clare, at, snyder.on.ca wrote:

On 24 Sep 2007 01:10:00 GMT, (DoN. Nichols)
wrote:

I suspect that portable radios in the past (tube days) used F
cells more commonly than today, which is why the 6V lantern battery was
designed to be just the right size to hold four F cells.

The "F" designation was for "F"ilament use. Lots of old batteries had
1.5 volt filaments in the rectifier tubes, so you had an "A", a "B"
and an "F" battery.


Wrong. The 'A' battery supplied the filaments. the 'B' battery
supplied the plate, or B+, and the 'C" battery supplied the grid bias.
Some radios used a separate 'C' battery, and there a re reports of fifty
year old 'C' batteries still supplying the full terminal voltage. They
had no load when the radio was turned off, even though they weren't
switched.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

On Mon, 24 Sep 2007 04:33:08 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:

Ed Huntress wrote:

"Abrasha" wrote in message
news
Ed Huntress wrote:
"Abrasha" wrote in message
. ..
Dixon wrote:
Here's a neat little trick to save $ on double A batteries if it's
true. If anyone here tries it post back.
http://www.break.com/index/how-to-sa...batteries.html
Bull****!

This is what's inside!
http://www.break.com/index/lantern-b...ick-fails.html

Besides, anyone with half a brain, can see, that those 32 batteries do
not fit inside that space!

Uh, I don't know which half you're referring to, Abrasha, but if it's the
half that multiplies, here are the relevant numbers:

AA - length, 50.5 mm, diameter 14 mm

Six-volt lantern battery - height, 115 mm, width and length, 68 mm

32 AA's fit in there with room to spare.

--
Ed Huntress

However,

The video shows 32 batteries neatly falling out, without them having been
connected their positive and negative poles in any way to each other, to
create one continuous battery.

Obviously a hoax.

Well, my first thought was that he must have cut off all of the connections
first, for the dramatic effect, but who knows. Next time I have a dead
lantern battery (there's one around here somewhere) I'll open it up and see
what's inside.

--
Ed Huntress


I opened a damaged Energiser 6 V lantern battery a few months ago,
and it had four large cells in it.


Oh dear Crom...two Liberals lost their entire cognitive powers.
Industrial accidents can be horrible. Brrr.

I wonder if they even noticed the loss?

Gunner

In article ,
DoN. Nichols wrote:
: I wish that I could *see* the video. Even with flash installed
:and turned on, I can't see it on a browser running in my unix system,
:which makes me think that it is yet another web site tailored to depend
n the unique bugs found in Internet Explorer, and it just won't run on
:anything other than a Windows system. (Just like the system run for
atients to check up on their status with my doctor's group -- it won't
:work fully on anything other than a Windows system.
:
: Can anyone tell me what brand of battery is being disassembled
:in the video?

The video plays just fine for me. I'm running CentOS 5 (aka RHEL 5,
basically a snapshot of Fedora Core 6), Firefox 1.5.0, and Shockwave
Flash 9.0 r31.

There's no brand visible on the label. Apparently the brand name has
been blacked out. The label just reads "Heavy Duty powercell," and
looks like the label on Walgreen's store brand batteries.

--
Bob Nichols AT comcast.net I am "RNichols42"

On 24 Sep 2007 07:36:48 -0400, Maxwell Lol wrote:

(Curt Welch) writes:

(Curt Welch) wrote:
We buy AAs from costco and I
think we pay something like $10 for 24,

Actually, the wife is there now buying AAs, and the current price is
36 for $12.29 (Duracell Alkaline) so that's about $11 for 32. If the 6V
cost you $8 then all you would be saving was $3 ....

If the lantern battery was Alkaline.....

.... it would (and does) cost about 11 bux.

On Mon, 24 Sep 2007 01:09:09 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:



Now -- if you added a diode in series with each series string
before paralleling them, you should be fine -- but how much would the
eight diodes add to the cost of the battery? :-)

Not to mention the voltage drop of four diodes in series -- something like
2.8 V? Add more cells... d8-)


The diodes would be in parallel, not series. One diode for each 4 cell 6V
string, Eight diodes in all. If they were Schottky diodes, the voltage drop
might be acceptable. But the cost just keeps going up. Unless the production
rate of F cells has dropped to the point where they are uneconomic.


Be much more fun to have two proper sized Lithium cells. IED anyone?



Mark Rand
RTFM

clare at snyder.on.ca wrote:
On 24 Sep 2007 01:10:00 GMT, (DoN. Nichols)
wrote:

The "F" designation was for "F"ilament use. Lots of old batteries had
1.5 volt filaments in the rectifier tubes, so you had an "A", a "B"
and an "F" battery.


And "C" for bias voltage. I can remember a few that had them.
...lew...

Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Wrong. The 'A' battery supplied the filaments. the 'B' battery
supplied the plate, or B+, and the 'C" battery supplied the grid bias.
Some radios used a separate 'C' battery, and there a re reports of fifty
year old 'C' batteries still supplying the full terminal voltage. They
had no load when the radio was turned off, even though they weren't
switched.
YEP. The "C" negative term went to the grid resistor and thence to
the grid with the input coupled via. a capacitor. Hence no circuit path.
No current drain.
...lew...

On Sep 24, 5:02 am, clare at snyder.on.ca wrote:


The "F" designation was for "F"ilament use. Lots of old batteries had
1.5 volt filaments in the rectifier tubes, so you had an "A", a "B"
and an "F" battery.

Now you are pulling our legs. You have a " B " battery for plate
voltage and just why do you have a rectifier tube?

The confusion is that there were A , B and C batteries for filaments,
plate voltage , and grid bias. But then there is also AAA, AA, C, D,
and F cells where the letter designates the size. I can't readily
find any source for the size designations, but it must be in some NEMA
standard.

Dan

On Mon, 24 Sep 2007 17:43:24 -0700, "
wrote:

On Sep 24, 5:02 am, clare at snyder.on.ca wrote:


The "F" designation was for "F"ilament use. Lots of old batteries had
1.5 volt filaments in the rectifier tubes, so you had an "A", a "B"
and an "F" battery.

Now you are pulling our legs. You have a " B " battery for plate
voltage and just why do you have a rectifier tube?

The confusion is that there were A , B and C batteries for filaments,
plate voltage , and grid bias. But then there is also AAA, AA, C, D,
and F cells where the letter designates the size. I can't readily
find any source for the size designations, but it must be in some NEMA
standard.

Dan

Well, I've worked on an old battery set that, like a car radio of the
time, had a multivibrator to make the high plate voltages from a lower
battery voltage. IIRC the main battery was 12 volts. Most of the
"valves" or vacuum tubes ran on either 12 volts or six (2 in series)
but the rectifier has a 1 or 2 volt filament. It used an "ignition"
battery - one of those that used to run doorbells, fencers, and
battery ignitions on some stationary engines years ago. It was called
the "F"ilament battery. I think it was some sort of "farm" radio.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

According to Ed Huntress :

"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message
...
According to john :

[ ... ]

A series, parallel connected cells would prematurely discharge into one
another untill they all went dead. It is never a good idea to leave
cells connected in parallel for any extended length of time without
being used.

Certainly a problem -- though less so with an identical batch
of unused cells right from the factory. And assembled into the lantern
battery housing, they should be pretty much all at the same temperature,
which would minimize the problem as well.

Now -- if you added a diode in series with each series string
before paralleling them, you should be fine -- but how much would the
eight diodes add to the cost of the battery? :-)

Not to mention the voltage drop of four diodes in series -- something like
2.8 V? Add more cells... d8-)

That was not what I was suggesting. See below (use a fixed
pitch font to avoid distortion of my ASCII drawing.)

(-) (+)
| |
+-:|-:|-:|-:|-||-+
| |
+-:|-:|-:|-:|-||-+
| |
+-:|-:|-:|-:|-||-+
| |
+-:|-:|-:|-:|-||-+
| |
+-:|-:|-:|-:|-||-+
| |
+-:|-:|-:|-:|-||-+
| |
+-:|-:|-:|-:|-||-+
| |
+-:|-:|-:|-:|-||-+

Here I use the more compact notation -:|- in place of the more normal
symbol for a cell of:

|
--| |--
|

and -||- as the closest that I can come to a single diode.

A "(-)" or "(+)" is a polarity sign for a terminal, while a '+'
without parens around it is a junction of two wires at right angles, or
a 90 degree bend in the wire.

So -- there would be only a single diode drop in series with
each series group of four cells -- 0.6 to 0.7 Volts for a silicon diode,
or about 0.15 Volts for a germanium diode (if you can still find those. :-)

Hmm ... what is the forward drop for a copper-oxide rectifier?
It has been ages since I have last seen them used anywhere except in the
rectifier in a multimeter or a panel-mount AC voltmeter -- which may
suggest that it is a pretty low drop. And it might be pretty easy to
make them as part of the strips bussing the cell groupings together.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

According to clarence at snyder dot on dot ca:
On 24 Sep 2007 01:10:00 GMT, (DoN. Nichols)
wrote:


I suspect that portable radios in the past (tube days) used F
cells more commonly than today, which is why the 6V lantern battery was
designed to be just the right size to hold four F cells.

The "F" designation was for "F"ilament use. Lots of old batteries had
1.5 volt filaments in the rectifier tubes, so you had an "A", a "B"
and an "F" battery.

But the "F" here indicates the *physical* dimensions of the
cell, not its function in the circuit, just as the 'D', 'C', 'AA' and
'AAA' cells which are still common designate a physical size. I'm
trying to remember the designator for the *big* single cells with a pair
of knurled nuts on the top for connection (or sometimes a Fhanestock
clip for each terminal). Those may have been 'G'. I know that as a kid
I made lots of things working from those.

The 'A' and 'B' designations were irrespective of physical size
(and the 'B' batteries covered a fairly wide range of voltage as well.)
I've used ones with 45V, 67-1/2V, and 135V. And, IIRC, the 'A'
batteries were the filament supply, 'B' for plate voltage, and 'C' (if
used) for negative bias supplies to get the filament closer to cutoff.
Most more recent tube circuits added a resistor in series with the
cathode, and bypassed that with a capacitor to provide a fairly stable
bias voltage, thus reducing the number of batteries (or supplies)
needed. This was termed "self bias".

Enjoy,
DoN.
--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

According to Robert Nichols :
In article ,
DoN. Nichols wrote:
: I wish that I could *see* the video. Even with flash installed
:and turned on, I can't see it on a browser running in my unix system,
:which makes me think that it is yet another web site tailored to depend
n the unique bugs found in Internet Explorer, and it just won't run on
:anything other than a Windows system. (Just like the system run for
atients to check up on their status with my doctor's group -- it won't
:work fully on anything other than a Windows system.
:
: Can anyone tell me what brand of battery is being disassembled
:in the video?

The video plays just fine for me. I'm running CentOS 5 (aka RHEL 5,
basically a snapshot of Fedora Core 6), Firefox 1.5.0, and Shockwave
Flash 9.0 r31.

O.K. What platform? If it is Intel based it may have a newer
version of Flash available for it. I've got:

================================================== ====================
Flash Player 7 for Solaris
Version 7.0.67.0
December 2006
================================================== ====================

so only about 3/4 of a year old, yet two major version numbers lower.
It seems that they take longer to get a given version out for the SPARC
platform than for the Intel platform.

There's no brand visible on the label. Apparently the brand name has
been blacked out. The label just reads "Heavy Duty powercell," and
looks like the label on Walgreen's store brand batteries.

Thanks.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

"DoN. Nichols" wrote:

That was not what I was suggesting. See below (use a fixed
pitch font to avoid distortion of my ASCII drawing.)

(-) (+)
| |
+-:|-:|-:|-:|-||-+
| |
+-:|-:|-:|-:|-||-+
| |
+-:|-:|-:|-:|-||-+
| |
+-:|-:|-:|-:|-||-+
| |
+-:|-:|-:|-:|-||-+
| |
+-:|-:|-:|-:|-||-+
| |
+-:|-:|-:|-:|-||-+
| |
+-:|-:|-:|-:|-||-+

Here I use the more compact notation -:|- in place of the more normal
symbol for a cell of:

|
--| |--
|

and -||- as the closest that I can come to a single diode.

A "(-)" or "(+)" is a polarity sign for a terminal, while a '+'
without parens around it is a junction of two wires at right angles, or
a 90 degree bend in the wire.

So -- there would be only a single diode drop in series with
each series group of four cells -- 0.6 to 0.7 Volts for a silicon diode,
or about 0.15 Volts for a germanium diode (if you can still find those. :-)

Hmm ... what is the forward drop for a copper-oxide rectifier?
It has been ages since I have last seen them used anywhere except in the
rectifier in a multimeter or a panel-mount AC voltmeter -- which may
suggest that it is a pretty low drop. And it might be pretty easy to
make them as part of the strips bussing the cell groupings together.


How about Schottky diodes?



--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

clare, at, snyder.on.ca wrote:

Well, I've worked on an old battery set that, like a car radio of the
time, had a multivibrator to make the high plate voltages from a lower
battery voltage. IIRC the main battery was 12 volts. Most of the
"valves" or vacuum tubes ran on either 12 volts or six (2 in series)
but the rectifier has a 1 or 2 volt filament.


I worked on hundreds of old radios in the '60s and '70s, and still
have a lot of service data. The people on news:rec.antiques.radio+phono
have a lot more.

All I have ever seen used in a car radio was the 0Z4 gas rectifier, or
a regular 6 or 12 volt filament regulator like the 6AX4 and 12AX4. A
very few used a synchronous vibrator, and eliminated the need for a
rectifier. (Till the contacts welded).


It used an "ignition"
battery - one of those that used to run doorbells, fencers, and
battery ignitions on some stationary engines years ago. It was called
the "F"ilament battery. I think it was some sort of "farm" radio.


Farm radios were 32 volts, to run of the winchargers used to charge
the batteries for lights in a farmhouse.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

"DoN. Nichols" wrote:

According to clarence at snyder dot on dot ca:
On 24 Sep 2007 01:10:00 GMT, (DoN. Nichols)
wrote:


I suspect that portable radios in the past (tube days) used F
cells more commonly than today, which is why the 6V lantern battery was
designed to be just the right size to hold four F cells.

The "F" designation was for "F"ilament use. Lots of old batteries had
1.5 volt filaments in the rectifier tubes, so you had an "A", a "B"
and an "F" battery.

But the "F" here indicates the *physical* dimensions of the
cell, not its function in the circuit, just as the 'D', 'C', 'AA' and
'AAA' cells which are still common designate a physical size. I'm
trying to remember the designator for the *big* single cells with a pair
of knurled nuts on the top for connection (or sometimes a Fhanestock
clip for each terminal). Those may have been 'G'. I know that as a kid
I made lots of things working from those.


http://www.islandregister.com/phones/bluebell.jpg


The 'A' and 'B' designations were irrespective of physical size
(and the 'B' batteries covered a fairly wide range of voltage as well.)
I've used ones with 45V, 67-1/2V, and 135V. And, IIRC, the 'A'
batteries were the filament supply, 'B' for plate voltage, and 'C' (if
used) for negative bias supplies to get the filament closer to cutoff.
Most more recent tube circuits added a resistor in series with the
cathode, and bypassed that with a capacitor to provide a fairly stable
bias voltage, thus reducing the number of batteries (or supplies)
needed. This was termed "self bias".

Enjoy,
DoN.
--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

According to Michael A. Terrell :
"DoN. Nichols" wrote:

That was not what I was suggesting. See below (use a fixed
pitch font to avoid distortion of my ASCII drawing.)

[ ... ]

Hmm ... what is the forward drop for a copper-oxide rectifier?
It has been ages since I have last seen them used anywhere except in the
rectifier in a multimeter or a panel-mount AC voltmeter -- which may
suggest that it is a pretty low drop. And it might be pretty easy to
make them as part of the strips bussing the cell groupings together.


How about Schottky diodes?

What is the forward voltage drop on those? I don't remember
ever actually using them in something. And what do they cost compared
to making copper-oxide rectifiers in place?

Enjoy,
DoN.
--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

According to Michael A. Terrell :
"DoN. Nichols" wrote:

[ ... ]

trying to remember the designator for the *big* single cells with a pair
of knurled nuts on the top for connection (or sometimes a Fhanestock
clip for each terminal). Those may have been 'G'. I know that as a kid
I made lots of things working from those.


http://www.islandregister.com/phones/bluebell.jpg

That's the size and shape -- but a bit older than the ones which
I used. Mine were mostly Eveready, and some were thumb nut terminals,
instead of the Fahnestock clips which were on this one.

Unfortunately -- that just said "dry cell", just as I remembered
for most -- but there *was* a size letter for them. (Or was it "No. 6"
instead?)

Thanks,
DoN.
--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 00:34:04 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:

clare, at, snyder.on.ca wrote:

Well, I've worked on an old battery set that, like a car radio of the
time, had a multivibrator to make the high plate voltages from a lower
battery voltage. IIRC the main battery was 12 volts. Most of the
"valves" or vacuum tubes ran on either 12 volts or six (2 in series)
but the rectifier has a 1 or 2 volt filament.


I worked on hundreds of old radios in the '60s and '70s, and still
have a lot of service data. The people on news:rec.antiques.radio+phono
have a lot more.

All I have ever seen used in a car radio was the 0Z4 gas rectifier, or
a regular 6 or 12 volt filament regulator like the 6AX4 and 12AX4. A
very few used a synchronous vibrator, and eliminated the need for a
rectifier. (Till the contacts welded).


It used an "ignition"
battery - one of those that used to run doorbells, fencers, and
battery ignitions on some stationary engines years ago. It was called
the "F"ilament battery. I think it was some sort of "farm" radio.


Farm radios were 32 volts, to run of the winchargers used to charge
the batteries for lights in a farmhouse.


I thought they were 48 volts? Hence our telephone systems still run
48 volts talk battery.

Gunner

Gunner Asch wrote in
:

On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 00:34:04 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:

clare, at, snyder.on.ca wrote:

Well, I've worked on an old battery set that, like a car
radio of the time, had a multivibrator to make the high
plate voltages from a lower battery voltage. IIRC the
main battery was 12 volts. Most of the "valves" or vacuum
tubes ran on either 12 volts or six (2 in series) but the
rectifier has a 1 or 2 volt filament.


I worked on hundreds of old radios in the '60s and '70s,
and still
have a lot of service data. The people on
news:rec.antiques.radio+phono have a lot more.

All I have ever seen used in a car radio was the 0Z4 gas
rectifier, or
a regular 6 or 12 volt filament regulator like the 6AX4 and
12AX4. A very few used a synchronous vibrator, and
eliminated the need for a rectifier. (Till the contacts
welded).


It used an "ignition"
battery - one of those that used to run doorbells,
fencers, and battery ignitions on some stationary engines
years ago. It was called the "F"ilament battery. I think
it was some sort of "farm" radio.


Farm radios were 32 volts, to run of the winchargers
used to charge
the batteries for lights in a farmhouse.


I thought they were 48 volts? Hence our telephone systems
still run 48 volts talk battery.

Gunner



Nope...32 volts. I have my grandmother's 32 volt Delco
radio. Still works! They had a wind carger, and shelves of
glass-jar batteries in the basement...before REA came
through.

Ken

clare at snyder.on.ca wrote:
Well, I've worked on an old battery set that, like a car radio of the
time, had a multivibrator to make the high plate voltages from a lower
battery voltage. IIRC the main battery was 12 volts. Most of the
"valves" or vacuum tubes ran on either 12 volts or six (2 in series)
but the rectifier has a 1 or 2 volt filament. It used an "ignition"
battery - one of those that used to run doorbells, fencers, and
battery ignitions on some stationary engines years ago. It was called
the "F"ilament battery. I think it was some sort of "farm" radio.

They wer not "multivibrators" just vibrator. there were the single
and "synchronus" varities, (which eliminated the need for a
rectifier). Then there were the rectifiers that didnt need fil.
voltage ( OZ4 or some such it's been a way to long to remember).
I had been playing around with such in the early 40s.
Anything else you would like to know about vibrator power supplies?
...lew...

Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Farm radios were 32 volts, to run of the winchargers used to charge
the batteries for lights in a farmhouse.

Right on. My great uncles lived on a farm with such and I spent
lots of time with them while a kid. in the early 40s. In fact
was there on the infamous Dec day.
...lew...

Gunner Asch wrote:

On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 00:34:04 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:

Farm radios were 32 volts, to run of the winchargers used to charge
the batteries for lights in a farmhouse.

I thought they were 48 volts? Hence our telephone systems still run
48 volts talk battery.

Gunner

Can't say about ALL, but the one I remember was 32V. Boy what an
impressive bank of glass batteries with charge indicator balls
in each one.
...lew...

DoN. Nichols wrote:
I'm
trying to remember the designator for the *big* single cells with a pair
of knurled nuts on the top for connection (or sometimes a Fhanestock
clip for each terminal). Those may have been 'G'. I know that as a kid
I made lots of things working from those.
Enjoy,
DoN.

"doorbell" batteries. :-)
...lew...

lew hartswick fired this volley in
:

DoN. Nichols wrote:
I'm
trying to remember the designator for the *big* single cells with a
pair
of knurled nuts on the top for connection (or sometimes a Fhanestock
clip for each terminal). Those may have been 'G'. I know that as a
kid
I made lots of things working from those.
Enjoy,
DoN.

"doorbell" batteries. :-)
...lew...


My favorite toys at age 11 were a pair of WeCo "test batteries". Each
was a dry cell pack totalling 48V with a Fahnestock clip at each 6v tap.
What a cool thing for a kid to create mayhem with!

My VW microbus had a tube radio with a non-syncronous vibrator supply.
(it also had an electrically-wound mechanical clock in the dash... every
five minutes or so, you'd hear the solenoid yank the winding pawl --
Clunk!)

LLoyd

In article ,
DoN. Nichols wrote:
:According to Robert Nichols :
:
: The video plays just fine for me. I'm running CentOS 5 (aka RHEL 5,
: basically a snapshot of Fedora Core 6), Firefox 1.5.0, and Shockwave
: Flash 9.0 r31.
:
: O.K. What platform? If it is Intel based it may have a newer
:version of Flash available for it. I've got:
:
: ================================================== ====================
:Flash Player 7 for Solaris
:Version 7.0.67.0
ecember 2006
: ================================================== ====================
:
:so only about 3/4 of a year old, yet two major version numbers lower.
:It seems that they take longer to get a given version out for the SPARC
latform than for the Intel platform.

My CPU is an Intel Pentium 4. Flash Player 7 is the likely problem. A
lot of sites, including the comcast.net home page, require a newer
version now. I had a similar problem for a while because no Linux
version of Flash Player 8 was ever released. Linux users had to wait
for version 9.

According to
http://www.adobe.com/products/flashp...fo/systemreqs/
there is a Flash Player 9 available for Solaris 10.

--
Bob Nichols AT comcast.net I am "RNichols42"

"DoN. Nichols" wrote:

According to Michael A. Terrell :
"DoN. Nichols" wrote:

[ ... ]

trying to remember the designator for the *big* single cells with a pair
of knurled nuts on the top for connection (or sometimes a Fhanestock
clip for each terminal). Those may have been 'G'. I know that as a kid
I made lots of things working from those.


http://www.islandregister.com/phones/bluebell.jpg

That's the size and shape -- but a bit older than the ones which
I used. Mine were mostly Eveready, and some were thumb nut terminals,
instead of the Fahnestock clips which were on this one.

Unfortunately -- that just said "dry cell", just as I remembered
for most -- but there *was* a size letter for them. (Or was it "No. 6"
instead?)


Yes, they were a #6 cells, used for hand crank telephones and early
burglar alarms. They were so easy to buy, and so cheap that they were
used in school science classes.

BTW, I just found the outer casing of that 6 V Energizer lantern
battery, with the four compartments for 'F' cells. I just found another
lantern battery that I haven't opened. It has no label, but it is in
the same case as the other battery. The springs are corroded off the
top, so I'll bet that its a real mess inside.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

In , on 24 Sep 2007 01:10:00 GMT, DoN.
Nichols, wrote:
According to :
http://www.break.com/index/how-to-sa...batteries.html

I wish that I could *see* the video. Even with flash installed
and turned on, I can't see it on a browser running in my unix system,
which makes me think that it is yet another web site tailored to depend
on the unique bugs found in Internet Explorer, and it just won't run on
anything other than a Windows system.

Plays fine on my Debian box with flash 9, but won't
show on the FreeBSD box with flash 7.

Can anyone tell me what brand of battery is being disassembled
in the video?

First video: 6v - 32 AA
http://wizard.dyndns.org/cell.png

Second video: 12v A23 - 8 buttons

Third video: 6v - 4 F
http://wizard.dyndns.org/6v-4F.png

On Sep 24, 12:02 am, clare at snyder.on.ca wrote:
On 24 Sep 2007 01:10:00 GMT, (DoN. Nichols)
wrote:

I suspect that portable radios in the past (tube days) used F
cells more commonly than today, which is why the 6V lantern battery was
designed to be just the right size to hold four F cells.

The "F" designation was for "F"ilament use. Lots of old batteries had
1.5 volt filaments in the rectifier tubes, so you had an "A", a "B"
and an "F" battery.

No, doesn't make sense. A battery for a radio with a power rectifier
tube? That's like saying a gas cap for an electric car.

"A" is filament battery, "B" is B+ (plate) battery, "C" is bias
battery (although many radios were cleverly designed to not need a
bias battery).

Most commonly the "A" battery was a single lead-acid storage cell. You
can tell because the tubes were rated for 2.0V filaments (a lead-acid
cell under discharge is 1.9 to 2.0V).

Do not confuse "A", "B", "C" batteries with industry-standard cell
sizes. Battery is not the same as cell!

The F cell is just two sizes larger than the D cell. :-).

Tim.

On Sep 24, 9:36 pm, clare at snyder.on.ca wrote:
Well, I've worked on an old battery set that, like a car radio of the
time, had a multivibrator to make the high plate voltages from a lower
battery voltage. IIRC the main battery was 12 volts. Most of the
"valves" or vacuum tubes ran on either 12 volts or six (2 in series)
but the rectifier has a 1 or 2 volt filament. It used an "ignition"
battery - one of those that used to run doorbells, fencers, and
battery ignitions on some stationary engines years ago.

Again, you're mixing things up. Rectifier tubes along with battery run
filaments just doesn't make sense. Like saying a gas cap for an
electric car. Or an extension cord for natural gas. You're mixing
metaphors!

2V filament tubes were designed for use with lead-acid cells. (Each
cell is 1.9 to 2.0V under discharge).

Ignition batteries (aka "Number 6 cells") are 1.5V. There are 1.5V
tubes used in portable radio equipment from the 30's/40's/50's,
because if you're carrying something around you do not want to carry
around a sloshy heavy lead-acid cell (this was of course the days
before sealed cells and gel-cells) but a lighter and more portable (if
less economical) carbon-zinc cell.

It was called
the "F"ilament battery. I think it was some sort of "farm" radio.

Lots of farm radios. All used 2V tubes and a single-lead-acid cell for
the filament, or 6V tubes and three lead acid cells in series for the
filament, or occasionally some weird funky combination.

Ah, ignition cells. I remember cutting them open with a hacksaw when I
was six years old to get the carbon rods out to try to make carbon arc
lamps with hacked up extension cords. They kinda sorta worked. I can't
believe I survived being six... or seven... ("geez, why did all my
solder disappear in a bright blue flash when I touched it with the
soldering iron") or eight... ("I'll just hold onto this antenna wire
as I climb around on the roof of the house") or nine... ("Wowza, maybe
I should let the power supply discharge before I touch the 800V B+")

The kids electricity books of the time actually *did* tell you to cut
open batteries to get the carbon rods. And I'm not particularly old!
(OK, the books were a little dated by the time I found them, and maybe
they weren't aimed at six year olds...)

Tim.

According to lew hartswick :

[ ... ]

Anything else you would like to know about vibrator power supplies?

Well ... something else to *add*. The typical automotive
vibrator ran somewhere near 60 Hz (since there were lots of 60Hz
transformers around), but I had (and may still have somewhere) a special
vibrator and matching transformer which had the reed weighted to lower
the frequency to 20 Hz, and it was used to generate the ring signal for
small telephone exchanges -- from before the Sub-Cycle passive devices
to do the same thing by dividing the 60 Hz power line frequency by
three. (I never have been able to find out exactly how they did that,
but I have two sealed units of that type -- different load capacities.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

According to Robert Nichols :
In article ,
DoN. Nichols wrote:

[ ... ]

: ================================================== ====================
:Flash Player 7 for Solaris
:Version 7.0.67.0
ecember 2006
: ================================================== ====================
:
:so only about 3/4 of a year old, yet two major version numbers lower.
:It seems that they take longer to get a given version out for the SPARC
latform than for the Intel platform.

[ ... ]

version now. I had a similar problem for a while because no Linux
version of Flash Player 8 was ever released. Linux users had to wait
for version 9.

O.K.

According to
http://www.adobe.com/products/flashp...fo/systemreqs/
there is a Flash Player 9 available for Solaris 10.

Thanks. I've just downloaded it, and have yet to install it.

Enjoy,
DoN.
--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

According to Steve Ackman :
In , on 24 Sep 2007 01:10:00 GMT, DoN.
Nichols, wrote:

[ ... ]

Can anyone tell me what brand of battery is being disassembled
in the video?

First video: 6v - 32 AA
http://wizard.dyndns.org/cell.png

Second video: 12v A23 - 8 buttons

Third video: 6v - 4 F
http://wizard.dyndns.org/6v-4F.png

Thanks!
DoN.
--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On 26 Sep 2007 21:14:28 GMT, (DoN. Nichols)
wrote:

According to lew hartswick :

[ ... ]

Anything else you would like to know about vibrator power supplies?

Well ... something else to *add*. The typical automotive
vibrator ran somewhere near 60 Hz (since there were lots of 60Hz
transformers around), but I had (and may still have somewhere) a special
vibrator and matching transformer which had the reed weighted to lower
the frequency to 20 Hz, and it was used to generate the ring signal for
small telephone exchanges -- from before the Sub-Cycle passive devices
to do the same thing by dividing the 60 Hz power line frequency by
three. (I never have been able to find out exactly how they did that,
but I have two sealed units of that type -- different load capacities.

Enjoy,
DoN.
I remember the vibrators being something like 255 hz. High frequency
is easier to filter, and works just fine on lower frequency
transformers.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

According to clarence at snyder dot on dot ca:
On 26 Sep 2007 21:14:28 GMT, (DoN. Nichols)
wrote:

[ ... ]

Well ... something else to *add*. The typical automotive
vibrator ran somewhere near 60 Hz (since there were lots of 60Hz
transformers around), but I had (and may still have somewhere) a special
vibrator and matching transformer which had the reed weighted to lower
the frequency to 20 Hz, and it was used to generate the ring signal for
small telephone exchanges -- from before the Sub-Cycle passive devices
to do the same thing by dividing the 60 Hz power line frequency by
three. (I never have been able to find out exactly how they did that,
but I have two sealed units of that type -- different load capacities.

Enjoy,
DoN.
I remember the vibrators being something like 255 hz. High frequency
is easier to filter, and works just fine on lower frequency
transformers.

O.K. I can accept that. I never bothered to check the
frequency (I didn't have a way to do so back when I had normal
vibrators. :-)

Enjoy,
DoN.
--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

"DoN. Nichols" wrote:

O.K. I can accept that. I never bothered to check the
frequency (I didn't have a way to do so back when I had normal
vibrators. :-)


No scope?


Someone scanned the Mallory vibrator data sheets and posted it on
alt.binaries.pictures.radio a while back. I saved the images to my hard
drive, but it must have been before the first of the year, and on my old
WIN ME computer that isn't available at the moment. There were several
frequencies, from 60 HZ, up The 60 HZ were common in ham radio and CB
gear, so you could use the same power transformer for AC or DC
operation. I think that a lot of car radio vibrators were 115 HZ, which
would cause about a little 230 HZ ripple. I'll see if I can find those
images. There are a lot of collectors on news:rec.antiques.radio+phono
if anyone has any serious questions, or needs help finding parts and
information on old radios.

--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

According to Michael A. Terrell :
"DoN. Nichols" wrote:

O.K. I can accept that. I never bothered to check the
frequency (I didn't have a way to do so back when I had normal
vibrators. :-)


No scope?

Not when I was playing with vibrators. Once I had a scope, I
had no vibrators left (except the 20 Hz one), nor any real interest.

Someone scanned the Mallory vibrator data sheets and posted it on
alt.binaries.pictures.radio a while back. I saved the images to my hard
drive, but it must have been before the first of the year, and on my old
WIN ME computer that isn't available at the moment. There were several
frequencies, from 60 HZ, up The 60 HZ were common in ham radio and CB
gear, so you could use the same power transformer for AC or DC
operation. I think that a lot of car radio vibrators were 115 HZ, which
would cause about a little 230 HZ ripple. I'll see if I can find those
images. There are a lot of collectors on news:rec.antiques.radio+phono
if anyone has any serious questions, or needs help finding parts and
information on old radios.

O.K. So I could have encountered 60 Hz ones. The ones which I
got all came from a surplus place in Cambridge Mass -- Eli's.

Enjoy,
DoN.
--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On Wed, 26 Sep 2007 21:17:01 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:

"DoN. Nichols" wrote:

O.K. I can accept that. I never bothered to check the
frequency (I didn't have a way to do so back when I had normal
vibrators. :-)


No scope?


Someone scanned the Mallory vibrator data sheets and posted it on
alt.binaries.pictures.radio a while back. I saved the images to my hard
drive, but it must have been before the first of the year, and on my old
WIN ME computer that isn't available at the moment. There were several
frequencies, from 60 HZ, up The 60 HZ were common in ham radio and CB
gear, so you could use the same power transformer for AC or DC
operation. I think that a lot of car radio vibrators were 115 HZ, which
would cause about a little 230 HZ ripple. I'll see if I can find those
images. There are a lot of collectors on news:rec.antiques.radio+phono
if anyone has any serious questions, or needs help finding parts and
information on old radios.


You are correct - it WAS 115hz, with a 230 hz ripple to filter out,
now that you mention it.

I used to put one on an ignition coil and hook the secondary to a foil
tape over a mylar tape on the bottom of the leading edge of the hood
of my old Valiants and Darts to keep curious fingers at bay. When the
hood came up 1/2" the leading edge was live. I forgot to turn it off
before checking the oil at least twice ---- Sure charged up the old
bateries!!!!!!!

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

clare at snyder.on.ca wrote:

On 26 Sep 2007 21:14:28 GMT, (DoN. Nichols)
wrote:


According to lew hartswick :

[ ... ]


Anything else you would like to know about vibrator power supplies?

Well ... something else to *add*. The typical automotive
vibrator ran somewhere near 60 Hz (since there were lots of 60Hz
transformers around), but I had (and may still have somewhere) a special
vibrator and matching transformer which had the reed weighted to lower
the frequency to 20 Hz, and it was used to generate the ring signal for
small telephone exchanges -- from before the Sub-Cycle passive devices
to do the same thing by dividing the 60 Hz power line frequency by
three. (I never have been able to find out exactly how they did that,
but I have two sealed units of that type -- different load capacities.

Enjoy,
DoN.

I remember the vibrators being something like 255 hz. High frequency
is easier to filter, and works just fine on lower frequency
transformers.


Pam anderson said that would be fine with her...

In article ,
(DoN. Nichols) wrote:

According to lew hartswick :

[ ... ]

Anything else you would like to know about vibrator power supplies?

Well ... something else to *add*. The typical automotive
vibrator ran somewhere near 60 Hz (since there were lots of 60Hz
transformers around), but I had (and may still have somewhere) a special
vibrator and matching transformer which had the reed weighted to lower
the frequency to 20 Hz, and it was used to generate the ring signal for
small telephone exchanges -- from before the Sub-Cycle passive devices
to do the same thing by dividing the 60 Hz power line frequency by
three. (I never have been able to find out exactly how they did that,
but I have two sealed units of that type -- different load capacities.

I recall reading about subharmonic convertors in a book on magnetic
amplifiers and the like.

Joe Gwinn

On Sep 26, 8:04 pm, clare at snyder.on.ca wrote:
On 26 Sep 2007 21:14:28 GMT, (DoN. Nichols)
wrote:





According to lew hartswick :

[ ... ]

Anything else you would like to know about vibrator power supplies?

Well ... something else to *add*. The typical automotive
vibrator ran somewhere near 60 Hz (since there were lots of 60Hz
transformers around), but I had (and may still have somewhere) a special
vibrator and matching transformer which had the reed weighted to lower
the frequency to 20 Hz, and it was used to generate the ring signal for
small telephone exchanges -- from before the Sub-Cycle passive devices
to do the same thing by dividing the 60 Hz power line frequency by
three. (I never have been able to find out exactly how they did that,
but I have two sealed units of that type -- different load capacities.

Don -
I didn't understand much of the telephone industry electronics
either :-). Possibly some weird trick with using ferromagnetics in
what is in fact a non-passive way. Were the converters by any chance
unusually heavy and dense, indicating a lot of iron? Oh, never mind,
everything done in the phone industry in those days was unusually
heavy and dense! Modern phones just feel so cheesy!

I remember the vibrators being something like 255 hz. High frequency
is easier to filter, and works just fine on lower frequency
transformers.

Indeed, most Mallory automotive/truck radio vibrators that I've seen
are rated for 230 Hz nominal. I think that was about the limit for the
mechanical construction used. Electrolytics were not as reliable or as
plentiful in those days as they are now, so anything that let them get
by with smaller filter capacitors was worthwhile.

There are higher frequency tuning-fork vibrators used for DC
instrument choppers... this was the 1960 timeframe. I think HP's (and
others) opto-choppers took over by the 70's.

Tim.