In article ,
Ignoramus1487 wrote:

On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 21:05:36 GMT, Jeff McCann wrote:
Chuck Sherwood wrote:
The girl's brother, sister, and mother backed up her story and in the
end she was never charged.


The really sad part is that the mother continued to let it happen.
Why didn't she have the courage to stop the father?

Why wasn't she prosecuted as an accessory to capital sexual assault, or
something similar? She apparently failed to take steps necessary to
protect her daughter from serious harm.

That probably was before laws about child abuse/neglect took present
shape.

i

There was very little in the way of child abuse/neglect protection when
and where I grew up. Laws existed, but were often laxly enforced.

Hell, when my parents were trying to get a commission-paid trucking
terminal off the ground, I practically raised my sister. We were ten
years apart. My mother could check in several times a day because they
built the first office in the garage beside the house, but my baby
sister was my responsibility between times. (They did make sure I got
some breaks to go out and just be a kid.)

Nowadays, that would be child neglect, I suppose. It didn't hurt me
overmuch and my sister and I are very close ~40 years later. There
wasn't much resentment. We just did what had to be done to get out of
poverty after my dad got hurt and couldn't drive his truck any longer.

Must have worked. After a few years all the back bills were paid, we
owned our own house, and my dad's cars were Cadillacs when Cadillac was
still a respected make.

John Husvar wrote:
In article et,
Jeff McCann wrote:


Chuck Sherwood wrote:

The girl's brother, sister, and mother backed up her story and in the
end she was never charged.


The really sad part is that the mother continued to let it happen.
Why didn't she have the courage to stop the father?

Why wasn't she prosecuted as an accessory to capital sexual assault, or
something similar? She apparently failed to take steps necessary to
protect her daughter from serious harm.

Jeff


Sheesh, how would I know? I was 13-14? It was (good/bad) luck and
teenage busybodyism I found out as much as I did.

Got it. I meant the question to be rhetorical. Sorry.

(Pure speculation below)

Maybe the mother was beaten and browbeaten into outright submission.
Things were much different in the late 50s/early 60s in Steubenville.
There wasn't much "interference" with family doings in those days in
that place unless something like that happened. Even the police didn't
do much about domestic violence except maybe hit 'em with Disturbing the
Peace or somesuch.

Failed to take the steps? Certainly. But was she even psychologically
able to take the steps, given the near total domination her husband
exercised? Many women who were married in the 30s/40s were raised with
an attitude that the man of the house could do no wrong. He was
virtually a god in some societies. They didn't even have a phone and she
might have been terrified to leave the house without permission.

If the kids talked, they might have paid dearly for it. Father knows
best wasn't a Robert Young TV show to some older generation families.

I don't want to get into a ****ing match here, but that kind of attitude
prevailed far longer than we in this time might think possible.

I think you've probably hit the nail on the head. But in this more
"enlightened" era, we complain a lot about irresponsible kids.
Personally, I think that the root problem is irresponsible parents. So
I draw a pretty hard line when parents allow or cause their children to
come to harm, or cause harm to others, as a result of parental
negligence. That's not to say that I have no sympathy for battered
spouses, especially in a time before recent societal changes in
perspective, but letting your teenage daughter be repeatedly raped is
just beyond the pale, and should not be tolerated in a decent society.
Nor should we tolerate spousal abuse, but at least the abused spouse is,
presumably, an adult.

Jeff

Ignoramus1487 wrote:
On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 21:05:36 GMT, Jeff McCann wrote:

Chuck Sherwood wrote:

The girl's brother, sister, and mother backed up her story and in the
end she was never charged.


The really sad part is that the mother continued to let it happen.
Why didn't she have the courage to stop the father?

Why wasn't she prosecuted as an accessory to capital sexual assault, or
something similar? She apparently failed to take steps necessary to
protect her daughter from serious harm.


That probably was before laws about child abuse/neglect took present
shape.

Laws against rape and accessory to rape have been around for hundreds of
years, dating at least from English Common Law.

Jeff

On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 21:15:19 GMT, with neither quill nor qualm,
(Scott Lurndal) quickly quoth:

writes:


The reason for my question is, I stayed home alone at about the age of
7 or so, it was customary where I grew up. Nothing terribly bad
happened and it was not particularly challenging.

The only thing that I did that was wrong was melting a lot of lead
(maybe at age 11 or so), I enjoyed lead casting and my mom would not
allow me to do it (quite wisely). So I did it when no one was
home. That was not good for me, I suppose.

You are joking, I suppose.

(Why would you think he was joking, wood?)


When I was 11 I'd buy KNO3 and sulfer by the lb from the local
druggist. In those days, the pharmacist had barrels of
each in the basement. Add a little charcoal, voila!

Got my first rifle about then too.

Ditto here, but I think my grandfather's Winchester 22 was given
to me a bit earler than that. (9 rings a bell)


Times sure have changed.

Haven't they, though? Kids nowadays have weekly allowances higher than
I took a year to earn, and that with nearly NO responsibilities. Given
the rate of social and moral decay, we may all be offed (by the kids)
the second our bods hit the hospital. =:-0


--------------------------------------------------------------------
I sent in my $5, so * http://www.diversify.com/stees.html
why haven't I been 'saved'? * Graphic Design - Humorous T-shirts

wrote in message ...
On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 16:32:09 -0000, "tg"
wrote:


"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message oups.com...
I am interested in hearing your opinion on this subject.

TMT

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051121/...E0BHNlYwN0bWE-


Spanking children fuels aggression, anxiety By Megan Rauscher

damn, I thought this was going to be a fun subject, like spanking semi-clad women...

You must be from the UK :-)

correct sir
I applaud your intuition.

"Alex" wrote in message
oups.com...
Jerry,

crime rate is lowest now in 20-30 years. If I find statiscics I'll post
a link. Jail population big is due to a increased population.
In any case we shouldn't attribute changes in crime rate to a single
factor( like spanking)


I agree that a number of factors are involved. And I didn't state that
there was a direct cause-effect. I simply said, "you have to wonder."

BUT, in the State of California (just as a simple example), the population
of the state approximately doubled from 1960 to 2000 (rough figures, about
15,000,000 to about 30,000,000). Meanwhile, the total number of inmates in
California prisons increased nearly ten-fold (again, rough figures, about
18,000 to about 160,000).

My point is that you can't exclude factors just because they don't match
your philosophy/politics.

Jerry

When a child misbehaves, stick him in the corner.

Minor offense, he can sit facing outward.
Moderate offense, he stands with his nose in the corner.
Serious offense, he kneels with nose in the corner.

Only spanking offense: Leaving the corner when put in it for punishment.

How to administer spankings: 1) Never spank when your ****ed. 2) Put a
lot of drama into it, use fear and expectation more than pain. 3) Use a
softly rolled up newspaper, as it makes a lot of noise and doesn't sting
as much. The noise and the expectation of do the work for you. 4) The
newspaper trick almost always work. If not, then you have to escalate to
the bare hand. Never use belts, hotwheel tracks or such, as you can't
feel what your doing.

With any luck, after one or two spankings, you'll never have to do it
again and you can always use the corner. Of course, genetics give people
different dispositions. This technique may or may not work in your family.

In article
,
says...

"Alex" wrote in message
oups.com...
Jerry,

crime rate is lowest now in 20-30 years. If I find statiscics I'll post
a link. Jail population big is due to a increased population.
In any case we shouldn't attribute changes in crime rate to a single
factor( like spanking)


I agree that a number of factors are involved. And I didn't state that
there was a direct cause-effect. I simply said, "you have to wonder."

BUT, in the State of California (just as a simple example), the population
of the state approximately doubled from 1960 to 2000 (rough figures, about
15,000,000 to about 30,000,000). Meanwhile, the total number of inmates in
California prisons increased nearly ten-fold (again, rough figures, about
18,000 to about 160,000).


"Three strikes and you're out" law.

Increased crowding leads to more opportunity and
stress-inspiration for crime.

More welfare ("Idle hands are the devil's workshop.")

Lots and lots more drugs, including the crack cocaine
epidemic starting in the late 80s. Leading to
increases in direct drug-crime, like sales/possession,
but also to increases in indirect drug-crime, like
muggings/burglaries/prostitution, etc, to get money for
dope.

I suspect that the drugs are the biggest factor.


--
Get Credit Where Credit Is Due
http://www.cardreport.com/
Credit Tools, Reference, and Forum

In article ,
says...

"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message oups.com...
I am interested in hearing your opinion on this subject.

TMT

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051121/...E0BHNlYwN0bWE-


Spanking children fuels aggression, anxiety By Megan Rauscher

damn, I thought this was going to be a fun subject, like spanking semi-clad women...


Would you settle for spanking Tim May?


--
Get Credit Where Credit Is Due
http://www.cardreport.com/
Credit Tools, Reference, and Forum

"A lot of stuff in school... you don't appreciate 'til you get to be older,
you know, little things, like being spanked everyday by a middle aged
woman... Stuff you'd pay good money for later in life." -- Emo Philips

"Dave Lyon" wrote in message
news:QvGgf.592160$xm3.225156@attbi_s21...

"Swingman" wrote in message
...
"Kenneth" wrote in message

One might hope that the adults who advocate hitting children
have the opportunity to be hit by someone five times their
own weight.

Now that would be a lesson...

Yep ... I agree. It's a damn shame there's not someone around that size
to
whack all the misbehaving adults in this culture who make the rest suffer
from their lack of discipline as children.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/06/05



As long as he's acting in my best interest, and making sure I know why I'm
being punished, I'm not afraid of that 1000 lb gorilla. You can be he
wouldn't have to tell me something twice.


ok how small of a kid are we talking about? or is it how big of a person is
doing the spanking? 5 times their weight? must be a really big guy or really
small kid....

Deborah

lol I just want to know then who has perfect relations in any family? lol

Deborah

"Alex" wrote in message
oups.com...
Deborah ,

sorry, I should have been more clear what I meant. This article implies
that if you have "perfect" relations between your family members there
is a less likelihood of need to spank.

"Ignoramus1487" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 18:50:06 GMT, Doug Kanter
wrote:

"Ignoramus1487" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 18:27:39 GMT, Doug Kanter

wrote:

"Ignoramus1487" wrote in message
...
What is wrong about leaving a 8 year old child home alone, provided
that the child is reasonably responsible.

i


Do you have kids?

Yes, one. 4.5 yo.

i


Good. I assume you have the usual parental nightmares about what could
happen to a kid in a normal, well-maintained house, regardless of how
careful you are. Start writing them down. You'll have your answer.



The reason for my question is, I stayed home alone at about the age of
7 or so, it was customary where I grew up. Nothing terribly bad
happened and it was not particularly challenging.

The only thing that I did that was wrong was melting a lot of lead
(maybe at age 11 or so), I enjoyed lead casting and my mom would not
allow me to do it (quite wisely). So I did it when no one was
home. That was not good for me, I suppose.

i


It can be somewhat more serious, Iggy. My ex BOL and his wife left the
kids one night, when the oldest was capable of keeping watch properly.
They left a pan on the kitchen stove, resulting in a kitchen fire.
Everything turned out fine, but it could have turned out far differently.
I'm not convinced you need worry about the actions of most children, but
when something goes wrong, they often are not properly equipped, either
physically or mentally, to react in the proper way at younger ages. I
think I'd be more concerned about that than anything. Imagine the guilt
one would carry if a child was lost to having been left alone when too young
to make intelligent decisions and be able to act on them.

Harold

"John Husvar" wrote in message
...
snip---
Must have worked. After a few years all the back bills were paid, we
owned our own house,

Congrats on the success!

and my dad's cars were Cadillacs when Cadillac was
still a respected make.

Love that comment. What happened to Cadillac? I remember all too well
when they were respected.

Harold

"John Husvar" wrote in message
...
In article et,
Jeff McCann wrote:

Chuck Sherwood wrote:
The girl's brother, sister, and mother backed up her story and in the
end she was never charged.


The really sad part is that the mother continued to let it happen.
Why didn't she have the courage to stop the father?

Why wasn't she prosecuted as an accessory to capital sexual assault, or
something similar? She apparently failed to take steps necessary to
protect her daughter from serious harm.

Jeff

Sheesh, how would I know? I was 13-14? It was (good/bad) luck and
teenage busybodyism I found out as much as I did.

(Pure speculation below)

Maybe the mother was beaten and browbeaten into outright submission.
Things were much different in the late 50s/early 60s in Steubenville.
There wasn't much "interference" with family doings in those days in
that place unless something like that happened. Even the police didn't
do much about domestic violence except maybe hit 'em with Disturbing the
Peace or somesuch.

Failed to take the steps? Certainly. But was she even psychologically
able to take the steps, given the near total domination her husband
exercised? Many women who were married in the 30s/40s were raised with
an attitude that the man of the house could do no wrong. He was
virtually a god in some societies. They didn't even have a phone and she
might have been terrified to leave the house without permission.

If the kids talked, they might have paid dearly for it. Father knows
best wasn't a Robert Young TV show to some older generation families.

I don't want to get into a ****ing match here, but that kind of attitude
prevailed far longer than we in this time might think possible.

I agree.

Harold

In article WYLgf.593066$xm3.147384@attbi_s21,
says...

"Alex" wrote in message
oups.com...
Dave,

you kids are lucky to have such parents!


Thanks. I hope you're right. The bad part about parenting is that you really
don't know how good you've done until your kids are grown!


Not necessarily. I've encountered parents who did a
bad job in either direction.

One set was criminally abusive and neglectful. We're
talking violence as entertainment. They ended up with
seriously damaged young adult offspring. And yet were
convinced that they (the parents) were just sweet and
nice, and acted confused about why those nasty,
ungrateful brats turned out so pathetic in two cases,
and hateful/negative in the other case.

The other set was weak and spoiled their kid. Zero
discipline or enforcement of rules, limits, or
consideration for others. They ended up with a vicious
sociopath/habitual-criminal adult offspring. And yet
were convinced that they (the parents) were smart and
skilled, and acted confused about why the big, bad
society/other-people had caused their sweet baby to
have such conflicts.

Parents are accountable and responsible when they
produce nice, happy, well-behaved adult offspring. But
the accountability and responsibility disappears or
shifts when the ultimate parenting result (I.e. that
young adult) turns out negatively.


--
Get Credit Where Credit Is Due
http://www.cardreport.com/
Credit Tools, Reference, and Forum

"Dave Lyon" wrote in message
news:YoGgf.350854$084.302303@attbi_s22...
snip----

Good parenting is lots of hard work.

Yep! It is. And the parents should be consistent, and have a back bone.

Often otherwise
loving parents give up when they've had a hard day and they have to get up
from the couch once again to discipline junior for the 5th time that
evening.

5th time because they haven't taught the kid any manners, and the kid hasn't
ever had to pay a price. Interestingly, the day comes when he/she will.
Society, in general, has little tolerance for such people. Imagine the
rude awakening when a kid pulls the usual BS as a young adult and loses a
good job because the boss doesn't have to put up with it.


I hate it when I see a child like you're referring to in the store. It
makes
me want to walk over to the kid and give him a good swat, then smack the
parent for allowing it. It's not the kids fault for being a turd. It's the
parents.

I agree. Just yesterday, in K-Mart, where there's a Little Caesars Pizza
restaurant, I watched as a kid climbed over a railing time and again,
while two of his younger siblings were running around screaming, crawling
under the tables. The mother had five young ones with her, and all she
did was apologize for their behavior, never once attempting to discipline
them. At what point in life will these kids begin to understand that
there are boundaries?

Harold

"Swingman" wrote in message
...
"Kenneth" wrote in message

One might hope that the adults who advocate hitting children
have the opportunity to be hit by someone five times their
own weight.

Now that would be a lesson...

Yep ... I agree. It's a damn shame there's not someone around that size to
whack all the misbehaving adults in this culture who make the rest suffer
from their lack of discipline as children.

There appears to be no shortage of these folks, either. Is that what
we've become?

Harold

"Dave Lyon" wrote in message
news:5aGgf.592141$xm3.82696@attbi_s21...

"Alex" wrote in message
et...
There is a chance that your nephew has a chronic adjustment disorder.
Symptoms includes depression(very common) and in some cases conduct
disturbances(less
common)


That sounds to me like the tendency of our country to try and use medicine
instead of good parenting. I suspect the majority of kids diagnosed with
ADD
or some other disorder don't need medicine nearly as much as they need to
be
taught how to behave. Granted, I'm not a doctor or trained professional,
simply an opinionated observer.


Who speaks for me as well.

Harold

"Antipodean Bucket Farmer" wrote in message ...
In article ,
says...

damn, I thought this was going to be a fun subject, like spanking semi-clad women...

Would you settle for spanking Tim May?

no

In article 7fIgf.351064$084.30926@attbi_s22,
says...


I find generalizations such as "children whose parents are violent to
them behave better" to be not grounded in any facts and is rather
supported by wishful thinking.

i


There is a lot of intelligence in your post (including the part I snipped).

However, it appears as if you think spanking and violence are synonyms. They
are not.


Terminology is quite slippery on this subject.

Apparantly, the study cited in the first post of this
thread, relied upon asking parents to describe what
they had done to their children.

Also, people generally discussing this subject have
rose-coloured glasses on regarding either their own
actions, or the actions of others.

When I was growing up, my family used the term,
"spanking" to describe behaviour like beating a child
unconscious, for fun.

OTOH, I have encountered people who interpret
legitimate reference to "abuse" as merely indicating a
little hand-swat on the bum, when the child had
misbehaved. ("You're so immature for failing to feel
gratitude...")

As long as "spanking" isn't really violence (in your
mind), then it is reasonable for an employer who is
feeling stressed-out, to pull the nearest employee's
pants down, apply a belt until the little brat is
barely even capable of crawling away. After all, that
is a "spanking," in my experience, and thus isn't
really "violence," in your mind. So nothing bad
happening at all. A perfectly legitimate way for an
authoriTAH figure to remind everyone who's boss.

Wanna volunteer for some "not"-violence?


--
Get Credit Where Credit Is Due
http://www.cardreport.com/
Credit Tools, Reference, and Forum

In article et,
Jeff McCann wrote:


Sheesh, how would I know? I was 13-14? It was (good/bad) luck and
teenage busybodyism I found out as much as I did.

Got it. I meant the question to be rhetorical. Sorry.

Well, it really was a sensible question by today's standards. All of the
feminist movement wasn't bad, probably not even most of it.

I don't want to get into a ****ing match here, but that kind of attitude
prevailed far longer than we in this time might think possible.

I think you've probably hit the nail on the head. But in this more
"enlightened" era, we complain a lot about irresponsible kids.
Personally, I think that the root problem is irresponsible parents. So
I draw a pretty hard line when parents allow or cause their children to
come to harm, or cause harm to others, as a result of parental
negligence. That's not to say that I have no sympathy for battered
spouses, especially in a time before recent societal changes in
perspective, but letting your teenage daughter be repeatedly raped is
just beyond the pale, and should not be tolerated in a decent society.
Nor should we tolerate spousal abuse, but at least the abused spouse is,
presumably, an adult.


You're absolutely right about abuse being beyond the pale, for sure.
Even though they were highly fictionalized, The Burning Bed and like
films weren't too far off in describing how difficult it could be to get
official response to domestic violence.

As usual in the USA, we've let the pendulum swing farther than perhaps
might be appropriate. We seem to be a nation of extremes sometimes and
often lose sight of balance. Some places, it can be a veritable gauntlet
of officialdom to take your child to the Emergency Room for an injury.

Just one data point:

My son was a real, honest-to-God, ADHD kid. Ritalin actually helped him.
Once, he fell into a footer trench for an addition I was building onto
our house and badly bruised and cut his back about at the tailbone. Poor
kid hurt like hell and I was half scared he'd really hurt himself badly.

At the ER, I was separated from him and we both were "interviewed"
_before_ they would treat him. They eventually decided we were truthful
about the accident, but it was sticky for a while.

By the time they were done "investigating," I was livid and told them,
loudly, they could either get on the stick treating him or I was going
to start abusing somebody, but they'd be the victims. _Then_ my lawyer
would start in on them. Apparently that anger satisfied them I really
didn't hurt my kid and they got about business.

The security guard they had watching me while they treated him, however,
was a bit on the touchy side.

In article ,
"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote:

"John Husvar" wrote in message
...
snip---
Must have worked. After a few years all the back bills were paid, we
owned our own house,

Congrats on the success!

and my dad's cars were Cadillacs when Cadillac was
still a respected make.

Love that comment. What happened to Cadillac? I remember all too well
when they were respected.

Harold

I don't know what happened, but there's just something very, very wrong
about Cadillac and Lincoln pickup trucks and SUVs.

Every time I encounter one on the road, it somehow jars my sensibilities.

Lots and lots more drugs, including the crack cocaine
epidemic starting in the late 80s.

Really? Lots more drugs than in the 60's?

In article
,
lid says...
On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 17:09:56 GMT, Doug Kanter wrote:

"Ignoramus1487" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 16:34:14 GMT, Doug Kanter
wrote:
For some parents, the first response to misbehaving kids is a threat of
physical punishment, followed shortly thereafter by the actual deed. Do
you
think this is something all parents should consider, or is it possible
that
some parents are more capable of using words to get kids to understand
the
rules?

First, we have to understand that not all misbehavior is the same and
that it has causes. Often "misbehavior" is completely normal behavior
of the child who thinks that he is doing the right thing. Either
exploring or imitating adults.

For example, a boy is imitating mommy cooking and accidentally breaks
a glass.

Should he be violently beaten (spanked) for that? I think that it
would be quite stupid. All he needs is to be given a plastic cup.

Second cause of misbehavior is attention seeking. The remedy is not
violence against children, but actually paying them some attention
that they deserve.

The third cause is that they are tired or stressed out, and beating
them for being tired does not seem like a smart idea to me.

The third cause is that they learn that having tantrums and such helps
them get what they want. That is because parents taught them that it
is the case. The remedy is not punishing them but being firmer about
what's not allowed.

The tantrum thing is interesting. My ex-wife, a speech pathologist, has to
deal with little kids all day long. Her technique for tantrums worked
nicely: Quickly determine if there's a good reason for it (fatigue, problem
with sibling, etc). Usually, there's not. So, handle the kid as you would if
he were having a seizure. Put him somewhere safe and let the tantrum run its
course.

Later, she came across a fascinating article which suggested (per research)
that tantrums occur to some extent in all kids because a certain part of the
brain has not yet developed. Made sense.

Interesting. I know some adults whose brains did not develop the
anti-tantrum centers...


It is a combination defence/coercion mechanism.

"You're not giving me what I want, so I will throw a
tantrum, to wear you down and get you to follow orders
and hand it over."

"You are trying to have a discussion about something
that embarrasses me, or that challenges my
entitlement-attitude. So I will throw a screaming
tantrum, to wear you down and shut you up."

Some adults rely upon a form of tantrum called,
"Whiiiiinnnnninnnggggg." Poor me, poor me, I am being
soooo victimised by your refusal-to-give, or by your
scary-reality-discussion... Whinge, whinge, whinge, to
annoy you so much as to break your resistance to my
will."

Just like little child on the floor of a supermarket,
demanding candy.

OB Survivalism: Those dorks will suck up your
time/energy/resources, and even beat down your very
will to live, if you get too involved/attached.


--
Get Credit Where Credit Is Due
http://www.cardreport.com/
Credit Tools, Reference, and Forum

In article ,
Ignoramus1487 wrote:

On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 21:35:28 GMT, John Husvar wrote:
Hell, when my parents were trying to get a commission-paid trucking
terminal off the ground, I practically raised my sister. We were ten
years apart. My mother could check in several times a day because they
built the first office in the garage beside the house, but my baby
sister was my responsibility between times. (They did make sure I got
some breaks to go out and just be a kid.)

Nowadays, that would be child neglect, I suppose.

It would not be, I suppose, if you were a responsible young individual
above age when babysitting is allowed.


I was ten and she was less than a year when this all started. I'm not
sure of the "official right age" for babysitters. I was responsible
enough, apparently, for several years.

Of course, when I was at school, my mother had to take Sis to the office
with her, but I managed to take good care of her when both my parents
had to be working.

"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...

"Dave Lyon" wrote in message
news:YoGgf.350854$084.302303@attbi_s22...
snip----

Good parenting is lots of hard work.

Yep! It is. And the parents should be consistent, and have a back bone.



And that is what I think is the real answer to this debate! Kids don't need
more friends, that's not a parents job, they need parents that will stand up
and do the right thing even if it means the kids will be upset with them.
And, they need to do it every time!

Depending on the child, many different methods of parenting may work, but
you cannot substitute for being consistent.

In article ,
Stuart Grey wrote:

When a child misbehaves, stick him in the corner.

Minor offense, he can sit facing outward.
Moderate offense, he stands with his nose in the corner.
Serious offense, he kneels with nose in the corner.

Only spanking offense: Leaving the corner when put in it for punishment.

How to administer spankings: 1) Never spank when your ****ed. 2) Put a
lot of drama into it, use fear and expectation more than pain. 3) Use a
softly rolled up newspaper, as it makes a lot of noise and doesn't sting
as much. The noise and the expectation of do the work for you. 4) The
newspaper trick almost always work. If not, then you have to escalate to
the bare hand. Never use belts, hotwheel tracks or such, as you can't
feel what your doing.

With any luck, after one or two spankings, you'll never have to do it
again and you can always use the corner. Of course, genetics give people
different dispositions. This technique may or may not work in your family.

I have to disagree with the bare hand, even though it's readily
available for all occasions.

Everything else is spot on.

The kinetic energy of an adult's hand and arm can do unintended injury
to the lower spine, showing little evidence at first. Although you can
feel the force that way, it's not so accurate as one might think.

A light wooden spoon and a good wrist snap, or your newspaper, works as
well with lesser risk. Turning the spoon bowl toward the butt, makes a
very impressive sound too.

Usually the drama has as much effect as the actual spanking.

I remember, too, in school the embarrassment was far worse than the
"swat."

Strabo wrote:
In OT - Spanking...Should You or Shouldn't You? on Mon, 21
Nov 2005 14:47:35 -0500, by Spehro Pefhany, we read:


On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 11:08:50 -0800, the renowned Stuart Grey
wrote:


Too_Many_Tools wrote:

snip

Jennifer Lansford, a research scientist from the Center for Child and
Family Policy at Duke University spearheaded the survey.


I wouldn't call anyone a scientist who uses methods that are known to
produce bogus results. They are propagandists.


Does it prove that kids that are spanked act up more than kids who are
not, or that kids who act like little monsters are more likely to get
their bums paddled?

That's the problem with statistical analysis as opposed to using the
scientifically sound experiments with control groups etc. It is a heck
of a lot cheaper and easier to use statistics, but you can only show
correlation. Correlation does not prove causality.


Feminism, the core psychology of a new world socialism, isn't
concerned with facts or causality, only control.

True enough. The agenda of the communist is to bring down the decadent
capitalist west. Ensuring that children are not raised properly is part
of that effort; destroy the culture, and the people will fall.

To that end, they would fake the data, using known bogus techniques, so
as to discourage and eventually outlaw the proper raising of children.

Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:

I agree. Just yesterday, in K-Mart, where there's a Little Caesars Pizza
restaurant, I watched as a kid climbed over a railing time and again,
while two of his younger siblings were running around screaming, crawling
under the tables. The mother had five young ones with her, and all she
did was apologize for their behavior, never once attempting to discipline
them. At what point in life will these kids begin to understand that
there are boundaries?

Harold

When the store owner shoots one for taking money from the cash register,
somewhere around the teen years, I suspect.

"John Husvar" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote:

"John Husvar" wrote in message
...
snip---
Must have worked. After a few years all the back bills were paid, we
owned our own house,

Congrats on the success!

and my dad's cars were Cadillacs when Cadillac was
still a respected make.

Love that comment. What happened to Cadillac? I remember all too well
when they were respected.

Harold

I don't know what happened, but there's just something very, very wrong
about Cadillac and Lincoln pickup trucks and SUVs.

Every time I encounter one on the road, it somehow jars my sensibilities.

You're not going to complain about a Rolls Royce quadratrack, too, are you?
g

I think back to the days when Cadillac made V-12 & V-16 engines and turned
out cars that stood out from the pack, both in quality and design, and
wonder where they went wrong.

Harold

"Dave Lyon" wrote in message
news:Kd_gf.352672$084.38803@attbi_s22...

"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...

"Dave Lyon" wrote in message
news:YoGgf.350854$084.302303@attbi_s22...
snip----

Good parenting is lots of hard work.

Yep! It is. And the parents should be consistent, and have a back
bone.



And that is what I think is the real answer to this debate! Kids don't
need
more friends, that's not a parents job, they need parents that will stand
up
and do the right thing even if it means the kids will be upset with them.
And, they need to do it every time!

Depending on the child, many different methods of parenting may work, but
you cannot substitute for being consistent.



Exactly!

I watched with dismay as my brother didn't discipline his kids, even when
they deserved a serious spanking. Example: Ladies washing dishes at a
large gathering, his kids (two boys) outside with the garden hose, spraying
them through the open window. "Don't, son. Don't, son. Don't, son.
When three "Don't, son"s didn't work, he dropped the subject.

Sorry, that calls for some serious intervention, and consistency.

Harold

In article , Harold and Susan Vordos says...

Sorry, that calls for some serious intervention, and consistency.

Intervention doesn't have to be serious. But it *does* have
to be consistent. That's the key.

Kids need to know that if a parent says something's gonna
happen, if the parent says it's going to happen.

Every time a kid hears that something will, and it doesn't,
that's a behavior problem in the making.

Hence my wife's comment that when she was a kid, there was no
"wait till your father comes home" nonsense. You screwed up,
you got clobbered by mom, right on the spot.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:

"Dave Lyon"

"Alex"

There is a chance that your nephew has a chronic adjustment disorder.
Symptoms includes depression(very common) and in some cases conduct
disturbances(less common)

That sounds to me like the tendency of our country to try and use medicine
instead of good parenting. I suspect the majority of kids diagnosed with
ADD
or some other disorder don't need medicine nearly as much as they need to
be
taught how to behave. Granted, I'm not a doctor or trained professional,
simply an opinionated observer.

Who speaks for me as well.
Harold

How about that? A few other folks that think exactly as I do. It's a
little (maybe more than a little) disturbing the way miss-behavior
gets treated as a medical problem.
...lew...

Some moron wrote:

There is a chance that your nephew has a chronic adjustment disorder.
Symptoms includes depression(very common) and in some cases conduct
disturbances(less common)

There's also a chance that he is just a little putz being raised by a couple
of older putzes, and would benefit from opening a jar of WhupAss.

Steve

"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
In article , Harold and Susan Vordos says...

Sorry, that calls for some serious intervention, and consistency.

Intervention doesn't have to be serious. But it *does* have
to be consistent. That's the key.

Kids need to know that if a parent says something's gonna
happen, if the parent says it's going to happen.


Yeah, I think that's what I had in mind with what I said. Serious doesn't
mean you change position on the couch and ignore the problem at hand, it
gets your undivided attention and something changes, for the better, and
your butt doesn't see the couch again until that happens. If a spanking
(on the soft fleshy ass, where it stings good but doesn't break anything) is
a part of the punishment for not responding, so be it. That didn't
happen with my brother and his kids. You may conclude that my brother and
I are not much alike. You're right. I'm not convinced he knows the
difference between right or wrong, nor truth from fiction. It's hard to
believe that two such diametrically opposites came from the same parents.

Every time a kid hears that something will, and it doesn't,
that's a behavior problem in the making.

Hence my wife's comment that when she was a kid, there was no
"wait till your father comes home" nonsense. You screwed up,
you got clobbered by mom, right on the spot.

Jim

That may account for the monster I was as a kid. My mother often reminded
me of how I was going to *get it* when my dad got home. Some times she
was right. I ate soap (not my idea, but my mouth apparently needed
cleansing) and "enjoyed" various spanking as a kid-----which appeared to
have had little affect. Yet, I recall on three different occasions in
school where corporal punishment was administered on me---each, somehow,
strangely toning me down. I think it works. I gained one hell of a
lot of respect for each of the teachers once I had been squared away. And
I still remember.

Harold

In article , Harold and Susan Vordos says...

... Yet, I recall on three different occasions in
school where corporal punishment was administered on me---each, somehow,
strangely toning me down. I think it works. I gained one hell of a
lot of respect for each of the teachers once I had been squared away. And
I still remember.

I am of a different viewpoint on corporal punishment in schools though.

Again I rely on my mother-in-laws views he you can keep control
of an infinite number of kids, if you can control one without laying
a hand on them. Otherwise you are limited to controling *two* kids.

A teacher that has to hit a kid to make him behave is probably in the
wrong job.

Likewise you have a problem when the kids get bigger than the teachers.

There was a discussion of 'caning' a few years ago. Honestly I fail
to see the disciplinary benefits in a practice that would get the
person administering the punishment, hauled off by the state police.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
In article , Harold and Susan Vordos says...

... Yet, I recall on three different occasions in
school where corporal punishment was administered on me---each, somehow,
strangely toning me down. I think it works. I gained one hell of a
lot of respect for each of the teachers once I had been squared away.
And
I still remember.

I am of a different viewpoint on corporal punishment in schools though.

Again I rely on my mother-in-laws views he you can keep control
of an infinite number of kids, if you can control one without laying
a hand on them. Otherwise you are limited to controling *two* kids.

A teacher that has to hit a kid to make him behave is probably in the
wrong job.

Likewise you have a problem when the kids get bigger than the teachers.

There was a discussion of 'caning' a few years ago. Honestly I fail
to see the disciplinary benefits in a practice that would get the
person administering the punishment, hauled off by the state police.

Jim

While I have to agree in principle, in practice it was effective, but keep
in mind I was raised when young people were taught to respect others. It
goes without saying that in today's environment, it wouldn't work. Kids
know they can't be touched, so some act accordingly. Of course, that isn't
true in all situations. Some folks have done a great job with their kids,
who appear to display good manners and show respect for person and property.
We certainly would be remiss to bunch everyone together.

One of my experiences was in grade school, as I recall, 6th grade. I was
slapped when I sassed the teacher. We got along fine the rest of the year,
and I no longer made myself the class fool.

The second was in junior high, when I was paddled by the wood shop teacher,
who went on to become my teacher in high school in machine shop. You can
believe me when I tell you that getting swatted just once with the paddle
gave me a whole new meaning in life, at least where it came to dealing with
that particular teacher. I could have resisted the punishment, but all
that would have done is shift the emphasis to dealing with my father, who
was a strict, but fair, disciplinarian.

The third incident was just an exchange of words, when I walked into my
sophomore year of electricity class. I was known for my big mouth
(gee---what a surprise) and walked into the class shouting something, likely
not worth hearing, which was usually the case. The teacher immediately
addressed me---politely but firmly informing me that my behavior was not
acceptable. From that day forward I respected him---and went on to have
him for a class all three years of high school, which, for us, began in 10th
grade, not 9th.

All methods appeared to work with me, although I'm not convinced any of them
did when I made up my mind. I think it gets down to particular
circumstances.

One thing is sure. My father instilled in me a concept of right and
wrong, which is now very strong. Had he not done so, I might have turned
out like a few others here that appear to think it's acceptable to cheat,
steal and lie, as long as it is to my benefit. I strongly disagree with
that philosophy, and prefer I not be associated with such individuals.

By the way, you sound like you're doing a great job with your daughter, Jim.
I applaud you.

Harold

In article , Harold and Susan Vordos says...

The third incident was just an exchange of words, when I walked into my
sophomore year of electricity class. I was known for my big mouth
(gee---what a surprise) and walked into the class shouting something, likely
not worth hearing, which was usually the case. The teacher immediately
addressed me---politely but firmly informing me that my behavior was not
acceptable. From that day forward I respected him---and went on to have
him for a class all three years of high school, which, for us, began in 10th
grade, not 9th.

The verbal 'slap' then was just as effective as the physical one for
you then - that teacher did what the others did, but without having
to lay a finger on you. He could do it to *any* of the students in
the class at any time without having to run through the class doling
out blows.

Certainly you will say that the verbal rebuke meant somthing to you
because you respected him. This is true, but consider that by this
time if a student does *not* respect a teacher, will he do so after
being struck by them?

One thing is sure. My father instilled in me a concept of right and
wrong, which is now very strong.

And hence you were susceptible to the verbal disciplining that the
electronics shop teacher applied. There was probably no reason
for the others to resort to corporal punishment - they were simply
either 'having a bad day' or were otherwise unskilled at keeping
order. A good teacher can tell when a kid can be brought into line
with a talking to, or not. You could, those other teachers were
not skilled enough to realize it.

By the way, you sound like you're doing a great job with your daughter, Jim.

I'm honestly not sure if it's anything we're doing. I think she
just turned out that way by accident. But thank you.

One of the biggest worries I had about sending her to a catholic school
revolved around the punishment issues. Those fears were entirely
unfounded as corporal punishment has long been gone in NY state.
I'm not sure it really helped anyway, but what *did* make a difference
in a private school was the ability of the school to insist, in some
cases, that a particular student not come back there next year.

This happened a few times in the 8 years we were involved with that
place - there would be a notable behavior problem by one student or
another, and there would be multiple attempts by the staff and
parents to sort it out. After a couple of years though, the
administration would simply say 'look, no offense, but don't come
back next year.' Apparently the difference in classrom atmosphere
was remarkable. One single kid can bog down an entire class
and make learning so much harder for the other 29 kids, it is
really amazing. My daugher said the difference was like night and
day.

Also the number two string class cut-up often would take the
hint right after this happened....

Public schools cannot 'dis-invite' any students so the problem
kids stay in place.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

My basic rule was:

If the punishment was worse than the reasonably expected outcome of the
action,
over time, don't do it.

Example: child runs into street, spank. Child talks back, don't spank.

I'll post anecdotal results in 30 or 40 years.

Dan

--


"History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the
Party is always right."

"... by far the more important reason for the readjustment of the past is
the need to safeguard the infallibility of the Party. It is not merely that
speeches, statistics and records of every kind must be constantly brought up
to date in order to show that the predictions of the Party were in all cases
right. It is also that no change of doctrine or in political alignment can
ever be admitted. For to change one's mind, or even one's policy, is a
confession of weakness."

"It's a beautiful thing, the destruction of words."

- George Orwell, "1984"

"The Americans will always do the right thing, after they've exhausted all
the alternatives."

-Winston Churchill

"Throughout history, tyrants and would-be tyrants have always claimed that
murder is justified to serve their grand vision. And they end up alienating
decent people across the globe."

- George W. Bush, introspective

"Stuart Grey" wrote in message
news

When a child misbehaves, stick him in the corner.

Minor offense, he can sit facing outward.
Moderate offense, he stands with his nose in the corner.
Serious offense, he kneels with nose in the corner.

Only spanking offense: Leaving the corner when put in it for punishment.

How to administer spankings: 1) Never spank when your ****ed. 2) Put a
lot of drama into it, use fear and expectation more than pain. 3) Use a
softly rolled up newspaper, as it makes a lot of noise and doesn't sting
as much. The noise and the expectation of do the work for you. 4) The
newspaper trick almost always work. If not, then you have to escalate to
the bare hand. Never use belts, hotwheel tracks or such, as you can't
feel what your doing.

With any luck, after one or two spankings, you'll never have to do it
again and you can always use the corner. Of course, genetics give people
different dispositions. This technique may or may not work in your family.