I am interested in hearing your opinion on this subject.

TMT

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051121/...E0BHNlYwN0bWE-


Spanking children fuels aggression, anxiety By Megan Rauscher

Children who are spanked when they misbehave are more likely to be
anxious and aggressive than children who are disciplined in nonphysical
ways, research shows. This is true even if spanking is the "cultural
norm."

Whether parents should spank their children or use other forms of
physical discipline is controversial. Some experts argue that children
should not be spanked when they act out citing evidence that it leads
to more, rather than fewer, behavior problems and it could escalate
into physical abuse. There are data to support this argument.

Other experts, however, argue that the effects of spanking and physical
discipline might depend on the characteristics of the child and family
and the circumstances in which it is used.

To investigate the latter theory, researchers from questioned 336
mothers and their children in China, India, Italy, Kenya, the
Philippines, and Thailand about cultural norms surrounding use of
physical discipline and how it affected their children's behavior.

Jennifer Lansford, a research scientist from the Center for Child and
Family Policy at Duke University spearheaded the survey. She told
Reuters Health that "across the six countries studied, children who
were physically disciplined more frequently were more aggressive and
anxious than were children who were physically disciplined less
frequently."

"However, in countries where the use of physical discipline was more
common, being physically disciplined more frequently was not related as
strongly to aggression and anxiety as it was in countries where
physical discipline was less frequently used," she said.

Not surprisingly, in Thailand, a country where peace-promoting Buddhist
teachings predominant, moms were least likely to spank their children
or use other forms of physical discipline.

In Kenya, on the other hand, where use of physical discipline is common
and considered normal for the most part, moms were most likely to spank
or engage in similar disciplinary tactics. In a study conducted in
Kenya in 2003, 57 percent of grandmothers reported caning, pinching,
slapping, tying with a rope, hitting, beating, and kicking as forms of
discipline they had used on their grandchildren.

One question the findings raise, according to Lansford, is whether
being physically disciplined more frequently causes an increase in
aggression and anxiety or whether children who are already aggressive
and anxious are simply physically disciplined more often. "On the basis
of other work conducted in the United States, the answer is probably
some of each," Lansford said.

"Another question is whether physical discipline is appropriate in this
day and age, regardless of how accepted it may be," she added.

SOURCE: Child Development, November/December 2005

Too_Many_Tools wrote:

snip

To investigate the latter theory, researchers from questioned 336
mothers and their children in China, India, Italy, Kenya, the
Philippines, and Thailand about cultural norms surrounding use of
physical discipline and how it affected their children's behavior.

Anthropolotical studies have shown that if you just ASK this, people in
just about every culture will lie and say they don't use corporal
punishment. It is an excellent way to produce bogus data for liberal
propaganda, however.

Corporal punishment of misbehaving children is pan human.

Jennifer Lansford, a research scientist from the Center for Child and
Family Policy at Duke University spearheaded the survey.


I wouldn't call anyone a scientist who uses methods that are known to
produce bogus results. They are propagandists.

On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 11:08:50 -0800, the renowned Stuart Grey
wrote:

Too_Many_Tools wrote:

snip

To investigate the latter theory, researchers from questioned 336
mothers and their children in China, India, Italy, Kenya, the
Philippines, and Thailand about cultural norms surrounding use of
physical discipline and how it affected their children's behavior.

Anthropolotical studies have shown that if you just ASK this, people in
just about every culture will lie and say they don't use corporal
punishment. It is an excellent way to produce bogus data for liberal
propaganda, however.

Corporal punishment of misbehaving children is pan human.

Jennifer Lansford, a research scientist from the Center for Child and
Family Policy at Duke University spearheaded the survey.


I wouldn't call anyone a scientist who uses methods that are known to
produce bogus results. They are propagandists.


Does it prove that kids that are spanked act up more than kids who are
not, or that kids who act like little monsters are more likely to get
their bums paddled?

That's the problem with statistical analysis as opposed to using the
scientifically sound experiments with control groups etc. It is a heck
of a lot cheaper and easier to use statistics, but you can only show
correlation. Correlation does not prove causality.


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

"Spehro Pefhany" wrote in message
...

That's the problem with statistical analysis as opposed to using the
scientifically sound experiments with control groups etc. It is a heck
of a lot cheaper and easier to use statistics, but you can only show
correlation. Correlation does not prove causality.

You should hang around rec.boats a few times a week and listen to the
******s who say "Well...since we invaded Iraq, we haven't had any terrorist
attacks here, so the war must be working." It's enough to make you puke.

Doug Kanter wrote:

"Spehro Pefhany" wrote in message
.. .



That's the problem with statistical analysis as opposed to using the
scientifically sound experiments with control groups etc. It is a heck
of a lot cheaper and easier to use statistics, but you can only show
correlation. Correlation does not prove causality.



You should hang around rec.boats a few times a week and listen to the
******s who say "Well...since we invaded Iraq, we haven't had any terrorist
attacks here, so the war must be working." It's enough to make you puke.




Not meaning to spur debate in a dumb direction here but simply follow up
with "fewer people were killed in the US by terrorist attacks during
Clinton's watch so it PROVES Clinton did a better job of protecting the
US from terrorist than Bush and Billions on homeland security". It
makes as much sense as the argument that's making you fill the bucket

Koz (who is perfectly happy with those who argue opposite of his
left-wing pinko-commie leanings but HATES letting argumentative fallcies
slide)

"Koz" wrote in message
.. .


Doug Kanter wrote:

"Spehro Pefhany" wrote in message
. ..


That's the problem with statistical analysis as opposed to using the
scientifically sound experiments with control groups etc. It is a heck
of a lot cheaper and easier to use statistics, but you can only show
correlation. Correlation does not prove causality.


You should hang around rec.boats a few times a week and listen to the
******s who say "Well...since we invaded Iraq, we haven't had any
terrorist attacks here, so the war must be working." It's enough to make
you puke.


Not meaning to spur debate in a dumb direction here but simply follow up
with "fewer people were killed in the US by terrorist attacks during
Clinton's watch so it PROVES Clinton did a better job of protecting the US
from terrorist than Bush and Billions on homeland security". It makes as
much sense as the argument that's making you fill the bucket

Koz (who is perfectly happy with those who argue opposite of his left-wing
pinko-commie leanings but HATES letting argumentative fallcies slide)


Also during Clinton's reign, I didn't smash my toe on the coffee table, not
even once, so obviously, we were safer. On the other hand, I sliced the
phuque out of my finger last week with a scary-sharp kitchen knife.

OK, I haven't been fished lately.


After having 4 kids, I think I've learned a little about discipline. My
first two received spankings as needed. They are very well adjusted, good
kids (13 and 15 years old). My third child did not respond to spanking at
all. In fact, I'm at wits end trying to come up with a suitable punishment
for her (9 years old). I believe that I'm starting to learn that she
responds much better to positive reinforcement. My forth child has nearly
never been spanked. Usually a stern lecture is all he needs (6 years old).

Here's what I've learned about child discipline. The first thing to learn is
all kids are different. Sending my 6 year old to his room is a much better
punishment than sending my 15 year old to hers. While I believe that
spanking is an appropriate tool to use, it is not a cure all. Each child
should have discipline tailored to their personalities.
The most important thing that I've learned is that consistency is the key.
If you say a child will be punished for a particular action, make sure they
are punished for that action every time. Multiple warnings are not being
kind to your children, they are confusing to them.


When we had our first child EVERYBODY was giving us advice on the proper way
to raise them. Often that advice contradicted what somebody else said. We
nearly went crazy trying to figure out who to listen to until we came up
with this simple formula.
1) If the advice giver doesn't have children, throw out their advice
regardless of how much education they have.
2) If they have kids, but you don't like the way their children behave,
throw out their advice too.
3) If they have kids, their kids are well behaved, but not fully grown,
consider what they have to say.
4) If they have grown children, and you respect those children, don't wait
for advice, seek it out from those people.


"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
oups.com...
I am interested in hearing your opinion on this subject.

TMT


http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051121/...E0BHNlYwN0bWE-


Spanking children fuels aggression, anxiety By Megan Rauscher

Children who are spanked when they misbehave are more likely to be
anxious and aggressive than children who are disciplined in nonphysical
ways, research shows. This is true even if spanking is the "cultural
norm."

Whether parents should spank their children or use other forms of
physical discipline is controversial. Some experts argue that children
should not be spanked when they act out citing evidence that it leads
to more, rather than fewer, behavior problems and it could escalate
into physical abuse. There are data to support this argument.

Other experts, however, argue that the effects of spanking and physical
discipline might depend on the characteristics of the child and family
and the circumstances in which it is used.

To investigate the latter theory, researchers from questioned 336
mothers and their children in China, India, Italy, Kenya, the
Philippines, and Thailand about cultural norms surrounding use of
physical discipline and how it affected their children's behavior.

Jennifer Lansford, a research scientist from the Center for Child and
Family Policy at Duke University spearheaded the survey. She told
Reuters Health that "across the six countries studied, children who
were physically disciplined more frequently were more aggressive and
anxious than were children who were physically disciplined less
frequently."

"However, in countries where the use of physical discipline was more
common, being physically disciplined more frequently was not related as
strongly to aggression and anxiety as it was in countries where
physical discipline was less frequently used," she said.

Not surprisingly, in Thailand, a country where peace-promoting Buddhist
teachings predominant, moms were least likely to spank their children
or use other forms of physical discipline.

In Kenya, on the other hand, where use of physical discipline is common
and considered normal for the most part, moms were most likely to spank
or engage in similar disciplinary tactics. In a study conducted in
Kenya in 2003, 57 percent of grandmothers reported caning, pinching,
slapping, tying with a rope, hitting, beating, and kicking as forms of
discipline they had used on their grandchildren.

One question the findings raise, according to Lansford, is whether
being physically disciplined more frequently causes an increase in
aggression and anxiety or whether children who are already aggressive
and anxious are simply physically disciplined more often. "On the basis
of other work conducted in the United States, the answer is probably
some of each," Lansford said.

"Another question is whether physical discipline is appropriate in this
day and age, regardless of how accepted it may be," she added.

SOURCE: Child Development, November/December 2005

"until we came up with this simple formula.
1) If the advice giver doesn't have children, throw out their advice
regardless of how much education they have.
2) If they have kids, but you don't like the way their children behave,

throw out their advice too.
3) If they have kids, their kids are well behaved, but not fully grown,

consider what they have to say.
4) If they have grown children, and you respect those children, don't
wait
for advice, seek it out from those people. "

Good approach....

TMT

Good advice with that formula....I hate it when people who don't have kids
tell me how I should raise mine....lol

as for spanking when they do something really bad yes they do get spanked
and we explain to them why we are spanking them....most the time they get
sent to their room though....

My siblings and I did have physical disciplene growing up and we are not
really agressive or anxious. A study like that can not show conclusive
results because it is based on what people say and people do lie and 'more
frequently' and 'less frequently' are very subjective terms and vary widely
in interpatation.

Deborah

"Dave Lyon" wrote in message
newsIpgf.590447$xm3.493640@attbi_s21...
OK, I haven't been fished lately.


After having 4 kids, I think I've learned a little about discipline. My
first two received spankings as needed. They are very well adjusted, good
kids (13 and 15 years old). My third child did not respond to spanking at
all. In fact, I'm at wits end trying to come up with a suitable punishment
for her (9 years old). I believe that I'm starting to learn that she
responds much better to positive reinforcement. My forth child has nearly
never been spanked. Usually a stern lecture is all he needs (6 years old).

Here's what I've learned about child discipline. The first thing to learn
is
all kids are different. Sending my 6 year old to his room is a much better
punishment than sending my 15 year old to hers. While I believe that
spanking is an appropriate tool to use, it is not a cure all. Each child
should have discipline tailored to their personalities.
The most important thing that I've learned is that consistency is the key.
If you say a child will be punished for a particular action, make sure
they
are punished for that action every time. Multiple warnings are not being
kind to your children, they are confusing to them.


When we had our first child EVERYBODY was giving us advice on the proper
way
to raise them. Often that advice contradicted what somebody else said. We
nearly went crazy trying to figure out who to listen to until we came up
with this simple formula.
1) If the advice giver doesn't have children, throw out their advice
regardless of how much education they have.
2) If they have kids, but you don't like the way their children behave,
throw out their advice too.
3) If they have kids, their kids are well behaved, but not fully grown,
consider what they have to say.
4) If they have grown children, and you respect those children, don't wait
for advice, seek it out from those people.

Dave,

you kids are lucky to have such parents!
Everyone one participating in this thread must read it before posting
thier opinion on spanking.

"Alex" wrote in message
oups.com...
Dave,

you kids are lucky to have such parents!


Thanks. I hope you're right. The bad part about parenting is that you really
don't know how good you've done until your kids are grown!

In article WYLgf.593066$xm3.147384@attbi_s21,
says...

"Alex" wrote in message
oups.com...
Dave,

you kids are lucky to have such parents!


Thanks. I hope you're right. The bad part about parenting is that you really
don't know how good you've done until your kids are grown!


Not necessarily. I've encountered parents who did a
bad job in either direction.

One set was criminally abusive and neglectful. We're
talking violence as entertainment. They ended up with
seriously damaged young adult offspring. And yet were
convinced that they (the parents) were just sweet and
nice, and acted confused about why those nasty,
ungrateful brats turned out so pathetic in two cases,
and hateful/negative in the other case.

The other set was weak and spoiled their kid. Zero
discipline or enforcement of rules, limits, or
consideration for others. They ended up with a vicious
sociopath/habitual-criminal adult offspring. And yet
were convinced that they (the parents) were smart and
skilled, and acted confused about why the big, bad
society/other-people had caused their sweet baby to
have such conflicts.

Parents are accountable and responsible when they
produce nice, happy, well-behaved adult offspring. But
the accountability and responsibility disappears or
shifts when the ultimate parenting result (I.e. that
young adult) turns out negatively.


--
Get Credit Where Credit Is Due
http://www.cardreport.com/
Credit Tools, Reference, and Forum

On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 20:01:25 GMT, "Dave Lyon"
wrote:


Here's what I've learned about child discipline. The first thing to learn is
all kids are different. Sending my 6 year old to his room is a much better
punishment than sending my 15 year old to hers. While I believe that
spanking is an appropriate tool to use, it is not a cure all. Each child
should have discipline tailored to their personalities.

Dave,I consider this to be the single most important statement made in
this thread. My one son was never spanked, he had such a developed
sense of empathy and had a very hard time dealing with anyone he felt
was being treated unfairly. We could "talk to him". Its funny, we
thought he would grow up to be a minister. He joined the Marines.

Dave, peace to you.

Are we talking "regular" kids, or kids that wind up turning out like Harold?
----------------------------
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll
"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
oups.com...
I am interested in hearing your opinion on this subject.

TMT

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051121/...E0BHNlYwN0bWE-


Spanking children fuels aggression, anxiety By Megan Rauscher

Children who are spanked when they misbehave are more likely to be
anxious and aggressive than children who are disciplined in nonphysical
ways, research shows. This is true even if spanking is the "cultural
norm."

Whether parents should spank their children or use other forms of
physical discipline is controversial. Some experts argue that children
should not be spanked when they act out citing evidence that it leads
to more, rather than fewer, behavior problems and it could escalate
into physical abuse. There are data to support this argument.

Other experts, however, argue that the effects of spanking and physical
discipline might depend on the characteristics of the child and family
and the circumstances in which it is used.

To investigate the latter theory, researchers from questioned 336
mothers and their children in China, India, Italy, Kenya, the
Philippines, and Thailand about cultural norms surrounding use of
physical discipline and how it affected their children's behavior.

Jennifer Lansford, a research scientist from the Center for Child and
Family Policy at Duke University spearheaded the survey. She told
Reuters Health that "across the six countries studied, children who
were physically disciplined more frequently were more aggressive and
anxious than were children who were physically disciplined less
frequently."

"However, in countries where the use of physical discipline was more
common, being physically disciplined more frequently was not related as
strongly to aggression and anxiety as it was in countries where
physical discipline was less frequently used," she said.

Not surprisingly, in Thailand, a country where peace-promoting Buddhist
teachings predominant, moms were least likely to spank their children
or use other forms of physical discipline.

In Kenya, on the other hand, where use of physical discipline is common
and considered normal for the most part, moms were most likely to spank
or engage in similar disciplinary tactics. In a study conducted in
Kenya in 2003, 57 percent of grandmothers reported caning, pinching,
slapping, tying with a rope, hitting, beating, and kicking as forms of
discipline they had used on their grandchildren.

One question the findings raise, according to Lansford, is whether
being physically disciplined more frequently causes an increase in
aggression and anxiety or whether children who are already aggressive
and anxious are simply physically disciplined more often. "On the basis
of other work conducted in the United States, the answer is probably
some of each," Lansford said.

"Another question is whether physical discipline is appropriate in this
day and age, regardless of how accepted it may be," she added.

SOURCE: Child Development, November/December 2005

In article , Proctologically Violated©® says...

Are we talking "regular" kids, or kids that wind up turning out like Harold?

Well that was gratuitous. He hasn't even commented on this
thread. Plonk


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

Mebbe *for*tuitous.
He's responded at least twice, so far, and w/o a doubt w/ many more to
come--thoroughly convicted, absolute, and righteous, as well.
Don't tell me *you too* are becoming a pill??
Metal dust?
----------------------------
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll
"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
In article , Proctologically Violated©®
says...

Are we talking "regular" kids, or kids that wind up turning out like
Harold?

Well that was gratuitous. He hasn't even commented on this
thread. Plonk


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
oups.com...
I am interested in hearing your opinion on this subject.

TMT


http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051121/...dc&printer=1;_
ylt=Asb2X4U9cR199hYC.3SIFvsR.3QA;_ylu=X3oDMTA3MXN1 bHE0BHNlYwN0bWE-


Spanking children fuels aggression, anxiety By Megan Rauscher

snip

Just my two cents worth. I don't have kids and wouldn't presume to tell
parents what to do, but I am capable of observing when what parents do
doesn't seem to work.

When I was a kid, kids got spanked. But spanking fell out of favor when I
was a young adult (the age when I would have had kids, if I had...). Now,
most crime is committed by males between the ages of 15 and 35. If you
compare the numbers in jails and prisons when I (and my compadres ) were in
our "peak crime-committing" years and the prison population today, well,
you have to wonder...

Jerry

"Jerry Foster" wrote:
Just my two cents worth. I don't have kids and wouldn't presume to tell
parents what to do, but I am capable of observing when what parents do
doesn't seem to work.

When I was a kid, kids got spanked. But spanking fell out of favor when I
was a young adult (the age when I would have had kids, if I had...). Now,
most crime is committed by males between the ages of 15 and 35. If you
compare the numbers in jails and prisons when I (and my compadres ) were
in
our "peak crime-committing" years and the prison population today, well,
you have to wonder...

When I got spanked as a child, it wasn't the physical pain that hurt, it was
knowing that I messed up badly enough to warrant getting turned up over the
knee that hurt. The knowing that I had stepped so far out of the bounds of
behavior that I was upside down being hit on the ass is a powerful thing,
and it is that knowing that some children need to experience, if only a few
times.

Consider it the "instant karma" approach. When it is necessary, it should
be used, and not disregarded as cruel.

Jon

Jerry Foster wrote:
"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
oups.com...
I am interested in hearing your opinion on this subject.

TMT


http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051121/...dc&printer=1;_
ylt=Asb2X4U9cR199hYC.3SIFvsR.3QA;_ylu=X3oDMTA3MXN1 bHE0BHNlYwN0bWE-


Spanking children fuels aggression, anxiety By Megan Rauscher

snip

Just my two cents worth. I don't have kids and wouldn't presume to tell
parents what to do, but I am capable of observing when what parents do
doesn't seem to work.

When I was a kid, kids got spanked. But spanking fell out of favor when I
was a young adult (the age when I would have had kids, if I had...). Now,
most crime is committed by males between the ages of 15 and 35. If you
compare the numbers in jails and prisons when I (and my compadres ) were in
our "peak crime-committing" years and the prison population today, well,
you have to wonder...

Most crimes have always been committed by males between 15 and 35. Our
declining crime rate merely reflects our changing demographics.
Child-rearing norms and the posturing of politicians has little or
nothing to do with it. I have some family members who spanked their
kids, and others who didn't. But all were loving, responsible, mature,
well-educated parents, and their kids all turned out just fine.

Jeff

Jerry Foster wrote:
"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
oups.com...
I am interested in hearing your opinion on this subject.

TMT


http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051121/...dc&printer=1;_
ylt=Asb2X4U9cR199hYC.3SIFvsR.3QA;_ylu=X3oDMTA3MXN1 bHE0BHNlYwN0bWE-


Spanking children fuels aggression, anxiety By Megan Rauscher

snip

Just my two cents worth. I don't have kids and wouldn't presume to tell
parents what to do, but I am capable of observing when what parents do
doesn't seem to work.

When I was a kid, kids got spanked. But spanking fell out of favor when I
was a young adult (the age when I would have had kids, if I had...). Now,
most crime is committed by males between the ages of 15 and 35. If you
compare the numbers in jails and prisons when I (and my compadres ) were in
our "peak crime-committing" years and the prison population today, well,
you have to wonder...

Most crimes have always been committed by males between 15 and 35. Our
declining crime rate merely reflects our changing demographics.
Child-rearing norms and the posturing of politicians has little or
nothing to do with it. I have some family members who spanked their
kids, and others who didn't. But all were loving, responsible, mature,
well-educated parents, and their kids all turned out just fine.

Jeff

Jerry Foster wrote:
"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
oups.com...
I am interested in hearing your opinion on this subject.

TMT


http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051121/...dc&printer=1;_
ylt=Asb2X4U9cR199hYC.3SIFvsR.3QA;_ylu=X3oDMTA3MXN1 bHE0BHNlYwN0bWE-


Spanking children fuels aggression, anxiety By Megan Rauscher

snip

Just my two cents worth. I don't have kids and wouldn't presume to tell
parents what to do, but I am capable of observing when what parents do
doesn't seem to work.

When I was a kid, kids got spanked. But spanking fell out of favor when I
was a young adult (the age when I would have had kids, if I had...). Now,
most crime is committed by males between the ages of 15 and 35. If you
compare the numbers in jails and prisons when I (and my compadres ) were in
our "peak crime-committing" years and the prison population today, well,
you have to wonder...

Most crimes have always been committed by males between 15 and 35. Our
declining crime rate merely reflects our changing demographics.
Child-rearing norms and the posturing of politicians has little or
nothing to do with it. I have some family members who spanked their
kids, and others who didn't. But all were loving, responsible, mature,
well-educated parents, and their kids all turned out just fine.

Jeff

Jerry,

crime rate is lowest now in 20-30 years. If I find statiscics I'll post
a link. Jail population big is due to a increased population.
In any case we shouldn't attribute changes in crime rate to a single
factor( like spanking)

"Alex" writes:
Jerry,

crime rate is lowest now in 20-30 years. If I find statiscics I'll post
a link. Jail population big is due to a increased population.
In any case we shouldn't attribute changes in crime rate to a single
factor( like spanking)


Fairly reliable research has identified Roe v. Wade as a large
contributor to the decrease in the crime rate over the last
15 years or so.

http://www.prospect.org/print/V12/1/abramsky-s.html

"Alex" wrote in message
oups.com...
Jerry,

crime rate is lowest now in 20-30 years. If I find statiscics I'll post
a link. Jail population big is due to a increased population.
In any case we shouldn't attribute changes in crime rate to a single
factor( like spanking)


I agree that a number of factors are involved. And I didn't state that
there was a direct cause-effect. I simply said, "you have to wonder."

BUT, in the State of California (just as a simple example), the population
of the state approximately doubled from 1960 to 2000 (rough figures, about
15,000,000 to about 30,000,000). Meanwhile, the total number of inmates in
California prisons increased nearly ten-fold (again, rough figures, about
18,000 to about 160,000).

My point is that you can't exclude factors just because they don't match
your philosophy/politics.

Jerry

In article
,
says...

"Alex" wrote in message
oups.com...
Jerry,

crime rate is lowest now in 20-30 years. If I find statiscics I'll post
a link. Jail population big is due to a increased population.
In any case we shouldn't attribute changes in crime rate to a single
factor( like spanking)


I agree that a number of factors are involved. And I didn't state that
there was a direct cause-effect. I simply said, "you have to wonder."

BUT, in the State of California (just as a simple example), the population
of the state approximately doubled from 1960 to 2000 (rough figures, about
15,000,000 to about 30,000,000). Meanwhile, the total number of inmates in
California prisons increased nearly ten-fold (again, rough figures, about
18,000 to about 160,000).


"Three strikes and you're out" law.

Increased crowding leads to more opportunity and
stress-inspiration for crime.

More welfare ("Idle hands are the devil's workshop.")

Lots and lots more drugs, including the crack cocaine
epidemic starting in the late 80s. Leading to
increases in direct drug-crime, like sales/possession,
but also to increases in indirect drug-crime, like
muggings/burglaries/prostitution, etc, to get money for
dope.

I suspect that the drugs are the biggest factor.


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Lots and lots more drugs, including the crack cocaine
epidemic starting in the late 80s.

Really? Lots more drugs than in the 60's?

Too_Many_Tumors wrote:


http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051121/...E0BHNlYwN0bWE-


Spanking children fuels aggression, anxiety By Megan Rauscher

Children who are spanked when they misbehave are more likely to be
anxious and aggressive than children who are disciplined in nonphysical
ways, research shows. This is true even if spanking is the "cultural
norm."

I've seen just exactly the opposite with children who *do not* get spanked,
but instead get some stupid whiny sounding, petite, soft-spoken and gentle
'talking to'. Said children have already become nuisances to the parent(s),
the school(s), the neighborhood, and is/are bullies, not liked well by others
the same age. One of the little ****s in question is my nephew. His mother
has never laid a hand on him and he runs her life almost literally and does
what he wants to when he wants to...all starting at about 8 years old and is
now 14 or 15 (I don't give a **** about the little ****, nor does anyone else
in the family after all the crap he's pulled over the years and his mother
snubbing her nose at *US* for trying to discipline him when we were
unfortunate enough to have had to babysit the little ****er). Dad and I have
a running bet on the age he'll be when he first gets thrown in jail.


--
Ragheads - worthless pig **** eaters..
Illegal aliens - just as worthless as ragheads.

There is a chance that your nephew has a chronic adjustment disorder.
Symptoms includes depression(very common) and in some cases conduct disturbances(less
common)
Here is a link to description in plain English:
http://www.athealth.com/Consumer/dis...djustment.html

Most people recover completely from adjustment disorders, especially if they had no
previous history of mental problems, and have a stable home life with strong social
support. Recommend forms of psychosocial treatment for this disorder includes individual
psychotherapy, family therapy and behavior therapy.

Stop calling him little **** and persuade his mother to seek professional help.
BTW If it is adjustment disorder any kind of punishment only amplifies behavioral problems.





Tamper proof wrote:
Too_Many_Tumors wrote:



http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051121/...E0BHNlYwN0bWE-


Spanking children fuels aggression, anxiety By Megan Rauscher

Children who are spanked when they misbehave are more likely to be
anxious and aggressive than children who are disciplined in nonphysical
ways, research shows. This is true even if spanking is the "cultural
norm."


I've seen just exactly the opposite with children who *do not* get spanked,
but instead get some stupid whiny sounding, petite, soft-spoken and gentle
'talking to'. Said children have already become nuisances to the parent(s),
the school(s), the neighborhood, and is/are bullies, not liked well by others
the same age. One of the little ****s in question is my nephew. His mother
has never laid a hand on him and he runs her life almost literally and does
what he wants to when he wants to...all starting at about 8 years old and is
now 14 or 15 (I don't give a **** about the little ****, nor does anyone else
in the family after all the crap he's pulled over the years and his mother
snubbing her nose at *US* for trying to discipline him when we were
unfortunate enough to have had to babysit the little ****er). Dad and I have
a running bet on the age he'll be when he first gets thrown in jail.

"Alex" wrote in message
et...
There is a chance that your nephew has a chronic adjustment disorder.
Symptoms includes depression(very common) and in some cases conduct
disturbances(less
common)


That sounds to me like the tendency of our country to try and use medicine
instead of good parenting. I suspect the majority of kids diagnosed with ADD
or some other disorder don't need medicine nearly as much as they need to be
taught how to behave. Granted, I'm not a doctor or trained professional,
simply an opinionated observer.

"Dave Lyon" wrote in message
news:5aGgf.592141$xm3.82696@attbi_s21...

"Alex" wrote in message
et...
There is a chance that your nephew has a chronic adjustment disorder.
Symptoms includes depression(very common) and in some cases conduct
disturbances(less
common)


That sounds to me like the tendency of our country to try and use medicine
instead of good parenting. I suspect the majority of kids diagnosed with
ADD
or some other disorder don't need medicine nearly as much as they need to
be
taught how to behave. Granted, I'm not a doctor or trained professional,
simply an opinionated observer.


Who speaks for me as well.

Harold

Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:

"Dave Lyon"

"Alex"

There is a chance that your nephew has a chronic adjustment disorder.
Symptoms includes depression(very common) and in some cases conduct
disturbances(less common)

That sounds to me like the tendency of our country to try and use medicine
instead of good parenting. I suspect the majority of kids diagnosed with
ADD
or some other disorder don't need medicine nearly as much as they need to
be
taught how to behave. Granted, I'm not a doctor or trained professional,
simply an opinionated observer.

Who speaks for me as well.
Harold

How about that? A few other folks that think exactly as I do. It's a
little (maybe more than a little) disturbing the way miss-behavior
gets treated as a medical problem.
...lew...

.. One of the little ****s in question is my nephew. His mother
has never laid a hand on him and he runs her life almost literally and
does
what he wants to when he wants to...all starting at about 8 years old and
is
now 14 or 15 (I don't give a **** about the little ****, nor does anyone
else
in the family after all the crap he's pulled over the years and his mother
snubbing her nose at *US* for trying to discipline him when we were
unfortunate enough to have had to babysit the little ****er). Dad and I
have
a running bet on the age he'll be when he first gets thrown in jail.


--

I'm curious if his mother attempts discipline of any kind?

In article .com,
Too_Many_Tools says...

I am interested in hearing your opinion on this subject.

Raising kids is a battle of wits.

If you have to hit them to enforce your will, this
is a tacit admission that you're not smart enough,
and that you've lost the battle. Most kids are
pretty smart and pick up on this right away.

This is not to say that parents don't blow a gasket
now and then and swat their offspring. I think it
should be reserved for those few times when the kid
does something really dangerous like running into
the street.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

jim rozen wrote:
In article .com,
Too_Many_Tools says...

I am interested in hearing your opinion on this subject.

Raising kids is a battle of wits.

If you have to hit them to enforce your will, this
is a tacit admission that you're not smart enough,
and that you've lost the battle. Most kids are
pretty smart and pick up on this right away.

This is not to say that parents don't blow a gasket
now and then and swat their offspring.

Which is, of course, exactly the wrong reason and the wrong time to
spank your kids. Nevertheless, most kids survive such "traumatic
events" just fine.

I think it
should be reserved for those few times when the kid
does something really dangerous like running into
the street.

Agreed.

Jeff

In article ,
jim rozen wrote:

Raising kids is a battle of wits.

If you have to hit them to enforce your will, this
is a tacit admission that you're not smart enough,
and that you've lost the battle. Most kids are
pretty smart and pick up on this right away.

In my opinion, I spank to get the kid's attention, not as punishment.
My usual tool is a flyswatter, NEVER my hand, and missing the kid is
about 95% as effective as hitting them as long as you hit something
noisy nearby.

The actual punishment is restricting their liberty or toys.

--
Free men own guns, slaves don't
www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5357/

"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message oups.com...
I am interested in hearing your opinion on this subject.

TMT

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051121/...E0BHNlYwN0bWE-


Spanking children fuels aggression, anxiety By Megan Rauscher

damn, I thought this was going to be a fun subject, like spanking semi-clad women...

snip

damn, I thought this was going to be a fun subject, like spanking
semi-clad women...



Wishful thinking!
T

On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 16:32:09 -0000, "tg"
wrote:


"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message oups.com...
I am interested in hearing your opinion on this subject.

TMT

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051121/...E0BHNlYwN0bWE-


Spanking children fuels aggression, anxiety By Megan Rauscher

damn, I thought this was going to be a fun subject, like spanking semi-clad women...

You must be from the UK :-)

wrote in message ...
On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 16:32:09 -0000, "tg"
wrote:


"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message oups.com...
I am interested in hearing your opinion on this subject.

TMT

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051121/...E0BHNlYwN0bWE-


Spanking children fuels aggression, anxiety By Megan Rauscher

damn, I thought this was going to be a fun subject, like spanking semi-clad women...

You must be from the UK :-)

correct sir
I applaud your intuition.

In article ,
says...

"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message oups.com...
I am interested in hearing your opinion on this subject.

TMT

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051121/...E0BHNlYwN0bWE-


Spanking children fuels aggression, anxiety By Megan Rauscher

damn, I thought this was going to be a fun subject, like spanking semi-clad women...


Would you settle for spanking Tim May?


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