In article ,
"William Noble" wrote:

" I have shopped for genuine Aloris (USA-made) and the unavoidable
imported copies of the Aloris design, on eBay mostly. I ended up
purchasing a new toolpost kit that came with 5 toolholders, in BXA
size. This is the wedge-dovetail clamp design, not the piston-clamp
design. The wedge design is considerably more rigid from a usage
standpoint. The imported kit I bought was about $140 complete, as I
recall. I couldn't justify the $500+ price for the new genuine Aloris
setup. There is a high degree of interchangeability between the
toolholders, though, and I continue to look for Aloris toolholders in
the used market. I see them go for anywhere from $25-75 depending on
condition and type, and the level of supply and demand. There are
several suppliers on eBay that have the same imported kit(s), from
China undoubtedly. I just picked the cheapest price and didn't look
back --

From what I hear, Phase II sells a reasonable Aloris clone. See the
recent posting by DoN in this thread.

Joe Gwinn

my experience is that the chinese (and worse, Indian) copies of Aloris are
really not up to snuff - for about the same price as new chinese you can
get used Aloris - the hardening is better, the operation is smoother, and
the fit is better

This was my fear too. I just priced new Aloris and Phase II in the MSC
catalog, and promptly lost interest in Phase II. The price difference
just isn't large enough. I'll have to see how used prices run.


Joe Gwinn

In article ,
"DoN. Nichols" wrote:

On 2008-01-01, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
In article ,
"DoN. Nichols" wrote:

[ ... ]

If you have the collet adaptor in the spindle, and the locking
ring around the spindle is not rattling loose, then it must be drawn up
on a nose protector. To eject the adaptor:

1) Remove any collet from the adaptor.

2) Start turning the ring to unscrew it from the protector. It
will start a bit tight (especially with your spooge), then get
loose, then as it move far enough to touch the flange of the
adaptor, will get tight again until you move it far enough so
the collet adaptor pops loose. (Keep a hand ready to catch it,
it may jump quite a ways, given how long it probably has been in
place.)

I'll try this.

It should work -- and then give you a chance to clean the
threads of both the ring and the nose protector.

I always store the collet adaptor in the protector so I will
remember to put it on before installing the collet adaptor. :-)

I started doing this, but chickened out. I'll wait till I have read the
manual.


Must be there somewhere, but no paddle lever.

Looking at the photo which someone posted, the paddle lever has
been replaced with a black knob on the front. It either rotates to
select the three positions, or it pulls out and pushes in with detents.
Look for numbers on the front as a clue as to whether it rotates or
pulls.

I have the black knob, with three positions marked A, B, and C.

Good. The chart lists the paddle lever positions as left,
center, and right. Less space on yours.

[ ... ]

It has a three-position switch: forward-off-reverse. I will bypass this
switch, as the VFD will not approve of live switching of motor wiring.

Keep the switch -- but wire it to the control pins of the VFD
instead of the motor windings. There are enough contacts in the switch
so you can easily find a SPDTCO (Single-Pole Double-Throw, Center-Off)
section to run to the VFD's control pins. It is likely to be combined
with a second switch throwing the other way for the other side of a
winding which is normally reversed by the switching. Just ignore this
other side. :-)

It will certainly have enough contacts.

I would mention that one must use shielded wire from VFD to this switch.
Likewise, to any speed-control pot.

Agreed. And you can make a housing for the pot to mount just
below the switch, perhaps?

That was one thought. Or inside something, if there is space.


Of course -- you will have to dig through the manual of your VFD
to find the parameter which needs to be set to get it to pay attention
to the control contacts instead of the front panel buttons.

Not a problem. Already figured out how to do this for the Mill, when I
built a control pendant.

Good enough.

The mechanical variable-speed control does not reverse; this is
accomplished by the above switch.

O.K. So you *want* to wire the switch to control the VFD. Any
other arrangement is more awkward and develops the wrong muscle memory
for using other lathes.

Yes. My only worry is if abrupt reversal of direction through off will
cause a problem. I think it's OK to do this, because it's only a
command the the VFD, which can implement the command gracefully, without
sparks. But I'll be reading the VFD manual.

Remember -- the VFD has a programmable acceleration and
deceleration. Those values are used when the switch goes from forward
to reverse as well. (Which can make such switching a bit safer with a
threaded nose, as you are less likely to unscrew the chuck. :-) But
with your L-00 nose, there is no problem anyway.

I've read the manual for the old VFD, and it makes no warnings about
abrupt reversal of direction using the direction controls. I'll try
this on the mill, which uses this old VFD. I've done abrupt reversal by
mistake a few times already, and there was no drama. Given the
liklihood of such reversals in practice, I don't see how it could be any
other way.

Joe Gwinn


[ ... ]

I've figured out all the controls on the headstock. The key was the
metal chart telling what combination of controls gives what thread pitch.

Good.

Enjoy,
DoN.

In article ,
"DoN. Nichols" wrote:

On 2008-01-01, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
In article ,
"DoN. Nichols" wrote:

On 2007-12-31, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
In article ,
"DoN. Nichols" wrote:

[ ... ]

What *I* have is labeled with an EMCO tag, with no clues
whether it was made by someone else. I have seen a set of the same
size

[ ... ]

Emco also made a different version where the T-slot in the
holders is off center, and a T-headed bolt runs through the block
(clearing the center bolt) with a nut on the opposite side to lock the
tool holder down. I've never seen these except in the service manual
for the Compact-5/CNC.

So, Emco is another possible source.

Note that is *Emco* -- not *Enco*. Emco is the Austrian maker
of lathes and milling machines which made my little 5" CNC lathe. They
used to make a matching manual lathe, but no longer do so.

I was reading it as Enco. Oh well.

That is what I was afraid of. It is a pity that the two names
are so similar.

[ ... ]

I don't think this toolpost came with the lathe, as it is cobbled to
the
lathe.

Note that when you get a new post -- even from Aloris -- unless
you have paid extra for the mounting plate to be specifically machined
for your lathe (in which case you will need to feed them information
about the lathe's T-slot), you will receive a blank mounting plate,
which you will need to mill to the proper dimensions for *your* T-slot.
Usually, this simply requires changing something like this:

/ /
/ /
+----------------------------------------+
| |
| | /
| |/
+----------------------------------------+

to something like this:

/ / / / / /
/ / / / / /
/ +------------------+ / / /
/ | |/ / /
+----------+ +----------+ /
| |/
+----------------------------------------+

So it will slide into the T-slot, leaving the height of the center just
a little below the top of the compound when it is pulled up as tight as
it can be. There is a pre-tapped hole in the center of the plate which
accepts the mounting rod on the toolpost.

Is the above plate what becomes the big T-nut that goes in the big
T-slot on the top of the compound rest?

That is correct. It comes as a blank with a new toolpost (at
least so with the new Phase-II toolpost, which is the only post which I
have had new.)

OK.


If so, it came with one of
these. It looks shopmade, by someone with a vertical mill. The T-nut
screws onto a piece of 5/8-18 UNF threaded rod that goes through the
toolpost body, a spacer, and a hex nut. The big problem with the
shopmade T-nut is that the 5/8-18 thread is not quite perpendicular to
the faces of the T-Nut, and so the nut wobbles visibly on the rod. The
rod threads are damaged, and the rod may also be slightly bent. So they
had the mill, but perhaps not quite the skill.

Hmm ... the Phase-II has a metric thread which is quite similar
to your 5/8-18 -- probably a 16mm thread. And the plate comes
pre-tapped in the center of the plate -- but you do have to mill down
the plate to make it into a 'T'.

OK. If one buys a new Aloris, they will make the plate for you,
partially ofsetting the cost differential. With used, one will make
one's own plate.


What appears to be missing is the shallow "T-nut" plate that goes
between the top of the compound rest and the bottom of the toolpost
body, and has a series of 8mm holes to accept the index pin. I assume
that this plate also serves to space the toolpost up to the correct
height with respect to the spindle axis.

Did you see one in the Dickson catalog? (I got there too late
to download it, so I don't know what it has. Probably there is a new
one up by now. :-)

I haven't yet gotten that catalog.

Having cleaned and inspected the Dickson toolpost and holders that came
with the lathe, I'm losing interest. They are quite heavily used and in
some cases abused. Some of the setscrews are bulging and cracking near
the tips, and will need to be replaced with dog-point hex socket cap
screws. I had to drill the stub of one busted setscrew out.

That said, I'll probably fabricate a proper set of plates, and keep the
Dickson system as a backup.


But my guess that the pin served for an index was assuming that
it was spring loaded and did not project very far. Looking at the
images from the Toolmex catalog, I see that there is a pin which goes
all the way through the body of the toolpost -- which suggests that it
is expecting a hole to be drilled to accept it for setting it properly,
but that won't work on a compound like what we have on the Clausings,
because those can be set to any angle. You might drill a hole to match
the pin at the single most common setting (on my Clausing and Phase-II
toolpost, that would be at the 29-1/2 degrees for right-hand threading.

There is a pin, but it is loose, without springs.


However -- my Emco clone of a Dickson does *not* have such a
pin, and there is where such a pin would be most useful, since the
toolpost mounts directly to a steel plate on the cross slide, and it
can't be set to other angles.

As for the height -- that is handled by the nuts on the screws
on the tool holders -- so each is set to the proper height for its own
tool. I somehow doubt that you would need to block up the ToolMex or
Dickson on the Clausing compound.

None of these height adjustment pancake nuts came with the set, and the
posts onto which they thread are mostly in bad shape. The mangled
threaded posts can be replaced, but it will be an effort to get the old
ones out. They are very hard, and appear to be upsidedown hex-socket
setscrews.


But -- perhaps you should get some stock of the proper thickness
and size and make your own T-nut with the threading being done in the
lathe -- mark the center by scribing a pair of diagonal lines between
opposite corners. Hold it in the 4-jaw chuck and adjust so that
intersection point is truly on center. Then center drill for a start,
drill through tap drill size, and using the live center in the center
hole in the back end of the tap, drive the tap with a wrench as you use
the live center to push it. I would use a gun tap if available, to
avoid having to keep backing up the center and the tap to break chips.

Yes. And I did get the 4-jaw chuck. What I didn't get is the slotted
faceplate. Drat!

Can also be done on the mill, using a piloted tap wrench. I may just
skip the holes for the 8mm locator pin until such time as a need
presents itself.


Once the hole is on center -- and truly perpendicular to the
plate -- then mill the sides to make it into the right size T-nut. I've
done this to make a spare T-nut with the right post threads to allow
mounting a toolpost grinder on the compound. And *that* I also needed
to make a spacer cylinder to start it off at proper center height to
save time during subsequent setups. (I haven't actually *used* the
toolpost grinder yet -- but it is now ready for use. :-)

[ ... ]

I'll keep an eye out for BXA posts and holders. What's a reasonable
price?

There *is* no reasonable price in my opinion (as a retired
hobbyist on a fixed income) -- especially for a genuine Aloris. As a
result, I have a set of Phase-II wedge style which I got when they were

[ ... ]

Note that AXA size holds up to 1/2" shank tools, while the BXA
holds up to 5/8" shank tools -- and that extra 1/8" does make a
difference in rigidity.

Yes. Rigidity varies as the cube of the critical dimension (diameter in
this case), so (0.625/0.500)^3= 1.95, call it twice as rigid.

Well ... since the shanks are square, there is no diameter here,
but that is close enough. :-) Probably a little more strength for the
corners which would be missing in a round shank -- but pretty much the
same for both sizes of square shank so the ratio is probably the same.

I've also picked up some interesting Aloris only tools,
including a very nice knurling tool in which the knurls are held in two
arms which move on a vertical dovetail, with a leadscrew coupling them
with a left-hand thread for one and a right-hand thread for the other,
so they maintain the centering on the axis (once initially set), while
you adjust the spacing for the size of the workpiece being knurled. The
knurls apply to the top and bottom instead of having to be pressed in
with the cross-slide, so the load forces on the machine are much less
than with the common "bump" style knurlers -- which are often supplied
as part of an Aloris or Aloris-style kit. Those are mostly useful for
facing, using the half-toolholder in the other end. :-)

I think I need an Aloris catalog, to know the options and their prices.

That will tell you the options -- but I don't think that you
will find prices. For that, I use my MSC catalog as the reference. (It
also has a pretty good listing for all of the options available.)

Yep. They do command a fine price, they do.

Which toolholders do you recommend I start with, by Aloris number, and
why. You mentioned a few, but without the numbers it's hard for me to
connect the dots.


Joe Gwinn

On 2008-01-02, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
In article ,
"DoN. Nichols" wrote:

[ ... ]

That is correct. It comes as a blank with a new toolpost (at
least so with the new Phase-II toolpost, which is the only post which I
have had new.)

OK.

[ ... ]

Hmm ... the Phase-II has a metric thread which is quite similar
to your 5/8-18 -- probably a 16mm thread. And the plate comes
pre-tapped in the center of the plate -- but you do have to mill down
the plate to make it into a 'T'.

OK. If one buys a new Aloris, they will make the plate for you,
partially ofsetting the cost differential. With used, one will make
one's own plate.

O.K. I did not know that for sure. (And see later -- this does
not seem to be really the case.) They would either have to have
measurements from you for *your* T-slot (as they vary a lot), or know
the model of the lathe and know for sure that it is the original
compound. It *may* be pre-cut for the largest likely T-slot, and have to
be cut down some more for other sizes.

[ ... ]

Having cleaned and inspected the Dickson toolpost and holders that came
with the lathe, I'm losing interest. They are quite heavily used and in
some cases abused. Some of the setscrews are bulging and cracking near
the tips, and will need to be replaced with dog-point hex socket cap
screws. I had to drill the stub of one busted setscrew out.

As for the height -- that is handled by the nuts on the screws
on the tool holders -- so each is set to the proper height for its own
tool. I somehow doubt that you would need to block up the ToolMex or
Dickson on the Clausing compound.

None of these height adjustment pancake nuts came with the set, and the
posts onto which they thread are mostly in bad shape. The mangled
threaded posts can be replaced, but it will be an effort to get the old
ones out. They are very hard, and appear to be upsidedown hex-socket
setscrews.

I'll bet that they are set in with Locktite. If so -- heat the
holder while gently twisting the mangled screws with small vise-grips.
You don't need to (and shouldn't) apply much torque -- just a little.
When it gets hot enough, the wrench will turn easily, so you know when
to stop heating. Then just replace them with allthread or long
setscrews as appropriate.

You ideally should have at least one height-adjusting nut to
copy. But if you don't, here are the things to bear in mind.

1) The flange goes between two flanges on the top of the cam
one continuous, and one (the upper) interrupted to allow the
tool holder to be lifted clear. The thickness of the flange on
the nuts which you make need to be just a little thinner than
the spacing between the two flanges.

2) The diameter of the flange needs to be enough to reach from the
stud almost to the bottom of the groove between flanges on the
locking cam.

3) The height of the stud on the holder should be high enough to
allow the height-adjusting nut to be screwed on enough to hold
with base of the holder level with the base of the toolpost, and
short enough to allow the nut to be screwed on enough to lift the
holder on the V-rails so its top is level with the top of the
post. The Height adjusting nut needs to be long enough to allow
some threads from the stud at the lowest position of the tool
holder, and some threads from the lock screw at the highest
position of the tool holder.

And the ones which I have use Metric threaded setscrews and
height post screws. (But they are too small to fit our Clausings
anyway). Check to make sure whether you have metric or imperial threads
on yours.

[ ... ]

Yes. And I did get the 4-jaw chuck. What I didn't get is the slotted
faceplate. Drat!

Can also be done on the mill, using a piloted tap wrench. I may just
skip the holes for the 8mm locator pin until such time as a need
presents itself.

That seems reasonable. I do wish that mine for the
Compact-5/CNC had the pin -- because *there* it would make sense.

[ ... ]

I think I need an Aloris catalog, to know the options and their prices.

That will tell you the options -- but I don't think that you
will find prices. For that, I use my MSC catalog as the reference. (It
also has a pretty good listing for all of the options available.)

Yep. They do command a fine price, they do.

:-)

Which toolholders do you recommend I start with, by Aloris number, and
why. You mentioned a few, but without the numbers it's hard for me to
connect the dots.

O.K. MSC catalog time. Sigh -- I wonder which volume now that
they have split it in two. :-)

Hmm ... first off -- the notes accompanying a set of Aloris
toolpost and holders says:

"Tool post T-nut may require machining for your application"

so don't depend on Aloris doing it all for you. :-)

First - the ones which come in the sets:

1) Style 1 -- turning and facing. Get quite a few of these, since
you want to have one for each tool which you are likely to use
often, so they all can be set to the proper height -- or you
lose part of the quick-change feature.

2) Style 2 -- boring, turning and facing. The difference here is
that there is a V down the center of the bottom of the slot,
good for holding boring bars, but still usable for the other
tools as well.

3) Style 4 -- boring, heavy duty. This is what you use to hold
a 1" diameter boring bar which accepts HSS lathe bits. I've
used this both for boring and for internal Acme threading which
a home-ground HSS tool. But you are unlikely to need more than
one.

4) Style 7 -- Universal parting (cut-off). This, with a Mo-Max
cobalt steel T-profile parting tool is very nice to have.

5) Style 10 -- knurling, facing, and turning. Only if someone
*gives* it to you -- and only to use for facing not for
knurling. For knurling -- either a scissors style knurling tool
or the one which I will describe later.

Above -- replace the word "Style" with BXA-" to get the full
part number.

Now -- others which I find of interest.

6)* BXA-13 -- "new extension tool holder" -- good for threading
without hitting the tailstock live center. (I would like to
have a couple more of these, but I do have *one* -- bought new.

7) BXA-5 and BXA-53 -- Morse taper holders -- useful for drilling
with carriage power feed. In the BXA size, the 5 is MT-2, and
the 53 is MT-3 -- both useful -- though with only one, go for
the 53, and get an adaptor sleeve from MT-2 to MT-3.

8)* BXA-6 -- multiple tool holder. A grid of setscrews to hold
more than one tool at a time -- groove and bevel or part at the
same time for production work -- usually best with a turret
handling other tasks.

9) BXA-19 -- the fancy knurling tool which I mentioned above and
earlier. $286 in the MSC catalog at present -- perhaps more
when you call in, because prices keep going up.

10)* BXA-16N or BXA-16. The double-ended insert holder. The 'N' is
for negative rake tools -- which with the right chipbreaker
groove still cut as positive -- but which have six cutting
points instead of three for the triangular inserts.

The ones marked with a '*' after the ')' are the only ones which
I bought new -- because I needed them, and I could never find a
reasonable enough price in eBay auctions -- only perhaps $10.00 less
than new price.

There are other interesting ones -- but these are the ones I
have, either genuine Aloris bought new (the ones marked with '*', or
Phase-II or used Aloris for the others.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On 2008-01-02, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
In article ,
"DoN. Nichols" wrote:

[ ... ]

If you have the collet adaptor in the spindle, and the locking
ring around the spindle is not rattling loose, then it must be drawn up
on a nose protector. To eject the adaptor:

1) Remove any collet from the adaptor.

2) Start turning the ring to unscrew it from the protector. It
will start a bit tight (especially with your spooge), then get
loose, then as it move far enough to touch the flange of the
adaptor, will get tight again until you move it far enough so
the collet adaptor pops loose. (Keep a hand ready to catch it,
it may jump quite a ways, given how long it probably has been in
place.)

I'll try this.

It should work -- and then give you a chance to clean the
threads of both the ring and the nose protector.

I always store the collet adaptor in the protector so I will
remember to put it on before installing the collet adaptor. :-)

I started doing this, but chickened out. I'll wait till I have read the
manual.

I doubt that the manual will say anything about it. If you got
a manual for the collet closer as well -- *that* might have more
information. There was no mention in my manual of the collet closer
(with the 2-1/4x8 spindle nose -- even though it was fitted from the
factory.

[ ... ]

Agreed. And you can make a housing for the pot to mount just
below the switch, perhaps?

That was one thought. Or inside something, if there is space.

*No*! Almost anywhere inside the lathe is likely to have swarf
floating past -- and if it shorts across two of the terminals of the
pot, either your speed will go to zero, or to full -- and the pot may
get burned out as well. Mill up a housing for it and be sure to protect
the wire entry holes from chip entry -- grommets, or perhaps fill around
the wire entry with RTV.

I *think* that the supply terminals from the VFD are protected
against shorting -- but that may vary with brand.

[ ... ]

Yes. My only worry is if abrupt reversal of direction through off will
cause a problem. I think it's OK to do this, because it's only a
command the the VFD, which can implement the command gracefully, without
sparks. But I'll be reading the VFD manual.

Remember -- the VFD has a programmable acceleration and
deceleration. Those values are used when the switch goes from forward
to reverse as well. (Which can make such switching a bit safer with a
threaded nose, as you are less likely to unscrew the chuck. :-) But
with your L-00 nose, there is no problem anyway.

I've read the manual for the old VFD, and it makes no warnings about
abrupt reversal of direction using the direction controls. I'll try
this on the mill, which uses this old VFD. I've done abrupt reversal by
mistake a few times already, and there was no drama. Given the
liklihood of such reversals in practice, I don't see how it could be any
other way.

Given the weight of the largest chuck -- probably a 4-jaw -- and
the torque needed to accelerate that (even without a load) -- you want
to set the acceleration time down far enough so it won't trip the
over-current under those conditions -- and then a bit more to allow for
the weight of a workpiece in the chuck. (Note that a 4-jaw at full
speed can be a scary object anyway -- and always have the jaws firmly
clamped on something so they don't back out and get launched across the
shop -- or into you.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

In article ,
"DoN. Nichols" wrote:

On 2008-01-02, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
In article ,
"DoN. Nichols" wrote:

[ ... ]

If you have the collet adaptor in the spindle, and the locking
ring around the spindle is not rattling loose, then it must be drawn up
on a nose protector. To eject the adaptor:

1) Remove any collet from the adaptor.

2) Start turning the ring to unscrew it from the protector. It
will start a bit tight (especially with your spooge), then get
loose, then as it move far enough to touch the flange of the
adaptor, will get tight again until you move it far enough so
the collet adaptor pops loose. (Keep a hand ready to catch it,
it may jump quite a ways, given how long it probably has been in
place.)

I'll try this.

It should work -- and then give you a chance to clean the
threads of both the ring and the nose protector.

By the way, is there anything one can smear on the tapers to make
subsequent disassembly easier? Moly grease?


I always store the collet adaptor in the protector so I will
remember to put it on before installing the collet adaptor. :-)

I started doing this, but chickened out. I'll wait till I have read the
manual.

I doubt that the manual will say anything about it. If you got
a manual for the collet closer as well -- *that* might have more
information. There was no mention in my manual of the collet closer
(with the 2-1/4x8 spindle nose -- even though it was fitted from the
factory.

The nice lady at Clausing suggested that I call Royal for information on
the closer, and gave me their 800 number.

I did not find a model number on the closer, so I hope that the fact
that it is fitted to a 5914 suffices.


Agreed. And you can make a housing for the pot to mount just
below the switch, perhaps?

That was one thought. Or inside something, if there is space.

*No*! Almost anywhere inside the lathe is likely to have swarf
floating past -- and if it shorts across two of the terminals of the
pot, either your speed will go to zero, or to full -- and the pot may
get burned out as well. Mill up a housing for it and be sure to protect
the wire entry holes from chip entry -- grommets, or perhaps fill around
the wire entry with RTV.

I didn't fully explain, but the pot will be in a standard diecast box,
with the shielded wire held in a full-closure cable clamp (to protect
the wires mechanically. This setup is dust-proof, so swarf will not
enter.


I *think* that the supply terminals from the VFD are protected
against shorting -- but that may vary with brand.

The VFD will be up on the wall a few feet away, on a metal plate 5.5'
from the floor, and has a closed front.


Yes. My only worry is if abrupt reversal of direction through off will
cause a problem. I think it's OK to do this, because it's only a
command the the VFD, which can implement the command gracefully, without
sparks. But I'll be reading the VFD manual.

Remember -- the VFD has a programmable acceleration and
deceleration. Those values are used when the switch goes from forward
to reverse as well. (Which can make such switching a bit safer with a
threaded nose, as you are less likely to unscrew the chuck. :-) But
with your L-00 nose, there is no problem anyway.

I've read the manual for the old VFD, and it makes no warnings about
abrupt reversal of direction using the direction controls. I'll try
this on the mill, which uses this old VFD. I've done abrupt reversal by
mistake a few times already, and there was no drama. Given the
liklihood of such reversals in practice, I don't see how it could be any
other way.

Given the weight of the largest chuck -- probably a 4-jaw -- and
the torque needed to accelerate that (even without a load) -- you want
to set the acceleration time down far enough so it won't trip the
over-current under those conditions -- and then a bit more to allow for
the weight of a workpiece in the chuck. (Note that a 4-jaw at full
speed can be a scary object anyway -- and always have the jaws firmly
clamped on something so they don't back out and get launched across the
shop -- or into you.

OK. Normal default startup ramp is 10 seconds, if I recall. On the
mill, I shortened that to 3 seconds, and this has not caused breaker
tripping. This is with a 1 HP motor.

If I get serious about rapid stops, I can always add a braking resistor.

Joe Gwinn

In article ,
"DoN. Nichols" wrote:

On 2008-01-02, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
In article ,
"DoN. Nichols" wrote:

[ ... ]

That is correct. It comes as a blank with a new toolpost (at
least so with the new Phase-II toolpost, which is the only post which I
have had new.)

OK.

[ ... ]

Hmm ... the Phase-II has a metric thread which is quite similar
to your 5/8-18 -- probably a 16mm thread. And the plate comes
pre-tapped in the center of the plate -- but you do have to mill down
the plate to make it into a 'T'.

OK. If one buys a new Aloris, they will make the plate for you,
partially ofsetting the cost differential. With used, one will make
one's own plate.

O.K. I did not know that for sure. (And see later -- this does
not seem to be really the case.) They would either have to have
measurements from you for *your* T-slot (as they vary a lot), or know
the model of the lathe and know for sure that it is the original
compound. It *may* be pre-cut for the largest likely T-slot, and have to
be cut down some more for other sizes.

The Aloris website and catalog says that they will machine the plate for
you. MSC does not mention this, but some other distributors do.


Having cleaned and inspected the Dickson toolpost and holders that came
with the lathe, I'm losing interest. They are quite heavily used and in
some cases abused. Some of the setscrews are bulging and cracking near
the tips, and will need to be replaced with dog-point hex socket cap
screws. I had to drill the stub of one busted setscrew out.

As for the height -- that is handled by the nuts on the screws
on the tool holders -- so each is set to the proper height for its own
tool. I somehow doubt that you would need to block up the ToolMex or
Dickson on the Clausing compound.

None of these height adjustment pancake nuts came with the set, and the
posts onto which they thread are mostly in bad shape. The mangled
threaded posts can be replaced, but it will be an effort to get the old
ones out. They are very hard, and appear to be upsidedown hex-socket
setscrews.

I'll bet that they are set in with Locktite. If so -- heat the
holder while gently twisting the mangled screws with small vise-grips.
You don't need to (and shouldn't) apply much torque -- just a little.
When it gets hot enough, the wrench will turn easily, so you know when
to stop heating. Then just replace them with allthread or long
setscrews as appropriate.

Good point. I was going to use a torch on the studs anyway, to soften
things a bit, so the pliers can get a grip. And to break any rust, if
something that greasy can rust.


You ideally should have at least one height-adjusting nut to
copy. But if you don't, here are the things to bear in mind.

1) The flange goes between two flanges on the top of the cam
one continuous, and one (the upper) interrupted to allow the
tool holder to be lifted clear. The thickness of the flange on
the nuts which you make need to be just a little thinner than
the spacing between the two flanges.

2) The diameter of the flange needs to be enough to reach from the
stud almost to the bottom of the groove between flanges on the
locking cam.

3) The height of the stud on the holder should be high enough to
allow the height-adjusting nut to be screwed on enough to hold
with base of the holder level with the base of the toolpost, and
short enough to allow the nut to be screwed on enough to lift the
holder on the V-rails so its top is level with the top of the
post. The Height adjusting nut needs to be long enough to allow
some threads from the stud at the lowest position of the tool
holder, and some threads from the lock screw at the highest
position of the tool holder.

And the ones which I have use Metric threaded setscrews and
height post screws. (But they are too small to fit our Clausings
anyway). Check to make sure whether you have metric or imperial threads
on yours.

The threads are all imperial, 5/16-18 to be precise.

I will try to buy the correct hardware, especially the pancake nuts.


Yes. And I did get the 4-jaw chuck. What I didn't get is the slotted
faceplate. Drat!

Can also be done on the mill, using a piloted tap wrench. I may just
skip the holes for the 8mm locator pin until such time as a need
presents itself.

That seems reasonable. I do wish that mine for the
Compact-5/CNC had the pin -- because *there* it would make sense.

[ ... ]

I think I need an Aloris catalog, to know the options and their prices.

That will tell you the options -- but I don't think that you
will find prices. For that, I use my MSC catalog as the reference. (It
also has a pretty good listing for all of the options available.)

Yep. They do command a fine price, they do.

:-)

Which toolholders do you recommend I start with, by Aloris number, and
why. You mentioned a few, but without the numbers it's hard for me to
connect the dots.

O.K. MSC catalog time. Sigh -- I wonder which volume now that
they have split it in two. :-)

Hmm ... first off -- the notes accompanying a set of Aloris
toolpost and holders says:

"Tool post T-nut may require machining for your application"

so don't depend on Aloris doing it all for you. :-)

Well, don't depend on MSC to tell the whole story.



First - the ones which come in the sets:

1) Style 1 -- turning and facing. Get quite a few of these, since
you want to have one for each tool which you are likely to use
often, so they all can be set to the proper height -- or you
lose part of the quick-change feature.

2) Style 2 -- boring, turning and facing. The difference here is
that there is a V down the center of the bottom of the slot,
good for holding boring bars, but still usable for the other
tools as well.

3) Style 4 -- boring, heavy duty. This is what you use to hold
a 1" diameter boring bar which accepts HSS lathe bits. I've
used this both for boring and for internal Acme threading which
a home-ground HSS tool. But you are unlikely to need more than
one.

4) Style 7 -- Universal parting (cut-off). This, with a Mo-Max
cobalt steel T-profile parting tool is very nice to have.

5) Style 10 -- knurling, facing, and turning. Only if someone
*gives* it to you -- and only to use for facing not for
knurling. For knurling -- either a scissors style knurling tool
or the one which I will describe later.

Above -- replace the word "Style" with BXA-" to get the full
part number.

Now -- others which I find of interest.

6)* BXA-13 -- "new extension tool holder" -- good for threading
without hitting the tailstock live center. (I would like to
have a couple more of these, but I do have *one* -- bought new.

7) BXA-5 and BXA-53 -- Morse taper holders -- useful for drilling
with carriage power feed. In the BXA size, the 5 is MT-2, and
the 53 is MT-3 -- both useful -- though with only one, go for
the 53, and get an adaptor sleeve from MT-2 to MT-3.

8)* BXA-6 -- multiple tool holder. A grid of setscrews to hold
more than one tool at a time -- groove and bevel or part at the
same time for production work -- usually best with a turret
handling other tasks.

9) BXA-19 -- the fancy knurling tool which I mentioned above and
earlier. $286 in the MSC catalog at present -- perhaps more
when you call in, because prices keep going up.

10)* BXA-16N or BXA-16. The double-ended insert holder. The 'N' is
for negative rake tools -- which with the right chipbreaker
groove still cut as positive -- but which have six cutting
points instead of three for the triangular inserts.

The ones marked with a '*' after the ')' are the only ones which
I bought new -- because I needed them, and I could never find a
reasonable enough price in eBay auctions -- only perhaps $10.00 less
than new price.

There are other interesting ones -- but these are the ones I
have, either genuine Aloris bought new (the ones marked with '*', or
Phase-II or used Aloris for the others.

Thanks for this list. I'll be thinking this over.

Joe Gwinn

On 2008-01-03, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
In article ,
"DoN. Nichols" wrote:

On 2008-01-02, Joseph Gwinn wrote:

[ ... ]

O.K. I did not know that for sure. (And see later -- this does
not seem to be really the case.) They would either have to have
measurements from you for *your* T-slot (as they vary a lot), or know
the model of the lathe and know for sure that it is the original
compound. It *may* be pre-cut for the largest likely T-slot, and have to
be cut down some more for other sizes.

The Aloris website and catalog says that they will machine the plate for
you. MSC does not mention this, but some other distributors do.

O.K. I think that it is more trouble than it is worth for MSC,
just as they don't list the option of getting the toolmaker's hammer
engraved with the user's name -- which you can order through other
vendors, and Starrett does the engraving.

But most people who order a *new* Aloris toolpost also have a
milling macine available, so they can prepare the T-nut locally more
quickly than the communications and extra shipping to have Aloris do it.
Even if I were to buy a brand new Aloris toolpost, I think that I would
machine it in house instead of jumping through the extra hoops to have
Aloris do it for me. :-)

[ ... ]

You ideally should have at least one height-adjusting nut to
copy. But if you don't, here are the things to bear in mind.

1) The flange goes between two flanges on the top of the cam
one continuous, and one (the upper) interrupted to allow the
tool holder to be lifted clear. The thickness of the flange on
the nuts which you make need to be just a little thinner than
the spacing between the two flanges.

2) The diameter of the flange needs to be enough to reach from the
stud almost to the bottom of the groove between flanges on the
locking cam.

3) The height of the stud on the holder should be high enough to
allow the height-adjusting nut to be screwed on enough to hold
with base of the holder level with the base of the toolpost, and
short enough to allow the nut to be screwed on enough to lift the
holder on the V-rails so its top is level with the top of the
post. The Height adjusting nut needs to be long enough to allow
some threads from the stud at the lowest position of the tool
holder, and some threads from the lock screw at the highest
position of the tool holder.

And the ones which I have use Metric threaded setscrews and
height post screws. (But they are too small to fit our Clausings
anyway). Check to make sure whether you have metric or imperial threads
on yours.

The threads are all imperial, 5/16-18 to be precise.

I will try to buy the correct hardware, especially the pancake nuts.

Hmm ... "pancake nut" sounds like what Aloris uses. And the
difference between the Aloris and the Phase-II is that Aloris uses a
keyed lockwasher which engages a keyway on the stud, while Phase-II uses
only a plain inner star lockwasher, increasing the chance that the
setting will shift as you tighten the locknut.

I'll attempt to do an ASCII drawing of the Dickson/Emco/ToolMex
nut. As usual, view with a fixed pitch font like Courier to avoid the
distortion which comes from a proportional pitch font.

+-------+ +-------+
||||||||||||||||||||||| ---- Knurled grip
|||||||||||||||||||||||
+---+ Z Z +---+
| Z Z |
| Z Z | ---------- Waist
| Z Z |
| Z Z |
| Z Z | (the 'Z's are the internal thread for
| Z Z | height adjustment)
| Z Z |
| Z Z |
| Z Z |
| Z Z |
+------+ Z Z +------+ -- Flange
+----------+ +----------+

For the Dickson style -- the Aloris pancake nuts won't work.

[ ... ]

I think I need an Aloris catalog, to know the options and their prices.

That will tell you the options -- but I don't think that you
will find prices. For that, I use my MSC catalog as the reference. (It
also has a pretty good listing for all of the options available.)

Yep. They do command a fine price, they do.

:-)

Which toolholders do you recommend I start with, by Aloris number, and
why. You mentioned a few, but without the numbers it's hard for me to
connect the dots.

O.K. MSC catalog time. Sigh -- I wonder which volume now that
they have split it in two. :-)

Hmm ... first off -- the notes accompanying a set of Aloris
toolpost and holders says:

"Tool post T-nut may require machining for your application"

so don't depend on Aloris doing it all for you. :-)

Well, don't depend on MSC to tell the whole story.

O.K. But as I said above -- I would probably do the machining
at home anyway -- and I think that MSC expects that for most purchasers.

First - the ones which come in the sets:

[ ... ]

6)* BXA-13 -- "new extension tool holder" -- good for threading
without hitting the tailstock live center. (I would like to
have a couple more of these, but I do have *one* -- bought new.

10)* BXA-16N or BXA-16. The double-ended insert holder. The 'N' is
for negative rake tools -- which with the right chipbreaker
groove still cut as positive -- but which have six cutting
points instead of three for the triangular inserts.

The ones marked with a '*' after the ')' are the only ones which
I bought new -- because I needed them, and I could never find a
reasonable enough price in eBay auctions -- only perhaps $10.00 less
than new price.

There are other interesting ones -- but these are the ones I
have, either genuine Aloris bought new (the ones marked with '*', or
Phase-II or used Aloris for the others.

Thanks for this list. I'll be thinking this over.

The two above are what I would look for as the first additions
to what comes in the "set". Of course -- if you aren't planning to use
insert tooling, the BXA-16 or BXA-16N would not make sense for you. But
you did ask what *I* would buy and why, so I tried to answer that. And
since you have a lathe of similar manufacture and size to mine, I think
that it is not too bad a selection. The multi-tool holder makes more
sense if you have a bed turret for your machine (as I do), and plan to
occasionally go into small "production" mode. :-)

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On 2008-01-03, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
In article ,
"DoN. Nichols" wrote:

On 2008-01-02, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
In article ,
"DoN. Nichols" wrote:

[ ... ]

If you have the collet adaptor in the spindle, and the locking
ring around the spindle is not rattling loose, then it must be drawn up
on a nose protector. To eject the adaptor:

1) Remove any collet from the adaptor.

2) Start turning the ring to unscrew it from the protector. It
will start a bit tight (especially with your spooge), then get
loose, then as it move far enough to touch the flange of the
adaptor, will get tight again until you move it far enough so
the collet adaptor pops loose. (Keep a hand ready to catch it,
it may jump quite a ways, given how long it probably has been in
place.)

I'll try this.

It should work -- and then give you a chance to clean the
threads of both the ring and the nose protector.

By the way, is there anything one can smear on the tapers to make
subsequent disassembly easier? Moly grease?

You don't *want* grease on them. The male nose taper for the
L-00 is a self-releasing taper, and the threaded ring will apply
whatever force (if any) is needed to pop a chuck loose. And any grease
on the collet adaptor taper increases the chance that it will introduce
eccentricity -- runout. However, a bit of grease (perhaps Lithium
grease like Lubriplate) in the threads of the ring and the chuck or nose
protector may be helpful. But I think that once you get the ring and
nose protector off for the first time, and then clean up the spooge, you
should not feel the need for any on the chuck taper. And you *really*
want the collet taper to grip firmly, not to slip out easily. Remember
-- all tension is removed from it whenever you loosen the collet's grip
on the workpiece.

Also -- any grease in there will be likely to hold some swarf
which will then dent either the collet adaptor or the inside taper of
the spindle -- or both -- introducing some more runout.

I always store the collet adaptor in the protector so I will
remember to put it on before installing the collet adaptor. :-)

I started doing this, but chickened out. I'll wait till I have read the
manual.

I doubt that the manual will say anything about it. If you got
a manual for the collet closer as well -- *that* might have more
information. There was no mention in my manual of the collet closer
(with the 2-1/4x8 spindle nose -- even though it was fitted from the
factory.

The nice lady at Clausing suggested that I call Royal for information on
the closer, and gave me their 800 number.

O.K. That may get you the information you need. (But really, I
think that you *have* all that you need for removing the collet adaptor.

I did not find a model number on the closer, so I hope that the fact
that it is fitted to a 5914 suffices.

I think that they will differ only in overall length. There is
no visible model number on mine, either. I'm presuming that you have a
lever style closer.

One thing which you may need to know if there is a collet in the
closer right now. Somewhere around the large diameter hub of the closer
at the far end of the headstock there is a piece of steel perhaps 1/8:
thick visible edge on, with a relieved area near one end. Press down on
that to disengage the other end from a set of notches in a flange on the
end of the spindle, and this will allow you to loosen (or tighten) the
drawbar on the collet. Rotate the top away from you to unscrew the
collet, and use the lever to kick the collet out far enough for you to
grip and remove it. Once this is done, you can use the spanner wrench
to loosen the ring and pop the collet adaptor out of the spindle.

Agreed. And you can make a housing for the pot to mount just
below the switch, perhaps?

That was one thought. Or inside something, if there is space.

*No*! Almost anywhere inside the lathe is likely to have swarf
floating past -- and if it shorts across two of the terminals of the
pot, either your speed will go to zero, or to full -- and the pot may
get burned out as well. Mill up a housing for it and be sure to protect
the wire entry holes from chip entry -- grommets, or perhaps fill around
the wire entry with RTV.

I didn't fully explain, but the pot will be in a standard diecast box,
with the shielded wire held in a full-closure cable clamp (to protect
the wires mechanically. This setup is dust-proof, so swarf will not
enter.

Good enough.

I *think* that the supply terminals from the VFD are protected
against shorting -- but that may vary with brand.

The VFD will be up on the wall a few feet away, on a metal plate 5.5'
from the floor, and has a closed front.

But the terminals are remoted away from that to your switch and
pot -- and it was the power feed to the pot (CCW and CW ends) which I
was worried about.

[ ... ]

Given the weight of the largest chuck -- probably a 4-jaw -- and
the torque needed to accelerate that (even without a load) -- you want
to set the acceleration time down far enough so it won't trip the
over-current under those conditions -- and then a bit more to allow for
the weight of a workpiece in the chuck. (Note that a 4-jaw at full
speed can be a scary object anyway -- and always have the jaws firmly
clamped on something so they don't back out and get launched across the
shop -- or into you.

OK. Normal default startup ramp is 10 seconds, if I recall. On the
mill, I shortened that to 3 seconds, and this has not caused breaker
tripping. This is with a 1 HP motor.

O.K. Ten seconds should be plenty. You can consider turning it
to shorter times when doing tapping with stock in a collet and using a
releasing tapping head in a turret. That is where you want to be able
to reverse the spindle fairly quickly (certainly a lot more quickly than
if you are stuck with a single-phase cap start motor, where you have to
wait for it to slow almost all the way down before switching it into
reverse so you can back out the tap. The tapping head releases, so you
don't have to stop too quickly -- but you lose time per part reversing
to back the tap out.

If I get serious about rapid stops, I can always add a braking resistor.

Indeed. Note that with the extra radius and mass of a big
chuck, you will need more braking time -- or a serious braking
resistor -- to handle reversing -- or even just starting at a high speed
setting. And note that you are not supposed to change the vari-speed
pulley settings unless the motor and spindle are rotating.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

DoN. Nichols wrote:
On 2008-01-03, Joseph Gwinn wrote:

In article ,
"DoN. Nichols" wrote:


On 2008-01-02, Joseph Gwinn wrote:


[ ... ]


O.K. I did not know that for sure. (And see later -- this does
not seem to be really the case.) They would either have to have
measurements from you for *your* T-slot (as they vary a lot), or know
the model of the lathe and know for sure that it is the original
compound. It *may* be pre-cut for the largest likely T-slot, and have to
be cut down some more for other sizes.

The Aloris website and catalog says that they will machine the plate for
you. MSC does not mention this, but some other distributors do.


O.K. I think that it is more trouble than it is worth for MSC,
just as they don't list the option of getting the toolmaker's hammer
engraved with the user's name -- which you can order through other
vendors, and Starrett does the engraving.

But most people who order a *new* Aloris toolpost also have a
milling macine available, so they can prepare the T-nut locally more
quickly than the communications and extra shipping to have Aloris do it.
Even if I were to buy a brand new Aloris toolpost, I think that I would
machine it in house instead of jumping through the extra hoops to have
Aloris do it for me. :-)

[ ... ]


You ideally should have at least one height-adjusting nut to
copy. But if you don't, here are the things to bear in mind.

1) The flange goes between two flanges on the top of the cam
one continuous, and one (the upper) interrupted to allow the
tool holder to be lifted clear. The thickness of the flange on
the nuts which you make need to be just a little thinner than
the spacing between the two flanges.

2) The diameter of the flange needs to be enough to reach from the
stud almost to the bottom of the groove between flanges on the
locking cam.

3) The height of the stud on the holder should be high enough to
allow the height-adjusting nut to be screwed on enough to hold
with base of the holder level with the base of the toolpost, and
short enough to allow the nut to be screwed on enough to lift the
holder on the V-rails so its top is level with the top of the
post. The Height adjusting nut needs to be long enough to allow
some threads from the stud at the lowest position of the tool
holder, and some threads from the lock screw at the highest
position of the tool holder.

And the ones which I have use Metric threaded setscrews and
height post screws. (But they are too small to fit our Clausings
anyway). Check to make sure whether you have metric or imperial threads
on yours.

The threads are all imperial, 5/16-18 to be precise.

I will try to buy the correct hardware, especially the pancake nuts.


Hmm ... "pancake nut" sounds like what Aloris uses. And the
difference between the Aloris and the Phase-II is that Aloris uses a
keyed lockwasher which engages a keyway on the stud, while Phase-II uses
only a plain inner star lockwasher, increasing the chance that the
setting will shift as you tighten the locknut.

I'll attempt to do an ASCII drawing of the Dickson/Emco/ToolMex
nut. As usual, view with a fixed pitch font like Courier to avoid the
distortion which comes from a proportional pitch font.

+-------+ +-------+
||||||||||||||||||||||| ---- Knurled grip
|||||||||||||||||||||||
+---+ Z Z +---+
| Z Z |
| Z Z | ---------- Waist
| Z Z |
| Z Z |
| Z Z | (the 'Z's are the internal thread for
| Z Z | height adjustment)
| Z Z |
| Z Z |
| Z Z |
| Z Z |
+------+ Z Z +------+ -- Flange
+----------+ +----------+

For the Dickson style -- the Aloris pancake nuts won't work.

[ ... ]


Nice ASCII art. All of the Dickson and Toolmex holders I have, have this
nut fitted with a square head set screw to allow the nut to be locked by
doing the set screw up against the top of the stud the nut is fitted on.

I think I need an Aloris catalog, to know the options and their prices.

That will tell you the options -- but I don't think that you
will find prices. For that, I use my MSC catalog as the reference. (It
also has a pretty good listing for all of the options available.)

Yep. They do command a fine price, they do.

:-)


Which toolholders do you recommend I start with, by Aloris number, and
why. You mentioned a few, but without the numbers it's hard for me to
connect the dots.

O.K. MSC catalog time. Sigh -- I wonder which volume now that
they have split it in two. :-)

Hmm ... first off -- the notes accompanying a set of Aloris
toolpost and holders says:

"Tool post T-nut may require machining for your application"

so don't depend on Aloris doing it all for you. :-)

Well, don't depend on MSC to tell the whole story.


O.K. But as I said above -- I would probably do the machining
at home anyway -- and I think that MSC expects that for most purchasers.


First - the ones which come in the sets:


[ ... ]


6)* BXA-13 -- "new extension tool holder" -- good for threading
without hitting the tailstock live center. (I would like to
have a couple more of these, but I do have *one* -- bought new.



10)* BXA-16N or BXA-16. The double-ended insert holder. The 'N' is
for negative rake tools -- which with the right chipbreaker
groove still cut as positive -- but which have six cutting
points instead of three for the triangular inserts.

The ones marked with a '*' after the ')' are the only ones which
I bought new -- because I needed them, and I could never find a
reasonable enough price in eBay auctions -- only perhaps $10.00 less
than new price.

There are other interesting ones -- but these are the ones I
have, either genuine Aloris bought new (the ones marked with '*', or
Phase-II or used Aloris for the others.

Thanks for this list. I'll be thinking this over.


The two above are what I would look for as the first additions
to what comes in the "set". Of course -- if you aren't planning to use
insert tooling, the BXA-16 or BXA-16N would not make sense for you. But
you did ask what *I* would buy and why, so I tried to answer that. And
since you have a lathe of similar manufacture and size to mine, I think
that it is not too bad a selection. The multi-tool holder makes more
sense if you have a bed turret for your machine (as I do), and plan to
occasionally go into small "production" mode. :-)

Enjoy,
DoN.

In article ,
"DoN. Nichols" wrote:

On 2008-01-03, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
In article ,
"DoN. Nichols" wrote:

On 2008-01-02, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
In article ,
"DoN. Nichols" wrote:

[ ... ]

If you have the collet adaptor in the spindle, and the locking
ring around the spindle is not rattling loose, then it must be drawn
up
on a nose protector. To eject the adaptor:

1) Remove any collet from the adaptor.

2) Start turning the ring to unscrew it from the protector. It
will start a bit tight (especially with your spooge), then get
loose, then as it move far enough to touch the flange of the
adaptor, will get tight again until you move it far enough so
the collet adaptor pops loose. (Keep a hand ready to catch it,
it may jump quite a ways, given how long it probably has been in
place.)

I'll try this.

It should work -- and then give you a chance to clean the
threads of both the ring and the nose protector.

By the way, is there anything one can smear on the tapers to make
subsequent disassembly easier? Moly grease?

You don't *want* grease on them. The male nose taper for the
L-00 is a self-releasing taper, and the threaded ring will apply
whatever force (if any) is needed to pop a chuck loose. And any grease
on the collet adaptor taper increases the chance that it will introduce
eccentricity -- runout. However, a bit of grease (perhaps Lithium
grease like Lubriplate) in the threads of the ring and the chuck or nose
protector may be helpful. But I think that once you get the ring and
nose protector off for the first time, and then clean up the spooge, you
should not feel the need for any on the chuck taper. And you *really*
want the collet taper to grip firmly, not to slip out easily. Remember
-- all tension is removed from it whenever you loosen the collet's grip
on the workpiece.

Also -- any grease in there will be likely to hold some swarf
which will then dent either the collet adaptor or the inside taper of
the spindle -- or both -- introducing some more runout.

I'm assuming that one will always wipe the mating surfaces clean before
attempting assembly, as getting swarf into things is *always* a
possibility, even in the absence of an intentional layer of grease.
Once clamped together, subsequent swarf is mechanically excluded.

The clamping pressure in the taper is more than enough to displace a
layer of thing grease. Or anhydrous lanolin.


I always store the collet adaptor in the protector so I will
remember to put it on before installing the collet adaptor. :-)

I started doing this, but chickened out. I'll wait till I have read the
manual.

I doubt that the manual will say anything about it. If you got
a manual for the collet closer as well -- *that* might have more
information. There was no mention in my manual of the collet closer
(with the 2-1/4x8 spindle nose -- even though it was fitted from the
factory.

The nice lady at Clausing suggested that I call Royal for information on
the closer, and gave me their 800 number.

O.K. That may get you the information you need. (But really, I
think that you *have* all that you need for removing the collet adaptor.

I did not find a model number on the closer, so I hope that the fact
that it is fitted to a 5914 suffices.

I think that they will differ only in overall length. There is
no visible model number on mine, either. I'm presuming that you have a
lever style closer.

I talked to Royal Products yesterday. They had no problem identifying
the specific lever closer used; all that differs is the length of the
drawtube. They prefer to pull the drawtube assembly and use a
broomstick of brass rod to tap the collet holder out of the taper from
behind. While the engineer allowed that many people use the nosepiece
to pop the collet holder out, pushing a hardened steel holder out with
an aluminum nosepiece wears the expensive nosepiece out fairly quickly,
and is not recommended.

When I asked what the nosepiece was for, he laughed and said it was
largely to keep the now jobless clamping ring from jingling as the
machine runs, and also keeps swarf out.


One thing which you may need to know if there is a collet in the
closer right now. Somewhere around the large diameter hub of the closer
at the far end of the headstock there is a piece of steel perhaps 1/8:
thick visible edge on, with a relieved area near one end. Press down on
that to disengage the other end from a set of notches in a flange on the
end of the spindle, and this will allow you to loosen (or tighten) the
drawbar on the collet. Rotate the top away from you to unscrew the
collet, and use the lever to kick the collet out far enough for you to
grip and remove it. Once this is done, you can use the spanner wrench
to loosen the ring and pop the collet adaptor out of the spindle.

Yes, I found all this, by fiddling.

I also have pdfs of the drawings, free from Royal.


Agreed. And you can make a housing for the pot to mount just
below the switch, perhaps?

That was one thought. Or inside something, if there is space.

*No*! Almost anywhere inside the lathe is likely to have swarf
floating past -- and if it shorts across two of the terminals of the
pot, either your speed will go to zero, or to full -- and the pot may
get burned out as well. Mill up a housing for it and be sure to protect
the wire entry holes from chip entry -- grommets, or perhaps fill around
the wire entry with RTV.

I didn't fully explain, but the pot will be in a standard diecast box,
with the shielded wire held in a full-closure cable clamp (to protect
the wires mechanically. This setup is dust-proof, so swarf will not
enter.

Good enough.

I *think* that the supply terminals from the VFD are protected
against shorting -- but that may vary with brand.

The VFD will be up on the wall a few feet away, on a metal plate 5.5'
from the floor, and has a closed front.

But the terminals are remoted away from that to your switch and
pot -- and it was the power feed to the pot (CCW and CW ends) which I
was worried about.

[ ... ]

Given the weight of the largest chuck -- probably a 4-jaw -- and
the torque needed to accelerate that (even without a load) -- you want
to set the acceleration time down far enough so it won't trip the
over-current under those conditions -- and then a bit more to allow for
the weight of a workpiece in the chuck. (Note that a 4-jaw at full
speed can be a scary object anyway -- and always have the jaws firmly
clamped on something so they don't back out and get launched across the
shop -- or into you.

OK. Normal default startup ramp is 10 seconds, if I recall. On the
mill, I shortened that to 3 seconds, and this has not caused breaker
tripping. This is with a 1 HP motor.

O.K. Ten seconds should be plenty. You can consider turning it
to shorter times when doing tapping with stock in a collet and using a
releasing tapping head in a turret. That is where you want to be able
to reverse the spindle fairly quickly (certainly a lot more quickly than
if you are stuck with a single-phase cap start motor, where you have to
wait for it to slow almost all the way down before switching it into
reverse so you can back out the tap. The tapping head releases, so you
don't have to stop too quickly -- but you lose time per part reversing
to back the tap out.

If I get serious about rapid stops, I can always add a braking resistor.

Indeed. Note that with the extra radius and mass of a big
chuck, you will need more braking time -- or a serious braking
resistor -- to handle reversing -- or even just starting at a high speed
setting.

Yes. I'll see how it goes. I can always add a braking resistor, but I
will be sure to leave space for such.


And note that you are not supposed to change the vari-speed
pulley settings unless the motor and spindle are rotating.

Yes. Also says so on the Vari-Speed control on the lathe.


Joe Gwinn

In article ,
"DoN. Nichols" wrote:

On 2008-01-03, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
In article ,
"DoN. Nichols" wrote:

On 2008-01-02, Joseph Gwinn wrote:

[ ... ]

O.K. I did not know that for sure. (And see later -- this does
not seem to be really the case.) They would either have to have
measurements from you for *your* T-slot (as they vary a lot), or know
the model of the lathe and know for sure that it is the original
compound. It *may* be pre-cut for the largest likely T-slot, and have to
be cut down some more for other sizes.

The Aloris website and catalog says that they will machine the plate for
you. MSC does not mention this, but some other distributors do.

O.K. I think that it is more trouble than it is worth for MSC,
just as they don't list the option of getting the toolmaker's hammer
engraved with the user's name -- which you can order through other
vendors, and Starrett does the engraving.

But most people who order a *new* Aloris toolpost also have a
milling macine available, so they can prepare the T-nut locally more
quickly than the communications and extra shipping to have Aloris do it.
Even if I were to buy a brand new Aloris toolpost, I think that I would
machine it in house instead of jumping through the extra hoops to have
Aloris do it for me. :-)

I have a mill too. I don't know which approach is more trouble. Turns
out that MSC gives you one more holder in the starter kit than Aloris,
and skips the machining, so the machining costs one holder, call it $75
to $100.

By the way, what is the diameter and thread of the hole in the Aloris
T-nut? 5/8-18? (It might be cheaper to get an extra Aloris T-nut than
to buy the 5/8-18 tap needed to make a new T-Nut for the Dickson.)


[ ... ]

You ideally should have at least one height-adjusting nut to
copy. But if you don't, here are the things to bear in mind.

1) The flange goes between two flanges on the top of the cam
one continuous, and one (the upper) interrupted to allow the
tool holder to be lifted clear. The thickness of the flange on
the nuts which you make need to be just a little thinner than
the spacing between the two flanges.

2) The diameter of the flange needs to be enough to reach from the
stud almost to the bottom of the groove between flanges on the
locking cam.

3) The height of the stud on the holder should be high enough to
allow the height-adjusting nut to be screwed on enough to hold
with base of the holder level with the base of the toolpost, and
short enough to allow the nut to be screwed on enough to lift the
holder on the V-rails so its top is level with the top of the
post. The Height adjusting nut needs to be long enough to allow
some threads from the stud at the lowest position of the tool
holder, and some threads from the lock screw at the highest
position of the tool holder.

And the ones which I have use Metric threaded setscrews and
height post screws. (But they are too small to fit our Clausings
anyway). Check to make sure whether you have metric or imperial threads
on yours.

The threads are all imperial, 5/16-18 to be precise.

I will try to buy the correct hardware, especially the pancake nuts.

Hmm ... "pancake nut" sounds like what Aloris uses. And the
difference between the Aloris and the Phase-II is that Aloris uses a
keyed lockwasher which engages a keyway on the stud, while Phase-II uses
only a plain inner star lockwasher, increasing the chance that the
setting will shift as you tighten the locknut.

I'll attempt to do an ASCII drawing of the Dickson/Emco/ToolMex
nut. As usual, view with a fixed pitch font like Courier to avoid the
distortion which comes from a proportional pitch font.

+-------+ +-------+
||||||||||||||||||||||| ---- Knurled grip
|||||||||||||||||||||||
+---+ Z Z +---+
| Z Z |
| Z Z | ---------- Waist
| Z Z |
| Z Z |
| Z Z | (the 'Z's are the internal thread for
| Z Z | height adjustment)
| Z Z |
| Z Z |
| Z Z |
| Z Z |
+------+ Z Z +------+ -- Flange
+----------+ +----------+

For the Dickson style -- the Aloris pancake nuts won't work.

I will try to buy real Dickson pancake nuts, when I figure out who in
the US carries them. Or ships to the US under reasonable terms.


[ ... ]

I think I need an Aloris catalog, to know the options and their
prices.

That will tell you the options -- but I don't think that you
will find prices. For that, I use my MSC catalog as the reference.
(It
also has a pretty good listing for all of the options available.)

Yep. They do command a fine price, they do.

:-)

Which toolholders do you recommend I start with, by Aloris number, and
why? You mentioned a few, but without the numbers it's hard for me to
connect the dots.

O.K. MSC catalog time. Sigh -- I wonder which volume now that
they have split it in two. :-)

Hmm ... first off -- the notes accompanying a set of Aloris
toolpost and holders says:

"Tool post T-nut may require machining for your application"

so don't depend on Aloris doing it all for you. :-)

Well, don't depend on MSC to tell the whole story.

O.K. But as I said above -- I would probably do the machining
at home anyway -- and I think that MSC expects that for most purchasers.

First - the ones which come in the sets:

[ ... ]

6)* BXA-13 -- "new extension tool holder" -- good for threading
without hitting the tailstock live center. (I would like to
have a couple more of these, but I do have *one* -- bought new.

10)* BXA-16N or BXA-16. The double-ended insert holder. The 'N' is
for negative rake tools -- which with the right chipbreaker
groove still cut as positive -- but which have six cutting
points instead of three for the triangular inserts.

The ones marked with a '*' after the ')' are the only ones which
I bought new -- because I needed them, and I could never find a
reasonable enough price in eBay auctions -- only perhaps $10.00 less
than new price.

There are other interesting ones -- but these are the ones I
have, either genuine Aloris bought new (the ones marked with '*', or
Phase-II or used Aloris for the others.

Thanks for this list. I'll be thinking this over.

The two above are what I would look for as the first additions
to what comes in the "set". Of course -- if you aren't planning to use
insert tooling, the BXA-16 or BXA-16N would not make sense for you. But
you did ask what *I* would buy and why, so I tried to answer that. And
since you have a lathe of similar manufacture and size to mine, I think
that it is not too bad a selection. The multi-tool holder makes more
sense if you have a bed turret for your machine (as I do), and plan to
occasionally go into small "production" mode. :-)

No apology needed. I asked your personal opinion, based on your
experience with actual use (versus my catalog-reading). I also note
that there is considerable agreement between your list and the various
starter kits on offer as to the four or five most necessary holders.
This is exactly the kind of information I need.


Joe Gwinn

Hey Joe

I just converted my 5904 Clausing to a VFD, how I did it is just one of
several ways so use or ignore whatever you want.

I stripped all the motor and motor mount brackets, the counter shaft
with the clutch/brake, and the speed control on the top of the headstock
off the machine, as well as the original electrics (except the drum
reverser switch). A new motor mount bracket was fabricated to position
the motor at the old counter shaft location using the mounting studs for
the counter shaft assembly.

The VFD I acquired came in a nice enclosure and was then mounted on the
back of the base cabinet, where the original junction box/disconnect
was. I wired the original drum switch (controlled by the
forward/off/reverse lever on the front) to the VFD's forward and reverse
inputs. I purchased a die cast project box and an appropriate pot (from
Fry's Electronics) for speed control and mounted them on the cast boss
where the original hydraulic speed adjuster was. I also replaced the
original 2 hp 1740 rpm motor with a 3 hp 3450 rpm motor driving the
spindle with the original size cogged belt, the motor pulley is now half
the size of the spindle pulley. The VFD high and low frequencies were
programed to approximate the speed range obtained with the original
hydraulic speed control. Accel/decel times were originally set to 2
seconds but the decel time was reset to 5 seconds to avoid overcurrent
trips caused by the inertia of the spindle and chuck. A braking
resistor will allow the preferred 2 seconds, I'm scrounging one at this
time.

So far the conversion is a big plus, much less vibration and noise as
compared to the mechanical drive. I used to have finish problems when
turning aluminum that I could never track down and I always suspected
the mechanical drive to be the issue even though it was in good
mechanical order. I now get beautiful finishes on aluminum and
attribute this to the elimination of the stiff variable pulley belt, I
think the cogs or slots in the belt were the cause of the finish issues.
The spindle can be 'plugged' from forward to reverse with no issues,
other than the too long decel time, I recently had to turn a thread to a
shoulder and found it much easier than before due to the better controls.

I have some pictures of the project and will figure out how to post some
to the dropbox eventually.

I have some opinions on tool posts for this machine if you want to hear
them also.

Have fun with the new machine!

Regards
Paul

--
-----------------------------------------
It's a Linux world....well, it oughta be.
-----------------------------------------

On Fri, 04 Jan 2008 11:24:05 -0600, Paul wrote:

Hey Joe

I just converted my 5904 Clausing to a VFD, how I did it is just one of
several ways so use or ignore whatever you want.

I stripped all the motor and motor mount brackets, the counter shaft
with the clutch/brake, and the speed control on the top of the headstock
off the machine, as well as the original electrics (except the drum
reverser switch). A new motor mount bracket was fabricated to position
the motor at the old counter shaft location using the mounting studs for
the counter shaft assembly.

The VFD I acquired came in a nice enclosure and was then mounted on the
back of the base cabinet, where the original junction box/disconnect
was. I wired the original drum switch (controlled by the
forward/off/reverse lever on the front) to the VFD's forward and reverse
inputs. I purchased a die cast project box and an appropriate pot (from
Fry's Electronics) for speed control and mounted them on the cast boss
where the original hydraulic speed adjuster was. I also replaced the
original 2 hp 1740 rpm motor with a 3 hp 3450 rpm motor driving the
spindle with the original size cogged belt, the motor pulley is now half
the size of the spindle pulley. The VFD high and low frequencies were
programed to approximate the speed range obtained with the original
hydraulic speed control. Accel/decel times were originally set to 2
seconds but the decel time was reset to 5 seconds to avoid overcurrent
trips caused by the inertia of the spindle and chuck. A braking
resistor will allow the preferred 2 seconds, I'm scrounging one at this
time.

So far the conversion is a big plus, much less vibration and noise as
compared to the mechanical drive. I used to have finish problems when
turning aluminum that I could never track down and I always suspected
the mechanical drive to be the issue even though it was in good
mechanical order. I now get beautiful finishes on aluminum and
attribute this to the elimination of the stiff variable pulley belt, I
think the cogs or slots in the belt were the cause of the finish issues.
The spindle can be 'plugged' from forward to reverse with no issues,
other than the too long decel time, I recently had to turn a thread to a
shoulder and found it much easier than before due to the better controls.

I have some pictures of the project and will figure out how to post some
to the dropbox eventually.

I have some opinions on tool posts for this machine if you want to hear
them also.

Have fun with the new machine!

Regards
Paul


Well done Sir.

Ill be waiting for the pictures

Gunner

On Fri, 04 Jan 2008 10:13:33 -0500, Joseph Gwinn
wrote:


Also -- any grease in there will be likely to hold some swarf
which will then dent either the collet adaptor or the inside taper of
the spindle -- or both -- introducing some more runout.

I'm assuming that one will always wipe the mating surfaces clean before
attempting assembly,

But NEVER clean the head stock taper with your finger while the lathe
is running, don't worry, even I wouldn't do that!
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada

On 2008-01-04, David Billington wrote:
DoN. Nichols wrote:

[ ... ]

Hmm ... "pancake nut" sounds like what Aloris uses. And the
difference between the Aloris and the Phase-II is that Aloris uses a
keyed lockwasher which engages a keyway on the stud, while Phase-II uses
only a plain inner star lockwasher, increasing the chance that the
setting will shift as you tighten the locknut.

I'll attempt to do an ASCII drawing of the Dickson/Emco/ToolMex
nut. As usual, view with a fixed pitch font like Courier to avoid the
distortion which comes from a proportional pitch font.

+-------+ +-------+
||||||||||||||||||||||| ---- Knurled grip
|||||||||||||||||||||||
+---+ Z Z +---+
| Z Z |
| Z Z | ---------- Waist
| Z Z |
| Z Z |
| Z Z | (the 'Z's are the internal thread for
| Z Z | height adjustment)
| Z Z |
| Z Z |
| Z Z |
| Z Z |
+------+ Z Z +------+ -- Flange
+----------+ +----------+

For the Dickson style -- the Aloris pancake nuts won't work.

[ ... ]


Nice ASCII art.

Thanks.

All of the Dickson and Toolmex holders I have, have this
nut fitted with a square head set screw to allow the nut to be locked by
doing the set screw up against the top of the stud the nut is fitted on.

My Emco ones are similar -- except that the setscrew is an Allen
head cap screw -- just as are the screws which clamp the tools into the
holders. I suspect that square head ones just aren't made that small.
(4mm IIRC).

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On 2008-01-04, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
In article ,
"DoN. Nichols" wrote:

On 2008-01-03, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
In article ,
"DoN. Nichols" wrote:

On 2008-01-02, Joseph Gwinn wrote:

But most people who order a *new* Aloris toolpost also have a
milling machine available, so they can prepare the T-nut locally more
quickly than the communications and extra shipping to have Aloris do it.
Even if I were to buy a brand new Aloris toolpost, I think that I would
machine it in house instead of jumping through the extra hoops to have
Aloris do it for me. :-)

I have a mill too. I don't know which approach is more trouble. Turns
out that MSC gives you one more holder in the starter kit than Aloris,
and skips the machining, so the machining costs one holder, call it $75
to $100.

O.K.

By the way, what is the diameter and thread of the hole in the Aloris
T-nut? 5/8-18? (It might be cheaper to get an extra Aloris T-nut than
to buy the 5/8-18 tap needed to make a new T-Nut for the Dickson.)

I honestly don't know. While I have several Aloris tool holders
(some bought new) and the fancy Knurling tool -- I only have a Phase-II
toolpost -- which has a metric thread. But that is pretty close to a
5/8" -- probably 1 16mm, so I would expect 5/8-18 for the Aloris.

But as for "cheaper" -- MSC currently has 5/8 HSS gun taps on
sale in the lastest flyer for as little as ... hmm ... no 5/8" taps in
the flyer except a long-reach (extension) one by OSG which is 5/8-11 and
$41.79. The nearest standard gun tap in plain HSS is 1/2-13, which is
$7.49, with the non sale price at $10.05. So I suspect that the tap
which you want is a lot more affordable than a new T-nut plate from
Aloris. :-)

Besides which -- at 5/8" -- you should be able to single-point
the threads so you won't need a tap.

But a chunk of hot-rolled steel should suffice -- just get one
big enough to make one or two T-nuts from.

[ ... ]

I will try to buy the correct hardware, especially the pancake nuts.

Hmm ... "pancake nut" sounds like what Aloris uses. And the
difference between the Aloris and the Phase-II is that Aloris uses a
keyed lockwasher which engages a keyway on the stud, while Phase-II uses
only a plain inner star lockwasher, increasing the chance that the
setting will shift as you tighten the locknut.

I'll attempt to do an ASCII drawing of the Dickson/Emco/ToolMex
nut. As usual, view with a fixed pitch font like Courier to avoid the
distortion which comes from a proportional pitch font.

+-------+ +-------+
||||||||||||||||||||||| ---- Knurled grip
|||||||||||||||||||||||
+---+ Z Z +---+
| Z Z |
| Z Z | ---------- Waist
| Z Z |
| Z Z |
| Z Z | (the 'Z's are the internal thread for
| Z Z | height adjustment)
| Z Z |
| Z Z |
| Z Z |
| Z Z |
+------+ Z Z +------+ -- Flange
+----------+ +----------+

For the Dickson style -- the Aloris pancake nuts won't work.

I will try to buy real Dickson pancake nuts, when I figure out who in
the US carries them. Or ships to the US under reasonable terms.

Why not make your own? I've made some for some of my holders
for the Emco-Maier Compact-5/CNC. I never even *considered* buying the
nuts.

[ ... ]

Thanks for this list. I'll be thinking this over.

The two above are what I would look for as the first additions
to what comes in the "set". Of course -- if you aren't planning to use
insert tooling, the BXA-16 or BXA-16N would not make sense for you. But
you did ask what *I* would buy and why, so I tried to answer that. And
since you have a lathe of similar manufacture and size to mine, I think
that it is not too bad a selection. The multi-tool holder makes more
sense if you have a bed turret for your machine (as I do), and plan to
occasionally go into small "production" mode. :-)

No apology needed. I asked your personal opinion, based on your
experience with actual use (versus my catalog-reading). I also note
that there is considerable agreement between your list and the various
starter kits on offer as to the four or five most necessary holders.
This is exactly the kind of information I need.

But that was to cover those who may (want to) say "but this
isn't what *I* would suggest (with or without suggesting on their own).
After all -- not everyone is happy with the same tooling.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On 2008-01-04, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
In article ,
"DoN. Nichols" wrote:

[ ... ]

By the way, is there anything one can smear on the tapers to make
subsequent disassembly easier? Moly grease?

You don't *want* grease on them. The male nose taper for the
L-00 is a self-releasing taper, and the threaded ring will apply

[ ... ]

Also -- any grease in there will be likely to hold some swarf
which will then dent either the collet adaptor or the inside taper of
the spindle -- or both -- introducing some more runout.

I'm assuming that one will always wipe the mating surfaces clean before
attempting assembly, as getting swarf into things is *always* a
possibility, even in the absence of an intentional layer of grease.
Once clamped together, subsequent swarf is mechanically excluded.

The clamping pressure in the taper is more than enough to displace a
layer of thing grease. Or anhydrous lanolin.

O.K. For that -- go with Vactra No. 2 Waylube. It is thick
enough to say in place, but easy enough to clean off -- especially with
a spritz of WD-40 -- one of the few things which it *is* good for. :-)

[ ... ]

The nice lady at Clausing suggested that I call Royal for information on
the closer, and gave me their 800 number.

O.K. That may get you the information you need. (But really, I
think that you *have* all that you need for removing the collet adaptor.

I did not find a model number on the closer, so I hope that the fact
that it is fitted to a 5914 suffices.

I think that they will differ only in overall length. There is
no visible model number on mine, either. I'm presuming that you have a
lever style closer.

I talked to Royal Products yesterday. They had no problem identifying
the specific lever closer used; all that differs is the length of the
drawtube. They prefer to pull the drawtube assembly and use a
broomstick of brass rod to tap the collet holder out of the taper from
behind.

Hmm ... while I did that the one time I forgot to put the nose
protector on -- there is not much access to the back rim given the taper
it is in. I think that turning the end into a long-stemmed mushroom
would help a bit.

While the engineer allowed that many people use the nosepiece
to pop the collet holder out, pushing a hardened steel holder out with
an aluminum nosepiece wears the expensive nosepiece out fairly quickly,
and is not recommended.

When I asked what the nosepiece was for, he laughed and said it was
largely to keep the now jobless clamping ring from jingling as the
machine runs, and also keeps swarf out.

Well ... I can certainly agree with keeping the ring from
jingling, there are also protection nosepieces on the 2-1/4x8 original
spindle, and those have socket holes for a pin spanner to use to pop out
the collet adaptor.

And I've not yet noticed any wear on the protective nosepiece
from using it as I have described -- though the 2-1/4x8 one was steel
(and I turned up a replacement, because the original's holes were pretty
badly worn -- just as are the ones on the L-00 clamping ring on my
current one. That is scheduled for replacement next time I have the
spindle out.


One thing which you may need to know if there is a collet in the
closer right now. Somewhere around the large diameter hub of the closer
at the far end of the headstock there is a piece of steel perhaps 1/8:
thick visible edge on, with a relieved area near one end. Press down on
that to disengage the other end from a set of notches in a flange on the
end of the spindle, and this will allow you to loosen (or tighten) the
drawbar on the collet. Rotate the top away from you to unscrew the
collet, and use the lever to kick the collet out far enough for you to
grip and remove it. Once this is done, you can use the spanner wrench
to loosen the ring and pop the collet adaptor out of the spindle.

Yes, I found all this, by fiddling.

I also have pdfs of the drawings, free from Royal.

Great! I would ask for e-mailing copies, but they would never
make it past the size limits on my spam/virus filtering. Any e-mail
over a total size of 30K is rejected before I even find out who it is. :-)

[ ... ]

Given the weight of the largest chuck -- probably a 4-jaw -- and
the torque needed to accelerate that (even without a load) -- you want
to set the acceleration time down far enough so it won't trip the
over-current under those conditions -- and then a bit more to allow for
the weight of a workpiece in the chuck. (Note that a 4-jaw at full
speed can be a scary object anyway -- and always have the jaws firmly
clamped on something so they don't back out and get launched across the
shop -- or into you.

OK. Normal default startup ramp is 10 seconds, if I recall. On the
mill, I shortened that to 3 seconds, and this has not caused breaker
tripping. This is with a 1 HP motor.

O.K. Ten seconds should be plenty. You can consider turning it
to shorter times when doing tapping with stock in a collet and using a
releasing tapping head in a turret. That is where you want to be able
to reverse the spindle fairly quickly (certainly a lot more quickly than
if you are stuck with a single-phase cap start motor, where you have to
wait for it to slow almost all the way down before switching it into
reverse so you can back out the tap. The tapping head releases, so you
don't have to stop too quickly -- but you lose time per part reversing
to back the tap out.

If I get serious about rapid stops, I can always add a braking resistor.

Indeed. Note that with the extra radius and mass of a big
chuck, you will need more braking time -- or a serious braking
resistor -- to handle reversing -- or even just starting at a high speed
setting.

Yes. I'll see how it goes. I can always add a braking resistor, but I
will be sure to leave space for such.

O.K

Good Luck,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

In article ,
"DoN. Nichols" wrote:

On 2008-01-04, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
In article ,
"DoN. Nichols" wrote:

[ ... ]

By the way, is there anything one can smear on the tapers to make
subsequent disassembly easier? Moly grease?

You don't *want* grease on them. The male nose taper for the
L-00 is a self-releasing taper, and the threaded ring will apply

[ ... ]

Also -- any grease in there will be likely to hold some swarf
which will then dent either the collet adaptor or the inside taper of
the spindle -- or both -- introducing some more runout.

I'm assuming that one will always wipe the mating surfaces clean before
attempting assembly, as getting swarf into things is *always* a
possibility, even in the absence of an intentional layer of grease.
Once clamped together, subsequent swarf is mechanically excluded.

The clamping pressure in the taper is more than enough to displace a
layer of thing grease. Or anhydrous lanolin.

O.K. For that -- go with Vactra No. 2 Waylube. It is thick
enough to say in place, but easy enough to clean off -- especially with
a spritz of WD-40 -- one of the few things which it *is* good for. :-)

Vactra #2? Of course!


The nice lady at Clausing suggested that I call Royal for information on
the closer, and gave me their 800 number.

O.K. That may get you the information you need. (But really, I
think that you *have* all that you need for removing the collet adaptor.

I did not find a model number on the closer, so I hope that the fact
that it is fitted to a 5914 suffices.

I think that they will differ only in overall length. There is
no visible model number on mine, either. I'm presuming that you have a
lever style closer.

I talked to Royal Products yesterday. They had no problem identifying
the specific lever closer used; all that differs is the length of the
drawtube. They prefer to pull the drawtube assembly and use a
broomstick or brass rod to tap the collet holder out of the taper from
behind.

Hmm ... while I did that the one time I forgot to put the nose
protector on -- there is not much access to the back rim given the taper
it is in. I think that turning the end into a long-stemmed mushroom
would help a bit.

Yes, once I manage to mount a chuck to machine the mushroom. In the
mean time, I bet the old tap-tap-tap method of bearing race removal will
work.


While the engineer allowed that many people use the nosepiece
to pop the collet holder out, pushing a hardened steel holder out with
an aluminum nosepiece wears the expensive nosepiece out fairly quickly,
and is not recommended.

When I asked what the nosepiece was for, he laughed and said it was
largely to keep the now jobless clamping ring from jingling as the
machine runs, and also keeps swarf out.

Well ... I can certainly agree with keeping the ring from
jingling, there are also protection nosepieces on the 2-1/4x8 original
spindle, and those have socket holes for a pin spanner to use to pop out
the collet adaptor.

And I've not yet noticed any wear on the protective nosepiece
from using it as I have described -- though the 2-1/4x8 one was steel
(and I turned up a replacement, because the original's holes were pretty
badly worn -- just as are the ones on the L-00 clamping ring on my
current one. That is scheduled for replacement next time I have the
spindle out.


One thing which you may need to know if there is a collet in the
closer right now. Somewhere around the large diameter hub of the closer
at the far end of the headstock there is a piece of steel perhaps 1/8:
thick visible edge on, with a relieved area near one end. Press down on
that to disengage the other end from a set of notches in a flange on the
end of the spindle, and this will allow you to loosen (or tighten) the
drawbar on the collet. Rotate the top away from you to unscrew the
collet, and use the lever to kick the collet out far enough for you to
grip and remove it. Once this is done, you can use the spanner wrench
to loosen the ring and pop the collet adaptor out of the spindle.

Yes, I found all this, by fiddling.

I also have pdfs of the drawings, free from Royal.

Great! I would ask for e-mailing copies, but they would never
make it past the size limits on my spam/virus filtering. Any e-mail
over a total size of 30K is rejected before I even find out who it is. :-)

I don't think Royal will mind if I post the pdfs to the dropbox, when I
have some time.

First order of business is to wire the lathe up, which will consume the
better part of the weekend by the time it's all done.

Joe Gwinn

In article ,
"DoN. Nichols" wrote:

On 2008-01-04, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
In article ,
"DoN. Nichols" wrote:

On 2008-01-03, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
In article ,
"DoN. Nichols" wrote:

On 2008-01-02, Joseph Gwinn wrote:

But most people who order a *new* Aloris toolpost also have a
milling machine available, so they can prepare the T-nut locally more
quickly than the communications and extra shipping to have Aloris do it.
Even if I were to buy a brand new Aloris toolpost, I think that I would
machine it in house instead of jumping through the extra hoops to have
Aloris do it for me. :-)

I have a mill too. I don't know which approach is more trouble. Turns
out that MSC gives you one more holder in the starter kit than Aloris,
and skips the machining, so the machining costs one holder, call it $75
to $100.

O.K.

By the way, what is the diameter and thread of the hole in the Aloris
T-nut? 5/8-18? (It might be cheaper to get an extra Aloris T-nut than
to buy the 5/8-18 tap needed to make a new T-Nut for the Dickson.)

I honestly don't know. While I have several Aloris tool holders
(some bought new) and the fancy Knurling tool -- I only have a Phase-II
toolpost -- which has a metric thread. But that is pretty close to a
5/8" -- probably 1 16mm, so I would expect 5/8-18 for the Aloris.

But as for "cheaper" -- MSC currently has 5/8 HSS gun taps on
sale in the lastest flyer for as little as ... hmm ... no 5/8" taps in
the flyer except a long-reach (extension) one by OSG which is 5/8-11 and
$41.79. The nearest standard gun tap in plain HSS is 1/2-13, which is
$7.49, with the non sale price at $10.05. So I suspect that the tap
which you want is a lot more affordable than a new T-nut plate from
Aloris. :-)

I think that the blank T-nut is about $40 too. Or was that the machined
T-Nut?

In any event, if one has the tap, then one can make any number of T-Nuts.


Besides which -- at 5/8" -- you should be able to single-point
the threads so you won't need a tap.

But a chunk of hot-rolled steel should suffice -- just get one
big enough to make one or two T-nuts from.

Chicken-and-egg problem. I first have to learn how to make threads on
the lathe.



[ ... ]

Thanks for this list. I'll be thinking this over.

The two above are what I would look for as the first additions
to what comes in the "set". Of course -- if you aren't planning to use
insert tooling, the BXA-16 or BXA-16N would not make sense for you. But
you did ask what *I* would buy and why, so I tried to answer that. And
since you have a lathe of similar manufacture and size to mine, I think
that it is not too bad a selection. The multi-tool holder makes more
sense if you have a bed turret for your machine (as I do), and plan to
occasionally go into small "production" mode. :-)

No apology needed. I asked your personal opinion, based on your
experience with actual use (versus my catalog-reading). I also note
that there is considerable agreement between your list and the various
starter kits on offer as to the four or five most necessary holders.
This is exactly the kind of information I need.

But that was to cover those who may (want to) say "but this
isn't what *I* would suggest (with or without suggesting on their own).
After all -- not everyone is happy with the same tooling.

OK.


Joe Gwinn

In article ,
Paul wrote:

Hey Joe

I just converted my 5904 Clausing to a VFD, how I did it is just one of
several ways so use or ignore whatever you want.

I stripped all the motor and motor mount brackets, the counter shaft
with the clutch/brake, and the speed control on the top of the headstock
off the machine, as well as the original electrics (except the drum
reverser switch). A new motor mount bracket was fabricated to position
the motor at the old counter shaft location using the mounting studs for
the counter shaft assembly.

The VFD I acquired came in a nice enclosure and was then mounted on the
back of the base cabinet, where the original junction box/disconnect
was. I wired the original drum switch (controlled by the
forward/off/reverse lever on the front) to the VFD's forward and reverse
inputs. I purchased a die cast project box and an appropriate pot (from
Fry's Electronics) for speed control and mounted them on the cast boss
where the original hydraulic speed adjuster was. I also replaced the
original 2 hp 1740 rpm motor with a 3 hp 3450 rpm motor driving the
spindle with the original size cogged belt, the motor pulley is now half
the size of the spindle pulley. The VFD high and low frequencies were
programed to approximate the speed range obtained with the original
hydraulic speed control. Accel/decel times were originally set to 2
seconds but the decel time was reset to 5 seconds to avoid overcurrent
trips caused by the inertia of the spindle and chuck. A braking
resistor will allow the preferred 2 seconds, I'm scrounging one at this
time.

So far the conversion is a big plus, much less vibration and noise as
compared to the mechanical drive. I used to have finish problems when
turning aluminum that I could never track down and I always suspected
the mechanical drive to be the issue even though it was in good
mechanical order. I now get beautiful finishes on aluminum and
attribute this to the elimination of the stiff variable pulley belt, I
think the cogs or slots in the belt were the cause of the finish issues.
The spindle can be 'plugged' from forward to reverse with no issues,
other than the too long decel time, I recently had to turn a thread to a
shoulder and found it much easier than before due to the better controls.

I have some pictures of the project and will figure out how to post some
to the dropbox eventually.

This sounds like a very good conversion, but is a future project.
First, I will get the lathe going in its present form, and use it for a
while, for the experience.

The pictures (plus the text of this email) would make a nice addition to
the dropbox.

That said, the bottom shaft on the variator does wobble badly, and I bet
it needs that famous plastic bushing.


I have some opinions on tool posts for this machine if you want to hear
them also.

I would certainly be interested.


Have fun with the new machine!

Thanks,

Joe (Grease-Face) Gwinn

Joseph Gwinn wrote:
In article ,
Paul wrote:


I have some pictures of the project and will figure out how to post some
to the dropbox eventually.


This sounds like a very good conversion, but is a future project.
First, I will get the lathe going in its present form, and use it for a
while, for the experience.

The pictures (plus the text of this email) would make a nice addition to
the dropbox.

That said, the bottom shaft on the variator does wobble badly, and I bet
it needs that famous plastic bushing.


Even with good bushings the small shaft that retains the piston block
will wobble somewhat, mine did and I believe those bushings to be OK.
They looked pretty new when I stripped the original stuff out and there
was a spare set that came with the machine, I think somebody bought two
sets. Anyway, if you end up needing them, and I can find them, I'll
send them your way as I don't think I'll need them anymore.


I have some opinions on tool posts for this machine if you want to hear
them also.


I would certainly be interested.

BXA is the correct size for this machine, and the Phase II I have has
been more than adequate even though it's the (GASP) dreaded piston
version. It works just fine, if you just have to have the wedge style
go for it but don't be afraid of the piston type. I've used a genuine
Aloris 'D' size and it was quite nice, this on a much larger lathe than
mine, I also have some experience with an 'A' size wedge type (I don't
know what brand) and found it to be somewhat lacking. I'm pretty sure
it was not an Aloris but which import I couldn't say.

DoN gave me some good advice back when I got the Phase II which is to
replace the tool bit clamp setscrews with a decent USA brand, I bought a
box of 100 Holochrome brand and replaced them all. The original ones
were certainly of lesser quality and prone to stripping or splitting the
socket. I've made a couple of tool holders over time, the knurled thumb
nut is available from MSC, but I made a batch of my own. The jamb nuts
I purchased. I used imperial size fasteners for the homemade ones.

The lathe came to me with the familiar four position tool post, and was
adequate, just not convenient. The wedge post is for sure better.

Regards
Paul




Have fun with the new machine!


Thanks,

Joe (Grease-Face) Gwinn


--
-----------------------------------------
It's a Linux world....well, it oughta be.
-----------------------------------------

In article ,
Paul wrote:

Joseph Gwinn wrote:
In article ,
Paul wrote:

This sounds like a very good conversion, but is a future project.
First, I will get the lathe going in its present form, and use it for a
while, for the experience.

That said, the bottom shaft on the variator does wobble badly, and I bet
it needs that famous plastic bushing.

Even with good bushings the small shaft that retains the piston block
will wobble somewhat, mine did and I believe those bushings to be OK.
They looked pretty new when I stripped the original stuff out and there
was a spare set that came with the machine, I think somebody bought two
sets. Anyway, if you end up needing them, and I can find them, I'll
send them your way as I don't think I'll need them anymore.

I may well need those bushings, so I'm putting my dibs in. Thanks for
the kind offer.

I bought the manual from Clausing, and it should arrive this coming
week. Then, I will take the wobbling assembly apart, and will see what
I will see.


I have some opinions on tool posts for this machine if you want to hear
them also.

I would certainly be interested.

BXA is the correct size for this machine, and the Phase II I have has
been more than adequate even though it's the (GASP) dreaded piston
version. It works just fine, if you just have to have the wedge style
go for it but don't be afraid of the piston type. I've used a genuine
Aloris 'D' size and it was quite nice, this on a much larger lathe than
mine, I also have some experience with an 'A' size wedge type (I don't
know what brand) and found it to be somewhat lacking. I'm pretty sure
it was not an Aloris but which import I couldn't say.

All reports point to BXA as the correct size. Given the small price
differential between Aloris and the knockoffs, I'm leaning towards
genuine Aloris, but had not really thought about piston versus wedge.

I guess the piston approach is more-or-less equivalent in mechanical
solidity to the Dickson, despite the differences in mechanical setup,
and the Dickson is also reported to be adequate.


DoN gave me some good advice back when I got the Phase II which is to
replace the tool bit clamp setscrews with a decent USA brand. I bought a
box of 100 Holochrome brand and replaced them all. The original ones
were certainly of lesser quality and prone to stripping or splitting the
socket.

Yes. Steel and tempering quality seems to be a weakness in all Chinese
and Indian machine-tool products.

I'll be replacing all the clamp screws on the Dickson-style toolpost
holders that came with the lathe, probably with Holochrome. I gather
that the Holochrome cap screws have been adequate on your Phase II
holders.


I've made a couple of tool holders over time, the knurled thumb
nut is available from MSC, but I made a batch of my own. The jamb nuts
I purchased. I used imperial size fasteners for the homemade ones.

The lathe came to me with the familiar four position tool post, and was
adequate, just not convenient. The wedge post is for sure better.

I also got a 4-side screwclamp holder, but with no attachment hardware
whatsoever. Who knows what it was to fit, as it seems a bit undersize
for the lathe.

Joe Gwinn

On 2008-01-06, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
In article ,
Paul wrote:

[ ... ]

BXA is the correct size for this machine, and the Phase II I have has
been more than adequate even though it's the (GASP) dreaded piston
version. It works just fine, if you just have to have the wedge style
go for it but don't be afraid of the piston type. I've used a genuine
Aloris 'D' size and it was quite nice, this on a much larger lathe than
mine, I also have some experience with an 'A' size wedge type (I don't
know what brand) and found it to be somewhat lacking. I'm pretty sure
it was not an Aloris but which import I couldn't say.

All reports point to BXA as the correct size. Given the small price
differential between Aloris and the knockoffs,

That differential can be a lot larger if you luck into a sale
price on the Phase-II toolposts. (Unless you discover that they no
longer offer sale prices on the wedge style.

I'm leaning towards
genuine Aloris, but had not really thought about piston versus wedge.

I guess the piston approach is more-or-less equivalent in mechanical
solidity to the Dickson, despite the differences in mechanical setup,
and the Dickson is also reported to be adequate.

I believe the Dickson to be more rigid than the piston style
toolposts.

The wedge style pulls the dovetail holder into firm contact with
the wings of the dovetail on the toolpost, thus giving a fairly wide
base.

The Dickson style toolpost pulls (via the T-slot and cam-driven
T-bolt) the widely separated V-ways into firm contact, giving similar
support.

The piston style, however, pushes the holder *away* from the
toolpost, so the only firm contact is on the angled part of the
dovetail, and the center where the piston presses. The "wings" are
separated by a gap between the holder and the toolpost. To my mind,
this leaves a little more give possible.

Also -- a second thing to beware of with the piston style. If
there is no tool holder on either dovetail, the locking lever can rotate
a full 360 degrees, making it possible for the ball handle to come into
interference with the moving jaws of the chuck. I have read (here) of
it resulting in the ball handle being turned into shrapnel. Even aside
from this -- the angle at which the handle locks up the holder shifts by
90 degrees when you move from the turning station to the facing/boring
station.

All in all -- I am much happier with the Wedge style, though at
the time I did not know of the lock-up lever angle changes.

DoN gave me some good advice back when I got the Phase II which is to
replace the tool bit clamp setscrews with a decent USA brand. I bought a
box of 100 Holochrome brand and replaced them all. The original ones
were certainly of lesser quality and prone to stripping or splitting the
socket.

Yes. Steel and tempering quality seems to be a weakness in all Chinese
and Indian machine-tool products.

I'll be replacing all the clamp screws on the Dickson-style toolpost
holders that came with the lathe, probably with Holochrome. I gather
that the Holochrome cap screws have been adequate on your Phase II
holders.

They have in mine. FWIW, I wound up putting in imperial screws
instead of the metric ones. It *is* possible to re-thread them -- but
those holders are hard. The advantage to re-threading them is that I
use the same T-handled Allen wrench for both the Aloris and the Phase-II
holders. The Phase-II screws are 8mm, and the Aloris 5/16" (very close
in diameter), and the thread pitch is pretty close, so you don't have
much work to do until you are near the bottom of the threads in the
holder. I used a HSS gun tap for the purpose, and then replaced it with
a new and sharp one. Don't try it with a carbon steel one -- you will
almost certainly break that in the holders. :-)


I've made a couple of tool holders over time, the knurled thumb
nut is available from MSC, but I made a batch of my own. The jamb nuts
I purchased. I used imperial size fasteners for the homemade ones.

The lathe came to me with the familiar four position tool post, and was
adequate, just not convenient. The wedge post is for sure better.

I also got a 4-side screwclamp holder, but with no attachment hardware
whatsoever. Who knows what it was to fit, as it seems a bit undersize
for the lathe.

Just make another T-nut and tap it for a center post of the
proper diameter. I've got one -- which came from a 13" Jet, and which I
used for the very short time it took to get the Phase-II set. (Yes, it
was on sale at the time.)

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

"Joseph Gwinn" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"DoN. Nichols" wrote:

On 2008-01-02, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
In article ,
"DoN. Nichols" wrote:

snip

The nice lady at Clausing suggested that I call Royal for information on
the closer, and gave me their 800 number.

I did not find a model number on the closer, so I hope that the fact
that it is fitted to a 5914 suffices.

FWIW, the Royal collet closer on my 5914 also has no specific part number on
it anywhere.

Are you getting the closer manual from Clausing or Royal? Last I heard,
Royal was about to stop selling manual closers in favor or automatic
versions. If that's true it could make a lot of sense to get all of your
questions asked (and replacement parts bought) now. In time the supply of
parts and availability of knowledgeable tech support will disappear.