"Kenneth" wrote in message

But you clearly equate "hitting" and "discipline."

You're right again. As an attention getter, you bet I do ... when it is
timely and appropriate.

Just don't you equate "hitting" with physical harm.

AAMOF, let me know if you're ever interested in putting your money where
your mouth is on that count.

A little scientific experiment, based on whether smacking the crap out of
someone for each smug attempt to spin words and meaning would stop the
behavior, would be highly pertinent to the discussion and provide some
insight you're missing.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/06/05

I'm not a link follower so I didn't click on the link but I just read that
artical and it had nothing to do with spanking. Who says if you spank your
kids you are not a warm andd affectionate parent? Of course your parenting
skillsor what ever you want to call them, is going to effect how your
children turn out in the long run. But I say again that artical had nothing
to do with spanking.

Deborah

"Alex" wrote in message news:fCvgf.23568
"well adjusted" is a right term and used in a right content.

Here is an article suggesting that if your kid needs spanking there is a
chance that
origin of that behavior is YOUR behavior:
http://www.brightsurf.com/news/headl...rticleID=20942

Warm, nurturing parents have well-adjusted adolescents
September 14, 2005

Although preadolescents and adolescents might think their parents hold no
sway over
them, a study published in the September/October issue of the journal Child
Development
finds just the opposite – early parenting style makes a big difference in
how a child
turns out.

Researchers from Arizona State University in Tempe evaluated 186 adolescents
three times
over a six-year period, once every two years from the time the children were
about 9 to
about age 13. They used parent and teacher reports to evaluate how well
adjusted the
children were in terms of aggression, antisocial and delinquent behavior,
and how well
the children were able to “self-regulate,” i.e., inhibit their behavior when
necessary
and control their emotions and behavior.

The researchers assessed the children’s self-regulation by measuring their
persistence
in completing a frustrating task (rather than cheating or giving up), along
with reports
from parents and teachers. Additionally, they observed the parents’ (mostly
mothers’)
warmth and positive emotions as they interacted with their child during each
of the
three assessments.

The researchers found that parenting, youths’ self-regulation, and youths’
adjustment
were generally related to each other within and across time. Additionally,
they found
evidence that parents who interacted warmly and positively with their
children at the
youngest age (the first assessment) had children who were relatively
self-regulated two
years later, and, in turn, exhibited fewer problem behaviors at the final
assessment.

“Our results are consistent with the view that parenting affects children’s
self-regulation and their overall adjustment,” said study author Nancy
Eisenberg, Ph.D.,
Regents’ professor of psychology at Arizona State University in Tempe.

“Thus, the quality of parent-child interactions in childhood seems to
foreshadow whether
young adolescents experience behavioral problems in adolescence, and this
relation
appears to be at least partly due to the fact that warm, positive parents
have children
who are well regulated,” she said.

“Because warm parenting seems to foster children’s self-regulation, it is
likely to
contribute to youths’ positive functioning in a variety of areas.”



Society for Research in Child Development

.. One of the little ****s in question is my nephew. His mother
has never laid a hand on him and he runs her life almost literally and
does
what he wants to when he wants to...all starting at about 8 years old and
is
now 14 or 15 (I don't give a **** about the little ****, nor does anyone
else
in the family after all the crap he's pulled over the years and his mother
snubbing her nose at *US* for trying to discipline him when we were
unfortunate enough to have had to babysit the little ****er). Dad and I
have
a running bet on the age he'll be when he first gets thrown in jail.


--

I'm curious if his mother attempts discipline of any kind?

"Alex" wrote in message
et...
There is a chance that your nephew has a chronic adjustment disorder.
Symptoms includes depression(very common) and in some cases conduct
disturbances(less
common)


That sounds to me like the tendency of our country to try and use medicine
instead of good parenting. I suspect the majority of kids diagnosed with ADD
or some other disorder don't need medicine nearly as much as they need to be
taught how to behave. Granted, I'm not a doctor or trained professional,
simply an opinionated observer.

One... He's six, and is a joy. He behaves as we would expect
a healthy child of his age to act, but is disciplined,
understands what is right and wrong, and is a happy, well
adjusted kid.

All the best,

Now that's special a perfect father to a perfect son.
So just what and the hell is a "well adjusted kid"? Adjusted to What?
Adjusted to You? Adjusted to the weather? Adjusted to the new dog?
You have a six year old boy who is well adjusted, knows right from
wrong, and is happy. I guess your job is done, time to send him off to
college.


That was a little overboard don't you think? Isn't it possible that he has
raised a child to the age of 6 that is well adjusted? Just because he
doesn't agree with our methods does not mean his methods don't work.

I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I'm up to my ears with kids that
mule and puke when in public, showing no respect for person or property.
Where the hell do you think that starts? Permissive parents that have
little to no interest in rearing children, permitting any kind of
activity,
in fear they might screw up the kid's mind if he/she had to learn
something
in the way of obedience and manners.

I think most parents love their children and want the best for them. In my
opinion there are 2 basic reasons that a parent does not discipline their
children. The first is that they were probably never taught how to raise
children from their parents. Many of my parenting skills were "caught" from
my parents. Those people that didn't have the benefit of learning from good
parents have their work cut out for them. The 2nd is our nations growing
tendency to be lazy. Good parenting is lots of hard work. Often otherwise
loving parents give up when they've had a hard day and they have to get up
from the couch once again to discipline junior for the 5th time that
evening.

I hate it when I see a child like you're referring to in the store. It makes
me want to walk over to the kid and give him a good swat, then smack the
parent for allowing it. It's not the kids fault for being a turd. It's the
parents.

"Alex" wrote in message
. net...
Harold,

what if you spanked a kid and he/she starts to behave even worse?
Never thought of that, ah?
You are a lucky parent if spanking works for your kid. Spanking DOESN'T
WORK FOR ALL

True, spanking doesn't work for all, but it does for MOST.

kids. I suggest that you you listen to professionals and try to follow
what they
recommend. If professional tells you not to spank then don't spank.

I suggest you listen to professionals that have raised good kids. Or, anyone
that has raised good kids.

BTW, I strongly recommend the book "Dare to Discipline" by Dr. Dobson.

"Swingman" wrote in message
...
"Kenneth" wrote in message

One might hope that the adults who advocate hitting children
have the opportunity to be hit by someone five times their
own weight.

Now that would be a lesson...

Yep ... I agree. It's a damn shame there's not someone around that size to
whack all the misbehaving adults in this culture who make the rest suffer
from their lack of discipline as children.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/06/05



As long as he's acting in my best interest, and making sure I know why I'm
being punished, I'm not afraid of that 1000 lb gorilla. You can be he
wouldn't have to tell me something twice.

wrote in message
news
On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 20:50:43 -0500, Kenneth
wrote:

On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 00:37:05 GMT, "Dave Lyon"
wrote:




One might hope that the adults who advocate hitting children
have the opportunity to be hit by someone five times their
own weight.

Now that would be a lesson...

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Just out of curiosity, how many kids do you have, and how do they act?


One... He's six, and is a joy. He behaves as we would expect
a healthy child of his age to act, but is disciplined,
understands what is right and wrong, and is a happy, well
adjusted kid.

All the best,

Now that's special a perfect father to a perfect son.
So just what and the hell is a "well adjusted kid"? Adjusted to What?
Adjusted to You? Adjusted to the weather? Adjusted to the new dog?
You have a six year old boy who is well adjusted, knows right from
wrong, and is happy. I guess your job is done, time to send him off to
college.



So...you're suggesting that because the kid hasn't been hit, something's
missing from his life? Clue: Some people are better than others at using
words, which is one thing that makes some parents, teachers, clergymen,
managers and political leaders better than others. If you think that every
child will need physical punishment, you're sorely misguided.

"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message oups.com...
I am interested in hearing your opinion on this subject.

TMT

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051121/...E0BHNlYwN0bWE-


Spanking children fuels aggression, anxiety By Megan Rauscher

damn, I thought this was going to be a fun subject, like spanking semi-clad women...

"technomaNge" wrote in message
news
Kenneth wrote:
On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 17:17:36 -0600, "Swingman"
wrote:
-------------------

One might hope that the adults who advocate hitting children
have the opportunity to be hit by someone five times their
own weight. Now that would be a lesson...

If that truly is your position and experience, when the opportunity
arises to meet you and your misbehaving children I will politely
refuse.

For some parents, the first response to misbehaving kids is a threat of
physical punishment, followed shortly thereafter by the actual deed. Do you
think this is something all parents should consider, or is it possible that
some parents are more capable of using words to get kids to understand the
rules?

Mebbe *for*tuitous.
He's responded at least twice, so far, and w/o a doubt w/ many more to
come--thoroughly convicted, absolute, and righteous, as well.
Don't tell me *you too* are becoming a pill??
Metal dust?
----------------------------
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll
"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
In article , Proctologically Violated©®
says...

Are we talking "regular" kids, or kids that wind up turning out like
Harold?

Well that was gratuitous. He hasn't even commented on this
thread. Plonk


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

I find generalizations such as "children whose parents are violent to
them behave better" to be not grounded in any facts and is rather
supported by wishful thinking.

i


There is a lot of intelligence in your post (including the part I snipped).

However, it appears as if you think spanking and violence are synonyms. They
are not.

"Ignoramus1487" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 16:34:14 GMT, Doug Kanter
wrote:
For some parents, the first response to misbehaving kids is a threat of
physical punishment, followed shortly thereafter by the actual deed. Do
you
think this is something all parents should consider, or is it possible
that
some parents are more capable of using words to get kids to understand
the
rules?

First, we have to understand that not all misbehavior is the same and
that it has causes. Often "misbehavior" is completely normal behavior
of the child who thinks that he is doing the right thing. Either
exploring or imitating adults.

For example, a boy is imitating mommy cooking and accidentally breaks
a glass.

Should he be violently beaten (spanked) for that? I think that it
would be quite stupid. All he needs is to be given a plastic cup.

Second cause of misbehavior is attention seeking. The remedy is not
violence against children, but actually paying them some attention
that they deserve.

The third cause is that they are tired or stressed out, and beating
them for being tired does not seem like a smart idea to me.

The third cause is that they learn that having tantrums and such helps
them get what they want. That is because parents taught them that it
is the case. The remedy is not punishing them but being firmer about
what's not allowed.

The tantrum thing is interesting. My ex-wife, a speech pathologist, has to
deal with little kids all day long. Her technique for tantrums worked
nicely: Quickly determine if there's a good reason for it (fatigue, problem
with sibling, etc). Usually, there's not. So, handle the kid as you would if
he were having a seizure. Put him somewhere safe and let the tantrum run its
course.

Later, she came across a fascinating article which suggested (per research)
that tantrums occur to some extent in all kids because a certain part of the
brain has not yet developed. Made sense.



Besides the fact that most instances of misbehavior are properly
addresses by looking at their causes, punishment is a valid concept
and is not reducable to spanking only.

There are numerous punishments that do not involve violence.

I find generalizations such as "children whose parents are violent to
them behave better" to be not grounded in any facts and is rather
supported by wishful thinking.

I had a neighbor who verbally abused his kids in public in the most vile
ways, and for reasons you and I would consider absurd. For instance, the son
was washing his dad's car one day, and working from the bottom up, which can
be a problem on a really filthy car because of the abrasive dirt that might
get transferred up higher as it clings to the sponge. The father stepped out
the front door, screamed obscenities, and called the kid all sorts of nasty
names. It was audible 10 houses away as we found out later. This sort of
thing went on all the time. The kids in that family are a total mess, and
according to the mom, there was no physical punishment.

That was a little overboard don't you think? Isn't it possible that he has
raised a child to the age of 6 that is well adjusted? Just because he
doesn't agree with our methods does not mean his methods don't work.

No Dave I think his spin on hitting was a bit overboard, don't you?
You have no idea of my methods, I haven't stated them.
Answer the question..what in the world is a well adjusted 6 year old
boy. What is he adjusted to?
I raised 3 they were all different. My sister has 5 kids, each is
different.
I what to know what is the standard or means by which you can tell if
a 6 year old is "well adjusted" or is heading for prison. Just where
do you get one of those yardsticks to measure how adjusted your kid
is. Do they give you one at Barns and Noble when you buy a "How to
Raise A Well Adjusted Child" Book.
Don't you think he is just a little bit overboard with his response to
Swingmans post? Don't think he was spinning at Swingmans expense.
Anyone who has raised a few kids knows firsthand that a label like
well adjusted is BS.
You can tell abused kids, ask any school counselor. The rest are just
kids. Parents with perfect well adjusted kids drive school
administrators nuts. Their kids are all innocent and its always the
other kids fault.

I have great kids, why? Their mine and I love them. Their perfect in
my eyes, their mistakes don't detract from their image.
Was I a good parent? What I consider to be the acid test, as teens and
adults they come to me for advise when they have problems. They know I
won't judge them with a label or standard like "well adjusted".

Well, Dave, you still don't know what my methods are. But maybe you
know what I think about pigeon hole labels like"well adjusted". Or
parents who apply them in an attempt to spin an argument to say that
their method is perfect and anything less is abuse and will result in
a child who is less then "well adjusted". That also applies to the
other side of the argument. The notion that you can't raise a great
kid without spanking them is BS too

PS Dave,
Unless you are going to apply your "over the top" standard to all
involved, just shut up. I'm a baby booming Spock child, I was never
spanked and was always told how great and well adjusted I was, as such
I have never experienced any real limits to my behavior. I impose my
own limits.

I think Ken owes Swingman an apology for his over the top spin. That's
what any "well adjusted" child would do. He can ask his 6 year old
for advise!
Whoops, there I go again, over the top.
Peace to you Dave:-]

"Ignoramus1487" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 17:09:56 GMT, Doug Kanter
wrote:

"Ignoramus1487" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 16:34:14 GMT, Doug Kanter

wrote:
For some parents, the first response to misbehaving kids is a threat of
physical punishment, followed shortly thereafter by the actual deed. Do
you
think this is something all parents should consider, or is it possible
that
some parents are more capable of using words to get kids to understand
the
rules?

First, we have to understand that not all misbehavior is the same and
that it has causes. Often "misbehavior" is completely normal behavior
of the child who thinks that he is doing the right thing. Either
exploring or imitating adults.

For example, a boy is imitating mommy cooking and accidentally breaks
a glass.

Should he be violently beaten (spanked) for that? I think that it
would be quite stupid. All he needs is to be given a plastic cup.

Second cause of misbehavior is attention seeking. The remedy is not
violence against children, but actually paying them some attention
that they deserve.

The third cause is that they are tired or stressed out, and beating
them for being tired does not seem like a smart idea to me.

The third cause is that they learn that having tantrums and such helps
them get what they want. That is because parents taught them that it
is the case. The remedy is not punishing them but being firmer about
what's not allowed.

The tantrum thing is interesting. My ex-wife, a speech pathologist, has
to
deal with little kids all day long. Her technique for tantrums worked
nicely: Quickly determine if there's a good reason for it (fatigue,
problem
with sibling, etc). Usually, there's not. So, handle the kid as you would
if
he were having a seizure. Put him somewhere safe and let the tantrum run
its
course.

Later, she came across a fascinating article which suggested (per
research)
that tantrums occur to some extent in all kids because a certain part of
the
brain has not yet developed. Made sense.

Interesting. I know some adults whose brains did not develop the
anti-tantrum centers...

Besides the fact that most instances of misbehavior are properly
addresses by looking at their causes, punishment is a valid concept
and is not reducable to spanking only.

There are numerous punishments that do not involve violence.

I find generalizations such as "children whose parents are violent to
them behave better" to be not grounded in any facts and is rather
supported by wishful thinking.

I had a neighbor who verbally abused his kids in public in the most vile
ways, and for reasons you and I would consider absurd. For instance, the
son
was washing his dad's car one day, and working from the bottom up, which
can
be a problem on a really filthy car because of the abrasive dirt that
might
get transferred up higher as it clings to the sponge. The father stepped
out
the front door, screamed obscenities, and called the kid all sorts of
nasty
names. It was audible 10 houses away as we found out later. This sort of
thing went on all the time. The kids in that family are a total mess, and
according to the mom, there was no physical punishment.

What a dumbass that guy is...

Yeah. I showed my son how to do it when he was 10. He said "OK. Like this?".
Then I called him a cool guy, and he's permanently damaged because of it.

Swingman wrote:

"Kenneth" wrote in message

One might hope that the adults who advocate hitting children
have the opportunity to be hit by someone five times their
own weight.

Now that would be a lesson...

Yep ... I agree. It's a damn shame there's not someone around that size to
whack all the misbehaving adults in this culture who make the rest suffer
from their lack of discipline as children.

Are you stupid or something? Are you related to Forrest Gump?

--
Ragheads - worthless pig **** eaters..
Illegal aliens - just as worthless as ragheads.

Swingman wrote:

I'm glad I can hide behind a computer and act a badass!

We're just glad you're behind the computer and not in public anywhere.

--
Ragheads - worthless pig **** eaters..
Illegal aliens - just as worthless as ragheads.

snip

damn, I thought this was going to be a fun subject, like spanking
semi-clad women...



Wishful thinking!
T

On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 16:32:09 -0000, "tg"
wrote:


"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message oups.com...
I am interested in hearing your opinion on this subject.

TMT

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051121/...E0BHNlYwN0bWE-


Spanking children fuels aggression, anxiety By Megan Rauscher

damn, I thought this was going to be a fun subject, like spanking semi-clad women...

You must be from the UK :-)

No Dave I think his spin on hitting was a bit overboard, don't you?

Yes, I do, but that wasn't really my point. Of course usenet has a way of
filtering out ones intent, but it seemed to me you were attacking him for
his views. It appeared to me that you didn't believe his child was well
behaved (I intentionally didn't use "well adjusted")

You have no idea of my methods, I haven't stated them.

True, I simply made an assumption based on my interpretation of your
reaction.

Answer the question..what in the world is a well adjusted 6 year old
boy. What is he adjusted to?
I raised 3 they were all different. My sister has 5 kids, each is
different.
I what to know what is the standard or means by which you can tell if
a 6 year old is "well adjusted" or is heading for prison. Just where
do you get one of those yardsticks to measure how adjusted your kid
is. Do they give you one at Barns and Noble when you buy a "How to
Raise A Well Adjusted Child" Book.

Sorry, I guess I can't answer that question. I can however give examples of
behavior that is unacceptable to me. It's quite possible that his yardstick
for "well adjusted" is different than mine, or yours.




Parents with perfect well adjusted kids drive school
administrators nuts. Their kids are all innocent and its always the
other kids fault.

I've met plenty of parents like that. Their yardstick is obviously different
than mine.


I have great kids, why? Their mine and I love them. Their perfect in
my eyes, their mistakes don't detract from their image.

I have great kids too, but they're not perfect even to me.


Was I a good parent? What I consider to be the acid test, as teens and
adults they come to me for advise when they have problems. They know I
won't judge them with a label or standard like "well adjusted".

Well, Dave, you still don't know what my methods are. But maybe you
know what I think about pigeon hole labels like"well adjusted". Or
parents who apply them in an attempt to spin an argument to say that
their method is perfect and anything less is abuse and will result in
a child who is less then "well adjusted". That also applies to the
other side of the argument. The notion that you can't raise a great
kid without spanking them is BS too

I think we agree for the most part. It just seems like you are a little
caught up on the term "well adjusted". I read that phrase as "my child acts
appropriately for his age and the situation". Perhaps my interpretation is
wrong.



PS Dave,
Unless you are going to apply your "over the top" standard to all
involved, just shut up. I'm a baby booming Spock child, I was never
spanked and was always told how great and well adjusted I was, as such
I have never experienced any real limits to my behavior. I impose my
own limits.

I'm simply stating my opinion. Others are welcome to their opinion, even if
they're wrong.

BTW, I think Spock is an idiot. What's your opinion? Do you feal like your
parents did a good job, or do you wish they had done something different?



I think Ken owes Swingman an apology for his over the top spin. That's
what any "well adjusted" child would do. He can ask his 6 year old
for advise!
Whoops, there I go again, over the top.

True, Ken was trying to spin his post, doesn't everybody?

Peace to you Dave:-]

Right back at ya.

Deborah ,

sorry, I should have been more clear what I meant. This article implies
that if you have "perfect" relations between your family members there
is a less likelihood of need to spank.

I had a neighbor who verbally abused his kids in public in the most vile
ways, and for reasons you and I would consider absurd. For instance, the son
was washing his dad's car one day, and working from the bottom up, which can
be a problem on a really filthy car because of the abrasive dirt that might
get transferred up higher as it clings to the sponge. The father stepped out
the front door, screamed obscenities, and called the kid all sorts of nasty
names. It was audible 10 houses away as we found out later. This sort of
thing went on all the time. The kids in that family are a total mess, and
according to the mom, there was no physical punishment.

And you never said a thing? At the very least I would have been
knocking on the door of the school counselor.
I had a neighbor who was in the habit of kicking his dogs, I called
the cops.He stopped. I would do the same for a child. I had a neighbor
who left her 8 year old home alone, I called the cops. She came
pounding on my door threatening to have me taken care of. Oh well.If I
thought there was abuse of any kind I would report it to someone. You
call the cops a few times when he is screaming and he would start
thinking. Cops don't like parents who abuse their children, neither do
I.

Peace to you, Dave

I second that "Dare to Discipline" by Dr. Dobson is good book.

Listening to anyone that has raised good kids is good but professionals
have accumulated knowledge of miliions of different cases and can give
you better advise.

Please also don't forget about cases when children in some absolutly
disfunctional families grew up to become great people. On the other
hand there are some terrible adults grew up in families with good
caring parents.
I don't want to sound to pessimistic but sometime times it's just not
up to us or anyone else to change some children behavior. The best
example of that is when in the same family you have one perfectly
behaving kid and one . Same parents, same enviroment, same evething and
completely different outcome.
Reading books on parenting, trying not to hurt your kid no matter how
angry you are and searching for professinal help if needed is in my
opinion the best strategy.

wrote in message
...


I had a neighbor who verbally abused his kids in public in the most vile
ways, and for reasons you and I would consider absurd. For instance, the
son
was washing his dad's car one day, and working from the bottom up, which
can
be a problem on a really filthy car because of the abrasive dirt that
might
get transferred up higher as it clings to the sponge. The father stepped
out
the front door, screamed obscenities, and called the kid all sorts of
nasty
names. It was audible 10 houses away as we found out later. This sort of
thing went on all the time. The kids in that family are a total mess, and
according to the mom, there was no physical punishment.

And you never said a thing? At the very least I would have been
knocking on the door of the school counselor.
I had a neighbor who was in the habit of kicking his dogs, I called
the cops.He stopped. I would do the same for a child. I had a neighbor
who left her 8 year old home alone, I called the cops. She came
pounding on my door threatening to have me taken care of. Oh well.If I
thought there was abuse of any kind I would report it to someone. You
call the cops a few times when he is screaming and he would start
thinking. Cops don't like parents who abuse their children, neither do
I.

Peace to you, Dave

Believe me, it was taken care of. But, it had been going on for years before
we moved to the street. The damage was done. The kids are 18-22 now, and in
therapy. The oldest has her own kids. Guess how she behaves toward them. The
exact same way.

Jerry,

crime rate is lowest now in 20-30 years. If I find statiscics I'll post
a link. Jail population big is due to a increased population.
In any case we shouldn't attribute changes in crime rate to a single
factor( like spanking)

Dave,

you kids are lucky to have such parents!
Everyone one participating in this thread must read it before posting
thier opinion on spanking.

"Ignoramus1487" wrote in message
...
What is wrong about leaving a 8 year old child home alone, provided
that the child is reasonably responsible.

i


Do you have kids?

On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 20:01:25 GMT, "Dave Lyon"
wrote:


Here's what I've learned about child discipline. The first thing to learn is
all kids are different. Sending my 6 year old to his room is a much better
punishment than sending my 15 year old to hers. While I believe that
spanking is an appropriate tool to use, it is not a cure all. Each child
should have discipline tailored to their personalities.

Dave,I consider this to be the single most important statement made in
this thread. My one son was never spanked, he had such a developed
sense of empathy and had a very hard time dealing with anyone he felt
was being treated unfairly. We could "talk to him". Its funny, we
thought he would grow up to be a minister. He joined the Marines.

Dave, peace to you.

Believe me, it was taken care of. But, it had been going on for years before
we moved to the street. The damage was done. The kids are 18-22 now, and in
therapy. The oldest has her own kids. Guess how she behaves toward them. The
exact same way.

Doug, when I was kid, there was a boy down the street whose dad was a
drunk. Every time he would put one on he would come home and beat that
kid bloody. I mean bad. He used belts, boards, whatever was handy.
This was in the late 50's and the police would do nothing. I wonder
what happened to him. That image has stuck with me all these years.
It was ugly.
That more then my parents example (it was good) influenced how I
disciplined my kids.I tried to always put their welfare first and
never let anger motivate my discipline.

"Ignoramus1487" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 18:27:39 GMT, Doug Kanter
wrote:

"Ignoramus1487" wrote in message
...
What is wrong about leaving a 8 year old child home alone, provided
that the child is reasonably responsible.

i


Do you have kids?

Yes, one. 4.5 yo.

i


Good. I assume you have the usual parental nightmares about what could
happen to a kid in a normal, well-maintained house, regardless of how
careful you are. Start writing them down. You'll have your answer.

The reason for my question is, I stayed home alone at about the age of
7 or so, it was customary where I grew up. Nothing terribly bad
happened and it was not particularly challenging.

The only thing that I did that was wrong was melting a lot of lead
(maybe at age 11 or so), I enjoyed lead casting and my mom would not
allow me to do it (quite wisely). So I did it when no one was
home. That was not good for me, I suppose.

You are joking, I suppose.

In article ,
wrote:


Believe me, it was taken care of. But, it had been going on for years before
we moved to the street. The damage was done. The kids are 18-22 now, and in
therapy. The oldest has her own kids. Guess how she behaves toward them. The
exact same way.

Doug, when I was kid, there was a boy down the street whose dad was a
drunk. Every time he would put one on he would come home and beat that
kid bloody. I mean bad. He used belts, boards, whatever was handy.
This was in the late 50's and the police would do nothing. I wonder
what happened to him. That image has stuck with me all these years.
It was ugly.

snip

I think I've told this story on the group before, but what the heck?

I was still in grade 6 or 7, living in a little area south of Pottery
Addition near Steubenville, OH.

One night somebody knocked at our door. There was a hushed conversation
at the door and my mother told me to go upstairs to my room. Being the
typically -- or maybe more than typically -- curious teenager, I of
course listened in on things via the heating ducts.

It turned out a neighbor girl of about 18 or so thought she had killed
her father. He'd trapped her by pushing their kitchen table into her,
catching her between the table and sink cabinet. She managed to get a
knife out of a drawer and thrust it at him across the table. He
collapsed and she ran out aimlessly in a panic, finally coming to our
door, maybe because she had done some babysitting for me and my sister
and thought my folks could help her.

I remember vividly her saying how she couldn't stand him forcing her to
his bed any longer and that she just grabbed the first weapon that came
to hand she could fend him off with. She said she didn't mean to hurt
him more than enough to get him away from her, but she didn't know how
badly he was hurt.

My folks called the sheriffs, who took the girl to their office after
checking her house and finding her father dead in the kitchen, lying on
the floor with about four inches of a big chef's knife in his chest. The
knife went far enough in to hit his heart. They said later that it
lookedlike he had more fallen across the table lunging for the girl and
fell on the knife more than she had thrust it into him. That may have
been just to spare her any more trauma. Who knows?

The girl's brother, sister, and mother backed up her story and in the
end she was never charged.

Turned out the Sheriff and Humane Officer had been watching the family
for some time, but had too little evidence to bring Child Welfare into
the situation or make an arrest themselves. They'd had reports and
rumors about how the old man was treating his family, but nothing solid
to take to court.

What really ticked me off, even that young, was some people in the
neighborhood considering her somehow defiled by having been repeatedly
raped by her drunken ******* of a father!

They soon moved away and I hoped the girl recovered as much as possible
and got a decent chance at life somewhere.

"Ignoramus1487" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 12:11:55 -0700,
wrote:


The reason for my question is, I stayed home alone at about the age of
7 or so, it was customary where I grew up. Nothing terribly bad
happened and it was not particularly challenging.

The only thing that I did that was wrong was melting a lot of lead
(maybe at age 11 or so), I enjoyed lead casting and my mom would not
allow me to do it (quite wisely). So I did it when no one was
home. That was not good for me, I suppose.

You are joking, I suppose.



No, I am not joking.

i
--


Hell, I used to get out my dad's mercury and play with it. He had about
four fluid ounces.

Nothing bad happened, luckily
luckily
luckily
luckily
(slap!)

sorry

Steve, and it is a true story.

The girl's brother, sister, and mother backed up her story and in the
end she was never charged.

The really sad part is that the mother continued to let it happen.
Why didn't she have the courage to stop the father?

chuck

Chuck Sherwood wrote:
The girl's brother, sister, and mother backed up her story and in the
end she was never charged.


The really sad part is that the mother continued to let it happen.
Why didn't she have the courage to stop the father?

Why wasn't she prosecuted as an accessory to capital sexual assault, or
something similar? She apparently failed to take steps necessary to
protect her daughter from serious harm.

Jeff

writes:


The reason for my question is, I stayed home alone at about the age of
7 or so, it was customary where I grew up. Nothing terribly bad
happened and it was not particularly challenging.

The only thing that I did that was wrong was melting a lot of lead
(maybe at age 11 or so), I enjoyed lead casting and my mom would not
allow me to do it (quite wisely). So I did it when no one was
home. That was not good for me, I suppose.

You are joking, I suppose.



When I was 11 I'd buy KNO3 and sulfer by the lb from the local
druggist. In those days, the pharmacist had barrels of
each in the basement. Add a little charcoal, voila!

Got my first rifle about then too.

Times sure have changed.

"Alex" wrote in message
oups.com...
Dave,

you kids are lucky to have such parents!


Thanks. I hope you're right. The bad part about parenting is that you really
don't know how good you've done until your kids are grown!

"Alex" writes:
Jerry,

crime rate is lowest now in 20-30 years. If I find statiscics I'll post
a link. Jail population big is due to a increased population.
In any case we shouldn't attribute changes in crime rate to a single
factor( like spanking)


Fairly reliable research has identified Roe v. Wade as a large
contributor to the decrease in the crime rate over the last
15 years or so.

http://www.prospect.org/print/V12/1/abramsky-s.html

In article et,
Jeff McCann wrote:

Chuck Sherwood wrote:
The girl's brother, sister, and mother backed up her story and in the
end she was never charged.


The really sad part is that the mother continued to let it happen.
Why didn't she have the courage to stop the father?

Why wasn't she prosecuted as an accessory to capital sexual assault, or
something similar? She apparently failed to take steps necessary to
protect her daughter from serious harm.

Jeff

Sheesh, how would I know? I was 13-14? It was (good/bad) luck and
teenage busybodyism I found out as much as I did.

(Pure speculation below)

Maybe the mother was beaten and browbeaten into outright submission.
Things were much different in the late 50s/early 60s in Steubenville.
There wasn't much "interference" with family doings in those days in
that place unless something like that happened. Even the police didn't
do much about domestic violence except maybe hit 'em with Disturbing the
Peace or somesuch.

Failed to take the steps? Certainly. But was she even psychologically
able to take the steps, given the near total domination her husband
exercised? Many women who were married in the 30s/40s were raised with
an attitude that the man of the house could do no wrong. He was
virtually a god in some societies. They didn't even have a phone and she
might have been terrified to leave the house without permission.

If the kids talked, they might have paid dearly for it. Father knows
best wasn't a Robert Young TV show to some older generation families.

I don't want to get into a ****ing match here, but that kind of attitude
prevailed far longer than we in this time might think possible.