cavelamb wrote:
Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sat, 28 Nov 2009 16:37:01 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:

Ignoramus11641 wrote:
I can even open cans with a bayonet. (which is what bayonets are
mostly for).

No, they are for disemboweling the enemy. Of course you couldn't
possible know that.


But...as a side utility..they do work as an impromptu kan opener.

The 3 fingered flash suppressor on the early M16s was to keep the
flash of the weapon out of your aiming line of sight. The secondary
utility was for busting the strapping on C-rat cases.

Then the *******s changed the design...sigh


Gunner

"Aren't cats Libertarian? They just want to be left alone.
I think our dog is a Democrat, as he is always looking for a handout"
Unknown Usnet Poster

Heh, heh, I'm pretty sure my dog is a liberal - he has no balls.
Keyton


I played with my neighbor's M16 a while back.
It was one of those new fangled heavy barrel things.
I didn't much care fore it.

Yeah, but they go off every time you pull the trigger, unlike an M4.


--
John R. Carroll

Jim Stewart wrote:
Steve W. wrote:

Just had another case of MREs dropped today. Have to rotate the stock. I
will say the new menu for 09 is pretty good, they are now up to 24
different entree's. Many of which are actually edible.

Where do you get them?

Depends on what I'm looking for, I have both "civilian" MREs and GI
issue stuff. The Civi stuff I get through Sopakco (Sure-Pak 12)
They also make GI MREs so you get a lot of the same items EXCEPT they
offer meals YOU choose. MREDepot.com also carries Menu-C MREs and those
are basically military MREs that were ordered for a contractor in Iraq
who then backed out of the deal. Those also have a somewhat better
selection of entrees.

http://theepicenter.com/mre_military...dy_to_eat.html
has the Sopakco civies.

For real GI stuff I hit Ebay or a friend who runs a surplus outfit. This
last case came off EBay and has a pack date of 6/09. They are now in
cold storage until needed. If you can keep them at 30 degrees or so they
will last about 12 years.


--
Steve W.

Ignoramus10998 wrote:

On 2009-11-28, Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Ignoramus11641 wrote:

I can even open cans with a bayonet. (which is what bayonets are
mostly for).

No, they are for disemboweling the enemy. Of course you couldn't
possible know that.

Well, I opened cans with a bayonet, and neither you nor I disemboweled
anyone with a bayonet. Right or wrong?


I was never in battle, but I was trained by the US Army how to do
it. Not that you would understand the difference. Does the term 'Affix
bayonets' mean anything to you?


--
The movie 'Deliverance' isn't a documentary!

cavelamb wrote:

Steve Ackman wrote:
In , on Fri, 27 Nov 2009 22:16:44 -0500, Steve
W., wrote:

Well I decided to try it myself. Grabbed a standard can of tuna (no C
sauce left), laid my Mechanics model Victorinox knife down and started
the clock.

48 seconds to open the can.

I don't think you beat the Army guy on Leno. 48
seconds is pitful! ;-)

I just did a large can (4" dia.) of tamales in less
than 30 seconds using the can opener on my Leatherman.
Could have done it in half that time easily with a
P-38. Probably 70% of that for a normal sized can.


I have a special P-38 on my key chain and use it regularly.

IT was the last of the 6 P-38s in my last case of C-Rats
in 1969. I've used this particular P-38 for 40 years.
(Holy time warp, Batman!)

It's still sharp.

Together we can open a can in 10 or 15 seconds.
Not much slower than crank type and a heck of a lot
more convenient than an electric.


My last P38 finally wore so bad that it fell off my keyring.


--
The movie 'Deliverance' isn't a documentary!

"John R. Carroll" wrote:

Jim Wilkins wrote:
On Nov 28, 9:11 pm, "John R. Carroll" wrote:
Wes wrote:
...

I think it's a problem for everyone except cable and satellite
service providers.
John R. Carroll

I can pick up the same Boston area stations as before, plus new -2, -3
etc channels from PBS.

I used to watch Charlie Rose every night, that and "Everybody Loves
Raymond". No more.
11,13, 7,9 28, 56 and 58 are gone. No more "Frontline" or "Nova"
either.......
I don't even get an ABC affiliate anymore.

All I lost was DX'ing the analog VHF ones 100+
miles away, like Portland ME and Hartford CT.

I get a bunch of Spanish language programming.
That, NBC and ION are about it.
Something else is a little strange. I have to rescan a couple times per day
to keep CBS.


I lost all the OTA channels when they made the switch.


--
The movie 'Deliverance' isn't a documentary!

John R. Carroll wrote:
cavelamb wrote:
Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sat, 28 Nov 2009 16:37:01 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:

Ignoramus11641 wrote:
I can even open cans with a bayonet. (which is what bayonets are
mostly for).
No, they are for disemboweling the enemy. Of course you couldn't
possible know that.

But...as a side utility..they do work as an impromptu kan opener.

The 3 fingered flash suppressor on the early M16s was to keep the
flash of the weapon out of your aiming line of sight. The secondary
utility was for busting the strapping on C-rat cases.

Then the *******s changed the design...sigh


Gunner

"Aren't cats Libertarian? They just want to be left alone.
I think our dog is a Democrat, as he is always looking for a handout"
Unknown Usnet Poster

Heh, heh, I'm pretty sure my dog is a liberal - he has no balls.
Keyton

I played with my neighbor's M16 a while back.
It was one of those new fangled heavy barrel things.
I didn't much care fore it.

Yeah, but they go off every time you pull the trigger, unlike an M4.


There is that, of course...

My personal piece, If I can pick anything I want would be a match
grade M14 - big, heavy, clunky, old fashioned.

But it's one hell of a punch when you need one.

On 2009-11-29, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Ignoramus10998 wrote:

On 2009-11-28, Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Ignoramus11641 wrote:

I can even open cans with a bayonet. (which is what bayonets are
mostly for).

No, they are for disemboweling the enemy. Of course you couldn't
possible know that.

Well, I opened cans with a bayonet, and neither you nor I disemboweled
anyone with a bayonet. Right or wrong?

I was never in battle, but I was trained by the US Army how to do
it.

Hm, and they told you that bayonets are for "disemboweling"?

Not that you would understand the difference. Does the term 'Affix
bayonets' mean anything to you?

I have never been taught how to use them, but I was taught how to
affix them. In any case, I am not sure whether disemboweling people
with the bayonet attached to a rifle, is very practicable. Maybe
someone could shed light on that.

i

Ignoramus10998 wrote:
On 2009-11-29, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Ignoramus10998 wrote:

On 2009-11-28, Michael A. Terrell
wrote:
Ignoramus11641 wrote:

I can even open cans with a bayonet. (which is what bayonets are
mostly for).

No, they are for disemboweling the enemy. Of course you
couldn't possible know that.

Well, I opened cans with a bayonet, and neither you nor I
disemboweled anyone with a bayonet. Right or wrong?

I was never in battle, but I was trained by the US Army how to do
it.

Hm, and they told you that bayonets are for "disemboweling"?

Not that you would understand the difference. Does the term 'Affix
bayonets' mean anything to you?

I have never been taught how to use them, but I was taught how to
affix them. In any case, I am not sure whether disemboweling people
with the bayonet attached to a rifle, is very practicable. Maybe
someone could shed light on that.

The most effective disemboweling tool the Army ever possessed, and still
does, is a radio.
That currently would be either the AN/PRC-117F or my personal favorite, the
AN/PRC-152

Older comm gear wasn't as reliable but was none the less extremely dangerous
when employed properly.
It also made a decent head rest.

--
John R. Carroll

Ignoramus10998 wrote:
On 2009-11-29, Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Ignoramus10998 wrote:
On 2009-11-28, Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Ignoramus11641 wrote:
I can even open cans with a bayonet. (which is what bayonets are
mostly for).
No, they are for disemboweling the enemy. Of course you couldn't
possible know that.
Well, I opened cans with a bayonet, and neither you nor I disemboweled
anyone with a bayonet. Right or wrong?
I was never in battle, but I was trained by the US Army how to do
it.

Hm, and they told you that bayonets are for "disemboweling"?

Bayonets in actual battle use are the absolute weapon of last resort.
However the way that your taught to use them is to stab at the center of
mass and use the rifles weight to aid your thrust into the vitals. Then
you let the weight drop while you pull the bayonet out. Done correctly
it leaves a LARGE belly wound so that you can actually let that enemy
drop behind you.


Not that you would understand the difference. Does the term 'Affix
bayonets' mean anything to you?

I have never been taught how to use them, but I was taught how to
affix them. In any case, I am not sure whether disemboweling people
with the bayonet attached to a rifle, is very practicable. Maybe
someone could shed light on that.

Actually it isn't real hard, Keep in mind that a bayonet that has seen
use won't have a very sharp edge. The weight of the rifle behind it
helps it to penetrate farther faster. With the current bladed bayonets
you have a LOT more of a chance of doing damage.

Now if you REALLY want to open up the belly you don't use the standard
thrust motion taught in basic or AIT. You use a can opener move that
actually uses the rifle as a lever. In that you turn the rifle on it's
side. Stab it into the target, then as you come close to the target you
step to the side and pull the rifle/bayonet around and out behind you.
Instead of the 3-4" cut you get the other way you end up with a 6-10
inch open gash that really opens them up.


--
Steve W.

On Sat, 28 Nov 2009 15:50:40 -0800, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:

Jim Wilkins wrote:
On Nov 28, 5:54 pm, Wes wrote:

Outside of a RF reciever, most televisions don't work the same as
they did when I was a kid.

They did go digital recently.

Downconvert, digitize, the rest is software.

I'd be interested in hearing about that.
I've gone from 30 decent channels to six poor ones.
Is that a matter of content or signal quality?
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada

Ignoramus10998 wrote:

On 2009-11-29, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Ignoramus10998 wrote:

On 2009-11-28, Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Ignoramus11641 wrote:

I can even open cans with a bayonet. (which is what bayonets are
mostly for).

No, they are for disemboweling the enemy. Of course you couldn't
possible know that.

Well, I opened cans with a bayonet, and neither you nor I disemboweled
anyone with a bayonet. Right or wrong?

I was never in battle, but I was trained by the US Army how to do
it.

Hm, and they told you that bayonets are for "disemboweling"?


It's a quick way to kill someone up close, when yo either have to
keep quiet, or are out of ammo. Shove it in, twist, and jerk it out.
Some of the intestines follow the bayonet as it is pulled out. It's not
as fast as a bullet, but the chances of living aren't much better than
being shot. It's not something for people with a weak stomach to have
to do.


Not that you would understand the difference. Does the term 'Affix
bayonets' mean anything to you?

I have never been taught how to use them, but I was taught how to
affix them. In any case, I am not sure whether disemboweling people
with the bayonet attached to a rifle, is very practicable. Maybe
someone could shed light on that.

i


--
The movie 'Deliverance' isn't a documentary!

On Sat, 28 Nov 2009 11:17:14 +0000, Mark Rand
wrote:

On Sat, 28 Nov 2009 03:56:46 -0500, "Steve W." wrote:


The P-51 I have works easier BUT it's also larger than the 38. One I
used to have around was even smaller than the 38, came with a brand of
sardines I used to get.



I was a bit taken aback...

Isn't it overkill to use a fighter plane to open a can of tuna??

How much tuna is left in the can afterwards?


I have, on many occasions, used a sharp 2 pound axe to open cans; much
easier on the axe than using my skinning knife, safer too. I still
have the two axes my Dad and I carried on the trap line 50+ years ago.
Much easier to sharpen the axes with an angle grinder now than with
the hand cranked bench grinder I used to use!
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada

Gerald Miller wrote:
On Sat, 28 Nov 2009 15:50:40 -0800, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:

Jim Wilkins wrote:
On Nov 28, 5:54 pm, Wes wrote:

Outside of a RF reciever, most televisions don't work the same as
they did when I was a kid.

They did go digital recently.

Downconvert, digitize, the rest is software.

I'd be interested in hearing about that.
I've gone from 30 decent channels to six poor ones.
Is that a matter of content or signal quality?

Both.
Digital doesn't fade in or out the way analogue did. "Static" manifests as a
screen lock up and it's much more annoying than poor picture quality. The
stuff Bill Moyers does for PBS is real journalism. I miss being able to
watch it on the television.
Fortunately, it's all on the net.



--
John R. Carroll

On Sat, 28 Nov 2009 23:13:01 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


"John R. Carroll" wrote:

Jim Wilkins wrote:
On Nov 28, 9:11 pm, "John R. Carroll" wrote:
Wes wrote:
...

I think it's a problem for everyone except cable and satellite
service providers.
John R. Carroll

I can pick up the same Boston area stations as before, plus new -2, -3
etc channels from PBS.

I used to watch Charlie Rose every night, that and "Everybody Loves
Raymond". No more.
11,13, 7,9 28, 56 and 58 are gone. No more "Frontline" or "Nova"
either.......
I don't even get an ABC affiliate anymore.

All I lost was DX'ing the analog VHF ones 100+
miles away, like Portland ME and Hartford CT.

I get a bunch of Spanish language programming.
That, NBC and ION are about it.
Something else is a little strange. I have to rescan a couple times per day
to keep CBS.


I lost all the OTA channels when they made the switch.

I gained 7 channels when we went to digital on the local antenna.
Unfortunately they are Spanish...shrug

Gunner

"Aren't cats Libertarian? They just want to be left alone.
I think our dog is a Democrat, as he is always looking for a handout"
Unknown Usnet Poster

Heh, heh, I'm pretty sure my dog is a liberal - he has no balls.
Keyton

On Sat, 28 Nov 2009 18:29:45 -0600, "Up North"
wrote:


"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 27 Nov 2009 20:14:24 -0600, "Pete C."
wrote:


Jim Stewart wrote:

Michael Koblic wrote:
I saw an interesting event on Jay Jeno last night: Memebrs of the five
armed
services were trying to open a can of cranberry sauce using a Swiss
army
knife. It was horrible. None of them seemed to have a clear idea how
to use
the can opener attachment, in fact I am pretty sure some of them used
the
wrong attachment. Four of them managed eventually at a cost of some
injuries
and the cans were mangled. One failed to empty the can in the alloted
time.

I wondered about the implications: Is this a reflection on general
population's unfamiliarity with a can opener? Is this a reflection on
basic
training? Is it because the knife was *Swiss*? It cannot be because
the
knife was *Army* as I believe it was the Army guy who failed. I
hesitate to
cite stress affecting the performance of members of fighitng forces.

Would members of the Special Forces have done better? One of the guys
made a
creditable effort to rip the can open with his bare hands but with a
minimum
result. How would the US Armed forces stack up against, say, the Brits
or
the Russians?

Is this something to be concerned about? Do I have too much time on my
hands?

We all probably have too much time on our hands
so I'll let that slide.

Any pre-gulf war vet would have used a P-38 to
open his/her C-rations and would be able to
figure out the knife. I hope.

I was shocked to learn that some of my daugher's
high school friends were never allowed to use
kitchen knives.

I'm guessing that the whole concept of tool-using
is slowly bleeding out of a large portion of the
population. Cars neither need nor are easy to
repair. Most products are cheaper to throw away
than to fix. How many *hundreds* of old collected
sets of tools end up at the flea market, presumably
because their new owner had no use for them.

For example, most people used to at least have
a clue as to how a television works. I think
that if you asked most young people, you'd get
a one word answer, LED or LCL or plasma.

The military is having a hard time attracting
enough smart and educated recruits. This is not
meant to disparage our troops, but OTOH, there's
not a lot of kids going into the military to learn
a civilian trade any more.

Oh well, just means us old farts will have some
value in the next 20 or 30 years.

The biggest issue this points out is the lack of basic mechanical
aptitude and problem solving skills. Even if all these troops have seen
are tear to open MREs, they should be able to look at the can, look at
the options on the knife and use basic mechanical problem solving skills
to figure it out.

The sad fact is that a large portion of our volunteer troops come from
backgrounds where religious indoctrination took precedence over basic
education - not unlike the enemy they are currently fighting.


You are confusing something..most of these kids are conservative and
largely from rural areas..so they are head and hands smarter and better
educatied than city kids.

Are you saying that the kid that just put the carby out of a 72 Poncho
into his 89 Poncho cant figure out how to open an MRE?


Why would a smart kid want to take the fuel injection off a car and put a
carb on it? I think the smart ones are putting FI where a carb used to live.
Steve

Shrug...after an EMP event..one should know how to do exactly that.

Gunner

"Aren't cats Libertarian? They just want to be left alone.
I think our dog is a Democrat, as he is always looking for a handout"
Unknown Usnet Poster

Heh, heh, I'm pretty sure my dog is a liberal - he has no balls.
Keyton

On Sat, 28 Nov 2009 20:27:37 -0600, Ignoramus10998
wrote:

On 2009-11-28, Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Ignoramus11641 wrote:

I can even open cans with a bayonet. (which is what bayonets are
mostly for).

No, they are for disemboweling the enemy. Of course you couldn't
possible know that.

Well, I opened cans with a bayonet, and neither you nor I disemboweled
anyone with a bayonet. Right or wrong?

i


Well.......shrug


Gunner

"Aren't cats Libertarian? They just want to be left alone.
I think our dog is a Democrat, as he is always looking for a handout"
Unknown Usnet Poster

Heh, heh, I'm pretty sure my dog is a liberal - he has no balls.
Keyton

On Sat, 28 Nov 2009 22:39:21 -0600, Ignoramus10998
wrote:

On 2009-11-29, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Ignoramus10998 wrote:

On 2009-11-28, Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Ignoramus11641 wrote:

I can even open cans with a bayonet. (which is what bayonets are
mostly for).

No, they are for disemboweling the enemy. Of course you couldn't
possible know that.

Well, I opened cans with a bayonet, and neither you nor I disemboweled
anyone with a bayonet. Right or wrong?

I was never in battle, but I was trained by the US Army how to do
it.

Hm, and they told you that bayonets are for "disemboweling"?

Not that you would understand the difference. Does the term 'Affix
bayonets' mean anything to you?

I have never been taught how to use them, but I was taught how to
affix them. In any case, I am not sure whether disemboweling people
with the bayonet attached to a rifle, is very practicable. Maybe
someone could shed light on that.

i

Its very effective. Trust me


Gunner

"Aren't cats Libertarian? They just want to be left alone.
I think our dog is a Democrat, as he is always looking for a handout"
Unknown Usnet Poster

Heh, heh, I'm pretty sure my dog is a liberal - he has no balls.
Keyton

On Sat, 28 Nov 2009 20:28:36 -0600, Ignoramus10998
wrote:

On 2009-11-28, Wes wrote:
Ignoramus11641 wrote:
I can even open cans with a bayonet. (which is what bayonets are
mostly for).

Most soviet bayonets were only useful for tent spikes or sticking people.

Soviet bayonets can also cut wire.

i
So can a bullet

Gunner

"Aren't cats Libertarian? They just want to be left alone.
I think our dog is a Democrat, as he is always looking for a handout"
Unknown Usnet Poster

Heh, heh, I'm pretty sure my dog is a liberal - he has no balls.
Keyton

On Sat, 28 Nov 2009 16:27:57 -0700, Steve Ackman
wrote:

In , on Fri, 27 Nov 2009 17:06:25
-0800, Michael Koblic, wrote:
I saw an interesting event on Jay Jeno last night: Memebrs of the five armed
services were trying to open a can of cranberry sauce using a Swiss army
knife. It was horrible. None of them seemed to have a clear idea how to use
the can opener attachment, in fact I am pretty sure some of them used the
wrong attachment. Four of them managed eventually at a cost of some injuries
and the cans were mangled.

It was Air Force who cut himself. "Anything to win,"
was his quip. Incidentally, he WAS the one to win the
race and the car... though for those who didn't see it,
he didn't win the car for himself, but for a randomly
selected member of his branch.

One failed to empty the can in the alloted time.

That was the whole point. The last one to empty the
contents was eliminated from the competition. By
definition the slowest didn't finish in time.

I wondered about the implications: Is this a reflection on general
population's unfamiliarity with a can opener? Is this a reflection on basic
training? Is it because the knife was *Swiss*? It cannot be because the
knife was *Army* as I believe it was the Army guy who failed. I hesitate to
cite stress affecting the performance of members of fighitng forces.

It wasn't the Army guy who failed because he was in
the footrace against the Air Force guy. I *think* it
was the Navy guy who failed.

Would members of the Special Forces have done better? One of the guys made a
creditable effort to rip the can open with his bare hands but with a minimum
result.

The guy using "his bare hands" had already opened the
can about 5/8 of the way around. He was using his hands
to try to bend the lid up and out of the way so he could
empty the cranberry sauce onto the plate. He's one who
did NOT cut himself, strangely enough. Pretty sure he
was first, and Army.

Is this something to be concerned about?

Maybe.

Do I have too much time on my hands?

Probably.

I laughed with incredulity, but come to think of it,
none of these guys has ever seen a C-ration. Guess
there's no reason for them to know how to operate a
field can opener.
The thing that gets me is the "safety" side cut can opener in the
kitchen drawer. Why is it safer to have a sharp edge of the can
surrounding the contents you are digging at, rather than on the metal
disk you are tossing into the trash; this assumes that you don't make
a habit of licking the lids clean before you toss them.
To my mind, they advertise these because they are made to a lower
standard of accuracy than the old top cut opener.
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada

On Nov 29, 12:42*am, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:

* *It's a quick way to kill someone up close, when yo either have to
keep quiet, or are out of ammo.

Bayonets let you control captives with graded, non-lethal force backed
by a bullet if necessary.

I've read that they are a preferred weapon for close-up, nighttime
furball fights when you can't identify friend from foe at any
distance. In Herbert McBride's WW1 autobio the trench-raiding machine
gunners would bring only their spare barrels to use as clubs. They
wanted live prisoners to interrogate.

jsw

And, what happens when we invade a country which uses cans?
Troops run out of MRE and starve to death surrounded by
captured warehouse of canned food?

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Michael Koblic" wrote in message
...


I understand that the current form of rations (MREs?) do not
contain cans
and, as someone pointed out, rightly so: They have other
things to worry
about. However, the rub of that argument is that
overdependence on issue
rations may not be a good thing in the "fog of war"
situation. The extreme
is to say that if not issued with MREs the troops would
starve. The opposite
of that is the Russian guerilla cavalry in WW2 who generally
managed with a
bagful of vegetables scrounged off the land for 3 weeks at a
time.

Many have commented on the possible reason of this state of
affairs and
there is probably a bit of truth in all of them. I just
could not get away
from explaining how single young men survive without opening
cans. Then it
came to me: Take-out meals!

--
Michael Koblic
Campbell River, BC

"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 28 Nov 2009 18:29:45 -0600, "Up North"
wrote:


"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
. ..
On Fri, 27 Nov 2009 20:14:24 -0600, "Pete C."
wrote:


Jim Stewart wrote:

Michael Koblic wrote:
I saw an interesting event on Jay Jeno last night: Memebrs of the
five
armed
services were trying to open a can of cranberry sauce using a Swiss
army
knife. It was horrible. None of them seemed to have a clear idea how
to use
the can opener attachment, in fact I am pretty sure some of them
used
the
wrong attachment. Four of them managed eventually at a cost of some
injuries
and the cans were mangled. One failed to empty the can in the
alloted
time.

I wondered about the implications: Is this a reflection on general
population's unfamiliarity with a can opener? Is this a reflection
on
basic
training? Is it because the knife was *Swiss*? It cannot be because
the
knife was *Army* as I believe it was the Army guy who failed. I
hesitate to
cite stress affecting the performance of members of fighitng forces.

Would members of the Special Forces have done better? One of the
guys
made a
creditable effort to rip the can open with his bare hands but with a
minimum
result. How would the US Armed forces stack up against, say, the
Brits
or
the Russians?

Is this something to be concerned about? Do I have too much time on
my
hands?

We all probably have too much time on our hands
so I'll let that slide.

Any pre-gulf war vet would have used a P-38 to
open his/her C-rations and would be able to
figure out the knife. I hope.

I was shocked to learn that some of my daugher's
high school friends were never allowed to use
kitchen knives.

I'm guessing that the whole concept of tool-using
is slowly bleeding out of a large portion of the
population. Cars neither need nor are easy to
repair. Most products are cheaper to throw away
than to fix. How many *hundreds* of old collected
sets of tools end up at the flea market, presumably
because their new owner had no use for them.

For example, most people used to at least have
a clue as to how a television works. I think
that if you asked most young people, you'd get
a one word answer, LED or LCL or plasma.

The military is having a hard time attracting
enough smart and educated recruits. This is not
meant to disparage our troops, but OTOH, there's
not a lot of kids going into the military to learn
a civilian trade any more.

Oh well, just means us old farts will have some
value in the next 20 or 30 years.

The biggest issue this points out is the lack of basic mechanical
aptitude and problem solving skills. Even if all these troops have seen
are tear to open MREs, they should be able to look at the can, look at
the options on the knife and use basic mechanical problem solving skills
to figure it out.

The sad fact is that a large portion of our volunteer troops come from
backgrounds where religious indoctrination took precedence over basic
education - not unlike the enemy they are currently fighting.


You are confusing something..most of these kids are conservative and
largely from rural areas..so they are head and hands smarter and better
educatied than city kids.

Are you saying that the kid that just put the carby out of a 72 Poncho
into his 89 Poncho cant figure out how to open an MRE?


Why would a smart kid want to take the fuel injection off a car and put a
carb on it? I think the smart ones are putting FI where a carb used to
live.
Steve

Shrug...after an EMP event..one should know how to do exactly that.

Gunner

In that case you want a 240D with a stick. No pesky wires to make it run.
Steve


"Aren't cats Libertarian? They just want to be left alone.
I think our dog is a Democrat, as he is always looking for a handout"
Unknown Usnet Poster

Heh, heh, I'm pretty sure my dog is a liberal - he has no balls.
Keyton

Gunner Asch wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

I lost all the OTA channels when they made the switch.

I gained 7 channels when we went to digital on the local antenna.
Unfortunately they are Spanish...shrug


That's like being hung with a new rope.


--
The movie 'Deliverance' isn't a documentary!

Jim Wilkins wrote:

On Nov 29, 12:42 am, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:

It's a quick way to kill someone up close, when yo either have to
keep quiet, or are out of ammo.

Bayonets let you control captives with graded, non-lethal force backed
by a bullet if necessary.

I've read that they are a preferred weapon for close-up, nighttime
furball fights when you can't identify friend from foe at any
distance. In Herbert McBride's WW1 autobio the trench-raiding machine
gunners would bring only their spare barrels to use as clubs. They
wanted live prisoners to interrogate.


What kept those prisoners in line? The knowledge that a quick
bayonet thrust, and they are dead. of course you want to obtain
information, but you can only control so many prisoners at a time.

--
The movie 'Deliverance' isn't a documentary!

On Sun, 29 Nov 2009 09:00:22 -0600, "Up North"
wrote:


"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 28 Nov 2009 18:29:45 -0600, "Up North"
wrote:


"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 27 Nov 2009 20:14:24 -0600, "Pete C."
wrote:


Jim Stewart wrote:

Michael Koblic wrote:
I saw an interesting event on Jay Jeno last night: Memebrs of the
five
armed
services were trying to open a can of cranberry sauce using a Swiss
army
knife. It was horrible. None of them seemed to have a clear idea how
to use
the can opener attachment, in fact I am pretty sure some of them
used
the
wrong attachment. Four of them managed eventually at a cost of some
injuries
and the cans were mangled. One failed to empty the can in the
alloted
time.

I wondered about the implications: Is this a reflection on general
population's unfamiliarity with a can opener? Is this a reflection
on
basic
training? Is it because the knife was *Swiss*? It cannot be because
the
knife was *Army* as I believe it was the Army guy who failed. I
hesitate to
cite stress affecting the performance of members of fighitng forces.

Would members of the Special Forces have done better? One of the
guys
made a
creditable effort to rip the can open with his bare hands but with a
minimum
result. How would the US Armed forces stack up against, say, the
Brits
or
the Russians?

Is this something to be concerned about? Do I have too much time on
my
hands?

We all probably have too much time on our hands
so I'll let that slide.

Any pre-gulf war vet would have used a P-38 to
open his/her C-rations and would be able to
figure out the knife. I hope.

I was shocked to learn that some of my daugher's
high school friends were never allowed to use
kitchen knives.

I'm guessing that the whole concept of tool-using
is slowly bleeding out of a large portion of the
population. Cars neither need nor are easy to
repair. Most products are cheaper to throw away
than to fix. How many *hundreds* of old collected
sets of tools end up at the flea market, presumably
because their new owner had no use for them.

For example, most people used to at least have
a clue as to how a television works. I think
that if you asked most young people, you'd get
a one word answer, LED or LCL or plasma.

The military is having a hard time attracting
enough smart and educated recruits. This is not
meant to disparage our troops, but OTOH, there's
not a lot of kids going into the military to learn
a civilian trade any more.

Oh well, just means us old farts will have some
value in the next 20 or 30 years.

The biggest issue this points out is the lack of basic mechanical
aptitude and problem solving skills. Even if all these troops have seen
are tear to open MREs, they should be able to look at the can, look at
the options on the knife and use basic mechanical problem solving skills
to figure it out.

The sad fact is that a large portion of our volunteer troops come from
backgrounds where religious indoctrination took precedence over basic
education - not unlike the enemy they are currently fighting.


You are confusing something..most of these kids are conservative and
largely from rural areas..so they are head and hands smarter and better
educatied than city kids.

Are you saying that the kid that just put the carby out of a 72 Poncho
into his 89 Poncho cant figure out how to open an MRE?


Why would a smart kid want to take the fuel injection off a car and put a
carb on it? I think the smart ones are putting FI where a carb used to
live.
Steve

Shrug...after an EMP event..one should know how to do exactly that.

Gunner

In that case you want a 240D with a stick. No pesky wires to make it run.
Steve

Or a Volkswagon.

Gunner



"Aren't cats Libertarian? They just want to be left alone.
I think our dog is a Democrat, as he is always looking for a handout"
Unknown Usnet Poster

Heh, heh, I'm pretty sure my dog is a liberal - he has no balls.
Keyton


"Aren't cats Libertarian? They just want to be left alone.
I think our dog is a Democrat, as he is always looking for a handout"
Unknown Usnet Poster

Heh, heh, I'm pretty sure my dog is a liberal - he has no balls.
Keyton

On Sun, 29 Nov 2009 05:14:09 -0800 (PST), Jim Wilkins
wrote:

On Nov 29, 12:42*am, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:

* *It's a quick way to kill someone up close, when yo either have to
keep quiet, or are out of ammo.

Bayonets let you control captives with graded, non-lethal force backed
by a bullet if necessary.

I've read that they are a preferred weapon for close-up, nighttime
furball fights when you can't identify friend from foe at any
distance. In Herbert McBride's WW1 autobio the trench-raiding machine
gunners would bring only their spare barrels to use as clubs. They
wanted live prisoners to interrogate.

jsw

One of the finest trench weapons ever made, was the narrow bladed garden
or "sod" spade.

Gunner


"Aren't cats Libertarian? They just want to be left alone.
I think our dog is a Democrat, as he is always looking for a handout"
Unknown Usnet Poster

Heh, heh, I'm pretty sure my dog is a liberal - he has no balls.
Keyton

"John R. Carroll" wrote:

I thought this was only a problem in the flyover states.

I think it's a problem for everyone except cable and satellite service
providers.


I'm on Dishnetwork, broadcast signals barely made it to me in the analog days.

Wes
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller

On Sat, 28 Nov 2009 16:44:59 -0700, the infamous Steve Ackman
scrawled the following:

In , on Sat, 28 Nov 2009
13:33:17 -0800, Larry Jaques, novalidaddress@di wrote:

I saw an interesting event on Jay Jeno last night: Memebrs of the five armed
services were trying to open a can of cranberry sauce using a Swiss army
knife. It was horrible. None of them seemed to have a clear idea how to use
the can opener attachment, in fact I am pretty sure some of them used the
wrong attachment. Four of them managed eventually at a cost of some injuries
and the cans were mangled. One failed to empty the can in the alloted time.

That's downright shameful. I hope it comes out later that Leno set
'em up or paid them to stumble. Any other scenario is just too scary.
I hope the Al Queda boys don't see that show. Talk about an esteem
builder for the enemy...

Nope. They were all trying their best to a) win a
car, and b) not disgrace their branch of the service.

They c) Blew it all the way around.


The question coming up in my mind: Is this entire current generation
totally clueless when it comes to mechanical things, and only good for
playing electronic games?

Yes. In looking for a can to open to time myself,
I found more than half the cans in the cupboard are
the "pop top" type that require no can opener at all.
Probably not too many guys still active duty who have
ever even seen a P-38 or C-ration. Seems to me that
MRE's came out sometime around '80...ish.

It would also appear that not one of them ever had a Cub Scout or Boy
Scout session, and none of them spent any time with their dads in the
shop or hardware store. That's truly sad.

--
Some days, it's not even worth chewing through the restraints.

On Sat, 28 Nov 2009 18:19:50 -0800, the infamous "Michael Koblic"
scrawled the following:


"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...
I think it's a sad commentary on the different activites we
provide for our youth. I got to use the can opener on a
folding knife, about age 6 or 8 some where along that age.
Had my first folding knife by 8 or so. Now days, I doubt
that kids are allowed to carry pocket knives, even when not
in school.


I started carrying a folder about the same time I was introduced to P38 -
about age 5. No question IMHO that P38 is a superior tool but that is not
the point. I do not know how long Swiss Army knives have been around. I got
my first one about 45 years ago. The can opener design has not changed since
then (although I did get my last one SAK about 8 years ago so I cannot be
completely sure). I would find it hard to believe that most young men have
not seen or handled an SAK at some point. I know that some of the Brit
special forces like to buy and carry their own.

Yeah, how many men (or women) here have received a new knife and
haven't tried every single blade on it to get a feel for it? I always
did the very day, if not hour, that I received/bought one.


Any young man of my generation who ever was in a position to have to look
after himself pretty much acquired the skill of can opening as a survival
mechanism, using not just one or two can openers, but several.

Today's technology and world are very different than what we grew up
with, but, still...


So my first reaction to seeing the Leno show was first incredulity and than
amusement. Later I began to wonder about the implications.

No doubt deadly under many circumstances.


I understand that the current form of rations (MREs?) do not contain cans
and, as someone pointed out, rightly so: They have other things to worry
about. However, the rub of that argument is that overdependence on issue
rations may not be a good thing in the "fog of war" situation. The extreme
is to say that if not issued with MREs the troops would starve. The opposite
of that is the Russian guerilla cavalry in WW2 who generally managed with a
bagful of vegetables scrounged off the land for 3 weeks at a time.

Many have commented on the possible reason of this state of affairs and
there is probably a bit of truth in all of them. I just could not get away
from explaining how single young men survive without opening cans. Then it
came to me: Take-out meals!

I hear that the new MREs are all either tearable or pull-tab-to-open
and self-heating (if heating is needed) Mike. I've only seen
pictures of the new stuff.

--
Some days, it's not even worth chewing through the restraints.

On Sun, 29 Nov 2009 19:58:39 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sat, 28 Nov 2009 18:19:50 -0800, the infamous "Michael Koblic"
scrawled the following:


"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...
I think it's a sad commentary on the different activites we
provide for our youth. I got to use the can opener on a
folding knife, about age 6 or 8 some where along that age.
Had my first folding knife by 8 or so. Now days, I doubt
that kids are allowed to carry pocket knives, even when not
in school.


I started carrying a folder about the same time I was introduced to P38 -
about age 5. No question IMHO that P38 is a superior tool but that is not
the point. I do not know how long Swiss Army knives have been around. I got
my first one about 45 years ago. The can opener design has not changed since
then (although I did get my last one SAK about 8 years ago so I cannot be
completely sure). I would find it hard to believe that most young men have
not seen or handled an SAK at some point. I know that some of the Brit
special forces like to buy and carry their own.

Yeah, how many men (or women) here have received a new knife and
haven't tried every single blade on it to get a feel for it? I always
did the very day, if not hour, that I received/bought one.

I never bought my kid with a can opener on it. I did give him a couple
dozen P38s/P51s over the years however.


Any young man of my generation who ever was in a position to have to look
after himself pretty much acquired the skill of can opening as a survival
mechanism, using not just one or two can openers, but several.

Today's technology and world are very different than what we grew up
with, but, still...


So my first reaction to seeing the Leno show was first incredulity and than
amusement. Later I began to wonder about the implications.

No doubt deadly under many circumstances.


I understand that the current form of rations (MREs?) do not contain cans
and, as someone pointed out, rightly so: They have other things to worry
about. However, the rub of that argument is that overdependence on issue
rations may not be a good thing in the "fog of war" situation. The extreme
is to say that if not issued with MREs the troops would starve. The opposite
of that is the Russian guerilla cavalry in WW2 who generally managed with a
bagful of vegetables scrounged off the land for 3 weeks at a time.

Many have commented on the possible reason of this state of affairs and
there is probably a bit of truth in all of them. I just could not get away
from explaining how single young men survive without opening cans. Then it
came to me: Take-out meals!

I hear that the new MREs are all either tearable or pull-tab-to-open
and self-heating (if heating is needed) Mike. I've only seen
pictures of the new stuff.


And it tastes pretty good. Beats the **** out of Beans and
Mother****ers...C-rats...20 yr old Crats at that.

And they come with self heaters. stick em in the cup with some water,
drop in the bag..and in less than 5 minutes...voila!

Gunner

"Aren't cats Libertarian? They just want to be left alone.
I think our dog is a Democrat, as he is always looking for a handout"
Unknown Usnet Poster

Heh, heh, I'm pretty sure my dog is a liberal - he has no balls.
Keyton

On Sun, 29 Nov 2009 09:00:22 -0600, "Up North" wrote:
"Gunner Asch" wrote:
On Sat, 28 Nov 2009 18:29:45 -0600, "Up North" wrote:
"Gunner Asch" wrote:
On Fri, 27 Nov 2009 20:14:24 -0600, "Pete C." wrote:

The biggest issue this points out is the lack of basic mechanical
aptitude and problem solving skills. Even if all these troops have seen
are tear to open MREs, they should be able to look at the can, look at
the options on the knife and use basic mechanical problem solving skills
to figure it out.

The sad fact is that a large portion of our volunteer troops come from
backgrounds where religious indoctrination took precedence over basic
education - not unlike the enemy they are currently fighting.

You are confusing something..most of these kids are conservative and
largely from rural areas..so they are head and hands smarter and better
educatied than city kids.

Are you saying that the kid that just put the carby out of a 72 Poncho
into his 89 Poncho cant figure out how to open an MRE?

Why would a smart kid want to take the fuel injection off a car and put a
carb on it? I think the smart ones are putting FI where a carb used to
live.
Steve

Because the goons at the EPA decided that the EFI Map can't flow at
the rates you need when the engine is bored, stroked, hot cam, forged
pistons,supercharger and running on 108 Octane racing gasoline with a
shot of Laughing Gas at full throttle.

Carburetors don't ask questions, they just do it. At least till the
EPA and CARB say they can't anymore.

Shrug...after an EMP event..one should know how to do exactly that.

Gunner

In that case you want a 240D with a stick. No pesky wires to make it run.
Steve

Well, that's fine after you get it running. But you still need a
working battery and starter and alternator. The battery and starter
motor will probably survive an EMP, but you only get it started so
many times without a working alternator or other charging method.

And parking at the top of a steep hill every time works fine for a
while - till the first time you dump the clutch and stall it someplace
dead flat for miles in every direction.

-- Bruce --

On Nov 30, 2:48*am, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote:
On Sun, 29 Nov 2009 09:00:22 -0600, "Up North" wrote:
"Gunner Asch" wrote:

Shrug...after an EMP event..one should know how to do exactly that.

Gunner

In that case you want a 240D with a stick. No pesky wires to make it run..
Steve

* Well, that's fine after you get it running. *But you still need a
working battery and starter and alternator. *The battery and starter
motor will probably survive an EMP, but you only get it started so
many times without a working alternator or other charging method.

-- Bruce ---

http://www.eham.net/forums/EmergencyCommunications/4312

Just leave the battery disconnected.

jsw

"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote:

On Sun, 29 Nov 2009 09:00:22 -0600, "Up North" wrote:
"Gunner Asch" wrote:
On Sat, 28 Nov 2009 18:29:45 -0600, "Up North" wrote:
"Gunner Asch" wrote:
On Fri, 27 Nov 2009 20:14:24 -0600, "Pete C." wrote:

The biggest issue this points out is the lack of basic mechanical
aptitude and problem solving skills. Even if all these troops have seen
are tear to open MREs, they should be able to look at the can, look at
the options on the knife and use basic mechanical problem solving skills
to figure it out.

The sad fact is that a large portion of our volunteer troops come from
backgrounds where religious indoctrination took precedence over basic
education - not unlike the enemy they are currently fighting.

You are confusing something..most of these kids are conservative and
largely from rural areas..so they are head and hands smarter and better
educatied than city kids.

Are you saying that the kid that just put the carby out of a 72 Poncho
into his 89 Poncho cant figure out how to open an MRE?

Why would a smart kid want to take the fuel injection off a car and put a
carb on it? I think the smart ones are putting FI where a carb used to
live.
Steve

Because the goons at the EPA decided that the EFI Map can't flow at
the rates you need when the engine is bored, stroked, hot cam, forged
pistons,supercharger and running on 108 Octane racing gasoline with a
shot of Laughing Gas at full throttle.

Carburetors don't ask questions, they just do it. At least till the
EPA and CARB say they can't anymore.

Shrug...after an EMP event..one should know how to do exactly that.

Gunner

In that case you want a 240D with a stick. No pesky wires to make it run.
Steve

Well, that's fine after you get it running. But you still need a
working battery and starter and alternator. The battery and starter
motor will probably survive an EMP, but you only get it started so
many times without a working alternator or other charging method.

And parking at the top of a steep hill every time works fine for a
while - till the first time you dump the clutch and stall it someplace
dead flat for miles in every direction.

-- Bruce --

Crank start...

On Mon, 30 Nov 2009 04:23:31 -0800 (PST), Jim Wilkins
wrote:

On Nov 30, 2:48*am, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote:
On Sun, 29 Nov 2009 09:00:22 -0600, "Up North" wrote:
"Gunner Asch" wrote:

Shrug...after an EMP event..one should know how to do exactly that.

Gunner

In that case you want a 240D with a stick. No pesky wires to make it run.
Steve

* Well, that's fine after you get it running. *But you still need a
working battery and starter and alternator. *The battery and starter
motor will probably survive an EMP, but you only get it started so
many times without a working alternator or other charging method.

-- Bruce ---

http://www.eham.net/forums/EmergencyCommunications/4312

Just leave the battery disconnected.

jsw

Blink blink...huh???

Gunner

"Aren't cats Libertarian? They just want to be left alone.
I think our dog is a Democrat, as he is always looking for a handout"
Unknown Usnet Poster

Heh, heh, I'm pretty sure my dog is a liberal - he has no balls.
Keyton

On Nov 30, 12:07*pm, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 30 Nov 2009 04:23:31 -0800 (PST), Jim Wilkins
wrote:

http://www.eham.net/forums/EmergencyCommunications/4312

Just leave the battery disconnected.

jsw

Blink blink...huh???

Gunner

The EMP creates a high voltage spike but unlike lightning it carries
little energy, The heating power that fries semiconductors when the
EMP has turned them all on comes from the battery. Curve tracers,
hipotters etc that apply and measure similar breakdown voltages aren't
destructive because their output current is limited to very low
values. I built a machine once that zapped production high voltage
diodes with up to 40,000V to verify their Peak Reverse Voltage,
limited to a microamp by a large vacuum tube.

That's a simplified civilian explanation. If you are curious the ham
radio community knows a lot more of the unclassified details.

jsw

"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 29 Nov 2009 09:00:22 -0600, "Up North" wrote:
"Gunner Asch" wrote:
On Sat, 28 Nov 2009 18:29:45 -0600, "Up North" wrote:
"Gunner Asch" wrote:
On Fri, 27 Nov 2009 20:14:24 -0600, "Pete C." wrote:

The biggest issue this points out is the lack of basic mechanical
aptitude and problem solving skills. Even if all these troops have
seen
are tear to open MREs, they should be able to look at the can, look at
the options on the knife and use basic mechanical problem solving
skills
to figure it out.

The sad fact is that a large portion of our volunteer troops come from
backgrounds where religious indoctrination took precedence over basic
education - not unlike the enemy they are currently fighting.

You are confusing something..most of these kids are conservative and
largely from rural areas..so they are head and hands smarter and
better
educatied than city kids.

Are you saying that the kid that just put the carby out of a 72 Poncho
into his 89 Poncho cant figure out how to open an MRE?

Why would a smart kid want to take the fuel injection off a car and put
a
carb on it? I think the smart ones are putting FI where a carb used to
live.
Steve

Because the goons at the EPA decided that the EFI Map can't flow at
the rates you need when the engine is bored, stroked, hot cam, forged
pistons,supercharger and running on 108 Octane racing gasoline with a
shot of Laughing Gas at full throttle.

Carburetors don't ask questions, they just do it. At least till the
EPA and CARB say they can't anymore.




That is why FI is better. The system does ask questions like how hot is it.
How lean, how rich. EFI maps can be changed to suit the engine.





Shrug...after an EMP event..one should know how to do exactly that.

Gunner

In that case you want a 240D with a stick. No pesky wires to make it run.
Steve

Well, that's fine after you get it running. But you still need a
working battery and starter and alternator. The battery and starter
motor will probably survive an EMP, but you only get it started so
many times without a working alternator or other charging method.

And parking at the top of a steep hill every time works fine for a
while - till the first time you dump the clutch and stall it someplace
dead flat for miles in every direction.

-- Bruce --


A carb rigged on a newer car would do little to help you out in that
situation.
Steve

On Fri, 27 Nov 2009 17:33:11 -0800, Jim Stewart wrote:

The military is having a hard time attracting enough smart and educated
recruits. This is not meant to disparage our troops, but OTOH, there's
not a lot of kids going into the military to learn a civilian trade any
more.

The problem is exacerbated by the tendency of judges recently to offer
signing up for the military as an alternative to a prison sentence....

Hope This Helps!
Rich

On Mon, 30 Nov 2009 09:26:09 -0600, "Pete C."
wrote:

Crank start...

A Diesel. Riiiiiight.... After you. Bring friends.

Bruce L. Bergman wrote:
On Mon, 30 Nov 2009 09:26:09 -0600, "Pete C."
wrote:
Crank start...

A Diesel. Riiiiiight.... After you. Bring friends.


Not that hard, I have three crank start diesels, plus one that starts by
heating a steel tube and then tossing the flywheel over and another that
starts by using a blank shotgun shell!

Oh and one small generator (3500 watts)that is a pull start diesel.
(actually came from a Home Depot!)

--
Steve W.

On Nov 28, 3:17*am, Mark Rand wrote:
On Sat, 28 Nov 2009 03:56:46 -0500, "Steve W." wrote:
The P-51 I have works easier BUT it's also larger than the 38. One I
used to have around was even smaller than the 38, came with a brand of
sardines I used to get.

I was a bit taken aback...

Isn't it overkill to use a fighter plane to open a can of tuna??

How much tuna is left in the can afterwards?

:-)

Mark Rand
RTFM

LOL Very loud JD