Black Dragon wrote:
You set the dial
and turn the knob,
for all the while
'cuz that's your job.

To twist and turn
yet another day,
For all you yearn
is a better way.

To school, to learn
if you'd only done,
now to twist and turn
is surely no fun.

For direction you see
you did not hanker,
of all things to be
you're a handle cranker.


I've got another:

Nataly Reed,

Untitled

Dirty work jeans, one pocket work shirt, steel-toed boots, denim apron
Quarters, eighths, sixteenths, thirty-seconds of an inch
Measured by the dual wheels of the lathe
Turn-twist turn-twist twist-turn
The tungsten carbide drill bit bites the cold rolled steel
Wisps of heat rise
Sending the scent of burning metal to my nostrils

I spend the summer days in the shade of the shop
Cool cement floors seep moisture
Iridescent coolant sprays
Sweep up tightly curled metal chips
Worse than any ordinary sliver
Outside the summer sun bakes the gravel
Watch the cars fly down 4-Mile Road
Five-thirty time
Wash hands with Borax
Put the helmet on
Ride behind dad on the motorcycle to home
I'm going to be a machinist, just like you.


Too bad many don't think this way.


--
Steve Walker
(remove wallet to reply)

"Steve Walker" wrote in message
news:mTguf.5$Uf7.1@trnddc01...
Black Dragon wrote:
You set the dial
and turn the knob,
for all the while
'cuz that's your job.

To twist and turn
yet another day,
For all you yearn is a better way.

To school, to learn
if you'd only done,
now to twist and turn
is surely no fun.

For direction you see
you did not hanker,
of all things to be
you're a handle cranker.


I've got another:

Nataly Reed,

Untitled

Dirty work jeans, one pocket work shirt, steel-toed boots, denim apron
Quarters, eighths, sixteenths, thirty-seconds of an inch
Measured by the dual wheels of the lathe
Turn-twist turn-twist twist-turn
The tungsten carbide drill bit bites the cold rolled steel
Wisps of heat rise
Sending the scent of burning metal to my nostrils

I spend the summer days in the shade of the shop
Cool cement floors seep moisture
Iridescent coolant sprays
Sweep up tightly curled metal chips
Worse than any ordinary sliver
Outside the summer sun bakes the gravel
Watch the cars fly down 4-Mile Road
Five-thirty time
Wash hands with Borax
Put the helmet on
Ride behind dad on the motorcycle to home
I'm going to be a machinist, just like you.


Too bad many don't think this way.

How can they, when it takes four people working OT to keep a fukn roof over
their heads, in many parts of the country.
And a fifth to pay the utilities...
Not a Dem/Repub issue, either.
More to do w/ gigantic corpirate cock on viagra, and the P4 chip.
ouchooocheeech... take it easy, willya??

Man, I just got a BP!! 1970 J2--wish I knew how to use it!!
Looks pretty, tho, just sittin there!
----------------------------
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll


--
Steve Walker
(remove wallet to reply)

per: Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll

How can they, when it takes four people working OT to keep a fukn roof over
their heads, in many parts of the country.
And a fifth to pay the utilities...
Not a Dem/Repub issue, either.

Sorry but I, and I imagine some others, might not agree.
The ENTIRE problem is exactly "a Dem/Repub issue".
The corporate slobs are doing exactly what the investors want: Make
the most money by all means possible.
It's the so called "Public servants", in who we place our trust, who
sell our collective birthright to the highest bidder.
This is so frequent and accepted it's a common joke.
I think this country would still be number one (#1), the way it used to
be, if it wasn't for these scumballs.
I hope I've now offended both red and blue sufficiently and I don't
give a ****.
(oops, did I say that out loud?)

dennis
in nca

rigger wrote:
per: Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll

How can they, when it takes four people working OT to keep a fukn roof over
their heads, in many parts of the country.
And a fifth to pay the utilities...
Not a Dem/Repub issue, either.

Sorry but I, and I imagine some others, might not agree.
The ENTIRE problem is exactly "a Dem/Repub issue".
The corporate slobs are doing exactly what the investors want: Make
the most money by all means possible.
It's the so called "Public servants", in who we place our trust, who
sell our collective birthright to the highest bidder.

snip


Collective birthright, my ass.

The most primitive economies are principally agricultural.

When they advance, they industrialize and begin manufacturing. For over
100 years various stages of industrialized economies were at the
forefront.

In the last 20+ years, it's gone past industrial, into the tech
economy. Now, tech is becoming commoditized - witness Intel's move this
week to become a consumer electronics company. COMDEX has gone under -
no one's interested in computers anymore.

The next evolution? Biotech.

Machinists crying about their "birthright" are no different than
farmers crying about theirs. The fact of the matter is, 150 years ago
90% of the nation's workforce was working in Ag, now it's 2% and
shrinking. Advances in tech have made it such and even still we produce
too much food. The same thing's been happening for a long time in
manufacturing and it will also happen in tech. Someday it'll happen to
biotech too.

There is no "birthright". The only thing we are guaranteed of is
change. Some adapt, some don't, some don't and cry about it. Like you.


thanks,

K. Gringioni.

K. Gringioni explains:

There is no "birthright". The only thing we are guaranteed of is
change. Some adapt, some don't, some don't and cry about it. Like you.
thanks,

Not knowing me you might be speaking of anyone who feels this way, and
of course it's your "birthright" to say so.
A birthright means you receive this right when you are "born" (or to a
lesser degree when you become a citizen). I feel you should enjoy
what's left of these rights while you still can because if enough
people like yourself defend the present (and changing) situation in
this country, I'll guarentee you you'll be changing your tune
eventually.
Why don't you give it a while as you study the past history and
freedoms of this country and see if your opinion changes?
Here's something I ran across once: "Remember: Even if you win the rat
race, you're still a rat." Is this what you mean by "Some adapt,"? If
so, go ahead and "adapt" and I'll try another method, previously used
as the gold standard although you may not know what I'm talking about.
Too bad.
Thanks to you as well.

dennis
in nca

On 2 Jan 2006 15:33:22 -0800, "rigger" wrote:

K. Gringioni explains:

There is no "birthright". The only thing we are guaranteed of is
change. Some adapt, some don't, some don't and cry about it. Like you.
thanks,

Not knowing me you might be speaking of anyone who feels this way, and
of course it's your "birthright" to say so.
A birthright means you receive this right when you are "born" (or to a
lesser degree when you become a citizen). I feel you should enjoy
what's left of these rights while you still can because if enough
people like yourself defend the present (and changing) situation in
this country, I'll guarentee you you'll be changing your tune
eventually.
Why don't you give it a while as you study the past history and
freedoms of this country and see if your opinion changes?
Here's something I ran across once: "Remember: Even if you win the rat
race, you're still a rat." Is this what you mean by "Some adapt,"? If
so, go ahead and "adapt" and I'll try another method, previously used
as the gold standard although you may not know what I'm talking about.
Too bad.
Thanks to you as well.

dennis
in nca

Lots of guys escaped the rat race. One Boeing machinist I know..30 yrs
in the trades..now makes medical parts in his garage, at his own speed
and does quite nicely.

Another one became a specialty landscaper and loves it.

Neither the Luddites, nor Buggy Whip Makers Local 231 had much effect
on change.

Now the surviving buggy whip makers sell em at HIGH dollars to the
equestrian crowd..and the S&M/BD group

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

On 2 Jan 2006 15:00:03 -0800, "kurgan"
wrote:
snip
The corporate slobs are doing exactly what the investors want: Make
the most money by all means possible.
snip
The investors better check their wallets (and their watches,
rings, etc.). Corporate management stopped declaring dividends
years ago. Ask GM, Ford, airlines, kmart, etc. etc. stockholders
how their shares are doing.

The corporations have been hijacked by the managers who are
riding off with the boodle bags crammed full.

One example of this is that when the defined benefit pension
funds must be shown at actual cost [i.e. projected liabilities
less current assets] rather than as an asset when some outrageous
return on the assets under management (9.5% anyone?) is assumed
General Motors Corporation has no stock holder equity. Takes
effect in 2006 I believe.

"Management" may have been lip-syncing the song the shareholders
wanted to hear, but that's all it was. More moonbeams, cobwebs
and derivatives.

"show me the money"

Uncle George

Can't disagree w/ this, but I also don't think it's
philosophically/humanistically responsible to essentially cite a kind of
economic/social Darwinism, and shrug it off with, Dat's Life...

This **** is being engineered, choreographed, albeit w/ our own oblivious
cooperation.
And maybe it is all, ultimately inevitable.

Indeed, wine is limited in proof cuz all the yeasties die, en masse, in
their own effing ****, at about 19%. A few protesting yeasts are not going
to change much by holding their own bladders.

Our fate is proly the same.

Betcha dint know you was paying alladat money for yeast ****, now, didja??
----------------------------
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll
"kurgan" wrote in message
ups.com...

rigger wrote:
per: Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll

How can they, when it takes four people working OT to keep a fukn roof
over
their heads, in many parts of the country.
And a fifth to pay the utilities...
Not a Dem/Repub issue, either.

Sorry but I, and I imagine some others, might not agree.
The ENTIRE problem is exactly "a Dem/Repub issue".
The corporate slobs are doing exactly what the investors want: Make
the most money by all means possible.
It's the so called "Public servants", in who we place our trust, who
sell our collective birthright to the highest bidder.

snip


Collective birthright, my ass.

The most primitive economies are principally agricultural.

When they advance, they industrialize and begin manufacturing. For over
100 years various stages of industrialized economies were at the
forefront.

In the last 20+ years, it's gone past industrial, into the tech
economy. Now, tech is becoming commoditized - witness Intel's move this
week to become a consumer electronics company. COMDEX has gone under -
no one's interested in computers anymore.

The next evolution? Biotech.

Machinists crying about their "birthright" are no different than
farmers crying about theirs. The fact of the matter is, 150 years ago
90% of the nation's workforce was working in Ag, now it's 2% and
shrinking. Advances in tech have made it such and even still we produce
too much food. The same thing's been happening for a long time in
manufacturing and it will also happen in tech. Someday it'll happen to
biotech too.

There is no "birthright". The only thing we are guaranteed of is
change. Some adapt, some don't, some don't and cry about it. Like you.


thanks,

K. Gringioni.

Uncle,

I shore wish I could unnerstand you!! I get the gist (financial PV'ing,
no?), but the details sound pretty intriguing, if you could spell them out.
Along w/ how they effing get away with it.
---------------------------
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll
"F. George McDuffee" wrote in message
...
On 2 Jan 2006 15:00:03 -0800, "kurgan"
wrote:
snip
The corporate slobs are doing exactly what the investors want: Make
the most money by all means possible.
snip
The investors better check their wallets (and their watches,
rings, etc.). Corporate management stopped declaring dividends
years ago. Ask GM, Ford, airlines, kmart, etc. etc. stockholders
how their shares are doing.

The corporations have been hijacked by the managers who are
riding off with the boodle bags crammed full.

One example of this is that when the defined benefit pension
funds must be shown at actual cost [i.e. projected liabilities
less current assets] rather than as an asset when some outrageous
return on the assets under management (9.5% anyone?) is assumed
General Motors Corporation has no stock holder equity. Takes
effect in 2006 I believe.

"Management" may have been lip-syncing the song the shareholders
wanted to hear, but that's all it was. More moonbeams, cobwebs
and derivatives.

"show me the money"

Uncle George

On Mon, 2 Jan 2006 19:45:49 -0500, "Proctologically Violated©®"
wrote:

Uncle,

I shore wish I could unnerstand you!! I get the gist (financial PV'ing,
no?), but the details sound pretty intriguing, if you could spell them out.
Along w/ how they effing get away with it.
---------------------------
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll
snip
Primary method [other than actual robbery] is by setting their
own wages.

Newest gimmick is called "grossing up" were the corporation pays
all federal, state, and local income/earning taxes so that a ceo
that makes $1,000,000 per year takes home $1,000,000 per year in
addition to the corporate provided apartments, etc. In many
cases where the benes are taxable such as private use of the
corporate jet, or country club memberships, the corporation picks
up the taxes on these also.

Outright robbery is becoming more frequent through self-dealing
with SPEs [special purpose entities] Multi-nationals are
particularly susceptible to this. "Official"
corporations/divisions at both ends of a transaction lose money
while a "ghost" corporation in a tax haven or money laundry,
owned/controled by management makes all the money.

One especially egregious example is the management team that ran
the corporation into chapter 11 now wants 15% of the stock of the
new corporation to be formed when the reorganized corporation is
discharged from bankruptcy. The original stockholders get zip.

Uncle George

According to Steve Walker :

[ ... ]

I've got another:

Nataly Reed,

Untitled

Dirty work jeans, one pocket work shirt, steel-toed boots, denim apron
Quarters, eighths, sixteenths, thirty-seconds of an inch
Measured by the dual wheels of the lathe

Hmm ... a rather old machine, to be calibrated in fractional
inches.

Turn-twist turn-twist twist-turn
The tungsten carbide drill bit bites the cold rolled steel

And used with carbide, at that.

However -- rather nice, overall.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On Mon, 02 Jan 2006 21:44:34 -0600, F. George McDuffee
wrote:

I shore wish I could unnerstand you!! I get the gist (financial PV'ing,
no?), but the details sound pretty intriguing, if you could spell them out.
Along w/ how they effing get away with it.
---------------------------
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll
snip


Primary method [other than actual robbery] is by setting their
own wages.

I recently read somewhere that here in Europe a corporation managers salary is
typical around 10 to 20 times larger than the average guy on the floor - in US
it's more like 400 times larger. Do you have any numbers, George?
--
- JN -

Proctologically Violated©® wrote:
Can't disagree w/ this, but I also don't think it's
philosophically/humanistically responsible to essentially cite a kind of
economic/social Darwinism, and shrug it off with, Dat's Life...

This **** is being engineered, choreographed, albeit w/ our own oblivious
cooperation.
And maybe it is all, ultimately inevitable.




Ya, it's inevitable, because if a society goes "conservative" and tries
to keep things the way they are, that society then, over time, will no
longer be able to compete with societies/economies that do change.

Your "social/economic Darwanism" is an apt term and I do think it holds
because it mimics nature.

Nature herself is cruel to the ones that cannot/will not adapt. Very
cruel.



thanks,

K. Gringioni.

Don't disagree w/ this either.
Mebbe the nitty-gritty is that we are simply a reprehensible species, and
iffin you don't like it, find another one!
Cats, mebbe?

It has always struck me that one of the pillars of economic theory, the
supply/demand curve, is actually a mathematical/analytic formulation of our
intrinsic willingness to extort each other--built right in to our effing
socio-economic foundation/model! What a plan...

Almost makes Cheney's becoming a billionaire off Iraq, Bloomberg's (mayor of
NYC) *buying* of the office as if he were shopping at Nordstrom's, and other
examples, seem OK.

Which is why I can only seek jobs where I can stand up all day....
----------------------------
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll
"kurgan" wrote in message
oups.com...

Proctologically Violated©® wrote:
Can't disagree w/ this, but I also don't think it's
philosophically/humanistically responsible to essentially cite a kind of
economic/social Darwinism, and shrug it off with, Dat's Life...

This **** is being engineered, choreographed, albeit w/ our own oblivious
cooperation.
And maybe it is all, ultimately inevitable.




Ya, it's inevitable, because if a society goes "conservative" and tries
to keep things the way they are, that society then, over time, will no
longer be able to compete with societies/economies that do change.

Your "social/economic Darwanism" is an apt term and I do think it holds
because it mimics nature.

Nature herself is cruel to the ones that cannot/will not adapt. Very
cruel.



thanks,

K. Gringioni.

On 2 Jan 2006 15:33:22 -0800, "rigger" wrote:

A birthright means you receive this right when you are "born"

Baby's first machinegun .....
--
Cliff

On Mon, 2 Jan 2006 19:43:58 -0500, "Proctologically Violated©®"
wrote:

Indeed, wine is limited in proof cuz all the yeasties die, en masse, in
their own effing ****, at about 19%.

http://beeradvocate.com/news/stories_read/501/
[
Sam Adams Utopias MMII & Samuel Adams Millennium
Brewed by the Boston Beer Co., Utopias currently holds the record as
the strongest beer in the world. It weighs in at 24 percent ABV and is
limited to 3,000 bottles that looked like mini, old-school, copper
brewing kettles. The beer was brewed with a slew of malts, hops and
maple syrup, then aged in port, scotch and cognac barrels.
]

They evolved a "super yeast" ....
--
Cliff

On 2 Jan 2006 23:36:44 -0800, "kurgan" wrote:

Your "social/economic Darwanism" is an apt term and I do think it holds
because it mimics nature.

Not a new term though various meanings exist.
--
Cliff

On Mon, 2 Jan 2006 19:20:39 -0500, "Proctologically Violated©®"
wrote:

To wit, eg::
There are more pharmaceutical lobbyists in DC than there are
Congresspeeple--500+.

DC has seen huge growth in the last 5 years.
The number of lobbyists as well as their donations
to a certain party & it's members has been a source of
amazement.
IIRC The size of the federal government (number of employees)
has about doubled as well. And they need things to do .....
--
Cliff

Local Austin singer/songwriter James McMurtry:

"We Can't Make it Here"

Vietnam Vet with a cardboard sign
Sitting there by the left turn line
Flag on the wheelchair flapping in the breeze
One leg missing, both hands free
No one's paying much mind to him
The V.A. budget's stretched so thin
And there's more comin' home from the Mideast war
We can't make it here anymore

That big ol' building was the textile mill
It fed our kids and it paid our bills
But they turned us out and they closed the doors
We can't make it here anymore

See all those pallets piled up on the loading dock
They're just gonna set there till they rot
'Cause there's nothing to ship, nothing to pack
Just busted concrete and rusted tracks
Empty storefronts around the square
There's a needle in the gutter and glass everywhere
You don't come down here 'less you're looking to score
We can't make it here anymore

The bar's still open but man it's slow
The tip jar's light and the register's low
The bartender don't have much to say
The regular crowd gets thinner each day

Some have maxed out all their credit cards
Some are working two jobs and living in cars
Minimum wage won't pay for a roof, won't pay for a drink
If you gotta have proof just try it yourself Mr. CEO
See how far 5.15 an hour will go
Take a part time job at one of your stores
Bet you can't make it here anymore

High school girl with a bourgeois dream
Just like the pictures in the magazine
She found on the floor of the laundromat
A woman with kids can forget all that
If she comes up pregnant what'll she do
Forget the career, forget about school
Can she live on faith? live on hope?
High on Jesus or hooked on dope
When it's way too late to just say no
You can't make it here anymore

Now I'm stocking shirts in the Wal-Mart store
Just like the ones we made before
'Cept this one came from Singapore
I guess we can't make it here anymore

Should I hate a people for the shade of their skin
Or the shape of their eyes or the shape I'm in
Should I hate 'em for having our jobs today
No I hate the men sent the jobs away
I can see them all now, they haunt my dreams
All lily white and squeaky clean
They've never known want, they'll never know need
Their sh@# don't stink and their kids won't bleed
Their kids won't bleed in the da$% little war
And we can't make it here anymore

Will work for food
Will die for oil
Will kill for power and to us the spoils
The billionaires get to pay less tax
The working poor get to fall through the cracks
Let 'em eat jellybeans let 'em eat cake
Let 'em eat sh$%, whatever it takes
They can join the Air Force, or join the Corps
If they can't make it here anymore

And that's how it is
That's what we got
If the president wants to admit it or not
You can read it in the paper
Read it on the wall
Hear it on the wind
If you're listening at all
Get out of that limo
Look us in the eye
Call us on the cell phone
Tell us all why

In Dayton, Ohio
Or Portland, Maine
Or a cotton gin out on the great high plains
That's done closed down along with the school
And the hospital and the swimming pool
Dust devils dance in the noonday heat
There's rats in the alley
And trash in the street
Gang graffiti on a boxcar door
We can't make it here anymore

Music and lyrics © 2004 by James McMurtry

On Tue, 03 Jan 2006 08:29:44 +0100, Jan Nielsen
wrote:

On Mon, 02 Jan 2006 21:44:34 -0600, F. George McDuffee
wrote:

I shore wish I could unnerstand you!! I get the gist (financial PV'ing,
no?), but the details sound pretty intriguing, if you could spell them out.
Along w/ how they effing get away with it.
---------------------------
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll
snip


Primary method [other than actual robbery] is by setting their
own wages.

I recently read somewhere that here in Europe a corporation managers salary is
typical around 10 to 20 times larger than the average guy on the floor - in US
it's more like 400 times larger. Do you have any numbers, George?
=========================
let the flames begin [data please]

There are many sources of data comparing executive and worker
compensation. Unfortunately, most of these are on/from the left
and thus are suspect [at least to me].

John C. Bogel founded and ran one of the largest mutual funds in
the United States [Vanguard Mutual Fund Group] before his
retirement, and his right-wing/fundy credentials appear
impeccable.

Mr. Bogel has written an entire book on how "management" has
hijacked most of the American corporations they have been hired
to operate and are diverting even more than 100% of the corporate
income to themselves. This is possible because they are not only
preempting the earnings but are also raiding their employees'
pension and 401k fund assets. This book is very current being
release in 2005.

For complete details see
Bogel, John C., "The Battle for the Soul of Capitalism" Yale
University Press, New Haven ISBN 0-300-10990-3 25$US at local
book stores, also from Amazon at a discount.

In response to your specific question (from page 17 in the
hardcover edition) for the S&P 500 corporations:
1980 CEO pay 42X the average [not median] worker's pay in their
organization
2000 CEO pay 531X the average worker's pay in their organization
2004 CEO pay 280X the average worker's pay in their organization

Note that the decrease from 2000 to 2004 was a drop in CEO pay
*REPORTED* in SEC filings not their W2 numbers. The IRS had
begun to disallow "excessive" CEO/executive compensation as a
business expense in this period. Several methods are being
successfully used to evade both the reporting requirements and
the cap. These include "grossing up" which means the corporation
pays the income and other taxes on the CEO/executive
compensation, and increasingly on taxable benefits/perks such as
private use of corporate jets, country club memberships, etc.
Thus, in [too] many cases we are comparing oranges and pumpkins.
While these may be both orange and more or less round, that is as
far as the similarity goes. Given that the reported worker pay
is their gross W2 wages before all deductions and the
CEO/executive pay is the net after all deductions (apparently
including medical and retirement) it is likely that there was no
reduction but a continuing increase.

Ignoring the question of fairness, most (c. 95%) of this money
was the shareholders' that should have been reinvested in new
products, facilities, etc, or [shudder] distributed as dividends.

I find it insulting that while management more and more attempts
to foist off "job enrichment" as compensation for increased
(unpaid) overtime and insurance deductions, they are unwilling to
enrich their own jobs and forego their clearly excessive raises
and bonuses. It is one thing to steal my money, it is another to
p**s on my leg and then assume you can convince me it is raining.

As King Louie the last and the Tsar discovered, reality always
wins in the end. I just hope to be out of the way of this
particular train wreck.

Uncle George

The mutha****a that gets these yeastie-beasties crankin to 100 proof (about
55% alc.) will become richer than Bill fuknGates in under a year.
IOW, no distillation required, ergo no tell-tale swampland stills!! Jes
filter out the dead yeasties, and keep their ****. And voila, drunk you be!
Plus caramel, artificial flavors/FDC colors as req'd.

Oh, and most likely sucrose, as Diabetic Merka proliferates. I mean,
somebody's gotta support the makers of all these bitty glucose widgets.
I daresay manageable diabetes is sort of chic these days, donchathink, what
w/ BB King and all his little whitebread blues-boy protoges'n'**** shooting
up, I mean, sticking themselves....
Ahm feelin so left out....

But indeed, that Sam Adams would seem to have some kick, bruh...
Ought to soon replace Old English 40s and Colt 45 in the g-dGhetto--bea.
----------------------------
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll
"Cliff" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 2 Jan 2006 19:43:58 -0500, "Proctologically Violated©®"
wrote:

Indeed, wine is limited in proof cuz all the yeasties die, en masse, in
their own effing ****, at about 19%.

http://beeradvocate.com/news/stories_read/501/
[
Sam Adams Utopias MMII & Samuel Adams Millennium
Brewed by the Boston Beer Co., Utopias currently holds the record as
the strongest beer in the world. It weighs in at 24 percent ABV and is
limited to 3,000 bottles that looked like mini, old-school, copper
brewing kettles. The beer was brewed with a slew of malts, hops and
maple syrup, then aged in port, scotch and cognac barrels.
]

They evolved a "super yeast" ....
--
Cliff

And a righteous doubling it is--after all, *someone's* gotta
watch/manage/choreograph/chronicle the ****ing of the m(asses).
Of course, errant CorPirate entities will get fined/sued/hunted down/shot
for ****ing the (m)asses incorectly, of course. There is such a thing as
Proctological Etiquette, you know, and violators will be themselves be
penetrated.
And we, like effing little assholes, applaud.
Help me--I've grabbed my ankles, and I cain't straighten up.... thank gawd
I got my little ADT Emergency whatsit....
----------------------------
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll
"Cliff" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 2 Jan 2006 19:20:39 -0500, "Proctologically Violated©®"
wrote:

To wit, eg::
There are more pharmaceutical lobbyists in DC than there are
Congresspeeple--500+.

DC has seen huge growth in the last 5 years.
The number of lobbyists as well as their donations
to a certain party & it's members has been a source of
amazement.
IIRC The size of the federal government (number of employees)
has about doubled as well. And they need things to do .....
--
Cliff

On Tue, 03 Jan 2006 10:22:16 -0600, F. George McDuffee
wrote:

On Tue, 03 Jan 2006 08:29:44 +0100, Jan Nielsen
wrote:

I recently read somewhere that here in Europe a corporation managers salary is
typical around 10 to 20 times larger than the average guy on the floor - in US
it's more like 400 times larger. Do you have any numbers, George?

In response to your specific question (from page 17 in the
hardcover edition) for the S&P 500 corporations:
1980 CEO pay 42X the average [not median] worker's pay in their
organization
2000 CEO pay 531X the average worker's pay in their organization
2004 CEO pay 280X the average worker's pay in their organization

No wonder hamei moved to China! Over there they get to watch a corrupt CEO
get a bullet through his spine now and then - instead of a golden handshake.
--
- JN -

F. George McDuffee wrote:

For complete details see
Bogel, John C., "The Battle for the Soul of Capitalism" Yale
University Press, New Haven ISBN 0-300-10990-3 25$US at local
book stores, also from Amazon at a discount.

In response to your specific question (from page 17 in the
hardcover edition) for the S&P 500 corporations:
1980 CEO pay 42X the average [not median] worker's pay in their
organization
2000 CEO pay 531X the average worker's pay in their organization
2004 CEO pay 280X the average worker's pay in their organization



The people who shouldn't put up with this is the shareholders.

The thing that makes the free market work is that work flows to the
most efficient producer. In the case of executive pay, the
cronyism/corruption that has resulted in those gross imbalances is not
a case of the free market at work. Those guys are all padding each
others' bank accounts, sitting on the board of one corporation and
voting for higher wages for their buddies while their buddies do the
same for them in the next one.

There needs to be some sort of regulation over board entanglements like
that. Not likely to happen, not in the age of Cheney-ism.


thanks,

K. Gringioni.

On 4 Jan 2006 08:24:53 -0800, "kurgan"
wrote:


F. George McDuffee wrote:

For complete details see
Bogel, John C., "The Battle for the Soul of Capitalism" Yale
University Press, New Haven ISBN 0-300-10990-3 25$US at local
book stores, also from Amazon at a discount.

In response to your specific question (from page 17 in the
hardcover edition) for the S&P 500 corporations:
1980 CEO pay 42X the average [not median] worker's pay in their
organization
2000 CEO pay 531X the average worker's pay in their organization
2004 CEO pay 280X the average worker's pay in their organization



The people who shouldn't put up with this is the shareholders.

The thing that makes the free market work is that work flows to the
most efficient producer. In the case of executive pay, the
cronyism/corruption that has resulted in those gross imbalances is not
a case of the free market at work. Those guys are all padding each
others' bank accounts, sitting on the board of one corporation and
voting for higher wages for their buddies while their buddies do the
same for them in the next one.

There needs to be some sort of regulation over board entanglements like
that. Not likely to happen, not in the age of Cheney-ism.


thanks,

K. Gringioni.
=========================
You are correct but this is the core of the problem. Under U.S.
and the state laws in which the corporations are incorporated the
shareholders have minimal rights. This has been reinforced by
what were sold to the gullible (like me -- so soon old -- so late
smart -- sigh ) as devices for protection against hostile
takeovers or green mail such as the "poison pill."

Even the mutual and retirement funds that own huge blocks of the
stock can't get executive salaries limited or other changes made
to prevent certain bankruptcy. The mutual funds aren't really
mutual but are owned by corporations [except Vanguard] with
boards of directors who know the people that set on other boards
..... The pension funds are either under control of the
corporation or are a corporation with boards of directors.
Governmental pension funds are controlled by appointees who were
appointed by the politicians who run for office with funds
collected from people on the boards of directors. anyone see a
pattern here?

This is the old old problem of the goose and the golden eggs. If
"management would have been content with 250X of their average
employees wages things could have gone on for a long time, but
they wanted the money up front and in doing so they are killing
the golden goose. In fairness it may be a situation that they
can see a massive probem ahead and are simply getting out with as
much as they can as soon as they can. Remember also that for
every CEO at 300X, there are several vicepresidents at 250X, a
comptroler or CFO at 225X, etc. etc.

Even if things don't go to doo-doo because of corporate financial
implosions, a almost surely fatal problem in the long run has
been created and exacerbated in that the policy makers and
functionaries are becoming an isolated social/economic class with
no internalization [gut feel] of the needs/wishes of the bulk of
the population. Historically this is a sure recipe for disaster
for everyone.

To get a change will take a huge disaster at which point it will
be too late.

Uncle George