I've always thought the tang at the back of a Morse Taper was for
insurance... Or in other words, if the tool slipped, the tang provided
drive.

I was told today that a MT1 has more holding power than a Jacobs J33 taper
without the tang...

This makes me wonder... Is the tang for driving the tool rotationally,
material to remove the taper without damaging it, combination?

Thoughts? Charts on their ratings without the tang, etc?

Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022
01.908.542.0244
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com
Flagship Site: http://www.Drill-N-Tap.com

V8013-R

On Apr 8, 2:48*pm, "Joe AutoDrill" wrote:
I've always thought the tang at the back of a Morse Taper was for
insurance... *Or in other words, if the tool slipped, the tang provided
drive.

I was told today that a MT1 has more holding power than a Jacobs J33 taper
without the tang...

This makes me wonder... *Is the tang for driving the tool rotationally,
material to remove the taper without damaging it, combination?

Thoughts? *Charts on their ratings without the tang, etc?

Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022
01.908.542.0244
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills:http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills:http://www.Multi-Drill.com
Flagship Site:http://www.Drill-N-Tap.com

V8013-R

Joe,

The tang is merely to separate the taper from the socket with a flat
taper drift.

The taper is to do all the driving.

This becomes painfully apparent in the larger taper and drill sizes:
If a #4 or #5 MT slips when driving a large drill the tang is easily
sheared off. With a #3 MT it depends on the type of tool. With # 2
MT and smaller the tang generally is of sufficient strength to drive
the tool in case of slippage.

However on many lathe tail stocks there is no slot to engage the tang,
and the taper turns in the socket when improperly seated due to oil,
burrs or dents, chips, combined with laziness or improper instruction
of the operator.

Wolfgang

This becomes painfully apparent in the larger taper and drill sizes:
If a #4 or #5 MT slips when driving a large drill the tang is easily
sheared off. With a #3 MT it depends on the type of tool. With # 2
MT and smaller the tang generally is of sufficient strength to drive
the tool in case of slippage.

Wolfgang,

Thanks for the heads up and info. I've never heard of a MT4+ shearing the
tang off, but I suppose it is possible now that you say it...

One of the options I offer is a MT2 with a draw bar... I suppose the draw
bar makes the MT2 seat better even if imperfect... But the clenaliness of
the tapered surfaces is always a major concern for us. Acetone is what we
use but even that leaves a slight sheen of oil. (don't beleive me? Go clean
a mirror with it...)

I'm looking to do a through-the-coolant application where the MT tooling
goes into a spindle that has a draw bar-like knock-out passageway to remove
the tapered tooling... And thus the tooling's tang will not have a slot to
knock it out because the liquid would escape!

We had a drill press here a few years ago with a MT2 tang that was seated so
well, we bent the spindle trying to remove it and ruined the drill press.
Simply deformed the drifts into mangled pieces of steel.
--


Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022
01.908.542.0244
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com
Flagship Site: http://www.Drill-N-Tap.com

V8013-R

On Wed, 8 Apr 2009 16:21:42 -0400, "Joe AutoDrill" wrote:

This becomes painfully apparent in the larger taper and drill sizes:
If a #4 or #5 MT slips when driving a large drill the tang is easily
sheared off. With a #3 MT it depends on the type of tool. With # 2
MT and smaller the tang generally is of sufficient strength to drive
the tool in case of slippage.

Wolfgang,

Thanks for the heads up and info. I've never heard of a MT4+ shearing the
tang off, but I suppose it is possible now that you say it...

Absolutely, despite many folks firm belief, the tang has no part in torque
transmission. If the tang ever sees torque, you've already lost the grip.

One of the options I offer is a MT2 with a draw bar... I suppose the draw
bar makes the MT2 seat better even if imperfect... But the clenaliness of
the tapered surfaces is always a major concern for us. Acetone is what we
use but even that leaves a slight sheen of oil. (don't beleive me? Go clean
a mirror with it...)

A clean taper with a drawbar only needs the nut tightening hand tight/lightly
with a Morse taper. I actually wipe the tapers clean with a little way oil and
they still grip :-)


I'm looking to do a through-the-coolant application where the MT tooling
goes into a spindle that has a draw bar-like knock-out passageway to remove
the tapered tooling... And thus the tooling's tang will not have a slot to
knock it out because the liquid would escape!

Beware of soluble coolant, could end up rusting the taper together.



We had a drill press here a few years ago with a MT2 tang that was seated so
well, we bent the spindle trying to remove it and ruined the drill press.
Simply deformed the drifts into mangled pieces of steel.

'Nuff said about the holding of Morse tapers.

These thoughts are worth exactly what you paid for them.

Mark Rand
RTFM

wrote:

This becomes painfully apparent in the larger taper and drill sizes:
If a #4 or #5 MT slips when driving a large drill the tang is easily
sheared off. With a #3 MT it depends on the type of tool. With # 2
MT and smaller the tang generally is of sufficient strength to drive
the tool in case of slippage.


What is the typical best way to seat a MT tool? I've tended to just stick them in a clean
socket with bit of velocity so they bottom with some force.

I've used up to MT4 and never had one spin yet but it could be that I move slowly at first
into the work piece the increasing tool tip pressure is seating it firmer as the
rotational forces are increasing.

Wes

On older lathes and some mills/shapers the flat tang is
locked into place by a drift. It keeps the taper from spinning.
Spinning a taper can make the holding taper slick.

Martin

Joe AutoDrill wrote:
I've always thought the tang at the back of a Morse Taper was for
insurance... Or in other words, if the tool slipped, the tang provided
drive.

I was told today that a MT1 has more holding power than a Jacobs J33 taper
without the tang...

This makes me wonder... Is the tang for driving the tool rotationally,
material to remove the taper without damaging it, combination?

Thoughts? Charts on their ratings without the tang, etc?

Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022
01.908.542.0244
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com
Flagship Site: http://www.Drill-N-Tap.com

V8013-R

On Wed, 8 Apr 2009 15:48:16 -0400, "Joe AutoDrill"
wrote:

I've always thought the tang at the back of a Morse Taper was for
insurance... Or in other words, if the tool slipped, the tang provided
drive.

I was told today that a MT1 has more holding power than a Jacobs J33 taper
without the tang...

This makes me wonder... Is the tang for driving the tool rotationally,
material to remove the taper without damaging it, combination?

Thoughts? Charts on their ratings without the tang, etc?

Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022
01.908.542.0244
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com
Flagship Site: http://www.Drill-N-Tap.com

V8013-R
=========
FWIW -- I always thought that it was for removing the tool from
the socket using the wedge.



Unka' George [George McDuffee]
-------------------------------------------
He that will not apply new remedies,
must expect new evils:
for Time is the greatest innovator: and
if Time, of course, alter things to the worse,
and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better,
what shall be the end?

Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman.
Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).

What is the typical best way to seat a MT tool? I've tended to just stick
them in a clean
socket with bit of velocity so they bottom with some force.

Personally, we whack the device in with a rubber mallet when possible. Not
violently, but enough to seat it firmly.

Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022
01.908.542.0244
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com
Flagship Site: http://www.Drill-N-Tap.com

V8013-R

What is the typical best way to seat a MT tool? I've tended to just stick
them in a clean
socket with bit of velocity so they bottom with some force.


On my radial drill (MT4 or MT5) you have to turn the quill down manually
against the stock without the machine running to press it in. I haven't
done it, but i know this machine would shear that tang right off. BTW, I
don't know my morse numbers. This machine is the size you find on 2" drill
bits.

On my radial drill (MT4 or MT5) you have to turn the quill down manually
against the stock without the machine running to press it in. I haven't
done it, but i know this machine would shear that tang right off. BTW, I
don't know my morse numbers. This machine is the size you find on 2" drill
bits.

These numbers are *not* exact, but often are close enough to help people
determine what morse taper thier machine uses. By not exact, I mean that
sometimes the taper extends past the spec. numbers on the tool or sometimes
the female is slightly more deep or shallow than it should be and thus the
measurement changes...

To determine what taper your machine has, measure either the greatest
diameter of the morse taper portion of the tool or the largest diameter of
the female morse taper cavity on the machine and compare to below:

MT0 - 0.356"
MT1 - 0.475"
MT2 - 0.700"
MT3 - 0.938"
MT4 - 1.231"
MT4.5 - 1.500"
MT5 - 1.748"
MT6 - 2.494"
MT7 - 3.270"

More info he http://www.tools-n-gizmos.com/specs/Tapers.html

Personally, I've never heard of the MT0 or MT4.5 before studying about them
in depth... But apparently they exist. I'm guessing the MT4.5 is a rare
bird for sure!

Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022
01.908.542.0244
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com
Flagship Site: http://www.Drill-N-Tap.com

V8013-R

The acetone you use my leave behind a residue, but it is very likely that it
is also dissolving compounds within the cleaning towels.

Ed has mentioned many times that acetone that consumers can purchase is
generally acetone that's been used in industry, then cleaned up to be
resold.
I think acetone from a drug store may be clean, but much of the
cleaning/solvent types of acetone are not.

Lacquer thinner, which is close to acetone, will cause pigments to be
released from paper towels (even just plain white ones), but also binders.
I've seen a white cloudy film after using lacquer thinner on Brawny towels
to clean glass or glass lenses.
Generally, the cleanest that I can get a part, is to use lacquer thinner or
denatured alcohol with a new or very clean 100% cotton cloth.

I've also seen certain blue shop towels (on a roll like paper towels) that
come apart when lacquer thinner is used with them.

About the only way to get something really clean is to use perfectly clean
solvents and no-residue cleaning towels for a particular solvent.

Most times around the shop, parts don't need to be perfectly clean, but
optics elements do.

--
WB
..........
metalworking projects
www.kwagmire.com/metal_proj.html


"Joe AutoDrill" wrote in message
...

Wolfgang,

Thanks for the heads up and info. I've never heard of a MT4+ shearing the
tang off, but I suppose it is possible now that you say it...

One of the options I offer is a MT2 with a draw bar... I suppose the draw
bar makes the MT2 seat better even if imperfect... But the clenaliness of
the tapered surfaces is always a major concern for us. Acetone is what we
use but even that leaves a slight sheen of oil. (don't beleive me? Go
clean a mirror with it...)

I'm looking to do a through-the-coolant application where the MT tooling
goes into a spindle that has a draw bar-like knock-out passageway to
remove the tapered tooling... And thus the tooling's tang will not have a
slot to knock it out because the liquid would escape!

We had a drill press here a few years ago with a MT2 tang that was seated
so well, we bent the spindle trying to remove it and ruined the drill
press. Simply deformed the drifts into mangled pieces of steel.
--


Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022
01.908.542.0244
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com
Flagship Site: http://www.Drill-N-Tap.com

V8013-R

On 2009-04-09, Joe AutoDrill wrote:
On my radial drill (MT4 or MT5) you have to turn the quill down manually
against the stock without the machine running to press it in. I haven't
done it, but i know this machine would shear that tang right off. BTW, I
don't know my morse numbers. This machine is the size you find on 2" drill
bits.

These numbers are *not* exact, but often are close enough to help people
determine what morse taper thier machine uses. By not exact, I mean that
sometimes the taper extends past the spec. numbers on the tool or sometimes
the female is slightly more deep or shallow than it should be and thus the
measurement changes...

To determine what taper your machine has, measure either the greatest
diameter of the morse taper portion of the tool or the largest diameter of
the female morse taper cavity on the machine and compare to below:

Usually the male extends beyond the female (sometimes there is a
groove in the male to mark where the diameter should be measured).
However, if you have both the male and the female, you can measure the
male just where it exits the female at the big end. It is easier to get
a good measurement with calipers on a an external than an internal
diameter.

MT0 - 0.356"
MT1 - 0.475"
MT2 - 0.700"
MT3 - 0.938"
MT4 - 1.231"
MT4.5 - 1.500"
MT5 - 1.748"
MT6 - 2.494"
MT7 - 3.270"

More info he http://www.tools-n-gizmos.com/specs/Tapers.html

Also in Machinery's Handbook.

Personally, I've never heard of the MT0 or MT4.5 before studying about them
in depth... But apparently they exist. I'm guessing the MT4.5 is a rare
bird for sure!

Actually -- not rare at all. It is the internal taper on lathe
spindles with the L-00 external taper. I've got one (my 12x24"
Clausing). The reason for it is that a MT-4 is not *quite* large enough
to allow a collet closer nosepiece for the 5C collets.

Usually the taper in the spindle is a lot shorter than the full
length of the specified taper. And the lathe *should* come with an
adaptor from MT-4-1/2 to MT-3 or MT-2 (whichever matches the tailstock
taper).

As for MT-0 -- I have the reamer for that. I've used it to make
tapered sockets in dulcimers for fiddle tuning pegs. (It now lives in a
wooden box with a set of reamers from MT-1 through MT-5 -- skipping
MT-4-1/2.

I've also used it (the JT-0 reamer) to make a socket mounted in
a releasing tapping head for a set of tap holding collets.

The only place where I have found the MT-4-1/2 in _Machinery's
Handbook_ is in the table of "American National Standard self-holding
tapers". (And -- in that table they don't list the Morse Taper 0.) They
took B&S, Morse, and Jarno tapers and combined them to make a continuous
set of standard tapers, instead of designing from scratch. One nasty
bit about the Morse tapers is that each taper is a little different in
included angle, because they were defined by small end and large end
diameters before they could measure angles that accurately. The Jarno
tapers all have precisely the same taper, and are defined by the
diameter in hundredths of an inch at the gauge line. (The male taper
can extend beyond the gauge line, as above.) For example, the Jarno 600
has a large end diameter of 6.000"

Enjoy,
DoN.


--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

Wild_Bill wrote:
(snip)

Most times around the shop, parts don't need to be perfectly clean, but
optics elements do.

At one time, I was machining some IBM bearing housings on a Hardinge
SuperSlant. The bore had a +/- .0004" size tolerance, and the same
tolerance for concentricity with the bore on the other side, machined
in a previous op on a different machine. Holding size was no problem,
but when we started, we were rejecting 30% for concentricity. We were
cleaning the parts before inspection with standard pink shop cloths.
One night I tried white paper towels instead. One out of 40 parts
failed. Cleaned some of the older failed parts with paper towels,
they now passed.

David

I can see that as well.

Consider doing a shaft that is offset so a taper can be cut
without a taper option. Or a not so balanced flywheel being cut down
from a sand pouring. Side forces on the tail-stock can rock out the center.
I think the wedge kept rotation and walking out.

I can't find the booklet (reprint) that showed a slot in the tail-stock.

Martin

F. George McDuffee wrote:
On Wed, 8 Apr 2009 15:48:16 -0400, "Joe AutoDrill"
wrote:

I've always thought the tang at the back of a Morse Taper was for
insurance... Or in other words, if the tool slipped, the tang provided
drive.

I was told today that a MT1 has more holding power than a Jacobs J33 taper
without the tang...

This makes me wonder... Is the tang for driving the tool rotationally,
material to remove the taper without damaging it, combination?

Thoughts? Charts on their ratings without the tang, etc?

Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022
01.908.542.0244
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com
Flagship Site: http://www.Drill-N-Tap.com

V8013-R
=========
FWIW -- I always thought that it was for removing the tool from
the socket using the wedge.



Unka' George [George McDuffee]
-------------------------------------------
He that will not apply new remedies,
must expect new evils:
for Time is the greatest innovator: and
if Time, of course, alter things to the worse,
and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better,
what shall be the end?

Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman.
Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).

On 2009-04-09, Wild_Bill wrote:
The acetone you use my leave behind a residue, but it is very likely that it
is also dissolving compounds within the cleaning towels.

Ed has mentioned many times that acetone that consumers can purchase is
generally acetone that's been used in industry, then cleaned up to be
resold.
I think acetone from a drug store may be clean, but much of the
cleaning/solvent types of acetone are not.

FWIW -- I've seen films left by CP (Chemically Pure) Acetone
bottled by Merk. And the "rag" used was "lint free" cloth for lens
cleaning and such.

This was glass bottled Acetone purchased by the chem lab at a
government R&D facility, not the tin-can contained stuff from Home
Depot.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On Apr 8, 6:25*pm, Wes wrote:

What is the typical best way to seat a MT tool? *I've tended to just stick them in a clean
socket with bit of velocity so they bottom with some force.

Wes

Common practice was to keep a lead ball next to the drill press to
smack the end of the drill to seat it.

I agree that a Morse taper that is correctly seated won't gain much
from the tang. If the taper is not well seated, however, the tang
just may keep it from spinning - and ruining the taper of the spindle
- before the pressure applied to the drill point locks up the taper.

Some must have thought the tangs of benefit, as there were replacement
tangs available to weld on if the original was twisted off. Also,
there are the UseEmUp sleeves designed for use with drills with a flat
ground the length of the taper. Always wondered how they made the
internal taper on the UseEmUp sleeves.

John Martin