I am interested in hearing your opinion on this subject.

TMT

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051121/...E0BHNlYwN0bWE-


Spanking children fuels aggression, anxiety By Megan Rauscher

Children who are spanked when they misbehave are more likely to be
anxious and aggressive than children who are disciplined in nonphysical
ways, research shows. This is true even if spanking is the "cultural
norm."

Whether parents should spank their children or use other forms of
physical discipline is controversial. Some experts argue that children
should not be spanked when they act out citing evidence that it leads
to more, rather than fewer, behavior problems and it could escalate
into physical abuse. There are data to support this argument.

Other experts, however, argue that the effects of spanking and physical
discipline might depend on the characteristics of the child and family
and the circumstances in which it is used.

To investigate the latter theory, researchers from questioned 336
mothers and their children in China, India, Italy, Kenya, the
Philippines, and Thailand about cultural norms surrounding use of
physical discipline and how it affected their children's behavior.

Jennifer Lansford, a research scientist from the Center for Child and
Family Policy at Duke University spearheaded the survey. She told
Reuters Health that "across the six countries studied, children who
were physically disciplined more frequently were more aggressive and
anxious than were children who were physically disciplined less
frequently."

"However, in countries where the use of physical discipline was more
common, being physically disciplined more frequently was not related as
strongly to aggression and anxiety as it was in countries where
physical discipline was less frequently used," she said.

Not surprisingly, in Thailand, a country where peace-promoting Buddhist
teachings predominant, moms were least likely to spank their children
or use other forms of physical discipline.

In Kenya, on the other hand, where use of physical discipline is common
and considered normal for the most part, moms were most likely to spank
or engage in similar disciplinary tactics. In a study conducted in
Kenya in 2003, 57 percent of grandmothers reported caning, pinching,
slapping, tying with a rope, hitting, beating, and kicking as forms of
discipline they had used on their grandchildren.

One question the findings raise, according to Lansford, is whether
being physically disciplined more frequently causes an increase in
aggression and anxiety or whether children who are already aggressive
and anxious are simply physically disciplined more often. "On the basis
of other work conducted in the United States, the answer is probably
some of each," Lansford said.

"Another question is whether physical discipline is appropriate in this
day and age, regardless of how accepted it may be," she added.

SOURCE: Child Development, November/December 2005

Too_Many_Tools wrote:

snip

To investigate the latter theory, researchers from questioned 336
mothers and their children in China, India, Italy, Kenya, the
Philippines, and Thailand about cultural norms surrounding use of
physical discipline and how it affected their children's behavior.

Anthropolotical studies have shown that if you just ASK this, people in
just about every culture will lie and say they don't use corporal
punishment. It is an excellent way to produce bogus data for liberal
propaganda, however.

Corporal punishment of misbehaving children is pan human.

Jennifer Lansford, a research scientist from the Center for Child and
Family Policy at Duke University spearheaded the survey.


I wouldn't call anyone a scientist who uses methods that are known to
produce bogus results. They are propagandists.

Ignoramus14135 wrote:
This post really qualifies as a troll and is off topic for all three
newsgroups.

I think that you need some spankin'!

By the way, lack of parental attention (that is, actually spending
time with kids) is the main reason why children misbehave. At least
small children.

Also, what is misbehavior to adults is often completely normal
exploring behavior on the part of kids, who sometimes wonder just what
the **** are they bring beaten for.


I guess you can call it a never-ending-debate on balance. Whip the kid
to learn in the short-term, but he or she becomes aggressive in nature
later, regardless of what they were being punished for. Ask me, I was
a real bully, fought alot, and nearly ended up in jail even in adult
life. Why? Because my Dad was an NCO who whipped the **** out of me
for the smallest things. Now he says he regrets he was like that.

"E.B." wrote in message
oups.com...

Ignoramus14135 wrote:
This post really qualifies as a troll and is off topic for all three
newsgroups.

I think that you need some spankin'!

By the way, lack of parental attention (that is, actually spending
time with kids) is the main reason why children misbehave. At least
small children.

Also, what is misbehavior to adults is often completely normal
exploring behavior on the part of kids, who sometimes wonder just what
the **** are they bring beaten for.


I guess you can call it a never-ending-debate on balance. Whip the kid
to learn in the short-term, but he or she becomes aggressive in nature
later, regardless of what they were being punished for. Ask me, I was
a real bully, fought alot, and nearly ended up in jail even in adult
life. Why? Because my Dad was an NCO who whipped the **** out of me
for the smallest things. Now he says he regrets he was like that.


I think one problem is that some parents don't have the time, the balls or
both when it comes to following through with consequences. I have a relative
who's famous for this: "J, if you don't stop that......", and she never
finishes the sentence. The kid's never seen a consequence his entire life,
and it shows.

"Spehro Pefhany" wrote in message
...

That's the problem with statistical analysis as opposed to using the
scientifically sound experiments with control groups etc. It is a heck
of a lot cheaper and easier to use statistics, but you can only show
correlation. Correlation does not prove causality.

You should hang around rec.boats a few times a week and listen to the
******s who say "Well...since we invaded Iraq, we haven't had any terrorist
attacks here, so the war must be working." It's enough to make you puke.

On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 11:08:50 -0800, the renowned Stuart Grey
wrote:

Too_Many_Tools wrote:

snip

To investigate the latter theory, researchers from questioned 336
mothers and their children in China, India, Italy, Kenya, the
Philippines, and Thailand about cultural norms surrounding use of
physical discipline and how it affected their children's behavior.

Anthropolotical studies have shown that if you just ASK this, people in
just about every culture will lie and say they don't use corporal
punishment. It is an excellent way to produce bogus data for liberal
propaganda, however.

Corporal punishment of misbehaving children is pan human.

Jennifer Lansford, a research scientist from the Center for Child and
Family Policy at Duke University spearheaded the survey.


I wouldn't call anyone a scientist who uses methods that are known to
produce bogus results. They are propagandists.


Does it prove that kids that are spanked act up more than kids who are
not, or that kids who act like little monsters are more likely to get
their bums paddled?

That's the problem with statistical analysis as opposed to using the
scientifically sound experiments with control groups etc. It is a heck
of a lot cheaper and easier to use statistics, but you can only show
correlation. Correlation does not prove causality.


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

OK, I haven't been fished lately.


After having 4 kids, I think I've learned a little about discipline. My
first two received spankings as needed. They are very well adjusted, good
kids (13 and 15 years old). My third child did not respond to spanking at
all. In fact, I'm at wits end trying to come up with a suitable punishment
for her (9 years old). I believe that I'm starting to learn that she
responds much better to positive reinforcement. My forth child has nearly
never been spanked. Usually a stern lecture is all he needs (6 years old).

Here's what I've learned about child discipline. The first thing to learn is
all kids are different. Sending my 6 year old to his room is a much better
punishment than sending my 15 year old to hers. While I believe that
spanking is an appropriate tool to use, it is not a cure all. Each child
should have discipline tailored to their personalities.
The most important thing that I've learned is that consistency is the key.
If you say a child will be punished for a particular action, make sure they
are punished for that action every time. Multiple warnings are not being
kind to your children, they are confusing to them.


When we had our first child EVERYBODY was giving us advice on the proper way
to raise them. Often that advice contradicted what somebody else said. We
nearly went crazy trying to figure out who to listen to until we came up
with this simple formula.
1) If the advice giver doesn't have children, throw out their advice
regardless of how much education they have.
2) If they have kids, but you don't like the way their children behave,
throw out their advice too.
3) If they have kids, their kids are well behaved, but not fully grown,
consider what they have to say.
4) If they have grown children, and you respect those children, don't wait
for advice, seek it out from those people.


"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
oups.com...
I am interested in hearing your opinion on this subject.

TMT


http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051121/...E0BHNlYwN0bWE-


Spanking children fuels aggression, anxiety By Megan Rauscher

Children who are spanked when they misbehave are more likely to be
anxious and aggressive than children who are disciplined in nonphysical
ways, research shows. This is true even if spanking is the "cultural
norm."

Whether parents should spank their children or use other forms of
physical discipline is controversial. Some experts argue that children
should not be spanked when they act out citing evidence that it leads
to more, rather than fewer, behavior problems and it could escalate
into physical abuse. There are data to support this argument.

Other experts, however, argue that the effects of spanking and physical
discipline might depend on the characteristics of the child and family
and the circumstances in which it is used.

To investigate the latter theory, researchers from questioned 336
mothers and their children in China, India, Italy, Kenya, the
Philippines, and Thailand about cultural norms surrounding use of
physical discipline and how it affected their children's behavior.

Jennifer Lansford, a research scientist from the Center for Child and
Family Policy at Duke University spearheaded the survey. She told
Reuters Health that "across the six countries studied, children who
were physically disciplined more frequently were more aggressive and
anxious than were children who were physically disciplined less
frequently."

"However, in countries where the use of physical discipline was more
common, being physically disciplined more frequently was not related as
strongly to aggression and anxiety as it was in countries where
physical discipline was less frequently used," she said.

Not surprisingly, in Thailand, a country where peace-promoting Buddhist
teachings predominant, moms were least likely to spank their children
or use other forms of physical discipline.

In Kenya, on the other hand, where use of physical discipline is common
and considered normal for the most part, moms were most likely to spank
or engage in similar disciplinary tactics. In a study conducted in
Kenya in 2003, 57 percent of grandmothers reported caning, pinching,
slapping, tying with a rope, hitting, beating, and kicking as forms of
discipline they had used on their grandchildren.

One question the findings raise, according to Lansford, is whether
being physically disciplined more frequently causes an increase in
aggression and anxiety or whether children who are already aggressive
and anxious are simply physically disciplined more often. "On the basis
of other work conducted in the United States, the answer is probably
some of each," Lansford said.

"Another question is whether physical discipline is appropriate in this
day and age, regardless of how accepted it may be," she added.

SOURCE: Child Development, November/December 2005

I know it is off topic...and that is why it is marked OT.

I posted it to the groups I did because, believe it or not, many of
those who haunt these groups actually have opinions I respect. ;)

I would tend to agree with another poster...one size doesn't fit all
when it comes to applying discipline to kids.


TMT

"until we came up with this simple formula.
1) If the advice giver doesn't have children, throw out their advice
regardless of how much education they have.
2) If they have kids, but you don't like the way their children behave,

throw out their advice too.
3) If they have kids, their kids are well behaved, but not fully grown,

consider what they have to say.
4) If they have grown children, and you respect those children, don't
wait
for advice, seek it out from those people. "

Good approach....

TMT

Doug Kanter wrote:

"Spehro Pefhany" wrote in message
.. .



That's the problem with statistical analysis as opposed to using the
scientifically sound experiments with control groups etc. It is a heck
of a lot cheaper and easier to use statistics, but you can only show
correlation. Correlation does not prove causality.



You should hang around rec.boats a few times a week and listen to the
******s who say "Well...since we invaded Iraq, we haven't had any terrorist
attacks here, so the war must be working." It's enough to make you puke.




Not meaning to spur debate in a dumb direction here but simply follow up
with "fewer people were killed in the US by terrorist attacks during
Clinton's watch so it PROVES Clinton did a better job of protecting the
US from terrorist than Bush and Billions on homeland security". It
makes as much sense as the argument that's making you fill the bucket

Koz (who is perfectly happy with those who argue opposite of his
left-wing pinko-commie leanings but HATES letting argumentative fallcies
slide)

"Koz" wrote in message
.. .


Doug Kanter wrote:

"Spehro Pefhany" wrote in message
. ..


That's the problem with statistical analysis as opposed to using the
scientifically sound experiments with control groups etc. It is a heck
of a lot cheaper and easier to use statistics, but you can only show
correlation. Correlation does not prove causality.


You should hang around rec.boats a few times a week and listen to the
******s who say "Well...since we invaded Iraq, we haven't had any
terrorist attacks here, so the war must be working." It's enough to make
you puke.


Not meaning to spur debate in a dumb direction here but simply follow up
with "fewer people were killed in the US by terrorist attacks during
Clinton's watch so it PROVES Clinton did a better job of protecting the US
from terrorist than Bush and Billions on homeland security". It makes as
much sense as the argument that's making you fill the bucket

Koz (who is perfectly happy with those who argue opposite of his left-wing
pinko-commie leanings but HATES letting argumentative fallcies slide)


Also during Clinton's reign, I didn't smash my toe on the coffee table, not
even once, so obviously, we were safer. On the other hand, I sliced the
phuque out of my finger last week with a scary-sharp kitchen knife.

Good advice with that formula....I hate it when people who don't have kids
tell me how I should raise mine....lol

as for spanking when they do something really bad yes they do get spanked
and we explain to them why we are spanking them....most the time they get
sent to their room though....

My siblings and I did have physical disciplene growing up and we are not
really agressive or anxious. A study like that can not show conclusive
results because it is based on what people say and people do lie and 'more
frequently' and 'less frequently' are very subjective terms and vary widely
in interpatation.

Deborah

"Dave Lyon" wrote in message
newsIpgf.590447$xm3.493640@attbi_s21...
OK, I haven't been fished lately.


After having 4 kids, I think I've learned a little about discipline. My
first two received spankings as needed. They are very well adjusted, good
kids (13 and 15 years old). My third child did not respond to spanking at
all. In fact, I'm at wits end trying to come up with a suitable punishment
for her (9 years old). I believe that I'm starting to learn that she
responds much better to positive reinforcement. My forth child has nearly
never been spanked. Usually a stern lecture is all he needs (6 years old).

Here's what I've learned about child discipline. The first thing to learn
is
all kids are different. Sending my 6 year old to his room is a much better
punishment than sending my 15 year old to hers. While I believe that
spanking is an appropriate tool to use, it is not a cure all. Each child
should have discipline tailored to their personalities.
The most important thing that I've learned is that consistency is the key.
If you say a child will be punished for a particular action, make sure
they
are punished for that action every time. Multiple warnings are not being
kind to your children, they are confusing to them.


When we had our first child EVERYBODY was giving us advice on the proper
way
to raise them. Often that advice contradicted what somebody else said. We
nearly went crazy trying to figure out who to listen to until we came up
with this simple formula.
1) If the advice giver doesn't have children, throw out their advice
regardless of how much education they have.
2) If they have kids, but you don't like the way their children behave,
throw out their advice too.
3) If they have kids, their kids are well behaved, but not fully grown,
consider what they have to say.
4) If they have grown children, and you respect those children, don't wait
for advice, seek it out from those people.

E.B. wrote:
Ignoramus14135 wrote:

This post really qualifies as a troll and is off topic for all three
newsgroups.

I think that you need some spankin'!

By the way, lack of parental attention (that is, actually spending
time with kids) is the main reason why children misbehave. At least
small children.

Also, what is misbehavior to adults is often completely normal
exploring behavior on the part of kids, who sometimes wonder just what
the **** are they bring beaten for.



I guess you can call it a never-ending-debate on balance. Whip the kid
to learn in the short-term, but he or she becomes aggressive in nature
later, regardless of what they were being punished for. Ask me, I was
a real bully, fought alot, and nearly ended up in jail even in adult
life. Why? Because my Dad was an NCO who whipped the **** out of me
for the smallest things. Now he says he regrets he was like that.

Note that there is a difference between using spanking occasionally as
one of many disciplinary tools, done without anger in appropriate
circumstances, and whipping a child for the smallest things. I only got
spanked for things that were intentionally mean or personally dangerous,
and I can almost pass for normal today. ;-)

Jeff

"Jeff McCann" wrote in message
ink.net...
E.B. wrote:
Ignoramus14135 wrote:

This post really qualifies as a troll and is off topic for all three
newsgroups.

I think that you need some spankin'!

By the way, lack of parental attention (that is, actually spending
time with kids) is the main reason why children misbehave. At least
small children.

Also, what is misbehavior to adults is often completely normal
exploring behavior on the part of kids, who sometimes wonder just what
the **** are they bring beaten for.



I guess you can call it a never-ending-debate on balance. Whip the kid
to learn in the short-term, but he or she becomes aggressive in nature
later, regardless of what they were being punished for. Ask me, I was
a real bully, fought alot, and nearly ended up in jail even in adult
life. Why? Because my Dad was an NCO who whipped the **** out of me
for the smallest things. Now he says he regrets he was like that.

Note that there is a difference between using spanking occasionally as one
of many disciplinary tools, done without anger in appropriate
circumstances, and whipping a child for the smallest things. I only got
spanked for things that were intentionally mean or personally dangerous,
and I can almost pass for normal today. ;-)

Jeff

.....except for that twitch, and the 5000 rounds of ammo in your closet,
"just in case". :-)

Are we talking "regular" kids, or kids that wind up turning out like Harold?
----------------------------
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll
"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
oups.com...
I am interested in hearing your opinion on this subject.

TMT

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051121/...E0BHNlYwN0bWE-


Spanking children fuels aggression, anxiety By Megan Rauscher

Children who are spanked when they misbehave are more likely to be
anxious and aggressive than children who are disciplined in nonphysical
ways, research shows. This is true even if spanking is the "cultural
norm."

Whether parents should spank their children or use other forms of
physical discipline is controversial. Some experts argue that children
should not be spanked when they act out citing evidence that it leads
to more, rather than fewer, behavior problems and it could escalate
into physical abuse. There are data to support this argument.

Other experts, however, argue that the effects of spanking and physical
discipline might depend on the characteristics of the child and family
and the circumstances in which it is used.

To investigate the latter theory, researchers from questioned 336
mothers and their children in China, India, Italy, Kenya, the
Philippines, and Thailand about cultural norms surrounding use of
physical discipline and how it affected their children's behavior.

Jennifer Lansford, a research scientist from the Center for Child and
Family Policy at Duke University spearheaded the survey. She told
Reuters Health that "across the six countries studied, children who
were physically disciplined more frequently were more aggressive and
anxious than were children who were physically disciplined less
frequently."

"However, in countries where the use of physical discipline was more
common, being physically disciplined more frequently was not related as
strongly to aggression and anxiety as it was in countries where
physical discipline was less frequently used," she said.

Not surprisingly, in Thailand, a country where peace-promoting Buddhist
teachings predominant, moms were least likely to spank their children
or use other forms of physical discipline.

In Kenya, on the other hand, where use of physical discipline is common
and considered normal for the most part, moms were most likely to spank
or engage in similar disciplinary tactics. In a study conducted in
Kenya in 2003, 57 percent of grandmothers reported caning, pinching,
slapping, tying with a rope, hitting, beating, and kicking as forms of
discipline they had used on their grandchildren.

One question the findings raise, according to Lansford, is whether
being physically disciplined more frequently causes an increase in
aggression and anxiety or whether children who are already aggressive
and anxious are simply physically disciplined more often. "On the basis
of other work conducted in the United States, the answer is probably
some of each," Lansford said.

"Another question is whether physical discipline is appropriate in this
day and age, regardless of how accepted it may be," she added.

SOURCE: Child Development, November/December 2005

Amen, Jeff
I was spanked as a child , but was WARNED that it would happen if I
continued disobeying my folks, and they followed through with the threat
even if they didn't really want to. I believe it taught me that there are
consequences for my actions. And, looking back, I KNOW I respected them more
than I would have if all they ever did was threaten to punish me and never
did. (This is a problem with a lot of today's kids) I raise mine kids the
same way. Spanking is NOT done out of anger, and if you threaten it and
follow through with it when needed, kids will know you mean business and
generally will correct their behavior without having to resort to paddling.
(which, by the way I DO NOT consider corporal punishment) I WILL NOT tell
a child numerous times to stop with the bad behavior. First time, a polite
"stop that". Second time "stop that or I'll paddle your behind". Third
time...well, it generally doesn't go that far, but I am I man of my
word.... --dave




"Jeff McCann" wrote in message
ink.net...
E.B. wrote:
Ignoramus14135 wrote:

This post really qualifies as a troll and is off topic for all three
newsgroups.

I think that you need some spankin'!

By the way, lack of parental attention (that is, actually spending
time with kids) is the main reason why children misbehave. At least
small children.

Also, what is misbehavior to adults is often completely normal
exploring behavior on the part of kids, who sometimes wonder just what
the **** are they bring beaten for.



I guess you can call it a never-ending-debate on balance. Whip the kid
to learn in the short-term, but he or she becomes aggressive in nature
later, regardless of what they were being punished for. Ask me, I was
a real bully, fought alot, and nearly ended up in jail even in adult
life. Why? Because my Dad was an NCO who whipped the **** out of me
for the smallest things. Now he says he regrets he was like that.

Note that there is a difference between using spanking occasionally as one
of many disciplinary tools, done without anger in appropriate
circumstances, and whipping a child for the smallest things. I only got
spanked for things that were intentionally mean or personally dangerous,
and I can almost pass for normal today. ;-)

Jeff

"Dave Jackson" wrote in message

I was spanked as a child , but was WARNED that it would happen if I
continued disobeying my folks, and they followed through with the threat
even if they didn't really want to. I believe it taught me that there are
consequences for my actions. And, looking back, I KNOW I respected them
more
than I would have if all they ever did was threaten to punish me and never
did. (This is a problem with a lot of today's kids) I raise mine kids the
same way. Spanking is NOT done out of anger, and if you threaten it and
follow through with it when needed, kids will know you mean business and
generally will correct their behavior without having to resort to
paddling.
(which, by the way I DO NOT consider corporal punishment) I WILL NOT
tell
a child numerous times to stop with the bad behavior. First time, a
polite
"stop that". Second time "stop that or I'll paddle your behind". Third
time...well, it generally doesn't go that far, but I am I man of my
word.... --dave

Bingo ... too bad there's not more parents with that attitude, and uncommon
sense, in this day and age. The concept is time honored simplicity when
training animals ... discipline/reward is only effective as the immediate
consequence of an undesirable/desirable action, respectively.

You smack a horse/dog/animal, or a kid, without the culprit knowing what it
is they're getting whacked for, and you get a renegade.

All my dad had to do (after that first initiation), was reach for his belt
buckle ... like Pavlov's dog we knew kids immediately what NOT to do.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/06/05

On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 17:17:36 -0600, "Swingman"
wrote:

"Dave Jackson" wrote in message

I was spanked as a child , but was WARNED that it would happen if I
continued disobeying my folks, and they followed through with the threat
even if they didn't really want to. I believe it taught me that there are
consequences for my actions. And, looking back, I KNOW I respected them
more
than I would have if all they ever did was threaten to punish me and never
did. (This is a problem with a lot of today's kids) I raise mine kids the
same way. Spanking is NOT done out of anger, and if you threaten it and
follow through with it when needed, kids will know you mean business and
generally will correct their behavior without having to resort to
paddling.
(which, by the way I DO NOT consider corporal punishment) I WILL NOT
tell
a child numerous times to stop with the bad behavior. First time, a
polite
"stop that". Second time "stop that or I'll paddle your behind". Third
time...well, it generally doesn't go that far, but I am I man of my
word.... --dave

Bingo ... too bad there's not more parents with that attitude, and uncommon
sense, in this day and age. The concept is time honored simplicity when
training animals ... discipline/reward is only effective as the immediate
consequence of an undesirable/desirable action, respectively.

You smack a horse/dog/animal, or a kid, without the culprit knowing what it
is they're getting whacked for, and you get a renegade.

All my dad had to do (after that first initiation), was reach for his belt
buckle ... like Pavlov's dog we knew kids immediately what NOT to do.

One might hope that the adults who advocate hitting children
have the opportunity to be hit by someone five times their
own weight.

Now that would be a lesson...

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

One might hope that the adults who advocate hitting children
have the opportunity to be hit by someone five times their
own weight.

Now that would be a lesson...

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Just out of curiosity, how many kids do you have, and how do they act?

"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
oups.com...
I am interested in hearing your opinion on this subject.

TMT


http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051121/...dc&printer=1;_
ylt=Asb2X4U9cR199hYC.3SIFvsR.3QA;_ylu=X3oDMTA3MXN1 bHE0BHNlYwN0bWE-


Spanking children fuels aggression, anxiety By Megan Rauscher

snip

Just my two cents worth. I don't have kids and wouldn't presume to tell
parents what to do, but I am capable of observing when what parents do
doesn't seem to work.

When I was a kid, kids got spanked. But spanking fell out of favor when I
was a young adult (the age when I would have had kids, if I had...). Now,
most crime is committed by males between the ages of 15 and 35. If you
compare the numbers in jails and prisons when I (and my compadres ) were in
our "peak crime-committing" years and the prison population today, well,
you have to wonder...

Jerry

In article .com,
Too_Many_Tools says...

I am interested in hearing your opinion on this subject.

Raising kids is a battle of wits.

If you have to hit them to enforce your will, this
is a tacit admission that you're not smart enough,
and that you've lost the battle. Most kids are
pretty smart and pick up on this right away.

This is not to say that parents don't blow a gasket
now and then and swat their offspring. I think it
should be reserved for those few times when the kid
does something really dangerous like running into
the street.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

"Jerry Foster" wrote:
Just my two cents worth. I don't have kids and wouldn't presume to tell
parents what to do, but I am capable of observing when what parents do
doesn't seem to work.

When I was a kid, kids got spanked. But spanking fell out of favor when I
was a young adult (the age when I would have had kids, if I had...). Now,
most crime is committed by males between the ages of 15 and 35. If you
compare the numbers in jails and prisons when I (and my compadres ) were
in
our "peak crime-committing" years and the prison population today, well,
you have to wonder...

When I got spanked as a child, it wasn't the physical pain that hurt, it was
knowing that I messed up badly enough to warrant getting turned up over the
knee that hurt. The knowing that I had stepped so far out of the bounds of
behavior that I was upside down being hit on the ass is a powerful thing,
and it is that knowing that some children need to experience, if only a few
times.

Consider it the "instant karma" approach. When it is necessary, it should
be used, and not disregarded as cruel.

Jon

Too_Many_Tumors wrote:


http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051121/...E0BHNlYwN0bWE-


Spanking children fuels aggression, anxiety By Megan Rauscher

Children who are spanked when they misbehave are more likely to be
anxious and aggressive than children who are disciplined in nonphysical
ways, research shows. This is true even if spanking is the "cultural
norm."

I've seen just exactly the opposite with children who *do not* get spanked,
but instead get some stupid whiny sounding, petite, soft-spoken and gentle
'talking to'. Said children have already become nuisances to the parent(s),
the school(s), the neighborhood, and is/are bullies, not liked well by others
the same age. One of the little ****s in question is my nephew. His mother
has never laid a hand on him and he runs her life almost literally and does
what he wants to when he wants to...all starting at about 8 years old and is
now 14 or 15 (I don't give a **** about the little ****, nor does anyone else
in the family after all the crap he's pulled over the years and his mother
snubbing her nose at *US* for trying to discipline him when we were
unfortunate enough to have had to babysit the little ****er). Dad and I have
a running bet on the age he'll be when he first gets thrown in jail.


--
Ragheads - worthless pig **** eaters..
Illegal aliens - just as worthless as ragheads.

In article , Proctologically Violated©® says...

Are we talking "regular" kids, or kids that wind up turning out like Harold?

Well that was gratuitous. He hasn't even commented on this
thread. Plonk


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 00:37:05 GMT, "Dave Lyon"
wrote:




One might hope that the adults who advocate hitting children
have the opportunity to be hit by someone five times their
own weight.

Now that would be a lesson...

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Just out of curiosity, how many kids do you have, and how do they act?


One... He's six, and is a joy. He behaves as we would expect
a healthy child of his age to act, but is disciplined,
understands what is right and wrong, and is a happy, well
adjusted kid.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 20:50:43 -0500, Kenneth
wrote:

On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 00:37:05 GMT, "Dave Lyon"
wrote:




One might hope that the adults who advocate hitting children
have the opportunity to be hit by someone five times their
own weight.

Now that would be a lesson...

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Just out of curiosity, how many kids do you have, and how do they act?


One... He's six, and is a joy. He behaves as we would expect
a healthy child of his age to act, but is disciplined,
understands what is right and wrong, and is a happy, well
adjusted kid.

All the best,

Now that's special a perfect father to a perfect son.
So just what and the hell is a "well adjusted kid"? Adjusted to What?
Adjusted to You? Adjusted to the weather? Adjusted to the new dog?
You have a six year old boy who is well adjusted, knows right from
wrong, and is happy. I guess your job is done, time to send him off to
college.

There is a chance that your nephew has a chronic adjustment disorder.
Symptoms includes depression(very common) and in some cases conduct disturbances(less
common)
Here is a link to description in plain English:
http://www.athealth.com/Consumer/dis...djustment.html

Most people recover completely from adjustment disorders, especially if they had no
previous history of mental problems, and have a stable home life with strong social
support. Recommend forms of psychosocial treatment for this disorder includes individual
psychotherapy, family therapy and behavior therapy.

Stop calling him little **** and persuade his mother to seek professional help.
BTW If it is adjustment disorder any kind of punishment only amplifies behavioral problems.





Tamper proof wrote:
Too_Many_Tumors wrote:



http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051121/...E0BHNlYwN0bWE-


Spanking children fuels aggression, anxiety By Megan Rauscher

Children who are spanked when they misbehave are more likely to be
anxious and aggressive than children who are disciplined in nonphysical
ways, research shows. This is true even if spanking is the "cultural
norm."


I've seen just exactly the opposite with children who *do not* get spanked,
but instead get some stupid whiny sounding, petite, soft-spoken and gentle
'talking to'. Said children have already become nuisances to the parent(s),
the school(s), the neighborhood, and is/are bullies, not liked well by others
the same age. One of the little ****s in question is my nephew. His mother
has never laid a hand on him and he runs her life almost literally and does
what he wants to when he wants to...all starting at about 8 years old and is
now 14 or 15 (I don't give a **** about the little ****, nor does anyone else
in the family after all the crap he's pulled over the years and his mother
snubbing her nose at *US* for trying to discipline him when we were
unfortunate enough to have had to babysit the little ****er). Dad and I have
a running bet on the age he'll be when he first gets thrown in jail.

wrote:
On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 20:50:43 -0500, Kenneth
wrote:


On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 00:37:05 GMT, "Dave Lyon"
wrote:



One might hope that the adults who advocate hitting children
have the opportunity to be hit by someone five times their
own weight.

Now that would be a lesson...

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Just out of curiosity, how many kids do you have, and how do they act?


One... He's six, and is a joy. He behaves as we would expect
a healthy child of his age to act, but is disciplined,
understands what is right and wrong, and is a happy, well
adjusted kid.

All the best,


Now that's special a perfect father to a perfect son.
So just what and the hell is a "well adjusted kid"? Adjusted to What?
Adjusted to You? Adjusted to the weather? Adjusted to the new dog?
You have a six year old boy who is well adjusted, knows right from
wrong, and is happy. I guess your job is done, time to send him off to
college.



"well adjusted" is a right term and used in a right content.

Here is an article suggesting that if your kid needs spanking there is a chance that
origin of that behavior is YOUR behavior:
http://www.brightsurf.com/news/headl...rticleID=20942

Warm, nurturing parents have well-adjusted adolescents
September 14, 2005

Although preadolescents and adolescents might think their parents hold nosway over
them, a study published in the September/October issue of the journal Child Development
finds just the opposite – early parenting style makes a big difference in how a child
turns out.

Researchers from Arizona State University in Tempe evaluated 186 adolescents three times
over a six-year period, once every two years from the time the children were about 9 to
about age 13. They used parent and teacher reports to evaluate how well adjusted the
children were in terms of aggression, antisocial and delinquent behavior,and how well
the children were able to “self-regulate,” i.e., inhibit their behavior when necessary
and control their emotions and behavior.

The researchers assessed the children’s self-regulation by measuring their persistence
in completing a frustrating task (rather than cheating or giving up), along with reports
from parents and teachers. Additionally, they observed the parents’ (mostly mothers’)
warmth and positive emotions as they interacted with their child during each of the
three assessments.

The researchers found that parenting, youths’ self-regulation, and youths’ adjustment
were generally related to each other within and across time. Additionally, they found
evidence that parents who interacted warmly and positively with their children at the
youngest age (the first assessment) had children who were relatively self-regulated two
years later, and, in turn, exhibited fewer problem behaviors at the finalassessment.

“Our results are consistent with the view that parenting affects children’s
self-regulation and their overall adjustment,” said study author Nancy Eisenberg, Ph.D.,
Regents’ professor of psychology at Arizona State University in Tempe.

“Thus, the quality of parent-child interactions in childhood seems to foreshadow whether
young adolescents experience behavioral problems in adolescence, and thisrelation
appears to be at least partly due to the fact that warm, positive parentshave children
who are well regulated,” she said.

“Because warm parenting seems to foster children’s self-regulation, it is likely to
contribute to youths’ positive functioning in a variety of areas.”



Society for Research in Child Development

Kenneth wrote:
On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 17:17:36 -0600, "Swingman"
wrote:
-------------------

One might hope that the adults who advocate hitting children
have the opportunity to be hit by someone five times their
own weight.

Now that would be a lesson...

If that truly is your position and experience, when the opportunity
arises to meet you and your misbehaving children I will politely
refuse.

technomaNge
--
I listen to Rush and Sean on
http://www.wabcradio.com/listenlive.asp
daily. You should try it.

Jerry Foster wrote:
"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
oups.com...
I am interested in hearing your opinion on this subject.

TMT


http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051121/...dc&printer=1;_
ylt=Asb2X4U9cR199hYC.3SIFvsR.3QA;_ylu=X3oDMTA3MXN1 bHE0BHNlYwN0bWE-


Spanking children fuels aggression, anxiety By Megan Rauscher

snip

Just my two cents worth. I don't have kids and wouldn't presume to tell
parents what to do, but I am capable of observing when what parents do
doesn't seem to work.

When I was a kid, kids got spanked. But spanking fell out of favor when I
was a young adult (the age when I would have had kids, if I had...). Now,
most crime is committed by males between the ages of 15 and 35. If you
compare the numbers in jails and prisons when I (and my compadres ) were in
our "peak crime-committing" years and the prison population today, well,
you have to wonder...

Most crimes have always been committed by males between 15 and 35. Our
declining crime rate merely reflects our changing demographics.
Child-rearing norms and the posturing of politicians has little or
nothing to do with it. I have some family members who spanked their
kids, and others who didn't. But all were loving, responsible, mature,
well-educated parents, and their kids all turned out just fine.

Jeff

Jerry Foster wrote:
"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
oups.com...
I am interested in hearing your opinion on this subject.

TMT


http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051121/...dc&printer=1;_
ylt=Asb2X4U9cR199hYC.3SIFvsR.3QA;_ylu=X3oDMTA3MXN1 bHE0BHNlYwN0bWE-


Spanking children fuels aggression, anxiety By Megan Rauscher

snip

Just my two cents worth. I don't have kids and wouldn't presume to tell
parents what to do, but I am capable of observing when what parents do
doesn't seem to work.

When I was a kid, kids got spanked. But spanking fell out of favor when I
was a young adult (the age when I would have had kids, if I had...). Now,
most crime is committed by males between the ages of 15 and 35. If you
compare the numbers in jails and prisons when I (and my compadres ) were in
our "peak crime-committing" years and the prison population today, well,
you have to wonder...

Most crimes have always been committed by males between 15 and 35. Our
declining crime rate merely reflects our changing demographics.
Child-rearing norms and the posturing of politicians has little or
nothing to do with it. I have some family members who spanked their
kids, and others who didn't. But all were loving, responsible, mature,
well-educated parents, and their kids all turned out just fine.

Jeff

Jerry Foster wrote:
"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
oups.com...
I am interested in hearing your opinion on this subject.

TMT


http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051121/...dc&printer=1;_
ylt=Asb2X4U9cR199hYC.3SIFvsR.3QA;_ylu=X3oDMTA3MXN1 bHE0BHNlYwN0bWE-


Spanking children fuels aggression, anxiety By Megan Rauscher

snip

Just my two cents worth. I don't have kids and wouldn't presume to tell
parents what to do, but I am capable of observing when what parents do
doesn't seem to work.

When I was a kid, kids got spanked. But spanking fell out of favor when I
was a young adult (the age when I would have had kids, if I had...). Now,
most crime is committed by males between the ages of 15 and 35. If you
compare the numbers in jails and prisons when I (and my compadres ) were in
our "peak crime-committing" years and the prison population today, well,
you have to wonder...

Most crimes have always been committed by males between 15 and 35. Our
declining crime rate merely reflects our changing demographics.
Child-rearing norms and the posturing of politicians has little or
nothing to do with it. I have some family members who spanked their
kids, and others who didn't. But all were loving, responsible, mature,
well-educated parents, and their kids all turned out just fine.

Jeff

jim rozen wrote:
In article .com,
Too_Many_Tools says...

I am interested in hearing your opinion on this subject.

Raising kids is a battle of wits.

If you have to hit them to enforce your will, this
is a tacit admission that you're not smart enough,
and that you've lost the battle. Most kids are
pretty smart and pick up on this right away.

This is not to say that parents don't blow a gasket
now and then and swat their offspring.

Which is, of course, exactly the wrong reason and the wrong time to
spank your kids. Nevertheless, most kids survive such "traumatic
events" just fine.

I think it
should be reserved for those few times when the kid
does something really dangerous like running into
the street.

Agreed.

Jeff

"Dave Jackson" wrote in message
k.net...
Amen, Jeff
I was spanked as a child , but was WARNED that it would happen if I
continued disobeying my folks, and they followed through with the threat
even if they didn't really want to. I believe it taught me that there are
consequences for my actions. And, looking back, I KNOW I respected them
more
than I would have if all they ever did was threaten to punish me and never
did. (This is a problem with a lot of today's kids) I raise mine kids the
same way. Spanking is NOT done out of anger, and if you threaten it and
follow through with it when needed, kids will know you mean business and
generally will correct their behavior without having to resort to
paddling.
(which, by the way I DO NOT consider corporal punishment) I WILL NOT
tell
a child numerous times to stop with the bad behavior. First time, a
polite
"stop that". Second time "stop that or I'll paddle your behind". Third
time...well, it generally doesn't go that far, but I am I man of my
word.... --dave

As it should be! Congrats on using good judgment.

Harold

"Kenneth" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 17:17:36 -0600, "Swingman"
wrote:

"Dave Jackson" wrote in message

I was spanked as a child , but was WARNED that it would happen if I
continued disobeying my folks, and they followed through with the
threat
even if they didn't really want to. I believe it taught me that there
are
consequences for my actions. And, looking back, I KNOW I respected them
more
than I would have if all they ever did was threaten to punish me and
never
did. (This is a problem with a lot of today's kids) I raise mine kids
the
same way. Spanking is NOT done out of anger, and if you threaten it
and
follow through with it when needed, kids will know you mean business
and
generally will correct their behavior without having to resort to
paddling.
(which, by the way I DO NOT consider corporal punishment) I WILL NOT
tell
a child numerous times to stop with the bad behavior. First time, a
polite
"stop that". Second time "stop that or I'll paddle your behind". Third
time...well, it generally doesn't go that far, but I am I man of my
word.... --dave

Bingo ... too bad there's not more parents with that attitude, and
uncommon
sense, in this day and age. The concept is time honored simplicity when
training animals ... discipline/reward is only effective as the
immediate
consequence of an undesirable/desirable action, respectively.

You smack a horse/dog/animal, or a kid, without the culprit knowing what
it
is they're getting whacked for, and you get a renegade.

All my dad had to do (after that first initiation), was reach for his
belt
buckle ... like Pavlov's dog we knew kids immediately what NOT to do.

One might hope that the adults who advocate hitting children
have the opportunity to be hit by someone five times their
own weight.

Now that would be a lesson...

All the best,
--
Kenneth

Do you have any questions why so many of the children of today have no
manners? I know I don't have. (Questions, that is.)

No one suggested you have to beat a kid senseless. A couple slaps on the
ass does a world of good for kids that act up and won't listen to reason.

I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I'm up to my ears with kids that
mule and puke when in public, showing no respect for person or property.
Where the hell do you think that starts? Permissive parents that have
little to no interest in rearing children, permitting any kind of activity,
in fear they might screw up the kid's mind if he/she had to learn something
in the way of obedience and manners.

I'd suggest to you the parents of such children reap their reward when the
kids grow up and show their contempt for society, including their parents.
Why not? What were they taught?

Harold (who's all for a good spanking when it's warranted)

Harold,

what if you spanked a kid and he/she starts to behave even worse?
Never thought of that, ah?
You are a lucky parent if spanking works for your kid. Spanking DOESN'T WORK FOR ALL
kids. I suggest that you you listen to professionals and try to follow what they
recommend. If professional tells you not to spank then don't spank. Imagine a
psychologist coming up with "new" ways to machine steel or heat treat metal? Sounds
stupid, right? Do not try to invent something new in parenting or children psychology.
Your parenting baggage is full of stale myths.
As for kids around you that that misbehave...
here is bogus Socrat quote:
children today are tyrants. They contradict their parents, gobble
their food, and tyrannize their teachers.

"In fact no Greek writer or philosopher would denigrate the youth of his time
in such a manner; they were seen as the future and the hope of
civilization - an attitude perhaps we might adopt instead of today's
all too frequent and largely unfounded negativism."




Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:
"Kenneth" wrote in message
...

On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 17:17:36 -0600, "Swingman"
wrote:


"Dave Jackson" wrote in message


I was spanked as a child , but was WARNED that it would happen if I
continued disobeying my folks, and they followed through with the

threat

even if they didn't really want to. I believe it taught me that there

are

consequences for my actions. And, looking back, I KNOW I respected them

more

than I would have if all they ever did was threaten to punish me and

never

did. (This is a problem with a lot of today's kids) I raise mine kids

the

same way. Spanking is NOT done out of anger, and if you threaten it

and

follow through with it when needed, kids will know you mean business

and

generally will correct their behavior without having to resort to

paddling.

(which, by the way I DO NOT consider corporal punishment) I WILL NOT

tell

a child numerous times to stop with the bad behavior. First time, a

polite

"stop that". Second time "stop that or I'll paddle your behind". Third
time...well, it generally doesn't go that far, but I am I man of my
word.... --dave

Bingo ... too bad there's not more parents with that attitude, and

uncommon

sense, in this day and age. The concept is time honored simplicity when
training animals ... discipline/reward is only effective as the

immediate

consequence of an undesirable/desirable action, respectively.

You smack a horse/dog/animal, or a kid, without the culprit knowing what

it

is they're getting whacked for, and you get a renegade.

All my dad had to do (after that first initiation), was reach for his

belt

buckle ... like Pavlov's dog we knew kids immediately what NOT to do.

One might hope that the adults who advocate hitting children
have the opportunity to be hit by someone five times their
own weight.

Now that would be a lesson...

All the best,
--
Kenneth


Do you have any questions why so many of the children of today have no
manners? I know I don't have. (Questions, that is.)

No one suggested you have to beat a kid senseless. A couple slaps on the
ass does a world of good for kids that act up and won't listen to reason.

I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I'm up to my ears with kids that
mule and puke when in public, showing no respect for person or property.
Where the hell do you think that starts? Permissive parents that have
little to no interest in rearing children, permitting any kind of activity,
in fear they might screw up the kid's mind if he/she had to learn something
in the way of obedience and manners.

I'd suggest to you the parents of such children reap their reward when the
kids grow up and show their contempt for society, including their parents.
Why not? What were they taught?

Harold (who's all for a good spanking when it's warranted)

"Kenneth" wrote in message

One might hope that the adults who advocate hitting children
have the opportunity to be hit by someone five times their
own weight.

Now that would be a lesson...

Yep ... I agree. It's a damn shame there's not someone around that size to
whack all the misbehaving adults in this culture who make the rest suffer
from their lack of discipline as children.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/06/05

On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 06:10:52 -0600, "Swingman"
wrote:

"Kenneth" wrote in message

One might hope that the adults who advocate hitting children
have the opportunity to be hit by someone five times their
own weight.

Now that would be a lesson...

Yep ... I agree. It's a damn shame there's not someone around that size to
whack all the misbehaving adults in this culture who make the rest suffer
from their lack of discipline as children.

Hello again,

Your comment reveals the problem so very clearly that I
thought to respond:

We agree that disciplining children is extremely important
to their well being.

But you clearly equate "hitting" and "discipline."

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

In article ,
jim rozen wrote:

Raising kids is a battle of wits.

If you have to hit them to enforce your will, this
is a tacit admission that you're not smart enough,
and that you've lost the battle. Most kids are
pretty smart and pick up on this right away.

In my opinion, I spank to get the kid's attention, not as punishment.
My usual tool is a flyswatter, NEVER my hand, and missing the kid is
about 95% as effective as hitting them as long as you hit something
noisy nearby.

The actual punishment is restricting their liberty or toys.

--
Free men own guns, slaves don't
www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5357/

On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 22:42:10 -0800, with neither quill nor qualm,
"Harold and Susan Vordos" quickly quoth:

"Kenneth" wrote in message
.. .
One might hope that the adults who advocate hitting children
have the opportunity to be hit by someone five times their
own weight.

Now that would be a lesson...

Do you have any questions why so many of the children of today have no
manners? I know I don't have. (Questions, that is.)

Nor do I. I grew up next to a spankless family. The little boy was
so bad/acted up so loudly that Mom and Dad wouldn't allow him in our
house. They were friends with the parents, not the kids. Becky was my
age (teen at the time) and I believe was raised with spanking, but the
parents didn't spank Andrew, their son. I saw the window glass guys
coming often, so the kid (age 7 then) must have been throwing stuff
through them as well as screaming and pounding his fists and feet on
the floor. Nobody in the neighborhood had anything to do with Andrew,
and when I heard of Hurricane Andrew, I immediately thought of him.
Yeah, you can keep your kids raised without spanking, thanks.


No one suggested you have to beat a kid senseless. A couple slaps on the
ass does a world of good for kids that act up and won't listen to reason.

Right, no beating, just a proper hand to keep them in line. There's
"the look", "the whispered verbal warning", "the loud verbal warning"
and "the spanking hand", in that order. Kids raised without it turn
into criminals who think they can get away with anything, just as they
always have.


I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I'm up to my ears with kids that
mule and puke when in public, showing no respect for person or property.
Where the hell do you think that starts? Permissive parents that have
little to no interest in rearing children, permitting any kind of activity,
in fear they might screw up the kid's mind if he/she had to learn something
in the way of obedience and manners.

Ditto that in SPADES!


I'd suggest to you the parents of such children reap their reward when the
kids grow up and show their contempt for society, including their parents.
Why not? What were they taught?

Karma is karma. Ouch! (That's gonna hurt, Ken.)


Harold (who's all for a good spanking when it's warranted)

AFAIC, it's part of proper parenting. NO beating, belts, or canes.
But a hand (or thin switch) once or twice will do wonders. My most
memorable spanking was from Dad, when he asked me to go cut my own
switch. My friend and I had crossed under the fence at the edge of
the Air Base and were beyond the highway with our slingshots. My good
old friend sent a marble up in the air in an arc trying to hit a car
going 65 mph. He got the windshield but luckily, nobody got hurt.

He saw it coming and ran, I got caught first, and we both got hauled
up to the Air Police at the gate. I was later "saved" by Jeff's
admission of guilt, but we both embarrassed our fathers. I've been in
only one fight in my life and it was with Jeff the following year.
True to the morals lacking in that family, his brothers joined in
against me, (kneeling behind me so he could push me over them, etc.),
but I still won the fight.

I learned several great lessons from that episode of switch cutting
and I haven't made any more "friends" like Jeff since.

end note:
I wonder if security at Little Rock AFB ever got any better. We
traveled through OPEN 4' diameter concrete flood pipes to get off the
base for "hunting" in the forest beyond. There were simple 8' chain
link fences around the Base, rimmed with 3 layers of barbed wire, but
the flood control was wide open.

--
************************************************** *********
"Boy, I feel safer now that Martha Stewart is behind bars!
O.J. is walking around free, Osama Bin Laden too, but they
take the one woman in America willing to cook and clean
and work in the yard and haul her ass to jail."
--Tim Allen
************************************************** *********