I am working on product that is comprised of aluminum
sleeves affixed to carbon fiber tubes with structural
adhesives. We have tensile tests that show we have more than
enough strength for normal use. However, I am looking at the
200 degree service limit for the adhesive and wondering just
how hot this part might get say, sitting in the sun out in
Phoenix in the middle of summer.....
It's winter here in Calif. so hard to collect data. I might
ship some parts off to a friend in OZ to collect data as
it's summer there. But thought I'd ask if anyone here might
have done any testing of this nature and know.

I have approx 3/4"dia by 2" long aluminum, bonded to 1/2"
carbon fiber. This resides near an engine, so worst case
would likely be a hard run through the desert, then being
parked with this part in direct sunlight while taking in
heat from the engine.

Once I have an good idea what temps we might see, I can
specify in the next tensile test that the parts be heated to
this temp before being pulled.


Thanks,

Jon

On Sat, 19 Jan 2008 09:03:46 -0800, Jon Anderson wrote:

I am working on product that is comprised of aluminum sleeves affixed to
carbon fiber tubes with structural adhesives. We have tensile tests that
show we have more than enough strength for normal use. However, I am
looking at the 200 degree service limit for the adhesive and wondering
just how hot this part might get say, sitting in the sun out in Phoenix
in the middle of summer.....
It's winter here in Calif. so hard to collect data. I might ship some
parts off to a friend in OZ to collect data as it's summer there. But
thought I'd ask if anyone here might have done any testing of this
nature and know.

I have approx 3/4"dia by 2" long aluminum, bonded to 1/2" carbon fiber.
This resides near an engine, so worst case would likely be a hard run
through the desert, then being parked with this part in direct sunlight
while taking in heat from the engine.

Once I have an good idea what temps we might see, I can specify in the
next tensile test that the parts be heated to this temp before being
pulled.


Thanks,

Jon

200F or 200C? One inch away from the engine or one foot?

My gut feel is that if it is more than four inches away from the top end
of the engine, or more than 10 inches away from the exhaust it'll get
"ouch" hot but not "sizzle" hot. For most people, "ouch" hot is about
50C (so about 120F). "Sizzle" hot can be taken as a bit above boiling,
or 110C (230F) (I wonder just what "sizzle" hot really is...).

If the critical temperature is 200F you should probably stop now -- it'll
fail often enough in service to make you look bad, even if it usually
works fine. If the critical temperature is 200C, you're probably fine --
but I'm not a mechanical engineer, so don't go quoting _me_ on that!

--
Tim Wescott
Control systems and communications consulting
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Need to learn how to apply control theory in your embedded system?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" by Tim Wescott
Elsevier/Newnes, http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html

Jon Anderson wrote:
I am working on product that is comprised of aluminum sleeves affixed to
carbon fiber tubes with structural adhesives. We have tensile tests that
show we have more than enough strength for normal use. However, I am
looking at the 200 degree service limit for the adhesive and wondering
just how hot this part might get say, sitting in the sun out in Phoenix
in the middle of summer.....
Phoenix??!!!!! Summer!!! Black metal sitting in the SUNNNN??

I think you are in trouble. I can't absolutely guarantee a
flash to steam, but if I took a black aluminum plate and set it
on my driveway on a hot summer day in St. Louis, I think I could
get close to sizzle.

If your adhesive BEGAN to lose strength at 200 F, You might have
a chance. If it must NEVER exceed 200 F, I'd say you're sunk.
No WAY can you guarantee it will hold (whatever) together under
these conditions.
It's winter here in Calif. so hard to collect data. I might ship some
parts off to a friend in OZ to collect data as it's summer there. But
thought I'd ask if anyone here might have done any testing of this
nature and know.

There are outfits that can supply "sun simulators" for this kind
of testing. You can probably set up a couple 1000 W mercury
vapor lamps at the right distance and do it yourself. There
ought to be some kind of reference to this on the net.
I have approx 3/4"dia by 2" long aluminum, bonded to 1/2" carbon fiber.
This resides near an engine, so worst case would likely be a hard run
through the desert, then being parked with this part in direct sunlight
while taking in heat from the engine.
What? You are throwing in heat from an IC engine, too? Hell,
the exhaust can get to maybe 1500 F!

Jon

On Jan 19, 9:03 am, Jon Anderson wrote:
I am working on product that is comprised of aluminum
sleeves affixed to carbon fiber tubes with structural
adhesives. We have tensile tests that show we have more than
enough strength for normal use. However, I am looking at the
200 degree service limit for the adhesive and wondering just
how hot this part might get say, sitting in the sun out in
Phoenix in the middle of summer.....
It's winter here in Calif. so hard to collect data. I might
ship some parts off to a friend in OZ to collect data as
it's summer there. But thought I'd ask if anyone here might
have done any testing of this nature and know.

I have approx 3/4"dia by 2" long aluminum, bonded to 1/2"
carbon fiber. This resides near an engine, so worst case
would likely be a hard run through the desert, then being
parked with this part in direct sunlight while taking in
heat from the engine.

Once I have an good idea what temps we might see, I can
specify in the next tensile test that the parts be heated to
this temp before being pulled.

Thanks,

Jon

May I assume the aluminum sleeve is part of the mounting system. If
so, will it move the heat to a cooler piece of metal, or will it
conduct heat from something toward the carbon tube?

Since you mentioned desert, how does your adhesive and carbon tubes
react to UV? That is are real problem in the high desert.

Paul

Tim Wescott wrote:
My gut feel is that if it is more than four inches away from the top end
of the engine, or more than 10 inches away from the exhaust it'll get
"ouch" hot but not "sizzle" hot. For most people, "ouch" hot is about
50C (so about 120F). "Sizzle" hot can be taken as a bit above boiling,
or 110C (230F) (I wonder just what "sizzle" hot really is...).
If this is on an air-cooled engine, they spew an amazing volume
of air at 400 F or so, and will likely fill the enclosure with
that hot air, unless it is carefully rigged for the engine to
suck air from the enclosure and direct it outside with little
leakage back to the interior. The exhaust is WAY hotter, and
the radiation from exhaust pipes carrying 1500 F exhaust is
really strong.

Jon

Jon Anderson wrote:
I am working on product that is comprised of aluminum sleeves affixed to
carbon fiber tubes with structural adhesives. We have tensile tests that
show we have more than enough strength for normal use. However, I am
looking at the 200 degree service limit for the adhesive and wondering
just how hot this part might get say, sitting in the sun out in Phoenix
in the middle of summer.....

How strong does the adhesive need to be?
RTV rubber sealant is pretty sticky, and high temp grades (auto
accessory shops) might fit the bill.

Jordan

Bit more data. Temps are all F. Part is near base of
cylinders on V-twin motorcycles, in air stream, nowhere near
exhaust. My partner has had one on his bike for year, but
various things kept him from riding anywhere near as much as
he wanted. However he did get one good freeway run in and
gave the aluminum the bare hand check, was easily able to
hold his hand on the part though it was hot.

UV should not be a huge problem, only a very small portion
of the glue joint is exposed.

We're going to build a test rig and see just what's the
worst tensile load we can foresee the most ham fisted ****ed
off drunken yahoo applying.

I think I will just go ahead and ship some parts out to my
friend in Oz and let him collect some temp data from solar
radiation. I'll fab a fixture to hold the part a ways from a
decent scrap of aluminum to account at least partially for
heat coming off the engine.

Does anyone know of a source for temp recording strips? That
would be easiest. I know I looked for something like this a
year or so ago, never really found what I was looking for.

I'm referring to the ones that change color based on temp,
and they don't change back when cooled.

We might be just worrying about nothing, but without the
ultimate tensile load and temp data, we just don't know.
I am 90% certain we don't have a problem, but don't want to
hang the reputation of a new company and product on that 10%....


Jon

When I was testing materials for my solar collector I saw 190F on some
samples.

As I recall, sunlight is around 1000 watts per square meter. Add that
heat load to your ambient minus any heat conduction.

But I'd expect that your worst enemy will be heat cookoff after you shut
it down, park it in a confined or otherwise no air flow situation. I
think you will be up near your 200F limit on a regular basis.

You could probably get a good feel for the temp rise by doing a hot run,
stick a thermocouple lead on the part, see what kind of temp cycle you
get. Add that temp to the ambient, make the assumption that the temp
difference will be the same on a 120 degree day. If you don't have a
thermocouple handy, the digital cooking thermometers are pretty
accurate, just stick the tip to the part with a lump of clay.

Jon Anderson wrote:
I am working on product that is comprised of aluminum sleeves affixed to
carbon fiber tubes with structural adhesives. We have tensile tests that
show we have more than enough strength for normal use. However, I am
looking at the 200 degree service limit for the adhesive and wondering
just how hot this part might get say, sitting in the sun out in Phoenix
in the middle of summer.....
It's winter here in Calif. so hard to collect data. I might ship some
parts off to a friend in OZ to collect data as it's summer there. But
thought I'd ask if anyone here might have done any testing of this
nature and know.

I have approx 3/4"dia by 2" long aluminum, bonded to 1/2" carbon fiber.
This resides near an engine, so worst case would likely be a hard run
through the desert, then being parked with this part in direct sunlight
while taking in heat from the engine.

Once I have an good idea what temps we might see, I can specify in the
next tensile test that the parts be heated to this temp before being
pulled.


Thanks,

Jon

I used to live in Tucson and took these measurements some
years ago. I know it's not black anodized aluminum but it
is some quantified data. All measurements were made on
surfaces in full sun except where noted. A thermocouple was
placed on the surface and covered with a 12x12x1" piece
of styrofoam. The measurement was recorded when the
reading stabilized. The grass was watered the previous evening.
Art

Tucson temperatures 25July96 2PM
Air 109F
Tap Water (cold) 80F
Grass 106F
Grass, full shade 82F
Swimming pool cool deck 125F
Concrete sidewalk, light grey 163F
Dirt, bare (light tan color) 158F
Roof, flat (silver paint) 145F
Asphalt, medium grey color (seal coated) 176F

Artemus wrote:

I used to live in Tucson and took these measurements some
years ago. I know it's not black anodized aluminum but it
is some quantified data. All measurements were made on
surfaces in full sun except where noted. A thermocouple was
placed on the surface and covered with a 12x12x1" piece
of styrofoam. The measurement was recorded when the
reading stabilized. The grass was watered the previous evening.
Art

Tucson temperatures 25July96 2PM
Air 109F
Tap Water (cold) 80F
Grass 106F
Grass, full shade 82F
Swimming pool cool deck 125F
Concrete sidewalk, light grey 163F
Dirt, bare (light tan color) 158F
Roof, flat (silver paint) 145F
Asphalt, medium grey color (seal coated) 176F




### ## ## #### ## ## ##
## ## ## ## ## ## ## ## ####
## ## ## ## ## ## ## ####
## ## ## ## ## ###### ##
## ## ## ## ## ## ## ##
## ## ## ## ## ## ## ##
### ###### #### ## ## ##

Jon Anderson wrote:
Bit more data. Temps are all F. Part is near base of cylinders on V-twin
motorcycles, in air stream, nowhere near exhaust.
Yup, heat soak after the bike is shut off may be the worst.

Does anyone know of a source for temp recording strips? That would be
easiest. I know I looked for something like this a year or so ago, never
really found what I was looking for.

Tempil makes the Tempi-label. I think you can get small
quantities of a similar device through Omega, the place for all
things temperature-related, called the Omegalabel. You probably
want the non-reversible ones that permanently show the highest
temp reached. See www.omega.com

Jon

Artemus,

Thank you for the data. Doesn't help directly, but sure
supports 200F as probably well within reach.

I finally found the stick on temp recording strips I knew
were out there. Two different strips will cover 171F to
360F, and that ought to cover us. Soon as they arrive, I'm
shipping some black and polished aluminum to my friend in
Oz. Nice thing about these strips is they record max temp
reached and do reset. So my friend can just leave them out
in direct sun for a week, and tell me what he got. We can
also stick them to test samples on a bike and know we are
getting a valid peak reading, and don't have to worry about
wires or anything coming loose.

Source I found for these is:
http://www.tiptemp.com/ProductList.aspx?CategoryID=963

Jon

cavelamb,

### ## ## #### ## ## ##
## ## ## ## ## ## ## ## ####
## ## ## ## ## ## ## ####
## ## ## ## ## ###### ##
## ## ## ## ## ## ## ##
## ## ## ## ## ## ## ##
### ###### #### ## ## ##


No kidding! I grew up in the SF bay area, about 2 miles from
the bay. 90F was considered hot. Visited relatives in
Phoenix in the late 70's, and saw temps over 110. I know one
can acclimate to such temps, but that doesn't happen over
the course of a one week stay. Made the mistake of tubing
down the Verde river to cool off and was rewarded with half
dollar size blisters all over my legs. Worst sunburn I've
ever had. Thank God drinking age was 18 out there, at least
I could anesthetize myself....

Jon

On Sat, 19 Jan 2008 21:57:47 -0800, Jon Anderson wrote:

Artemus,

Thank you for the data. Doesn't help directly, but sure supports 200F as
probably well within reach.

I finally found the stick on temp recording strips I knew were out
there. Two different strips will cover 171F to 360F, and that ought to
cover us. Soon as they arrive, I'm shipping some black and polished
aluminum to my friend in Oz. Nice thing about these strips is they
record max temp reached and do reset. So my friend can just leave them
out in direct sun for a week, and tell me what he got. We can also stick
them to test samples on a bike and know we are getting a valid peak
reading, and don't have to worry about wires or anything coming loose.

Source I found for these is:
http://www.tiptemp.com/ProductList.aspx?CategoryID=963

Jon

If you have one mounted on a bike you should be able to go ride the thing
hard, then park it in the shade for a bit and measure the temperature of
the part, and the air temperature. What you want to get is the
temperature rise above ambient.

Then get your data from your friend in Oz, and make sure he gets some
idea of the air temperature there, too.

Then take the two temperature rise numbers, add them, and add them to the
110F (or more?) air temperature that you expect in Phoenix. That should
be pretty close to what you'll see in real life, but I'd add another 20%
to 40% rise to be on the safe side.

--
Tim Wescott
Control systems and communications consulting
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Need to learn how to apply control theory in your embedded system?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" by Tim Wescott
Elsevier/Newnes, http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html

On Jan 19, 11:03 am, Jon Anderson wrote:
I am working on product that is comprised of aluminum
sleeves affixed to carbon fiber tubes with structural
adhesives. We have tensile tests that show we have more than
enough strength for normal use. However, I am looking at the
200 degree service limit for the adhesive and wondering just
how hot this part might get say, sitting in the sun out in
Phoenix in the middle of summer.....
It's winter here in Calif. so hard to collect data. I might
ship some parts off to a friend in OZ to collect data as
it's summer there. But thought I'd ask if anyone here might
have done any testing of this nature and know.

I have approx 3/4"dia by 2" long aluminum, bonded to 1/2"
carbon fiber. This resides near an engine, so worst case
would likely be a hard run through the desert, then being
parked with this part in direct sunlight while taking in
heat from the engine.

Once I have an good idea what temps we might see, I can
specify in the next tensile test that the parts be heated to
this temp before being pulled.

Thanks,

Jon

Anodized aluminum has a good IR emissivity, and black anodize has a
good visible absorptivity. So you are balancing two high values.
Thus the resulting temperature is hard to calculate- you must have
exact values of solar reflectance and IR emissivity. Slight changes
to value of either has a big impact on radiant temperature.

That being said, the radiant temperature will only be really important
in a vacuum. With a material like that, conduction and especially
convection will be the dominant drivers on equillibrium value of
temperature.

On Sat, 19 Jan 2008 21:57:47 -0800, Jon Anderson
wrote:

Artemus,

Thank you for the data. Doesn't help directly, but sure
supports 200F as probably well within reach.

I finally found the stick on temp recording strips I knew
were out there. Two different strips will cover 171F to
360F, and that ought to cover us. Soon as they arrive, I'm
shipping some black and polished aluminum to my friend in
Oz. Nice thing about these strips is they record max temp
reached and do reset. So my friend can just leave them out
in direct sun for a week, and tell me what he got. We can
also stick them to test samples on a bike and know we are
getting a valid peak reading, and don't have to worry about
wires or anything coming loose.

Source I found for these is:
http://www.tiptemp.com/ProductList.aspx?CategoryID=963

Jon


temp indicators:
http://www.mcmaster.com/nav/enter.asp?pagenum=545
if your source can't do small quanities, Mcm can.

Worst case test for your part would be city traffic or parked running
bike. I.E. no air flow. Get bike good and hot with hard ride then
park bike with sun hitting the side of the running bike that has your
part and let idle for 30 minutes.

That should be a good test, add in a run through death valley for good
measure.

YMMV

Thank You,
Randy

Remove 333 from email address to reply.

"Artemus" wrote in message
. ..
I used to live in Tucson and took these measurements some
years ago. I know it's not black anodized aluminum but it
is some quantified data. All measurements were made on
surfaces in full sun except where noted. A thermocouple was
placed on the surface and covered with a 12x12x1" piece
of styrofoam. The measurement was recorded when the
reading stabilized. The grass was watered the previous evening.
Art

Tucson temperatures 25July96 2PM
Air 109F
Tap Water (cold) 80F
Grass 106F
Grass, full shade 82F
Swimming pool cool deck 125F
Concrete sidewalk, light grey 163F
Dirt, bare (light tan color) 158F
Roof, flat (silver paint) 145F
Asphalt, medium grey color (seal coated) 176F

the black tinted rear window of my vette will get hot enough that it can't
be touched with bare skin in the summer. i have to wear an oven mitt to
close it. i'd say it would be at least 150F.

regards,
charlie
cave creek, az

On Sat, 19 Jan 2008 09:03:46 -0800, Jon Anderson
wrote:

I am working on product that is comprised of aluminum
sleeves affixed to carbon fiber tubes with structural
adhesives. We have tensile tests that show we have more than
enough strength for normal use. However, I am looking at the
200 degree service limit for the adhesive and wondering just
how hot this part might get say, sitting in the sun out in
Phoenix in the middle of summer.....
It's winter here in Calif. so hard to collect data. I might
ship some parts off to a friend in OZ to collect data as
it's summer there. But thought I'd ask if anyone here might
have done any testing of this nature and know.

I have approx 3/4"dia by 2" long aluminum, bonded to 1/2"
carbon fiber. This resides near an engine, so worst case
would likely be a hard run through the desert, then being
parked with this part in direct sunlight while taking in
heat from the engine.

Once I have an good idea what temps we might see, I can
specify in the next tensile test that the parts be heated to
this temp before being pulled.

To make informed comments, we really need to know a bit more...
Not-so-Wild Guess: This is carbon-fiber engine shrouding and/or
cladding, with the aluminum tubes being the mounting tab points to the
engine block and the frame?

You'll have heat conduction from the block, through the tube,
through the glue, to the carbon fiber. This can be blocked to a
degree with plastic or ceramic washers or some other sort of heat
break at the mounting bolt. And there will only be a few "hot" mount
points to worry about, most can be "cold" in comparison.

You'll have radiant heat from the engine. And especially from the
upper cylinders and heads and the exhaust headers - this can be
significant, but you can wrap the exhaust in ceramic compounds to hold
the heat in the gases.

But you'll also have significant convection cooling helping after
shutdown, especially if you plan for clear vertical airflow paths. It
won't be blistering hot with no airflow for too long.

One thought: I wouldn't count on adhesive alone to hold the CF tube
to the AL tube. Drill at the join and put a pin or screw, or some
other mechanical connection to provide positive backup for those short
periods where the glue gets hot enough to soften.

-- Bruce --

On Mon, 21 Jan 2008 12:54:34 -0700, with neither quill nor qualm,
"charlie" quickly quoth:

the black tinted rear window of my vette will get hot enough that it can't
be touched with bare skin in the summer. i have to wear an oven mitt to
close it. i'd say it would be at least 150F.

When I attended UTI in Phoenix in '72, I came out to go to school one
fine December morning. It was 17 degrees. When I came out at noon to
go to lunch, I couldn't touch my white Ford Ranch Wagon. It was 110F
in the shade. That's the desert for ya: one helluva range in weather
in one day.

--
You cannot depend on your eyes when your imagination is out of focus.
-- Mark Twain

Bruce L. Bergman wrote:

To make informed comments, we really need to know a bit more...

Not quite ready to discuss exact details. But it's not
shrouding and does not bolt to the engine. It's out in free
air flow while riding, but is near the crank case. While a
few true customs sometimes have exhaust on the left side of
a Harley engine, that's pretty rare. This mounts on the
opposite side so exhaust is not an issue.

It's the combination of radiant heat from the engine and
absorbed heat from direct sun that I am looking to account
for. The first test unit has been in use for a year, and
several times during 100 degree heat. It was just checked by
grabbing, after a decent highway run, and was not hot enough
that it couldn't be held. But we didn't account for it
sitting in direct hot sun while soaking up heat from the engine.

We are 90% confident we're OK, just looking to verify. And
switch adhesives if we have to. We've now located adhesives
good to over 400F which most certainly is overkill, but at
least in the worst case, we have that option.

Nothing quite like this exists at present, since we're
starting small we are a bit secretive about the specifics.
There are accessory manufacturers that have national or
global distribution that could beat us to market if they
knew what we had and thought it could sell. If we are
successful we know we will be copied, we just want to make
sure WE get credit for being the first to market.

Jon

"Jon Anderson" wrote in message
. ..
Bruce L. Bergman wrote:

To make informed comments, we really need to know a bit more...

Not quite ready to discuss exact details. But it's not
shrouding and does not bolt to the engine. It's out in free
air flow while riding, but is near the crank case. While a
few true customs sometimes have exhaust on the left side of
a Harley engine, that's pretty rare. This mounts on the
opposite side so exhaust is not an issue.

It's the combination of radiant heat from the engine and
absorbed heat from direct sun that I am looking to account
for. The first test unit has been in use for a year, and
several times during 100 degree heat. It was just checked by
grabbing, after a decent highway run, and was not hot enough
that it couldn't be held. But we didn't account for it
sitting in direct hot sun while soaking up heat from the engine.

We are 90% confident we're OK, just looking to verify. And
switch adhesives if we have to. We've now located adhesives
good to over 400F which most certainly is overkill, but at
least in the worst case, we have that option.

Nothing quite like this exists at present, since we're
starting small we are a bit secretive about the specifics.
There are accessory manufacturers that have national or
global distribution that could beat us to market if they
knew what we had and thought it could sell. If we are
successful we know we will be copied, we just want to make
sure WE get credit for being the first to market.

Jon

Have you looked into whether it's patentable? That could give
you protection from the competition.
Even if it's not there is the Design Copyright, while not ironclad,
which can slow them down.
Art

Chigger wrote:

Have you looked into whether it's patentable? That could give
you protection from the competition.
Even if it's not there is the Design Copyright, while not ironclad,
which can slow them down.
Art


Patents have their place, but the time and cost of getting
one is just not worth it for something like this. For small
companies like ourselves, the idea is to hit the street hard
and fast and get as much exposure as possible, while working
on the next project. Our biggest dream right now is to get
OCC to put one on a bike, while mentioning our name on the
air. No doubt then, who was first, and that 3-4 seconds of
air time would be worth thousands in advertising. They do
sell other peoples components and we have been in contact
with them.

A patent btw, only gives us the right to sue an infringer. I
have better places to spend my money than on attorney fees
for something of this scale!


I have another idea that is worth patenting. Initial market
research showed a good potential of capturing 60% of the
global market, US market alone worth over 6 million per
year. I can't afford to patent it, let alone try and produce
it. Any serious production effort would require hundreds of
thousands of dollars in facilities, injection molding,
automated handling and packaging. Very high volume, low
profit. It's worth using a good patent attorney, and seeking
funding, but can't afford the first step, so I just sit on
it and hope like many other ideas over the years, someone
doesn't beat me to the punch.

If the motorcycle parts business does well, we will look
into funding the patent and seek investors in a few years.
My partner knows what it is and likes it and the potential.

Time will tell!

Jon

On Mon, 21 Jan 2008 17:26:44 -0800, Jon Anderson
wrote:

Bruce L. Bergman wrote:

To make informed comments, we really need to know a bit more...

Not quite ready to discuss exact details. But it's not
shrouding and does not bolt to the engine. It's out in free
air flow while riding, but is near the crank case. While a
few true customs sometimes have exhaust on the left side of
a Harley engine, that's pretty rare. This mounts on the
opposite side so exhaust is not an issue.

It's the combination of radiant heat from the engine and
absorbed heat from direct sun that I am looking to account
for. The first test unit has been in use for a year, and
several times during 100 degree heat. It was just checked by
grabbing, after a decent highway run, and was not hot enough
that it couldn't be held. But we didn't account for it
sitting in direct hot sun while soaking up heat from the engine.

So. Did you notice where I mentioned a backup mechanical connection
besides the adhesive? You have the outer body of this "item" bonded
to the round carbon-fiber fitting on the back, that the aluminum
tubing mount bracket is glued into - drill a hole, install a cotter
pin. Or two pop rivets.

Remember, even with the adhesive rated for 400F, you still have to
deal with creep. When under long term low levels of stress the bonded
parts will move, the adhesive will flow like amber and allow rotation
and/or separation. Aluminum won't creep, carbon fiber polyester resin
won't creep, but glues sure will.

They used a hard epoxy and threaded rod studs to bond the concrete
'drop ceiling' panels to the tunnel roof in the Boston "Big Dig"
tunnels - but those epoxy anchors were loaded in pure tension, and
they creeped out. And I think you heard about what happened next...

-- Bruce --

Bruce L. Bergman wrote:

So. Did you notice where I mentioned a backup mechanical connection
besides the adhesive?

Yes I did. And if we used pop rivets, we would be laughed
out of the industry. When we start shipping, I'll post a
link to our product as well as a link to a comparable item
that uses pop rivets, and you will see what I am talking
about. Theirs btw, almost works for the look they are trying
to achieve, but they still fall short of a finished looking
product.

I appreciate the concern you express, but there is no
constant load, only very short term load spikes. For the
finished item, appearance is everything. If the parts do not
fly with adhesive, we have a back up plan to use a metal
stud to tie the ends together. This will require some
alteration to the internal design, but we really don't see
it as being necessary.

I keep forgetting, but my partner used to work for Failure
Analysis, and is well versed in testing, and still has
connections with people that have diverse knowledge. I took
it upon myself to start asking some questions before I
brought it up to him, I wanted to present at least some
data. But he saw right away that we really did need to test
for the worst case. Now that we have decided to really nail
down a definitive answer, we're going to determine actual
maximum load conditions and maximum worst case temps, and
test under those conditions.

Our gut feeling right now is that we have a 10x safety
factor at room temp. Life critical safety factors generally
run 2x to 3x, and we suspect we are still within that range
at 200F. Tests will tell....

Thanks,

Jon

"Jon Anderson" wrote in message
. ..
Bruce L. Bergman wrote:

So. Did you notice where I mentioned a backup mechanical connection
besides the adhesive?

Yes I did. And if we used pop rivets, we would be laughed out of the
industry. When we start shipping, I'll post a link to our product as well
as a link to a comparable item that uses pop rivets, and you will see what
I am talking about. Theirs btw, almost works for the look they are trying
to achieve, but they still fall short of a finished looking product.

I appreciate the concern you express, but there is no constant load, only
very short term load spikes. For the finished item, appearance is
everything. If the parts do not fly with adhesive, we have a back up plan
to use a metal stud to tie the ends together. This will require some
alteration to the internal design, but we really don't see it as being
necessary.

I keep forgetting, but my partner used to work for Failure Analysis, and
is well versed in testing, and still has connections with people that have
diverse knowledge. I took it upon myself to start asking some questions
before I brought it up to him, I wanted to present at least some data. But
he saw right away that we really did need to test for the worst case. Now
that we have decided to really nail down a definitive answer, we're going
to determine actual maximum load conditions and maximum worst case temps,
and test under those conditions.

Our gut feeling right now is that we have a 10x safety factor at room
temp. Life critical safety factors generally run 2x to 3x, and we suspect
we are still within that range at 200F. Tests will tell....

Thanks,

Jon


Anyone suggested Sikaflex 291? It may be worth a look:

http://www.sikaindustry.com/tds-ipd-sikaflex291-us.pdf

Robbo wrote:

Anyone suggested Sikaflex 291? It may be worth a look:


Tensile strength of only 260psi, otherwise seems to have
some decent numbers. It's listed as a sealant though, not
for bonding.

Jon

On Mon, 21 Jan 2008 18:35:36 -0800, Jon Anderson
wrote:

Chigger wrote:

Have you looked into whether it's patentable? That could give
you protection from the competition.
Even if it's not there is the Design Copyright, while not ironclad,
which can slow them down.
Art

Patents have their place, but the time and cost of getting
one is just not worth it for something like this. For small
companies like ourselves, the idea is to hit the street hard
and fast and get as much exposure as possible, while working
on the next project. Our biggest dream right now is to get
OCC to put one on a bike, while mentioning our name on the
air. No doubt then, who was first, and that 3-4 seconds of
air time would be worth thousands in advertising. They do
sell other peoples components and we have been in contact
with them.

A patent btw, only gives us the right to sue an infringer. I
have better places to spend my money than on attorney fees
for something of this scale!

I have another idea that is worth patenting. Initial market
research showed a good potential of capturing 60% of the
global market, US market alone worth over 6 million per
year. I can't afford to patent it, let alone try and produce
it. Any serious production effort would require hundreds of
thousands of dollars in facilities, injection molding,
automated handling and packaging. Very high volume, low
profit. It's worth using a good patent attorney, and seeking
funding, but can't afford the first step, so I just sit on
it and hope like many other ideas over the years, someone
doesn't beat me to the punch.

If the motorcycle parts business does well, we will look
into funding the patent and seek investors in a few years.
My partner knows what it is and likes it and the potential.

Time will tell!

I have a patented (US) high flow air cleaner system for Evo's and
TC's. It didn't mean squat in th' real world when not only th' design
aspects were ripped off by arlen ness, but H-D also stole th' ****in'
name. They have bigger lawyers than I do. Game over.

Snarl

wrote:

I have a patented (US) high flow air cleaner system for Evo's and
TC's. It didn't mean squat in th' real world when not only th' design
aspects were ripped off by arlen ness, but H-D also stole th' ****in'
name. They have bigger lawyers than I do. Game over.

I hear ya. We were at the Easy Riders show in Sacramento
last week. Just walking around and talking to people. We
were very careful to not let some people see our product.
Not to say we would be ripped off, just to be safe. Any
larger builder than had his own manufacturing, we skipped,
like Paul Yaffe. We talked to him a bit about his parts, and
when he said he manufactured his own products, we
complimented him on being all USA made, and moved on.

Did talk to a couple smaller builders that really liked what
we had and want to use it on upcoming projects. And once
we're sorted out and ready to really produce, we'll approach
OCC and some of the big name builders. Last will be trying
to get into J&P, Custom Chrome, etc.

It's damned tough for the little guy. Any such that innovate
have just drawn a bulls eye on their backs if they are
successful at all, or have a good idea but lack distribution.

We have trademarked our company name/logo and will be
trademarking the name of this particular line of parts.
That's a lot cheaper than a patent and it's easier to nail
someone for trademark infringement than for patent infringement.

Were you driven entirely out of the market? Did you ever
actually manufacture any yourself? If so, are you still
making them?


Jon

Jon Anderson wrote:
Robbo wrote:

Anyone suggested Sikaflex 291? It may be worth a look:


Tensile strength of only 260psi, otherwise seems to have some decent
numbers. It's listed as a sealant though, not for bonding.

Jon

I've used Sikaflex on my boat. It may not be promoted as a glue, but I
was chewing bits of it off my fingers for several days afterwards. It
made me think it's probably not such a bad bonding product!

Jordan

"Jordan" wrote in message
u...
Jon Anderson wrote:
Robbo wrote:

Anyone suggested Sikaflex 291? It may be worth a look:


Tensile strength of only 260psi, otherwise seems to have some decent
numbers. It's listed as a sealant though, not for bonding.

Jon

I've used Sikaflex on my boat. It may not be promoted as a glue, but I was
chewing bits of it off my fingers for several days afterwards. It made me
think it's probably not such a bad bonding product!

Jordan

Some of the data sheets refer to it as an adhesive.

"Sikaflex®-291 is a one-component, low viscous, medium modulus,
polyurethane-based sealing/adhesive compound. This all-purpose grade is used
for general ..."

It sticks like sh*t to a blanket. There are primers that improve bonding,
however it seems to work quite well without it.

On Wed, 23 Jan 2008 12:30:34 -0800, Jon Anderson
wrote:

wrote:

I have a patented (US) high flow air cleaner system for Evo's and
TC's. It didn't mean squat in th' real world when not only th' design
aspects were ripped off by arlen ness, but H-D also stole th' ****in'
name. They have bigger lawyers than I do. Game over.

I hear ya. We were at the Easy Riders show in Sacramento
last week. Just walking around and talking to people. We
were very careful to not let some people see our product.
Not to say we would be ripped off, just to be safe. Any
larger builder than had his own manufacturing, we skipped,
like Paul Yaffe. We talked to him a bit about his parts, and
when he said he manufactured his own products, we
complimented him on being all USA made, and moved on.

Just MHO, but my experience leads me to believe th' made in USA guys
are less of a threat than th' thievin' cocksuckers like ness. He has
most of his **** made overseas and doesn't care.

Did talk to a couple smaller builders that really liked what
we had and want to use it on upcoming projects. And once
we're sorted out and ready to really produce, we'll approach
OCC and some of the big name builders. Last will be trying
to get into J&P, Custom Chrome, etc.

Best of luck to you guys and at least have some fun with it. I did.

It's damned tough for the little guy. Any such that innovate
have just drawn a bulls eye on their backs if they are
successful at all, or have a good idea but lack distribution.

About all you can do is try to get yer investment dinero back out of
it and try like hell to get a loyal customer base who won't go with
th' cheap rip-off's that'll surely pop up sooner or later.

Were you driven entirely out of the market?

No, but I did stop production. Mostly because I can't compete with
th' over seas ****. I'm into one complete unit over $175.00, add in a
reasonable profit margin and my market share goes way down. People
would rather pay for cheap bling, bling, than a high quality US made
part. Tell ya this much, when you hold one of my backing plates in
yer paws, you *know* that this thing didn't come from China g.

Did you ever actually manufacture any yourself?

Yes, they were sand casted locally and we finish machined them. All
manual machines, no CNC. Th' air filters are a K&N product. I made
some tooling (quality control jig) that ensures *every* part is right
on, or it goes into th' scrap pile.

If so, are you still making them?

Nope. Have a few left, but not sure I want th' grief to do battle
with H-D over 'em. They stole my name and I can prove it, but that
means lawyers, and headaches, and a bunch of other bull**** I don't
have time for right now. I still have everything to ramp back up,
but...

Best of luck to ya Jon!

Snarl