loss of BTU output.
(Where's the supposed energy savings, folks?)

I'm not sure I believe this, as prices are set by the open market, and
are largely set by the world oil market.


Liberal politicians get points and votes from the eco terrorists (who
haven't yet figured out it's a net loss of energy) for "going green".

And on and on, ad nauseum.

I think Congress figured this out a long time ago. But nobody wants to
take the ag lobby on.


And the Great Cull -still- hasn't started...

I can't see the population taking to the streets over ethanol subsidies,
no matter how foolish. Historically, it took famine to cause the
population to rise in revolt. But our problem is too much food.


Joe Gwinn

On Wed, 11 May 2011 18:42:32 -0400, Joseph Gwinn
wrote:

In article ,
Larry Jaques wrote:
Are you running your carb dry at the end of the season? (I never
have.) Is your choke working properly?

I have never run the carb dry, but given the volatility theory it might
be a good idea. Can't hurt, anyway.

The choke does work properly, now, but has been a problem in the past.
The clamp that holds the throttle cable tends to creep over time.

A loose choke cable is a sure way to have trouble starting it.


Go here and sign the petition: http://pure-gas.org/

Or better, call your congresscritters and tell them to stop wasting your
taxpayer dollars on such things.

Ayup. Both might even be better.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel

Farmers are getting a whole lot more for their corn, edible or not,
because they get even more subsidies for corn as fuel. I recall some
article saying that they're getting paid by the acre, not the bushel,
so some of the corporate farms are phasing out other crops and
planting some corn there, too.

The farmers know what market they are growing stuff for, so they won't
bother making corn intended for ethanol production be food grade.

Twue.


Gas stations make more profits because it takes 12% more E-10 blend to
go the same distance as pure gas due to the loss of BTU output.
(Where's the supposed energy savings, folks?)

I'm not sure I believe this, as prices are set by the open market, and
are largely set by the world oil market.

Huh? I was primarily talking about ethanol's lack of efficiency and
you pick up on the pricing? Well, gas station owners make a set price
per gallon, so they're selling at least 12% more gallons due to the
efficiency, so they're making at least a 12% higher profit. It's the
oil companies who really cash in on the futures markets, selling it
between themselves up to 100 times (on paper) before it's sold to the
market (if one article I read was true.)



Liberal politicians get points and votes from the eco terrorists (who
haven't yet figured out it's a net loss of energy) for "going green".

And on and on, ad nauseum.

I think Congress figured this out a long time ago. But nobody wants to
take the ag lobby on.

Uckfay the ag Obbylay.


And the Great Cull -still- hasn't started...

I can't see the population taking to the streets over ethanol subsidies,

No, but that's merely one of 1,000 cuts the bastids wound us with on a
daily basis. I'm wondering which one will finally be the last one to
be accepted before the carnage starts. Which will be the one which
sets us over critical mass?


no matter how foolish. Historically, it took famine to cause the
population to rise in revolt. But our problem is too much food.

I guess fat sheeple aren't revolting.
(Hmm, would that be an oxymoron, a double entendre, or both?)

--
Woe be to him that reads but one book.
-- George Herbert

On May 7, 5:50*pm, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
I have a lawnmower and a snowblower, both from Honda, and both are hard
to start at the beginning of their season. *The lawnmower is the worst
offender, by far, so I'll focus on it.

I would always get the mower going, but it could take all day the first
time. *After that initial difficult start, starting was reasonably easy
for the rest of the season.

I have heard various theories on why this is so:

1. *Gas varnished up over the winter. *I took the carb apart - clean as
a whistle. *Nor did gas stabilizer make any difference.

2. *Water (from condensation) in the gas. *Hmm, hard to do with the 10%
alcohol in all gas available these days.

3. Volatiles evaporating from the gas in the tank over the winter. *
Also, various stories saying that winter gas and summer gas are
different, the difference being how volatile the gas is, with winter
needing more volatile gas than summer. *Hmm, this could be at least part
of an answer.

So, this year, when I first tried to start the lawnmower for the summer,
had the usual problems. *Tried the usual dodges, like leaving the mower
out in the sun to warm up, and putting fresh gas in the tank, but no go.

Volatiles? *Ether! *So, I gave it a squirt of starting fluid. *

Started right up on the first try, and subsequent starts were of normal
difficulty, probably because all the old gas was by then flushed out of
the carb.

So, theory 3 seems to be correct.

And a dash of Naptha in the gas may do the same.

Joe Gwinn

Ran the gas out of mine completely last fall, got some fresh 91 octane
last week, filled the tank, it fired off in three pulls, needed
another pull to keep going. Has a gravity feed tank. I've found 91
octane is needed with the alcohol contaminated gas for it to chop
through the heavier weeds, otherwise it stalls. Difference in
performance is quite noticiable. Briggs engine, about 25 years old.
In the past, if I left gas in it, even if the float bowl was left dry
I'd have to disassemble and hit all the parts with carb cleaner, then
it would run. I also think the alcohol is the reason they're sticking
6 hp engines on the same mowers they used to put 3.5 hp engines. That
and CA smog specs. Either that or the horses have shrunk down.

Stan

wrote:

On May 7, 5:50 pm, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
I have a lawnmower and a snowblower, both from Honda, and both are hard
to start at the beginning of their season. The lawnmower is the worst
offender, by far, so I'll focus on it.

I would always get the mower going, but it could take all day the first
time. After that initial difficult start, starting was reasonably easy
for the rest of the season.

I have heard various theories on why this is so:

1. Gas varnished up over the winter. I took the carb apart - clean as
a whistle. Nor did gas stabilizer make any difference.

2. Water (from condensation) in the gas. Hmm, hard to do with the 10%
alcohol in all gas available these days.

3. Volatiles evaporating from the gas in the tank over the winter.
Also, various stories saying that winter gas and summer gas are
different, the difference being how volatile the gas is, with winter
needing more volatile gas than summer. Hmm, this could be at least part
of an answer.

So, this year, when I first tried to start the lawnmower for the summer,
had the usual problems. Tried the usual dodges, like leaving the mower
out in the sun to warm up, and putting fresh gas in the tank, but no go.

Volatiles? Ether! So, I gave it a squirt of starting fluid.

Started right up on the first try, and subsequent starts were of normal
difficulty, probably because all the old gas was by then flushed out of
the carb.

So, theory 3 seems to be correct.

And a dash of Naptha in the gas may do the same.

Joe Gwinn

Ran the gas out of mine completely last fall, got some fresh 91 octane
last week, filled the tank, it fired off in three pulls, needed
another pull to keep going. Has a gravity feed tank. I've found 91
octane is needed with the alcohol contaminated gas for it to chop
through the heavier weeds, otherwise it stalls. Difference in
performance is quite noticiable. Briggs engine, about 25 years old.
In the past, if I left gas in it, even if the float bowl was left dry
I'd have to disassemble and hit all the parts with carb cleaner, then
it would run. I also think the alcohol is the reason they're sticking
6 hp engines on the same mowers they used to put 3.5 hp engines. That
and CA smog specs. Either that or the horses have shrunk down.

The horses have shrunk down. I think what they were calling a 5 hp was
practically identical to what they sold as 3.5 hp for 50 years. There
was a Nationwide class action lawsuit against B&S. As a consequence they
no longer use hp ratings. They are rated by torque.

-jim



Stan

jim wrote:

The horses have shrunk down. I think what they were calling a 5 hp was
practically identical to what they sold as 3.5 hp for 50 years. There
was a Nationwide class action lawsuit against B&S. As a consequence they
no longer use hp ratings. They are rated by torque.


Now they are just trying to torque us off! ;-)


--
You can't fix stupid. You can't even put a Band-Aid™ on it, because it's
Teflon coated.

On Thu, 12 May 2011 13:15:28 -0500, jim
wrote:

wrote:

On May 7, 5:50 pm, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
I have a lawnmower and a snowblower, both from Honda, and both are hard
to start at the beginning of their season. The lawnmower is the worst
offender, by far, so I'll focus on it.

I would always get the mower going, but it could take all day the first
time. After that initial difficult start, starting was reasonably easy
for the rest of the season.

I have heard various theories on why this is so:

1. Gas varnished up over the winter. I took the carb apart - clean as
a whistle. Nor did gas stabilizer make any difference.

2. Water (from condensation) in the gas. Hmm, hard to do with the 10%
alcohol in all gas available these days.

3. Volatiles evaporating from the gas in the tank over the winter.
Also, various stories saying that winter gas and summer gas are
different, the difference being how volatile the gas is, with winter
needing more volatile gas than summer. Hmm, this could be at least part
of an answer.

So, this year, when I first tried to start the lawnmower for the summer,
had the usual problems. Tried the usual dodges, like leaving the mower
out in the sun to warm up, and putting fresh gas in the tank, but no go.

Volatiles? Ether! So, I gave it a squirt of starting fluid.

Started right up on the first try, and subsequent starts were of normal
difficulty, probably because all the old gas was by then flushed out of
the carb.

So, theory 3 seems to be correct.

And a dash of Naptha in the gas may do the same.

Joe Gwinn

Ran the gas out of mine completely last fall, got some fresh 91 octane
last week, filled the tank, it fired off in three pulls, needed
another pull to keep going. Has a gravity feed tank. I've found 91
octane is needed with the alcohol contaminated gas for it to chop
through the heavier weeds, otherwise it stalls. Difference in
performance is quite noticiable. Briggs engine, about 25 years old.
In the past, if I left gas in it, even if the float bowl was left dry
I'd have to disassemble and hit all the parts with carb cleaner, then
it would run. I also think the alcohol is the reason they're sticking
6 hp engines on the same mowers they used to put 3.5 hp engines. That
and CA smog specs. Either that or the horses have shrunk down.

The horses have shrunk down. I think what they were calling a 5 hp was
practically identical to what they sold as 3.5 hp for 50 years. There
was a Nationwide class action lawsuit against B&S. As a consequence they
no longer use hp ratings. They are rated by torque.

-jim



Stan
The REASON they now sell by torque is the HP rating was at 3600 RPM,
and with the safely regulations today most lawn mowers are running
their engines BELOW that speed - many only 2400 RPM
A 6 hp motor at 3600 rpm is 8.75 ft lbs of torque. At 2400 RPM that's
only something like 4 HP.

wrote:

On Thu, 12 May 2011 13:15:28 -0500, jim
wrote:

wrote:

On May 7, 5:50 pm, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
I have a lawnmower and a snowblower, both from Honda, and both are hard
to start at the beginning of their season. The lawnmower is the worst
offender, by far, so I'll focus on it.

I would always get the mower going, but it could take all day the first
time. After that initial difficult start, starting was reasonably easy
for the rest of the season.

I have heard various theories on why this is so:

1. Gas varnished up over the winter. I took the carb apart - clean as
a whistle. Nor did gas stabilizer make any difference.

2. Water (from condensation) in the gas. Hmm, hard to do with the 10%
alcohol in all gas available these days.

3. Volatiles evaporating from the gas in the tank over the winter.
Also, various stories saying that winter gas and summer gas are
different, the difference being how volatile the gas is, with winter
needing more volatile gas than summer. Hmm, this could be at least part
of an answer.

So, this year, when I first tried to start the lawnmower for the summer,
had the usual problems. Tried the usual dodges, like leaving the mower
out in the sun to warm up, and putting fresh gas in the tank, but no go.

Volatiles? Ether! So, I gave it a squirt of starting fluid.

Started right up on the first try, and subsequent starts were of normal
difficulty, probably because all the old gas was by then flushed out of
the carb.

So, theory 3 seems to be correct.

And a dash of Naptha in the gas may do the same.

Joe Gwinn

Ran the gas out of mine completely last fall, got some fresh 91 octane
last week, filled the tank, it fired off in three pulls, needed
another pull to keep going. Has a gravity feed tank. I've found 91
octane is needed with the alcohol contaminated gas for it to chop
through the heavier weeds, otherwise it stalls. Difference in
performance is quite noticiable. Briggs engine, about 25 years old.
In the past, if I left gas in it, even if the float bowl was left dry
I'd have to disassemble and hit all the parts with carb cleaner, then
it would run. I also think the alcohol is the reason they're sticking
6 hp engines on the same mowers they used to put 3.5 hp engines. That
and CA smog specs. Either that or the horses have shrunk down.

The horses have shrunk down. I think what they were calling a 5 hp was
practically identical to what they sold as 3.5 hp for 50 years. There
was a Nationwide class action lawsuit against B&S. As a consequence they
no longer use hp ratings. They are rated by torque.

-jim



Stan
The REASON they now sell by torque is the HP rating was at 3600 RPM,
and with the safely regulations today most lawn mowers are running
their engines BELOW that speed - many only 2400 RPM
A 6 hp motor at 3600 rpm is 8.75 ft lbs of torque. At 2400 RPM that's
only something like 4 HP.

Briggs was perfectly happy with using horsepower to rate their engines
until they lost 51 million dollars in lawsuits because of proven false
claims regarding horsepower rating. The courts ordered Briggs (and other
small engine companies) to use the SAE standards for torque or
horsepower as determined by an independent test facility for any claims
they make. Previously the companies were just making up power ratings as
they saw fit.

After the court order Briggs quit giving horsepower ratings entirely
rather than put the much lower hp rating back on the same engines as the
court order would have required.

Briggs took what for 50 years they called a 3.5 horsepower and simply
lied and labeled it as a 5 or 6 horsepower. Then when they got caught
they didn't want their fraud to be widely known so they came up with a
story that horsepower is a lousy way to rate engines and torque is a
much better way to rate small engines.

On Thu, 12 May 2011 19:29:43 -0500, jim
wrote:

wrote:

On Thu, 12 May 2011 13:15:28 -0500, jim
wrote:

wrote:

On May 7, 5:50 pm, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
I have a lawnmower and a snowblower, both from Honda, and both are hard
to start at the beginning of their season. The lawnmower is the worst
offender, by far, so I'll focus on it.

I would always get the mower going, but it could take all day the first
time. After that initial difficult start, starting was reasonably easy
for the rest of the season.

I have heard various theories on why this is so:

1. Gas varnished up over the winter. I took the carb apart - clean as
a whistle. Nor did gas stabilizer make any difference.

2. Water (from condensation) in the gas. Hmm, hard to do with the 10%
alcohol in all gas available these days.

3. Volatiles evaporating from the gas in the tank over the winter.
Also, various stories saying that winter gas and summer gas are
different, the difference being how volatile the gas is, with winter
needing more volatile gas than summer. Hmm, this could be at least part
of an answer.

So, this year, when I first tried to start the lawnmower for the summer,
had the usual problems. Tried the usual dodges, like leaving the mower
out in the sun to warm up, and putting fresh gas in the tank, but no go.

Volatiles? Ether! So, I gave it a squirt of starting fluid.

Started right up on the first try, and subsequent starts were of normal
difficulty, probably because all the old gas was by then flushed out of
the carb.

So, theory 3 seems to be correct.

And a dash of Naptha in the gas may do the same.

Joe Gwinn

Ran the gas out of mine completely last fall, got some fresh 91 octane
last week, filled the tank, it fired off in three pulls, needed
another pull to keep going. Has a gravity feed tank. I've found 91
octane is needed with the alcohol contaminated gas for it to chop
through the heavier weeds, otherwise it stalls. Difference in
performance is quite noticiable. Briggs engine, about 25 years old.
In the past, if I left gas in it, even if the float bowl was left dry
I'd have to disassemble and hit all the parts with carb cleaner, then
it would run. I also think the alcohol is the reason they're sticking
6 hp engines on the same mowers they used to put 3.5 hp engines. That
and CA smog specs. Either that or the horses have shrunk down.

The horses have shrunk down. I think what they were calling a 5 hp was
practically identical to what they sold as 3.5 hp for 50 years. There
was a Nationwide class action lawsuit against B&S. As a consequence they
no longer use hp ratings. They are rated by torque.

-jim



Stan
The REASON they now sell by torque is the HP rating was at 3600 RPM,
and with the safely regulations today most lawn mowers are running
their engines BELOW that speed - many only 2400 RPM
A 6 hp motor at 3600 rpm is 8.75 ft lbs of torque. At 2400 RPM that's
only something like 4 HP.

Briggs was perfectly happy with using horsepower to rate their engines
until they lost 51 million dollars in lawsuits because of proven false
claims regarding horsepower rating. The courts ordered Briggs (and other
small engine companies) to use the SAE standards for torque or
horsepower as determined by an independent test facility for any claims
they make. Previously the companies were just making up power ratings as
they saw fit.

After the court order Briggs quit giving horsepower ratings entirely
rather than put the much lower hp rating back on the same engines as the
court order would have required.

Briggs took what for 50 years they called a 3.5 horsepower and simply
lied and labeled it as a 5 or 6 horsepower. Then when they got caught
they didn't want their fraud to be widely known so they came up with a
story that horsepower is a lousy way to rate engines and torque is a
much better way to rate small engines.
From what I've read / heard, you are blowing more smoke than a 15
year old Briggs.
Yes, the manufacturers were sued - but they were not NECESSARILY
deceptive in their ratings. The engines WERE rated at a given stated
RPM - and if run at that RPM with the torque ratings currently on the
engines they WOULD produce (in most cases) the advertized horsepower.

If you take the torque available at whatever RPM the engine is run at
and multiply the two, then devide by 5252, you get the horsepower.

Look at the Torque rating of any engine out there today, and multiply
it by 3600, then devide by 5252, and you will find the result is
extremely close to the HP the engine was formerly advertized/sold
with.

The ONLY engine description that cannot be argued is DISPLACEMENT -
which is more and more becoming the standard way to advertize small
engines. This rating still does not tell you a whole lot, because the
power differs greatly depending on the engine design. Your weed eater,
leaf blower, chain-saw etc will have a 30cc, 35cc, or 40cc etc
engine., which may be producing , say 5HP from 40cc at 6000 RPM. (4 ft
lbs of torque at 6000 RPM - being a 2 stroke engine) Your lawnmower
may have a 135 cc or 8.24 cubic inches 4 stroke- roughly 3.5HP at 3600
RPM.. A 5HP L-Head Briggs was 12.5 cubic inches, or 204 cc. The same
displacement OHV Intek engine is a 6.5HP engine at the same 3600 RPM
due to higher volumetric efficiency and higher compression ratio. This
translates to about 9.5 ft lbs torque at 3600 RPM - and the engine
LIKELY produces a peak torque of about11 ft lb at 2400 RPM (5 HP),
while the L- Head 5HP engine likely produced a peak HP of about 9.5ft
lb at 2400, for a HP of about 4.25, and 7.2 ft lbs at 3600, for the
5HP rating.

The torque drops off with speed due to poor breathing (volumetric
efficiency) - the carting guys tune the intakes and exhausts to
improve the efficiency, which increases the torque at higher speeds -
producing more HP.

On May 7, 6:50*pm, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
I have a lawnmower and a snowblower, both from Honda, and both are hard
to start at the beginning of their season. *The lawnmower is the worst
offender, by far, so I'll focus on it.

I would always get the mower going, but it could take all day the first
time. *After that initial difficult start, starting was reasonably easy
for the rest of the season.

I have heard various theories on why this is so:

1. *Gas varnished up over the winter. *I took the carb apart - clean as
a whistle. *Nor did gas stabilizer make any difference.

2. *Water (from condensation) in the gas. *Hmm, hard to do with the 10%
alcohol in all gas available these days.

3. Volatiles evaporating from the gas in the tank over the winter. *
Also, various stories saying that winter gas and summer gas are
different, the difference being how volatile the gas is, with winter
needing more volatile gas than summer. *Hmm, this could be at least part
of an answer.

So, this year, when I first tried to start the lawnmower for the summer,
had the usual problems. *Tried the usual dodges, like leaving the mower
out in the sun to warm up, and putting fresh gas in the tank, but no go.

Volatiles? *Ether! *So, I gave it a squirt of starting fluid. *

Started right up on the first try, and subsequent starts were of normal
difficulty, probably because all the old gas was by then flushed out of
the carb.

So, theory 3 seems to be correct.

And a dash of Naptha in the gas may do the same.

Joe Gwinn

I like to run my small engines dry at the end of the season (like Pete
C.). I worked for a small company that made material for carburetor
gaskets (among other things) and we use to test gaskets in solvent to
see how much they curled. I found that some gaskets are designed with
U-shaped cuts in them so the flap acts as a check valve. If the
rubber deforms in that area, the check valve no longer works properly
and you have problems.
My old boss liked to say that usually if you have a problem with an
engine, it's probably related to something made of rubber.

In article
,
"Denis G." wrote:

On May 7, 6:50*pm, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
I have a lawnmower and a snowblower, both from Honda, and both are hard
to start at the beginning of their season. *The lawnmower is the worst
offender, by far, so I'll focus on it.

I would always get the mower going, but it could take all day the first
time. *After that initial difficult start, starting was reasonably easy
for the rest of the season.

I have heard various theories on why this is so:

1. *Gas varnished up over the winter. *I took the carb apart - clean as
a whistle. *Nor did gas stabilizer make any difference.

2. *Water (from condensation) in the gas. *Hmm, hard to do with the 10%
alcohol in all gas available these days.

3. Volatiles evaporating from the gas in the tank over the winter. *
Also, various stories saying that winter gas and summer gas are
different, the difference being how volatile the gas is, with winter
needing more volatile gas than summer. *Hmm, this could be at least part
of an answer.

So, this year, when I first tried to start the lawnmower for the summer,
had the usual problems. *Tried the usual dodges, like leaving the mower
out in the sun to warm up, and putting fresh gas in the tank, but no go.

Volatiles? *Ether! *So, I gave it a squirt of starting fluid. *

Started right up on the first try, and subsequent starts were of normal
difficulty, probably because all the old gas was by then flushed out of
the carb.

So, theory 3 seems to be correct.

And a dash of Naptha in the gas may do the same.

Joe Gwinn

I like to run my small engines dry at the end of the season (like Pete
C.). I worked for a small company that made material for carburetor
gaskets (among other things) and we use to test gaskets in solvent to
see how much they curled. I found that some gaskets are designed with
U-shaped cuts in them so the flap acts as a check valve. If the
rubber deforms in that area, the check valve no longer works properly
and you have problems.
My old boss liked to say that usually if you have a problem with an
engine, it's probably related to something made of rubber.

In support of your old boss, I did have to replace the carb on the Honda
because the original model couldn't handle the ethanol now in gas. And,
yes, it was the rubber that went. The dealer said that they had has a
rash of such failures. The new carb wasn't too bad, about $15 if memory
serves.

Joe Gwinn

On May 7, 4:50*pm, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
I have a lawnmower and a snowblower, both from Honda, and both are hard
to start at the beginning of their season. *The lawnmower is the worst
offender, by far, so I'll focus on it.

I would always get the mower going, but it could take all day the first
time. *After that initial difficult start, starting was reasonably easy
for the rest of the season.

I have heard various theories on why this is so:

1. *Gas varnished up over the winter. *I took the carb apart - clean as
a whistle. *Nor did gas stabilizer make any difference.

2. *Water (from condensation) in the gas. *Hmm, hard to do with the 10%
alcohol in all gas available these days.

3. Volatiles evaporating from the gas in the tank over the winter. *
Also, various stories saying that winter gas and summer gas are
different, the difference being how volatile the gas is, with winter
needing more volatile gas than summer. *Hmm, this could be at least part
of an answer.

So, this year, when I first tried to start the lawnmower for the summer,
had the usual problems. *Tried the usual dodges, like leaving the mower
out in the sun to warm up, and putting fresh gas in the tank, but no go.

Volatiles? *Ether! *So, I gave it a squirt of starting fluid. *

Started right up on the first try, and subsequent starts were of normal
difficulty, probably because all the old gas was by then flushed out of
the carb.

So, theory 3 seems to be correct.

And a dash of Naptha in the gas may do the same.

. Joe Gwinn

Here is what I found. One of my mowers has a Briggs and Stratton
engine with a plastic diaphram carb and a primer. I have rebuilt the
carb cleaned the tank, changed the plug and the oil and it is a pig to
start cold. Once warm however it restarts easy.

My other two mowers have Tecumseh engines. I added a fuel shut off
valve and an inline filter below the carb to trap any water. With
clean carbs these start cold really well. 5 squirts on the primer and
away she goes. Unless of course I have run it dry then it takes a bit
2-3 attempts to start.

Champion has a new plug out now touted as the "one tug plug" more
resistant to fouling and a more focused spark is the claim. About 2
bucks more than the standard plug, might be worth a try.

One of these days I am going to modify an engine to make the spark
timing adjustable. I suspect that a little more retard on the spark
will make it easier to start, after all it worked on the model T.

Naptha in the tank would probably make the gas more volatile, but it
would also cause pre-ignition of the fuel and that would be awfully
rough on these little engines with no bearings, so you might need a
start tank and a run tank, not easy if you have a tank mounted carb.

Roger Shoaf

In article
,
RS at work wrote:

On May 7, 4:50*pm, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
I have a lawnmower and a snowblower, both from Honda, and both are hard
to start at the beginning of their season. *The lawnmower is the worst
offender, by far, so I'll focus on it.

I would always get the mower going, but it could take all day the first
time. *After that initial difficult start, starting was reasonably easy
for the rest of the season.

I have heard various theories on why this is so:

1. *Gas varnished up over the winter. *I took the carb apart - clean as
a whistle. *Nor did gas stabilizer make any difference.

2. *Water (from condensation) in the gas. *Hmm, hard to do with the 10%
alcohol in all gas available these days.

3. Volatiles evaporating from the gas in the tank over the winter. *
Also, various stories saying that winter gas and summer gas are
different, the difference being how volatile the gas is, with winter
needing more volatile gas than summer. *Hmm, this could be at least part
of an answer.

So, this year, when I first tried to start the lawnmower for the summer,
had the usual problems. *Tried the usual dodges, like leaving the mower
out in the sun to warm up, and putting fresh gas in the tank, but no go.

Volatiles? *Ether! *So, I gave it a squirt of starting fluid. *

Started right up on the first try, and subsequent starts were of normal
difficulty, probably because all the old gas was by then flushed out of
the carb.

So, theory 3 seems to be correct.

And a dash of Naptha in the gas may do the same.

. Joe Gwinn

Here is what I found. One of my mowers has a Briggs and Stratton
engine with a plastic diaphram carb and a primer. I have rebuilt the
carb cleaned the tank, changed the plug and the oil and it is a pig to
start cold. Once warm however it restarts easy.

My other two mowers have Tecumseh engines. I added a fuel shut off
valve and an inline filter below the carb to trap any water. With
clean carbs these start cold really well. 5 squirts on the primer and
away she goes. Unless of course I have run it dry then it takes a bit
2-3 attempts to start.

I have had mowers with these engines, and never had any trouble starting
them, so I never needed to become creative.

Although my first Briggs and Stratton was when I was maybe 15, and I
learned about small engines on that mower engine. I didn't fancy going
back to a push mower, and my father was willing to buy any parts I
needed, so that mower got all the repair it needed. I even did valve
jobs on it.


Champion has a new plug out now touted as the "one tug plug" more
resistant to fouling and a more focused spark is the claim. About 2
bucks more than the standard plug, might be worth a try.

This appears to be it:

http://www.federalmogul.com/en/After...merica/Service
Solutions/Products/ChampionSparkPlugs/Lawn-Garden/

Although my problems with starting the Honda have never been solved by
replacing the sparkplug.


One of these days I am going to modify an engine to make the spark
timing adjustable. I suspect that a little more retard on the spark
will make it easier to start, after all it worked on the model T.

At least on the Honda, the advance is adjustable as a repair activity,
so one could certainly retard the spark a bit. But it would stay that
way.


Naptha in the tank would probably make the gas more volatile, but it
would also cause pre-ignition of the fuel and that would be awfully
rough on these little engines with no bearings, so you might need a
start tank and a run tank, not easy if you have a tank mounted carb.

Gasoline already has some naptha in it - the question is how much. There
should be a happy medium.


Joe Gwinn